Tory Shadow Immigration minister arrested
November 27th, 2008
Unconfirmed rumours that Damien Green has been arrested
James Forsyth at the Spectator earlier broke a story that rumours were swirling around the Westminster Village that a big story was about to break about a member of David Cameron’s team. ConservativeHome indicates that it is that Damien Green MP, the Shadown Immigration Minister, has been arrested.
Sky News is reporting that the Met has confirmed a man in his fifties has been arrested, but not charged, for conspiracy to commit misconduct in a public office - reportedly linked to leaks from the Home Office. Other reports are indicating offenses relating to the Official Secrets Act, though this has been denied. They are showing the story with images of Mr Green.
Nothing is being confirmed at present, though the Evening Stndard is running with this, but David Cameron has scheduled a Press Conference at 8am tomorrow. How might this affect the spread markets?
More when we have it. Stay tuned to PB.com
Morus
UPDATE: Sky News is now reporting that the Police searched both Green’s Parliamentary and Constituency offices, and has been taken to a Central London Police Station. The Conservative Party seems to be standing by Mr Green, arguing that his actions were in the course of his duties as a Shadow Immigration Minister.
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first!
Tory sleaze now there’s a shock.
First!
This is a very strange series of events.
It is clear from the CCHQ statement that the arrest is in connection to Immigration information allegedly leaked last year.
All governments have leaks. All oppositions make use of the leaks.
I don’t see this as a hugely significant story - particularly with the terrorist atrocities fresh in our minds.
Besides what is wrong with us finding out the truth that the government would rather conceal?
BBC reporting Conservatives have confirmed.
Labour political state arrests - now there is a shock!
Labour trying trying to hide their incompetence.
Tory sword of truth being persecuted by New Labour+ met Police
Seems a bit of fluff to distract attention from an incompetent govt
Guido:
Arrested for Unusually aggressive move, David Davis used to have leak after leak arriving on his desk when he was Shadow Home Secretary.
Sky reporting it was for “conspiracy to cause misconduct in public office”.
You don’t think it might be a move to scare off the famed Treasury mole?
2 What world do you live in?
Reposted from last thread, this ‘leak’ has all the things that the media are referring to.
“Anything to do with this?
“LEAKED police figures show FORTY PER CENT of drink drivers in some parts of Britain are now foreigners.
And the vast majority come from either Poland or Lithuania — confirming warnings that many Eastern Europeans ignore our breathalyser laws.
The statistics will fuel fears that drunken foreign motorists are a growing menace.
Tory immigration spokesman Damian Green, who obtained the leaked document, said: “This is more evidence of the need for a limit on immigration. ”
If so I would think the tories are going to make something big of it, not try to hide it.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1889044.ece
by ukpaul November 27th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Gabble: “If he’s broken the law it will not be a one day wonder.”
If it’s about illegal behaviour by immigrants then it wont help Labour.
What doesn’t the government want the voters to know?
If this is the story about foreign drink drivers, Labour may well have shot themselves in the foot big time. The Tories have been attacking Labour’s laxity on immigration, to arrest one of them for ‘trying to get at the truth’ - which some papers would definitely say - would be a huge gaffe.
I would not be surprised if this turns the spotlight on the whole government leak business and labour will not want not be pleased with any attention in this area
The following facts have just been supplied to journalists at Westminster by Conservative Party spokesmen:
Damian Green, the Conservative immigration spokesman was arrested earlier today.
He was detained on suspicion of aiding or procuring misconduct in public office. The arrest is connected to the disclosure of several Home Office documents over the last year.
Police officers searched Mr Green’s home in Kent and his Commons office.
At the time of posting, he remains under arrest at a central London police station. He has not been charged with any crime.
Mr Green denies any wrongdoing and and has not been charged with any crime.
253
So, it was Dr. Watson, then, ukpaul.
Where is Nick Palmer to defend his vile, duplicitous and jackbooted government
Labour now turning to political arrests?
The great purge has started!
Gordon ‘Brown’ Mugabe:
1/ Wants to Ban opposition candidates from campaigning in marginal seats.
2/ Gets opposition politicians arrested.
3/ Leaks information to undermine the economy and manufacture crisis to make people relient on state.
I so, so hope this is because information which embarresed the government came to light. If Green has paid for anything, done anything which would damage national security or anything of that nature, then of course he must face penalties. But if this just the government trying to catch people who make them look crap then it just proves we are in a banana republic right now.
Big Deal, When did/does Ian Blair go. Silly sour grapes from a very fishy policeman and his Labour friends?
All announced just in time for the 10pm news and newsnight to get a story together. Just have to wait and see what they say.
This will turn out very badly indeed for Labour.
Ian Blair’s final revenge???
Time to head for the ports and seek asylum - I shall look for mine in the ex-fascist utopia of southern spain:)))))
21 - Blair’s last day today!
Just seen Jon Craig’s report on Skynews.
Fitaloon summed it up neatly, he has been arrested for doing his job as the Shadow Immigration Minister, and its embarrassed the government!
Jawhowl. Mein obergrupenfuhrer…………
Every Labour minister will now be questioned in interviews: “Have you ever received a leaked document? Have you ever leaked a document? Have you ever benefitted politically from a leaked document?”
How many ministers could truthfully answer “No” to all three questions?
I always thought the term ZanuLab was over the top, and have never used it, but it came a small step closer to reality today.
I wonder why Call Me Dave is waiting until 8am tomorrow morning? Surely he must know now if Green has been up to no good or not.
18. Yes, we will all be arreasted tommorrow no doubt! Who ever has the server must be bricking themselves!
Political arrests eh? Who would have thought it would come to this so soon.
Meanwhile Darling has said something to undermine the banks share prices again by saying he will force them to implement certain interest rates. Looks like they will nationalise the lot!
Brown is an evil Monster! A mugabest type figure. This is not Brown’s falklands but his Zimbabwe.
2. How is it sleazy to report leaked information? The press do it all the time. Rather depends what he did.
29. None of them?
It all depends if Green paid for the information or persuaded someone to break the official secrets act.
30. you mean ZaNuLab PF
Well now it seems the government really do deserve the ‘ZaNuLabour’ tag. This looks like a desperately clumsy attempt to distract attention from the PBR. Could be an extraordinary blunder.
If he’s contradicted Gordon, it’ll be lese majeste.
To the Tower!
“THE economic downturn will result in more crime and illegal immigration, and a rise in extremism, according to a leaked Government document.
The Home Office is due to deliver the stark assessment to Gordon Brown amid fears that Britain is heading for recession.
The missive sets out the potential for an increase in violent offences due to the credit crunch and soaring food prices, and suggests that terrorism could be boosted.
It also indicates there will be “increased public hostility to migrants” as competition for jobs stiffens and people question the financial assistance they receive.
The letter states: “There is a risk of a downturn increasing the appeal of far-Right extremism and racism, which presents a threat as there is evidence that grievances based on experiencing racism are one of the factors that can lead to people becoming terrorists.” ”
Sept 1st 2008 - Damian Green is quoted later in the article. Could be linked?
http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews+articleid_2566478.html
22.”All announced just in time for the 10pm news and newsnight to get a story together. Just have to wait and see what they say”
I noticed the *timing* of the details breaking for the same reason!
