Should Labour choose its leader the US way?
March 8th, 2006
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Michael Meacher blasts the Stephen Byers plan
A revolutionary new plan to change the way in which the Labour leader is elected is being proposed by the former minister, Stephen Byers.
According to the veteran MP, Michael Meacher in the Guardian this morning Labour’s NEC will discuss a document this month called the Party Renewal Project which, along with other proposals, sets out a revolutionary way of choosing the leader.
Instead of the current complex arrangement involving the trade unions, the parliamentary party and the membership Byers is suggesting that the election should be restricted to so-called party supporters “who would not have to pay any membership subscription and would enlist without any obligation whatsoever.”
Meacher goes on “..This is clearly intended to pave the way for American-style primaries. The implications are enormous. The party as a political education forum and a political pressure organisation would wither away. “Supporters” would be at the receiving end of email messages from the centre, but there would be no formal structure for joint discussion and decision-making. The primaries would be determined not by ideology and debate, but largely by name and face recognition, as in the US. Candidates would succeed not by representing broad strands of party opinion, but by press coverage and self-promotion through a well-oiled financial machine. The Murdoch press would be the winners, party members the losers. The cancer of the power of money in American politics would begin to appear in Britain too. There are other serious implications. There is no objection to Labour having registered supporters. The issue is about whether they should vote in a leadership election - they need not have any connection with the Labour party at all, either as members or voters or even genuine supporters. They could secretly be Tories, Liberal Democrats, communists, Greens, or whatever.
The idea, it seems, would be that ordinary voters would register in some was as party supporters and this would make them part of the Labour electorate. As a way of building up lists of supporters and creating an ongoing communication channel with them the Byers plan looks very interesting. But, as Meacher lucidly argues, there could be dangers and the winner could be the one with the greatest name recognition.
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We saw during the recent Tory and Lib Dem leadership contests how those describing themselves as “party supporters” can often have a very different view of the contenders than the party membership.
At one stage last November a Populus poll had David Davis beating David Cameron by 50-37% while surveys during the Lib Dem contest pointed to much greater support for Simon Hughes amongst supporters than what he achieved in last week’s ballot.
It is not clear whether, even if the plan was accepted, a new system could be in place to choose Tony Blair’s successor. But a Miliband-Brown contest along these lines would be fascinating and certainly make the leadership betting interesting.
Mike Smithson
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Primaries for selecting parliamentary candidates can work with the electoral cycle in the sense that there is a clear moment (the next general election) when that person can stand, and it is obvious that the appointment does not guarantee any automatic right to stand again next time. A party’s leadership, however, has no fixed time limit and is potentially at stake at any moment. Does a contest of this expense and complexity fit with that reality?
Labour would become the second party in Britain to seriously look at this option. At its Spring Conference almost a month ago, Adam Price MP and Plaid Cymru’s Director of Elections announced that Plaid was looking at introducing primaries for the selection of its leader(s).
This sounds a great idea from Byers. I’ll cancel my membership of the party and become a ’supporter’. Thirty six pounds saved, miniscule amount of influence retained (perhaps even increased) and the shame by association to Jowell/Byers is removed.
This would surely be the final break in the link between Labour and the unions. I don’t suppose Byers has said where he expects the money this would lose the party to be replaced from? The taxpayer? Members? Rich donors?
Also, it’s one thing electing a party leader in this way, but electing a Prime Minister this way could be a recipe for disaster. What if there was a hung parliament and the public foisted a leader on a party in government who didn’t command the respect of the parliamentary party (a la IDS) or if in government, couldn’t put together a coalition / maintain confidence. Of course, there is the possibility of that now but it would be greatly increased.
It is obvious that Mr Byers is finding the supply of ladies of mature years to ravish harder to come by these days and his mind is wandering.
the candidate with the most financial backing could spend a fortune on buying the leadership. another brilliant idea from byers. and WHY is milburn being mentioned EVER in connection with the Labour leadership. his so called leadership of the last election campaign was rubbish and he had to be bailed out and sidelined half way through the campaign. if you can’t run an election campaign against a pisspoor opposition, how are supposed to be a potential PM. he’s a very silly vain man.
If Labour went for primaries, what price “cuddly” Ken Livingstone as Labour leader?
OT (already and apologies for this) but I think Marcia refered to a BBC poll on renewable energy in a thread yesrterday. Page 17 makes interesting reading.
As the Herald suggests, this is also the nearest we’ve got to a political poll in Scotland for a while.
Ahhh, you mean Kongestion Kharge Ken?
If it goes US style, and the richest wins the primaries… how about Geoffrey Robinson for next leader?
Heard Nigel Evans on the Today programme, banging on about Jowell. He really is very boring and appears quite vindictive. But he is forensic in his searches for answers. He is the Tory Norman Baker. Parliament needs people like Nige and Norm.
“But a Miliband-Brown contest along these lines would be fascinating and certainly make the leadership betting interesting. ”
Has Miliband already a good name recognition (listed in the main article as one of the factors that could help in that type of contests)? I thought he wasn’t very famous yet (among the general public).
