What are the politics of GB’s Olympic successes?
August 17th, 2008
Are there dangers in Labour claiming the credit?
After more extraordinary sessions for the British teams in the Olympic games and it was inevitable, I suppose, that a politician should pop up and claim that they did it.
So step forward minister, Andy Burnham, who’s been arguing on SkyNews that a lot of the success is down to the Labour government.
But it’s dangerous stuff trying to claim credit in this way. Firstly it appears to detract from the performances of the athletes in Beijing themselves and secondly it raises the question - where did the money come from that has made this happen?
For, no doubt, the Tories will be arguing that it was John Major’s pet project, the National Lottery, which has transformed the funding.
The best thing that ministers should do is shut up and hope that the general uplift in the public mood will boost Labour.
Mike Smithson
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Ooh, I did an Easterross, but now it’s almost on topic:
The Other Medal Table
1 China 29 13 9 51
2 Great Britain 11 5 7 23
3 USA 10 19 22 51
4 Germany 9 5 6 20
5 Australia 8 10 11 29
6 Phelps 8 0 0 8
7 South Korea 7 9 4 20
8 Japan 7 5 6 18
Er, he actually said first of all that it was the athletes who deserve all the glory, that they are the ones that get up every morning at the crack of dawn, and so on.
The London Olympics will be the biggest farce ever. How much over budget will it be by the time the games open? Montreal only stopped paying for the 1976 games the other year. The whole thing should be kept in Greece and the same factilties used over and over again.
Quite. It’s the atheletes who have done the hard work not politicians.
O/T already. Re-posted from last thread. More grief for Caroline Spelman
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/article14649.ece
1. Looks like you made a mistake with the USA gold medal tally.
I think sport is a bad topic for the Tories. Their sale of playing fields was a terrible blow for cricket in particular and school sport in general. Having said that, I doubt sport is going to play any part in the result of the next election.
Can’t help but notice that, even just taking GBR, ITA, FRA, and GER from the table above, if we competed as the European Union we’d be winning…
2 - That’s ridiculous, I’m quite happy that the UK is hosting it in London, the Australians were made up with Sydney and I’m sure China is delighted to be showing it off in Beijing right now. If a city like Montreal doesn’t want it, they shouldn’t apply. Problem solved.
re 5. What say you SeanT?
Totally agree, Mike. Sporting success should be allowed to provide subliminal good-vibes for the government in charge - and if Labour are sensible they would do that: Just stay schtum and reap the one or two poll points that might accrue, as people feel slightly better about being British.
But actually crowing about it, like Burnham, just makes people wanna puke. Like claiming credit for someone else’s hard work. Ugh. Silly man. That will backfire.
BTW Mike, how’s your Dongle? Is it still a bit unreliable? Sometimes up sometimes down? Are you suffering whole days with no Dongle action at all? Despite the EU?
I hope you get it working. I’ve brought my Dongle with me to Thailand, and I’m using it almost every day. It’s fantastic.
Whatever effect will be extremely brief. In 2 weeks everyone will have moved on and back to the bread and butter issues.
At the time I wondered what might have happened if England had won Euro 96 instead of losing to Germany in that semi-final - again I think any effect would have been very brief, for just as now, the political die has been cast and no amount of sporting success will save Gordon now.
7. Er, I actually made this VERY SAME POINT about four days ago. Derrr. Was your Dongle not working then?
re 8. Good to hear your dongle is working well in Thailand. How much are you having to pay?
2 - Very sad to see some people still whinging about London hosting the Olympics. It will probably be beneficial economically but some things are worth more than money in any case.
On topic, sporting success has nothing to do with politics, the dark days of the seventies and eighties are hopefully seen as a warning to governments, from stopping athletes competing to state drugs regimes. We don’t want to go back to that place.
Yes that’s right, Mike. Best way for the ruling Party to exploit the mood is to stay quiet about it.
And btw, as a Londoner, I’ll be paying my fair whack towards the cost….and I don’t mind one bit.
Think UK sporting success is being evened out by UK weather failure.
BTW Northern Ireland suffering floods - no COBRA meeting?
5. If we competed as Eurasia we’d win by a landslide every time… what’s your point?
I’m not so sure about the value of Olympic success. A proportion of the winners will be found to be taking drugs, for example.
The problem is that the “Sports” culture of the government is Football, Football, Football. And even that doesn’t seem to extend to actually doing much to promote ordinary people actually playing it. The Wembley scandal was a perfect example of this - they promised to build a dual use stadia using lottery money. Then the FA said that they didn’t want athletics tainting their holy place. And kept the lottery funding that was *conditional* on the dual use. Anyone who complained got fired.
12. I have no problems with the Olympics. I do have a problem with a billion a day Triumph of Will event that lasts two weeks. If you want to spend x billion on regeneration, spend it on that. The things they are doing will mean that most of that money will be wasted. Regeneration is just the fig leaf.
5. thomas: Looks like you made a mistake with the USA gold medal tally.
I separated Phelps’ 8 golds from the USA’s 18 - if Phelps is his own country, the USA can’t count his medals!
I’m paying 2000 baht for “short time”, 3000 baht for “long time and washee washee”.
Only joking. I’m paying a £15 monthly fee, and I think £10 a day if I actually use it, there’s a limit on megabytage but its quite generous. Notice that this generous deal has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EU.
Incidentally, for people who travel a F of a lot, can I recommend the Slingbox? (BTW why do all these gizmos have suggestive names; the other day my sister bought the new Nokia Todger - I kid you not; and in Dixons last week I saw the new 3g Sony Ericsson phone - the Hairymuff - how stupid is that?) er anyway, the Slingbox - which really exists - plugs into yr satellite or digi receiver at home, then broadcasts the input on the internet - meaning you can watch all your home TV channels - all of Sky, BBC etc etc etc - anywhere in the world, if you have a broadband connexion.
Its amazing. I’m watching it now. The BBC Olympics coverage, from my home TV, while in Bangkok. It even has a facsmile remote control, like you use on your really telly. Highly recommended.
O/T - re Sports Personality betting:
If there was any justice, Rebecca Adlington would be a certainty. Athletics and Swimming are the blue riband sports of the Olympics competed in universally around the world. A double gold in Swimming really is an extraordinary achievement.
But I wonder if she may not win. My thinking is that of the final 10 who go to the public vote, at least 7 will be Olympic athletes and this could lead to the “Olympic vote” getting split.
Lewis Hamilton will have a big core vote if he wins the F1. I think in a head to head vote just between the two of them Adlington would win but with the Olympic vote split Hamilton could win.
Obama at the faith forum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsmAu1UbmPM&feature=related
I think that it is very poor form for Labour indeed to try and hyjack individual and team performances in this way. If we look at Labour substance on funding: Labour opposed the introduction on the national lottery - A key driver in providing a platform for Contenders to rise from.
Like Labour claiming the Economic credit in the good times and then saying it is a world problem in the bad times; nobody believes a word they say anymore.
In actual fact New Labour has a lot to be thankful for from John Major, good economy & Lottery cash for social & Sport projects. Labour have screwed up the economy, lets hope they don’t ruin the sporting resurgence.
It has been a real joy to watch us win things in the last few olympics. I remember in the 1980’s at times we were lucky to get half the number of golds!
20 - My tip, GB cycling team for best team.
20. The thing about Adlington is that she’s so nice, and the more the public see of her, the more likely she is to win.
16 - It’s actually plausible that we could compete as the EU!
Honestly, I was just being glib, and trying to poke some of the Eurosceptics with a stick (I now agree with them, but need to preserve my independence)
Yes, it started with the lottery. Labour are struggling to find anything positive to say about themselves and are desperate.
Lottery money => Tory win.
20. In Formula 1 you actually risk dying. Not a huge risk, but it is there. If Hamilton wins the F1 championship he should therefore be SPOTY, with Olympics Team GB as the “Team Winners”.
A look at the list of past winners is intriguing. The winner in 1997 was…. Greg Rusedski. No joke. Greg Rusedski? Jesus, how crap was that year? Maybe everyone just voted insanely in 1997, whatever they were voting on, hence Labour’s ridiculous and - it turns out - nationally disastrous election to power, in the same year.
28. Yse they have some real voids win it some years: Think David Beckham won it one year - Great soccor player but personality?
28 - The problem with Formula 1 is that a fair amount is contributed to success by having a better car. I suppose in a smaller way that could apply to cycling so someone like Adlington may be the perfect choice.
Rusedski reached the US open final in that year.
It’s true that the cynical might suggest that a bandwaggon of the athlete’s making is being jumped on, but the fact remains that the Labour Government TRIPLED support to Sport UK for elite sport.
It would be churlish not to recognise that sports-fan Gordon Brown has made a real difference. That’s why the Culture, Media and Sports Secretary was able to predict success before the medals started being won: http://www.labourmatters.com/2008/08/16/team-gbs-olympic-success-is-partly-due-to-another-gb/
29
I have always thought the word personality should be dropped.
28. seanT: Olympics Team GB as the “Team Winners”.
That’ll be fun trying to fit them all in the studio!
31. MTF: I have always thought the word personality should be dropped.
The problem with that is that “Sports Person of the Year” sounds silly, so it’ll only work if they go to two awards: “Sportsman” and “Sportswoman” - which I don’t think they’ll do.
31. It’s not used as the characteristic of having a good personality. It’s the definition of ‘being’ a personality in the world of sport. Haven’t you heard the phrase ‘a Hollywood personality’ before?
30. Yes, but he lost. And he’s basically Canadian. And who cares about tennis anyway, silly game for girls.
“Come on Tim!” Who was it on pb who said that should be the Tory chant, when Labour leader David Miliband gets up for his first PMQs.
