Will it all be blamed on Gordon if he goes?
July 4th, 2008
How much does this add to the problems of Darling and Brown?
In terms of public interest the main story in the Times this morning will probably have less immediate impact on public opinion than last night’s news of the rejection by the commons of the proposals to deal with MPs’s expenses.
But if the paper, which appears to have this as an exclusive, has this right then it will, surely, be another hammer blow to what used to be Brown’s main USP - his record of economic management.
According to the paper: “..Mr Darling is fighting a bruising battle with the National Audit Office (NAO), which is unhappy at the way that the nationalisation of Northern Rock is being treated in the Treasury’s books. The annual report from No 11 was published yesterday but, in a highly unusual departure from normal procedure, without the department’s resource accounts..A Treasury spokesman confirmed the delay but denied that the spending watchdog had threatened to qualify its accounts. The books must be published before the parliamentary recess in three weeks’ time…”
Most people probably cannot fathom the detail of this but the simple phrase splashed all over the front page of the paper “Watchdog rejects Treasury accounts” has the potential to be very damaging - particularly as it harks back to the Northern Rock crisis.
It also gives a taste of what we could expect if Brown went before the election. A new leader would have to find a rallying call for the movement and dumping on the outgoing office-holder might be an answer. This is after all how most of life operates - predecessors always seem to get the blame.
Maybe this is a reason why Gord will carry on?
Mike Smithson
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Interesting post. It seems that Brown is destind to et the blame for the impending catastrophe but there are no control experiments in Politics. If Blair had “Gone on and on” we may well have had the same poll ratings by now. We know how grim the 2007 elections were even when people knew he was off.
Thatcher was sparred this fate because her supporters wrote history of her being brought down by pigmies and betrayed. “never defeated by the people”.
Blair went of his own accord and thus is aloud aclaim and appeals for a return.
yet the history books will be cruelest to Major and Brown even though n many ways all they have done is drink from a poisoned chalice.
OT. I notice we still have no Clegg on the mast head. His first 6 months are now up. Is he still in the dog house with you Mike ?
very O/T-I notice the Grauniad had no problem stating that a white man was seen running from the scene of the horrific killing of two French students. They never seem to do so when when the alleged perpetrator is non-white. Why? At least they are not suggesting it’s a hate crime though!
Darling is being blamed for Brown’s decisions. However, he should have the guts to tell Brown to back off or he will resign.
Nothing can solve the fact that Labour do not know how to run the economy and never have. In good economic times they overspent, overborrowed and piled up debt.
But honestly - all this reminds me of the year prior to Blair leaving. Cameron was ahead (admittedly not by this much), there were bad news stories constantly, Labour were ferrets in a sack, and every week we wondered when exactly Blair would go - and he hung on to the bitter end.
Read the article in “The Mole” first post for good insight into the PLP. They all want him gone but they know it means an election. Jack W is quite wrong about that as Jack Straw already said it would have to happen on Today. Therefore, they are not going to push the guy out - “suicide pact”.
We saw the clearest possible indication that Brown will stay yesterday. The vast majority of people voting for the John Lewis list were Labour MPs including Labour Cabinet ministers and Brown’s PPSes. That was in the teeth of overwhelming public opinion against. What does that say to you? It says to me they know they are on the way out and they are determined to save as much money as they can before that happens. If they vote for the JLL they will NOT push Gordon out and face the electorate.
Gordon stays.
4. Indeed. about 120 Labour MP’s know they have 22 months left and have decided to milk what they have rather than roll the dice and hope for a 6. Thats why I think Brown will survive even a defeat in Glasgow East.
1 “yet the history books will be cruelest to Major and Brown even though n many ways all they have done is drink from a poisoned chalice.”
and because they are rubbish.
“Will it all be blamed on Gordon if he goes?”
Yes. Everything. He will now go down in history as one of the worst prime ministers, ever.
Historians are even going to lay the blaim for the dissolution of the Union fairly on Brown’s shoulders. A tad unfair considering the outstanding contributions of Harold Wilson, Ted Heath, Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair to that goal. But who said that history was ever fair?
Martin Kettle’s article on Glasgow East is very interesting today- Labour trying to ensure a low poll. Does anyone know what the representation is like at ward level after the STV vote last year? It might give an idea of the sort of activist support there is for each party.
A classic FPTP rotten borough constituency I think.
There has been a change of mood in the last couple of days, and you can see it reflected on here. Last week, Labour’s poll woes were due to Gordon’s lack of empathy but now the commentariat is filled with despair at the state of the economy.
Of course, some of us have said this all along. No-one has turned from Labour because Gordon bites his nails. Prices are up and former Labour voters are having trouble making ends meet. You can see it every day at the supermarket checkout.
So what has changed for the chattering classes? Why has it taken them so long, and why have they now caught up? Partly they are more affluent, of course, and don’t pay cash at Tesco, but we have just passed the end of the month, and pay day, and I’m guessing they’ll have just paid their credit card bills and been shocked at how much less remains in their bank accounts.
9 OT — took two goes to post that because “pay day” as one word is on the banned list.
AJK @ 8 re rotten boroughs. Glasgow East is also hideously white, in the modern parlance.
5 you’re right YS, he’ll survive even that. They are going nowhere (except to John Lewis shopping on the ACA)
8 - The STV result by polling district will not be published, but the Scotland Office can be found at http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/our-communications/documents.php?doctype=pubs but are by Scottish Parliament Constituency so you have to re-aggregate the numbers into Westminster Constituencies by the polling district codes.
8 Sorry should read
The STV result by polling district will not be published, but the Scotland Office has published the Scottish Parliament Result by polling district or ballot box. These can be found at http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/our-communications/documents.php?doctype=pubs but are by Scottish Parliament Constituency so you have to re-aggregate the numbers into Westminster Constituencies by the polling district codes.
OT
As a farmer I am appalled by the Badger decision being reported this morning. So much for taking difficult decisions as GB claimed last week.
The idea is no doubt that you just talk crap about bio-security because 95% of people have never seen the disease in humans, let alone cattle. It just shows the way third rate politicians like Benn junior behave.
We thought thank god when Bradshaw was moved, what an obnoxious little man he was.
Time for a government which is prepared to lead, not follow. Oh, wasn’t that what Brown said last week.
With Brown as the predecessor Chancellor, Darling has to be fitted up to carry the blame for the actions of his predecessor - an unusual new system for blame apportionment - blame the successor!
1. I don’t think Blair went of his own accord at all. If he had, some of his acolytes might rally around Brown rather than watching smugly from the sidelines. It was Tom Watson and co that did in Blair, another case of a pygmies revolt.
12. My own Labour MP has become a sustained rebel recently. No previous form despite never being promoted. Its not the kind of seat where rebelling on Guardian reader issues like renewable energy will get him very far. So why do it ? Because he knows this is it. He’s finished and he’s going to make every last day count. The John Lewis list is the less altruistic side of the same coin.
O/T.
This Ray Phillips pal of Boris is accused of sexual and financial sleaze. Is the scandal that he’s not yet a Tory EuroMP?
Even more O/T.
Bury elected mayors! What a good idea. Last night’s thread had a Tory who supports this Tory policy of Labour’s congratulating the Tories who (he says) defeated the proposal. Is the man a special adviser to Chammie?
Ted and I highlighted this story last night at the same time. One of the things it does bring to mind is that we are now in the same state as the EC which has not had it’s accounts signed for a number of years. If this is used against the government I can see it as another significant nail in the coffin. That along with the stupidity of the ‘John Lewis’ vote last night will bring this comparison firmly into the public’s mind.
‘Brown’s Scottish play’, by Iain Macwhirter, New Statesman
“For 50 years, Scotland was unshakeably Labour. But a string of party blunders has lost it - and the Union - to the Nationalists.
… With a lacklustre Labour front bench in Holyrood and no inspiring replacement for Alexander, Labour is looking into a Scottish abyss. There is now no credible challenge to the immensely popular SNP government. Labour, through its incompetence and infirmity of purpose, has handed Scotland to Alex Salmond on a plate and hastened the break-up of Britain.”
http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2008/07/scottish-labour-alexander
One question here is how much blame is Darling prepared to take? I don’t know the ins and outs of the Treasury accounts (non-)sign-off, but the Northern Rock crisis was clearly on Darling’s watch. That, however, may not matter that much if things turn politically nasty. As Mike rightly says in his intro, on matters like this, the media headlines are much more important than the somewhat impenetrable detail. If Gordon continues to interfere as if the Treasury was still ‘his’ department (I know he’s technically First Lord of it, but that’s stretching a point), at what point do we think about a Darling resignation?
I don’t think it will happen. Brown’s ministers have seemed content to be browbeaten by the PM so far, but everyone has their limit, especially if they’re getting landed with what appears to them to be unfair blame - remember Geoffrey Howe. Were any one of Brown’s senior ministers to make a similar speech to Howe’s, it would be an irrecoverable position, though still might not force his immediate departure.
Darling’s position is therefore a good deal stronger than he appears to be acting as if it is (short of there being something else in the whips’ files that we don’t know about). Brown cannot sack him and cannot afford his resignation - it justs risks too much with him outside the government. Darling should be able to tell him to sod off if Brown stick his nose too far back into Treasury business. Why won’t he? Habit? Loyalty? Lack of Balls?
Perhaps he is worried that Brown’s position is so weak that were he to undermine him, it could bring about the PM’s departure, and that would bring about his own. He’d probably be right to think that a change of PM would mean a change of chancellor, but wrong to assume that Brown could be that easily forced out, and in fact, I doubt he does think that.
