Is Gord looking too pleased with himself?
October 10th, 2008
Should he avoid appearing as though he is enjoying the crisis?
After all he has gone through in the past twelve months you can perhaps forgive Brown for feeling a sense of relief that he has now an issue to deal with that apparently plays to his strengths.
But is he looking too pleased with himself? He appears to be enjoying the crisis just a little bit too much. Isn’t there a danger that his demeanour might be seen as not being appropriate for the times the country is going through and the very real worries that millions of people have?
Ben Brogan in his Mail blog writes:“..After today one of his mates might like to start whispering “momento mori” in his ear whenever he starts looking like he’s enjoying himself. The Tories certainly hope the voters will notice that the architect of the “Age of Irresponsibility” is rubbing his hands with a bit too much relish. Two things now threaten Mr Brown: recession and reshuffle. Economic pain will shape the views of voters in ways we cannot yet fully know. And there is still much to play out from the changes of last week, which seem a lifetime ago. The economic crisis has masked the fact that this Government now looks like the Sopranos. Bad blood is inevitable.”
Whether this will affect voters’ view of Labour we shall have to wait and see. One little finding in this week’s Populus poll just out today ought to worry him.
Nearly two thirds of those questioned felt it “was time for change” and of even more concern 47% of Labour voters from 2005 shared this view.
Mike Smithson
MessageSpace Advertising
Yes. There’ll be a price to pay…
I think so! He shouldn’t look like he is revelling in misery!
Unfinished article?
The “Hooray, economic disaster!” approach won’t play well, the question is how deep and how serious the damage is. That’ll be partly down to the media (mostly in fact) and partly down to the Tories and Lib Dems replaying the ‘hilarious’ collapsing banks joke over and over.
Are we expecting any polls this weekend? (S Times YouGov?) The coneference effects should have unwound and it would be interesting to gauge immediate responses to the financial crisis/bank bailout/Iceland etc.
410 - For too long (in both personal and business (see Private Equity) worlds) there has been an attitude to borrowing that all that matters is that the interest payments could be serviced.
Nobody ever stopped to ask what would happen when the loans were called in and couldn’t be refinanced.
To many “doom-mongers” were ridiculed because they couldn’t predict precisely the day when it would all go wrong. It’s no comfort to know that they were essentially right all along.
responding to Sean Fear at 400 on previous thread- It sounds like you and your friend have come to a very sensible and realistic conclusion. Once a party becomes the incumbent party, the shine wears off very quickly. Not that people are ready to swing back whole hog to the alternative immediately, mind you, but the starry eyes phenomenon passes quickly. Then the other party starts winning at one level or another as a “protest” vote.
As you suggest, it seems very realistic for Labour to start to see big swings in its favor in lesser elections, such as local elections, almost immediately after the Tories finally take back Westminster. Similarly, I expect the GOP to likely take back the governor’s mansion in Virginia in 2009 and possibly also New Jersey (we’ll have to see how events play out for a while first). Then comes the start of a swing back to the GOP in the 2010 mid-terms (call it a course correction if you like) followed by a wild election season in 2012. That’s the early view, anyway.
Bless him! Let Gordon enjoy himself while he still can. Of course he should be pleased with himself - nobody else is pleased with him - apart from one particular PB regular. At least he is getting out more and if Britain goes bust at least he can say he tried.
“The LibDem candidate in Glenrothes doesnt look a patch on their Glasgow East lad who was easily the best candidate though ironically least successful.”
Easterross October 10th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Agreed.
The fact that the Lib Dems had such an atrocious performance at Glasgow East was exacerbated by the great candidate they had. It was the party people did not like, not the candidate.
If you have a cracking candidate then there is zero excuse for a poor performance.
I do not like the look of their Glenrothes candidate, and I very much doubt that the electors will be overly impressed either. Lindsay Roy is a hell of a sight too mind you…
If a few photos and bits of film of him smiling and enjoying himself could be paired with some of his contradicting statements then that could produce an interesting reactions.
“Is Gord looking too pleased with himself?”
Yes.
I am beginning to think that he may actually be barking mad.
Anyone got any thoughts on whether the problems with the banks could save the high street from significant declines in consumer spending?
10. It is as if he knows he shouldn’t be smirking but is simply so pleased with himself he cannot help it.
Gordon’s latest thing is to “look strong” by going around “ordering” people to do things.
First “ordering” the banks to lower mortgage rates. Then “ordering” Iceland to pay up their bank’s liabilities. Today “ordering” petrol providers to reduce prices.
Voters love this sort of thing in the short term but it usually unravels.
It depends on the line taken by the press.
If it’s not followed up much by the press and/or the bailout is fully successful, then no problems.
If the economic crisis worsens and/or the press decide to wave the issue around a lot, then it could be poisonous in the long term.
Hostage to fortune, I’d say.
10. Beginning? You’ve only recently come to believe so?
11 - I don’t think so. It is going to be interesting as we go into the Christmas sales spike. We will see declines in top end sales to start with.
There seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the latest Populus and the Politics Home tracker. As usual PH thinks everything in the garden is lovely for Gordon. As usual they’re wrong. Dunno why they bother, must be quite embarrassing for a bunch of ‘experts’ predicting the public mood to fall flat on their faces so often.
11. Unlikely, as somebody in retail the medium-term indicators are dreadful.
16 - You don’t think there’s anything in the idea that people aren’t exhibiting “normal” recessional behaviour? What’s the point in cutting back on spending, if you’ll lose any money you choose to save?
In other words, the decline on the high street will be delayed, because people will only stop spending when they run out of money, not in anticipation of running out of money.
13. Brown’s ordering is going to lose its impact as the public rapidly realises everyone is ignoring his demands. Iceland appears to have told him to take a running jump.
Go on let Glum Gordon have a walk on the sunny side of the street - suddenly we can see Gordon “Chubby” Brown, bon vivant, man of letters, global statesman, joker, all rounder.
The G7 are anxiously study his leaflets “Guide to doing everything you can” & “Seven Steps to Global Financial Stability” in Washington, desperate to understand the method and approach that bought him greatness, eager to all become Brownites. How to be bold, to break from the old staid approaches and adopt his single-authored solution (Sweden? who?).
Literary types are fawning around, aghast at their inferior writings against his new Opus on Heroism, tastefully decorated with a bashful picture of the Hero himself.
His opposition have been silenced by his outstanding wit and shake before him. Old people throw flowers as he passes grateful for the little he has nmanaged to find to help them with their fuel bills “I wish I could do more” he cries”but those poor beggars in the City do need whatever mites I can spare”.
Glum Gordon will be back all too soon….
Watching Bloomberg makes me wonder - has anyone ever considered setting up a UK focussed business channel? The problem with everyone relying on American channels is that the focus is always on America to give a lead. Europe just moves lemming like in the direction of America.
21. How true, He’s a sort of bi-polar Walter Mitty.
The Dow has settled the day down about 1.5%. That should give the Asian markets a chance to catch their breath and perhaps even head modestly up for the start of trading in Europe.
Although it could be all impacted by whatever is agreed by the G7 - assuming they can get their ducks in a row.
19 - Oh I don’t think people will exhibit normal recessional behaviour. I think you will see an age split, under 35s will try to ignore it and carry on as normal. Older people will rationally belt tighten. I think we will see a double dip. I think what we are going to see is that people will exhibit unrealistic behaviour. I think the problem is going to be that the lower socio-economic groups are going to suffer first because they have funded their spending from credit and the tap is off!
Test
He can’t win on this site - it’s only a week or two since people here were moaning that he looked knackered, miserable, obviously sleepwalking, etc. In fact someone claimed the other day that he looked terrible when the package was being announced by Darling, within a few posts of someone accusing him of looking happy.
He’s ust shown why he hasn’t got it like Blair.
Blair would proect an anxious seriousness in these times. Brown laughs and jokes.
On party backbiting Blair would ust brush it away casually. Brown projects that anxious seriousness.
On a policy annouincement or good news Blair would project a controlled sense of excitement. Brown plods through in monotone.
He’s not projecting any empathy and that’s his problem.
19 “people will only stop spending when they run out of money, not in anticipation of running out of money”
Plenty of people are reaching/have reached that point anyway. Winter heating bills are concentrating minds already focussed on higher fuel and food costs.
A Cabinet Minister was telling me recently about the time during the Iraq war when photographers were on all-day watch outside his house. The entire family had to practice absolute inscrutable faces, since any smile or frown would be spun by the media.
Gordon Brown
If he looks nervous, they knock him.
If he looks confident, they knock him.
If he looks sad, they knock him.
If he looks happy, they knock him.
There’s always an angle. For Pete’s sake it’s getting dull.
27 Nick - I think the first three words say it all don’t they?
Sorry but too easy a target.
28. But we are always told to look out for such change of moods in people whose health we are concerned about.
The dust is settling, as we look round the sheer enormity of the mess is clearer. Brown presided over this growing crisis which started a long time ago. He has been at the levers of the economy for nearly 12 years. He oversaw the debt and the encouragement of debt. He and Blair went along with the US on world policy. At home he positively fueled the inferno and starved out the productive sector. He is still doing it. Jobs are being lost and more jobs will go. He offers nothing but prances around trying to claim cerdit for putting out a fire he stoked up.
I always thought there was something wrong with him, but laughing and joking at a time like this I find truly disturbing. He seems completely disconnected from reality.
I don’t like his tone; note how often he says “..(so and so) will be punished..we will stop (so and so).. (so and so) will be banned..etc etc. Why is the leader of a left wing government so fixated on punishment?
On another topic; much has been made, with the benefit of hindsight, of peoples alleged stupidity in saving with the Icelandic banks with their higher interest rates. Does nobody remember the constant flood of sneering newspaper articles accusing the British public of stupidity and laziness because everyone hadn’t switched bank accounts from the sleepy high street bank to some go-go internet bank paying higher interest rates?
Please, God, the sooner this lot are out of office the better.
27. 30. A Draper double! Although not the usual suspects!
34 I am not sure God does poltics.
6. I think things play differently if one party has been in power for a long time and the newcomers don’t overreach themselves. Then the first couple of years of policies are the best ones the party has that people were wishing for, and it keeps them up relatively high.
Nick P: Seriousy do you defend all this bullying of Iceland by our great leader?
35. Then put me down for a treble. This a pretty limp thread.
30, ecstasy over an economic implosion is seriously abnormal. Do you think his joke was well judged and will look wise and witty in retrospect?
I thought the anti-terror laws would only be used against a serious and credible threat.
41, Labour are rubbish at designing laws. The anti-terrorism powers are clearly far too sweeping, this is just one example, others, such as Walter Wolfgang, are also well known.
re 27. Nick - I am picking up what is being written elsewhere. This story started with Ben Brogan who is pretty Gord-friendly.
But it does reflect something more fundamental. Tony Blair instinctively knew how to look and act so it resonated with the public mood. This was part of the repertoire of qualities that made him the election-winner that he was. Brown is nowhere near as good.
You might think it trivial but in this 24/7 media age it is almost an essential.
27. The trouble is Brown looks so sinister when he’s smiling. When Browns happy you don’t look at him and think; Doesn’t he look happy. You look at him and think; Whats the devious one cooking up now?
Thats the problem.
No, he’s looking confident and reassuring the public. The last thing we need right now is a sense of panic. Brown is playing this very well indeed. I didn’t think he had it in him.
Actually (having thought about what I just wrote) perhaps he’s looking a little too cheery. Things must be REALLY bad.