“Come on Tim! Come on Tim!”
lol. Brilliant. Miliband will be a laughing stock within five minutes of assuming the job. “Come on Tim!” will be shouted at him wherever he goes - every meeting, every speech, every hustings, every TV appearance. “Come on Tim! Do the embarrassing shaking fist thing!”
The more I think about the Geek Miliband, the more I think he would possibly be EVEN WORSE than Brown.
Labour, please elect him. Please.
Can’t help noticing that GB’s success mainly due to the highly technical / equipment based sports of rowing, cycling and yachting which respond to piles of money being thrown at them - like Formula 1. No great signs as yet of the urban working classes being motivated to take part in the traditional track and field sports which surely has to be the aim of government. I wonder how many members of Henley Rowing Club will be saying “right on Burnham, we’ll vote for you next time” ?
36. Lol, someone was reading The Times yesterday. Source your posts.
31. Yes! It’s interesting but most sports people don’t really have personality - must be the training that does it! I suppose you could call someone like George Best a personality but many sports people just don’t have it. Mind you runners like Chris Arkabusy do - he was a good laugh IIRC!!!
18. Ah! Should have read to the end.
‘a person of considerable prominence; “she is a Hollywood personality”‘
The success in the Olympics makes a good case that well used investment can bring rewards over the long term though. Cycling the most obvious example of an event where we’ve come from nowhere 12 years ago, rowing stronger than ever, and swimming could be looking very good in four years time given the number of finals we’ve been reaching (a big improvement from four years ago). Build from the bottom with strength in depth and the rewards will come. (but never in Judo…
)
7 The Sydney Olympic stadium has changed hands for $1 since the games. That’s a measure of how “made up” the ozzies are about their Olympic legacy.
And what’s the point in the Beeb, and most politicians, bleating on about man-made global warming for 205 weeks of every four years if they conveniently forget about it for the other three.
The Olympics should be completely remodelled to make it sustainable.
thomas at 11.05 could have had a point had the Labour Government Stopped the selling of school fields - they didn’t and have sold more! Also the Labour Government through their quango’s and progressive methods have stopped most schools from participating in sports, especially sports that create competition.
If Labour try -as Burnham that mascara lidded boy Did this morning - to claim credit. The Tories can claim credit for the Lottery remind people what it was created for and tell the people how this Labour Government have taken most of it for their own projects!
We could have done much better if the monies had gone into all sports, as they should have.
Labour are a failed government run by incompetents led by a man who, obviously, lives in a bunker!
How many seats did Labour win in 1997. Wasn’t it 419?
Anyway race of the games so far was the 49er sailing medal race - Denmark nailed on for gold but their mast broke before the start. Had to borrow a boat from the Croatians to even get into the race but were miles behind. But virtually every boat in the race capsized at least once (the Australians with the finish line and Gold medal in sight) which meant the Danish finishing (despite a late capsize) was enough to bring victory! Hilarious stuff, but these sailors are mad!
6 - since the medal table positions are ascribed on the basis of nation states of course the only way that that could happen was if we lived in a single state called the EU.
If you are saying that is what you want then all credit to you for your courage :-)(I do recognise a good stick poking when I feel one)
But I think you will find more than a few people who would disagree - including most of the British Europhiles who love to spend endless hours telling us that is not what the EU is about.
Of course if we all lived under a one world government then their would be no medals tables at all. Then we would all be one happy clappy family with no war, no famine, no pestilence and endless repeats of Big Brother on TV to keep the masses happy.
43. Thought it was 418!
41
I understadn there is a lot of dissent in the Judo camp. Any idea hwat that is all about?
43. Punter: How many seats did Labour win in 1997. Wasn’t it 419?
Yes, if you count Betty Boothroyd as Labour. But, of course, there were nine more constituencies in total than there will be at the next election.
45 - I’m a recovering Europhile, Richard! I could have supported a superstate in the past, but I’m now a sceptic until the EU is abolished/replaced/reformed beyond recognition.
48 So that was what Mr Smithson mean’t then when he said the Tories would get more on 414 seats.
47 - The coaching was emasculating their style and ability to compete - apparently.
In any case, where and who do you think wants one world government? Utter madness but so is a flat earth and only a few cranks believe that one too.
36. But “throwing piles of money at sport” is what every majorly successful sporting nation has done for years. The Aussies started doing it decades back, when they were embarrassed by how crap they were, the French do it, the Yanks, the Swedes. There’s no shame in it.
We in Britain still have a hint of that “Chariots of Fire” ethic, where success should be aristocratically casual - almost nonchalant, and achieved without any obvious investment of effort, time, or money.
That’s great, but it don’t lead to third place in medals tables.
36 - don’t think that explanation quite holds up. Nobody suggests that the sailors or rowers are performing in better boats. What is true is that we are doing well in events by and large where there are not any obvious advantages to be gained by natural selection (see Usain Bolt) and where spending money on excellent facilities, good preparation etc will bear fruit. Basically “developed world” sports.
So, yes, events where spending money will help, but not where spending money gives an “unfair” advantage. The fortune is that the lottery has provided a means to spend that money relatively uncontroversially on achieving success.
Croydon Council has a public question time session at the beginning of every main council meeting. In 2000 I put in a question about whether any of the UK’s Olympic medal winners had come from Croydon or received any funding from the council. As part of the answer to the supplementary question, the (then Labour) councillor who answered the question mentioned that the Labour government had funded sports (bla bla bla), but also that the cultural investment by the Labour government was responsible for the victory of the UK in the Eurovision Song Contest on Saturday 3rd May 1997.
49 Us recovering Europhiles are a bit like ex-smokers no longer just not for it but increasingly positively against. I recognise the good European co-operation has done but it needs major reform,
54.
Socialists are like pigs in shit when it comes to taking the credit! It sickens me how they seek to use others activity as a political boon, when it suits them. Particularly when they have no impact what so ever on the performance of an individual as you cite in your case there!
Labour takes the credit in the good times and walks away in the bad times!
35-Ha ha ha.
PMQ: “Come on ‘tiger’ Tim!!!” Followed by Tiger Tim Millipede clenching his tiny fists and pretedning to be “really” focused/angry/non-wimpish…
Would be the most ridiculous thing since Douglas Hogg came out wearing his Bush Hat and saying the fightback started now.
As for the slingbox, a Yank friend of mine (pro guns, anti gay, low taxes, Texan, etc) had it in Moscow and it worked wonders. Naturally I wouldn’t bother as I get enough Al Beeb propaganda from BBC World, but I can recommend it.
Talking about the heady mid 90s I remember the National Lottery and how year after year the Criminal Democrats decided it was the most pressing issue in the land and how it should be capped at £1m. Labour are the party of envy, the LDs of loons.
Has anyone done the stats to see where we’d come if the ScotsNats declare independence from GBR? Good by-election scare story there for Labour! Or was that what Burnham wanted to go on to say?
57-Here the hat!
Sadly, small, 
http://www.justice4andy.com/douglas_hogg_30.html
36- fr- never thought that I would say this but excellent post.
Hopefully the legacy of 2012 will be to generate a national (urban) interest in athletics, where the real excitement of the Olympic lies.
34 re”31. It’s not used as the characteristic of having a good personality. It’s the definition of ‘being’ a personality in the world of sport. Haven’t you heard the phrase ‘a Hollywood personality’ before?”
by charlie August 17th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Yes i have and it grated then and still does now
28/30- didn’t some aristocratic trollop get the thing for riding a horse a couple of years ago.
At least Greg Rudseki managed to reach the first proper male grand slam final in tennis in the modern era. And do not count Lloydy making the Oz open in 1977 when noone bothered to fly to the event.
I suppose Obama with his past drugs and drinking would rate a s a personality! Indeed a character!
Today, Mike, I almost feel proud to be British. Haven’t felt that since a certain day I spent at Wembley in 1966. But even then I felt that West Ham had won the World Cup and England came a poor second.
I know a lot of the zenophobes on this site will hate me even more, but I just tell it the way I see it. Well done to all those athletes who have achieved their dream of appearing at the Olympics and a particular bunch of congratulations to those who have earned medals by converting their natural talent into results.
Sadly all of our politicians lack any kind of real talent and their hangers-on and cheer-leaders would do better by ignoring them and by applauding those who are able to show true achievements - our artists, scientists, carers and athletes.
Annoyingly,
Malcolm
62
Thats unnecessarily harsh Tyson. Have you got a hagover?
64
Annoyingly,
Malcolm
spot on!
51
I was being sarcastic… or is it ironic. I always forget.
Then we entered Labour for now. The UK’s is very pretty and you will know that if you try to hitchhike across it.
Loving the Olympics. But the idea that Sports Day on the other side of the world is going to save Labour from an electoral mauling is risible. Britishfolks getting medals might make people feel betterabout being British, but don’t do a thing to pay the food and fuel bills.
65 “Have you got a hagover?” That is a brilliant typo which should be preserved for posterity. Presumably the morning-after regret at last night’s booze-fueled leg-over?
On the sporting theme, I see ManU are 6/4 to win the Premiership and Chelsea 13/8. Both look decent odds. Arsenal have had a lot of disruption over the sumer and Liverpool were very poor yesterday and might be written off already after signing Robbie Keane and attempting to get Gareth Barry.
Hi Hilda Fan
How are they hanging? Weren’t those two girls on the bikes something; that Velodrome in Manchester paid for by public funds is still the envy of the world. I love it when I pay my taxes for some positive benefit. I think we should all be able to tick boxes on our tax returns to say where our pennies are spent. Iraq and Afghanistan, and MPs expenses would be untouched on mine.