Byers was the man who couldn’t work out six times nine, when education secretary, nicht wahr? Obviously an intellectual heavyweight.
did nigel evans vote against the equal age of consent in 1994?
This is warmed-over Mandelsonism… people join political Parties as an act of ideological identification, whether in terms of economics or social class (in England), or for religious or ethnic reasons (Northern Ireland), or a mixture of both (Scotland, Wales).
The argument in favour (just to be :evil:) is that such identification in a shrunken world where the principal sources of political cleavage are race and religion (rather than class) is dangerously inappropriate as a qualification for selecting a political leader. Not that American experience suggests that “primaries” are much of a remedy.
And if anyone here thinks that large cheques from individuals don’t sustain constituency organisations in all parties, and that those cheques don’t influence policy already, well… actually I don’t think Peebies think that
The latest stuff on Jowell and the share dealings in the pub company look very serious - not quite insider trading but deeply inappropriate for a minister if proved correct. Odds on for the sack I would say, now.
14- bally eric. He voted both against reducing it to 16 years old and 18 years old.
17 - OK, so he’s a reactionary bigot. I did not say I liked his political views. But he’s got Jowell by the short and curlies.
18. I haven’t said anything. I just replied a question!
[.....................moderated...........................]
11.18.20 You say: “Parliament needs people like Nige and Norm,” presumably because you see merit in a people’s assembly that includes a range of virtues; in this case the virtue of persistence and forensic examination maintained despite being in a minority. Yet, you call one of them a hypocrite because he holds, and votes on, views that correspond to those of a large minority of the population. Do you want only those representatives who agree with the prevailing socio-political norms of the majority - if that is what they are?
20. He voted against it in 1998 too, but for it in 2000. He voted to get rid of Section 28 too.
21. Baskerville, I got the impression he was suggesting something else……
Primaries may work for candidate selection (the ‘open primary by public meeting’ certainly did in Warrington South, where claims that non-Tories would vote for the weakest Tory candidate were confounded by the selection of Fiona Bruce, widely agreed to be the most formidable candidate, who then registered a swing of 4% at the GE) but extending it to the leadership of a party seems to be a step too far.
when will Ming make other Shadow Cabinet appointments? Anything expected for today?
24. the 4% in Warrington South had more to due with Labour doing bad than the tory candidates doing well (she failed to increase tory %)
21 - are you talking to me or Bally Eric? I have not called Nigel Evans a hypocrite. Despite the fact that I disagree with some of their political views, I accept that Parliament needs people with forensic minds. Like Nigel.
“Do you want only those representatives who agree with the prevailing socio-political norms of the majority?” OF COURSE NOT!
17 - SBS - Why does voting against reducing the age of consent for homosexual relations make you a bigot? For all we know Mr Evans may have ideally wished to raise the age of heterosexual consent…
28. no, it was Simon Hughes who wanted to raise the heterosexual age of consent to 17.
28 - OK, your point in valid.
My point was meant to come across as “So what if he may be a reactionary bigot! Well done him for finding out what he has found out abour our Tess.” I was actually trying to say that Bally Eric’s question was not relevant.
Talking of age of consent, which countries in the EU15 (or 25 for that matter) still have unequal ages of consent? I believe Finland may be the only one in the 15.
How does a vote make someone a hyocrite or a bigot? Is there any evidence to support these verbal LibDem bar charts?
29 - Sorry, wasn’t meaning [...............moderated.............] to raise age of consent (I have no idea if he does). I was just trying to point out that it doesn’t make you a bigot to feel that 16 is too young.
Does Simon Hughes still support 17?
33. I think it was just a “compromise” position. He argued that people still go to school at 16.
He voted for 16 that day and the 17 years amendment wasn’t voted.
34 It’s a really weird suggestion when you can get married at 16…
It all sounds to me like Bally Eric fancies himself as a Peter Tatchell style ‘outer’. Very tiresome and wholly irrelevant to the Jowell story.
33. Anna, Italy has the age of consent at 14 and at the beginning of the last century it was at 12 (then raised at 14 for “corrupted” people and to 16 for “uncorrupted” ones during the fascism)
27-Did the majority really want to lower age of consent, repeal s28, etc? Or was it merely the majority of “opinion formers”, commentators, etc?
I am still of the opinion the majority of people don’t give a to$$ either way, and if pressed are more likely to hold “bigoted” as opposed to “enlightened” views.
35. Anna, Hughes’ explanation was this:
“Why do I favour 17 rather than 16 or 18? It is because some of us are nervous that 16 is too young. More important, we must take into account the fact that, in England and Wales, someone of 16 still has to go to school– he or she cannot leave until after their 16th birthday. At age 16, therefore, one is still under authority. It seems to me that the time at which to give young people the full rights of adults is the time at which they can make full choices about schooling, education, work, training and so on. That is when they reach the age of other entitlements.”
the following exchanges were more entertaining to be honest.
38. I suspect a majority would have wanted to keep section 28, or something like it. Less sure about the consent ages though.
37 We have lots of problems with 16 as the age of consent. The law doesn’t really know how to handle Romeo and Juliet senarios… What was the definition of “corrupted”?