Now let me get this right.
Damian Green is arrested, seemingly quite properly, for breaching the official secrets act and leaking material about immigration.
On the other hand it’s OK for all of us to know exactly what’s going to be announced in the PBR up to a week before the Chancellor announces it in Parliament.
It’s a weird world we live in.
Sounds like the Tories will come out fighting on this one - the Home office had chosen to conceal information of public interest apparently - are we surprised - - the whole business of government leaking to journalists , Peston etc will come under a lot of scrutiny - labour need to be v careful what they say on this one
Blimey!
Whoever thought having a Labour Government would be so much fun…? >8D
Telegraph reporting he was arrested by nine counter-terrorism officers. I’m sorry, what?!
35. I remember when information about the Freedom of Information bill was leaked, Jack Straw (i think) announced in Parliament a top to bottom inquiry to find the leak.
The total irony seemed to have been missing.
What a stupid dumb act by the government.
If indeed it is because of the Sun story then Green will be a hero. They simply don’t get it.
29. Especially Gordon Brown when he was shadow C of E - I am shore i have seen him citing leaked documents at a time in the past pre 1997!
Where is Nick Palmer to defend his vile, duplicitous and jackbooted government
If he has done anything to compromise British security or to accidentally aid terrorists I imagine the backlash against the Tories will be immense.
As numerous other leaks have not been prosecuted by the police, I imagine this is more than the standard leak.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/3532133/Tory-minister-Damian-Green-arrested-under-the-Official-Secrets-Acts.html
WHO LEAKED THE BNP LIST? Griffin said Labour, we all said yeah sure. And now? What do we think?
From Green’s website -
“Home Office figures and numbers are repeatedly wide of the mark. Furthermore, Ministers have consistently been less than frank with the true picture having to be painfully extracted and rarely volunteered.
The Government’s whole approach to immigration was revealed in recently leaked Home Office documents. Private polling told Ministers that their handling of our immigration system was a shambles and that net satisfaction was running at -54. The Government’s response was that in order to deal with these “negative perceptions” regional press officers have been hired around the country. Can I gently suggest that it would have mean a more constructive response to hire some new immigration officers rather than press officers. ”
http://www.damiangreen.org/record.jsp?type=speech&ID=24
Green’s arrest is obviously good news for the Tories.
Well, everything is.
Malcolm
Abuse of public office is a serious offence - the CPS charging guidelines (see link below) point out it carries anything up to life imprisonment so shouldn’t be used lightly.
“A charge of misconduct in public office should be reserved for cases of serious misconduct or deliberate failure to perform a duty which is likely to injure the public interest.”
So public interest is involved.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/misconduct_in_public_office/
44. Ah! It’s not immigration then, he’s mis-used his rubbish-bin.
Most amusing to see all the Conservative trolls rushing to defend alleged law breaking by a senior Conservative shadow minister . I am sure they all helped Jonathan Aitken in his wielding of the sword of truth until it was proved to be the opposite .
44. There is absolutely no way on this earth that any chief constable would have carried out such an action, without the explicit permission/request of the Home Secretary.
44: “Telegraph reporting he was arrested by nine counter-terrorism officers. I’m sorry, what?!”
Is Damien Green Icelandic?
Tory sources angrily pointed out that the police move came after Parliament rose for a five-day holiday.
Had the Commons been sitting, they said, MPs could have immediately raised the matter with the Speaker.
The police search of Mr Green’s office had to be authorised by the Serjeant at Arms, who answers to the Speaker.
9 anti-terrorist cops ? Do you remember when we were all asked to cry because a labour aid was “knocked up” before 8am during cash for honours.
7 “Tory sword of truth being persecuted by New Labour+ met Police”
Excellent choice of words, Tory sword of truth! A timely reminder of Jonathan Aitken, thank you!
On a previous thread I read that during the PBR debate Osborne said “we know you’ve been looking at it”. or words to that effect.
Was this a reference to VAT rises and if so, can someone tell me how he could possibly have known?
I’d really advise restraint in comments on this. We don’t know a fraction of the facts, and it’s not fair to Damien Green or anyone else to speculate. We don’t know what’s been alleged, whether he’ll be charged, or what his defence would be if so - let’s wait and see.
46 It is just laughable that they think they can call in the police for leaks when this government leaks daily as part of their spin. Worse it is chilling that they feel they can use the apparatus of government to suppress opposition.
56. Would you say that if it was a Lib Dem MP Mark?
The government are no more responsible for the police arresting Green than they were for the police arresting a number of their own members over the ‘cash for honours’ investigation.
And the biggie (well, for any civil libertarian), leaks over ID cards.
“Plans for a large scale rollout of ID cards to British nationals appear to have been delayed for two years - beyond the next general election.
The government had planned to start issuing “significant volumes” of ID cards alongside passports from 2010.
But leaked Home Office documents suggest that it has now been put back to 2012. The Conservatives say the plan is “in the intensive care ward”. ”
Quite a lot of reports with Green quoted and leaked ID card details mentioned.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7203740.stm
56. How on earth you can call yourself a Liberal is beyond me!
63. Nick, you mean you don’t want your leaders to get a hammering?
Next stop Siberia huh? Brown really is a Stalinist psycho.
56.
Maybe it is because we Conservatives believe in Innocent until Proven Guilty?
Just because a party has ‘liberal’ in the word, doesnt make it liberal.
56 But then you would never regard the rule of law as being applicable to Conservatives.
I would be very surprised if there isn’t more to it than is being assumed here. For a shadow government minister to be arrested without very good grounds and with the approval of the Home Secretary would backfire spectacularly on the government.
So there’s probably more to it. If not….
66.
The government are no more responsible for the police arresting Green than they were for the police arresting a number of their own members over the ‘cash for honours’ investigation.
Gabble, except that in this case the government were doubtlessly the ones who brought the Police in. They would have been the ones to find out about it. Whereas with the cash for honours scandal they had the complaint brought against them.
I think it’s a bit hysterical to say the government had Green arrested. I hate Labour but I don’t live in the fantasy world of some. They would do anything to avoid his arrest if it is about leaking tides of immigrants committing crime or whatever.
43 Nick Palmer said the Labour Govt would have fun, but that was over the 45p tax issue. The fun they are about to have wont seem so funny in the cold light of day…
66
Me eye Gabble. Who told the police… Do you really believe the boys in blue are that on the money…
66. Terrorist related and inciting racial hatred charges require the permission of the Attorney General, and thus are *always* political.
What confidential papers did the police remove from Green’s parliamentary office? Who will see what was removed?
MANDY strikes again?
Another recent Home Office ‘leak’.
“Leaked Home Office documents reveal teenagers may need an ID card to open a bank account or take out a student loan from 2010 - making them among the first people to have the controversial biometric cards in the UK.
The National Union of Students (NUS) described the revelation in the leaked National Identity Scheme Delivery Strategy document as “morally reprehensible” and said it would bog students down in red tape.”
“Shadow immigration minister, Damian Green, said: “The government are clearly trying to introduce the cards by stealth. This is straightforward blackmail and a desperate attempt to bolster a failing policy.”"
http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/0,3800010403,39169808,00.htm
68 It is beyond you because like many Conservatives you seem to believe that you are exempt from the laws of this country .