Ultimately, Brown will go sooner or later anyway - probably by 2010. The likelihood is that it will all be blamed on him anyway: Prime Ministers always get too much credit and too much blame.
I find yesterday’s vote on the “John Lewis list” quite remarkable. I really wouldn’t have given them credit for acting in such a monstrously self-centred manner, from the Great Officers of State downwards. The Labour Party is now reduced to behaving like a ragtag Barbarian army, sacking the city of as much shiny treasure as it can, before retreating ahead of the impending return of the Legions.
I thought I had a reasonable handle on how badly Labour would poll. I have correctly predicted the rate and scale of Labour’s decline. I have 20% as the MORI Tory lead in the 2008 competition. I have even prised a tenner for the doggies off Mr Palmer MP betting on this. A week or so ago, I argued that the Tory lead had probably reached the top. But now - I’m not so sure.
The mood in the commentariat is shifting even further. Labour seem to have lost all semblance of a party governing for the national good - mistaken though they may have been in their reading of that phrase - nor even in their narrow party interest. They now look like a shoddy collective of time-serving graspers, having no concern for how they are perceived.
They are clinging to a leader who they know is not up to the job - and know the public know is not up to the job. But if they have a new leader, they know there needs to be a general election. And they do not have the funds to fight that. The economy is set to get worse for the next two years, so Micawberism isn’t going to save them electorally. They could go now and leave the Tories with the mess - and strategise that they will let them cop the blame from the voters in a couple of years for most likely not having the answers to sort it out. But instead, they are clinging on with such a grip that rigor mortis has already set in.
This now looks like a party in terminal decline. 20% Tory leads are looking like a mere stopping point on the journey.
Glasgow East candidates so far:
Frances Curran, SSP
John Mason, SNP
Davena Rankin, SCUP
Ian Robertson, SLD
Labour will probably announce candidate later today:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/scotland_politics/7488404.stm
I notice that Barbara Follett voted on both sides yesterday - the equivalent of getting a plasma telly but not watching it out of principle ?
Are there any polls planned for this weekend. In don’t think it will be long until we see a poll with Labour on sub 20 and Tory on 50 plus if the press continue with this barrage.
26 What is the betting that her leaflets only highlight the “voting to end the list” bit?
More wretched barrel-scraping.
27 Not one minister who voted to keep the Lewis list prepared to defend their actions on Radio 4 this morning. Maybe Gordons disease is catching……..
15: We’ll have to agree to differ on that - IMO it’s brilliant news, and the all-party animal welfare group, one of the largest in the Commons, will be thrilled. I’ve repeatedly lobbied Defra about it and so have numerous other MPs from all three parties. The science shows unambiguously that a partial cull not only doesn’t work but makes the problem worse (because other badgers move to fill the vacuum, and the the last thing you want is more mobility of potentially sick badgers). It’s a view supported by both the whole Independent Study Group panel, who spent years analysing it, and in particular Krebs and Bourne, the specialists on the issue.
If a cull would actually deal with the problem we’d have to consider it - TB is unpleasant for badgers as well as cattle, after all. But unless we actually eradicated all badgers it wouldn’t. I understand why farmers feel that something simply has to be done, but that’s not a reason for gassing for the sake of seeming to tackle the problem, knowing that it won’t do any good. There isn’t a magic bullet - intensive movement controls, testing and vaccine development are the only way that the scientists can see to make progress.
BBC’s Brian Taylor on Nicol Stephen resignation:
“Mike Rumbles was first into the frame - and will stand on a ticket of, among other things, reopening a debate within the party as to whether to endorse an independence referendum or not.
That stance will win support in some quarters of the LibDems. Glance at the title of the party. Liberal and democratic. They are institutionally inclined towards both discussion and plebiscites.
Tavish Scott took the toughest line against supporting a referendum during the brief talks with the SNP about a putative coalition. He argues that, if the SNP win a majority, then they should have their referendum and hope for fine weather. But other parties who support the Union should not assist them in their task.
That will be an intriguing element of the debate within the Liberal Democrats - just as within the leaderless Labour Party.
Alex Salmond must daily wonder if he is dreaming.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/briantaylor/2008/07/battle_begins.html
[OT]: Christopher Hitchens subjects himself to some Bush-favoured waterboarding torture:
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/video/2008/hitchens_video200808
The gruesome side of US politics. Brave man.
15/30- what wonderful news. There is no logic for a cull.
I don’t think a difficult decision equates to the gassing of 200,000 badgers for something that will not help farmers or cattle.
SDLP councillor (former mayor) on Newry and Mourne District Council dies refereeing a GAA match in County Down:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7488918.stm
24. Well done. It is worse than that for Labour of course, but you’ll get to see all that as it unfolds (sorry to sound smug, but so many people are catching on just now, what with Glasgow East etc.). The interesting party political question for me is what - if anything - happens to social democracy in the UK. The SDP - LibDem experiment cannot be said to have been a success. Blair/Mandelson entryism of the 70’s union-funded labour party is over. What next? More importantly, my main prediction at the start of the year was for serious social unrest. I’m afraid I didn’t define that to the point of being able to place a bet, but some serious rioting this calendar year still seems more likely than not.
29 I can remember hearing one DEFRA official on the radio who plainly couldn’t wait to get to grips with the badgers. He’ll be disappointed.
29 If Labour’s Front Bench had voted against the retention of current expenses regime it would have fallen - even if they had abstained it would have fallen. Gordon Macavity Brown’s excuse that he didn’t bother to vote because he was told the vote was lost is exposed as a lack of leadership - he’s so weak he was unable to have and enforce a common approach on his own ministers, he’s so unable to show leadership that he will only vote if he knows he is going to win.
The Treasury Accounts may not chime with most but underlying the matter is surely that Northern Rock has blown a hole in the national accounts, exposing yet again the chimera of the Brownian economic miracle he fabricated over a decade. In a time on economic difficulties when strong leadership is required from the Government we instead have a dysfunctional Treasury, u-turns on tax proposals, unable to agree what the nations balance sheet looks like and with Chancellor who is a joke in the City.
24. I have some sympathy with those who voted against the proposed reforms in that they would have been very bureaucratic and difficult to adequately audit, and who ended up with the status quo by default. The problem was with the reform package: it surely couldn’t have been too difficult to produce a more publicly acceptable set of proposals, or to table amendments which would have given that same end? As it was, parliament (though mainly, as noted by various media sources, Labour MPs), snatched a PR defeat from the jaws of victory, after the salary vote.
“The people leading a convention to measure support for a possible referendum on law-making powers for the Welsh assembly have been revealed.
The 16 members of the All Wales Convention executive are drawn from all regions and political parties.
The committee will be chaired by former British ambassador to the United Nations Sir Emyr Jones Parry.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/wales_politics/7488162.stm
http://new.wales.gov.uk/awcsub/awchome/?lang=en
37. There is so much in Brown’s attitude to politics in general summed up in that quote: if you can’t win you don’t matter so it’s not even worth trying. Anyone watching Wimbledon (not admittedly a microcosm of the UK, but still …), will know that Brits tend to love someone trying to win against the odds, even if they go down in the end - as long as they go down fighting, and providing it’s a fight worth winning.
38: I agree with David Herdson. To be fair, the alternative package has most of the elements of the rejected one: it’s got the audit on individual members’ expenses every 4 years, the key element. The missing bits that motivated MPs were the receipt level going down from £25 to zero and the ban on furniture, which many MPs felt were nitpicking issues. But politically it’s a crap decision for the reputation of Parliament.
40 - That’s an extremely shrewd observation.
41 “But politically it’s a crap decision for the reputation of Parliament.”
Bravo Mr. Palmer for saying that on the record.
Don’t suppose we can get you to agree with my assessment of Labour now being perceived as “a shoddy collective of time-serving graspers, having no concern for how they are perceived”?
40 Spot on. I thought that in writing about “Courage”, Gordon might just have absorbed by osmosis the notion that it incorporates the idea of “against all odds”.
re 41. Well done last night on your vote Nick. It was also good to see my former opponent and local MP, Patrick Hall, also voting the same way.
43 - no need to taunt, MM. Let’s just appreciate Nick’s integrity on this issue.
46 Agreed.
BTW, the list that Mike linked to provides one or two surprises… such as the fact that Frank Dobson is still an MP.
Round up of last nights results apart from Mid Sussex where they are counting this morning .
Barking/Dagenham Chadwell Heath Con gain from Lab
Con 842 Lab 691 BNP 564 UKIP 142 Ind 11
2006 result Lab 1101/999/987 Con 873/734/583 Ind 560 UKIP 385/376
Havering South Hornchurch Ind gain from Res
Ind 661 BNP 518 Con 438 Lab 416 Resid 287 UKIP 64 Eng Dem 28 Res Ass 17 Ind 17
2006 result Resid 878/788/757 Lab 821/741/733 Con 812/732/628 Ind 687/656/623 Green 204/191 Resid 186
Bexley Christchurch Con hold
Con 1192 LibDem 459 BNP 431 Lab 411
2006 result Con 2205/2188/2098 Lab 733/633/621 LibDem 513/501/443
Derbyshire CC Eckington Lab hold
Lab 824 Con 658 Ind 300 BNP 253 Ind 150 LibDem 113
2005 result Lab 2573 Con 885 LibDem 702 Ind 453 Ind 410
North East Derbyshire Killamarsh West Labour hold
Lab 480 Con 342 Ind 169 LibDem 51
2007 result Labour unopposed
North East Derbyshire Unstone LibDem gain from Ind
LibDem 169 Con 160 Lab 146 Ind 66
2007 result Ind 270 Lab 180
Rother Bexhill Sackville Con hold
Con 571 LibDem 491 Lab 93
2007 result Con 660/642 LibDem 564/533 Ind 200 Lab 114
48 Pretty wretched results there for Labour in Derbyshire - in what must be the Beast of Bolsover’s neck of the woods?
Cue Ave It….