40. IIRW there were polls indicating that people wanted to keep Section 28.
On the age of consent there were some polls indicating people against the reduction and some polls indicating people were for the reduction.
31. I think Finlad equalised it a couple of years ago.
fred, it is relevant unfortunately.[..............moderated.................]
39 Logically, from Hughes argument, A-level students and possibly members of the Armed forces should not considered capable of consent… What a daft agrument!
44 Ballyeric can we get this clear? Are you suggesting [..............moderated........]
[...........moderated..................]
[..............................moderated.............................]
Ok fine…[..................moderated.......................]
so perhaps we should drop it. and i apologise for bringing it up here.
50 No problem!
45. Anna, that point from Hughes was followed by Diane Abbott telling they could make love during school holidays and Tony Banks suggesting they could do it behind the bike sheds.
49. Anna, stop being so curious!
on a wider point, it’s a good thing, in my view anyway, that both section 28 and the gay age of consent have been ’settled’. ie a future tory govt would not over-turn either.
44. Infantile stuff. Jowell really is in trouble if this is the best you can do.
fred - read back, i said jowell should quit last week.
56. So this is just a personal innuendo then, without even a political point behind it? Not really what this site is about, IMHO. Go and find one of Tatchell’s fan sites instead.
57. or Matthew Parris’ fan sites…not the tory supporters are immune to outings
One of the big problems I would have with such a system is that it would encourage the growing trend in modern British politics of insulating a leader from the parliamentary party, diluting their capacity to force a change in the leadership.
Please be careful when making allegations that could be defamatory
Wonder if you shouldn’t delete the whole thread to be on the safe side? I have only just looked at the thread but it is absolutely obvious from the direction of the discussion what the moderated comments were about.
Jowell either knew nothing about her many mortgages,an enormous gift and all the other associated baggage and is too naive to be a cabinet minister,or she knew more than she is admitting,either way she is clearly unsuitable to be a cabinet minister.
Anyway if we can believe anything that she says,when she does finally resign it will be presumably to spend less time with her family.
oops, apologies.
60. I agree that it’s not the place for those allegations/suggestions made this morning.
But defamatory???? what’s defamotory? the hipocrisy allegation (made often here about many people and by many people- me included) or the other thing suggested? if it’s the second, it’s a bit “sad” that someone could still considering “defamatory” in the 21th century
For what it is worth here is my opinion on the Age of Consent issue:
I’m assuming that it exists to protect young people who are considered vulnerable and is set at a randon age that most people can agree on as being the point where the average youngster no longer needs protection. In reality of course this is a different age for all people (even adults with certain difficulties need protection). It also causes problems where 2 youngsters are concerned (where I assume most would agree there shouldn’t be a prosecution) and where a mature youngster and immature adult are concerned.
My view is the age of consent should be abolished altogether and be replaced by a ‘Responsible Adult’ protection whereby it would be illegal for an adult to have sexual relations with an under 18 where they have a role of responsiblity over that person eg Doctor & Patient, Teacher and Pupil, Scoutmaster and scout, etc. Possibly even Manager/Employer and Employee.
Sensible or crackpot idea?
64. Ah, I see what it could be defamatory now! there was a third thing suggested.
On the topic: there have been experiments like this at PPC selection level by the Tories - it has obvious advantages in making non-aligned local people feel part of the process. But I don’t think it’s a good idea - too easy to infiltrate, and as noted above tends to discourage people from actually joining.
On yesterday’s topic,
images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,275851,00.jpg
is worth looking at, since it gives details for all four leading figures, Blair, Brown, Cameron and Campbell. Campbell’s apparently low scores partly reflect a high DK factor, I’d think, though it doesn’t look as though he’s been an instant hit.
Brown’s generally favourable ratings conflict with the finding that the Tories would do better if he were leader so should be taken with caution. But it’s worth pointing out to those posters here who detest Blair and/or Brown how many people find them both likeable. We all tend to move in circles that agree with us, so it’s easy to think that everyone feels the same way.
Am I not correct in thinking that Mandy resigned for simply accepting a £300k loan from a mate? In comparison it’s remarkable that Jowell has yet to jump in front of a metaphorical bus.
64. I believe certain people in other centuries, such as the third BC, would not consider “it” defamatory either.
68 - Mandy also failed to disclose this existing loan on his mortgage application. This is an offence. His department was also investigating GR at the time. This was dodgy.
70 - OT again but amusing (if you find schoolboy humour amusing) nevertheless: ConservativeHome.com has a link to Amazon so you can by books on an affiliate basis.
Amazon are usually clever in that they group books according to interest and the host webpage will get recommendations directly from Amazon appropriate to the users of the host page.
This one seems to have slipped through the net though…
70. Indeed, it is dodgy, but he had distanced himself from that investigation, even if without informing anyone of his reason for doing so. Nevertheless, I consider a £300k “gift” somewhat more sinister than a £300k mortgage, especially when mixed with Jowell’s drinks deaalings (excuse the pun).
71 - PMSL.
Sorry, 71 wasn’t specicically meant for 70 - goodness knows why I added that in so apologies if any confusion caused.
