Will Cameron move to sack Spelman?
August 17th, 2008
Are her days as Chairwoman of the Conservative Party numbered?
Several of today’s Sunday Papers are running with stories that Caroline Spelman (Con - Meriden) used £100,000 of taxpayers’ money to top-up the salary of her Chief of Staff, Simon Cawte. This would be allowed if his work had been confined solely to supporting her work as an MP, but he apparently was engaged in political work on behalf of the Conservative Party through Mrs Spelman’s role as the then Shadow Local Government Secretary.
This is not the first funding scandal to hit Spelman, who is being investigated over claims that she used her staffing allowance to pay for someone whose duties involved nannying her children rather than working as a Constituency secretary. David Cameron, who has taken a strict line on financial sleaze in his party (namely the Derek Conway and Den Dover scandals) has not asked Spelman to resign her position, even though some in the party feel that this issue has distracted her from fulfilling her role at a crucial time. Should be be forced to step down, many have cited Eric Pickles as the man who should replace her.
In and of itself, this is not as serious a scandal as the payments made to Derek Conway’s son, but coming on the back of previous allegations, it is curious that David Cameron has kept faith with Caroline Spelman. Even if she is completely absolved, there is inevitably political fall-out from the linking of the words ‘Tory’ and ’sleaze’ in the newspapers, and Labour would relish any opportunity to link Cameron’s new model Conservatives to the Major days of ‘Back to Basics’.
The Labour MP who is pursuing this matter, as well as the PRU funding issue and sparked the inquiries into George Osborne’s expenses and Derek Conway, is John Mann who represents the Bassetlaw constituency in the midlands which Caroline Spelman unsuccessfully fought at the 1992 election. I have met John Mann (I was a scrutineer at his re-election in 2005) and after seeing his campaign against the scamming of mineworkers by their Union and Solicitors, he is not an attack dog that I would want to face.
So why is Cameron (for the moment) standing behind Spelman? Perhaps she is helped by her gender in this case. Harriet Harman, in her two outings at PMQs, has remarked on the lack of women on the Tory front bench, and upbraided Theresa May for allowing William Hague to stand in for David Cameron, when Harman was there in her capacity as Leader of the House. David Cameron has done more than any previous leader to increase the number of female candidates, but his Shadow Cabinet is decidedly male. Can he afford to lose one of the only senior women in his party?
It may be that Caroline Spelman represents a branch of the party that David Cameron needs to keep onside. An active Christian, she is also a trustee of the Conservative Christian Fellowship - given how far Cameron has moved his party on issues such as gay rights, he may not wish to antagonise those in his party who still consider it Britain’s answer to the Christian Democratic Union in Germany.
The third, and to my mind most compelling, reason is that if Spelman is asked to step down now, it cannot be in relation to the payments made to her nanny - to have delayed would undermine the attacks on Brown for ‘dithering’. Any request for her resignation will be linked to the payments to Cawte, and that opens up a world of trouble for the Conservatives.
If a member of staff funded by the public purse engaged in party political activity, then the rules have technically been broken. However, it is naive to imagine that many of the people filling those pulically-funded roles are not also politically active in line with their employers’ partisan allegiances.
If Caroline Spelman is sacrificed for her chief of staff’s ovestepping of the line, then all the 150 Conservative MPs who receive support from the Parliamentary Resources Unit (a pooling of staff resources, exclusively for the Conservative Party) might find themselves in something of a pickle. An investigation into the PRU was demanded by John Mann last month, and if Spelman goes, that investigation could be brutal.
Morus
MessageSpace Advertising
Repeated for Punter from the end of the last thread:
203
Up until a few years before the start of WW1 the British establishment had not considered the question of a German invasion of Eastern Britain via the North Sea. It was considered a British pond and little thought had been given to defence there. In 1903 Childers wrote ‘The Riddle of the Sands’ which was about a putative German Invasion of Eastern England from hidden bases on the North German coast. Churchill himself said that it was that book which formed the main driving force behind the decision to establish naval bases at Scapa Flow, Rosyth and Invergorden.
Unfortunately Churchill was also one of those directly responsible for persuading the new Irish government that Childers was a threat to the new state and should be eliminated.
Chris, I saw your reply about Holme Pierrepoint at the end of the last thread. Thaanks for the explanation.
Is there a Tory party member on here who could tell me what proportion of the party’s activist and councillor base would like it to be an explicitly Christian party?
Nick Palmer (from last thread): “Obviously people vary a lot within Europe, but there’s a distinct shared heritage (not all of it pleasant), and it makes as much sense as having a view about being British, despite Britain containing people as disparate as all of us.”
I think you’re overstating the case massively here. ‘As much sense’? Britons share a language, a culture and a political Union that has lasted centuries, as well as a religious affiliation that was very important in forging our past (and I say this despite being from a Catholic background).
4. And it is obvious that we have far more in common with Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the US. Europe is somewhere down the list of entities it makes sense to feel a part of.
On the topic, stories of women being fast-tracked into front-line tory roles have emerged today, so that may well be a sign that Cameron wants to move.
Hmmm well we’re about to find out if, God really is on her side!
On topic at the third attempt
I think Spelman is gone. No, rather I HOPE Spelman is gone. MPs don’t only need to be clean they need to be seen to be clean.
Mind you, with a bit of luck John Mann’s days will be numbered as well. His Conservative opponent in Bassetlaw Keith Girling is making good headway against him and I would fancy him to take the seat at the next election.
3 - Socrates, I’d have thought a very low proportion indeed. There’s traditionally a largish overlap between party members and active Church of England parishioners, but its all pretty low-key. I don’t think there’s any appetite for the kind of explicit linking of politics and religion seen in the US and in some European countries.
I’ve said something nice about frances at the end of the last thread - I won’t cross-post but she’s appreciated.
I won’t comment on Caroline Spelman’s position for the usual reason (I try not to comment on people whom I work with) but as a general observation, there’s a well-understood division between the day job and private support when you work for an MP. We all expect our staff to be vaguely sympathetic - it’d be just silly for me to employ a BNP supporter in my office, for instance - and if someone writes me a partisan letter I would feel OK about asking a staff member to look up our record compared with the Tories so I could argue back. On the other hand, you are definitely not allowed to do straight partisan work using office resources - e.g. no MP that I know does any phone canvassing from the office, tempting though it is not to have to trail over to the Victoria Street HQ.
The Tory practice of pooling resources for central party political research has been found in order by the relevant scrutiny body because it’s supposed to be a resource for MPs. Any suggestion that such resources are used for wider party purposes would be dynamite. If Mr Cawte has been paid partly by the party and partly by the public it gets complicated and presumably depends on the proportion of his time spent in each role.
4. I agree. Nick is wrong. There is no such thing as a distinct European heritage. We don’t even seem to be able to agree on what European is let alone on the facets of its ‘heritage’. European’s are (thankfully) incredibly diverse and the European Continent contains many distinct and diverse cultures - many of them more separated from each other than those of the ‘Anglo-Saxon’ world in spite of its diaspora around the globe.
If yo want to claim a common ‘Indo-European’ heritage on account of a shared language root then I might give you that. But you will have to include much of Northern India and leave out the Basques, Finns and Hungarians.