73 true, however David Cameron is jumping straight in to defend Damian Green and stand by him and Sky report a lot of anger from the Tories - read into that what you will, but were this a Tory sinker then I very much doubt DC would wade in.
66. Gabble. At this stage I would agree with you. But would this have gone to the Home Secretary for her approval as has been suggested here? We will know a lot more soon enough.
73.
stjohn, it’s quite possible he technically broke the law. But the law isn’t always right - it used to be illegal to make baskets on a Sunday in some London parks. He could be prosecuted and convicted, but if the public thinks he was doing the right thing in exposing government lies/attempts to hide information then they’ll see him as a hero, like Mike S said.
Very robust quotes from Tories on the Beeb website,
Spokesman for the Conservative Party said: “As shadow immigration minister, Mr Green has, on a number of occasions, legitimately revealed information which the Home Office chose not to make public.
“Disclosure of this information was manifestly in the public interest.
“Mr Green denies any wrongdoing and stands by his actions.”
This could be a hugely important incident in the run up the next GE. I can’t see how it won’t massively effect one or other of the main parties.
Either a Tory has been getting info (maybe paying for it) and then leaking it as part of a story. Then, the Tories have come out and said absolutely not, definitely, nothing done wrong, and it would be that they told a massive lie. Voters are going to ask, can you trust them to govern?
Or…Green hasn’t done anything wrong, and Labour are going to look like they have sent in the State Police to rough up the opposition.
If it is the later, I think it will be all out war and dirty tricks until the election. It always seems to me t PMQ’s that it wouldn’t take too much for Brown & Cameron to go toe to toe round the bike sheds (unlike another cup of tea Tony, love to Dave….).
63 no Nick P we do not know. Except that your rotten Govt has got previous on this. Spin, spin and more spin. Ever heard of Mandelson and Campbell? Or Whelan and the Blair vs Brown spin wars?
What about the spinners dodgy dossier that brought this country into an unnecessary war and hundreds of soldiers maimed and thousands of dead on all sides?
Meanwhile another one of your parties Dolly trolls Maj Bill Martin pops up with spin about Osborne and Treasury leaks.
Whatever happened to open Government? Whatever happened to principles? Just when did Labour sell out? Was it the day after the 97 election?
Daily Telegraph “Mr Cameron has pledged his full support for the shadow immigration minister. In a statement he said: “Disclosure of this information was manifestly in the public interest. Mr Green denies any wrongdoing and stands by his action.”
So if its about the Home Office being less than open about embarrassing facts which way will the press narrative go - its a good test as to whether “Gordon, Global Leader” narrative has changed - does the Sun run with this as Tory Scandal or Labour Trying to Cover Up?
If it wasn’t the government, he could have been invited for an interview under caution a la Mr Blair, who did take a huge donation from Ecclestone about the same time legislation was being framed
73 - If he asked for certain details I’d consider it as doing his job; we can’t have a state where important information is kept from the opposition or, more importantly, the people.
If he was paying someone then that’s a different matter.
I remember Robin Cooke holding a press conference, and proudly showing leaked documents in support of his argument. Useful if anyone could lay his hands on the film.
84 The Official secrets act is a graveyard of failed prosecutions. None have ever done the Govt of the day any good at all.
would any of us put it past labour to use anti-terrorism laws to suppress opposition. I just remeber David Kelly and the dodgy dossier, this would be nothing in comparison.
81. Holding the government to account?
Mark you are silly to have such a benign trust in any government - I strongly suggest you join the Labour party as you would fit in well.
81: so Mark “so-called Liberal” Senior has already decided Green is guilty of something he hasn’t even been charged with yet?: “like many Conservatives you seem to believe that you are exempt from the laws of this country”
Bet he couldn’t wait to get on here and start posting his anti-Tory nonsense. What a goon…
Fantastic. What dispicablable sub gutter desperation.
Dr David Kelly can allegedly commit suicide and that’s not worth investigating, yet a word out of place against Brown’s Socialist Nazis and it’s straight off to the chokey with you..
I do declare that Niemoeller time has arrived. What next, marshall rule ?
Labour scum.
63. I’ve always had respect for Labour opponents; always. I’m waiting to see the facts of this case. If this is as political as it looks…
well, wait and see the facts first.
What possible advantage would the government gain from having members of the opposition gratuitously arrested?
Are you all seriously suggesting that, as of tonight, democracy has been cancelled? Why then arrest just Damian Green? Why not the whole opposition? Why don’t you grow up, btw?
62. “we know you’ve been looking at it” - sounds like rhetoric to me. After all I could have told you that every variation of tax cut and rise would have been looked at and certain combinations were likely to have been closely looked at.
Why did the Govt pick immigration, when the vast majority of the British people are very concerned about the level of immigration….
81 Mark, there is a defence of public interest, which negates any alleged law breaking.
This could be very damaging to Labour or to the Tories - depends on perception. Also reporters (recipients of many leaks) tend not to like Governments prosecuting on them.
46. Spot on Mike - and Green’s response should be to do what David Davis did. Let’s have a byelection on the issues at stake and see if the pathetic cowards that make up this government have the stomach to contest it.
By the end of Mrs T’s premiership leak inquiries were averaging thirty five a year, almost twice the rate when she entered Downing Street.
Gabble, democracy was cancelled when we were denied a vote on the Lisbon treaty
90. Not really, what are they going to do exhume him and put him in cuffs?!
85 Oracle “it wouldn’t take too much for Brown & Cameron to go toe to toe round the bike sheds”
Yes it would, it would take Gordon Brown acquiring a modicum of courage
61. Just what I was thinking when I saw those words. The particularly vile Jonathan Aitken’s face rushed back into view, just to remind me of what sleaze is really like. You can’t beat the Tories for it, and their fantastic capacity to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
97: Gabble: “What possible advantage would the government gain from having members of the opposition gratuitously arrested?”
You’ll see when Dave gets in and sends the boys round to hoik you in…
re 21 Blair goes on Sunday getting out just in time before the de Menezes verdict. It’ll be like the Birmingham Six all over again with the completely ineffectual PCC saying that they can’t take action because the officers involved have retired - on full pension no doubt.
We still don’t know anything, but is it now Tory policy that when we take power all civil servants can just leak whatever they want without censure?
Was today not the last day in office fro that other Blair?
97 Gabble - it’s only the start, gradually more and more Conservatives arrested and charged until the playing field is set just right for the Dear Leader to hold his election
No sign of the ICM poll then? Ah well!
If the Sun goes for Brown on this, it could be very, very bad for him. I also doubt Dacre will be pleased given his recent speech after the Moseley cr*p.
What possible advantage would the government gain from having members of the opposition gratuitously arrested?
To try to create a scandal to under mine its opponents? Take the heat off them? Why does anyone ever push for political opponents to be arrested?
Not to say this is an end to/suspension of democracy, but someone claimed that counter-terrorism officers can only be deployed with the Home Secretary’s permission. So if they did attend why were they used, why were so many (9) used and why did the HS permit it?
94 I haven’t decided anything as to his guilt or otherwise , that will emerge in due course , but all the Conservative trollsters on here immediately posted that he was either a) innocent or b) guilty but justified and in anycase c) it is the governments fault .