Blair very rattled on the NHS at PMQ. Going catatonic with the usual lists of dodgy data.
65. Crackpot I’m afraid….
Actually age of consent/childhood sexuality is an issue on which I used to be liberal but have become much less so. It’s true that everyone is ready to begin “the wonderful journey of sex” at a different age… some are ready at 13. Some aren’t ready at 16; or 18; or 33. But law can’t work that way - lines have to be drawn. 16 is arbitary but so would 14 be. Your formulation of people in authority but no age of consent would mean that if I happened to meet an 8 year old walking down Piccadilly this afternoon, and she was terribly precocious, I could take her back to my set at the Albany and no-one would have any recourse - you can’t possibly believe that would be OK can you?
The courts can’t possibly deal with every case on the basis of having to decide whether consent was valid or not.
Ooohh! Sir Peter seemed to get under the Dear Leader’s skin with that one…
SBS in 31: “Talking of age of consent, which countries in the EU15 (or 25 for that matter) still have unequal ages of consent? I believe Finland may be the only one in the 15.”
Since 1999 the age of consent in Finland has been 16 for both hetero- and homosexuals. Before that it was 16 for heterosexuals and 18 for homosexuals.
70. I wonder why the mortgage lender didn’t prosecute Mandelson?
65 - I’m sure Gary Glitter would support such a change in the law.
Difficult as it is to be controversial today I have to bring to the sites notice some very serious matters :
1. There is now clear evidence that Andrea and the Miniature for Rutland have engaged in the most [......moderated......] activities that the NOTW will call this Sunday [.......moderated.......] and the pink hippo wasn’t happy either !!
2. David Cameron and Rik W [......moderated.......] and defect to the Liberal Democrats.
3. Alastair Matlock has accepted a pee[......moderated......] and a 17 year old go-go dancer called “Big Kath”.
4. In Torbay Marcus [......moderated.......] and called all Lib Dems [.......moderated.......] b*****ds and then flung his prized and cracked [......moderated......] and now has no night time facility.
5. A new recipe for qui[......moderated......] and Tabman threw his false beard and sand[......moderated......] with Norman Tebbit.
6. Jack W was found in company with [......moderated......] and nappies. He was later seen [......moderated......] with Vladimir Luxuria’s sequined dresses.
79 - I don’t think they really care if they get their money. In fairness to Mandy, he can hardly be the only person to be economical with the truth on a mortgage form - some of the lenders even encourage it!
82. Yes but not many people are ‘economical’ to the tune of 300 grand, are they? borrowing 5-10k for the deposit without telling them is one thing, a loan on that scale quite another.
81 -
Big Kath, is it? I hope she lives up to her name!
More Lib Dem Shadwow Cabinet appointments :
htpp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4785556.stm
Sorry:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4785556.stm
84 AHM. Alastair, I understand she has very big expectations.
83 - true. Had he missed a payment it would probably have been a different story.
The Chancellor has launched “youth opportunity cards” today - vouchers to spend in youth clubs, sports centres. Very sound as ever.
86 - Kelly and Willetts must be [……moderated……]ing themselves following that appointment.
Has Thurso been demoted from Scottish spokesman for supporting Nuclear Power?
90. Hilarious…one of the most important positions to be handled by an inarticulate airhead who will make Estelle Morris look like Einstein. Great start by Ming!
I hope that the Lib Dems are smart enough to put Teather in some kind of performing training. (Perhaps also Kramer to voice training?)
91 - They may take his spokesmanship but they’ll never take his dapper demeanour.
94 - I see Jack’s in drag again too: the things they get up to (sic) at these Jacobite conventions
Fortunately, the sheep made its excuses and left….
90 - Oatening?
[95] How old does a sheep have to be before you can [……moderated……] it?
[71] I must say I have rarely [……moderated……] quite so much as after [……moderated……] this it was absolutely [……moderated……] and now I need to go and change my [……moderated……]. Completely well targeted advertizing never seemed so [……moderated……]. :LOL:
97 - Surely ewe know better than ask a question like that
[99] Just because I lived in the Lake District for a few years and you didn’t… honestly, the old green eye…
97 - you can always claim you thought it was mutton dressed as lamb.
89. Maybe, Professor, you will volunteer to be the one who witholds the £25 from your keen young student because of his behaviour. Maybe you will join me on the doorstep in the current local elections and explain to council tax payers why their taxes are going up to pay for this ludicrous scheme - oh, yes, it’s because the government will not fully fund it. Maybe you will volunteer to decide what they can spend the vouchers on and where they can spend them. Maybe you will help local councillors and officials enforce the rules and stop a blackmarket in vouchers and receipts, as well as the inevitable intimidation of teachers and shopkeepers. Or maybe, you, like Santa Gord, will bask in a few naively positive headlines from the gullible BBC and then forget all about it when the bills start to roll in. Get Real.
89. Crack cocaine, 8 opportunity cards, heroin ,6. Diamond white a bargain at 1 opportunity card.
101 - Yeah, and that you were fleeced. Boom. Boom.