38. I do. Not a Brown supporter, but in a situation like this - grabbing assets is a sensible strategy. If Brown did nothing money would have flowed offshore and propped up Iceland, the UK (and depositors) would be in a far worse position. OK, the use of anti-terrorist legislation is naughty (and another good reason for abolishing it, ID cards, the idiotic extradition treaty with the US), but if Brown hadnt people would be asking what had the government done when we were being robbed.
45, ideal for the Zeitgeist is stoicism and a stiff upper lip, much undervalued British traits, I think.
30 Jonathan,
He’s “just getting on with the job” - joking and campaigning at a Literary Festival and pushing his latest book? He’s “doing whatever is necessary” - touring the country on some ego trip while stock markets fall, pensions are devalued, jobs lost and details of His Solution haven’t yet been finalised. He hasn’t put out the fire, he’s offered a possible firebreak that’s not yet been tested but you would think from his demeanour that he has won some great victory.
I don’t want him to look nervous, tired, fraught or over-stressed, confidence, yes that’s great, but this is someone on a high - claiming to have bought down oil prices for f***s sake.
33. But didn’t you know, its all the Tories fault. Even though they haven’t had a sniff of power for 11 years, everything thats going wrong is down to them.
42 - Well you could argue that they are rubbish at designing laws or that they design laws that can be interpreted with a wider scope if necessary.
42. I am no longer convinced that with this govt it’s all just cock-up - yes a fair bit - but there’s some conspiracy as well!
8. Stuart. I think people in Scotland realise that there is no point voting for a minor party who refuse to go into coalition. Why vote Lib-Dem when you can vote Labour instead (if one is anti-referendum)?
27. 30. If you guys think he looks fine …fine.
43 The reason it is noticible is that it contrasts with what went before. I for one am glad that the PM is looking and sounding confident right now. The very, very last thing we need is a sombre funereal nervous PM. Cameron looks uncharacteristically nervous.
Anyway I bet if you had been under the sustained personal attack that GB has taken, you’d be relieved when it was over. We expect far too much from our politicians of whatever party.
27. It’s about being appropriate Nick. Suddenly perking up like this when people are watching their pensions being flushed down the toilet isn’t really appropriate.
He also seems to be under the impression that other world leaders take notice of him. Orders to Iceland, orders to OPEC. Sounds good but looks ridiculous when they take no notice of him.
46. But it was also the tone of the criticism - Brown playing the bully cos it was just Iceland - and the result Russia is gonna bail them out. Blinder Gordo!
43 - Gordon Brown just isn’t as good as Tony Blair. Fact.
And he’s not as good as David Cameron will be either, that is his major problem.
His other major problem is ‘no more boom and bust’ which, frankly, will be his political epitaph.
I think Tony Blair could actually have performed well enough in a crisis like this (he could have sacked Gordon for a start) to take Labour aheasd in the opinion polls. Thanks, Labour, for kicking out Blair and giving the Tories the next election, though the Tories will probably end up fire-fighting the entire first term and might struggle to win more than twice.
38. Iceland deserve all the bullying they get. If Brown had done nothing, some on here would have been demanding that he freeze Icelandic assets. I suspect Mr Scampi would have been one of those.
54, so confident he’s laughing and joking about more banks collapsing?
Cameron was tentative at PMQs, true, but it was unusually lacking in adversarial jousting.
What was interesting was that Brown’s glee at economic difficulties seemed to be matched by his backbenchers, thrilled to bits at financial turmoil.
David, Blair would not have sacked Brown.
He daren’t.
I’m surprised more hasn’t been made from the opposition parties about what Brown did to Iceland. When you think about it, using anti terror laws on a friend and ally like this was pretty outrageous and has certainly inflamed the situation. Iceland clearly are in no mood to negotiate. It would have been much better to have friendly discussions first, rather than blowing it all up like this.
Then again, we all know Labour PM have “form” of falling out with Iceland in the dying days of their administrations.
For me its not a matter of appropriateness - I just think it’s weird. No one should be that happy when they just bet the farm on something this risky. It may be the right thing to do, it might be necessary, it might show leadership, but I still find his demeanour odd. Normal people just arent like this under pressure.
46 He didn’t have much to say about Georgia.
59 I thought Cameron was playing it slightly wrong at PMQs as well but now I wonder if he has studied Brown enough that he knew sacrificing a pawn would result in this frenzied egotism. I had Brown down as having an unusually good PMQs until he threw in that unnecessary glib dig.
58. Ideland may deserve all sorts m8 - frankly I think the fact that 300,000 of them stick it in that god forsaken hole is punishment enuf but it remains unedifying for one of the World’s richest nations to be bullying them in this way. Surely if the British economy is as fundamentally sound as gordo keeps telling us we could have bailed them out for a few months instead of leaving them to the tender mercies of the rooskies.
57 Until recently Cameron has been portrayed as a sort of politcal superman. Paeans of praise have been sung to him across the media. But this week Cameron has been at best an empty suit.
He has not been impressive at all.
Cameron may very well still win the next election, such is his poll lead. But no political leader is as good as Cameron has been portrayed.
Clearly, there is evidence that Cameron is not nimble or good in a crisis.
54. ‘Cameron looks uncharacteristically nervous’.
No. He has just stopped smiling.
58. Bullying no. Seizing assets yes. Gordon has talked tough and somewhat inappropriately. But using what laws were available is the way the cookie crumbles.
66. Tell you what - let’s have an election and find out.
66. I luv it the way the luvvies keep on underestimating DC. they just never learn.
62, see the Daily Politics? They had a psych on who reckoned he has an inferiority complex and wants to be loved, and so spends a fortune (also believed the Mandelson return is self-mutilation virtually).
If accurate, he’ll think people will see him making this enormous decision with an absolute fortune and think he’s super. Back to Gordon the Great.
He wanted oil prices to fall, and look, they have!
I dislike him a lot, and will be quite merry when he loses the general election, but I do worry about the state of his mental health. I hope he doesn’t crack when recession arrives.
No opposition leader is ever going to look that good when they are supporting the Govt. Cameron is sensibly judging that the short term effect of not looking good is a lot better than being accused of partisan politics in the middle of a financial crisis.
68.But using what laws were available is the way the cookie crumbles
Exactly - this why ID cards stink! this is why 42 days stink! this is why Nulab stinks!!
66 “Clearly, there is evidence that Cameron is not nimble or good in a crisis.”
When a poster uses “clearly”, then it is no such thing. Clearly …
27.That was me, and he did look knackered because they had been up all night!
71. I am worried about what happens if the banking crisis escalates and people start blaming him.
68. But its going to be completely counter productive because Iceland will be in no mood at all to give back any of the money that has been lost. International relations and deplomacy is all about the softly, softly approach until all avenues have been explored.
And in any case, while we’re on the subject, I heard this evening that Darling was warned months ago that the Icelandic banking system could be in trouble and he did absolutely nothing.
71. The recession has arrived…. but he doesn’t seem to have noticed… too busy posturing.
72 - I think it is a tough judgment to make, and it is tough to make the balance!
37 In terms of secondary votes, no. People are voting against you almost from day one. Labour had 20% + poll leads in 1998/99, while still suffering substantial net losses to the Conservatives in local elections, and finishing behind them in the 1999 Euros. Kevin Rudd, in Australia, is way above any National/Liberal opponent, but the latter had big gains in the Western Australia elections, and will undoubtedly gain in later State elections.
So, it’s probable Obama will win comfortably, in current circumstances, and likely have comfortable Senate and House majorities. And if he wins well, he’ll probably win again in four years time, unless he proves very bad as President. But, in all likelihood, the Republicans will start regaining ground in lesser elections, because that’s what oppositions do.
77 - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7663596.stm
76, well yes, if the banking crisis gets worse and the £500bn fails then we’ll all have a lot to worry about. I rather hope we get away with a recession.
66. You have no idea what you are talking about.
I do. Personal experience.
You are so wrong, its funny.
76. Why? Gordo is one of the key reasons we are inb the hole in the first place - he set up the FSA/BoE regulatory split. He should take the blame - it’s just pathetic that he wanted to take out Iceland first!
29.”A Cabinet Minister was telling me recently about the time during the Iraq war when photographers were on all-day watch outside his house. The entire family had to practice absolute inscrutable faces, since any smile or frown would be spun by the media.”
Some families don’t have to practice, the first day of the action in Iraq a helicopter went down killing a handful of soldiers from my brothers regiment. We did not know where he was or what he was doing, but spent the day fielding phone calls from concerned friends.
And do I give a toss that a Cabinet Minister in a government that sent thousands of men and women to war had to worry about the media catching them smiling, get real.
83 was a reference to good in a crisis.
83 Bold claim. What personal experience do you have that gives you such a unique insight. Money where your mouth is SallyC. Tell all.
70 I don’t underestimate Cameron at all. I said he was still likely to win didn’t I? But saying that he has been ramped in the media to a point where he has been given almost super human powers.
This week has not been his best. He has looked a little lost.
If Cameron is an empty suit, what is Brown, a man who has prescided over an asset bubble. A man who claims to have fostered enterprise, but then destroys the economy. Brown is a man who has helped businesses…or large businesses collapse into to something smaller. How on earth we will find an engine of economic growth from a country with such a bloated public setor remains to be seen. Could Dolly Draper, Alistair Campbell and the assorted spinners identify the industries or firms which might generate the UK’s future wealth, or are they so in awe of the colosous with the feet of clay. Gabble, Roger you must be so proud of this muppet, so proud that your critical faculties have been left to shrivel into a heap.
One question Cameron might ask on Iceland is why when a website (moneyweek) was warning in March 2008 “if they’re Icelandic, then be afraid; these banks are starting to be priced for bankruptcy risk.” (see comment on the Ussher thread on Iain Dale), questions had be raised with ministers why wasn’t the FSA doing more to ensure retail depositors were protected or made aware of the issues.
I think grinning Gordon will play very badly because, although a week or two of looking/sounding solid in a crisis might have earned him some grudging respect from the British people, it isn’t enough to shift the electorate’s default position - namely, that for the last year, they have ceased to give him the benefit of the doubt.
If his words/actions can be interpreted in either a positive or a negative light, everything (ie general polls and specific questioning on the PM’s attributes) points to them going for the negative interpretation.
So, I reckon, it just depends on whether the media has tired of the ’stoic Gordon’ narrative and wants to switch to the ‘revelling in your misery’ theme, as to how damaging this is for Brown.
8 - possibly the least informed post on this site since Martin Day googled ‘Neil Kinnock’…
77. Iceland doesnt have any money. That’s the point. As the debts of the banks come up for repayment, the Icelandic govt will sell all the assets and still come up short. It will be short by tens of billions, or multiples of GDP. Iceland looked like it was going to extract liquidity from the UK, the UK government acted to preserve UK deposits.
Yes, it is true that the govt (and the FSA) were warned about the Icelandic banks by both a LD peer and a Conservative MP. The govt isnt blameless, but the actions of the govt were sensible.
66 - Utter nonsense. People who say DC is rubbish are as wrong as the Tories who said we’d find out how useless Tony Blair is. Those Tories were wrong, and these Labour supporters are wrong.
87. It is true that gordo has had a lot of exposure this week:
Cracking jokes about bank failures
Invoking anti-terros laws against Iceland
Ordering the World to cut oil prices
etc., etc.,
That old adage about any publicity is better than none never rang LESS true!!
66. If Cameron is not nimble and no good in a crisis, why did Brown call off an election when he was 12 points ahead in the polls a week before.