“The big issue preoccupying the inner circle is Glasgow East. It is not much of a secret that Mr Brown must safeguard the seat from the SNP’s clutches in order to save himself from being confronted by worried colleagues.
But Labour is quietly confident it will retain the seat and it will not come to this. Insiders say even if it hangs on by 300 votes, they will be happy.”
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Inside-Westminster-39West-Wing39-looks.4255168.jp
30
Nick P - frankly I am disappointed you appear to have written off ID cards for the little blighters
50. Wow, now thats scraping the barrel.
50 Martin Kettle in the Guardian:
“The sole aim is to hold off the SNP in a very low poll held as quickly as possible after Marshall’s resignation. Be sure that, if it all goes wrong, Roy will be forced to take the blame rather than Brown.
It is all a far cry from the calls for a “new kind of politics” and the concern over falling turnouts that marked some of Brown’s speeches in the months after he succeeded Tony Blair. Today, humiliatingly, Labour’s view is that the fewer people who vote, the better. Glasgow East - like Brown’s premiership - is now entirely about survival.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/04/scotland.scotland
49. Marquee Mark: Cue Ave It…
The thought of CON GAIN SKINNER is one of the scariest things ever…
13 The STV results will be published but not in time for this by-election which is unfortunate because this might have given us an idea about the SNP candidate as I understand that 30% of his ward is in this constituency and his vote last year was the highest for any councillor in Glasgow and one of the highest in Scotland.
@48:
I’m delighted that the splendidly-named TERRY JUSTICE saw off what was looking like a hard fight from the BNP at one point in Chadwell Heath. In the end it was not to be, they didn’t even beat Labour!
53. Ted, quoting Martin Kettle: Today, humiliatingly, Labour’s view is that the fewer people who vote, the better.
Another New Labour plank falls. How often in the last 11 years have we heard Ministers citing high turnout at elections as an end in itself?
48 Mark - you can add to that list Corsham (as posted late last night):
There was also a by-election in Wiltshire today for one of the 7 Corsham Ward seats on Corsham Town Council. This town saw a BNP candidate take a seat in the neighbouring town council ward unopposed last year. When an Independent resigned recently everyone sought to ensure the electorate had a wide choice of candidates - 8 in total.
The result:
676 Isabel Langsford (Lib Dem)
399 Conservative candidate
172 Independent
147 Independent
119 BNP
92 Labour
42 Green
16 Independent
A majority of 277 votes, from a 40% vote share.
This area makes up two thirds of a district council ward which elected 3 Conservative councillors last year, including the current leader of the council, with majorities ranging from 300 to 500 votes.
This was Isabel’s first election campaign, so congratulations to her and the team. I have every confidence that she will make an excellent councillor.
Duncan
@53:
‘Labour’s view is that the fewer people who vote, the better.’
Labour are going back to their Marxist-Leninist roots?
39 “The people leading a convention to measure support for a possible referendum on law-making powers for the Welsh assembly have been revealed.”
Referendum? A Democratic vote? With Gordon Brown as PM?
Don’t hold your breath. . .
50 The “Scottish Labour List of Shame”, courtesy of “Jimmy the Pie” in the comments:
These are the Scottish MPs who voted to keep the trough filled up and their places at the trough booked!! Remember their names. Working class heroes???
Gordon Banks (Ochil & Perthshire South),
Tom Clarke (Coatbridge),
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow & Falkirk East),
Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West),
Brian Donohoe (Ayrshire Central),
Jimmy Hood (Lanark & Hamilton East),
Adam Ingram (East Kilbride, Strathaven & Lesmahagow),
Eric Joyce (Falkirk),
Tommy McAvoy (Rutherglen & Hamilton West),
James McGovern (Dundee West),
Anne McGuire (Stirling),
Rosemary McKenna (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth & Kirkintilloch East),
John Robertson (Glasgow North West),
Jimmy Sheridan (Paisley & Renfrewshire North),
Gavin Strang (Edinburgh East),
David Hamilton (Midlothian),
Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick & Cumnock)
Think the SNP won’t make hay with this in Glasgow East? Bang goes that 18,000….er…300 majority, Gordon.
60 Referendum probably after June 2010 so, even if he survives till then, Gordon will be gone.
BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS
The breaking news is that WIND is reporting to JNN the contents of a new ARSE (BUTT) poll of polls that indicates :
McCain 45% .. Obama 51.5% .. Others 3.5%
The PISSED Jack W Index with added SOAMES BIG MAC weighting shows :
McCain 84 .. Obama 294 .. Toss Up 160
Changes Since Last Projection - Montana moves from Likely McCain to Toss Up Obama.
Eliminate Toss Up States - 270 required for an Electoral College majority.
McCain 187 .. Obama 351.
Obama is the 44th President of the United States of America
……………………
Sources :
WIND ….. Whimsical Independent News Division.
JNN ………..Jacobite News Network.
ARSE …… Anonymous Random Selection of Electors.
BUTT …… British Underpinned Tracking Totals
PISSED … Political Intelligence Seat Selector Election Determinator
SOAMES …System Of Amending Measured Election Scores
BIG MAC ..Ballot Indicies Grid Manifesting America’s Choice
53. Good article. Kettle’s point abut the Government claiming to want to raise voting levels (the word) and then scheduling a by-election during the Glagow Fair (the deed) is a very good one which will, or should, serve Labour’s opponents well.
38 - I’m sorry David, but (for the first time?) I categorically disagree with you.
To watch the debate was the most disgraceful sight I have ever seen in the Commons. The sanctimony and arrogance of those who supported the Touhig Amendment was staggering.
To want to retain the ACA I care little about - but to retain the belief that internal audit is satisfactory reeks of corruption, let alone the absurd belief that it is superior to external oversight becuase it saves an estimated 0.5% of the expenses bill going to (and I quote) ‘Fat Cat City Accountancy Firms’.
I am seriously contemplating running against Touhig as an Independent on this issue at the next election.
65 - Also, thanks to Nick for voting the right way.
So Fabricant has a house in Maine, thats lived in by, ‘Friends’ who don’t pay rent: Hmmmm.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jul/04/conservatives.partyfunding
64. Government wants to move date of County Council elections next year to coincide with European Elections in order to raise turnout. Suspect there is really an ulterior motive for party advantage. Was this not once called gerrymandering?
Just a couple of minutes from SkyNews:
Four year-olds to be taught sexual education, and
Stock-market currently down by 1% on what is expected to be a quiet day!
And then there is this week’s front-page of The Economist. Woe are we…!
The “LA Times” reports that team Obama are looking to use a large stadium for Obama’s convention acceptance speech :
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/07/democratic-conv.html
68 - “gerrymandering”?! A bit much surely. How about “convenient”.
Looking at the news reports on Glasgow East, the change in the locals dates looks increasingly like a gerrymandering trend.
Postal votes, anyone?
72 - You dont think that’s a really ridiculous claim that makes you look very silly?
69, I do think sex education needs serious improvement and should be taught prior to sexual activity is remotely likely (I was taught it at 14-15) but 4? Surely some mistake?
O/T Florida Governor Charlie Crist to get married to Carole Rome
http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/state/article659439.ece
Should have a reasonable effect on GOP VP markets if you’re quick.
Hat-tip to Drudge
Nick P “politically it’s a crap decision for the reputation of Parliament.”
Spot on Nick.
73 - honestly, I don’t think most of the rest of us do. Too depressingly plausible, these days.
‘New row as Turkey sounds warning over Scots banknotes’
“Yesterday, the UK’s Turkish embassy in London said the claim was true and it was tough luck for Scots tourists.
A spokesman added: “It’s better for people from Scotland if they bring English notes.”"
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/07/04/new-row-as-turkey-sounds-warning-over-scots-banknotes-86908-20630682/
If our national resource accounts cannot be signed off by the NAO in reasonably short order then surely it is serious enough to be the subject of a no confidence motion as this would be the worse and clearest example of government incompetence.
Obama in detail on abortion views. Explains the vote that Test has a problem with.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080703/D91MKQ681.html
65 Good luck, Morus, if you run against Touhig. I’d be happy to campaign for you.
But, I would first check whether the independents who ran for the Senedd seat and came within 2.5k of Labour are also running in Westminster.
William Hill - First Permanent President Of The European Union
Anders Fogh Rasmussen (Prime Minister of Denmark) 2/1
Jean-Claude Juncker (Prime Minister of Luxembourg) 4/1
Tony Blair 5/1
Wolfgang Schüssel (Chancellor of Austria) 9/1
José Manuel Barroso (President of the European Commission) 10/1
http://www.willhill.com/iibs/EN/buildcoupon.asp?couponchoice=PO2170629
[32] - Yes, credit where credit’s due. He was challenged to try it out after saying that the US stopped short of torture, but having gone through it now admits he was wrong and that it is torture.
It’s a rare enough thing to see these days, someone actually changing their mind.
Very interesting by election results the BNP coming from nowhere in many ward to gain about a fifth of the vote. How many MEP will they have in 2009?