9 - That’s probably a fairer expression of what I wanted to say, Richard. The Church of England has long been jokingly referred to in Catholic-Labour circles as the ‘Tory Party at prayer’ and there is no doubt that it is stronger in its support of the Established Church led by the monarch than the other parties.
Iain Dale carried a guest blog which brought out some of the tensions between Christians and Conservative humanists:
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2008/08/weekend-guest-blog-god-tories.html
For my part, I think the number of Tories who want it to be ‘explicitly’ Christian is small but vocal. There are, IMHO, sugnificantly more who consider that the party and the country are fundamentally Christian, though recognise that making that explicit would not be sensible politically.
Another interesting aspect is the idea of counter-culture youth. The model for younger people now prepared to admit to being Tories reminds me of many of the people in the Christian Union at university, who were prepared to be astonishingly conservative, but in a new and fresh-faced sort of way, when that was a movement struggling to compete with more fashionable ways of being. That may be an interesting observation, or completely tangental - I don’t know.
8 - I would be prepared to bet you £20 that John Mann doesn’t lose his seat at the next election.
4: I concede the language, but I’m not convinced we do share a common culture. In what way do seanT, Dennis Skinner, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Sex Pistols, The Queen, Nick Griffin, Jade Goody and I share a common anything, except a vague sort of familiarity with things common in Britain like red postboxes? It’s a very individual thing but when we get off the subject of the EU I think you’ll find that even seanT feels European to some extent, whereas Richard Tyndall says he can’t understand the idea at all.
Why does the humble tax payer pick up the bill for Steven Carter et al, when they are solely focused on supporting Brown and the Labour party agenda? How much money does the COI blow on advertising Labour pet projects as “information”?
Quite frankly the whole system stinks with us poor sap tax payers picking up the tab.
Spelman should go, not because of any of the issues at hand, but simply as she’s not very good.
12 Tricky to judge that now. You’ve hinted how the it’s moved closer albeit by default to the Catholic Church generally as Labour moves away. Have you seen the Princes of the Church start to hob nob with it as they used to with Labour or not.
12
You would probably win Morus. I did say hope rather than expect. (Actually looking back I said neither but the sentance implies hope rather than expectation). But I wouldn’t write of Keith Girling. It would all depend on how much Labour recover before the next election.
Also it is worth pointing out that the Boundary Commission changes make the Parliamentary constituency a closer match to the Local council which is Conservative controlled. The transfer of Retford from the Newark constituency puts a rather more Conservative oriented block into the Bassetlaw constituency
13. I remember reading somewhere about a census done in England or Britain which showed far higher numbers of young people living away from their parents than on mainland Europe, far higher numbers of people living alone, far greater social mobility, far more economic freedom, etc etc. Then the author revealed that this was a survey of England at the time of Chaucer. Culture is very real even if we don’t see it on the surface.
I would add that language is more than just language. It is a shared cultural heritage in itself. Americans look to Shakespeare for lessons in life and hear what we hear to a greater extent than French people can ever do (whether in translation or as a second tongue).
I don’t believe anyone feels European. I believe they want to construct a European political entity and of a kind that needs a people. Carts do not come before horses.
13. OH DEAR.
Listen to it: The British have *NOTHING* in common, where we actually are jolly good brethern with our Europeans across the channel.
A stunning level of national cultural ignorance and a complete absence of genuine patriotism.
Says it all about New Labour really, doesn’t it?
NICK - THIS IS WHY I HATE YOUR PARTY.
On the matter of the church, I remember that Osborne was the only Tory not to vote for the restrictions on abortion when the matter came up earlier this year. The suggestion was that this was to avoid the issue becoming party political, but I think t also shows the Tories are very keen to avoid gaining a similar reputation as the Republicans, i.e. as a socially conservative party with strong links to the church. The new membership which Morus alludes to would not take kindly to that.
13
Part of my failure to see the ‘European’ heritage might come from the fact that like you Nick I have spent much of my adult life working there and elsewhere around the world. I have to say that I felt just as much at home as the only English speaker in the Empty Quarter of Arabia as I did as the only English speaker at my companies headquarters in Paris. The difference is that in the Empty Quarter the locals could not speak English. In Paris they chose not to because they were French.
That aside (and it is not meant to be taken absolutely seriously) my point is that where little cultural affinity exists I find that basic human decency is fara more important than artificial constructs for political ends. Hence the reason I do not see myself as being any more or less ‘European’ than I ‘Arabian’
1 - Spurious. Sure paranoia may have helped but I doubt any real German effort was ever on the cards. Looks a daft attempt to claim that he thwarted an invasion.
But he didn’t make the claim. It was made years later by Churchill. And in fact the Germans did seriously consider the possibility of invasion from the North Sea. It was of course thwarted by the Battle of Jutland which effectively bottled them up in their ports for the rest of the war.
Punter:
I’ve gone through my “predictions” for LD seats. Of the 63 currently held, I think only 25 are currently “safe”. Given local factors and a personal vote that might be nearer 30 by polling day plus five gains from Labour and that makes 35.
I think one or two people are overestimating the chances of LD holds in Scotland and Cornwall - regarding the latter, there is a lot of anger about the creation of the new Cornwall Unitary Authority and the abolition of the districts.
I think both North Cornwall and SE Cornwall will go Tory, Truro may survive though not certain while I think Falmouth & Camborne could be one of the big LD losses of the night. St Ives looks ok for Andrew George but that’s my view at present.
23. Have you looked at Norfolk North? Any predictions? I assume it will be held, but do you think there will be a drop in the margin?
16 - sorry, I read ‘I would fancy him to take…’ and immediately took ‘fancy’ in the betting sense! I don’t doubt that the Conservative candidate is very good, but the last one was no slouch either, and still lost by almost 11,000.
John Mann is well-supported by the party and the unions, and is liked locally for some of his campaigns. I reckon its one of the safest Labour seats going, although your point about Boundary Changes is worth bearing in mind.
Obama might pick John Kerry as VP?
http://wbztv.com/politics/jonkeller/john.kerry.vice.2.796143.html
This is getting silly… (hat-tip to Drudge)
Re: 24 - Thomas, it is currently in the “safe” column as Norman Lamb is, it seems, an excellent constituency MP. That said, it’s hard to imagine the Conservative vote not recovering to some extent so a reduced majority for sure.
27. Thanks.
21. Seeing as my name is being taken in vain, I would say I do feel “European”, but in the same way as the Frenchman who said “Paris is my city, France is my country, Europe is my Civilisation”.
Put it another way, to the extent that “European” is coterminous with “western civilisation”, then yes I feel “European”, but European in this sense includes America, Canada, Australia, etc.
I’m not sure this is what Nick means, but then I don’t veklieve Nick ever knows what he means - because he is a self-confessed ex-communist who admits he feels no sense of British patriotism at all, a man who admits he is quite happy to dissolve British identity in a greater Europe as long as its like Switzerland, which he likes, even though they constantly have referendums, which Nick either heartily appproves of or absolutely diusapporeives of depending on what he’s being told to fundamentally believe about referendums, by whoever can give him a slightly better job at that moment.