Are you still on ’sabbatical’?
104 - I am, John, but I have an interview back at our oily alma mater tomorrow afternoon. Are you suggesting my talents are wasted on weak one-liners?
94 Stephen B. Excellent picture of Viscount Thurso and his mother Margaret Viscountess Thurso, Chief of Clan Sinclair !!
The estimable Viscount has been appointed Plenipotentiary and Ambassador Extraordinary to the Jacobite Court of Holyrood Palace - a well deserved promotion !!!!
…………………………………….
95 John O. Claymores at dawn …. tory turncoat !!
Re 76 & 80. Good points I agree. I guess one would have to include in legislation whether a person was capable of consent or not, which I agree is a matter of opinion based upon the evidence.
I appreciate that this is something that has to be done on a case by case basis, but I think that is better than an arbitary figure. I disagree that you have to fix on an arbitary figure and that courts/juries can’t establish ‘capability’ on the facts presented to them. It is the case in many other instances.
I agree with you that the scenerio you paint is completely unacceptable. If not already covered by existing law (I can’t believe that a crime is not already being committed here [abduction of a minor?], but I don’t know. I also can’t think that under any circumstances a jury would consider an 8 year old competent.
Adding capability of consent would also protect vulnerable adults, although you would also have to have protection of the accussed i.e was it reasonable for them to assume the person was capable of consent.
Equally if there is evidence of grooming or trawling for youngsters or misrepresenting of age I asume this would be covered by existing legislation (or it should be!).
I appreciate this is no longer clear cut, but surely what we want is protection of vulnerable people regardless of age and that is better than a clear cut age which lets through lots of abuse and penalises cases where no abuse exists.
Currently lots of vulnerable people are not protected simply because they are over 16, two 15 years having sex can be subject to a prosecution and a mature 15 year old who seduces a 20 year old could result in the 20 year old being prosecuted.
Adding the ‘Responsible Adult’ clause will add back some clear cut limits to the majority of scenarios. I appreciate I have added back an age element which I was trying to get away from, but at least in this case if it is genuine relationship rather than abuse the parties concerned have a course of action to get around the age issue by one of them breaking the link that triggers the ‘Responsible Adult’ clause.
Whew!
Never seen so much moderation outside of a lib dem event.
105 - Phil, Very best of luck
. Weellllll……….. 
106 - Jack, Dawn? Is she a pall of ‘Big’ Kath? Are they related? In all respects ? I do very much hope so…
109 - thanks John.
103. “Maybe you will join me on the doorstep in the current local elections and explain to council tax payers why their taxes are going up to pay for this ludicrous scheme - oh, yes, it’s because the government will not fully fund it.”
Why should CENTRAL government have to provide 100% funding? I assume that you are a local politician, Baskerville. Stop blaming the government and start taking some local responsibility. You see quite happy to blame everyone else - start being a partner for change.
112 - er, because central government is requiring the policy without any reference to local solutions? Same trick the Bush administration has adopted with the unfunded mandates for No Child Left Behind.
103. As a Professor I’m sure you’re happy with Central Government picking up the tab for 100% of your salary.
As a locally elected representative I am happy for my council tax payers to fund local initiatives. This is not one of them. This is an idea that the government has been trying to force onto local authorities since before the last election. Most have turned it down on the grounds I alluded to above.
Now Santa Gord has decided that, whatever our opinion of the scheme’s merits as locally elected custodians of council taxpayers’ money, we will have to part or fully fund this operation because he says so. Very democratic.
112. Where do I volunteer to become a partner for changing the government?
” Politics is the Shadow big buisness casts on society” John Dewey
The Byers propsal is scary but also illustrates the tension played out through all political parties between the Leaderships desire to centralise control , sideline the membership/activists/ and at the same time seem ‘democratic’ and encourage participation.
It also creates a database of supporters that are then targetted in elections , this is that elusive group that most parties expend their technological resources ( canvassing,database,phone banks etc) on finding in the early stages of campaigns so they can then concentrate on the waverers.
in short its a Blairite holy grail..
apears more democratic
Cuts out those awkward MP’s,activists,unions and members
reduces the need for a large membership
Increases the accuracy of the party machine ( you can win more elections on less votes)
money is an obvious issue but the unions and membership arent needed when your replacing the Tories as the chief party of buisness.
Or floating the notion of state funding for parties….
re 112 & 114. I think there is something of a misunderstanding here about how universities are financed. Central government does NOT pick up the tab for 100% of the Professor’s salary. Universities are independent charitable bodies receiving, perhaps, 40% of their overall budgets in grants from Central Government. The rest comes from research contracts, fee income from students, developing intellectual property rights, philanthropic fund raising, endowment income and other sources including spin-out companies.
The problem is that the government acts as though it picks up the entire tab and thinks it can interfere at will.
Apologies for any misunderstanding on university salaries. The point is that when the government orders a council to spend its money on a specific project without funding it, we have taxation without representation.
90. Don’t judge Sarah Teather by her performance on QT the other night. She’s usually a far better performer than that, especially when it’s something (like education decentralisation) she’s particularly into.