Even more annoyingly,
Malcolm
64 Even as a big West Ham fan,I would hesitate to go so far as to state my beloved Hammers won the World Cup!
(Bobby Charlton,Manchester United,Alan Ball,Blackpool-I will not tire readers,and myself by listing the whole squad’s clubs-and it is true Bobby Moore and Sir Geoff Hurst were a HUGE part of our 66 success-but I am sporting enough to never forget the others-I personally rate Sir Bobby Charlton as the greatest ever player for Man U.Doubtless I have started a debate that could go on and on and on 
does it really matter what Burnham says. he and his kind will count for nought within 18 months. does no one realise that new labour is dead?
70-Would be good idea. Few would get my tick, sport not one of them. Although in the scheme of things money spent on sport is tiny. Unfortunately if you don’t tick boxes the Whitehall pen pushers will just steal your money anyway-you wouldn’t be able to opt out of paying tax.
Say the UK government p!sses up against the wall over £520b/year. The Olympics excess will cost up to £9b till 2012. “Do the math” but the % is tiny on an annual basis.
70
Is it public funds though. I thought sport funding came through Sport England and that was funded by lottery money?
68- MM- Excellent- brings back some fuzzy memories of a misspent youth.
Exceptionally clear headed this morning mind
Cannot wait for the 2012 Olympics. Ken will be back at County Hall to reside over one of his greatest triumphs.
The Cameron Govt will be 20% behind plus in the polls as people all around the country yearn for the good old days of Labour Govt to return, and people will be counting the days after the Tories are universally hated again.
Happy days to look forward to
76.
Pigs will be flying and little green men will be found on mars!
re 76. Tyson - I think that you will have to wait a bit longer. Maybe halfway through the third term before Labour, or even better the Lib Dems, are 20% ahead.
77. Just to clarify why i think this: unlike in the early 1980’s the Tories will inherit an economy that should be past the trough if the election is 2010. The Tories cannot be blamed for the mess and indeed i cannot see the circumstances where 2012 would be neagative for the Tories. Indeed if the Tories were a minoirity or small majority administration then i would expect Cameron to go for a *working majority mandate* in 2012 maybe sychronised with the London mayor elections!
78- Mike- hopefully the great British public have learned their lesson- not to give Govt’s of any colour longer than 2 terms- 1 to set out their platform, and 1 to implement their changes.
When Cameron does win, provided he doesn’t do any major screw ups he should be comfortably assured 2 terms, but only 2.
Labour have rather confused the Tories providing a weak opposition with public affection which they lost in 2003.
A good opposition should ensure that a Govt doesn’t survive longer than decade.
80. I tend to agree with the two terms thinking!
Any longer than 8-10 years and governments tend to run out of steam! I do think the Labour party mortgaged their future prospects by winning 2005. Labour could not afford that victory financially or politically. Maybe postal voting has dammed up the revolt of Labour voters to such an extent that wholesale defection/ abstention is a real threat to them.
In terms of effective opposition it depends how you define effective. Can a party with 165 seats or so provid effective opposition? I don’t really think so! In some sense Labour will suffer at least as bad defeat in 2010 as the Tories in 1997. If the Scottish dimension alone is taken into account then the SNP on mid 40’s, which is what they are currently polling are going to take 30-40 Labour seats! Michael Foots result starts looking good if Labour collapses in England! Brown trouser time for Labour MP’s me thinks!
Anyway, for the time being I have promised my better half that I will give up betting and posting. She was a bit non plussed after finding me betting on the Olympics.
So a temporary period of lurking ensues. Happy punting, and posting.
82. Yes have a good one!
This is the best result in a games ever, politicians should put aside playing petty party politics with this issue, and agree a programme to work towards ensuring 2012 is even better, regardless of who wins the next election. This olympics has given a boost and cheer to all sorts of people I know, sport is for everyone, whatever your politics.
80 - 81. Good idea. Don’t bother with elections, just give each party two terms with an, oh, 60 - 70 seat majority. Worked in Uruguay for sixty years.
82 Is that wise Tyson? I’ve found the Olympics quite profitable so far. Can’t remember the name but I know it was another PBer who put me onto the 4/6 China to win most medals. Virtually free money.
A favourite subject of mine: Civil Defence -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2571034/Bunker-mortality-how-our-civil-defence-rests-on-rusting-ruins.html
As i have pointed out frequently Governments since 1995 have failed the nation. Maybe not in the event of Nuclear war but even a leak from a Nuclear power plant. We have no strategic food stocks anymore, fuel supplies or bunkers. This would be a classic complete breakdown of society should something nasty occur. What do the government do nothing! Pathetic, absolutly pathetic!
What next get rid of fire stations etc!
Obama and McCain yesterday night:
many good clips by MS-NBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/22996214#26243725
McCain was impressive; Obama I donno.
Anybody know when we will be told who will be the VP’? I thought Obama was going to announce today.
89 — Peter the Punter
How come, “free money”?
Here, on betfair “Medals Specials - Most Overall”:
http://sports.betfair.com/Index.do?mi=20922931&ex=1&origin=MRL
China is a huge underdog @ 4.5…
how much sporting success will rub off on the government of the day is a little difficult too assess, probably not a lot!!
However I do seem to remember that Nottingham Tories opposed the council giving Torvill and Dean a grant.
Recognizing that they had the potential to rise to the top of the international standings, Torvill and Dean committed themselves to full-time training in 1980. (The Nottingham City Council staked the two to a $21,000 grant, freeing them to pursue their craft.) In 1981 the team took the European ice dancing championship, which had been dominated by Soviet skaters for the previous decade. By 1982 Torvill and Dean were the pair to beat, ranking first in the world and netting perfect “6.0″ scores.
Memory is a little hazy but I think thats correct.
Fantastic performance by the British team! It may not last for long but isn’t it good to be looking down the medal table at the Aussies and Germans?!
Let’s stir things up a bit here. One of the stars of Team GB has been Scotland’s Chris Hoy, who IMHO should be SPOTY and should get a knighthood for his superb career. Would he have achieved anything like this if Scotland had been independent? The British Cycling Federation is the best in the world, a Scottish Cycling Federation would be starting virtually from scratch and it would be several years before it could have world class training facilities even then, there would be a much smaller talent pool to draw on so it’s probably unlikely that a Scottish men’s pursuit team would have done what Hoy did with Jason Kenny and Jamie Staff on Friday. If Scotland does go independent then a lot of Scottish sportsmen and women will have to make a big choice as to whether they stay with the UK or take a chance with a new and unknown Scottish setup. This will be particularly difficult for people in sports in which Britain is strong like cycling and rowing.
Could this have any impact on the independence debate? The last poll on this a few weeks ago stated that Scots preferred to see a UK Olympic team rather than separate national teams. I’ve no opinion either way on Scottish independence but I’m just curious to see what people think of this.
re 93. If it’s a cyclist it has to be Mark Cavendish - winner of a sensational four stages on this year’s Tour de France and likely to be picking up Olympic golds in the next couple of days.
To a cycling fanatic like the TdF stage wins are equal or even greater than Olympic golds.
Jindal just explicitly ruled himself out of the VP contenders’ list on NBC’s “Meet the press”
“But the idea that Sports Day on the other side of the world is going to save Labour from an electoral mauling is risible.”
No worse than the suggestion, floated here only yesterday, that a 20-point Conservative lead was somehow “good news for Labour because it isn’t getting any worse.”
You believe that and you need to apply for Comical Ali’s old job in Iraq, really you do.
89. Peter - what do you make of the “most overall” medals bet??
Betfair are offering 4.2 on China.
Seems like value to me..
96. Yes! Labour are doomed and they know it! I have noticed recently that the government has ceased to have a point - everybody thinks there Crap & Bollocks.
If a 20 point deficit is good, then if it swung back to 10 percent behind at the election Labour would probably claim it was a formidable fresult for them!
94 - Mike, he’s only in one event, the Madison, he can’t pick up more than one gold.
C. Ohuruogu at 13/2 e.w 1/3 odds (two places) for 400 metres with stan james looks a bit of value.
97 I ducked it, Casino. The Chinese have bugger all in track and field. We’re moving into the US phase of the Olympics. They won’t catch the Chinese in golds but they’re pretty much nailed on for most medals. Don’t forget you have all the relays to come.
100 Not sure, Cheltboy. I don’t think she can win so you’re backing her to come second. Can’t see the value in that.
102. Should have made clear I meant value for place.
Pivked this report from an early Obama-McCain debate from PoliticsHome (which although it gets a good deal of stick here as a Rival site, seems to me a genuinely useful resource):
http://www.spectator.co.uk/americano/898516/mccain-finds-another-gear.thtml
Hi, all. Catching up on threads, I noticed that the “what is the core vote percentage” question crept up again. I do feel that people tend to conflate the core vote (which is a number of votes and could be guessed at) with the turnout (a fairly independent variable to the first one) to try to derive a core vote percentage.
For example, it’s widely accepted that the 1983 General Election tested the limits of the Labour core vote, with less than 28% of the vote. With a turnout of about 73%, this reflected about 20% of the electorate - so 20% of the electorate would have been Labour’s core vote. In 2005, they got about 36% on a turnout of about 61% - 22% of the electorate (ie, not much over Foot’s core vote). This would imply that at the latter turnout, about 33% would equate to Foot’s 28%. So which is the “core vote” - 28% or 33%?
If we just assume that 8 million or so is each major Party’s core vote out of an electorate of 44 million - of which 55%-75% will actually vote (probably more like 55%-70%, to be honest), that would equate to a “core vote” level of 24%-33%, dependent on turnout.
This does, of course, assume that the “core vote” can’t erode, which is an assumption that Brown may be testing
102 Hmmm…I like my ew bets to have a bit of a squeak for a possible first place, Cheltboy, and I just can’t see anybody beating the American.