Nick is, as we have established, and as he confesses himself, an incoherent careerist, so I think we can dispense with his trite and meaningless views on most subjects.
What is crucial, and indeed what Nick noticeably elides, IS language. When you see countries fracture, it is so very often along linguistic lines. All springs from language. Look at Belgium, a prosperous bourgeois part of stable northwestern Europe - yet perilously close to breaking up - precisely because of language. Ditto Spain with Catalunya and the Basque country.
Language equals culture. Culture often equals language. Indeed, the comparisons which Nick sarcastically cites when questioning the idea of “Britishness” - i.e. me, Jade Goody, the Sex Pistols, Dennis Skinner, Nick Griffin, etc. are telling - but not in the way he intends. They are telling because of the English language.
I’d say all these people, including me, are informed by the English language in the way they think and talk - robust, sarcastic, maybe a bit abrasive, belligerent, ironic, individualistic, stubborn, annoying, given to abuse. From what I’ve seen of the Queen in documentaries she shares some of these sarcastic traits.
The only exception in Nick’s list is the Archbish of Canterbury, But he’s a windbag Welshman so what do you expect.
Interestingly, as of last year, Georgia was ranked behind Russia in this ‘Democracy table’
http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/DEMOCRACY_TABLE_2007_v3.pdf
11. The grammar system of languages is always a silly way to compare cultures. Clearly the Hungarians have more in common with the Austrians than they do to some of their Finno-Ugric kin in northern Siberia. I would say there IS a European heritage, based on our inheritance of classical ideals, feudalism, a common European monarchy, the Enlightenment, industrialisation, religion evolving to come to grips with modernity, totalitarianism, being the centre of colonialism, and being part of a whole range of wars. This heritage is clearly more tentative than a national one, and I would say the British isles have been even more tenativiely linked to it, but I still say that heritage exists.
The problem with the language is culture thing is that it doesn’t really hold up under scrutiny. The Swiss have three different languages and a distinct culture. China has two mainstream ones, and a distinct culture.
But hey, don’t let me get in the way of you guys talking rubbish. After all, in Homer’s immortal words: Facts? You can prove anything with facts.
29. Religion is also a big fracture if you look at the reason the Flemish left the Dutch, and the Croat/Serb/Bosniak split in Yugoslavia, or Catholic Ireland versus Protestant Britain, or even the nonconformism maintaining Welsh separate identity.
23 Falmouth & Camborne could be one of the big LD losses of the night. - It certainly would be a surprise considering its been abolished and split into 2 seats Camborne and Redruth where Labour start in theory as challengers and Truro and Falmouth. Assuming you don’t mean the former as Labour couldn’t gain a parking ticket from the Lib Dems at the next election at present, you mean Truro and Falmouth. This takes the best bits from F & C and Matt Taylor’s seat into the best prospect for the Tories in Cornwall. Be a good Tory gain but not hugely surpising.
North Cornwall - Be tight had the old incumbent been retiring next time would be likely to go Tory but as he handed the baton on in 2005 they have a chance.
South East Cornwall - Is Breed retiring do you know.
32. Fatuous. To deny that language is extremely important in defining cultures is just adolescent. Look at Quebec. Look at France - a universal culture imposed BY the adoption of a universal language. Look at English nationalism, which rose and fell and rose again - with the English language.
In fact, don’t bother looking. Your argument is so specious you are either on a wind-up, or suffering cognitive deficit.
I shall be kind and ignore you, either way.
30. Not by Freedom House:
http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=363&year=2008&country=7475
30 see 15
22 As seriously as Napoleon considered a Channel Tunnel before junking the idea. Sorry his net contribution was to write a mildly good book. That’s it.
33. Yes, of course. I wouldn’t deny the important role of religion in defining culture and therefore nationhood. Though I think religion has lessened in importance, certainly in the west, as we have become more secular - i.e. you can imagine Belgium splitting because of language (i.e. culture) you can’t really imagine Belgium splitting between prods and left-footers, can you?
Along with religion there is also geography, and race (or clinal variation, as I know you like to call it
).
Right now I’d say in the developed world a country is more likely to break apart over language (i.e. culture) than for any other reason; likewise regions are more likely to accede to other countries over language, than any other reason. Cf the Wallonian moves to unite with France.
If Scotland still spoke Scots, or even Gaelic, I have no doubts the Caledonians WOULD secede.
Spelman is a babe, would be a shame to see her go !
32. No-one was making as extreme a claim as one language = one culture. Moreover, I think you’ll find the different parts of Switzerland do indeed differ quite significantly, and the Swiss think of themselves as Swiss-French or Swiss-Italian etc.
31/32
But then if you ignore language (and fly in the face of anyone who actually studies the basis of culture when you do so) then what criteria would you set for a common heritage. For everyone of Socrates’ examples we could find dozens of exceptions amongst people who would, by legal definition, be considered as belonging to a European country and so - I would assume - you would class as European.
What point of reference do you have for the claims that there is such a thing as a shared cultural heritage amongst such a diverse group of cultures?
Some of the examples given by Socrates are immediately suspect. Would you limit a European culture only to those countries which had practiced Feudalism - primarily to the Frankish kingdoms and the Holy Roman Empire? How do you define feudalism as a root of European culture when the term itself only came into existence in the 16th century?
Is there a minimum number of wars you have to have taken part in to be counted as European? Are some wars more important than others? Does Switzerland not count because it hasn’t been in a war for the last 300 years or so?
Once you move away from language as a root of culture you find the whole concept of cultural affinity starting to unravel very quickly. At that point it becomes little more than a tool for the politicians to try and justify their own pet projects, bigotries and biases.
15 - No, the rumblings seem to be anti-Labour’s legislation, but not pro-Tory yet.
37. The Germans were pretty sceptical about the prospects of a successful cross channel invasion even in 1940-1941.
36 - That’s a map of political freedom, rather than democracy, which I think explains the variance.
41. Feudalism also varied widely between different countries. The Anglo-Saxon culture of England had a tendency to economic freedom and social mobility long before many in Europe.That’s why our kings don’t have deformed faces and hare lips like the Hapsburgs.
37
I will simply have to say thaht I take Churchill’s perspective on the relative threats as more compelling than your own.
If he can credit a man who became one of his staunchest enemies with being responsible for changing British naval policy in a positive way (and he should know because he was First Lord of the Admiralty at the time and so was to a great extent the architect of that policy) then I am inclined to consider that as close as we will get to the truth.
Book about Cameron out tomorrow - ConHome not impressed
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2008/08/white-van-man-a.html
I did like this though:
DYLAN JONES: “What’s your favourite political joke?”
DAVID CAMERON: “Nick Clegg, at the moment”
DYLAN JONES: “What’s your favourite political joke?”
DAVID CAMERON: “Nick Clegg, at the moment”
Cameron should have compared Nick Clegg to neil Kinnock though!!! Missed opportunity!