83. No chance.
I am a party activist - no more - but our paths have crossed in what turned out to be strange circumstances.
I am quite content for you to doubt me - although, frankly, there is
enough in the public domaine for someone widely read.
One of the commenters on Guido’s site (http://www.blogger.com/profile/13775753218753337766) posted the text of the legislation that enabled the Icelandic assets to be frozen:
4 Power to make order (1) The Treasury may make a freezing order if the following two conditions are satisfied.
(2) The first condition is that the Treasury reasonably believe that—
(a) action to the detriment of the United Kingdom’s economy (or part of it) has been or is likely to be taken by a person or persons, or
(b) action constituting a threat to the life or property of one or more nationals of the United Kingdom or residents of the United Kingdom has been or is likely to be taken by a person or persons.
(3) If one person is believed to have taken or to be likely to take the action the second condition is that the person is—
(a) the government of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, or
(b) a resident of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom.
(4) If two or more persons are believed to have taken or to be likely to take the action the second condition is that each of them falls within paragraph (a) or (b) of subsection (3); and different persons may fall within different paragraphs.
(2)(b) and (3)(a) seem to be easily satisfied in this case. The legislation seems to have designed to be used for the purpose of combatting a foreign state engaged in economic warfare against the UK or its citizens. Given that this legislation exists, it’s kind of hard to suggest that the government shouldn’t have made use of it: one of the government’s jobs is surely to protect British citizens against the acts (or omissions) of foreign governments.
In the meantime, the Tories have called for the rule requiring pensions in payment to be spent on annuities to be suspended http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article4916707.ece so presumably the Conservative strategy is going to be - ride the storm, make the occasional positive suggestion and make it look as if they’re doing something to drive the agenda. I imagine when it’s all settled down a bit, then the past 11 years is going to be moved back onto the agenda.
93 I didn’t say he was rubbish did I? By the sound of it you really, really want him to be Tony Blair almost as much as he does.
I for one hope is he as good as the hype, since he is still odds on to be PM and we’ll all have to live with him. I just have not been impressed by his response to this crisis. Fair enough?
I think you can take this cricism. How outrageous to criticise St Dave! Compared to the stuff that is dished out at GB day in day out it is mild. You can take it.
TIMES: The Government said that it would consider calls led by David Cameron for a suspension of pension rules to prevent people retiring now being disadvantaged by the financial crisis.
This is what DC has been doing.
96 Go on, give us a clue!
In a few minutes - BBC1 News reporting on the race factor in American election.
61: GIN, on the contrary, Iceland is negotiating with a UK Treasury team right now. I like Nordic countries as much as anyone else, but it would have been crazy to allow them to default on their obligations to UK savers while repaying Icelandic savers (which is what they were proposing) and sit idly by while the Icelandic banks withdrew the money from the UK.
I’d ask whether you and scampi were expressing Tory policy on these matters, but as Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne appear to have entered a Trappist monastery, it’s not reasonable to expect you to know.
101 johnboy. The Yeldarb effect ??
37- That may be true in the UK, but it seems that even there, the recently ousted party quickly begins to improve its results in local elections, European elections, etc. Note that I didn’t say they immediately start outpolling the dominant party, but they do quickly regain ground.
In the U.S., it is the execption, not the rule, for a newly installed incumbent party, particularly one installed with total control, to maintain that standing for long. Exceptions can always happen, but they shouldn’t be expected. The last time one party swept in and managed to avoid losing serious ground for an extended period was when the Democrats managed it post-1932. Since then, all the examples point to reasonably quick comebacks for the party out of power. The only two periods since 1932 where a party has managed to extend dominance at least into the medium term were 1960-68, where the Democrats managed continuous control largely on the shock and sympathy factor following the Kennedy assassination and, to a lesser extent, 2000-2006, when the GOP largely managed to maintain slender overall control. All of this points to the likelihood that the GOP will make a faily quick comeback to at least general parity. The landmines that Obama is likely to face early in his term will only heighten the risks for the Democrats as well as the opportunities for the Republicans.
Hi guys. My girlfriend has just asked: what happens when the bank betfair keep all your stake money in goes bust? Could do with a good response to reassure her. Any advice?
re 66 ‘Clearly, there is evidence that Cameron is not nimble or good in a crisis.’
Sorry, Jonathan. What about the Tory conference last year when he was under huge pressure amid the Brown bounce, election fever (and the expectation of defeat) and a summer of criticism about grammar schools and Rwanda trip during floods? He held his nerve, pulled off a brilliant speech and saved him and his party from likely defeat.
This week, he has merely kept a lower profile than normal because he promised co-operation with the govt in a crisis and, realistically, could say or do little, as an opposition politician, to improve or influence the situation.
That hardly constitutes buckling in a crisis.
102. NP, MP: Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne appear to have entered a Trappist monastery
Unfortunate timing, coinciding as it does with posts 97 and 99.
I don’t have any problem with the Govt action to protect Uk interest viz Iceland.
Like with everything else that doesn’t excuse the shameful inaction that got us into this position in the first place.
105 - I dunno but what are the odds of that?
87 - Did you see Cameron’s interview on last Sunday’s Politics Show during which he calmly and persuasively articulated the case for bank recapitalisation that was effectively the package introduced on Wednesday? No nervousness or diffidence there.
At PMQs, he strove to seek common ground with the government, but from the outset was drowned out by the orchestrated barracking (by Nick Brown) from the Labour benches. And Brown’s snide parting shot merely reaffimed the crass partisanship.
I think Cameron was geninely taken aback by this and thus ‘lost’ the encounter. However, I’m pretty sure his learnt the lesson. Put the boot in and hard - it’s the only language that Loutish Labour understands.
105 - It’s RBS so the country goes bust.
82. I am not saying that the £500 billion package will fail outright, but I am suggesting that some of the government guarantees on interbank borrowings are actually called on. I am disturbed by the scale of Lehman losses* and the pressure on Morgan Stanley.
* When Lehman failed people suggested bonds would be fully repaid. A week later it was down to 40%, today it settled at just under 9%. This on outstanding bonds of US$150 billion or so. Then borrowings of another couple of hundred billion (I dont know what the repayment rate was on this proportion). The CDS settlement is a headline US$270 billion. The numbers are worse than I had thought.
110 - it was quite incredible some of the defences put up for the shameless performance of Labour MPs last Wednesday.
Mostly along the lines of “if you can’t take it, you shouldn’t give it” - which totally misses the point of bipartisanship and suspension of normal political hostilities.
Latest Newsweek national poll :
McCain 41% .. Obama 52%
http://www.newsweek.com/id/163337
112 - News from the US was suggesting that the Lehmann losses weren’t as bad as expected. Is that consistent with this post?
Newsweek Poll: Obama up 52:41 (were both tied on 46 in their last poll)
http://www.newsweek.com/id/163339
114 Slower - but with more information. You pays your money…
114 Slower - but with more information. You pays your money…
106 Sadly in a real crisis, rather than a self inflicted political one like Dave’s Grammar School wobble, it takes more than a good speech to solve the problem.
As a matter of record he has not tried to keep a low profile. Dave was due to be on GMTV on Thursday, but got pulled at the last minute to be replaced by the PM. It is pure spin to say that Dave’s low profile has been by design.
110 Cameron was putting “the boot” into bankers at the time and was caught out as a bit of a hypocrit. I guess Dave should be left alone to say one thing on Sunday and another thing on Wednesday and never be “taken aback”.
Anyway, come on guys my critism of your St Dave is minor compared to the stuff you dish out at Brown. You can take it. For him, he’s had a bad week. And surely your poll lead will still be there. So what are you worried about?
101. did you watch it? not insightful in any way
64.”59 I thought Cameron was playing it slightly wrong at PMQs as well but now I wonder if he has studied Brown enough that he knew sacrificing a pawn would result in this frenzied egotism. I had Brown down as having an unusually good PMQs until he threw in that unnecessary glib dig.”
Ted, Cameron and Osborne smelt the coffee at the start of their conference and immediately changed their strategy and their tone. Its that kind of instinctive timing and the natural leadership skills that Gordon Brown simple cannot produce. During Cameron’s speech he was backed up by Osborne and Hague, no smiles or complacency.
Just on Wednesday some Labour posters on here gleefully commented on how ashen Osborne looked, the other half noted that was because he probable realised the implications of just how bad things were economically. Just look at the way both parties backbenchers behaved.
76.”71. I am worried about what happens if the banking crisis escalates and people start blaming him.”
He will stand down.
Newsweek coming out tomorrow has Obama leading McCain by 11 points 52 - 41:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/163337
92. If the Icelanders are so short of money they can just go out and kill more whales. A great source of both nutrition and fuel.
105. My response would be “Betfair? What’s that?”
66. Nonsence! What do you seriously expect DC to do? Yes he has as highlighted under 110 not been idle. He could also aggressively attack Brown on financial issues but if he did he could upset the markets even more and make the banking support package less likely to work.
110, I concur he was taken aback, but I’m sure he was considering whether to retaliate or stick to softly softly (which he did).
It will be interesting to see how long that lasts.
115. The CDS losses were slightly worse (last bond prices are 13%, auction price 8.6%) the good news was that no one blew up.
What worried me was that Lehman’s losses are so large.
119, GMTV, where one presenter had a front row seat at Labour conference and another is the other half of Draper? Shocking they might show a little bit of bias.
100. No.
re 47 The smiling assasin.
1. QT on Thursday.
2. This Week. Including Boulton commenting on the inapproprate joke.
3. 5Live this yesterday afternoon.
4. 5Live this morning.
5. The Daily Politics.
6. Brogan.
7. Here.
5 wasn’t negative, but the others all made some slightly resentful reference amid more positive comments .
121. I agree with your revised analysis but have doubts if Brown will stand down until very close to the GE when he knows he would also definately lose.
New Rasmussen poll for Oregon :
McCain 43% .. Obama 54%
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/oregon/election_2008_oregon_presidential_election
Are we all waiting like a coiled spring for the outcome of Troopergate? If they recommend charges be brought against Sarah Palin, could it be The Old Cheerio Routine?
119.
When bankers award themselves huge bonuses, its a matter for the shareholders and the board that runs the company. Full stop.
When the Government bails out the bank, with public resources it becomes a matter of the government how much some people are paid.
The two are quite different. We all have a financial interest in the publically funded organisation
119 He is keeping a relatively low profile. People like Michael Heseltine and Kenneth Clarke are being put up for Question Time. Cameron and Osborne are not publically pontificating, making the sort of statement that would get them on the news. They are still there, but not making as much noise as they could. DC is Leader of HM Opposition: even in an economic crisis, he can get on the news if he wants to.
It is not hyprocrisy to (a) be happy that, in good times, bankers are rewarded for success and for enriching shareholders and (b) suggest when they have f***ed up so badly they have driven their banks into needing a government bailout, they should get nothing (and preferably be fired). In fact, any reasonable remuneration policy would seek to do just that, although I’d suggest there should be more emphasis on the long term.
124 I am sorry I have touched a raw nerve. I honestly didn’t set out to be quite so provocative. Just saw a few chinks in the great Dave’s armour this week. At least we’re all cheering on Obama
127 I guess it’s only the Telegraph and the Spectator who tell it like it is.
128 I will ask for more at the next pb.com party.
Sounds like very, very good gossip. When is that party BTW Mike?
Night all.
It’s a long time since I heard anything that sounds quite as stilted as George Osborne using the slogan ‘Age of irresponsibility’ several times in the same interview. He sounds like he’s got Tourettes syndrome.