A good result for the Conservatives in Barking. Sean Fear was right about Tories winning the white working class vote in London.
Neil are you unaware of the gerrymandering that has been identified in postal votes, some of which has led to successful criminal prosecutions.
The government persist in a system which they claim is intended to increase turnout, yet has been criticised by the electoral commission as unsafe. Why?The lack of certainty about the veracity of postal votes in the current system is leading to cynicism about the whole process.
Then respected journalists report that turnout seems to not be a priority for Labour in the Glasgow by election - the very opposite in fact as they manoeuver to depress turnout as they believe a small turnout will help them retain the seat.
And simultaneously, the government announces that the locals and Euro elections will now be moved to the same date to increase turnout.
81 - Kevin Etheridge - I’ll check. To be honest, the only way Touhig loses is if the other three parties let an Independent beat him. If they were insistent on running, it would be a fool’s errand - but given that none of them are within 15,000 votes of hi, I don’t see what they ahve to lose by allowing an Indy to unseat him.
re 9 less remains in my bank account because of the mendacious attitude of the banks. Much trumpeting last month of instant electronic transfers and what do I find this month…. They were lying and as a result I have late payment fees and interest to pay.
84 I beg to differ the BNP are winning the white working class vote in London at the moment .
67 “The register also reveals that John Prescott, the former deputy PM, was paid £70,000 for his ghosted autobiography by Hunter Davies.”
Enough for a third Jag….
[85] - Postal vote fraud is a very real problem, and I hope that the system is changed back, but holding two elections on the same data, rather than a couple of months apart, is not gerrymandering in any sense.
If anything, the government of the day tends to get a bigger beating in Euro elections than in the locals. The cynical thing for Labour to do would be to keep the elections apart - that might save them a few councillors.
Daily Mash take on the ‘John Lewis’ Vote. BLOOD-SOAKED REVOLUTION TO START AT NOON
85. it’s been weeks now since several posters on here tried to smear both muslims and Ken Livingstone with accusations that they were known cheats and would be “rigging” the mayoral election. not surprised to see the same cowardly sniping now.
of course it all went quiet back then when the postal voting broke for Johnson.
re 41 Nick P yes it is bad for the reputation of MPs.
I work for the NHS. If I go and buy a stamp - a second class one mind - if there’s no receipt I don’t get the money back, simple as that. Your colleagues are a bit too precious and high and mighty to understand than complex concept are they?
@88:
The Chadwell Heath vote begs to differ. The BNP threw everything they have at Chadwell Heath, the very centre of their London power base, and they still only managed third.
If they can’t even mount a proper challenge to the Tories in their heartlands, they still have some way to go.
88
A few more photos of Boris cuddling Ray Lewis, and I’m afraid the BNP will be gathering even more white working class votes.
Interesting piece on the background to the, ‘Lewis’ story by Dave Hill.
http://davehill.typepad.com/london3ms/2008/07/ray-lewis-affai.html
Will Hill be Boris’s Gillighan?
@95:
You’re behind the times, Coldstone. The BNP are all about hating Muslims now. Hating blacks is old hat.
93. in some ways the ‘no receipts’ fiddle is worse than the JL list because noone actually knows where the money is going. whether it is even being spent or just trousered.
disgusting.
90 Timothy in the case of the locals and Euros I suspect the government will be glad to get the bad news out of the way all at once. It also, for the non-anorak- confuses the picture a little.
95. it might be a while before anyone elects another journalist/game show host to a position of any responsibility
99 - I’d certainly agree with that - wasn’t Gordon Brown a journalist at one point?.. he turned up on an American game-show the other week as well, didn’t he?
#74,
‘Fraid not…: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7489093.stm
[Nice pic' that they choose, don't ya' think...?]
Still trying to navigate around Sky’s new website, so cannot see if they have posted the story. Looks like a paedos charter. Who’d a thunk that…!
94. having helped out briefly in Chadwell Heath, have to say Terry Justice is a legend of the highest order (what a name!)goes to show if you have a good local candidate, campaign on the right issues you can take on and beat the BNP in working class areas of East London.
96
I’m sure all the ‘ol prejudices about black men have just disappeared, gorn into the ether.
[98] - True, but that is media management, and not gerrymandering. Gerrymandering should be considered a very serious allegation, and not to be bandied about lightly. The “Boy who cried Wolf” and all that.
@102:
His name is wasted on a local Tory councillor. He should give up the Torying business and become a superhero.
Spare a thought for the real sufferer in The John Lewis list affair - it is clearly Debenhams - Shares now 36p - a year ago they were 136p.
92 None of the big parties have been exempt from postal vote frauds - the current system is open to abuse and seems to have a very limited effect on turnout. The failure of the all postal votes trials showed in a harsh light the limitations of the method.
Perhaps if the SNP manage to (legally and without fraud) get their postal vote out and Labour loses because of the way the postal votes break the Government will get over their love affair with postal voting and tighten up the administration.
ed All three main parties have, if I recall, been caught out fiddling with the postal vote system.
However, he postal voting changes were put in place to increase turnout so the government claimed and ploughed on despite the warnings from inside and outside parliament that the proposed system was flawed.
It soon became apparent that this determination was because Labour thought increased turnout helped their vote. Some Labour politicians acknowledged this openly. But this was always phrased to show that increased turnout would favour Labour because that would show the real feelings of the people.
I wonder if they think the same now? Well not in Glasgow they don’t. And we shall judge them on the enthusiasm with which they encourage postal voting when they see a low turnout as an advantage.
24 This now looks like a party in terminal decline. 20% Tory leads are looking like a mere stopping point on the journey.
I was puzzled when, a couple of weeks ago, Mike announced that he had been buying LibDem GE seats. The received wisdom for at least the last two years has been that the LibDems would be badly squeezed as a result of the other two major parties slugging it out. In such circumstances, their current buy price of around 48 seats looked a big ask, indeed some PBers have been forecasting that half the LibDem MPs could face defeat - their has even been the odd reference to meetings taking place in taxis!
Should Labour’s support level fall further, to any appreciable extent, then the LibDems would become Labour’s opponent for second place and might then be expected to challenge for a swathe of their seats, especially in the North of England and such new found confidence might also result in their retaining a number of seats in the South, which are currently at risk of falling to the Tories.
In numerical terms, instead of 50-55 seats looking like their best hope, this might instead become their minimum expectation, with 65-70 seats being a more realistic target.
Did Mike spot this possible eventuality before anyone else?
I think we should be told.
Errr…. why is Douglas Alexander priced at 12/1 to be the next leader of the Lib Dems?
http://www.willhill.com/iibs/EN/buildcoupon.asp?couponchoice=PO1759282
105. he already is a superhero. I think that DC should consider Terry Justice for Shadow Home Secretary. The great thing is he actually lives up to his name
re 92 it was not a smear but fact, and it’s not just Muslims, the majority of electoral fraud has been in areas with large Asian populations with a strong patriarchal system.
some PBers have been forecasting that half the LibDem MPs could face defeat - their has even been the odd reference to meetings taking place in taxis! - Only one has been doing that.
@92:
Sorry, Ed. It’s not a ’smear’ it’s a fact. If you look at a list of the names of all those who have been convicted of postal vote fraud offences, a rather obvious pattern emerges.
109 So you buying.
Actually Martin (94), the Lib Dems had their nomination paper rejected at Chadwell Heath and could not be bothered to even attempt to nominate a candidate at South Hornchurch. I saw no one in Chadwell Heath yesterday that could possibly have answered the description of Angry of Worthing. Nor was anyone carrying a giant diamond Lib Dems winning here board around either Marks Gate or Chadwell Heath High Street. I did not visit the four farms in the ward,badgers, but not sure if they usually vote.
I do have our box tallies which concur with the result. I can confirm that you are right and the Lib Dems are simply whirling like a spin dryer as usual.
Our vote in what was once the safe LAbour ward of Marks Gate was fascinating - but then Terry Justice is a first rate campaigner and fully deserves his victory.
90. But the current position in law is that Local Council Elections are held on the first Thursday of May and in 2009 it is the County Council elections. The Governmnet wants / is consulting on changing the date. Unless there is a justifiable reason then any change of date is at the very least suspect. They are in the process of shooting themselves in the foot by claiming increased turnout as a justification for a change of date whilst appearing to want the opposite in Glasgow East.
108. higher turnout is good for democracy. if the system is flawed, it should be fixed asap.
the criticism i have read of the system on here has been pretty much universally anti-Lab and a lot of it borderline racist.
@117:
There is a very justifiable reason. Convenience.
Why ask the electorate to go out and vote twice, a month apart, when they can by law be moved to the same day?
In fact, this kind of thing is so normal and obvious, I’m baffled as to why the hell you’re whinging about it.
118, high turnout is good, but not at the expense of reliable results.
The serious postal voting problems are well-known, yet Labour have done nothing to address them.
Reagrding postal vote fraud.
Tower Hanmlets introduced a new innovation this year. This was an officer INSIDE polling stations simply to explain the voting procedure. Of course we eventually found one who was also checking that all was well after vote had been marked.
There was pandemonium in a polling station in Weavers Ward when voters complained that an officer was pointing out Livingstone’s name in particualr and then checking the ballot.
He was not slung out until early evening
115 So you buying?
No, I’m not with Mike on this one, not yet anyway. The LibDems have to demonstrate that they can reach and indeed exceed the 20% level of support. This becomes more likely, however, should Labour’s core support start to erode and those previous diehards leaving the party are surely far more likely to lean towards the LibDems than the Tories.