41. But culture is a difficult and complex, almost intangible, thing. It’s a whole bunch of overlapping circles, some of which you can be a part of, some of which you are not. No one particular circle is definitive to someone being in or out, but its a matter of degrees. I’m not ignoring language - I agree with SeanT, its very important. But I think the broader language family idea means next to nothing once it spreads with vast geographic gaps. And there’s a lot more other factors in culture than language. It’s just one overlapping circle. Equally I would agree that the British Isles have overlapping circles with Aus, NZ, Canada and to a (slightly) lesser extent, the USA; just like Spain does with much of Southern America. But I would still say there are other circles which link Britain and Spain that the USA and Argentina aren’t included in. And on the other hand, England has many, many more circles with Ireland and Scotland that neither continental Europe nor our ex-colonies our included in.
I think this view in the world bothers a lot of people who like to have a clearly defined view of the world, but its intrinsic to a proper conservative “endless sea” of the world.
46 I’m not disputing any influence potential or otherwise on policy. Paranoia was rife and threats however unlikely could trigger big changes. For instance HMS Warrior came into being because of a sudden panic that Napoleon III might try an invasion. That doesn’t mean it was ever as a big a threat in reality as people thought at the time in question. Indeed a North Sea invasion against the royal Navy with no air power to counteract it was questionable. With or without Scapa Flow.
47.Saw the article in the Mail on Sunday supplement thingy by Dylan Thomas. He writes about his experience following Cameron over the last year for the book, thought it was very good for Cameron. Quite amusing in places too, especially the story about Boris meeting Bush and that watch.
Re: 34 - Apologies, Punter, I haven’t really taken into account boundary revisions to the nth detail so the revised view of Cornwall might then be:
St Ives - LD hold
Camborne & Redruth - LD hold
Truro & Falmouth - Con gain
North Cornwall - Con gain
South East Cornwall - Con gain
St Austell & Newquay - Con gain
12. I think that’s right. Yougov’s polls show that Conservative voters are by a long way, the most likely to believe in God, and Lib Dem voters are the least. Bear in mind though, that even among Conservatives who are atheist or agnostic, there are very few who would share Laurence Boyce’s hostility to religion. Most regard Christianity as an ally of Conservatism, rather than an opponent. I’ll repeat what what I posted on Iain Dale’s blog.
“Generally speaking, a Conservative is respectful of the traditions and beliefs of his own people. He finds much to value in the past, and much to admire in his ancestors. That is one reason why centre right parties tend to have large numbers of religious believers in their ranks, and why those of their members who aren’t religious are generally supportive of Christianity.
Added to this, Conservatives tend to be socially conservative, and in terms of values, have much in common with religious believers, whether or not they are believers.
It’s why, for most Conservatives, an anti-clerical Conservative Party would be a contradiction in terms, and why no more than a tiny minority within the party would wish to abolish faith schools, or ridicule religious believers.
And it helps to explain why those atheists or agnostics who hate religion can fit more comfortably into a left-wing party than a right-wing one.
Making the Conservatives an anti-clerical party would, I think, finish Conservatism as a viable political force in this country.”
Because most “humanists” (in the modern meaning of the word) tend to criticise religion for being socially conservative, then it’s virtually inevitable that it is only left-wingers who are sympathetic to their argument.
53 Ah, I see Laurence Boyce is not, in fact, a Conservative.
Labour resigned to defeat in a forthcoming by-election
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/2575114/Labour-resigned-to-defeat-in-Glenrothes.html
49
I don’t think anyone would seriously suggest that our cultural affinities with Europe are stronger than those with the US or Canada. Indeed in a way the only cultural affinity that might be genuinely recognised on such an international scale irrespective of language would be ‘western’ culture. To try and break it down to any smaller units - for example European as distinct from North American - makes no sense as any affinities one might try and suggest for European states as a whole would apply equally well to the US, Canada, Australia, Israel and many other parts of the world. Without the language link connections become so ephemeral and all encompasing as to be largely meaningless.
5. Very true. I’ve lived in the US, Australia and France. I know which one I was made to feel a foreigner in…
Anyone fancy answering the question of whether Spelman is toast?
Personally, I think this is much less of a deal than the nannygate saga - I happen to think that childcare should be covered for MPs, but to break the rules on expenses to get it, when the family income is probably one of the most comfortable in the House of Commons I thought was pretty disgraceful.
On topic: I hope so, or else the Morus Party might have another target seat
Following up from the last thread about the geographical distribution of the 2012 venues: IIRC from the bidding process, the IOC wanted venues to be as close together as possible.
55 A candidate for least surprising message of the century…..
52 Unsurpisingly Goldsworthy has now gone with Camborne and Redruth. But is Breed retiring. That would have a material effect on your prediction.
58. Of course she should be. DC should throw her under the bus immediately regardless of her culpability. It is possible to have a good resignation, you know. Having brought the Russian bear to heel and getting home in times for Britain’s Got Talent a decisive purge of corrupt elements in the party wil further bolster his image.
58, if it’s a case of her minion getting paid both privately and publicly, it only matters if he gets paid too much from the public purse, surely?
Not a fan of Spelman. I’m sure she’s very nice, but whilst Labour’s woman are patronising careerists, Tory women seem to be too mumsy, too nice. Justine Greening’s an exception, the little I’ve seen of her on the gogglebox has been much more cutting. Hopefully the new women of 2010 will be less Theresa May and more Margaret Thatcher.
58 - When Gordon Brown finally conducts his reshuffle, David Cameron will do his. I would have thought that would be the natural time to ask Ms Spelman to spend more time with her family (which would have the added benefit of eliminating any need for a nanny).
When I posted that I thought Spelman was one of the richest MPs based on familial wealth, I hadn’t seen this:
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/article8061.ece
Re: 60 - I believe Karen Gillard is the Lib Dem PPC for South-East Cornwall so the answer to your question is, I suspect, yes.
That’s the assumption I’m making in my prediction of a Con gain.
Getting back to the thread: I think Spellperson should go - not for the so called financial irregularities - but because she is a weak Chairperson of the Tory party. Whenever I see her on TV in programmes like ‘Question Time’, I want to cringe at her innane answers, and the monosyllable delivery.;)
62. Agree
63. Brown has some really tricky stuff this autumn from Reshuffles, to Labour conferences to By-elelctions that are already lost. If Brown plays the by-election long then it will probably follow a botched re-shuffle and not a brillant conference: There by just Slipping down another step on the staircase to opposition!
The Reshuffle is self-inflicted as he did not have to do one - he had it spunt to look as though he had momentum. He is now reacting to events and if he does not do one he will look weak and at the mercy of his cabinet. If Brown does reshuffle the cabinet then he will be painted as unable to work with people and is having to move people due to his inability to form and maintain working relationships. Likewise the Labour conference is self-inflicted because of Brown’s failure in the top job: no doubt he can write a book about that as well!
Oh dear - Jonah weighs in…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics/live_action/default.stm
1516: “We are immensely proud of what they have achieved so far, and inspired by their performance. Our Olympians’ talent and dedication represent the very best of Britain, and we look forward to another great week of British sporting success.”