And your point is what Roger?
134 - Not provocative, just your usual entertaining and good natured self. Yeah, yuou’re right - we can and should take it in good spirit. That’s politics
131. is the report going to be made public?
128 Its not gossip. Its just none of my business.
But I saw a side of him and learnt something.
He is a very strong person.
125. I agree. He was taken aback but decided not to allow himself to be diverted by it.
He is not usually short of one liners. Though Osbornes the worst.
He has a wickedly sharp sense of humour and has to tread carefully.
Jack W, it ignored Yeldarb effect - said the polls might overstate Obama because of racial attitudes and provided unfavourable comments from people queuing for a Palin rally to demonstrate the resonance of the allegation by Palin that “Obama is not like you and me.” One person admitted race would be a factor. Therefore concluded there was a motivated stop-Obama vote. Without making any allegations, BBC made the Republican campaign look extremely ugly. Also reported on Palin investigation that result is awaited as the inquiry panel read the 1000 page report- so far on page 50.
I can well understand why Gordon Brown would feel more relaxed when the story is not about him. He would, however, do well not to show it quite as obviously.
So far, Gordon Brown has done the PR side of the crisis fairly well (I will not pretend that I understand whether the substance is any good). I mean that in the sense that he looks serious and determined. However, the general public do not understand why banks should be paid money and in their enthusiasm to dish the Tories, they have neglected to deal with the criticism from the left.
If Gordon Brown can look concerned and at the same time explain why it was important to support the banks, he would deservedly reap rewards.
140 Johnboy. Thank you.
138 Supposedly the Troopergate report comes out within the next hour….but they are reviewing it page by page. And the report apparently is 263 Pages long and has over 800 pages of evidence.
re119;
But Jonathan, whether self-inflicted or not, last year was a far better test of how Cameron responds in a crisis than this. Obviously, his personal/party’s crisis last year is utterly trivial compared to the current global financial crisis - but in terms of objectively assessing his mettle, the former was the telling indicator.
He was directly in the firing line then (and turned British politics on its head). He is not now, because he is little more than a bystander, so you can’t really judge him on it.
By pointing out that he was going to be on GMTV but was ditched when Brown became available, you prove the point that his views, as an opposition leader supporting the govt, are of limited interest to the media at the moment. That’s an inevitable fact of life, not proof of failure in a crisis.
139. I think you should stop there
30 “There’s always an angle. For Pete’s sake it’s getting dull.”
Oh the irony
Noticed that Cable was on C4 news but no sign of Tories, reminded me of the CCO (as it was then) muppet who told me the reason there was nobody on Newsnight when Estelle Morris “lost” all the A level results was because “nobody watches Newsnight, so we never bother”
This week Brown has seemed more sure of himself and the country appears to be crossing their fingers and hoping he really can bring us through it. HOWEVER. The most striking phrase was one I heard on Radio 4. In 1929 all the central bankers and world leaders had lots of experience yet the Great Depression still hit. That experience did them no good at all. Gordon Brown presided over a benign period for the economy where he basically did nothing. His experience is not relevant to the circumstances we find ourselves in.
In the long term DC and the Tories will benefit from this crisis. Brown designed the regulatory framework, Brown ran the economy for 10 years, Brown sold our gold, Brown said no more boom and bust. But DC and GO need to start appearing on TV and backing the moves being made to get us out of this - an appearance of difference will fuel the fear in the market and could drive things down. That is why Nick Brown’s co-ordinated offensive on Wednesday could have been more damaging than expected. Politics is occasionally for grown ups. Today is one of those times!
Crick getting it all wrong on Newsnight!
alex at 113: the point was that Labour MPs didn’t think DC was being genuinely non-partisan - as Quentin Letts (no fan of Labour) pointed out in the Mail, Cameron’s questions had barbed subtexts, but were phrased to look non-partisan. People who are consistently fair get a fairer hearing, though PMQ is always a bearpit.
Brown looks dreadful whenever he is on the telly, people have not changed their view of the Government in the last week. Indeed, when advising friends of the Times piece on Nationalisation of the Banks that appeared on the Times Website and then misteriosly disappeared, one ventered a sheer contempt for the BBC’s hand in all of this. I know people who have been given there cards in the last week - they see a wiered Bloke smiling at peoples’s misfortune and a group of Labour MP’s breaying about some partisan point.
Without wanting to sound like a Mycthite Commie Basher - this endless leaking at weekends to the media by some person in the Treasury about Government plans is dreadful - indeed it amounts to a Socialist Putsched against the private sector. These commies need hunting down and shooting as they are screwing the economy.
Brown’s smile is beginning to show up more and more on tv and is beginning to attract comment among my friends at work, not positively either. Plis Nick Palmer’s arrogant assumption that the tories are silent was nicely burst by finding out they’ve been working on the pensions issue, makes you wonder why the government hadn’t thought about that yet.
Newsnight suggesting we might slash defence spending… it is unbelievable!
Poor man on R5 phone-in tonight, sold UK house went to Aus all money in Icleland now he and family have nothing at all. £160k gone.
“But DC and GO need to start appearing on TV and backing the moves being made to get us out of this”
Interesting point. Alex Salmond has been getting in on the story in the Scottish media on that basis.
Yet I’ve been struck how almost invisible the Conservatives have appeared to be.
149. His questions were easy, he made no sharp attacks, yet the government benches couldn’t even handle THAT amount of questioning? And Brown had to wait until he knew Cameron couldn’t respond to make an attack? Kinda shows his level of courage really.
Palin’s Troopergate scandal was fabricated by Bill Ayers — really, read it here first!
http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/bookman/entries/2008/10/10/the_palin_troopergate_report_w.html
150 Agree that the leaks have been extremely damaging. Note that the co-ordinated rate cut was remarked on because nobody leaked it! This leakage is causing direct financial damage to the economy and anyone responsible should be prosecuted.
156 According to the Speccie the decision was sorted out by the BoE and Brown was onl informed as he went into PMQs.
So there wasn’t any time for them to leak it.
149. I watched that Commons exchange and I think the Labour MP’s performed like it was a partisan free for all - Cameron acted like a statesman, Brown & your fellow MP’s behaved like naughty Children.
You were not in the chamber IIRC - the scene i saw from the Labour MP’s and the quotes in the press about *Labour’s Falklands war* and somebody doing Communist phrases do not enhance Labour’s reputation IMO.
154 Exactly my thoughts on PMQ’s.
In future, Cameron may save his final question for the Burma-style statesman issue, to rob Gordon of this cheap shot.
158: ‘You were not in the chamber IIRC’ - true!
BBC website top Crunch story - “Peston: Global solution needed”
What the f does he know? Is he reporting it or making it?
I notice how the gov’t have been keen from the off to stress this is ‘global’, and how obliging the BBC have been in trailing every bulletin with their ‘global’ economic crisis tag.
Time for some analysis of UK domestic financial regulation surely? Come on the beeb - scrutiny of Mr Brown’s record. The buck’s got to stop somewhere…
160. Well, ‘thy shall not speak badly against a fellow PB.com poster!’
Going back to the Times article a further modification, someone seems to be leaking and it is in the Times:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article4922053.ece
Such was the level of panic, however, that officials gathered in Washington were forced to contemplate the previously unthinkable: that Britain’s enfeebled banks may face outright nationalisation if Gordon Brown’s £50 billion bailout fails.
147.”Noticed that Cable was on C4 news but no sign of Tories, reminded me of the CCO (as it was then) muppet who told me the reason there was nobody on Newsnight when Estelle Morris “lost” all the A level results was because “nobody watches Newsnight, so we never bother””
Did anyone ever put that famous Newsnight programme where Jeremy Paxman sat opposite an empty chair(government tub of lard moment) because a government Minister would not come on the show to defend something or other. Paxman said something along the lines of “no matter how bad things were, the last Conservative government had some one who turned up to take our questions”.
161. No, we do need a global solution. The wretched derivatives and the scale of counterparty risk are such that we need a global solution.
Yes, Gordon should take responsibility for the regulatory environment. He presided over light touch regulation and embraced BIS II. To be fair no one in power saw the problems. Group think and a misplaced belief in market prices. He 100% should carry the can as the man in charge. But firstly I’d prefer that we actually got some stability before asking who captained the ship into the iceberg.
165.Thats it, a new laptop beckons, that should have been Did anyone ever put that famous Newsnight programme *on youtube*.
Bullying Iceland is a bizarre performance. The idea that a Nation can be held responsible for a Company’s debt is a new one. Would Gordon try the same with Russia?
We can all see what Gordon is up to. He want to have his Falklands War. After looking around, he reckons that he can take wee Iceland.
The Icelanders do not respond to bullying. No island race responds to bullying… Not, Britain… Not Ireland… Not Iceland.
So, it is back to the 1970s and the Cod Wars. Does Labour not learn? Iceland didnt back down when Britain’s Navy had a 500yr old reputation.
Gordon is a grinning, drooling, autistic clown. We have Forrest Gump running the country.
This is a terrible question to pose on this site. It just plays to all the usual suspect’s prejudices. Cue 400 posts on how Gordon is a moron and Dave is great.
My honest opinion:
I think Brown has handled the current crisis reasonably well and obviously (if ironically) feels more comfortable on his old stomping ground of finance even as it all goes tits up. I think there is a feeling that people would rather have Brown than Cameron right now because of his experience. Osborne is a liability. He looks out of his depth. Darling has looked as good as he can do. Electors have yet to feel the full force of the coming wave of recession so aren’t yet in blame mode. When they are Brown will be blamed. It all depends on when that wave hits as far as his electoral prospects are concerned. It is more than likely over for him already, but there is a slim chance this could be the salvation of him if it takes long enough for the effects to be felt that there is an election in the meantime. Unlikely but possible.
Oh, and to answer the question, I’m sure his advisers are telling him to tone down the joviality as we speak, although I for one thought that his joke the other day when the mobile phone rang showed a human side that we don’t see enough of. Dangerous ground though. Expect serious Gordon back soon.
168. Agree totally.
Brown’s picking on Iceland is crass in the extreme.
Where was he when Russia invaded soverign Georgian territory with military force?
Nowhere.
But when a few stupid UK councils put their money into failing Icelandic banks, he gets all tough and it’s Gordon Stalin.
He’s a piece of work, and he is toast.
Interesting reference on UK Polling report (Wolf)- “Judging by this week’s council by-elections, Labour is getting a whipping” .Anyone have the details? Mark Senior likes to quote by-elections as being very significant, I believe.
167 Don’t know if that is on YouTube, but Douglas Carswell was revealed to have asked Facebook users for a clip of No More Boom and Bust.
168 “Bullying Iceland is a bizarre performance. The idea that a Nation can be held responsible for a Company’s debt is a new one. Would Gordon try the same with Russia?”
Er… Iceland has signed up to be a member of the EEA. One of its companies, Landsbanki hf, availed itself of the EEA Passport arrangement, which meant that it could trade in the UK with Iceland responsible for the first E20,000 of customers’ deposits and the UK FSCS responsible for the rest up to the max FSCS limit.
In what way is Iceland *not* responsible?
What Nick Palmer is trying to spin is laughable. Whether Brown smiles or not is irrelevant.. I prefer him not to as it looks so FALSE and deceives NOONE.