Do Labour hope to raise the Ukip vote in council elections by having them on the same day ? Can’t be good for the LDs - their council vote share may drop as eurosceptics may not split their vote.
121 Are the Conservatives making a serious effort to rebuild in Barking. Many were thinking the BNP could move into clear 2nd next time but with a tag team of Labour nationally and Margaret Hodge all sorts of alarming scenarios came into play if there was no other party pitching in as an alternative to Labour.
@122:
and those previous diehards leaving the party are surely far more likely to lean towards the LibDems than the Tories.
Do you have any hard evidence for this, or is it a gut thing?
“‘Labour’s view is that the fewer people who vote, the better.’
Unless it comes to Europe, when the ideal position, for Labour, is no one voting AT ALL.
I also would like to compliment Nick Palmer on his sensible vote last night, and his unusually bold remarks this morning.
However it just goes to show how bad things have got: when you have to congratulate an MP for simply behaving with basic decency and honesty, rather than blatantly ripping off the taxpayer.
A couple of days ago I compared New Labour to Napoleon’s army retreating from Moscow.
I thought, when I made that comparison, that Labour was on the initial stage of that retreat: i.e. the great leader Blair/Napoleon has fled back to Paris, leaving the Grande Armee in the charge of a useless junior - but the experienced officers are still holding it together, keeping the divisions in line, despite the air of impending defeat.
Now I realise they are much further down the road to Vilnius. The Russian winter of a faltering economy has kicked in. They are being harried by the cossacks of Cameron’s revitalised Tories. And so, as they pass Smolensk (AKA Henley), true anarchy has arrived.
The scene is wretchedly poignant. The officers are loaded down with booty from Moscow - ermines and tapestries, fine carriages and silverware - but all this greed is actually making things worse, as they sink into the Belarussian marshes.
Will Glasgow East be their crossing of the river Berizina?
120. fair enough, if not enough is being done - but the idea of having postal voting is sound. after all what could be a less reliable democratic result than one with a very low turnout?
and as for trying to blame muslims for the problem… i don’t know what to say. although why should postal voting be any different from attending the ballot box?
125 Martin - no evidence, just simple logic.
It would seem that the more committed previous Labour supporters are likely to opt for another left of centre party than to switch to the Tories. No?
121. Was he also removing the ’spoilt’ ballots? To speed up the count, of course.
@128:
Well, you might think that. However, recent polling does not seem to be bearing this out. The ongoing Labour collapse seems to be benefitting the Tories almost exclsuively.
@129:
A noble act of self-sacrifice.
117. Because they are two very separate elections, using differing electoral systems. Only a minority of the electorate will be voting in the locals in 2009 - they will be held only in England, but none in London, the Mets nor nearly all the Unitaries. Furthermore, I believe the decision on this should be influenced entirely by those who live in the areas concerned. Who is it supposed to be convenient for? Certainly I would not run elections for the convenience of the administrators, only the electors.
123. i would suggest that you imagine a survey of people who pla nto vote but are too disinterested to consider splitting their vote for 2 different elections:
who runs the local council?
who sits in Brussels?
the former would surely win by a very wide margin. followed probably by a possible national “protest vote”. followed by europe.
109 - To me, it seems very high risk. Labour polling has recently been steadying or increasing (not that you’d notice from the media coverage). Lib Dem polling has been flatlining or falling. There is evidence from Henley that the Tories can do well against the Lib Dems, and not much evidence yet that the Lib Dems can do well against Labour. While I see the logic you put forward, even in these dark days for Labour, it’s hard to imagine it coming true.
Maybe Labour’s polling will turn down again - there hasn’t been much good news for them. I must say I can’t see it. I suspect we have reached the nadir, and that we shall bump along the bottom for as long as Gordon Brown remains leader.
121 in my ward the council officers had to explain the process to many voters . I was telling outside but within earshot . As voters asked for help they were told you have one vote for the mayor , one for the local MP and one for the party . When I went in to vote myself I explained that there was no vote for the local MP but for the London assembly member . They said ” yes thats right - but we find it too complicated to explain what the London assembly is , people are more familar with the term MP “
132. surely the convenience coincides? the extra cost and hassle of running or attending 2 elections rather than one surely far outweighs any additional complexity from having lots of ballot papers?
@132:
Do you see there being any actual harm done by having the Euros and the Council elections on the same day?
If not, then what’s to lose by making things more convenient for a subset of the electorate by aligining them?
Recess Monkey is pointing out that Laurence Robertson MP is employing both his wife and mistress!!
“I employ my wife, Susan Robertson (from whom I am separated) as Secretary. I employ my partner, Anne Marie Adams, as part-time Secretary.”
136. Are you saying democracy comes down to costs? In any case, there will have to be two separate counts which is where a substantial part of the money goes. Also the ballots will have to be segregated before the County Council count can start - extra work. Whilst the experince in Scotland showed confusion by having differing electoral sysyems on the same day.
137 - It is also cheaper as the cost of staffing polling places would be greater on two separate election days than if there was one election day.
138 - The weekly staff meeting must be interesting to behold…
81. 65. Go for it, Morus! And don’t worry about the independents - the ‘independent’ MP for Blaenau Gwent was also in the ‘Aye’ lobby last night.
@139:
No, obviously not. But there’s no reason for elections to cost more than they need to.
What actual material harm do you feel is caused by having the two elections on the same day?
137. Surely it is responsibility of those who want to change the date of the County Council elections to provide adequate justification for the change, not the other way round. So far they have not done it and are now giving spurious reasons.
139. it doesn’t come down to cost but it seems blindingly obvious that cheaper and less time = better. not to mention increased turnout due to people who are only interested in one or the other.
try to remember working people (as opposed to political anoraks) who squeeze in a trip to the ballot box to cast their vote on the way to/from work. “time is money”.
122. Peter there is little or no evidence that more Labour rejectors will turn to the Lib Dems than the Tories. The evidence so far from the opinion polls especially “forced choice” questions and the recent by-elections is that the Tories will pick up a large, possibly majority, share of these votes.
141
Sorry I’m off now, the Vicar has just popped in he’s a bit strapped for cash, needs to borrow a few grand!!
145. So why have we increased the number of elected bodies - Scottish and Welsh devolution, Mayors and London ASssembly, increased number of town Councils etc - if time = money. It is done to maintain and supposedly improve democracy. We have made postal voting dramatically easier for anyone who finds it too demanding to call in at the polling station. That incidently increases the cost of elections. The problem with postal voting is the controls over it - not the principle.
146. yep, it seems obvious that Lab voters would switch to LD because of the similar ideological angle but in truth, most people are not voting on ideology, they might have a “didn’t like that Mrs. Thatcher” viewpoint, but they are still likely to vote against perceived incompetent government and in favour of their direct opposition.
not to mention any ideological opinions are formed (and changed) absolutely glacially for the average member of the public (especially the older ones who are likely to vote and have seen it all). many people asked for the quintessential difference between Con and Lab will (much like Martin Day actually) still view stuff like the miner’s strike and the ERM as key dividing lines.
149, the ERM? Both parties were in favour of it.
With respect to holding Council elections and EU elections together might be worth looking at the Gould report into the Scottish 2007 Election farce which had this to say about combined elections and turnout.
All this considered, we are convinced that combined elections are not only a disservice to the local councils and candidates but also to the electorate as well. In essence, the local government elections are not simply about ensuring a reasonable number of voters show up at the polls on polling day.
More important is that they engage with the campaign in a meaningful manner and make a knowledgeable decision on their ballot paper. Therefore, we recommend separating the Scottish parliamentary and local government elections, preferably by a period of about two years. This recommendation does not mean that concerns about voter turnout should be set aside.
Institutions that are concerned about voter turnout, including the Electoral Commission, political parties and other organisations, should continue with their efforts to encourage voters to exercise their right to vote. We recommend that initiatives in other countries – where there have been significant increases in advance voting while turnout at polling stations has diminished – are explored.
It also has a number of other recommendations about combined elections particularly if the voting systems are different.
148. that is confusing three issues though. I am not saying we should make people vote the same way in local and euro elections, just that their time needs to be used efficiently or they will choose not to give it to the process at all.
the postal voting thing I think everyone roughly agrees(?) that it is a good idea but needs urgently to be improved. I don’t personally feel that slagging off muslims that happen to use and abuse the system like everyone else is a good idea, obviously one or two on here do.
Antifrank 134. I am not sure that Henley showed anything particularly other than how unpopular the Labour Govt is at the moment.
I am intrigued by your argument that Labour are going up in the polls and the Lib Dems are flatlining. The Lib Dems seem to have faired better in the telephone polls such as ICM and Populus, where they are polling at similar levels to Jan-March 2005 i.e. 19%-21%, but are doing worse in YouGov (& BPIX) which seems to transpose about 4% of that vote to the Tory column.
I think there are mixed messages when it comes to how the Tories will fare in Lib Dem held seats. Now obviously it would be a foolish Lib Dem who would think that they are not in danger from the Tory revival. But evidence from local elections would suggest that the Lib Dems do have the ability to do alright against the Tories where they are defending. And to an extent, the level as to which way it will go is dependent on that floating 4% between the internet polls and the telephone polls.
150. I am not saying the view is logical, by the way, but that is how opinions form. Reaction to the occasional big news event that actually sticks in the memory is unlikely to be formed by looking at the voting record of who went against it.