I love this, keep it up guys.
Its wonderful to watch the parties of political wretches fighting dirty; our political life has hit a new low, yet again.
I fell in love with the PDR of Laos, and now I know why.
Malcolm
It’s hard to foresee the circumstance in which this is not going to hurt the government.
re 58 Bob he’s a Tory. He against Gordon, ergo he’s a terrorist in new Labour eyes - QED.
109 Leaks are allowed when they benefit Labour but not when they benefit the tories is apparently the new rule.
109.
is it now Tory policy that when we take power all civil servants can just leak whatever they want without censure?
will, since when was Green a civil servant? The whistleblower hasn’t been arrested, the complaint is that the MP “doing his job” has been.
117. Maybe they have cctv of Damian Green in Bombay yesterday….
Don’t Tory MPs usually get arrested for beating up wives and children?
117: we’re definitely back in Stalin/Bean territory now.
Bring it on…
I’ve no idea of the details of what Green has done but hearing of an opposition MP being arrested in respect of leaked documents causes me a lot of concerns. And it should cause everyone to feel the same frankly.
There had better be some stunningly good evidence of major wrongdoing by Green to back this up.
122 hmm Mark Oaten?
115 I’m more interested in how it plays out politically and that depends on the media management.
If (big if) it comes down to 9 policeman arresting and interrogating an MP basically for embarrassing the Home Secretary?
NuLab are “the political wing of the British people” so ipso facto all their leaking is in the public interest.
Fraser Nelson:
The Tories I have spoken to think the arrest incredibly heavy-handed, especially as there is no suggestion that he did not act in the public interest.
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
From what sky say this is very bad for Labour indeed.
Green has been the victim of a political arrest.
120 - Raj - as I said upthread it will come down to if Green paid for the information or persuaded someone to break the official secrets act.
Otherwise using a leak is not a problem.
no doubt there are a few at the BBC feeling nervous tonight
122 - except that he did not get arrested, and did not beat anybody up. Or break the law.
125. Oaten was consensual adults only iirc, a world of difference.
New Labour. New Danger.. Correction. Old Labour. new danger
Sky saying that, of the leaks the one above about potential civil unrest is one of the ones they’ve picked on.
http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2008/11/27/tory-shadow-immigration-minister-arrested/#comment-859901
130 - depends who’s able to get their media operation whirring first.
As said previously, the Tories seem very bullish - for their own sakes, Green better not be hiding anything.
135 We’ll settle on “Labour: Danger”
133. Jeremy Thorpe anyone??
129.
Soon it will just be Gabble, Darmstazi and Nick ‘communist’ Palmer left
129 EdP
Now would that be Brownstuff’s Nazis, or Thatcher’s Nazis? I guess it depends whether you ask a Tory Shadow Minister or a coal miner.
Malcolm
Sky cited 4 different documents that embarrased Labour - surely the commons will have something to say about this?
oh and Brown did use a leaked document about the Tories I think it was something to do with a report by the current Stratford upon Avon MP IIRC.
136.
we cant let people know whats in for them when it all goes tits up, can we?
O/T but I wonder whether HM managed to stifled some hollow laughter when she realised than Gordon had her say this in yesterday’s Queen’s speech
“My Government has pursued policies to ensure economic stability, to respond to the rising aspirations of the people of the United Kingdom”,/i>
Cameron’s speech could be dynamite. The Telegraph’s piece says he has used the term ’stalinist’ privately. How will he play this?
136. ukpaul
To be precise, that is what the tories are claiming. I’ve no reason to doubt them.
129 - Yes, this is eerily like the beginning of the Final Solution isn’t it…?
FFS, grow up, everyone.
The police decided to arrest him because there was reasonable suspicion a crime had been committed.
I don’t know if a crime was committed or not, I don’t know if he’s done anything wrong or not, and I don’t know if any potential criminal act would be morally justified or not.
What I do know is that this is not Stalinism, Naziism, or remotely similar to the actions of Robert Mugabe. Nor, for the record, is it reminiscent of Chairman Mao or Pol Pot.
Can we please get some f***ing perspective?
From PA
It is understood the allegations centre on four stories which have caused considerable embarrassment to the Government.
They are:
:: The revelation in November 2007 that Home Secretary Jacqui Smith was aware the Security Industry Authority had granted licences to 5,000 illegal workers but did not think the Home Office’s official explanation was “good enough” for the press office or ministers to use;
:: The fact that an illegal immigrant had been employed as a cleaner in the House of Commons, which emerged in February this year;
:: A whips’ list of potential Labour rebels who might vote against the Government over plans to increase the pre-charge terror detention limit to 42 days in a crucial Commons vote;
:: A letter from Ms Smith to Prime Minister Gordon Brown warning that the recession could lead to a rise in violent crime and burglaries.”
142. The Commons are on a 5 day holiday. Harman decided they didn’t need to sit much this year.
133 Ah now the Liberals are liberal again, welcome back.
141. i wasnt aware that Damian Green had been firebombing the houses of scab workers, or dropping concrete pillars on top of scab drivers.
146 - The Press Association report, see above.
138
Whatever, ;)it sounds truly a truly desperate throw of the die
148 - And that’s considered a crime??!? Or at least suitable for counter-terrorism officers to search Green’s home?!
152. I may be wrong but I wouldn’t have thought the police would have released that detail?
Two secrets stories - Green’s arrest and the Cabinet Minutes in run up to Iraq War. Which will have more staying power in the Guardian/ BBC?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/nov/27/iraq-gordonbrown
I thought the anti-terrorist squad were hopelessly over stretched, threatening a terrorist disaster of massive proportions at any moment. Even if DG is guilty, it hardly amounts to a good use of resources, does it ?
155 - It’s unattributed, I presume it comes from journalistic digging.
Wow that is a killer passage in the Telegraph
David Cameron, the Conservative leader, is said to be “extremely angry” about the arrest and has privately accused the Government of “Stalinesque” behaviour.
Sounds like call me Dave is on the war path. If I was Brown I would get on the blower to the likes of Balls and Maculty, as he might need to backup
Wonder if Dave will take Boris along, never forget that rubgy tackle in the charity football match a few years ago 
139 - nice one! I always like Mr Thorpe’s mention. How the hell he ever… and it was not a “policy” problem either.
My sympathies, I think, lie with Mr Green - one of my favourite Tory MP.
Supposing he gets cleared - might he fight a by-election in Ashford? And what would Nick Clegg say?
147 Calm down yourself, Morus. If Green was arrested for publicising four leaked documents then you don’t think this is truly serious, given the amount of leaking the government does on a pretty much daily basis.
148 evidently it is time to promote Damian Green.
141 Does it matter? We’ve reached the point in this country where it appears that a political representative is arrested for releasing information into the public domain that is in the interest of those that they represent and it is considered a crime. Get real. This is disgraceful.
The hon. Lady made great play of the brochure and praised the hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) for his great role as an investigative journalist from the Daily Record in uncovering great leaks.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1994/may/06/rosyth-naval-base#S6CV0242P0-04027
147. “Can we please get some f***ing perspective?”
Well said. We need to wait for the pieces to fall into place. Some subjects can be very sensitive and could lead to serious threats to public order.