What is relevant is
1) His reputation as prudence is down the toilet
2) He flogged most of our gold for peanuts
3) His imprudent spending, decoupling of the Bank of England as controller of all things fiscal, Non existent control of the FSA that he set up, and allowing a maniacal boom, leading to the house price crash.
4) His own Treasury said that Icelandic investments were 100% safe, Trust Gordo?? I dont think so.
These are the things that matter.. As for saying that Gordo was trying to get the price of oil down, thats not laughable its plain pathetic.
Gordo loves this moment as HE thinks it makes him look strong and in control. He isnt and it doesn’t. Voters are about to get very angry about their standard of living , pensions etc etc etc……..
171: Hard to say. I didn’t think this week’s results looked too good - we did well in one seat, lost another, and weren’t close enough to be in contention in the others. But PA’s analysis put us “just” 10% behind based on their usual extrapolation to the national picture, better than recently.
Here’s an article detailing the process by which the left-wing media, extending from the NYT and Washington Post, right on to the blogs, twist and distort in an attempt to paint Republicans in the ugliest possible terms. Of course, people read and believe these lies and assimilate them into an overall view, over time, of reality. It would be fascinating if we could determine the extent to which left-wing reality warping via propaganda manages to distort the electoral playing field in favor of the Democrats. The extent of the warping is truly shocking and worse than I’ve ever seen it before. People generally recognize that this is happening (a recent poll showed that half of people believed the media are trying to help elect Obama) but can they actually resist it? I doubt it.
http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon1009jl.html
173. Presumably in the same way that any state isn’t responsible for the performance of privatised institutions.
153.”Newsnight suggesting we might slash defence spending… it is unbelievable!”
After the time Cameron gave to the armed forces at this speech?
Seriously?
Edison Smith - The local councils (and at least one police authority) were putting their money in banks that had a triple A credit rating. Hindsight is wonderful but I am reminded of a retired investment banker who told me when Northern Rock was first under pressure, with confidence, that it was ridiculous because “no triple A credit rated bank has ever gone under”. Now I don’t know how true that was then, but after this week no doubt people will be more circumspect in the future. Local Authority Treasurers Departments have a duty to use best practice and get best value for their overnight funds and investments. If an authority strapped for cash can get 7% instead of 5% we should hardly be surprised they grabbed it - or blame them.
Other than that I agree with you in the long run - Brown’s economic record is shot and he will be destined for the dustbin of history.
174 There another fruitcake who thinks its all local and not anything global.
The reason he’s so happy is that he’s been short-selling on the stock market. Anyone else wouldn’t be happy the FTSE lost nearly 9% today!
173 177 Iceland is responsible for regulating their banking sector. Rather than attacking the UK government for using a piece of legislation with an unfortunate title that Lord Carlisle says is NOT terror legislation, maybe they should be answering questions about their own regulatory failure, and why their banks now owe more money than their economic worth as a nation.
178 Cromwell committed Regicide on the basis that Irish volunteers fought for King Charles.
What should Gordon get for cutting the defence budget as well as the armed forces during wartime?
(as well as signing Britain’s sovereignty to foreign powers)
176. Of course. It’s all the fault of the “biased media” that will cause McCain to lose. Same as in 2004 it was those “nasty Republicans” who caused Kerry to lose.
Maybe, just maybe, most American people regard Obama as a better potential president that McCain. And perhaps most American people felt Bush was a better option than Kerry last time.
160
Original Times article before it vanished .
British banks face nationalisation if £400bn bailout fails
Senior UK sources at the IMF in Washington gave strong hints tonight that if the British Government’s £400 billion bailout fails, the only option left to stabilise the economy and financial system could be wholesale nationalisation of the UK banking system.
The gravest warning so far during the global financial crisis came after one of the worst days on stock markets since the 1987 crash as panic selling swept around the globe, wiping an estimated $831 billion from the value of banks and industrial companies world-wide.
Finance ministers and central bank chiefs from the world’s big economies have been striving for weeks to quell the panic and fear ravaging global markets with plans to shore up their banks and prevent a full-scale meltdown of the world financial system.
As the Treasury was set to reveal details of the British bailout plan, sources at the IMF warned that, if this failed, then the only option would be the wholesale nationalisation of the British banking system.
[Continue reading]
182
If Gordon tried to slash defence spending, IMHO Cameron should respond with a vote of no confidence in Her Majesty’s Govt.
6 Flag
Given up 2008 already?
What thinkest thou of the filthy Palin/McCain campaign? A series of Republicans are now denouncing it for the disgusting drivel that it is. Was McCain this bad all along or has Palin dirtied the ticket on her own - and is the hand of Rove on this?
The Republican Party that was, has turned itself into the Nasty Party, just as the Tories were considered in the UK. Punters will steer clear of laying money on it for actual victories for several years to come, methinks.
Malcolm
173 So you are telling me that Iceland has no responsibility to pay any of Icesave accounts?
176. You have the reports on his first speeches to look forward to. Don’t envy you those. I’ll be looking away. ‘His firm, resolutely set jaw’, ‘words of reconciliation promising a new age’, ‘to be here was to …’etc etc ad nauseam.
185. I agree. Even if the vote failed, the disgusting amorality and cowardice of it would demand some such protest was raised.
183- You’re accusing me of saying things I didn’t say. Not very becoming of you.
169 Monty,Agree to a point but I think Brown’s decision to use the crisis, while it was still a crisis in a partisan manner has actually endangered its success.
Remember the Falklands debate? Did Margaret Thatcher have a dig at Michael Foot? Did Tory backbenchers bray when he spoke? Did Thatcher reject, at the time, Labours proffered support? After the victory, then yes she used it for partisan advantage and was attacked by the opposition over some of her decisions.
The success of the bail-out is in part predicated on confidence and support - Brown had offered to him on a plate a cessation of hostilities and support in a moment of national crisis by the leaders of both major opposition parties and doubtless many of the others would have joined as well. He rejected this opportunity, his supporters briefing journalists (not always the same story), having his gang organise the PLP, getting in a dig at Cameron.
His immediate concern wasn’t national interest, but how he could use this crisis to take forward his “experience” line, how he could build his reputation as a world leader to change perceptions. Thatcher achieved this but through results not a PR exercise while no-one knew the outcome.
This is a major crisis, he isn’t a national leader up to taking the country with him.
184. Senior sources, that must mean Darling? Is he not in the US. at the IMF talks?
186- Your contemptuous poison does not warrant a genuine response.
Turns out John Prescott, the then deputy prime minister in 2004, sent out Official guidance that councils should “seek the highest rate of return”.
So lets get this right, Labour, ordered the councils to “seek the highest rate of return”.
Yes Darling is in Wash. I think.
Why did they pull the article is what i wanna know.
195 More interesting is how/why the paragraph referencing nationalisation has reappeared. Maybe its just online re-writes but one does wonder if government lawyers & Times lawyers have been involved.
176- stars and stripes- I hope that you can now admit that Obama’s Biden pick showed great judgment and leadership, qualities that Obama has in spades.
Compare and contrast McCain. Hmmmm. And the liberal media is to blame for McCain’s downfall?
187 Under the regulatory framework in Iceland they have to pay out the first 20k euros. However as I understand things, it rapidly became clear that the Icelandic Government couldn’t meet their responsibilities so the UK Government decided to ensure assets were not taken out of this country using legislation on the statute book - not a misuse of terror laws, but a use of powers given for the purposes of avoiding a significant attack on the UK economy. Don’t know why everyone seems to be complaining, if the Government hadn’t used these powers the media would be crying out to use them.
193- comrade- a bit over the top.
155.Right tin hat again. I know that Salmond being on the news. But as Mike Smithson noted, there seems to have been a swing back to Labour in its Heartlands, including Scotland in a couple of polls. Now I suspect that despite Salmond being on the Scottish news, it the headlines in the national news with the continued bad economic situation that gaining people’s attention. And lots of exposure for the government along with it.
Bottom line, Salmond may be First Minister in Scotland, but all the focus and the action needed to try and rescue the Financial sector is happening down in Westminster. Also think that the push for a referendum on Independence, and the coverage about the that issue over the summer is also combining with Salmond’s obvious hopes for a Conservative government because he thinks that will work in his favour.
Its backfiring on him, the Labour voters were happy to give Labour an electoral boot up the backside when they have the option of voting for another centre left party in Scotland. But giving the SNP their vote at a GE and letting a Conservative government into power at Westminster is a different ball game altogether.
My other half is more in line with Easterross’s views on the likely outcome of the next GE, but I suspect that the SNP will not make the inroads into Labour’s heartlands that they require to make it a spectacular night for them. The recession might also mean a drop in support for Independence as well.
195. Well, If the Tories want to go political (Like the Braying Labour MP’s (Except NP) and useless Gordon Brown @ PMQ’s) on this all Osbourne has to do is ask whether Darling has been briefing in relation to this in parliament. Directly or indirectly if Darling is implicated or any officials on his behalf then he is toast and this can be instigated when Darling makes his parliamentry statement on return from the talks. It should help flush the source of these dreadful leaks and confidence shattering speculation out!
I have contempt for the whole NuLabour idea.
And yet I find it strange that Brownstuff is responsible for everything. How silly. Here in the US there is a general belief that the selling of sub-primee mortgages USA is responsible for this mess world-wide. I think that a lot of people also have a finger in the pie - and they are mostly the greedy; bankers and their shareholders, politicians of all stripes, consumers who bought on credit, the fourth estate who were happy to keep quiet because investigaive journalism in economics doesn’t sell papers or TV advertising.
I bet there might even be one or two posters here who secretly have played the markets and in doing so have made bucks out of the markets and gullibility of others.
No, that is far too difficult, put it all on Brownstuff.
Simple solutions are offered by Simple Simons.
I worry, all too often, that this site is being dumbed down by the mouthy and now we have to deal with the racists as well.
Malcolm
197. McCain is a decent man. If he had been allowed to be McCain in this campaign then I think it would have been much closer. He was bullied into the Palin pick and has allowed his campaign to be hijacked by the more unsavoury elements of the Republcan party.
His judgement and leadership qualities are clearly lacking. He can only blame himself for that, not the “liberal” media.
175
Nick,in view of the cavalier fashion that your government has used / abused the anti terrorist legislation,firstly with the extradition of the Nat West 3 to the USA and now to freeze Iceland’s assets;how could the public trust the government not to abuse ID cards in the same way?
199 - Your Highness, when Malcolm desists from prefacing every description about McCain with a disgusting “cancerous”, he might be worthy of a less than contemptuous response. And I speak as a 100% Obamarista.
198 Why is everyone complaining about Labour’s use of Anti-Terrorist legislation on our allies?
You dont understand do you. Well we do.
Because they are misuse of power. They say they ‘need’ the power for terrorists but Labour abuses the power for political purposes.
Same with Anti-Terrorist legislation used by councils to spy on households - or for their thugs to assault 80yr olds like Walter Wolfgang or people who defend 80yr olds like Steve Forrest.
202
You mean the sort of nonsense you posted about Mikes thread yesterday being tittle tattle. Well Malc, before you start casting aspersions, you would do better to look at home first.
200. You should post more often.
“how could the public trust the government not to abuse ID cards in the same way?”
Answer: they can’t.
The racial undertones and the smears against Obama are increasingly attracting more negative publicity for the McCain campaign.