Would you believe it? Prime Minister Gordon Brown gets in on the act
60 Yes Colin Breed is standing down at the mext GE . FWIW Wells has St Austell/Newquay as the most marginal LibDem seat in Cornwall but I agree with R and T’s notionals that it is in fact pretty safe . Truro and Falmouth is IMHO the most vulnerable of the LibDem Cornish seats - it was the only one in which the Conservatives outpolled the LibDems in 2007 locals by around 500 votes although the Independents as everywhere in Cornwall take too many votes for the results to be very meaningful .
52. LDs usually get a first time incumbency boost, so Cornwall North is safer than it looks.
South East Cornwall (opposite effect, incumbent standing-down) and St.Austell & Newquay (new seat) are better Tory prospects.
69, prepare for imminent scandal involving planted evidence at the British quarters in China, immediately followed by universal confiscation of medals and possibly a declaration of war.
72
I would have thought his advisors would have suggested he wait until the games had finished before making a statement like that. In purely practical terms, if by some fluke the British get no more medals after this (and many but not all of the medal hopefuls are finished now) then he is really leaving himself open to jokes about the kiss of death and the jonah touch. If a cyclist falls or a runner stumbles, the political press will have a field day.
69. Great he has just jinxed everything for the next week - does Brown never learn? You don’t pass comment on sports what you do is meet them at the airport for a group photo on their return or if he has flown out to China do one their. Pictures are more powerful than words - Maybe he is going to write a book on this as well!
70 I think that’s right as it both a new seat and no cimmbent. but South East Cornwall will be next most vulnerable. It always is for thew Lib Dems when a very glong standing incumbent retires. Hence why they were fortunate North Cornwall changed hands at the last election before the new Tory surge up the Polls.
56. I never said that the European link to Britain was stronger than that with the US, just different. There are some things we share with Europe that we don’t with the USA: most British people have more of an attitude that the state should step in to sort out unfairness than exists in the US, we are more internationalist in out look, we have had periods of socialism in our recent history, we had a home front in the last world war, we’ve experienced the collapse of empire, a profound decline in religious belief. All these things contribute to the popular mindset in noticeable but intangible ways. But yes, there are links in a greater “Western” world too. Like I said, lots of overlapping circles.
55 Marcia, is that a typo????????????, Don’t you nmean Labour resigned to defeat in ANY election???
73. Yes i agree!
Brown is really dreadful at the job: I think he must be the worst PM ever! I mean Gavin Strang probably has a better reputation with the civil service than Brown!
I cannot wait to see some leaked ‘insider thoughts/comments’ on Brown’s performance and ability at the job! She make some amusing reading!
77 if only
Nick Palmer on another thread asserted that Yes/No questions on Scottish independence tended to show ‘comfortable No’ outcomes. Here is ICM’s recent history on the subject.
ICM:
“In a Referendum on independence for Scotland, how would you vote?”
I agree that Scotland should become an independent country.
I do not agree that Scotland should become an independent country.
Don’t Know.
————-Yes No DK Predicted Outcome (When there’s a 5th stat that indicates desire for a referendum)
February 2007 44% 42% 11% 51%
January 2007 51% 36% 14% 59%
November 2006 51% 39% 9% 57%
January 2000 47% 43% 9% 52%
April 1999 47% 44% 9% 52%
March 1999 42% 47% 11% 47%
February 1999 44% 47% 9% 48% 74%
January 1999 49% 42% 9% 54% 74%
November 1998 49% 43% 8% 53%
September 1998 (25th) 48% 37% 15% 57% 69%
September 1998 (5th) 51% 38% 10% 57% 79%
July 1998 (31st) 49% 44% 7% 53%
June 1998 (29th) 56% 35% 9% 62%
June 1998 48% 37% 15% 56%
June 1998 (5th) 52% 41% 7% 56% 69%
As for Frances, I think she dealt more than capably with some of the anti-Scottish tripe that sometimes desecrates these threads..
53. I generally define myself as a humanist mainly because I think it’s petty to define yourself as an atheism, i.e. by what you don’t believe in, rather than what you do. But at the same time I don’t hate religion, I just think its based on some mistaken fundamentals.
With regards faith schools, I wouldn’t wish to abolish them, but I think they should take people from all religious backgrounds, mainly because I don’t believe in discrimination in service provision, especially when that service is funded from the taxpayer pot.
Do I belong in the Conservative party or not?
81, petty? That’s an interesting comment to make.
My religious position is atheism. There is no other way to describe it. I have no particular interest joining the National Secular Society or the humanist equivalent because I rather like the absence of a hierarchy surrounding my religious and philosophical thinking.
I don’t really mind either way whether Cameron sacks Spelman or not, personally I am left cold by stories about who politicians slept with or what money they’ve stolen from the people or what mistakes they’ve made/offense they’ve caused in their speech. Am I the only one?
I don’t see why people are denying we have a shared cultural identity with Europe. From the roman empire, christianity, the reformation, the enlightenment etc. it is pretty obvious that we do. Whether that is sufficient grounds to base a political body around is a different matter, neither does it diminish our relationship with the US etc.
76
But none of them make us closer to Europe than the rest of the world. You are simply picking meaningless facts out of the air which in no way support your contntion that there is such a thing as a European culture.
I actually find that most people who believe that we have any meaningful cultural affinity to ‘Europe’ as opposed to some similar traits with individual countries only do so because they have very little experience of living and working in those countries.
Right now I am sat in a hotel room in Stavanger. Norway is a country I like very much and I believe it shares more cultural reference points with Britain than most other European countries. Unfortunately for your thesis, many of those reference points are actually American. One of the reasons Norwegian kids are so good at English is because they watch US TV programmes which are on all the time - in English. Language again.
Play the William Tell overture in Norway or Holland and half the people of a certain age (mine) will immediately recognise it. Not as a great piece of European music but as the theme tune to the Lone Ranger.
You are right that there are circles and webs of contacts the world over. But my experience has been thaht they are no stronger between many of teh countries of ‘Europe’ than they are between countries in Europe and countries half a world away.
82. Well, I just think its like describing your political position as non-communist or non-Tory. I wouldn’t identify myself as lacking a belief in Zeus or Brahman, so why against a generic God? I assume you don’t believe in reincarnation either, so why not define yourself as not believing in that? You don’t have to be a member of a society to be humanist, in the same way as you don’t need to belong to a church to be Christian. If you don’t subscribe to humanist ideals, you could call yourself empiricist or rationalist or something.
Incidentally, there are plenty of organisations you can join without hierarchy in its thinking, and which tolerates plenty of room for debate. The Unitarian Universalists spring to mind. Personally, I think intellectual development comes best from discussion, rather than in a vacuum. Although I do understand if its not worth the bother to you.
“Do I belong in the Conservative party or not?”
I think so. But the idea of a Conservative Humanist Society (referred to in Laurence Boyce’s article) strikes me as being rather like a Conservative CND, or a Conservatives Against the Nation State.
83
With the exception of the Roman empire, all of those matters could apply equally to many other countries outside of Europe. In fact a few of them don’t even apply to some countries inside Europe. Norway was not part of the Roman Empire and here the Iron Age extends up to the 10th century AD.