104 - Imagine a debate between Brown and Cameron presided over by a prominent evangelical Christian in one of the country’s most evangelical areas and with an audience the same.
How do you think that would go down in this country?
All they would do is stroke the egos of their questioner and the framing of issues would be hopelessly perverted.
100. Cheltboy - I agree thanks for the tip I have put on £20 ew
93. “Could this have any impact on the independence debate?”
Well, only in the sense that the Scottish public tend to react extremely badly when their existence as a nation is ignored, which for obvious reasons is what happens during the Olympics. I even heard the BBC interviewer Phil Jones saying to an overseas athlete “your fans in England will be keen to hear…” The BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation? Aye, right.
As for your point about Chris Hoy, I’m afraid these ‘what if’ questions work both ways. If Scotland had been independent for the last forty years, the infrastructure would already be there. If, on the other hand, Scotland became independent tomorrow, we’d have Hoy there ready-made as a talented athlete (and I’m quite sure the funding authorities would make provision for him to train properly, even if it was well outside Scotland). And with the Glasgow Commonwealth Games in the offing, the infrastructure (especially in cycling) will soon improve considerably in any case.
Your point about the sprint team also works both ways - a Scottish team wouldn’t have won a gold in that event, but then neither would an English team without Hoy. There are these disadvantages to having separate teams, but the HUGE advantage that outweighs all other considerations is that Scotland would be able to send several times as many athletes as we currently can as a peripheral part of the British set-up. How are our athletes ever supposed to win at the highest level if they’re rarely given any experience at that level?
“If Scotland does go independent then a lot of Scottish sportsmen and women will have to make a big choice as to whether they stay with the UK or take a chance with a new and unknown Scottish setup. This will be particularly difficult for people in sports in which Britain is strong like cycling and rowing.”
This is a red herring. I’m sure we’d lose one or two for mercenary reasons (a la Peter Nicol in squash) but the vast majority would stick to the country they identify with the most. In the Commonwealth Games, for instance, we saw the swimmer Caitlin McClatchie (born and raised in England) choose to compete for Scotland because that’s where her parents came from. That’s in spite of the fact she’d have had much more chance of medals in the relay events if she’d gone with England.
The “new and unknown Scottish set-up” is misleading as well, because the Scottish set-up is already semi-detached in both its funding arrangements (ie Sportscotland) and in many of the individual sports governing bodies. The neanderthals at the BOA (led by Simon Clegg) absolutely hate this state of affairs and would love to centralise everything in London, but they’re not going to get their way. A Scottish Olympic team would be a much more natural progression.
On the whole, though, I just find it amusing when people assume that the prospect of having a Scottish Olympic team will somehow ’scare’ the Scottish public. Let me see, Chris Hoy would have watched the saltire being raised at his medal ceremony and not the Union Jack. Flower of Scotland or Scotland the Brave would have been playing instead of God Save the Queen. A sizeable Scottish contingent would have joined the opening ceremony parade in their own national dress, under their own flag, with their own flag-bearer. Yeah, that’ll really put people off independence.
107: I’ve been in that situation, more or less - as candidate for Chelsea in 1983 I was invited to an all-party debate by the largest church in Chelsea, a huge place with several hundred participants. The vicar set the questions, all of which turned out to be about church doctrinal matters - marriage, abortion, homosexuality, disestablishmentarianism, etc. The audience was polite, but it was very much an away game for me as an atheist.
I wouldn’t refuse to do it again, though - it’s a legitimate body of opinion and they’re entitled to put questions like anyone else. In Broxtowe the election-time events are mostly organised by the local churches, though they normally see their role just as hosts and encourage secular questions.
I take your implied point that this isn’t a fair test of Obama’s debating skills, as it was probably a bit of an away game for him too. Sounds as though he did OK anyway.
110 - Apparently someone in the audience shouted ‘we love you John’ in ad breaks!
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12583_Page2.html
Actually, though, my point is non-partisan, I baulk at anyone using religion to justify policy. To have candidates frantically trying to justify their ideas on the basis of faith is a dangerous way to formulate ideas.
Being partisan, it did actually provide one illuminating McCain comment, when asked for what he considered ‘rich’ he said $5 million. Hmm. I suppose Obama thought that, even though this is the one religious group where he is heavily outnumbered it was worth reaching out. I await McCain agreeing to be challenged in poor, black urban areas?
Frank Rich hits on the most important point in the race so far in today’s NYT column, the focus has yet to fall on McCain and, until it does, low information voters are going to be an unknown at best and volatile at worst. For those betting it’s a real concern.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/opinion/17rich.html?_r=1&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all&oref=login
“As everyone says, polls are meaningless in the summers of election years. Especially this year, when there’s one candidate whose real story has yet to be fully told. “
74
you forgot the third West Ham player in the winning side - Martin Peters. In fact all 4 England goals were scored by West Ham players led by a West Ham captain.
Actually I agree with you about the team effort and if it weren’t for the whole team then we would never have been in the final. But us West Ham supporters don’t often get much to celebrate so the old chant of
“64 FA Cup, 65 European Cup Winners Cup, 66 World Cup”
is still something we tend to cling to.
Cheltboy - and other racing nuts….
Rawaabet should win the 4.20 at Southwell. It’s only evens, but….
The Government can claim credit when we get a medal table that looks like this one:
http://www.olympics.org.uk/gamesmedal.aspx?gt=s&ga=5
though we did have Irish athletes in that team and real sports like rugby, tug of war, real tennis and men’s lacrosse
109. It’s bollocks. The more I think about it, the more ludicrous your argument becomes. Scotland will never vote for independence in our lifetimes, because, basically, most of the Scots feel kinda British AS WELL as Scottish, and see no overwhelming reason to rip up and destroy the United Kingdom. Indeed many Scots - the ones I know - LIKE being British as well as Scottish.
For once I’ll put my money where my my very large mouth is. I’ll offer you a bet of £100 (that’s English pounds,
) that Scotland will not have voted for independence by the time of the next Olympics - that’s 2012, long after your promised referendum.
You up for it, big man?
115. God, I don’t know where to start on this one.
“You up for it, big man?”
I’m a diminutive woman.
“I’ll offer you a bet”
I’m never gambled in my life (I know, I know, I shouldn’t be here…)
“Scotland will never vote for independence in our lifetimes”
If you’re so confident about that, why did you suddenly get cold feet and frame the bet as “not by 2012″?
Actually, whether Scotland ‘votes for’ independence by 2012 is partly out the hands of both the Scottish public and the SNP - it depends on whether Labour are brave and democratic enough to allow a referendum bill to pass the Scottish Parliament. But if a) the bet was changed to ‘in our lifetimes’ and b) I was temperamentally inclined to gambling, I’d have no hesitation in taking up your offer. Personally, I think there’s a better than even chance of Scotland becoming independent within the next fifteen years.
“Indeed many Scots - the ones I know - LIKE being British as well as Scottish.”
Hmmm…I’ve seen this symdrome before, especially with members of the Conservative Party. The only sort of Scots that count are the sort they KNOW (and we all know what sort that’ll be). For what it’s worth, though, I like being British as well, in much the same way that Swedes like being Scandinavian. Doesn’t mean they want to be governed from Copenhagen as part of a country called ‘Scandinavia’. I like being European as well - I trust you can say the same?
107. The church is in Orange Country, I believe, so it’s not exactly the Bible Belt!
In fact this church leader has done very well by flirting with the Democrats. Evangelicals are basically a Republican constituency, but by saying “we’ll switch for the right policies” they’ve got both parties trying hard to please them. Very intelligent leaders.
116. If you were a betting person, you would realise that tying up your money for more than four years would be very silly unless you get ridiculous odds.
116. Interesting how opinion polls suggest you are the one who only knows a certain type of Scot who agrees with you.
Goodness gracious. That Spectator review of Obama’s performance:
“At times his answers were rather ponderous and he was perhaps a touch too causal, it still seems odd to hear a presidential candidate using the phrase ‘screw-up’.”
Wait a minute. I thought he was eloquently elitist and talked above people? But if he talks on people’s level, he’s being too casual and not presidential enough? These criticisms from the right are getting silly now…
116. WHATEVER. lol. You post several hundred tedious paragraphs about the real feelings of the Scots who are, apparently, just GAGGING for independence, and then when someone actually calls you up on your bollox and offers you a BET, on a BETTING WEBSITE, suddenly your high-minded certitude turns into this masterpiece of risibly swithering piffle:
“But if a) the bet was changed to ‘in our lifetimes’ and b) I was temperamentally inclined to gambling, I’d have no hesitation in taking up your offer. Personally, I think there’s a better than even chance of Scotland becoming independent within the next fifteen years.”
Personally, I think there’s a better than even chance that in the next six hundred thousand years someone will have posted a comment as laughably gay and embarrassingly retarded as yours. But I wouldn’t bet on it.
118. Actually, from what I can gather, the odds being quoted on Scotland becoming independent within the next 20-50 years are fairly ‘ridiculous’, when you consider that we’ve got a nationalist government and a referendum is highly likely sooner or later. That referendum will be a two-horse race - aren’t odds of 25-1 (or whatever it is) a bit barmy?
122. Sounds like you could make a lot of money if you’re view of the situation is accurate then.
123. “your”. Sorry!
122
Not really. I suppose it reflects a the considered view of the betting firms when they look at opinion polls on the subject. The fact that it is a ‘two horse race’ is meaningless. A 100m sprint between John Prescott and Usain Bolt would in theory be a two horse race but I doubt anyone would be offering 25-1 on the result.
By the way. I am confused by your comment that you ‘like being European’. I find the idea of being ‘European’ a meaningless concept which I neither like or dislike in its pure sense. Why does it have any meaning for you as opposed to being, for example North American or South East Asian?