Angry anti-Obama taunts grip McCain, Palin events
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i4OpiwXT-cn2aMmpTpiUVElig0FgD93NT6S02
202. Is Brown not being racsist by targeting the whole of Iceland for the actions of its Banks?
What if China lost Billions in Northern Rock, with their massive sovereign wealth funds would it be right to penalise the whole of the UK? When you think about it and I initially supported the Freezing of Icelandic assets - I have come to the conclusion it is not right! In the end we are going to end up having to give them foriegn aide, IIRC there econmy has contracted by about 10% already this year before the events of this week!
Further to my post on why I think Gordon missed a trick by rejecting opposition support in favour of sole authorship there is an interesting article by Matthew Parris in the Times on a National Government.
I can see circumstances where Gordon Brown would want/need a national government (at the least as someone who prefers not to be opposed that’s a way he could scrape through an election) but agree with Parris that the cost for a national government should be his resignation.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article4922449.ece
202. That’s a straw man - very few, if any, are placing all the blame on Brown.
It is possible to divide the blame, and Brown mustn’t be allowed to escape all responsibility.
202 You probably dont understand why a credit crisis is a problem for a country laden with debt then - because Gordon Brown is responsible for it.
Remember Gordon Brown who declared an end of Boom and Bust and embarked on profligate borrowing.
Gordon Brown, Autistic Clown, built a house of cards. A gust of wind blew it over.
hello all..first post, as a long time lurker, and old school Guardian liberal lefty, who has already swallowed hard, and made the (previously) impossible to contemplate, decision to vote tory in future elections on civil liberties grounds alone, the obvious relish Brown is taking in the fear engendered in less fortunate types than him depending on his brilliant judgment and his joy in acting the big man is horrible….not going down well in my workplace…….if this post works may try another some time
204 I agree that the Government has history on misusing terror laws but haven’t in this case. Lord Carlile (Government’s Independent Reviewer of Terror Legislation) was on Radio 4 PM prog and stated baldly that this was not terror legislation, simply a part of an Act of Parliament that also contained parts that dealt with terrorists. The name of the Act (The Anti Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001) is unfortunate. It does, however, contain other aspects of law covering a multitude of crimes.
176. Do you really think the New York Times and the Washington Post are in the same league level of partisanship as the Huffington Post or the Daily Kos? I could equally well group the corporate media channels with Red State and Rush Limbaugh and say how they are constantly biased to the right in how they endorse private property.
Just out of interest, seizing Icelands assets and sabotaging the Icelandic economy could be described as an Act of War.
Are we at War with Iceland then?
Taking on tiny Iceland is one thing but they are in Nato. I’m not sure we could take on the Belgians, French & Italians as well
210. I generally agree with the analysis of the article, but I don’t expect opinion in an AP reporting article.
211. Iceland is a dirty, thieving threat to our national security and it deserves to be branded as a terrorist state. Send in the task-force to reclaim what is rightfully ours.
214. Those “autistic” comments are becoming bit tiresome. It’s a condition not an insult.
215 how about dropping calling a police horse gay, shouting “Rubbish” or abusing a tree?
212 - I tend to disagree with Matthew Parris, Brown knows his history especially Labour history. He will know too well that the last Labour PM to head a national government is still viewed with something bordering on revulsion within the Labour movement.
This is why the Tories have been strangely quiet - they have been on jollies with their best friends the bankers. From the Mail:
“William Hague is facing awkward questions about his judgement after he joined a lavish Italian trip for Barclays executives on a black day for global markets. He spent Friday on the sunny shores of Lake Como, on the final day of a luxury break organised by the hard-pressed bank’s private wealth division. While he enjoyed the balmy surroundings of one of Europe’s most expensive hotels, where rooms can cost £1,000 a night, markets in London and America went into freefall.”
219 Who said it was an insult?
Gordon Brown, Autistic Clown.
Statement of fact.
212. This is not really like the 1930’s though! We are not yet at war with a genocidal maniac for starters (Last time I looked)! The Economic circumstances in this country are uniquely from the time of Labour government, who else has been in power for the last 11 years!
Indeed, Parris confuses this situation with a fight for state survival - not an economic case. The Economic based National governments cames from the Labour party being split and three parties vieng for power. There is a clear alternative at this time, the Tories. Talk of National Governments are nonsense and indeed Brown’s performance and that of Labour’s this week has shown their tru partisan motivations.
The rot had set in on the Labour government earlier this year before Recession - instead of talking about assisting Labour, the talk should be about killing it!
219 Ah yes, the dirty, thieving Icelanders. Good thing they are still white. It means you can be as racist as you like.
225. They kill whales. And I hear their breath stinks of rotten fish.
202. *you* are the only poster i remember on this site who believes that people should be discriminated against because of the colour of their skin.
222 He met with Barclays’s execs? So its not like he has anything to do with HBOS, RBS, B&B or come to think of it, Northern Rock.
Yes, Northern Rock…that money go round Northern Rock…with all the dodgy planning permission scandals, developments and donations to the Labour party…
227 Malcolm is very unique, partisan poster - and a wee bit vain. See how he signs each post.
Al Fresco
Actually these National Government things are the result of political fantasists! IIRC one in the 1970’s was for Harold Macmillan to become PM again! I think he got as far as planning ministers!
It’s complete tosh that Parris article - about 80% of the time he writes top quality stuff. Then he lets himself down with total B*llocks!
Its just Dacre barrel scraping for Gordon as usual. Noone cares.
Its a non story.
200. “But as Mike Smithson noted, there seems to have been a swing back to Labour in its Heartlands, including Scotland in a couple of polls.”
There have been no full-scale Scottish polls since Brown’s speech. There have been five UK polls, and in the Scottish sub-samples Labour have been ahead in two, the SNP have been ahead of two, and in the other one (ICM) the figures are irritatingly unavailable. Perhaps some hard evidence to back up Mike’s claim is round the corner, but it certainly hasn’t arrived yet.
On the broader theory about the ‘heartlands’, the Populus sub-sample for northern England has the Conservatives seven points ahead, whereas ICM claimed Labour was 14% up in the same region. This shows the danger in trying to discern trends from tiny sub-samples of polls with their inherently huge margin of error.
Am I the only person who disagrees with this universal theory that Alex Salmond is simply gagging for a Conservative government? A minority (or small majority) Labour government would suit him much better. Forget the referendum (whether it happens is out of his hands anyway) - his top priority is to retain power in 2011. The last thing he needs at that moment is a Labour opposition exploiting the mid-term unpopularity of a Tory government.
231 - It doesn’t look good. And not just the Mail…
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/money/article1796084.ece
220 I don’t get you Al Fresco. I agree that the Government should NOT be funding a national ID card scheme. I am frightened by the widespread use of powers such as the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, which was brought in to limit the power of MI5 (before the “War on Terror”) but has been used to spy on our own citizens by Local Authorities, police, security services and God knows who else. However in this case the legislation used was NOT terror legislation. The legislation in question is an Act of Parliament which happens to be entitled the Anti Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001. It contains chapters which ARE terror legislation. It also contains chapters which aren’t. It contains chapters on Crime for instance. Use of this legislation is consistent with previously announced Government policy (we will do whatever it takes) and in this situation is justified by the potential fall out to the economy if we don’t use it.
172.”167 Don’t know if that is on YouTube, but Douglas Carswell was revealed to have asked Facebook users for a clip of No More Boom and Bust.”
Paul, Douglas Carswell made the request on his own blog too.
182&185.Did Crick hint at Brown or a Cameron government slashing defence spending, James seemed to imply the latter which really did surprise me.
212.”Further to my post on why I think Gordon missed a trick by rejecting opposition support in favour of sole authorship there is an interesting article by Matthew Parris in the Times on a National Government.”
Ted, I posted about Gordon making a mistake by not bringing Cable and Osborne into the loop on a thread a earlier. The last paragraph is dynamite!
This is The Sun telling William off [not]:
Jolly silly
YOU’D have thought William Hague might have known better.
The Sun likes Mr Hague, the Tory shadow foreign secretary.
He is very bright and one of our hardest-working politicians.
But his common sense deserted him when he allowed himself to get mixed up in a Barclays Bank jolly to Italy.
Come home and have a nice cup of Yorkshire tea, William
233. A misjudgement. But it’s fairly tame. I doubt it’s going to change anything.
222.Shocking, he is the Foreign Secretary rather than the Conservative leader or Shadow Chancellor to boot.
224.Martin, the latest spin from the newly formed New Labour tribute band is desperately trying to spin this as Gordon’s Falklands. So we have lots of comments from Brown and his MP’s all comparing themselves and this situation to Generals and Military campaigns. Its very transparent and disgustingly cynical while we have troops in two war zones.
236 - Oh, the leader article is very kind. I still don’t think it looks good and I am surprised at Billy, my favourite current politician.
233. You beat me to it. It’s notgood but it hardly matters.
It was probably arranged ages ago and he decided not to treat them like leapers and say he can be seen out with them now.
lepers not leapers!
238. Yes and at the same time they float the idea of cutting funding to those real troops while they are at war. They seem to have reverted to some imaginary socialist wonderland where the troops can be used as pawns in a geopolitical game of ‘nationalisation’ and cleaning up the capitalist mess.
232: Looking at subsamples is about like swapping stories of our canvass returns - enjoyable but not very significant. We need a proper poll to tell us what’s happening in Scotland.
I see The Sun mildly raps Hague over the knuckles for his jolly, and also report that the US are poised to follow Gordon’s lead:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/money/article1791395.ece
After a long period where they got close to endorsing Cameron, they’re doing their bellwether thing.
232.”Am I the only person who disagrees with this universal theory that Alex Salmond is simply gagging for a Conservative government? A minority (or small majority) Labour government would suit him much better”
Red Meteor he is gagging for a Labour government now, but when he drew up his strategy for getting and winning a referendum, no.!
234 I don’t have a problem with Brown “Bullying” Iceland apart from the fact that as a bully he is a complete joke. My real worry with Iceland is that Brown did it to look tough, won’t be able to follow through(due to international law) and will end up spinning some crappy facesaving compromise(”sweetened” no doubt with British taxpayers money), that a prime minister with an iota of good judgement would have got something far better with a much quieter approach, but then of course it was never about the money it was always about the headline.
233.David, your article states that it was Ffion Hague who was attending the gathering, and William Hague was the spouse who accompanied her and paid his own expenses as well.
Maybe its just me, a friend went with her boyfriend to a works conference in Paris last week, she paid all her own flights and hotel bill. They got engaged, when he surprised her by proposing as well.
242 David, perhaps The Sun would be interested in the story on Newsnight [cutting the money to the troops]. Its the sort of thing they like to keep on top off.
Odd when Brown has just extended his own Cabinet and the size of its payroll to unprecedented levels.
Add that to his image consultants and massive PR budget, paid for by the taxpayer.
Nick P did you read the bit in the Sun article where it says Hague paid for his own trip? Define jolly? Not as though he is actually the Foreign Secretary (who is where by the way?) whilst the PM is taking on Iceland!
244. “Red Meteor he is gagging for a Labour government now, but when he drew up his strategy for getting and winning a referendum, no.!”
I have to say I completely disagree with that as well. The preferred date for a referendum seems to be 2010 - by which time, at most, the Tories will have been in power for a few months. If the plan was to exploit the unpopularity of the Tory government, it would have made more sense to wait for Cameron to get past his honeymoon stage and start taking unpopular decisions.
So, whatever the strategy for the referendum timing is based on, it’s certainly not that. If you need any proof, bear in mind that the 2010 date was settled upon when a fourth-term Labour government still seemed the much more likely outcome.
246 - We’re hardly hammering him for it but I agree that that he’s got every right to go, but after two big stories slating the event it would have looked remiss perhaps had we not mentioned such a high-profile politician being at the very place we slammed bankers for being.