The only (non-political) people I have ever heard bring up the ERM blame it on the governing party at the time, just as the Iraq war will always be blamed on Tony Blair. Sort of a fair cop, I think.
re 118 Ed it is only anti-lab because it is this government which
a) changed a system which was working fine and allowed those who couldn’t get to the polling station to get a vote
b) ignored all the opposition concerns at the time
c) ignores a mountain of evidence showing that their new system is rife for fraud
d) takes a we’re-not-listening atttitude to the Electoral Commission/High Court judges when it points it out
e) seems to think that increased turnout is justified even with widespread fraud.
You are right though that all parties are at it. And why not too when it’s so easy?
Did I get that right? The delightful Shaun Woodward voted against the rule-change? One of the wealthiest MPs in the country? Maybe all that RENT he pays is proving something of a financial encumbrance.
I seem to recall that they postponed the County Council elections by one month when Foot & Mouth was a problem, which meant that they took place on the same day as the Euros. There were no complaints at the time.
95: ‘Interesting piece on the background to the, ‘Lewis’ story by Dave Hill.’
Sorry, I don’t find it interesting in the slightest. The bloke’s just gone throught the papers making a note of phrases containing the word ’sex’: ’sex abuse’, ’sexual harassment’, ’sexual impropriety’, ’sexual misconduct’, sexual past’. The he says, ‘Of course, all these terms are general ones. No one has made specific allegations about sexual wrong doing by Lewis…’ Cutting stuff
Just been announced that Charles Wheeler has died.
Great Shame. I always thought him an exceptional correspondent.
155. isn’t the loophole just that anyone can alter the electoral roll for their house?
According to Guido, Cameron is taking legal advice on deselecting MEPs (no details yet) and Gordon is making phone calls again - to Lab heavyweights in Scotland pleading with them to stand in the by-election. They said no.
I thought this was supposed to be the quiet period in the political calendar?
If anything it getting more interesting and fraught than it has for a long time.
159. And Boris’s father in law.
161, politically, the whole world went mental the moment Brown got into Number 10.
Failed terrorism, enormous floods, elections on and off and lost by landslides, 25m data, 10p tax, Lisbon Treaty, sleaze galore.
48 Mark Senior. Can you turn this diverse sample into share movements, please? They look like an interesting set of results.
@161:
It’s a bit late for that, Dave. You shouldn’t have foisted the idiotic MEP toplisting scheme on us, then we would have deselected them for you: clean, painless, no questions asked.
159. Great journalist, the last of the old school.
Boris Johnson’s father-in-law, too…
153 - A charismatic Tory MP with a national presence resigned to take up a new role. His selected replacement was uncharismatic and, we were told day in day out by many on here, not very good. The Lib Dems, by-election specialists by common consent, threw their resources at the campaign. What happened? There was a swing to the Tories. If that is what happens when the Lib Dems are campaigning on their most favoured territory, it bodes very ill for them in the less favourable terrain of a general election. In some ways the Henley result was worse for the Lib Dems than for Labour.
The last three YouGov ratings for Labour have been 23, 25, 28. The other polls seem to be floating around 25% for the last month. Pretty lousy figures for Labour, but there is no real evidence yet that they are continuing to decline. They might, of course, but the evidence isn’t there yet.
Does anyone know the point at issue between the NAO and the Treasury? Is it simply a matter of presentational/classification as regards Northern Rock? If so, although somewhat embarrassing for the Government, it’s probably really not that big a deal.
Should, however, the NAO have started sticking their nose into NR’s and therefore the Treasury’s bad debt exposure, then that would be a matter of infinitely greater political magnitude.
In fact, this is precisely what the NAO should be looking at - over recent months most the major UK banks have announced multi-billion pound exposures on their loan books and there’s no way that Northern Rock has not been similarly affected.
It’s very important that we are kept fully up to date with just how much the Government’s action in nationalising Northern Rock is costing the British taxpayer.
The ‘John Lewis’ vote is obviously already having an effect. According to the Telegraph, Department store operator John Lewis Partnership saw sales slump by 8.3pc over the week to June 28, with some of its large out-of-town shops seeing sales fall by as much as 25pc.
The retailer said that shopping centres in the south of England fared particularly badly. Sales at the retailer have now dropped for seven out of the last eight weeks.
The bad figures from John Lewis back up claims by Sir Stuart Rose, the Marks & Spencer chairman, that the downturn affecting retailers is market-wide and deep-rooted. Although sales at Waitrose, the supermarket chain owned by John Lewis, were up by 3pc over the week.
I can’t believe Gordon Brown didn’t nother to turn up and vote to limit MP’s expense’s? Where the hell was he? Why did he allow Cabinet minister like the soon to be Ex-Home Sec Jackie Smith to rebel? Does this idiot have ANY authority with his party and government?
170. He used his old chancellor tactic, went AWOL. Thing is as PM that doesn’t go down too well.
163. You forgot the Foot & Mouth.
This has been presented as a triumph for Gordon; odd that, ‘cos it was the Treasury that refused to fund badly needed upgrades and maintenance highlighted in a report made about 5 years earlier. Much easier to try and shuffle off the blame onto Merial, the private contractor on site, which the MSM kept referring to as an American company (unspoken sub-text - chasing profits at the expense of safety). Didn’t work - and Merial is an interesting set-up:
1. T’aint strictly speaking a US company, even though it’s HQ is there…
it’s a 50:50 joint venture between US Merck (drugs) and the French company Rhone Merieux (vaccines).
2. It’s at Pirbright because the gov. estab. declined to become a designated holder of vaccines for the EU. So back in 1999 the EU declared that Merial would be licensed stockholders of F&M vaccines for the EU and that Pirbright would be the designated site - one of just 3 Europe-wide.
Call me cynical, but could it be that Les Crapauds have finagled themselves a nice bit of EU business - and also fixed it so that any downside risk is carried by Les Rosbifs?
Surely not?
170, it’s not that surprising, surely. Brown’s well-known as Macavity, and for cowardice. It would be more surprising if he had turned up.
Very bad to have some 30 odd ministers lining up behind the gravy train though.
O/T I see in PMQs Brown stated that “less than 1% of prisoners released within 18 days of their due date have committed crimes in that time”. How can he say that when three out of four crimes are never solved!
124 Chadwell Heath’s in Dagenham. It’s not really a white working class ward, but, rather, lower middle class. It used to be represented by Residents, and then I think the Conservatives won one of the three seats in 2002, but lost in 2006, due to a big vote for an independent and UKIP. It’s a very good Conservative result, but not that surprising in view of the ward’s history.
It’s not one of the BNP’s stronger wards in Dagenham and 25% is well above what they got in the London Assembly election.
@175:
It’s not really a white working class ward, but, rather, lower middle class.
It didn’t feel that way canvassing there, I can assure you. It felt solid WWC through and through.
134. No Lbour is not going to bumb along as now. I am with 121 ‘Will Glasgow East be their crossing of the river Berizina?’ They are now a 1970’s union-funded socialist group. Complete oblivion beckons.
175 It seems highly likely, in the light of this, and the London Assembly results, that Labour will lose control of Barking & Dagenham council in 2010. I’d guess the Conservatives will win around half a dozen council seats, and Labour and the BNP 20-25 each.
In parts, certainly, but levels of owner-occupation are higher than average for the borough, and certainly higher than in the typical BNP-voting ward.
Bradford & Bingley down over 10% this morning. HBOS again below its “rights” price.
I have done a quick tally of the elections listed by Senior at 48, and they are remarkably close to current polls. In the 3 constituents where all 3 main parties stood yesterday and previously, the % are (prev. in brackets) Con 44%(37%) Lab24%(34%) LD19%(18%).Where Con. and Lab. stood both times,the % are Con 35%(34%) Lab 23%(31%).Apologies for any math. errors - quite possible.
O/T. Yippee! But could be an under-estimate. 4 - 7 years could be enough - and that’s too long IMO.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23508227-details/BBC+licence+fee+%27will+be+gone+in+a+decade%27/article.do
179 Are the Conservatives trying toi rebuild in Barking and if they do does that help hinder BNP advances by providing an alternative for Labour voters.
167. I think that you are (deliberately, maybe?) misunderstanding me. I am saying that I do not think that a situation like Henley has much bearing on Tory challenges in Lib Dem seats. It is clear that in the present climate the Liberal Democrats are going to struggle to make any headway in Tory held seats. It does not necessarily follow that Tories are going to easily make headway in Lib Dem held seats. i.e. the Lib Dems did well against Tory challenges in the local elections in places like Eastleigh and Cheltenham despite the national trends (or as part of the national trends).
Secondly, I have not disagreed that Labour are likely to recover somewhat from where they are at the moment. But they have to gain 10% in order to merely get back to their 2005 levels, which at present seems unlikely.
So for argument’s sake, say we use ICM as our guide, and say Labour get 6% back in the next 18 months taking them to the low 30s, then that is most likely to come from the Tories, so say 5% from them nationally to around 40%. The Lib Dems have traditionally gained between 2.5% and 4% during a campaign. So say we take the lower end of that, that would give them around 22% to 23% (around what they got last time). It is quite conceivable in this situation (Con 40%, Lab 31%, LD 23%) that the Liberal Democrats will hold on to quite a few of their seats where the Tories are challenging, and be in a position to nick a few Labour seats, putting them around the same, or slightly higher than 2005.
However, the same scenario using YouGov as our guide and the final scores would be more like Con 44% Lab 34% Lib Dem 18%. In that situation then it is likely that the Tories would take quite a few Lib Dem seats, and Labour would hold onto most where the Lib Dems are challenging.