122. Well, apparently, by all accounts, your SNP government in all its glory is gonna call a referendum in 2010.
2010.
So what’s the fecking problem? Scots are just desperate to march under the Saltire, have their own intelligence service, and to call Yorkshiremen foreigners, according to you. So you must be pretty confident of success in that vote. In which case, why don’t you have a bet on it, you deluded sea-cow?
Nick - PoliticsHome does not get stick her as “a rival resource” but when its so called band of experts and political insiders come up with ludicrous predictions for by elections.
119. Could you direct to these opinion poll figures, because I’ve never seen them? If they do exist, I trust the questions weren’t in any way leading (heaven forbid…)
121. Ah, the ugly face of British nationalism. Knew it couldn’t be far away.
“…calls you up on your bollox”
Haven’t we already established that you can’t call me on my bollox for perfectly sound biological reasons? I’m perfectly relaxed about my testicle-free status, thankyou very much.
“You post several hundred tedious paragraphs”
No wonder people fret about the quality of the English education system. Your mental arithmetic is atrocious.
“suddenly your high-minded certitude turns into this masterpiece of risibly swithering piffle”
Please direct me to the point where I said - in ‘high-minded fashion’ or not - that Scotland was ‘certain’ to become independent. My statement that there is a greater than even chance within fifteen years seems perfectly clear to me, and a hell of a lot more plausible than your assertion that you ‘know’ Scotland will never become independent because the sort of Scots you meet (is this in a gentleman’s club?) don’t want it to happen. As we’re on the subject of opinion polls, I could direct you to several opinion polls this year that have put support and opposition to independence at roughly even-stevens. So perhaps you should broaden your range of Scottish acquaintances, and dare to mix with the great unwashed, even if they tell you things you don’t want to hear.
And, just for the record, perhaps Mike Smithson could confirm whether non-gamblers are actually welcome here? If not, I’ll happily go elsewhere.
122. Firstly, you have a minority administration. The SNP have to get a majority of votes in the assembly or do a deal with another party, which they haven’t done yet. Then they have to actually carry out their promise to hold a referendum. They may well not do so if they don’t think they’ll win. Then they have to get a vote in favour of it, and given that all opinion polls have failed to show a majority in favour of independence that’s far from a certainty. So those are your obstacles.
Also, now you are talking about a time frame of twenty to fifty years. A lot can happen in that time. I doubt anyone would give you 25 to 1 over fifty years. They’d be idiots. And as far as your case for independence goes, how long would an SNP administration remain in power if they failed to get a vote for independence? In which case, how long will your favourable condition last?
I hope Scotland becomes independent, because then I won’t have to listen to various snotty oiks threatening to vote for independence if we say England instead of Britain or make fun of how shit Scottish football is. ALso they can use their own ‘papers to make idiotic claims about how Scotland invented America and other self-aggrandising shite. It’s boring people. Put up or shut up.
128. Yes please. Which opinion polls?
Am I alone in feeling slightly squeamish at watching a Premiership football club with “Northern Rock” blazoned across their bosoms? I cannot declare an interest - I am not a fleeced shareholder, depositor, redundant employee or evicted mortgage holder.
It just makes me feel uncomfortable to think that many thousands of people are likely to have their blood pressure rise dangerously high at seeing this company being so expensively advertised.
128 Of course non-gamblers are welcome here, Frances; it would be a pretty dull Site without them. You don’t need Mike to tell you that.
129. Was it Frances that claimed the Enlightenment didn’t happen in England?
Francis - of course non-gamblers are welcome.
132. What’s your point?
126. “Well, apparently, by all accounts, your SNP government in all its glory is gonna call a referendum in 2010.”
Do you actually bother to read anything properly? If you can bear to re-read my ‘hundreds’ of paragraphs in post 116, you’ll find a very clear answer to your point there.
“Scots are just desperate to…call Yorkshiremen foreigners, according to you…”
I generally don’t call people from the Republic of Ireland ‘foreign’. Do you?
125. Well, if they are looking at opinion polls on the subject, they really ought to be coming to a very different conclusion. An independence referendum is highly likely to be a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ affair, not the multi-option type that produces the lower figures for independence in YouGov polls. In any case, the outcome of referenda is inherently more unpredictable than in any other sort of election, with huge swings of opinion over a short space of time (eg the EEC referendum in 1975, the North-east Assembly referendum in 2004). So I’m quite confident that the odds being quoted are ridiculous. And yes, Socrates, I would have a flutter on that basis if I was temperamentally inclined to gambling.
“By the way. I am confused by your comment that you ‘like being European’”
No, you’re not confused. You don’t like it, you find it distasteful, it doesn’t conform to your world view. But you’re not ‘confused’ by it.
HELP! I really can’t take on three or four people all at once! Where’s Stuart Dickson when I need him?
134. It just seemed to fit with your point about “idiotic claims about how Scotland invented America and other self-aggrandising shite”. I’m not certain it was Frances though, so I asked it as a question.
128 - Frances, non-gamblers are very welcome here - if we were restricted to those who wager money, then some rather colourful regulars would be lost - including (I believe) a certain Cornish sex-memoirist with whom you are currently sparring!
132. “Was it Frances that claimed the Enlightenment didn’t happen in England?”
No, it wasn’t me, and I would never claim anything so ridiculous.
133. Thanks, Mike.
Frances. While I’m still online - before I go watch the new batman movie - I take exception to this nasty little remark of yours, as well:
“Hmmm…I’ve seen this symdrome before, especially with members of the Conservative Party. The only sort of Scots that count are the sort they KNOW (and we all know what sort that’ll be).”
1. I’m not a member of the Tory party.
2. You have no fecking clue what kind of Scots I know. For what its worth, I have probably seen more of Scotland than most Scots, maybe even you. I’ve actually stayed on Foula, the most remote inhabited part of the British Isles - a long rough voyage from the far north of Scotland.
I’ve been to Harris and Lewis. I’ve spent weeks travelling the Highlands. I spent a weekend in the Shetlands. A friend of mine owns a tiny isle off Skye. I’ve stayed there too. I had a Scottish girlfriend, from Fife, who lived in Edinburgh - I went out with her for a year, and spent weeks in that gracious city.
I recently spent several days in Glasgow - east Glasgow, rough Glasgow, tough Glasgow - doing an article for FIFA - interviewing addicts and drunks, learning how they lived their lives. I have been to Tanera Mhor, in the Summer Isles. I once spent a week on Scoraig, the most remote peninsula in mainland Britain, north of Ullapool. I’ve hitch-hiked from London to Inverness. I know Aberdeen and Dundee. I’ve visited Sawney Beane’s cave on the Ayrshire coast. I’ve walked in the Borders.
I also have cousins and aunts who actually live in Glasgow. Some of them are rich, some really quite poor.
So don’t tell me I don’t know Scots, or Scotland, or that I only know “one type of Scot”. I have a great passion for the Highlands and Islands, I admire many aspects of the Scottish character and Scottish culture, I have had Scottish junkie friends - one of them died - and I have had Scottish aristo friends.
I also believe that Scotland is better and nobler for being part of the United Kingdom, just like England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
So hoots to you, you absurd little numpty.
138. Ah, ok. It was some Scottish nationalist that wasn’t Stuart Dickson. Apologies for linking it with you!
129. “Also, now you are talking about a time frame of twenty to fifty years. A lot can happen in that time. I doubt anyone would give you 25 to 1 over fifty years. They’d be idiots.”
Yes, we’re talking at cross purposes here, because that was exactly my point. From what I can gather, those are the sort of odds that are being offered, over exactly that kind of time-frame.
And I don’t want independence just because BBC journalists insist on saying ‘England’ when they mean ‘Britain’. I think we’re entitled to be highly irritated by that as a nation, but my support for independence has got nothing to do with that.
132 - I don’t think she said that exactly. She said that the Enlightenment in the UK was dominated by Scots. There is some truth to that, depending on when you set the start and end dates of the Enlightenment.
Plenty of scholars hold the view that the role of France and indeed England in the enlightenment is overstated, and that it is better understood when looking at Scotland and Germany - the universities of Glasgow and Konisberg, Kant and Adam Smith etc etc. This doesn’t preclude that there were great thinkers from France and England, but the structure of those societies meant that Enlighenment thinking was less culturally influential. For instance, it is said that the French intellectuals were as divorced from the general social milieu of their society as Russian intellectuals were in the early 20th century, whereas in Germany and Scotland you have a large professional, educated, reading middle-class, salon culture, and the overlap of academic disciplines such as philosophy with professions like medicine.
I don’t think it should be overstated, but that is the case made by some historians.
142 - OK, substitute ’she’ for whoever did say that.
121 Sean T, you are obviously spending so much time traversing the globe that frankly you have no idea what is happening in the northern half of the UK. I am a TORY and I consider it inevitable that within 10 years Scotland will have voted to become independent and will.
I suppose the ENGLISH pounds you are offering will be those issued by the bank set up by a Scotsman as indeed the Bank of England was.
Sport is probably the single issue which invokes the greatest nationalism among Scots and the greatest overwhelming feelings of anger and frustration.
I listened to the Andy Burnham interview this morning and I dont remember the Tories claiming the credit when Steve Cram, Steve Ovett, Jonathan Edwards and Seb Coe were totally dominating mens’ athletics. As others have said, the credit, if credit is due other than to the dedicated hard work of the athletes concerned, belongs to the millions who week in and week out spend pounds on the National Lottery, not on a Labour Government which has plundered it to pay for policies which even its overtaxing has been unable to raise sufficient funds.