Note, not my story Guv!
On Glenrothes the Independent has the following, I suspect this may be a closer battle now than it was thought a few weeks ago.
Embattled Prime Minister scents unlikely victory on his home turf
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/embattled-prime-minister-scents-unlikely-victory-on-his-home-turf-957887.html
249 - Well the news desk watch Newsnight
so it’s up to them!
243 Yesterday the Sun described this administration as the most incompetent of governments so I wouldn’t let your hopes be raised.
253 Fitaloon - you can still get 10/3 on a Glenrothes Labour win at Corals.
253. Reading that article, I realise I was in parts of the Glenrothes constituency on Wednesday. Can’t say I noticed any of the normal visible signs of an election going on, but I suppose it’s still early days.
249.Sally, I missed Newsnight, did Crick report that it was the present government who was going to cut Defence spending?
250: A jolly is an enjoyable outing based on work. See
http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/j.htm
When it comes to a ringing endorsement of today’s event and Gordon’s handling of it you can always rely on the Daily Mirror for support.
Has this been a good day for Gordon in their eyes?
When all the other nationals cover today’s financial turmoil, the Mirror leads with “Emmerdale Ben ‘raped me’”
Speaks volumes me thinks.
259 A wally is a Labour MP who links to pointless sites.
Chris, I didn’t catch it. I just caught the blast of outrage on here.
251.Red Meteor, I simple watched Salmond pontificating about it over the summer before the present crisis. Don’t get me wrong, I admire him as a politician and strategist, I have followed the SNP rise to power with interest. Have family members involved in the party at local activist level.
It was the good Newsnight bod (forget the name) who does defence that was talking about a new defence review and everything being cut more.
261 - A malicious boor is someone who pointlessly slates a public figure from a position of anonymity.
249 “David, perhaps The Sun would be interested in the story on Newsnight [cutting the money to the troops]. Its the sort of thing they like to keep on top off.”
Dont keep your hopes up. The Sun says it supports the Armed Forces but it support of the Labour Party and their pathological hatred of our Armed Forces suggests otherwise.
Remember Blair saying the Army can get whatever they need? Then the Army asked for Helicopters Blair said, well, you are not going to get that. What did the Sun do? Answer, plant their tongue further up Blair’s jacksie.
Mark Urban
250
‘who is where by the way?’
Asylum?
Telegraph article re banks’ attempts to raise money privately rather than from the Government:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/3175481/Financial-crisis-Lenders-in-final-effort-to-save-the-face-of-capitalism.html
265 Anonymity has nothing to do with the quality of a post. Your suggestion that it has suggests more about you than the poster.
256. I’ve thought about it but being a typical Aberdonian tight git I’m still reluctant to part with my hard-earned cash from winnings generated from the SNP in Glasgow East.
“Landlords of JJB Sports have sent bailiffs into several of its stores after the chain failed to pay rents on them.”
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/retailing/article4919002.ece
202
So only you rightists can do criticism. And how come Mike cannot be criticised? Mike is a great guy, running what has been a great site, but even he, yes even he, can be criticised.
As for the racists on here, I’ll kick their back-sides every chance I get.
And I rarely take myself seriously, at my age I’ve found it doesn’t pay dividends; but if the nastly little toe-rags who pollute pb.com with their racist rantings don’t like me calling them out then hard effing luck, for call them out I will.
Pretty Boy Dave may show the prettier side of Toryism, but those of us who read these pages know that there are plenty of Tories out there of the nasty variety, and long may they be kept from any levers of power or influence.
Malcolm
I’ve seen the way Dacre has covered a trip Hague paid for himself -if the Tories get in it might be worth sending Dacre into the wilderness for a while.
They have managed to do quite well so far despite his constant poison.
265 A tedious tabloid toady hack who spends his life promoting his newspaper on a poilitical blog really shouldn’t throw stones. Frankly mate if you and your propriator butted out of our country then we probably wouldn’t be in half as bad a shape as we are.
264.I hope not, my brother has just left for another deployment to Afghanistan. I know I give NickP a hard time on here sometimes, but hearing Brown go on about the war time spirit on C4 while his media and Whips operation try and spin this as his Falklands moment when its clearly a black October just makes me so angry.
Those guys out there, and in Iraq have never had enough decent equipment for the conditions, their families have to live in substandard accomadation and watch their family members going off on ever more frequent active duty.
The pay is crap, but then you look at Westminster and the salary, pension and expenses. And poor Gordon is getting a tough time in the press and in the blogsphere, would not have happened under Maggie, John or Tony’s watch would it?
MoD Loses 100,000 Personal Details
The hardware contains the names, addresses, passport numbers, dates of birth and driving licence details of serving personnel across the Army, Royal Navy and RAF, plus their next-of-kin details.
Is there any ones details the Government hasn’t lost?
The Sun is like the Newspaper equivalent of KitKat.
The KitKat was Britain’s favourite - until it was taken over by Nestle. From a distance, it looks the same, but they binned the foil and changed the recipe.
The Sun is no longer the ‘working man’s bible’ - it just pretends to be. The Sun, is the mouthpiece of the foreigner Murdoch. Murdoch does not have the interests of the British people at heart.
If the Sun really worried about our Armed Forces, it would have nailed Labour to f’king tree instead of blowing sunshine up their lying toady left *****s.
That is why Littlejohn left the Sun - because he was not permitted to hold Labour to account.
261, 265, 275 - lol, voreas, he’s on your side, remember?
277 The data is being harvested.
It is all part of Labour’s Year Zero plan.
278 - And was offered a bucketload of cash by The Mail!
269 HSBC had already signalled they were unlikely to take up the Government’s ‘offer’.
My knowledge of banking is limited but I would have thought that the market place would be heavily skewed in favour of any banks which were able to operate without Government involvement.
231 Mr Fresco
My father, as I have posted here before, told me to put my name to whatever I have written; I will continue to do as he advised.
The reason that I do not use my surname is that I want my wife to remain anonymous.
God Bless and give up the racism.
Malcolm
152 - yes my colleagues at work are not happy that the PM is finding life so amusing right now.
I post as a private individual, who is a long-term member of the Conservative Party. I’m not a Labour-toady.
I just think the constant baiting of Nick Palmer is unnecessary and I would hate for him to be chased off by the constant bile spewed his way. I wouldn’t vote for him if I lived in Broxtowe (sorry Nick) but I respect his right to post without abuse.
281 So the Sun is tight as well as being the Murdoch Mouthpiece and Lefty Traitors’ best buddy.
Simon StC “Is there any ones details the Government hasn’t lost? ”
This is becoming more than serious. I am beginning to wonder if the state has been infiltrated by those wanting to build their information.
Fantasy? No, the IRA tried it and in some cases were successful. The Soviet Union and the Stasi were very successful.
Who is it this time, and why is it becoming so frequent when every time it happens we are told that things have been tightened up?
And if you wonder what is the connection to the Social Security data loss, the prisoners and warders data loss, the NHS data loss, the MoD planning data loss and now the armed forces personnel data loss, then you are certainly not Len Deighton.
I agree with David about Nick -I wouldn’t vote for him either
276. They couldn’t have treated the forces more wrong if they were doing it deliberately.
279 For me Nick it is not all about sides and tribalism. It is about the future of our country, the incringement on civil liberties (by authoritarians such as yourself) and the endless deceit at the heart of government that is not offering us much.
277.As a mum of three, this government is determined to lose my whole families details it seems!
263. It seems to me there are a number of strategies Salmond may have been pursuing -
1) A strategy to win the 2007 election, which looked no further than that. Under this analysis, it could be supposed his preference would have been to leave the question of if and when a referendum would be held entirely open, but he was constrained by the realities of his party membership. The best-available compromise therefore was to commit to a referendum within the four-year term, but to defer it to the back-end of the term, hence 2010. Supporting evidence for this theory is that John Swinney basically followed the same path in 2003, when there was absolutely no prospect of a Tory government at Westminster to bolster the independence cause.
2) What he really wants is a multi-option referendum. Under this analysis, he thought winning a straight ‘Yes/No’ ballot was unlikely, but realised that if the option of substantially greater powers for Holyrood was also on the ballot, that would be likely to go through, with perhaps a substantial minority vote for independence. His words of encouragement about a multi-option vote (which on the face of it would not be in the nationalists’ interests) suggests that he believes this scenario would represent a significant step forward for Scottish self-government and the national movement.
3) As I said earlier, he could in fact have been banking on a fourth-term Labour government with a reduced majority, which would have been likely to become very unpopular very quickly. Think of how hated John Major’s government was, even six months after the 1992 election.
All three of these possibilities seem perfectly plausible to me, and unless someone has picked Alex Salmond’s brain in private I don’t know anyone can possibly tell which is closer to the truth. Sadly, propagandists like Alan Cochrane seem to have convinced much of the commentariat that the dastardly strategist Salmond dreams of nothing but a Cameron landslide.
So far every member of my immediate family has had their data lost. Some more than once.
283 I dont mind if you dont use your surname. See 270.
God Bless and who said I am white let alone racist?
You do so love the racism tag - see how it fell flat when Boris Johnson revealed he is turkish and married to an indian.
Nick Palmer Mandy is on your side, remember. It might become difficult, but it is essential you remember this rubric.
I suspect Richard Littlejohn’s move to the Daily Mail had more to do with the size of the salary he was offered. Not sure I would ever credit a journalist with the integrity to leave because of an editorial line…
277.As a next of kin it seems I have no privacy at all with this government.
281 So the Sun is tight as well as being the Murdoch Mouthpiece and Leftys’ best buddy.
296 Just for your info, Littlejohn said he left the Sun because he couldnt write what he wanted.
He could have been fibbing of course.
That said, the Mail isnt run by Murdoch.
281/295 Fools seldom differ!
286. On the point you make about inflitration - its not far fetched.
Fraud gangs do it. They use the internet to recruit new members.
You can offer yourself up if you have a ’skill’ the group can use and get a cut.
Frighteningly, some people are sought out because of the information they have access to at work.
A lot of the data loss is cleaners stealing it for identity theft.
279 “They couldn’t have treated the forces more wrong if they were doing it deliberately.”
Labour’s treatment of Britain’s Defences would appear illogical.
Until you realise that it is Deliberate. Then their actions become perfectly logical.
285 David, for heavens sake Nick is a big boy who is doing a job on here what do you think the post about Hague and the US following Gordon’s lead was all about.
Now I am neither a journalist nor a member of any political party, I won’t post in my real name as it is far too distinctive but I have tried to post under this name for several years.
302 If we had a Labour Government, the loss of such data would be treated as a threat to National Security.
No stone would be left unturned. The perpetrators would be arrested and imprisoned.
How many people have been arrested for the loss of data in ANY of these scandals?
If the answer is Zero, there lies your answer.
285.”I just think the constant baiting of Nick Palmer is unnecessary and I would hate for him to be chased off by the constant bile spewed his way. I wouldn’t vote for him if I lived in Broxtowe (sorry Nick) but I respect his right to post without abuse.”
But David, NickP can be as partisan as the rest of us, and we all take the flak on here at times when we dish it out. I will and have given Nick credit for his role in Westminster just recently during the Embryology bill.
But, if he is going to peddle partisan drivel about a war time atmosphere in government because it makes Brown and Darling look good when men and women are sweating out in real war zones, forget it. This is the government that only acknowledges the Military when there is a photo opportunity, but soon forgets when its convenient at a Labour Conference.