118 - then I think it is time to march on the docks and ruin the team imports…..
Seriously, there is a drive to more and more taxation without representation and governance without consultation and balances (Stalin would have been proud!)…. I guess the government feels it has got 4 years to push through whatever the hell it wants, whilst contining to lull the masses into apathy or dependance…. revolutions have been started for less!
117: Worth also adding that the 40% is a figure that is on the way down and the dust hasn’t settled yet. Part of the problem in Universities is that its not clear *who* they are beholden too — students, the government or the research councils. Squaring that triangle is what is causing alot of the financial issues that are building in the higher education sector.
Haven’t seen much comment on this poll:
http://www.populuslimited.com/pdf/2006_03_06_DailyPolitics.pdf
here, it suggests serious problems for the Lib Dems.
In short Gordon Brown is disproportionately popular in Lab/Lib seats and David Cameron is disproportionately popular in Con/Lib seats.
79 Fred - Good question.
http://news.bbc.co.uk.edgesuite.net/1/low/uk_politics/247000.stm
22 - And the squeeze begins.
I really can’t see the Lib Dems maintaining their current number of seats on 09
[121] There’s no doubt what the Government wants for universities - the Chancellor particularly - it wants the American system of alumnus endowment. Of course, no one has a clue how to get there from here - after all, it only took the Yanks a couple of centuries
New LibDem frontbench
Leader: Sir Menzies Campbell MP
Treasury spokesman: Vince Cable MP
Transport spokesman: Alistair Carmichael MP
Home affairs spokesman: Nick Clegg MP
Trade and industry spokesman: Edward Davey MP
Culture, media and sport spokesman: Don Foster MP
Shadow to the chief secretary to the Treasury: Julia Goldsworthy MP
Defence spokesman: Nick Harvey MP
Commons and Cabinet Office spokesman: David Heath MP
Shadow to the attorney general and Department for Constitutional Affairs spokesman: Simon Hughes MP
Environment, food and rural affairs spokesman: Chris Huhne MP
International development spokesman: Susan Kramer MP
Leader’s chief of staff: Norman Lamb MP
Work and pensions spokesman: David Laws MP
Leader in the House of Lords: Lord McNally
Foreign affairs spokesman: Michael Moore MP
Northern Ireland and Wales spokesman: Lembit Opik MP
Chief whip in the Lords: Lord Shutt
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister spokesman: Andrew Stunell MP
Scotland spokesman: Jo Swinson MP
Education spokesman: Sarah Teather MP
Health spokesman: Steve Webb MP
125: Absolutely. And don’t we know it. Between me and my partner we have spent time several different unis and now every single one keeps ringing up with a proffered cap.
Personally I can’t quite stomach it as I am all too aware of the strings tied to unis. I suspect I’m not alone. The dour one is certainly not going to get what he wants until gets his paws off.
81.”1. There is now clear evidence that Andrea and the Miniature for Rutland have engaged in the most [……moderated……] activities that the NOTW will call this Sunday […….moderated…….] and the pink hippo wasn’t happy either !!”
Jack, I deny everything. I’ve already consulted my lawyer BMA QC and we intend to put forward the evidence of Lynne, the French Maid.
126. Nick Harvery
No Evan Harris
Jack, no Thurso!
is Stunnell staying as Chief Whip? If not who’s the Chief Whip?
124: Not quite sure where that assessment comes from. 80% of libdems saying that they were not more likely to vote for cameron?
I suspect the reason why it hasn’t had much press is that there isn’t anything particularly suprising in it. There is far too little information and far too much spin generally at the moment. Bring on the locals.
The Chief Whip is elected by the Parliamentary Party, so there will have to be an election by the end of the month, along with a new lection for Deputy Leader.
126 - So the big heave-ho for My Lord Thurso. The grubby money-makers and grasping advocates have triumphed over the social liberalism of the ancient Scottish nobility
But sadly almost inevitable after the Jacobite em-brace. What a bunch of pheasants.
A surprising set of appointments I think, 16 out of the 22 Shadow Cabinet members were Ming backers, only Hughes, Huhne, Webb, Kremer and Stunnell ( who as Chief Whip was neutral) were not. Although the appointments mostly stand up on an individual basis I’m a little worried that some who didn’t get anything will feel shafted because they backed the wrong horse, not a unifying move.
Anyway, will be interesting to see who gets the second tier appointments.
I am suprised that Evan Harris was not given something.
134: I think he has family commitments and has expressly asked not to be on the front bench — certainly he dropped off the front bench a couple of years ago at his own request.
135 follow up
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3186310.stm
I make that Brake, George, Gidley, Thursoe sacked. Baker stepped down.
132 - A very Jack W-esque post from John O there…?
Re 122 & 124 (or 22 & 24 on my page!)I’m commenting without reading the details (dangerous I know!), but it is worth noting that for most people they don’t show any interest outside of elections and completely forget they are in a marginal having not had dozens of reminders for the previous few weeks.
In 2001 prior to the GE I had access to a private poll carried out in a Tory/LD marginal. It showed a good lead for the Tories, with Labour in 2nd place followed by the LDs in 3rd. The eventual GE result was the Tories winning the seat by under 1000 over the LDs with Labour 17,000 behind!