Evening all, watching SKY News on the Damien Green arrest. This is going to blow up in Brown’s face, allegations of police state etc.
David Cameron has announced 4 specific leaks Damien Green was involved in, all personal embarrasment for Government and especially the odious Member for Redditch. Probably the worst was the fact the Government had authorised 5000 illegal immigrants to do work on Government premises.
Charles I lost his head when he tried to usurp the proper work of Parliament. Are we going to see David Cameron demand an emergency debate on the floor of the Commons on Monday?
At present the front pages leading on Mumbai> I suspect the later editions will all lead on Damien Green and I can just imagine the Sun and Daily Mail/Express going on the stories he leaked.
151 Gaz
Stop believing your own publicity. The violence of police officers and soldiers in disguise is well-documented.
Thatcher was Britain’s first terrorist; she did more harm to more British people than any foreign government since WWII.
Malcolm
156 - Isn’t the “leaking” of those minutes a breach of the OSA?
165 bow locks
Virtually all of the sages on here who have expressed an opinion have come to the conclusion that this will work out bad for Labour.
Presumably, before making the decision to go ahead with this, Labour must have wieghed up the consequences for doing so. Obviously they know a lot more about the details of the case than the people on this site.
So, if it is obvious to the vast majority of the people on here that it is going to turn out so badly for Labour, why did Labour make the decision to take the action that was taken?
Surely if we as a collective can see it was going to turn out so badly within half an hour of the news breaking, why didn’t Labour come to the same conclusion?
I think there is probably a lot more to this than has come to light and there HAS to be a good reason for Labour making the decision to send in the boys in blue.
One or two of the more sensible posters have saud that it is going to turn out disastrous for one of the two Parties. I think it is perhaps advisable to wait until we know more facts before jumping to conclusions.
I really can’t believe Labour would commit Har Kari, as most on here seem to suggest.
159. Oracle: “David Cameron, the Conservative leader, is said to be “extremely angry” about the arrest and has privately accused the Government of “Stalinesque” behaviour.”
He seems to be having another ‘Baby P’ moment. The man is clearly deranged. It scares me that somebody so unhinged may be running the country in 18 months time. Does he really have so little faith in the police and our system of democracy?
HE IS NOT FIT TO LEAD OUR COUNTRY
Nick Robinson and Robert Peston apparently involved in an altercation over who got to the BBC shredder first.
165 - Troll.
165 F*ck off Darmstadium
The only way I think it would be serious for Green is:
He paid for/coerced the info.
It put sensitive and ongoing police/immigration operations at risk.
Anything else anyone could think of?
I think the reason that Green was arrested is the leak about the increased threat of violence and extremism. As it relates to national security. The other’s seem too minor to be taken seriously by the police.
SkyNews
PM no prior knowledge of arrest.
What a paraniod bunch a twits you lot are if you wanted to experience lies, distortion and the feel the power of a police state you should have been on the wrong side of picket line in 1984. Though I suspect for most of you that was a battle for ‘liberty and the rule of law blah blah blah.
159. It was a great tackle. Here it is:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uOivzoRc0I8&feature=related
This is a shot across the bows of other moles.
The civil service must be full of anti-Brown freedom fighters
161 - Great question, and deserves a great answer. I have many problems with the OSA, and I don’t like the idea that political leaking becomes a criminal matter unless it threatens national security.
Is it criminal? Maybe. Is it hypocritical of the Government to preach? Of course. That’s all I know.
Sensible questions deserve sensible answers - people comparing this to the Holocaust or the Stalinist purges is just f***ing stupid. And I’m very calm
The Prime Minister had no prior knowledge of this arrest
171
Oh dear.
176 bow locks
re 170 Agreed - except that it is hard to envisage the circumstances in which Damian Green’s “disclosure is in the public interest” defence won’t deal with.
The fact that Cameron has jumped in to defend his man suggests that the Tories feel they are on good ground.
181 - Translation - ‘Panic in Downing Street’
No 10 denying all knowledge. That almost certainly means Brown or Mandelson made a personal approach to Blair.
160. I don’t think he should, it starts looking like a political tactic to do it more than once.
182 For Gabble? Or Cameron for being right?
181 bow locks
181
Is that a fact
175 - That’s not a leak it’s confirming what people can work out for themselves anyway. Do they think we are stupid and not able to think of consequences of policy on our own?
176 - What about the Home Sec, did she have prior knowledge?
177 - Well, some of us were against that as well.
re 181 how do you know? Because he told you so? The man is a proven liar.
Is the Hain enquiry due to be published soon?
“may be running the country in 18 months time”
He will be running the country Gabble. Get used to it. And you may as well get used to how angry even your more mild-mannered opponents have just got.
147. Thanks Morus. You are entirely right. Let’s wait and see what’s going on.
176. frankly, i do not believe this to be true. There is absolutely no way on earth that a member of the shadow cabinet would be arrested in such a way (as a result of something to do with the government) without specific authorisation of the Home Secretary, and if you really think that the HS wouldnt throw this one up to the boss, you are living in different universe.
174. If he pressured or bribed a civil servant into doing so then he’s dead meat. But he would know the risks of that, I doubt Cameron would be backing him so strongly if Green was in the wrong. In general politicians don’t have to push too hard to get this sort of information. It’s like collecting windfalls in an orchard. There’s usually someone in a department who sympathizes with you or is peeved at policy or at being shafted and is only too happy to get back by embarrassing the government. I work for the DOE in Northern Ireland, there are currently 2 leak investigations ongoing there, one into a story that the Environment Minister, Sammy Wilson, was caught riding his motorbike without an MOT!
Is he the first MP to end up on the DNA database and have his fingerprints recorded and stored forever?
170 The question is it going to turn out bad for Labour. I get the feeling the arrest was a joker in the Campbell Mandelson pack to do the normal trick of the Tories are soft on terror now turned into “look the Tories are so soft on terror that they are prepared to leak sensitive stuff.” If the media take that line it could be bad for the Tories.
So far It looks like the reality is that the sensitive stuff is only sensitive to a completely incompetent government and if this is how it looks tomorrow then it would be rightly bad for Labour.
For the purposes of the common law offence, Damian Green is not a holder of public office. The alleged offence is that he either aided and abetted counselling or procuring misconduct in a public office. The holder of the public office would be the civil service whistleblower.
160. I don’t think he’s a principled/crazy as DD. This is looking very interesting though. If the report about 9 policemen is true then that will be a killer for the govt. Exp if someone can dig out a report of the police being unable to attend an incident in the London area this morning.
This site has become unparodyable! (Well said Mark Senior at 56).
I’m out of here….
165 - but there’s no evidence that anything of that nature made it into the public domain. I assume that any MP would show some responsibility in what leaked information they made public. The case that information about crimes committed by migrants is likely to cause a serious threat to public order is tenuous at best
MPs do have a degree of immunity from the law so that they can pursue their roles “without fear or favour”. Much as I would love to see the Tories in trouble it is important that MPs are able to get information from non-official sources
You do realise that the government doesn’t have the power to order arrests? Green’s arrest will have been taken after an investigation by the police. Even if evidence was passed to the police by the government, it will have been the police who made the decision to arrest him. This ZanuLabour stuff is ridiculous.