So my point is, that that 4% difference between Con & Lib Dem found using the two methodologies is really very important to the outcome of the next General Election. Henley is simply not a good guide with regards to this.
178 - That actually requires the BNP finding 20-25 decent candidates that they can put up and would be happy to have serve as Cllrs though…
183 I don’t think the Conservatives are at all active in Barking, or in the three Dagenham wards that come into Barking, but they’re fairly strong in other parts of Dagenham, and following the boundary changes, Dagenham & Rainham must now be considered a target seat.
Non-Labour voters in this borough seem to be switching to whichever party is best placed to beat Labour. In most wards, that means the BNP, in some others (and the London mayoralty) the Conservatives.
Final result from yesterday from this morning’s count in a keenly fought LibDem/Conservative parliamentary marginal
Mid Sussex DC Burgess Hill Franklands double vacancy 2 LibDem holds
LibDem 876/829 Con 561/501 Green 65 Lab 40
2007 result LibDem 750/709 Con 485/462 Lab 116
Both LibDem and Conservatives through everything into this contest and yesterday local Conservatives were hoping they had gained 1 of the 2 seats . They will be disappointed to have made no impression on the LibDem majority .
oops threw not through
No doubt entirely true and not made up news from Holy Moly:
‘ The European cup final is as big an event here in Tokyo as it is anywhere in Europe and all of the gaijin bars were packed solid. Trouble was that kickoff wasn’t until about 4am - which means that most people were pissed well before the match had even started.
One particular group of gaijin [foreigners] in Lime Bar (a well known sports bar in Roppongi) consisted of some visiting British and South African politicos.
As the game got underway one of them was heard loudly and repeatedly stating he was supporting Spain as “I could never support the f*cking Germans.” Evidently though he didn’t feel that his message had got across so he grabbed a microphone and said for the benefit of everyone, “The governments of Great Britain and South Africa are supporting Spain and not the f*cking Germans” - which is odd since the Conservative party aren’t in government.
Step forward Graham Stuart MP (nope, us neither). ‘
Further to my point at 184, see Mark Senior’s post at 187.
157. The county elections were moved by a month in 2001, to be held concurrently with the general election (which was presumably Blair’s plan anyway, but with the election in May rather than June).
The Euros were on the same day as the locals in 2004 - something I well remember as we had a mandatory all-postal election in Yorkshire, as in three other regions.
I don’t see any problem with legislation that would always require local elections held in the same year as the European elections to take place in June, on the same day as the Euros. There are obvious administrative savings, and as the last three county counil elections have taken place concurrent with the general elections, the argument about ‘insufficient focus’ being able to be given to one or the other doesn’t seem to have been that important in the past (rightly so IMO - people are perfectly capable of making two decisions at once).
@191:
Well, I’d rather we’d not have to fight the London Boroughs on the same day as the next general election, but since it’s all but guaranteed now, we’ll have to drink it up.
Mention has been made of cost savings for local authorities in holding the elections on the same day, but is it not pertinent that Labour are seriously strapped for cash to run *any* elections, and that holding both on the same day will save them money?
157. No the County Council elections were held on the same day as the General Election. That was a necessity. The original plan was for the General Election to be held on the same day as the County Council elec tions - the first Thursday of May 2001.
Mike, I agree the goings-on at the Treasury has the potential to be come a major issue. I wonder if it will hasten the demise of Darling and his replacement by Balls. Although initially that might be seen as Brown strengthening his position by putting his right-hand man into a key role, I wonder if it would spell trouble in the long term. Brown likes to meddle especially as he has a legacy he wants to defend, and Balls might come to resent the interference. Darling comes across as long-suffering and mild-mannered, whereas Balls is hard-talking, explosive, opinionated, believes matters turned pear-shaped at the Treasury once he left, and also thinks Brown’s best economic moves were actually his ideas.
Thatcher was weakened by her run-in with Lawson, which was the prelude to her demise. I wonder if Balls moving to the Treasury would cause similar problems for Brown.
Back on the badgers thing. I understand Nick Palmer’s position, but it is simply wrong. The people he has been talking to might be scientists but they are definitely not experts.
Would he fancy a fact finding trip up into Cumbria to see for himself ?
167 antifrank “In some ways the Henley result was worse for the Lib Dems than for Labour.”
Yes and the LDs are largely in denial about it. LD gains at parliamentary by elections are now history. They will gain none this side of the next GE.
195. Balls? It’s as if Labour WANT to lose the next election.
Interesting article in today’s PR Week from Labour blogger Alex Hilton - don’t know if it’s on line, but his analysis of Glasgow East concludes:
‘Labour faces the very real prospect of losing one of the safest seats in Britain and doing so would make his (Brown’s) continuing leadership untenable’.
Ouch!
Don’t know if it’s already been covered, but the Daily Mash have another great take on expenses…
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/mps-think-you-must-be-some-kind-of-twat-200806261049/
This just makes me laugh - so I’m posting it again:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/labour-unveils-plan-to-lose-last-remaining-votes-20080527978/
184 - I certainly am not deliberately misunderstanding you. I absolutely take your point that a Lib Dem challenge in a Tory seat is not the same as a Tory challenge in a Lib Dem seat. I also agree that 4% difference in the Lib Dem national tally would make a big difference to the Lib Dem result (though that might be the difference between catastrophe and serious setback).
Where I part company from you is in your analysis of what comes next. At the last election, the Conservatives got 50% more votes than the Lib Dems. At present, the Tories are polling more than double what the Lib Dems poll. Unlike you, I see no reason at present why the Tory tally should necessarily go down that much. I am unclear why Lib Dems so chirpily assume that their incumbents can defy political gravity completely. The London Assembly elections show how badly Lib Dems can suffer when they appear irrelevant.
You put forward different scenarios. Your 40: 31: 23 scenario seems very optimistic to me, because it assumes that the Tories are the only major party to lose votes from current polling while both Labour and the Lib Dems gain votes. It seems far more likely to me either that Labour will pull votes from both Tories and Lib Dems or that the Lib Dems will stay static, with a straight swing from Tories to Labour.
A much more likely scenario than the one you give is one where the Tories and Labour are involved in a two-horse race. In those circumstances, the Lib Dems risk being squeezed badly. The election that the Lib Dems need to be having a very careful inquest into is the London Assembly election. It could be ominous.
201 The LibDem performance at the 2005 GE bore no relationship to the LibDem Assembly election results in 2004 ( and the Conservative performance not a great deal of relationship either ) . You would have been making a similar post back in 2004 as you have today .
127 - Low turnout is because of how politicians are viewed, as in poorly; postal voting, with all of the inherent opportunities for corruption, does not change that view, it just makes it worse.
Postal voting should be made more difficult and elections should be held at weekends instead. Frankly, if labour are blundering ahead with it despite all the evidemce of problems, just because they think its a partisan issue and complaints are because of that, is unbelievable. It is not a partisan issue it is an issue of how politics is seen as dirty and corrupt.
201 You should be careful to note the caveats for London though. At the Mayoral contest it was quite literally a two Horse race with two very well known horses rather than lots of separate horse races that in turn picked the Mayor. Second the LD’s had no GLA Constituency members which are vast in comparison with Westminster so no incumbency. All this shouldn’t detract from a strong Tory performance in London overall at the General Election but there are risks extrapolating that to the whole Country on a different system.
3. Quite so.
Here is the Guardian report on the horrific murders of the French students in New Cross:
“Police say one witness reported a white man running away from the scene soon after the blaze broke out…”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/04/knifecrime.ukcrime
Here is the Guardian report on the very latest lethal stabbing, this time of Shakilus Townsend, in south London:
“[one witness called] Bamina said she saw a gang of four or five boys aged 15 to 19 with scarves covering their faces. One was carrying a baseball bat.”
Here is the Telegraph report on the same Shakilus Townsend murder:
“Residents said a group of about six black males and a mixed race female, dressed in hooded tops with scarves and balaclavas chased Shakilus around Beluah Crescent on bicycles.
A witness said the gang shouted “Get him, he’s over there” before stabbing him four times in the chest. ”
It therefore seems pretty clear that black youths were responsible for the horrible murder of Shakilus Townsend in south London. Yet the Guardian - on grounds of “taste”? - refuses to mention this salient fact.
Yet the Guardian is quite happy to cite the race of a man just seen running away from another horrible crime scene - but then, that man is “white”.
One rule for whitey, another for precious ethnic minorities.
Lefties. Yeuchhh.
202 - I am afraid that you have missed my point. My point is not that I expect to read across from London Assembly results to general election results (that category error is usually made by certain Lib Dems in relation to local election results - I shall not name names!). My point is that the type of race that was conducted there might well be the type of race that emerges at the next general election, and the Lib Dems might be left behind as a result.
200 rofl Casino both articles are hysterical. Thanks for posting.
O/T but this is a wretched article from Peter Oborne.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-enemy-within-fear-of-islam-britains-new-disease-859996.html
201. at the general election, this will simply not occur. there are no seats of interest to the LDs that are a two horse race between Lab and Con. LDs will be hoping to hold and gain seats against Lab in the north, and hold firm against Con in the south.
Henley did not show much, but the swing was in fact negligibly towards the LDs, so LDs holding firm against Con in the south is still a plausible outcome.
This hypothesis still needs to be tested in a closer seat or one where the LDs are defending.