My point is not that we don’t have connections but tha they are meaningless in trying to describe what we are. They say nothing about us which could not be said by more precise and accurate definitions. When we can’t even agree which countries are part of Europe we are hardly in a position to start ascribing some overarching cultural affinity to them.
81. I like to define myself as an atheist because otherwise religious people tend to assume things like I’m anti-clerical. I don’t believe in god. That has no relation to my position on issues such as faith schools or abortion.
I believe the fundamentals of humanism are a belief in empiricism, rights and responsibilities for all, and moral universalism. I would have thought that would have fitted right in with pragmatic British conservatism.
83 But the question is do the links form a culture? For a start, the Roman heritage was limited to a certain swathe of Europe. Christianity has spread far beyond Europe and is stronger outside the continent, while the enlightenment is rather like the industrial revolution in thought - everyone lives in a post-enlightenment age whether they’re in Japan or Brazil or Russia or Durban.
83 - G said “I don’t really mind either way whether Cameron sacks Spelman or not, personally I am left cold by stories about who politicians slept with or what money they’ve stolen from the people or what mistakes they’ve made/offense they’ve caused in their speech. Am I the only one?”
I take your general point about low/trivial politics, but can’t agree with it. I understand there are people who think politician sex lives are none of our business, but I think we deserve to know if someone who would lead the country is the sort of person who cheats on his wife. I understand that remarks are now overscrutinised by the 24 hour media, but I still think it’s serious if a politician tells a racist joke.
However, on both of those, I recognise that there are plenty of people who think that personal lives should remain private - and that’s fair enough. Where I’m really suprised, G, is that you don’t want to hear about “what money they’ve stolen from the people”. How can you include politicians’ public corruption to the trivia of talking about their private lives?
88. I have a comment explaining my position held in moderation at 85 on my numbering.
Great Blog post. I am going to bookmark and read more often. I love the Blog template - if you need any assistance customizing it let me know!
90. I think the primary common thread in European heritage is having liberal, social democrat and moderate conservative strands of their politics. I know someone will pick me up on this, but to my knowledge its rare to get all three outside Europe.
90. It’s not that I’m bothered about the division between private and public, if a person runs for public office then people have the right to base their decision on whatever they want. The reason why they leave me cold, is that my interest in politics is mainly due to it being a method for exploring political philosophy. The fact that politicians are greedy or h0rny or stupid enough to make a racist joke doesn’t particularly engage me as much as their views on the seperation of church and state or the liberty of the individual or the duty of the individual to society etc.
I accept your point about corruption but it should simply be a black and white issue. If a politician breaks the rules they should be punished. There’s no ambiguity and as much as partisans like to make out it is not restricted to one ideology. It’s a process issue and I’m a bit of a policy wonk.
95 - That makes more sense - cheers.
What people often miss is that many of the so called ‘anglosphere’ is often very loose in terms of ties with Britain. South Africa clearly because of its nature and history but the USA, which because of its mass immigration is not particularly British at all in many areas. Add France to the Canadian mix, Greece and the far east to Australia and so on.
As for language, my own field has been as much influenced by ideas from Germany, France, Russia, Scandinavia etc. and, more recently, from the Far East and other non European cultures as it has by its own heritage. The same goes both ways, our export of British arts has made other cultures much more like our own and American culture has made Americans out of all of us.
94
Its not that common to get them inside Europe. You cannot point to the last 20 years and say suddenly we have a cultural affinity because Spain is no longer a fascist dictatorship and Greece and Portugal are no longer ruled by Generals.
It is clear that your perception of what is ‘European’ accords closely with your own political views. Unfortunately whilst much of it may be an admirable aspiration, it does not accord very much with reality.
94. I’m sure Canada has those. What about Australia? NZ? What about South American countries or Japan? And also 98 - (What he says).
O/T Ed Davey (Lib Dem, foreign affairs) has written a pretty sub-par piece for LibDemVoice.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/ed-davey-georgia-shows-need-for-liberal-foreign-policy-not-mccaincameron-doctrine-3170.html
97
What those countries in the Anglosphere do have in common though, in addition to the language is a legal system based on the principles of common law. Legal systems do have an influence upon culture and that is seen in the cultural connections in much of the Anglosphere (like the term by the way)
100 Any information on 15.
98. I think I’ve established myself on here as a pretty strong eurosceptic.
Thanks for letting my 85 post out Morus.
97. But it’s not about race. It’s about culture, and how much of that goes along with language. Think of how divisive the ‘press one for English’ phenomenon is in the US. Many people feel like immigrants aren’t becoming a part of their culture if they don’t learn the language.
89 I need to explain myself better. Humanism can have the meaning you ascribe to it, which is of course quite compatible with Conservatism, and, for that matter, religious belief.
I was thinking more of the way that the British Humanist Association (and its Conservative equivalent) simply use “Humanism” as a synonym for being hostile to religion.
103. I wasn’t denying that. You have no need at all to explain or justify your position on the EU to me as you have made it clear before.
Believe it or not I hadn’t been thinking of this argument in those terms. Mainly because my Euroscepticism is based upon an opposition to centralising authority, not upon national or cultural boundaries. I am opposed to the EU, not to the countries of Europe. I would be just as opposed to it if it were all a British Imperial plot run from London. Europe and the EU are two very different things (as I know you agree).
This discussion on my part was about what defines culture not about particular political systems (though I reserve the right to throw in a few digs at the EU where appropriate). It was in terms of your personal political leanings (which I am not criticising) that I made the comment about your views on European culture and heritage.
105. “I was thinking more of the way that the British Humanist Association (and its Conservative equivalent) simply use “Humanism” as a synonym for being hostile to religion.”
That’s a bit 1984. Why not simply call them hostile to religion instead of misusing language for political purposes?
96. No problem. BTW Morus, I think the problem with MacIntyre’s (sp?) analysis is that not all axioms are equal. His axioms are less rational than traditionally rationalist axioms even if his system of moving from axioms to conclusions is as rational.
85. The problem for me Socrates is that rationalism, humanism and empiricism are unrelated and separate to my atheism.
101 - see 42. I’ve not heard anything about formal moves or meetings between the Magic Circle and the Tory leadership.
I don’t think Cameron’s views on abortion up to birth for disabled foetuses will help matters though.
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2008/08/david-cameron-e.html
107 - How can axioms be ‘less rational’?
‘Rational’ in this sense means ‘correctly derived by rationality’ - no axiom can be rational, because it is not derived from anything using rationality.
Davey’s position is fine but his argument falls down by trying to claim Cameronas a Neo-con, if he lacks that rudimentary political knowledge it ruins his point and makes me worry about hi sposition on the front bench )I am not a fan at all of him).
The best article I have read is that by Sir Mike Jackson, scathing of armchair generals and the sabre rattling of people like McCain, a dangerous president for a dangerous time.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/08/17/do1701.xml&posted=true&_requestid=125519
“For me, the right course for the West - without compromising its own position and values - is to show a greater understanding of why Russia behaves as it does, to accept more willingly Russia’s concerns for its Near Abroad.
While there are actions that we cannot condone, Russian perceptions exist and will take time to change.
This is the challenge for politicians and diplomats: strategic military hostility and confrontation must remain a thing of the past.”