305 - But making a point like the one you just made is valid rather than just saying he’s a wally for answering a question.
Of course Nick’s partisan, so am I. I have long held that Gordon Brown would be (and is) the worst PM for many a long year, and I will continue to say it.
291.Red Meteor, you don’t have to pick Salmond’s brain, he is not that subtle.
286 etc. As the Shadow Chancellor, whilst commenting on the Poytner Report into the loss of Child Benefit data, said the loss of data by HMRC is symptomatic of nothing less than “incompetence and systemic failure at the heart of this government”
They were “a guide to how not to govern this country”,
Alistair Darling called for a “change of culture” across Whitehall so that “security is first and foremost in people’s minds” following a string of further data breaches, including officials losing lap top computers.
This was back in June. Nothing has obviously changed. Poytnner said in his report
As regrettable as the Child Benefit data loss incident was, one positive may yet flow from it. It may provide the burning platform for these transformations, recognising it as an imperative rather than a luxury.
Looks like imperatives have been ignored
Palin report out, not good.
Abused power for personal interest.
300 Sally and 301 MrJones there is always ‘commercial’ theft and that is what some of this may well be, but there is so much in such sensitive areas that I do hope there is some investigation by others than the local cops.
The government might not want to admit that some of these losses are ‘organised’ and not ‘commercial’ but to use that deathless phrase, surely we should be told.
Told so that we know what we are up against personally and professionally.
If this is not infiltration that needs disclosing, too, in a way that points out it could happen and we need to be watchful.
There is a genuine and serious problem with a government obsessed with spin, in that they are incapable of trusting the citizens with the information that there has been a failure and we all need to help.
Instead it is spun as a ‘junior’ making a mistake, or a simple mislaying of the discs - which of course are never found. This attitude in all national crises is particularly unfortunate as it rarely encourages us all to get involved and be supportive and helpful.
287 “what is the connection to the Social Security data loss, the prisoners and warders data loss, the NHS data loss, the MoD planning data loss and now the armed forces personnel data loss, then you are certainly not Len Deighton.”
It really is scary.
The data is clearly being harvested.
The regularity, the scale and lack of security and response suggests collusion. As Gordon Brown is Prime Minister and has not stopped it, he is either involved, incompetent or complacent.
306 but it was meant to be a joke because it rhymed with jolly, that is all. Granted it might have been a poor joke and I should have used a smily face but I think you took it the wrong way.
311 I don’t agree that it is collusion, just incompetence and proof that a database state is a really bad idea that even now Labour persist with.
305 Correction.
302 If we had a Conservative Government, the loss of such data would be treated as a threat to National Security.
No stone would be left unturned. The perpetrators would be arrested and imprisoned.
Under LABOUR, how many people have been arrested for the loss of data in ANY of these scandals? What has been done to stop the repetition?
If the answer is Zero, there lies your answer.
307. “Red Meteor, you don’t have to pick Salmond’s brain, he is not that subtle.”
If you mean we can take him at his word, that certainly doesn’t support Alan Cochrane’s propaganda that the strategy is based on waiting for an unpopular Tory government to be elected.
The Times does a fairly sympathetic leader on Brown.
Well the first half anyway.
The second half shows the postmortem is on its way, if not here already.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article4923030.ece
And it still smacks to me that he is enjoying himself when he shouldn’t be.
But the tone of the article justifies Mike’s thread. Even if some think the answer is no.
306.David, we Scottish Tories tend to be quite bolshy, and a coat of armour would not have gone amiss in 97′ either.
That said, you found people really did grudgingly respect you for sticking with the party in those dark days. :wink:.
McCain calls Obama a “decent” man and gets booed by the crowd. He is reaping what he sowed.
http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/10/mccain_denounces_pitchforkwave.html
311 You forgot the judges.
314 If there is no collusion, why is it happening so often?
Why is nothing being done?
Who are the people responsible?
If Ealing council can find out & sack those who authorised 12000GBP per month rent for a bunch of immigrants, the Government can find out who is responsible for the loss of data.
It is just a question of will.
It appears it is the will of Labour that sensitive data continues to be harvested and those last handling it remain anonymous.
Re 49, Ted “I don’t want him to look nervous, tired, fraught or over-stressed, confidence, yes that’s great, but this is someone on a high - claiming to have bought down oil prices for f***s sake.”
Yes, how dare he! I brought down oil prices, by saying it would happen on my blog months ago!
You can check here:
http://aconservatives.blogspot.com/2008/05/oil-price-crash-imminent.html
That was in May!
315.Red Meteor, I have to admit that I am really not that impressed with the Scottish political media. They are too close to the politicians, and its definitely made them far too tame when it comes to scrutinising our ruling class in Holyrood. Note, I make the point about the ruling lot rather than the whole circus.
Its hilarious to watch them fawning over the SNP when not long ago they did the same with previous coalition. There is a smug complacency which just ouzes form every pore whether it be Alan Cochrane or Iain Martin and Fraser Nelson down here. But, combine that with the lot residing in Scotland, and we always get administration toadying or Scotland bashing. If the journalists on either side produce the same amount of scorn, then they are doing something very wrong.
320 I just think it is too easy, with USB sticks, 10p cdrs and ubiquitous internet access, slackness in password security and no encryption it is bound to happen. I would argue that the problem is having the data in the first place.
311 “If this is not infiltration that needs disclosing, too, in a way that points out it could happen and we need to be watchful.”
Labour has packed government positions with foreigners including illegal immigrants and extremists.
Would you be surprised if that included a few infiltrators were among them?
Have you been to the passport office recently? Have you seen the people performing checks at the airport?
312 - In that case, mea culpa for not spotting it. I apologise for jumping at you. Let’s draw a line under it!
Sarah Palin to be withdrawn as Republican VP nominee/candidate before 2008 presidential election
Intrade moving now, +5.5
325 certainly
I apologise if I was a bit strong in response.
326 - I’m starting to seriously fear for my 50 squid I have with PfP that McCain wins 26 states
I had him losing narrowly. Looks like he’s gonna lose BIG.
326.Eh, link?
324 Al Fresco - “Have you been to the passport office recently? Have you seen the people performing checks at the airport?”
Have I SEEN them? Why? Are they branded ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT? Or have you been round the airports checking the passports of all the staff? Or maybe they’re black!
It isn’t rascist to talk about immigration problems. But it is when you imply you can tell an illegal immigrant at first glance.
329
It’s a betting market deary, this is a betting site.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6004368&page=1
331 Oh you people love to use the racist word dont you.
I am black dumb@ss. Black, British and Proud of Both.
Deal with it.
Jon Craig actually reported on Sky news that Gordon was responsible for oil prices coming down and that he had sorted out a petrol price drop aswell.
I know its Friday and he wants to get off home - but what a prat.
Obviously he has not learnt the lessons of the Brown honeymoon embarrassment.
I should be in bed. Night all.
333 So black people are immune from a charge of racism? LMAO
SallyC are you sure. he is one of the more careful reporters. The Scottish one is soooo Labour and others, well least said soonest mended, but Craig I think highly of.
if he did say it his diet must be making him light headed.
Saint McBean
331.I know that chum, but the way you worded it made it look like the markets moved on the back of news rather than the markets moving first on a possibility.
339
It moved after the report came out.
293.Thanks, Which again, i repeat this poster advocates racial discrimination in employment and education.
I am sure he would have felt right at home in the sixties, they had a similar thing then, to what he wants now.
“no blacks, no dogs, no irish”
334.Sally, Jon Craig and Glen Oglaza are not that Conservatively minded at the best of times.
Night all. The Tattie holidays are upon us.
339 - The news is http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7662820.stm
Night all, didn’t realise the time!
337.Witan, I have noticed a change in Jon Craig in recent times, but he is more closely linked to Labour which is reflected quite clearly by the ability to boast about sources. Did you follow his TUC and Labour party Conference blog entries?
340.Fine, but that is big news and I wondered if you had a link to anything that might be useful?
343.Thanks David, now I see why this is a hot potato.
PRESIDENT.DEM2008 1 80.2 82.3 28 82.2 136.5k +4.7
Re 333, Alfresco, “331 Oh you people love to use the racist word dont you.
I am black dumb@ss. Black, British and Proud of Both.
Deal with it.”
Re your comments about Petty France (love the name) I have heard that all the staff are of various non white origins, but crucially not white, but also as you indicate many may not have been born here.
Whilst it would be wrong to insist that all were either white or born here, it is odd that none are white, and many appear not to have been born here. It makes you wonder about the recruitment policy, and yes I have read stories about immigration officers have been former illegal immigrants.
337 You can call me racist if you like Dolly. I dont care.
Personally I dont care.
For too long, you used that to cover up your crimes. You pushed too far. It has no effect anymore.
Like those who used to call me nigger. Eventually, they are just words - irrelevent and worthless - just like you Dolly.
You call people racist too often. Perhaps with the power of your words you turned people into racists. Even your own Labour supporters now vote BNP in droves.
We heard you drone on for so long, your words are meaningless. All there is is your incompetence, your arrogance and your treason.
All there is, is you, Labour… and you need to be removed.
That is why we will vote, “Anyone but Labour” so we can have our country back.
Goodnight Dolly.
337. Last post. Yes I am sure. He listed Gordon’s recent successes.
He was successful in getting the interest rate cut globally; apparently this was Gordon’s doing.
He then went on to oil prices and said he had had some success there aswell etc etc.
And then went on to the petrol prices saying again that Gordon had called for them and he had had some success there too as Tesco and whoever were reducing their prices tomorrow.
Frankly it was incredible.
I blogged a complaint.
342 ““no blacks, no dogs, no irish”
Under Labour, it is “no whites, no men, no English”
318: Well done McCain - whatever happens, he’s a man to respect.
Apologies if someone posted this before but I just got sent it and it amused me.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/3/43222/8057/718/618653
Re 352, Nick, yes, well done McCain. Politicians are just men and women, and for the most part I think are decent people, even when they are wrong. It is wrong to leave that in doubt.
BTW, I suspect that you and your party are going to have a very hard time coming up to the next election.
352 - A more cynical man than me would suggest that he has lost the election and is now trying to save his own reputation as a fair dealer.
But on balance, I agree that McCain is a decent chap.
355: Yes, saw him disagreeing with evangelical supporters at a town hall meeting when I was over there in August - they wanted him to promise that all Christians could have their own schools, he said he favoured school choice, but not just for Christians. They didn’t like it a bit and started heckling, but he shrugged it off. He may be crotchety and a bit over the hill, but he’s got integrity.
Palin, now…hmm.
Re 356, Nick Palmer MP (Mustn’t forget that, at least whilst it current
)”He may be crotchety and a bit over the hill, but he’s got integrity.”
He has got integrity, but I disagree he is over the hill or that he has lost the election. He is after all someone who has even managed to come back from a cremation!
327. Palin has not been withdrawn though has she?
(Will be interested to see if this post remains. Last one I made ‘disappeared’.)
New thread - Is this the key moment of the campaign?
201. Your last point may be correct , but early part is way out , Labour are going to get a real kicking in Scotland. Unless the SNP do something really stupid they will make large gains.
256. Even at that price it would be money down the drain.
316. Cochrane is a dumpling , nothing he writes has any relevance.
308. You don’t like Salmond but he is doing very well , is rarely wrong and is streets ahead of any other politician in Scotland. The main point however is he puts forward what is in Scotlans best interests, until Labour can do the same they will continue to lose big time.