206 The local election results in C&N and Henley were in fact a very predictor of the byelection results . There are plenty of Conservative posters on the vote-2007 and Anthony’s sites who are reading across directly from the Assembly results to GE results .
192. You would rather not fight the London local elections on the same day as the General Election but I do you think it is OK for us in the sticks to have our County election on the same day as the Euro’s.
202. But there was a close correlation between the 2008 locals and Crewe & Nantwich and the 2007 locals and Henley.
203. anyone can defraud the ballot box system though, all you have to do is register a few extra people at your house next time the form comes through. it is illegal, but so is postal vote fraud. the whole system depends on trust either way.
it is also biased to prevent valid votes from people who fraudulently claim single person’s discount on council tax.
209 - There was a +0.8% swing to the Tories. The Lib Dem vote increased, but the Tory vote increased more.
As for your main point, keep hoping.
213. sorry my mistake - but still very small swing that, if repeated, would not take many seats. massive MoE though. more data would be nice.
@208:
Essentially, Peter Oborne is drawing moral equivalence between being suspicious of radical Islamism, and pushing bloody pigs trotters through a Muslim family’s letter box.
What an grotesque twat.
“the whole system depends on trust either way.”
It doesn’t have to, people only think they can get away with it because officials don’t check too thoroughly. Beef up the penalties and police it thoroughly. If the laws are there then why isn’t government making sure they are applied properly?
The best way to increase turnout, if it is going to increase, is to vote over two days on weekends. At least we still have voting with a paper trail though, some US states electoral practices are verging on the criminal.
anyone awaiting their SATS results?
216. What is the problem with voting on Saturday in one day.
214 - As I noted originally, Henley was an election in the Lib Dems’ preferred format (by-elections) with a national figure leaving the seat voluntarily to be replaced by a candidate who was - we were repeatedly told - unimpressive. Any swing to the Tories in such circumstances was bad news for the Lib Dems, and considerably worse than the raw 0.8% swing would suggest. I would like to see the Lib Dems do quite well at the next election, but they will need to take a drastic change of course if that is going to happen. Their activists’ unwillingness to face up to changed circumstances is their biggest problem of all.
219 There was an awful lot of LibDem glee at the prospect of a by-election in Henley. Their attitude might best have been described as “Bring it on!” - with a similar hubris-smashing outcome to that experienced when President Bush said it.
218 - I just think that two day (or day and a half, finishing at Sunday 7pm) voting would help turnout. It also gets around any complaints from religious hardliners over using a holy day to vote.
218. Some councils used to vote on Saturdays back in the 1960’s but it was cahnged to Thursdays - to make it more convenient and to increase turnout!!!
172- b.
“Call me cynical, but could it be that Les Crapauds have finagled themselves a nice bit of EU business - and also fixed it so that any downside risk is carried by Les Rosbifs?
Surely not?”
A nice entry in the challenge for the most ludicrous conspiracy theory award.
221 Is it Judaism Saturday voting would affect. If not best get it over with in 1 day otherwise you get the risk as in Countries spread over several time zones of leaks and reports from other areas beginning to influence other voters yet to cast their ballot.
223. Of course! What would life be without a conspiracy theory… or three?
223 Every country has its bigots. Don’t worry about it Chris. Most of this anti-French rubbish just comes from jealousy.
Jealousy that a country which is so much like our own nevertheless seems to be able to do everything with that bit more style and panache than we do! (”Panache” - see we don’t even have an English word for it, we are so poor at it)
224 Yes. Judaism would frown on Saturday voting. Why not have it on Sunday - it seem acceptable to Catholic countries. Maybe because priests can lead their congregations straight from sermon to ballot box, after a pep talk on who to vote for!
226- But Britain also has a lot of things France does not, pb.com being a good example!
226. Jealous? Of France?………interesting theory.
219. special circumstances or not, the result proves very little.
if you think that byelection swings are an indicator for GEs, then you can’t read much into the results.
on the other hand, if you want to insist that this was in some way special for the LDs, that they put unusual work into it, that their candidate was unusually good according to them and that should be believed, etc. etc. etc.
then you can’t read much into the results either.
The French didnt have a word for panache either. A panache is the plume on top of King Henri IV of France’s helmet. “Ralliez-vous à mon panache blanc”
226. Seems every country has its creeps, too.
No, I’m not anti-French. I’ll just point out that the French are very logical and pragmatic - both desirable traits. This vaccine arrangement has overtones of both characteristics.
216. but given that it does, why single out postal vote fraud? that could just as easily be cracked down on.
i think you may just have to accept that a tiny minority of dishonest people will always cheat any system, but in the grand scheme of things this has negligible effect - unless turnout is really low.
231- Icarus
Wrong, we do have a word “panache” - Here is the definition, just for your eyes:
PANACHE, subst. masc.
A. −Grande plume ou bouquet de plumes, souvent de couleurs diverses, liées à la base et s’épanouissant librement, utilisé(e) comme ornement. Panache flottant; panache de plumes, en plumes d’autruche, de paon.
B. par analogie (avec la forme, la légèreté, l’éclat d’un panache). Ce qui surmonte ou couronne quelque chose, flotte ou ondoie.
C par analogie région. (Canada). Bois d’orignal, de cerf ou de chevreuil.
D- par métonymie [P.réf. à la mode d'orner de plumes les casques des guerriers depuis l'Antiquité (v. supra A 2)].1. Ce qui dénote l’élégance virile et la fière allure du guerrier, la vaillance chevaleresque, la bravoure spectaculaire ou héroïque.
You are refering to the D definition. If you can read French, you’ll see that this sense is much more ancient than the Henri IV reference
230 - Bravo, the Lib Dems have officially adopted the approach of Wellington, as described in 1066 and All That:
“The second part of the Napoleonic War was fought in Spain and Portugal and was called the Gorilla War on account of the primitive Spanish method of fighting.[Picture]. Wellington became so impatient with the slow movements of the French troops that he occupied himself drawing imaginary lines all over Portugal and thus marking off the fighting zone; he made a rule that defeats beyond these lines did not count, while any French army that came his side of them was out of bounds. Having thus insured himself against disaster, Wellington won startling victories at Devalera, Albumia, Salamanda, etc.”
@234:
“Ce qui dénote l’élégance virile et la fière allure du guerrier, la vaillance chevaleresque, la bravoure spectaculaire ou héroïque.”
C’est moi!
232- Strange, as most Frenchmen, I have always considered pragmatism as an anglo-saxon concept.
236- Je n’en doute pas.
New thread - Will Jill’s Facebook campaign get her second place?
afternoon all, sorry not got time to look back for the individual posting numbers so hope you will all make sense of the following:
Stuart (Dickson) do you agree that FRances Curran standing for the SSP is likely to do far more damage to Labour than to the SNP whereas Tommy Sheridan would take more SNP switchers from Labour? SNP selecting Mason is a very +ve move.
Re Nick Palmer and the Snouts in troughs vote, well done Nick. Did anyone else see Kate Hoey on the SKY News paper review? She was not simply embarrassed but angry at her mainly Labour colleagues for just being so out of touch. Were it not for the fact she holds such a safe Labour seat,
Kate is sounding more like a Cameronian every day. She would make a wonderful Tory sports minister and just imagine her running the Olympics programme rather than Tessa Jowell who doesn’t even know how many mortgages her husband takes out in their joint names!
Later on Diane Abbot who has always been an apologist for Gordon Brown was equally flumoxed by the behaviour of her colleagues and clearly the failure of one “G Brown” to vote and his Home Secretary and at least 2 other cabinet ministers voting for the continued John Lewis list is going to run and run.
For anyone who saw Question Time from Scotland, David Cairns who batted for Labour is one of the most able Scottish Labour MPs. A former priest, he gets sent out to defend both Browns, Gordon and Des, when Labour is getting flack in Scotland. I thought Andrew Lansley did well to refuse to comment on matters which as he said were for Scottish MSPs not Westminster ones and Nicola Sturgeon looked and sounded every inch the Deputy First Minister. The comedian whom I had never heard of was an utter idiot and Emma Nicolson whom I remember when she was Margaret Thatcher’s Tory vice-chairman and used to come to Scotland, hadn’t changed, a Margaret Thatcher Mark II who sounds and looks like everyone’s posh auntie.
237. Really? Paul Johnson in his “The Offshore Islanders” reckoned that historically the English character was a combination of xenophobia and constructive hypocrisy. Seems about right….
@ 35 - re “social unrest” I have been saying this to friends and colleagues for a while and not one of them can see it coming.
Turnout would be greater if elections were held on Friday and Saturday making the count a great Saturday late night TV spectacle.
There is some problems with having different elections on the same day as the anecdote about the London Assembly voting indicates.
But very similar voting, such a Westminster and the Euros, or Westminster and the Scottish parliamentary for example would seem to be in the same mould. I am not at all sure about the Euros and locals. Chalk and cheese?
The problem wit the current alignment of the locals as Euros, however, is not the suitability of the match but that it is being done to supposedly increase turnout, which at the same time seems not to be a priority in Glasgow where the timing of the by election was set to reduce the turnout.
Treasury accounts qualified? Well, surely we are one step further towards our complete assimilation into the EU then. Their accounts have been qualified for years. In fact, have they ever not been?!
Off-topic: Are the BBC formally the spokespersons for New Labour…?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7490041.stm
These contracts have already been announced in the MSM, and discussed at length on sites such as the World Affairs Board and the Defence Forum. How low will al-Beeb go to generate news and positive spin for their Scottish overlords…?
Rant over….