Bit too much of a liberal though isn’t he?
110 - Bleeding heart, pinko commie-lover.
105. Ah, then it’s no good then. I assumed that a Conservative Humanist Association might be an improvement over the numpties that Polly leads (mainly because they would be conservative) but according to you it’s not so. Shame. (However, I would have to quibble that empiricism is compatible with belief in a supernatural God, but that’s an argument for another day…)
106. Hmmm. Perhaps. But isn’t it possible that your political leanings (out on the “libertarian right” for want of a better term) makes you less aware of the collectivist-left tradition we share with Europe? Your point also raises the question: what comes first, our political leanings or our understanding of the links/shared heritage between countries?
108 That’s true but he’s still closer than Brown on that area more generally.
101 - Anglosphere is a meaningless construct as the countries referred to are much more than anglo - it’s just a politically loaded but inept word.
I also think that the lives of people matter much more in defining culture, in the end, than structures.
109. The way I ‘ve use language may be wrong but the system of rationality in which axioms are simplest or closest to tautology is better than axioms which are complex and require a number of assumptions. MacIntyre suggests that all axioms are as good as each other that does not seem true to me. I am relying on your second hand interpretation of his work, I haven’t read his books yet.
108 I wasn’t suggesting formality. Merely social chats over what is the favourite tipple for them as they regularly used to with Labour Pols.
104 - The borders of places like the US are hardly historic. In places like New Mexico should people be forced to speak Spanish? In Quebec to speak French? In South Africa Afrikaans?
107. Surely everything is unrelated to a lack of belief in something, for the main reason that a lack of something lacks any connections! I would say the reason you are not a theist is because you reject arguments from authority, revelation, scripture etc, preferring to base your views on empiricist or rationalist foundations.
109. Argh! I have to go in a minute! We’re going to have this argument some time…
110
I understand and generally agree with Mike Jackson’s position. He was absolutely right to take the stand he did against Clarke in Kosovo and he speaks a lot of sense in the article - not least the fact that we didn’t do enough to help Russia after 1989.
But understanding Russias concerns about Near Abroad security does not mean we should accept their own definitions of what that means and what is necessary to achieve it. What was shown by 911 is that these days there really is no such thing as Near Abroad and Far Abroad. If Russia continues on its current path of thinking that force is the answer to all its ethnic problems and that it needs to militarily and politically dominate its neighbours to acheive its security then it is bound to fail. And it is not aceptable to suggest as some do (not you I admit) that places like Georgia, South central Asia and the Baltic states should be left to the Russian political and military influence simply because they are neighbours. We would not accept it of somewhere like Finland or Norway both of which share borders with Russia and we should not accept it of anywhere else either.
115 - I don’t think he ever puts it in those terms. The axioms are implicit (found by working backwards - actually no different to mathematics) and the rationality of each system of thought is culturally-bound.
I suppose from that you would have to say that axioms cannot be compared, because there is no culturally-neutral way of comparing the axioms that each culture’s rationality would expose.
MacIntyre’s only way of avoiding being a relativist is to claim that you can compare rational traditions according to their ‘immanent’ rationality (how internally coherent is each rationality, and do the axioms contradict each other). But by taking this position, it denies that you can compare axioms - just the quality of the rationality that allows you to uncover them
118 - If you’re in the UK, do you want to meet up in London when I get back from Denver? I want this conversation too!
114. It’s one overlapping circle. Just because there are others doesn’t make it meaningless.
122
on that I agree with you.
122 - The way it has been used is meaningless, as an attempt to create a group of countries without acknowledgement of the pull of other cultures on those nations.
If they were to talk about overlapping circles then that would be more illuminating but I have yet to see that in the sort of conservative articles in which it is used.
121. We could do. I’m a little hesitant as I’ve always maintained my anonymity online, but I’m giving serious thought to making an exception. Plus, there’s always the possibility you could be grooming me…
I just combined the SNP’s recent poll with that of the most recent Newspaper poll for the times: The result was quite interesting:
Party 2005 Votes 2005 Seats Pred Votes Pred Seats
CON 33.24% 208 45.00% 418
LAB 36.21% 346 25.00% 135
LIB 22.65% 67 17.50% 26
NAT 2.22% 8 2.22% 51
Tory Majority 186.
I used the Martin baxter regional predicter. The Tory, Labour and LD shares were slightly below the recent Times figures once i factered in the SNP poll: SNP - 44%, Labour 25%, LD’s 14%, Tories 13%.
http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.pl?CON=45&LAB=25&LIB=17.5&ScotCON=13&ScotLAB=25&ScotLIB=14&ScotNAT=44&NorthCON=34.7&NorthLAB=38.4&NorthLIB=18.2&NWestCON=37.7&NWestLAB=36.0&NWestLIB=16.3&YorksCON=43.2&YorksLAB=30.6&YorksLIB=15.1&WalesCON=33.2&WalesLAB=31.5&WalesLIB=13.3&WalesNAT=12.6&WMidsCON=46.7&WMidsLAB=28.1&WMidsLIB=13.9&EMidsCON=46.4&EMidsLAB=29.6&EMidsLIB=14.1&AngliaCON=55.5&AngliaLAB=19&AngliaLIB=16&SWestCON=50.6&SWestLAB=11.7&SWestLIB=27.1&LondCON=43.7&LondLAB=27.7&LondLIB=16.8&SEastCON=56.9&SEastLAB=13.1&SEastLIB=20.4®ion=All+GB+seats+majority-sorted&seat=–Show+all–
125 - Don’t flatter yourself, darling - you’re not my type!
Anonymity can be maintained, of course (unless you’re *really* famous, I won’t recognise you) - just remember to pay for drinks with cash, not a credit card!
Entirely your call. I fully understand the desire to remain unknown, even though my own mask has slipped a few times recently.
You Gov Sunday times poll encouraging for Lib Dems con 45,Lab 25,Lib 18
Numbers are identical to You Gov Sunday Times on 15 May
The Guradian ICM poll that followed closely on 18 May had con 41,Lab 27 Lib 22.
Will next weeks guardian poll give a similar result?
rogerh
101. as well as being pretty much civilised. Must be something about the English language, and the values of societies that have their origins from the UK which make them intrinsically decent and successful.
128. Who knows but i would not get your hopes up to much! On that poll from the SNP and the Times - The LD’s vote was distorted the least! But the LD’s only got 26 seats! That calculator is good for the LD’s as it takes into account incumbancy that no other parter does: they changed it last year as the LD’s were getting no seats at one point! In some ways this may make the Tories underperform in England!
Still it’s fun putting figures like that in now when they come from *real polls* rather than 10 years ago when non-Labour/LD inclined people had to make figures up for cricket score majorities!
129. What about Japanese, Koreans etc? I remember at Uni one eastern asian bloke was in tears after setting the fire alarm off from burning sausages! I was a student warden in halls and turned it off and said don’t worry about it! Maybe he would have his head chopped off or his hands removed or birched or something over there?
There’s a piece on that book “Cameron on Cameron” due out tomorrow on the BBC News site
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7566979.stm
Given the subject of this topic, this seems an apt quote
“Sometimes maybe I put off making decisions that maybe I should have taken earlier,” he says.