I for one resent the fact that to date there has been nothing more than a woolie committment by the Government to locate something from the 2012 Olympics in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland but the funding of our sports councils and grass roots sports are being starved of funds because so much is being diverted to pay for the redevelopment of an area of London, the cost of which has already trebled and we still have 4 years to go.
The contrast with the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow in 2014 is startling. The Wstminster Government has offered little support to the Scottish Government to assist with the funding of the 2014 Games even though thankfully Scotland already has in place most of the stadia and major facilities which will be needed.
It is silly and infantile to try and separate the success among the home nations and somehow try and suggest one home nation would or would not do well. Put bluntly of the 11 Gold medals thus far, 1 has been won outright by a Welsh girl and one outright by a Scotsman. Another has had a Scotsman involved in a team of 3, so indeed with 2.33 out of 11, the celtic fringe is punching above its weight.
What will be sad will be if Gordon Brown doesn’t treat all these sporting superstars equally well. Dame Kelly Holmes who has Labour sympathies I understand got made a Dame for winning 2 golds in the same games. REbecca Adlington has just done the same this time but in the pool rather than on the track. Will she be made a Dame? She should be even if she is only 19. After all Prince William is now a Knight of the Garter at 25.
Equally Sir Matthew Pinsent got his knighthood after 3 gold medals at 3 games. So stand up Sir Ben Ainslie and indeed with 3 golds so far including 2 at this games, Sir Chris Hoy and Sir Bradley Wiggins.
I dont care which of the Home countries any of these athletes come from, I just get the same adrenalin rush watching all of them finish first and I am certain the ovrwhelming majority of my fellow Scots incluing all those wanting independence feel exactly the same way.
However there will be no UK football team because we all know the team would comprise 11 Englishmen with 1 Scot, 1 Welshman and 1 Ulsterman on the bench. The English Premiership is a fantastic league but then more than half of the 20 managers are non-English including the Scot who is one of England’s greatest managers, Sir Alex Ferguson and the overwhelming majority of its stars are not even British let alone English.
So let’s keep sport out of politics because as with any statistics you can argue in more than two directions using the same facts at the same time.
136. I wasn’t referring to Frances. I was thinking specifically of Fraser Nelson’s comments on Obama’s speech in London when he said America stood in the English tradition and Nelson decided to claim that actually it was Scottish. He had no idea what Obama was referring to specifically - in fact, I’m sure Obama didn’t either, and was just making polite noises about his host. Nevertheless, Nelson saw fit to claim America as a Scottish creation which is absurd and arrogant. I was making a connection between comments like that and comments that are often heard these days about how ‘the English had better stop saying x or the Scots will vote for independence’. It’s the common attitude that I don’t like, an arrogant and manipulative attitude and I took the opportunity to vent. Scotland is not the only country in this union, and the minority in Scotland who want independence may find they have a lot of support in England if they continue to disport themselves in this way.
No, you’re not confused. You don’t like it, you find it distasteful, it doesn’t conform to your world view. But you’re not ‘confused’ by it.
No, I honestly don’t know what you are talking about. The idea that you are ‘European’ is meaningless in the terms you are trying to suggest. Affinity to a continent as opposed to a culture, religion or community is a very strange concept and one that seems to me to be without logical basis.
139. I’m thrilled you know Scotland so well, in which case you have by definition, whether you choose to recognise it or not, met dozens of Scots who passionately support independence.
I think I’m as well travelled in Scotland as you - South Uist, North Uist, Benbecula, Mull, Orkney, Skye, the Black Isle, Caithness, Sutherland, Kintyre, Fife, Edinburgh, Glasgow, North Lanarkshire, South Lanarkshire, Dumfries, Galloway, the Borders, Angus, Aberdeen, Moray, Ayrshire, Perthshire. And probably loads of other places as well. And before anyone tries to be clever and says that makes me narrow-minded, I’m well enough travelled beyond Scotland’s shores as well.
And finally, I really don’t know how you have the nerve to feign hurt or offence at anything I said in response to your charge that I’m “gay”, “retarded” and have no “bollox”. (Well, one out of three ain’t bad for you, I suppose.)
145. Memo to Scots: stop yer f*cking bleating. Your country reminds me of a sheep I once saw, stuck in a wire fence. In Scotland. It was so stupid it had its head rammed through a hole and couldn’t get out, and when I tried to rescue it, it did a sort of pathetic sheep growl, like I was trying to hurt it.
Scotland is pathetic. Glasgow is a disgusting toilet. Your popu;atiopn is actually DECLINING
Easterross: “I for one resent the fact that to date there has been nothing more than a woolie committment by the Government to locate something from the 2012 Olympics in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland but the funding of our sports councils and grass roots sports are being starved of funds because so much is being diverted to pay for the redevelopment of an area of London, the cost of which has already trebled and we still have 4 years to go.
The contrast with the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow in 2014 is startling. The Wstminster Government has offered little support to the Scottish Government to assist with the funding of the 2014 Games even though thankfully Scotland already has in place most of the stadia and major facilities which will be needed.”
So you object to the LONDON (not England) Olympics not being held in Scotland? And you object to the absence of what help exactly for the Commonwealth games? You have the stadia, what do you want?
This is the attitude I object to. I expect you are right that Scotland will become independent and I would welcome it. I live in East Anglia. Will the London games benefit me? Obviously not, it’s awarded to a city. It’s my capital. As it happens the Olympics bores me to tears and I’d rather see the money spent on something useful. But I do not believe that there has to be something in it for my region of the country to accept the decision. Everything has to be seen in the light of what Scotland can get. The union seems more and more like an extortion racket.
150 Sean, clearly the reason you keep travelling is because you are so naturally offensive that you run out of goodwill everywhere you go very quickly. I frankly dont blame the sheep, it obviously preferred being stuck in the fence to having you touching it.
SCotland provides most of England’s leaders in politics, commerce and industry. Glasgow was the powerhouse of the British Empire and the population of Scotland has been increasing for the past 2 years.
yes, before I was rudely interruped, the population of Scotland is actually DECLINING and this is in a country of MASS IMMIGRATION. How the f*** did you manage that?
Dundee has to be the ugliest city in the world. Scots die at the age of 54 coz they are too stupid to actually eat anything but crisps. You let the English use all your oil and then you can’t even afford to deep fry yours Mars Bars any more. How stupid are you? You vote in droves for a dwarvish grinning buffoon called “wee eck”. You look like cheesy wotsits.
Everything Scotland does is TERRIBLE. You love football but Rangers can’t even beat a team of one-footed village idiots from ESTONIA. In the summer you have midges, in the winter (ten months long) you have endless freezing drizzle. When its sunny (i.e. for three seconds of June) you have “haar”, so its misty anyway.
No one with any sense wants to live in your grimy little rat-hole of a country. Everyone is on the dole. Your biggest industry is heart attacks. Your main activity is taking heroin. Those that aren’t on smack are alcoholics. And who can blame them wanting to blot out the misery of your stunted grey Scottish lives.
Here’s a hint. There should be a third option in your independence referendum, the third option being “simply close Scotland down”.
I think that one would win.
Anyone would think you were trying to provoke a response, SeanT!
144. No, I’m pretty certain whoever said that said, precisely “there was no English Enlightenment”.
And I disagree with the idea that it wasn’t as culturally influential in England anyway. The English Enlightenment caused the industrial revolution and England to be the geopolitical centre of the world for a century. You can’t get much more influential than that.
“SCotland provides most of England’s leaders in politics, commerce and industry. Glasgow was the powerhouse of the British Empire and the population of Scotland has been increasing for the past 2 years.”
Whilst Scotland may have punched above its weight at times I hardly think this is the most accurate statement we have ever seen on PB.com.
I am sure that there are a number of Northern English cities which would happily lay claim to having been ‘the powerhouse of the British Empire’. And it is nothing to shout about to have given English politics Gordon Brown, Ramsey MacDonald and Dinky David Steel.
Actually I would think Wales might have as much claim to having given Britain some of its most notable political leaders with Lloyd George and Nye Bevan beig two examples which immediately spring to mind.
151 Thomas, the Beijing Games are being held in cities thousands of miles apart. Clearly London is the appropriate place for the main stadia for any Olympic Games in the UK. However the sports should be distributed around the major cities of the UK. So far Scotland has been offered some training facilities for some countries. After all both Edinburgh and Manchester have hosted very successful Commonwealth Games in my lifetime.
For Glasgow we are ironically going to see major redevelopment of Glasgow East into the athletes village and after the games it is planned to be turned into social housing. However our government intends to reopen the Central-East rail line which closed under Beeching as a means of providing cheap, direct travel from the city centre to the main games venues. The Westminster Government gave substantial assistance to both the Edinburgh Games (Tory then Labour Governments) and Manchester (Tory Government) but thus far Gordon Brown has offered little for Glasgow 2014.
There should be some events held in East Anglia in the same way somethings should be in Yorkshire, Lancashire, Devon and Cornwall, Wales, Northern Ireland. So far its all London, London, London.
153 Triple LOL on the face on the SNP!!!
156. Yeah, Glasgow being the powerhouse of the British Empire? I’d like to see some figures backing up that spurious claim.
157 its ‘London, London, London’ who are paying for it! Like everything else in the UK. So we dont want the events being held in the wilds!
155. I remember the debate, there was at least one person arguing there was no English Enlightenment. My response was to point to Isaac Newton, and then the response was that he was too early to be considered ‘Enlightenment’. Which rather misses the point that England’s intellectual development was ahead of the pack.
154. As if. I’m actually serious. I think if “wee eck” and his gargoyle-faced nationalist chums want to have a referendum, then they have to include all the most serious options for the Scots people.