Any betting for the may local elections ?
Peter
231. Ah, thanks. I missed it.
re 60 sorry!
138. Cookie, no-one could reach the level of Jack W! He’s in a class on its own!
138
But, in fact, Book Value is my model 
133. Jeremy Browne to move up to Shadow Europe Minister?
Tom Brake and John Thurso will be nominated for select committee positions. Sandra Gidley will join the Liberal Democrat Health Team and be nominated for the Health Select Committee.
What about Featherstone?.
Barking mad question on the Populus poll:
“The Liberal Democrats seem decent people but their policies probably don’t really add up” Agree or Disagree?
If you don’t think they are decent nor polices add up you have to disagree, but I suspect many will be tempted to say they agree because they want to record a negative, but this will overstate those that think LDs are nice people. If you are in this category and answer honestly then those that think the LDs aren’t decent will be grouped with those that think they are decent and their policies do add up i.e grouping supporters of LDs with people who dislike them.
Shouldn’t group 2 questions in one question as there are 4 possible answers not 2.
Ben Bradshaw is getting married in June. Hopefully he’ll do something for his hair (maybe change hairstylist) for the ceremony.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4786378.stm
146 - The equivalent of being made Deputy Minister for Power Stations, based in Turkmenistan, in Soviet days. Bet they’re all wild in anticipation…
An Australian take on British politics:
“Tories go populist
…At a much more fundamental level the Tory resurgence has been built on an ideological surrender, on declaring defeat in the battle of ideas that has shaped British politics in recent decades.
Abandoning the stringent, small-government creed of Toryism that Margaret Thatcher launched in the 1970s, Cameron, 39, has rejected the keep-the-faith strategy of the four Tory leaders who followed Thatcher and instead has accepted the basic parameters of Blairism, a centrist style of government built on fiscal restraint, strong spending on public services and liberal social policies.
The result is that after more than a decade of making a lonely and unpopular stand on the Right of the political spectrum, the Tories have rushed to the Centre ground, which is now more crowded than it has been for a half-century. Cameron’s success has rattled the Liberal Democrats, the centrist third party that long ago drifted to the Left of Blair on issues such as civil rights, the Iraq war, taxation, public spending and the environment.
Menzies Campbell, the cautious Scotsman who was elected last week as the new Liberal Democrats leader, is already nudging them a touch further to the Right, vying with Labour and the Tories for that elusive Centre. …”
- Perhaps observing things from a distance helps to see the wider picture?
149 - surely the article is wrong to say Chris Smith was the first MP to declare his homosexuality? What about Maureen Colquhoun?
152. it’s like when articles say Dinky is the first openly gay Tory MP. It’s not true.
153 Andrea, who was?
Re 122 Populus Poll. This takes some understanding, samples are very heavily male in some seats, the opposite in others.
My reading gives Eastbourne to the Lib Dems on a landslide and Cons retain Ludlow similarly. The Durham return is totally out of kilter with recent results, national and local, the latest 2 weeks ago. Says Lib Dems well in front in Wells, Guildford, Weston Super Mare and Totnes, falen to third in Oldham East, collapsed completely in Norwich South and Watford.
I struggle to believe any of it.
153 - Who was?
156. without going back in time too much Michael Brown was an openly gay Tory MP after being outed in mid-90’s. So there’s at least an openly gay tory MP before Dinky. Hunky is probably the first tory to have come out.
155 - There is clearly something false with these figures . The Con/Lib marginals purport to show the Lib Dems holding their own or even advancing v the Conservatives despite an increase in the Labour vote and in Lab/Lib marginals the Lib Dems are seemingly trailing badly . A Labour landslide on the cards - I think not .
155/58. They haven’t given tory figures for Islington South because they haven’t found a tory there?
155. You can’t read anything into the individual constituency results. The samples are far too small. You would need a minimum of 300 per constituency weighted to the demographic profile.
148:“The Liberal Democrats seem decent people but their policies probably don’t really add up”
I presume the other questions yet to be put are “do you think that New Labour are indecent people whose policies definitely don’t add up, so they should go forth and multiply - and do you agree that the Tories have a history of division though they only really want to take away?
157. He wasn’t out while he was an MP though. Matthew Parris came out in a speech in Parliament but no-one noticed (he says!).
159. Hey, I used to live in Islington. Ah yes, “used to”…
162. Brown was an MP until 1997 (swept away in the Labour ladslide). So he was out in the time between his outing (1994?) and his defeat. IIRW he and Edwina were the first to try to repeal the ban of gay people in the armed forces.
162 I thought the tabloid press outed him while he was an MP.
165. yes. IIRC the headline was “Lawmaker is a lawbreaker!”
122,124,139 (etc.)
On the Populus poll, I think that the disproportionate support for Cameron in Con/Lib marginals and Brown in Lab/Lib marginals is almost entirely due to the disproportionate number of Conservative supporters over Labour in the former and disproportionate number of Labour supporters over Conservatives in the latter.