Speccie web site appears to be down due to volume of traffic. Lots of unimpressed people venting spleens.
LDs need an line on this tomorrow. Which?
198. No Greg Hands is on the database already
The bile is so refreshing.
Malcolm
191. I think there’s more to it than meets the eye. The memo might well have contained names of people under surveillance or some thing else important for national security. I’m not sure, but the idea that 9 counter-terrorism offices would arrest him because he is somehow damaging to labour too stupid to even consider. It’s clear that there must have been grounds for the police to arrest him. Also we should remember he hasn’t been charged with anything yet.
Sun headline. I can see it now… “MP arrested for doing his job”.
202 Is the doorbell ringing?
147. So very wrong. This episode encapsulates everything people have been warning about over the last few years - the sinister merging of the police with the executive, the passage of authoritarian legislation which will be routinely misused to persecute minor offences or no offence at all. The undermining of basic rights in the name of ‘efficiency’ or ’safety’.
And people who call themselves ‘liberal’ support this. Incredible.
211 looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
130 - We’re experiencing a Miss Marples Moment. Who knifed Damian? Dim Inspector Plod, acting on a malicious tip from an informant known only as ‘Peter’? A community outreach officer? Might it be the result of a contract put out on Damian by the Chancellor of the World himself? All the suspects - into the parlour and grab yourself a seat.
I’ve put my five squarely on your choice of villain. It’s Brown what done it. In his dreams, he thinks the Deripaska thing went well. Believing that the public are endlessly gullible and will lap up any amount of Tory Sleaze like a pack of thirsty beagles, he’s ordered another hit. Was Mandelson wielding the knife? Was it a Met insider? [Ian Blair's busy enjoying his massive pension, so this is tricky.]
Sad, sad Don Gordoleone. Trying to use immigration to rub out another Tory? Money and sex might have worked, but this is suicide.
184. One has to ask one’s self whether Cameron is aware of all the details and evidence.
It could even be a trap set for Cameron to get him to defend his man, only for Labour to produce even more damning evidence at a slightly later date, which Cameron cannot defend.
One things for sure, it could well shake up all the General Election betting markets.
205 website back up but no comments showing
This is from the Guardian:-
it is true we dont know much about this case and whether a law has or has not been broken , but the interesting aspect from a betting perspective is how it plays with he public . My sense is that the public does not trust labour ( Ecceleston to dodgy dossiers) and will believe what it wants to believe and labour will suffer badly at the polls . Not only is leaking labour’s stock in trade but police action against elected politicians taps into a deep part of the British pysche with roots centuries back - if labour get on the wrong side of this it will be very damaging for them . All labours past misdemeanours are going to be paraded in front of the electorate again and again
…..The arrest was heavy handed? Now there’s a surprise. Tony Blair’s secretary was arrested by 4 policemen at 6 o’clock in the morning.
Gaz is absolutely right. This must have gone ministerial unless the police have gone rogue.
If J Smith denies prior knowledge then they are being silly,she must have known or has lost control of the anti-terrorism police, and if she knew she had better have told No10.
But the man who never looked at polls before calling off an election says he had no prior knowledge.
The cover up is what will get them.
Anybody watching the Portsmouth match?
196. Don’t try to deflect from the facts. A shadow Minister has been arrested, and the PM had no prior knowledge. It is a Police matter.
222 Operation Mincemeat
219 i thought you were off……..
I was struck that Cameron appears to have come out quickly and assertively behind Green.
The first priority of CCHQ when Green was nicked will have been to protect Cammo from any potential blowback. The fact that they are taking such a punchy stance, with Cameron apparently personally involved, suggests that they are very sure they are on firm ground.
Lets hope Damian hasn’t been economical with the actualite in what he has told CCHQ.
217 It’s round up the Whistleblowers time. Shameful.
Go out for dinner and come back to find Brown has finally moved us to a police state.
Usual Labour apologists telling us to calm down but this is a truly desperate moment in our democracy and I agree that there is no way something as significant as this could have happened without Brown knowing.
I am sure the odious gollum has arranged plausible deniability but someone must of put the police up to it and does anyone seriously think Brown didnt give them the go ahead.
This is dynamite and will continue the sea change in the narrative against the Brown regime.
On a purely political level I hope they charge Green as the trial of a politican arrested for ‘opposing’ the government will be quite an event. However, I am sure Damian Green doesnt fancy being a martyr.
222 and you take Gordo’s word . You must be very foolish if you do.
215 - That isn’t what Cameron’s form on these things are. In the Osborne and Spellman case, he makes virtually no comment on the incident in question. It always goes for the lets wait and see, but am confident they have done nothing wrong.
The report in the Telegraph is completely different level of defence, well it isn’t defence, it is attack.
222 Nonsense. Shadow Minister arrested - PM would have known. IF he didn’t - there’s a story there.
Very interesting. If Green has only received a leak and acted in public interest to reveal it and then the Govt has sent round 9 anti-terrorist police, then the Govt is in deep trouble and expect a huge backlash.
225.”I was struck that Cameron appears to have come out quickly and assertively behind Green”
Yes, one might say a little precipitate.
Congratulations, Roger - 4 minutes, a new pbc record.
If Green is suspected of being involved in buying and leaking confidential and officially secret documents then why wouldn’t the police arrest him? Isn’t that, you know, their job?
“George Osborne seeks to unearth VAT bombshellThe Tories are hoping to prove that the government thought of raising VAT to 20% in 2012″
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2008/nov/27/georgeosborne-pre-budget-report
Brown had no prior knowledge. Now I can’t believe that a policeman investigating and then arresting an MP would not concult the Home Office for clearence/advice. I then can’t believe that Jacqui Smith would not know about it and then inform the Prime Minister. It’s a pretty big move after all and Brown is a control freak.
Don’t buy it.
Keep it up, best fun I’ve had for ages; bile-ridden Tories - soon to be running our sad little country. It couldn’t be a better fit.
Of course the public won’t notice the change of party; NuLabour Nazis to Old Thatcher Nazis. Well, there you go.
Malcolm
232 Like the new name Darmstadtium.
As I lurk, watch and read in this site I become increasingly exasperated with my fellow Conservatives.
Maybe I’m just naive, but the idea that Labour have orchestrated Damian Green’s arrest is just preposterous.
Never underestimate that power of unintentional consequences. Labour may well have asked (quite reasonably) for the police to investigate leaks but will never have imagined that a Shadow Cabinet member might have been arrested as a consequence.
A pound to a penny says that the police followed the trail of the evidence and it eventually led to Damian.
They then felt obliged to arrest him under the legislation having, quite properly, no regard for the political consequences.
Had Labour been consulted, I bet they would have asked for it not to be pursued but, by that stage, it was beyond their control.
218 - ” My sense is that the public does not trust labour ( Ecceleston to dodgy dossiers) ”
After which the electorate re-elected them.
Who said lawbreakers can’t be lawmakers? Even if Green has only broke the spirit of the law he has to go.
Anyone got the link to that film of Fuhrer Brown?
229 - Exactly. He has always been noticeably cautious, even with as big a fish as Osborne, at least to start with. Why so punchy with a small fry like Green? Must be very confident.