So the question should be:
Do you want Scotland to be
1. Seperate and Independent?
2. A constituent kingdom of the UK?
3. Closed the f*** down, cause its a disgusting and pointless little toilet of a country, where it constantly rains and the food tastes like gravel?
I reckon you’d get most votes for 2, with 3 and 1 splitting the remainder quite closely. Scotland is, in many ways, the khazi of Europe. Everyone knows this. That’s why the Scots were such an active part of the British Empire, they couldn’t wait for an excuse to flee their ridiculous “homeland”. Even Gambia was a better option.
161. That makes me sound like I want to claim England’s responsibility for the Enlightenment, which I don’t. For the record, my ancestors were eating peat in Ireland at the time, or faffing around in Greece.
156 Richard, Glasgow was the second city of the British Empire and at one time something like 50% of all major shipbuilding in the world was built on the Clyde.
Apologies if this has been posted in recent days, but am I right in thinking The Great British Sporting Jinxter will be travelling to Peking in the coming days for the climax of the Games?
Can someone ensure that he won’t be spectating on any events where Team GB are in medal contention?
157. Everything you say about the Olympics may be right. The fact remains that you are talking about it as if you are independent in your mind already. Everything is seen in the light of the question of the Union. This comes across as manipulative - a demand (implicitly) that Scotland get x or independence will follow.
165. As long as he stays away from the Russian/Chinese border.
157 Outside London there are venues for sailing, canoe/kayak, mountain biking in Dorset, Essex & Hertfordshire. Football (men & women) in Glasgow, Belfast, Cardiff, Newcastle and Mancherster.
164…and it’s gone from strength to strength since!
Sorry, I missed the question Thomas asked in post 131. Here is a link to one of the several opinion polls this year that have put support and opposition to independence at roughly even-stevens -
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20080706/ai_n27919809
@161:
Everybody should read Neal Stephenson’s 2300 page epic Baroque Cycle, for a brilliantly-written bit of historical fiction about the forces and personalities that drove the enlightenment.
170. Has support for independence ever gone over 50%?
163. Ireland. F*** me. There’s another little compost-heap of a country. I just spent a week in the capital of the Celtic Tiger, energetic, go-ahead Dublin….
It’s like a smaller version of Liverpool, only slightly colder, and people wear ginger comedy wigs on a Saturday night, and there’s slightly more fighting.
The rest of the country is just ridiculous. Tiny. Tiny tiny tiny. Beautiful in parts but provincial to the Nth degree. And its totally dominated by English media - the TV is all British, the best selling newspapers are all from London (and given a spurious “Irish” gloss).
Ireland is, culturally, no more independent of England now that it was in 1908; economically its slightly freer, but of course major economic decisions about Ireland are now made in Brussels and Frankfurt rather than London. Increasingly, they aren’t made in Dublin.
What did the Irish gain from independence? I actually think Ireland would be a better country if it was part of the UK, able to properly join in the national conversation - a vivid and vital part of a larger, Anglophone union. I respect their decision to secede, of course, and I would have been an Irish rebel myself at the time, because of British stupidity and brutality, but looking back, you have to wonder if it was worth it…
This is the whole paradox of small country nationalism. You get the chance to wave the willy of your flag in the Olympics, but in a globalising world your independence, as a small country, is actually reduced in many ways - especially if you are very close to a larger, much more powerful country that shares the same language and culture. As is the case with Ireland. As would be the case with Scotland.
I’m Cornish. A minuscule, romantic part of me quite fancies an independent Cornwall. But it would actually be a pathetic, pinched, small, provincial little place, that would still be culturally and economically dominated by England and London, cause that’s simply the hard facts of economics, linguistics and demographics.
So what’s the point? Scots take note. I don’t really dislike your country, I’n only teasing, as I’m sure you realise. But seperation would be a mistake and a sad one at that, for all concerned.
And now I really am off to watch Batman III. I hear its good. SawadeeKAP.
Meanwhile, back to PoliticalBetting.com..
I’ve been pondering the point Mike made in the previous article about how the spread-betting market still doesn’t reflect recent polls. Entering the YouGov percentages (Con 45%, Lab 25%, LibDem 18%) into the seat-calculation websites gives the Conservatives 422 seats (Electoral Calculus) or 414 seats (UK Polling Report), against the current spread-bet Conservative buy point on SportingIndex of 348 seats. Easy money, perhaps? Especially since the Conservative lead has been fairly solid for a while, the economy is not in Labour’s favour, Labour in-fighting looks set to continue, etc, etc.
The problem is the sensitivity to minor changes, perhaps triggered by a leadership change or just a general drift in opinion. Holding the LibDem percentage constant at YouGov’s 18%, the spread-bet (buy Conservative) begins to lose money at around Conservatives 41%, Labour 29%. Or if, perhaps more plausibly, one assumes some of the Conservative lead drifts back to both Labour and LibDems, the break-even point looks like something around Con 41%, Lab 28%, LibDem 20%. Not a big change from the current position.
So the spread-betting mid-point is not implausible, although it’s somewhat surprising that anyone is prepared to buy Labour at 238 seats, which on current polls would given them a loss of 60 to 70 times their per-seat stake.
What do other people think about this? Any strategies for taking most of the profit if the polls are right, but hedging against a possible drift back to Labour?
170. Thanks. I remember this poll. It’s thirteen per cent short of 51. There remains a mountain to climb. Also, I notice that support for independence drops when an option of further devolution is put on the allot. How much of that support for independence is soft and would think twice in an either/or ballot?
164
I am sure that Sheffield which had the highest steel production in the world in the 19th century, or Liverpool which was the busiest port in the Empire after London might have something to say about that.
Indeed Liverpool claim they were the second city of the Empire as do Bristol and Manchester. Personally I think Calcutta probably has a better claim.
168. I know the idea of Olympic football at Hampden Park was floated at one point, but from what I can gather that no longer seems to be the case. Or perhaps Coe and the BOA are going to try to blackmail the SFA into participating in a GB football team by threatening to strip Hampden of its fixtures if they don’t. If that is what they’re up to, it’s highly unlikely to work.
173. Cornish independence? Once we’ve finished breaking up Britain, are we going to start on England? Yorkshire should surely be first though, what with its separate viking roots…
157. Easteross. You’ll find that there are a few events being held outside the capital. Football is nationwide with Hampden as one of the vehues (others are Cardiff, Old Trafford, St James Park, Villa Park etc), Rowing will be in Hertfordshire - Eton Dorney and the Sailing in Weymouth.
http://www.london2012.com/sports/a-z-directory-of-sports-and-venues.php
However, I do think the way they have done it is too London centric. For example why isn’t the rowing at Holme Pierrepoint in Nottinghamshire, the equestrian events at Burleigh and so forth.
173 In terms of brutality and sheer bloodthirsty ruthlessness I always find it interesting that in its first six months the Irish Free State Government executed more IRA members than the British authorities in the previous six years.
179
At one point rowing was going to be at Holme Pierrepoint (which is about 15 miles from me). I am not sure why it changed but there have been a fair few problems with that venue recently including some very nasty bugs in the water which have caused some concerns locally.
175. “It’s thirteen per cent short of 51.”
God, that really is a desperate line of argument. You did notice that opposition to independence is 41%, didn’t you? In other words, ten short of 51. Looks like others have got a mountain to climb to win the argument as well.
So as not to tediously repeat myself (SeanT would not approve), I’ll just say that I dealt with your point about multi-option polls in my post at 137.
182. But we’re talking about political change. The status quo will be maintained unless those wanting change get over 50%.
179 - Yes, how dare they host most of the events at the London Olympics in London?
181. I didn’t realise there had been difficulties. Also thinking about it part of the problem maybe the transport access in the area ( I used to live a few miles way as well a few years back). After all its not really close to the major transport infrastructure (but then again nor is Weymouth really).
Easterross “Glasgow was the second city of the British Empire and at one time something like 50% of all major shipbuilding in the world was built on the Clyde.”
Unlikely to be true in any real way globally.
But you are proving that Scotland and Texas are closely related. Inhabitants of both believe everything was invented there, discovered there, and is bigger, better and more wonderful than anywhere else. And if you think you did something in your pathetic country then you will find a Scotsman behind it.
Rather all little Scotland stuff isn’t it?
182. I’ve made it clear I’m happy for you to go on your merry way, so it’s certainly not ‘desperate’. My point is that much of your support disappears when a third option is granted. In which case, it seems quite possible that many people who voted for independence in your poll will look at an either/or question and decide the time is not right.
I sit on the governing body of rowing in this country - a very successful British sport, but funding of grass roots sport in this country is a nightmare. Far too many quangos, musical chairs at the top all too often, changing priorities also too often and the most unbelievable PC hurdles to be jumped. UK Sport is also lumbering all governing bodies with the completely unworkable coaching scheme - which is fine for professional coaches - but spectacularly unsuited to the many sports where the norm is amateur coaches who help out to put something back into the sport. Many of these changes for the worse are to do with the Labour government, yes.
The money meanwhile comes from the national lottery and that is a wonderful thing - note there would be more if Labour hadn’t robbed the pool a few years ago by hiving off some of the money to projects which should have been funded by taxation. However, in the run-up to 2012 then many sports at the grass roots will start to feel the pinch as more and more goes to elite athletes.
183. This is complete nonsense. Either the ‘don’t knows’ in that poll wouldn’t vote at all, or they would break one way or the other. There isn’t going to be a ‘don’t know/abstain’ option in the referendum, which will conveniently count as a ‘no’ when the votes are tallied.
The salient point about that poll is that the ‘yes’ vote is just 2% behind the ‘no’ vote.
180
Including Erskine Childers, not only one of the greatest of the Irish independence intellectuals but also a man who can reasonably claim to have played an important part in saving Britain from a German invasion at the start of WW1. His execution was an atrocious act of political expediency.