132. Interesting! I think Cameron has dealt with this as required (Spelman), lets remember DD quit around the time of spelman: If Cameron had reshuffled then he would have been made to look as though he was a victim of events (Or DD would be calling the shots). This way Cameron has retained his reshuffle card to counter the PM’s. No point shuffling the deck until you know what the other side has done!
131 — Anybody, from any culture, *should* feel stupid and embarrassed if they set a fire alarm in a busy building off by mistake.
134. Yes but there is no need for tears! Maybe it wasn’t his day!
134. Feel embarrassed? Yes.
Be in tears and need reassuring he’s not going to be in trouble? That’s a stretch…
132 And what a surprise from the Beeb that the quote is in the context of Cameron calling Brown a ditherer.
The difference, of course, is that sometimes Cameron puts off a decision while Brown makes a career out of it.
I am rather sniffy about Brown making a comment about the Olympics so quickly after a good day for medals, while a Russian invasion of another country calls for no comment from our PM until upstaged by the leader of the opposition.
One takes courage and conviction the other needs …………….?
There’s a particularly pernicious stand of sociobiology which claims that centuries of repressive samurai feudalism bred the Japanese to be servile and obedient. It can’t be stressed enough that in fact peasants’ revolts continued to occur during this period, and indeed grew more frequent, not less, as the age of the samurai neared its end.
I believe Francis Fukuyama has written about how the human brain evolved to accommodate eccentric, inventive thought processes, which is why totalitarianism will never be tolerated by all of the people all of the time.
Not that this really has anything to do with accidentally setting off fire alarms, I confess…
I cannot believe Sky News saying that Labour should take a share of the credit for Olympic gold medals - they say “Labour diverted lottery funding into sports”. Crikey, there was me thinking John Major set it up against Labour opposition citing the good Lottery funding would do for sports and Social activities and it was Labour that were the real innovators………..
138. Yes, there was an interesting documentary on the great wall of China the other day showing how it was built and one particular bloke was really brutal cutting off peoples heads for not obaying him! Not sure what cutting peoples heads off was going to do other than deminish an inadequite work force but i suppose others feared having their heads chopped off as well!
The bloke who set the fire alarm was alright, once i said it was not a problem!
Michael Brown on Sky News; obviously he believes the myth that Wilson and Labour benifited from the 1966 world cup win! The 1966 world cup had no long term gains for Labour and indeed Wilson won his ‘near’ Landslide several months before the World Cup! Whilst i would conced Labour didn’t really hit the nuffers until 1967 and the devaluation i always think it is questionable this relationship between sport and politics.
“Will Cameron move to sack Spelman?”
I don’t think he will because he wouldn’t have too. I believe that she would resign if her difficulties were shown to be damaging the Conservative party, but I could see Cameron being ruthless in a reshuffle if she is not up to the job despite her gender.
142. Cameron has shown before he is not afraid to wield the axe.
An interesting article which is worth reading from Jim Wallace the former leader of the Libdems in Scotland.
It’s hard to win when chaos and confusion reign at Labour HQ
137 “I am rather sniffy about Brown making a comment about the Olympics so quickly after a good day for medals, while a Russian invasion of another country calls for no comment from our PM until upstaged by the leader of the opposition.” Witan
Very nicely put.
Been diverted for a few hours, but the thread discussion on culture was interesting. Richard Tyndall and I were both being provocative - I don’t really think there is no common British culture, and I doubt if he is really baffled by the idea of people feeling European - but I agree with a lot of the comments above. these things are relative: it’s true as Thomas says that people think of themselves as “French Swiss”, but also true that they mostly think of themselves as more Swiss than French or German or Italian - you see the same pattern in America.
Britain hasn’t encouraged double-barrelled cultural identification (e.g. Polish-British) but to some extent it’s happened anyway. The idea of a completely distinct British culture probably died with the Norman invasion. But I agree with Richard that “where little cultural affinity exists I find that basic human decency is far more important than artificial constructs for political ends” and perhaps that’s a good note to go to bed on.
WRT the earlier conversation about North Cornwall, I don’t think that Dan Rogerson will get that much of an incumbency boost. Granted he’s not done anything “wrong” as such, but OTOH he is certainly not in the same league as Paul Tyler. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a Conservative gain here at the next election.
141,Hiya,Martin,its Patrick(the self-confessed social democrat from Bournemouth who vote Labour next time holding his nose-with freedom to walk outide and cast expletives
Serioulsy,hope your jon hunt is going well-I remember unemlpymnet between summer 1991 and spring 1992..,der which party presided over the longest recession since the 1930s?Oh well-its in the past (ish)
Meat of my post is:
Are you aware how plotically Harold Wilosn called the 1970 GE to co-inicde with England’s defence of the World Cup.History as it is-England lost on the Sundat before polling day in the quarter-final,to West Geramny 3-2 (after leading 2-0 with 20 mins to go)
The following day,Monday 15th June 1970,DISASTROUS balcance-of-payment figures were published.
As I recall,from the Butler-Kavanagh 1970 GE guide,the leads went:
Sunday 12.6%
Monday 6%
Tuesday 3%
Wednesday 1.something %
And what was voted for on Thursday 18th June 1970 is forever history.
FWIW,I do believe Englands World Cup departure finally finsished Wilson,as a fair-weather gimmick-grabber-which sounds harsh coming from a Labour voter,but sometimes things have to be said
148. Thanks Patrick; the Job search goes in surges of interviews then - nothing! Employers seem to be taking an age to decide - it’s not just me but like this in other areas, a recruitment consultant told me recently (Someone will probably come on here and tell me i am wrong as they are a recruitment consultant!
). I am determined to get something soon as i find unemployment socially & economically limiting! Indeed i have been that focused on employment i have even tried all sorts of wiered and wonderful combinations of sectors! Some people should be coming back to me this week on jobs and i am really crossing my fingers!
With Wilson, i am always impressed by his intellegence, political cunning and his general demeanor. An impressive fellow and i always take a look at his statue in his Huddersfield when walking to the railway station!
Yes, the football thing always seems to run close to Wilson but i think it would be odd if people voted on that: It was more likely to be the “pound in their pockets or purse” that people made the ‘executive decision’ on in 1970! Wilson was just too clever by half and got kicked out of office! Brown seems to want to go one better and get he and his party hung, drawn & quartered electorally and then put in a food processor like Kenny evourite once did!
With that thought i will go to bed! Night!
148/149. Memories of that election..
http://www.titanictown.plus.com/1970/
slightly OT, but does anyone know if County Councillors are supposed to read emails? I emailed one @surreycc.gov.uk back in March, but got no response. What’s the best way to deal with them?
151. No - county councillors are forbidden by law from reading emails. They are statutorily required to do all their communications by quill and parchment.
137.”I am rather sniffy about Brown making a comment about the Olympics so quickly after a good day for medals, while a Russian invasion of another country calls for no comment from our PM until upstaged by the leader of the opposition.”
Witan, good point. Strong leadership means having the courage to take tough decisions without the benefit of an instance poll, trying to ride the wave of others success only takes opportunity.