Lets not runaway here - the police were asked to investigate a presumed crime. They arrested an MP to find out what he knew and said what he was being investigated for. 9 police sounds a bit heavy handed.
There are issues of parliamentary privilege (Mr Speaker will be interested), public interest and then there is the entirely separate political story.
I think the cards are in Cameron’s hands as he can claim public interest and at same time remind people of the scandals that have hit the Home Office. Cannot see it’s in Labours interest for those to be revived. Journalist will tend to support Green as “there for the grace of God go I”.
209 - but that would really be an issue for action against the leaker not the recipient. If it became apparent that leaked material contained such information I’m pretty certain that the usual course of action is the “quiet word” to the MP.
I could be wrong but I’m struggling to think of an incident where an MP leaked information which had security implications
242. Cameron can be very effective when he shows his teeth, i think people like that.
239. I don’t believe labour had him arrested either, but the fact Brown is denying all prior knowledge is laughable. Jacqui Smith would have been informed, and unless she doesn’t talk to The PM he would have known too. The fact an opposition MP may be being arrested for spreading a leak is strange, this has been the normal practice since parliament began, Labour used it regularly and weren’t arrested.
and there will be a lot of journalists attending Cameron’s soiree on the economy tomorrow as a result of this. Hope he makes good use of the audience.
“Maybe I’m just naive, but the idea that Labour have orchestrated Damian Green’s arrest is just preposterous.”
Why? I wouldn’t be surprised if the move was sanctioned by the Home Secretary herself.
Even if Damien paid for the information, this could well still rebound on Labour since they were trying to cover up their failures. People can be very pragmatic about committing little crimes to uncover bigger crimes. It’s well known, and accepted, that all parties get leaks from each other.
The next question is, how clean is Labour? If just one Labour MP were found to have bought leaked information, the party would be in deep trouble, as they would if they’d got it by any other underhand means.
My suspicion is that this is a Thomas Beckett type situation. Gordon Brown wouldn’t directly order the arrest of a shadow cabinet member - too politically risky - but he might well say they should be arrested, and there are ambitious subordinates and policemen who would take that as license to act.
Considering how many journalists get leaks, I can’t see this going down well with the media at all.
56. and 202. Yes I’m astonished by some of the posts on here - the rush to support Green without anyone having much evidence is showing a marked lack of maturity and judgement. A lot of the hyperbole is, unintentionally, very funny nonetheless.
Why has Brown come straight out to the media and denied that he had anything to do with Greens arrest?
Does he seriously expect anybody to believe him, apart from a few useful idiots?
It’s typical of gutless Brown: It wasn’ae me, it wasn’ae me, a big boy did it and ran away.
…meanwhile - no sign of that ICM poll…
Am I correct in thinking that each and every one of these documents was printed in newspapers after being leaked? The government didn’t take any action to prevent the newspapers from printing these documents, nor did they suggest any form of breach of national security when the printing occured. If they did, I certainly missed it. Also, don’t papers have lawyers who they run these things past to make sure they are not complicit in a crime of some kind?
We still don’t know what the heck is going on here, but does it strike anyone else as odd that nothing happened when these things were printed, but the moment a Tory MP is found to be a possible source it’s suddenly much more serious?
243 “the police were asked to investigate a presumed crime”
Asked by whom?
Who knew?
The Head of the Met? The Attorney General? The Home Secretary? But, we are told, not McCavity? Scary that he can be so ill-informed on a matter that will have such political and perhaps constitutional aspects….
238. Sorry?
250 I bet Brown’s sitting in Number 10 with a great big grin on his face tonight.
253 Agree - see 230
@246. I really don’t think it is laughable. Why would the police feel obliged to tell the Home Secretary or the Prime Minister? They are, after all, not part of the machinery of the House. They might well feel obliged to tell the Speaker and maybe even inform Cameron but why Brown or Smith?
254 Its the Gordon Brown defence. I knew nothing, wasnt me .gov..co.uk
254 - You will be.
255. I think he started out with a grin but its probably turned into the hitler scene on youtube.
257 The arrest of an MP, you gotta be kidding.
206. I wouldn’t take a position on it at all. Say it is up to the police but innocent until proven guilty etc etc. I don’t think there is much to be gained by wading in right now.
239 One sensible post from a Conservative amongst endless dross .
Labour brought in new laws to protect whisleblowers.
Anyone know whats covered
It is completely unprecedented for the recipient of leaks to be arrested. The leaker, yes, but not the recipient.
Unless it turns out that the leaker was Green’s brother, or in the pay of the Conservative Party, i can’t see how this will play anything but well for the Conservatives.
We’ll see.
And now they’re trying to get at George Osborne through his brother:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5244743.ece
This has all the hallmarks of an orchestrated government purge of its opponents.
259. “You will be” what?
Labour will do anything they can to cling to power - it looks very dodgy to me that Green is arrested when for instance the now independent Labour MP Claire Short was warned off about some of her knowledge advocating in her musings to journo’s but not arrested.
Looks very dodgy to me and Labour have started political arrests, what next inturnment camps for Tory voters?
To those who say I overexgerate - Labour have tried banning the opposition from campaigning in marginal seats and cite Ashcroft. To that I say what about Sainsbury?
I can understand Labour supporters defending the undefendable but LD’s doing it as well
263 - talking of “endless dross”…..
The police do not need to arrest someone to interview them, and certainly not with 9 heavies in attendance at the person’s home, and when that person is an MP who is involved in the investigation through his parliamentary role, then it is even more peculiar.
It sounds like a fishing expedition to search his office and home to see what they can come up with. And it is the thought of the police searching a parliamentary office which really alarms me. Looks like an attempt to catagorise opposition and whistleblowing with breaking the official secrets act.
And that is only one step from making opposition a crime.
Whatever Green has done this is clumsy and bizarre.
239 Are you a recent convert?
Anyway - the story is being blacked out by Mumbai on the Beeb 1 News at 10. Will it get much traction with the public?
232 Major William Martin.Are you a serving officer or in the Salvation Army? You will know, of course, that it is considered bad form to use your rank after retirement.
249 Gambler
I agree, this is such fun. We got out of Thailand just before the royalist rioters arrived and come home to the Mumbai situation and worry for our world.
Then this Green business breaks and the Tories bleat and NuLabour supporters snigger; this issue is obviously far more important than the possible collapse of governments in India and Thailand.
Wonderful, so bloody funny.
Malcolm
272 - as of yet, doesn’t seem to be.
267 - You’ll be sorry of course; all false information, not to be trusted. Better to dispose of them.
I agree with those that say it is highly significant that Cameron has come out swinging on this one so quickly. That means he must know the charges, the incidents etc and know that his man is in the clear morally and politically.
239. I doubt very much whether Brown personally ordered the arrest - that would be stupid to the point of him getting dragged out of No.10
Much more likely is that a senior police officer thought that he could get some brownie points, after having discussed the matter with relevant minister (Home Office??).
Given the recent storm over bugging MPs, I do not believe that the matter was not raised politically first.
The nuclear case for Labour was if any of the politicians that Green has embarrassed with his revelations were involved in the discussions of the arrest.