178. Mercia and Wessex are fantastic old names. Let’s bring those back.
187. I’m not disputing that support for independence is lower in multi-option polls. But what the two-option polls are giving a useful indication of is which way the supporters of the ‘greater powers for the Scottish parliament’ option would break in a stragight yes/no referendum. And the answer to that seems fairly clear.
188
Chris,
can you shed any light on why Holme Pierre point was dropped for the Olympic rowing?
re 28 I believe in that year Greg Rusedski was the first British man to reach a Grand Slam final since before the war.
192. And I’m suggesting that the disparity shows the opposite of what you think they do. We’ll have to agree to disagree.
192. Yes, they’d be undecided and the status quo would be maintained. You should also note that these are the polls which ask about “independence” for Scotland. It’s like asking if people would like “freedom” for Scotland for many people who aren’t entirely appreciative of the political meaning of the term. Whenever you phrase it in a “breakaway from the UK” sort of way, support plummets.
re 132 mirthios are you not a UK tax payer? Then of course you have an interest.
Scotland of course was an Independent Kingdom until the early 18th century , the result was a financial disaster and poverty for most of it’s people . The Scottish penny of Alexander III had parity with the English penny of Henry III , by the reign of James VI of Scotland ( 1st of England ) there were 10 Scottish pennies to 1 English one and by the end of his reign 12 . It was not until the currency was unified in the reign of Queen Anne that the economic fortunes in Scotland brgan to improve .
146 Easterross. Pinsent was knighted on retirement after 4 golds at successive olympic games. Similairly Holmes was honoured on retirement after becoming the most successful female athlete in history.
Prince Williams position is clearly different as the eldest grandson of the sovereign and apparent next monarch but one.
re 146 but how would you count someone’s nationality. By place of residence? By country of birth? In which case one of the GB gold winning rowers is American.
It would be extremely messy.
One of my big complainst about the olympics is the way in which all other aspects of cultural life in Britain which receive lottery funding are being raided to try and prop up the games. Hundreds of millions of pounds of lottery cash has been stolen from other causes and large numbers of projects which support thousands of local community efforts (such as the Local Heritage Initiative) have been shut down because the money is being diverted to the olympics.
So personally whilst I understand that many people - probably the majority - are happy the olympics is coming to London, for me it has been a very bad thing which has, is and will cause a huge amount of grief for many people who will not only not benefit but who will see their quality of life diminished by teh way in which the games are being funded.
198 Mark Senior. 1707 - Bribed by English gold !!
190 In what way. The Germans never came close in WWI as opposed to WWII.
198
Mark
whilst historicaly that might be correct I am not sure it has much bearing on today’s questions about independence. The Scottish - and indeed world - economies are very different beasts to those of the 18th century.
re 179 has Eton moved? It always used to be in Berkshire.
196. I’d accept that talking about ‘freedom’ would be a leading question in an opinion poll, so I hope that you’d also concede that questions involving the words ’separation’ and ‘break-up’ are equally absurd. Polls should stick as far as possible to the likely referendum question - and in that sense I believe System 3 are following a more meaningful path than YouGov, for instance.
By the way, I’m not convinced that people are on the whole confused by the meaning of ‘independence’ in the way you suggest. The reason why there’s a disparity between the different formats of poll is that people are actually quite hazy on their own opinion of how far they’d like self-government to go. That doesn’t mean they wouldn’t break for independence when a Yes/No choice is presented to them.
On your earlier point about ‘undecideds’ counting as ‘noes’, no-one is going to accept that kind of fancy franchise after what happened in 1979. The arch-unionist George Robertson conceded that when he set out the very fair rules for the 1997 devolution referendum, which is the clearest precedent for what would happen now.
202 Not all of them! Don’t forget the Darien adventure. The Act of Union was a fine Stuart achievement you should be very proud of it.
Afternoon all
Re: 174 - Richard, I think everything depends on whether the Conservatives can achieve a 1997-style landslide or whether we will see something more akin to 1970 (Tory maj 30) or 1979 (Tory Maj 42).
Looking at Labour at the moment, many on here seem to think sub-200 seats is feasible but Labour’s historic low point since 1945 was 209 in 1983. You could argue that on the basis of results in 1968, Labour ought to have been beaten far more badly than actually happened in 1970.
It may well be (as Mike has argued) that the polls we see now are fairly indicative of what is going to happen in a 2010 GE in which case a “buy” of Tory seats at 348 and consequent “sells” of Labour and LD seats and a “Buy” of SNP seats might be a shrewd strategy if you can get the value and take a profit in good time.
The key is the Labour performance in Scotland. IF Labour ship twenty or thirty seats to the SNP, then a sub-200 return begins to look plausible though a “core” of Labour seats in England will remain (I live in East Ham and I’ve not even heard Ave It suggest Labour will lose here). IF Labour hold on in Scotland, then the gain on a “sell” of 238 looks pretty limited to me.
My view on Lib Dem seats (which may surprise some but I’ve said this for a while) is that the Party will hold only 35-40. I’ve seen spreads of 44-47 so a “sell” looks pretty reasonable. This pre-supposes widepread losses to the Tories balanced by a few gains from Labour and a number of near-misses.
I struggle to see the Conservatives doubling their Parliamentary representation in one hit. Of course, seats will be gained in England and Wales but I don’t see a huge scope for Conservative gains in Scotland so I just don’t see 400+ seats (the Conservatives won only 397 in 1983). 348 looks a little under-cooked but a figure of 375 looks, to me, to be the top-end of realistic expectations.
My betting strategy now (accepting the value has probably gone) would be:
1) “buy” SNP seats
2) “sell” LD seats
As for the USA, my feeling now would be (based on a spread of 294-302 for Obama and 234-242 for McCain) is that there’s little room for manoeuvre at present. As the Dem Convention is first, there may be a “bounce” for Obama but the GOP convention will provide a similar bounce for McCain so there may be opportunities for the nimble investor during the convention period (Aug 25 - Sept 4).
186 Who said that.
203
Up until a few years before the start of WW1 the British establishment had not considered the question of a German invasion of Eastern Britain via the North Sea. It was considered a British pond and little thought had been given to defence there. In 1903 Childers wrote ‘The Riddle of the Sands’ which was about a putative German Invasion of Eastern England from hidden bases on the North German coast. Churchill himself said that it was that book which formed the main driving force behind the decision to establish naval bases at Scapa Flow, Rosyth and Invergorden.
Unfortunately Churchill was also one of those directly responsible for persuading the new Irish government that Childers was a threat to the new state and should be eliminated.
I’m far from a sympathiser with the SNP, but it’s been fun to see Frances’ spirited defence of her corner - I reckon she beats seanT and thomas on points there. Another very welcome asset to the site.
On the specific point of the poll, there’s a general psychological issue which I think of as “bias to the middle” - if you offer people three options in some sort of logical order, a significant number will want to seem moderate and will opt for the middle one. That’s why serious research tends to have an even number of options, to force people to lean one way or the other. It’s a mistake to assign a middle option to one side or the other, and frances is right that this particular poll shows the issue to be close. (That said, I beleive other polls with just two options usually show a comfortable no lead.)
*** NEW THREAD *** Will Spelman survive? *** NEW THREAD ***
Cheers,
Morus
re 181 Richard, Holme Pierrepont doesn’t meet the current international standard for an Olympic rowing course and it would need some money spending on it before it did. I hope that you will encourage your county council that it would be a worthwhile investment when they take over the funding from 2010. As an example of what I was mentioning above, despite this country being a world leader in rowing there is no publicly funded rowing course in England. The 2012 event will effectively be held on what is a school playing field. And don’t get me started on the concept of public money being spent on a private facility…
…and I agree it’s perfectly reasonable to have a view about being a European (or, indeed, a North American). Obviously people vary a lot within Europe, but there’s a distinct shared heritage (not all of it pleasant), and it makes as much sense as having a view about being British, despite Britain containing people as disparate as all of us.
re 185 well I suppose being a few miles from the M1, A50, A1(M), EMA and a mainline railway station means that Nottingham (to most London centric people) is well out in the sticks.
You’ve obviously never tried getting to Dorney lake in the rush hour - it was a big, big problem in the 2006 world championships.
208 I can’t see how you think that. To knock them back to 35 seats they would have to drop almost half of their Parliamentary Party while assuming no gains net from Labour. Even if Labour are only badly beaten rather than thrashed a minimum of 5 Lib Dem gains must be likely. Ergo I can’t see how you can envisage fewer than forty even in a Tory perfect storm.
210 Spurious. Sure paranoia may have helped but I doubt any real German effort was ever on the cards. Looks a daft attempt to claim that he thwarted an invasion.
To Richard Tyndall,at various posts between 100 and 200,its a pleasure to meet a fellow Hammer! (Wonder if BetFair offer a spread-bet on the life-expectancy in a Glasgow pub after repeating 153?! :lol:)
205 think 179 misread source - Eton, Berkshire is venue for rowing, Broxbourne Hertfordshire venue for canoe/kayak (Eton doesn’t have a whitewater course).
Obvious reason most venues are close to London is that its a city that hosts and athletes should be able to feel part of the big event, live in athletes village and be within easy reach of their venues.
Most events should be in London as it is the London olympics - not the UK Olympics. BUT some events should be moved around - Wales wanted the Mountain Biking which could be held at a number of existing venues (Afan Argoed, Cwmcarn, etc). But instead it is to be held at a new purpose built centre in Essex (Note to self - check Wikipedia for height of highest mountain in Essex).
And the only reason Soccer is to be moved around to Cardiff, Glasgow & Belfast was to try to encourage the creation of a UK soccer team. It is not going to happen.