There is a small difference in likelihoods of the 3rd party voters (Lab in Con/Lib and Con in Lab/Lib marginals) to the Tories benefit but that’s about it, I’m afraid.
Plus there’s the perennial problem of getting representative samples in marginals.
166. I’ve looked at it. He was outed on 7th May 1994 in the NOTW. A student (the son of a former news editor of a Scottish newspaper) was paid a five-figure sum by The News of the World for a story and stolen pictures of Michael Brown on holiday in Barbados with a 20-year-old man.
When it was clear that NOTW would have outed him the following day, David Davis drove in the middle of the night to Brown’s home to show his support.
re Maureen Colquhoun
Still causing chaos on the Lake District National Park Authority (Secretary of State appointment, so Labour still looking after it’s own). She’s been to the South Lakeland Local Strategic Partnership meeting on occasions and always been “prickly”.
169. She’s a member of executive committee of Association of Former Members of Parliament.
Now Leeds University is doing a research about MPs who lose their seats and how they cope with it
http://www.leedstoday.net/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=39&ArticleID=1370057
There’s been quite enough moderation to-day without me telling my Maureen Colquhoun story as well
271. Innocent Abroad, you were Maureen’s former husband and I claim my 5 Labour scandals
Having had more time to study the poll I would say the following:
I agree with 155,158,160, and 167 comments particularly on the sample size (lots of single figures!) and consequently the accuracy. Although I would love to believe the poll was accurate particularly taking into account my comments in 139 where I believe the LD figure tends to be understated in LD marginals outside of elections.
I’m surprised 122 & 124 think this polls is a problem for the LDs. Looks very very good to me, but as said unfortuately I don’t beleive it for any particular constituencies shown.
[272] That’s an extraditable allegation… I’d be very very careful if I were you
149 - surely the article is wrong to say Chris Smith was the first MP to declare his homosexuality? What about Maureen Colquhoun?
In a pub by Victoria Park, Hackney in the early ’80s a middle aged woman surprised me by saying “you are gay aren’t you?”.
I assurred her I wasnt, and she proceeded to tell me about her partner Maureen Colquhoun, who I think she had just had a row with.
Can anyone find the ‘Their policies don’t add up’ question for the Lib Dems for autumn 2004 & 2005?
Actually I’ve found a gross figure for ‘don’t add up’ now.
Has fallen from 69% in 2004 (64% 2003) to 50% now. Pretty good progress.
Can’t find the 2005 figure though.
274. was Maureen so bad!?
251 - IIRC The Australian is part of the Murdoch stable.
Maureen Coloqhoun had views on immigration that would perhaps not endear her to the current Labour establishment.
PROCLAIMATION
It is hereby determined that Our Trusty and well beloved peer, the noble, the third Viscount Thurso and sixth Baronet of Ulbster, known commonly as John Thurso shall receive the acclaimation of the Jacobite Court of Holyrood Palace for his campaign as Deputy Leader of the Liberal Democrats.
Given under our hand and at Our Court
This day the eighth day of March
In the year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Forty Six.
At the Court of Holyrood Palace, Edinburgh in the forty fifth year of Our Reign.
Jacobus Rex.
By the Grace of God, James VIII, King of Scots.
James III King of England.
181. Jack, is he code message to say he’s running for the deputy leadership position?
182 Andrea. If called upon to serve …..
183. Jack, should we start a Poirot, ops, Thurso for deputy leader campaign ?
(btw, at 182 it should have naturally been “it”, not “he”!)
184 Andrea. My dear Miss Marple ….. what a quite splendid idea. !! ….. some seed cake …. and more tea ??
185. cake? tea? yeah, but a murder?
186 That’s happened already - Kennedy’s assasination…
186 Andrea. Really Jane !! …. this is reality not Midsomer Murders ….. however I shall sharpen a brace of claymores ….. should any opposition become tiresome.
188.”this is reality not Midsomer Murders”
Infact I said A murder, not 5 murders + unspeakable sex acts not even a wild Libdem could think about!
Re Lib dem appointments today… There is a very vicious article on the BBC… I hadn’t even noticed that Ming has removed the position of spokesman for women…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4488146.stm
On Lib Dem adding up, PEter Riddell had lib dems on 34% for economic credibility. I think the figures were 275 for Tories and 37% for Labour (but can’t be arsed to check. his comment was that this was a pretty high figure for lib dems and possibly a result of Vince Cable’s efforts.
191 -Should have proof read that; Lib dems on 24% Tories on 27% and Labour on some higher figure.
291. The question was “Which party do you most trust to get the balance right between the level of taxes and the level of public spending?” : Lab 31 Con 27 LD 24
193. Manage the economy well overall: 38/26/10
Make sure that the taxes needed to fund public spending are raised in the fairest way possible: 33/25/16
Take economic decisions that are in the best long term interests of the country, rather than for short-term political gain: 33/27/13
193 thanks - better than I remembered.
195. it was a pleasure! and yep, Riddell argued they could a result of Cable’s efforts.
Sorry. Andrea who’s who in 33/27/13 for example?
297- Paul, it’s always Lab/Con/LD.