257. Arresting a shadow minister? Really? This is extremely high profile, and would have involved discussion with the speaker. Of course the home secretary would have been notified such a high profile person and fellow MP was being investigated and arrested.
I wonder… plod goes in, searches his offices (including in HoC? wouldn’t do that without political approval from v. high up) with 9 anti-terrorist officers - and apparently there’s 4 fiddling little embarrassing leaks.
Much more likely - they expected to find something much more serious - but didn’t, either because he didn’t have it or it’s somewhere else or they’ve got it drastically wrong and he’s not involved.
A case of SAPFU I think, and even more embarrassing than anything in their darkest nightmares.
273. Perhaps it’s his name as in ‘Major Major’?
This arrest is a massive abuse of state power.
It goes against Article XI of the 1688 Bill of Rights.
263. Thank god you were not a jew in 1940’s germany Mark, you would probably have asked for some soap as they took you to the showers!
well BBC not very excited about the story. No 15 mins into News at Ten and they are still talking about India and even the cricket tour is tking priority
LibDem mps rowing in behind Green? Or just the ‘mavericks’?
Story will be discussed on Question Time.
I don’t disagree with anyone (like our host) who speculates that if all Damian Green has done is receive and publicise four leaks that are embarrassing for the Government, then Labour will not do well with this.
I just can’t see that there’s any evidence or even rationale for the suggestion that Labour is behind it other than having made the initial complaint.
283.
The BBC have been very good at priorities these last few days. The atrocity in India is worth at least half the time, no doubt about it.
281 - Welcome again John and good to hear your disgust at this. Any word on the official lib dem position?
285.
I thought QT was filmed in the afternoon.
Next we will have Hazel Blears asking police to investigate blogs on grounds of National Security.
Any suggestion that NO_ONE in Government knew nothing before an MP is arrested? Lol.
George H it is part of the procedure in cases involving senior or sensitive people to inform the Home Secretary of what is going on. She carries the political can and the police, and Special Branch, who are the civil arm of the security service, so to speak, have a a procedure file showing what they must do in such circumstances.
With a leading member of the Opposition to be arrested they must have told her even if they did not have to ask permission. If that was not done she is out of the loop and that is dangerous for us all. If she did know she would certainly have made sure the PM’s team would have been informed and if they did not tell him they are not very good at their job.
285 - I’d think quite the opposite, to be honest. There is absolutely zero room for speculation in the media about this, particularly in an environment like live TV.
Piennar going with the angle - “Must have at least something to do with Labour, though they denail all”
Two other questions come to mind
Why were anti-terrorism officers involved?
What will Tory MPs think about the Speaker giving permission for an MPs office to be searched?
Seems astonishing that the Police would arrest Shadow Ministers without consulting the Home Secretary first, doesn’t it? (which is what the Govt is saying, and whatever is written by the excitable people above i don’t think we have any reason to doubt them).
Someone is going to have to answer some serious questions.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting Brown ordered the arrest, but I don’t buy that neither he nor Jacqui Smith had no knowledge.
Mark Senior obviously thinks Mike Smithsom must be a Tory troll.
If it is about the Home Office docs mentioned above, then would the press support a gov stance against someone giving them stories they want to run with?
My guess is probably not.
IF, IF the story is what it seems, then Cameron will make hay.
257. because that’s how policing is done in this country. In such a circumstance, anything political, straight up to the Home Office, and in a case like this, it is beyond reality to believe that the final say was not with the Home Secretary.
The HS is regularly kept in the loop on operational issues around terrorism, and it is just implausible to believe that the arrest of a member of her majesty’s loyal opposition would not have being okayed.
Does anybody have any clue as to the position with the police accessing this MP’s constituents files. They cannot possibly conduct a search regarding leaks without going through ALL his documentation. His constituents are going to be v impressed their private correspondence is being pawed over by plod.
I think there is too little information to make any concrete claims, for the Tories, the situation would look dramatically worse if money (even if not from the Conservatives, but from a newspaper) had changed hands. For Labour, it is possible that the government was not informed, but this could turn into a PR disaster - if the 4 documents cited are all they have, it would make th Tories look like the honest monitors of the incompetent government.
It would be normal to assume that a sensitive investigation of leaked documents would require a senior investigating officer and if they were going to arrest a Shadow Cabinet minister, I cannot believe that the police didnt bother to consult with the Home Secretary. Legally I think they’d be well within their rights not to do so, but politically it is dynamite and any SIO with hopes of promotion would have to be aware of the sensitivity.
If Downing Street really didnt know, it is still possible that the blowback from this will be very bad for the government.
You bleaters are so out of touch with reality.
World riots and economic woes and you want to talk about Rev Green; its obvious to me that he did it in the House of Commons with a plumber’s wrench.
Malcolm
George Osborne on the BBC- what an idiot. Blabbing his mouth off before he knows anything about anything.
Lucky he wasn’t fingered himself after his shennanegans on the boat.
Ed P @271 I am a sitting councillor of 10 years, ran our GE campaign locally in 2001, stood at the 2005 GE and am standing again in 2009 / 10 . . . . so I guess the answer is not really.
Mark Senior clearly forgot his Liberal principles a long time ago in his anti-Tory mindset.
This arrest of Damien Green is a truly shocking indication of the assault on all our liberties by this rotten Govt.
I agree with those who say this will play badly in the media, at least for all our sakes I hope it will.
283
New Sun Headline. Its just not cricket!
270. Maybe the police wanted to search Green’s computer to find out who to go after in the Home Office. It’s a purge of the whistleblowers.
the nature of the leaked info - immigration - makes this story explosive because there is a strong feeling that the government has been less than candid on this topic
302. You should retract that comment unless you know something the police should be aware of.
302 Thats nonsene Tyson, He must have been given the nod on whats what. Perpaps you didnt like what he said as it didnt fit your remit??
Think John Hemmings has answered my second question at 294 - if a Liberal Democrat MP thinks its against the protection afforded Parliament in the Bill of Rights then most probably its not only the Tory MPs who might question the Speaker and Serjeant at Arms roles
289, it is filmed about a couple of hours before broadcast… usually kicking off about 8pmish
281 - Arguably the spirit, but not the letter John
Freedom from arrest applies only to Civil offences (which is only contempt of court now)
AFAICS nothing relates solely to Green’s activities in the House and it’s well accepted that privilege doesn’t relate to matters outside the house.
However my reference book says “The House as the right to be informed of the arrest of an MP…. and the reasons thereof” Does anyone know if this has happened?
282. And now Jewish victims of the Holocaust being brought into the story!
Have the Tories on here gone stark raving bonkers?
286. Well exactly, unless you believe the government were behind the arrest of Tony Blair’s press secretary. The police will not have arrested Green unless they had a solid legal basis to do so. The government couldn’t force them to arrest them even if they wanted to.
re 285 I imagine it would have been too late for QT
Hardly got a mention on the news - can`t see this Green business capturing the public imagination somehow .
301.
World riots and economic woes and you want to talk about Rev Green; its obvious to me that he did it in the House of Commons with a plumber’s wrench.
The BBC seems to be spending more time about changing the law re strip clubs. You don’t think that the arrest of an MP might deserve a bit more time and a bit less about Peter Stringfellow’s business?
What exactly does a leak about immigration have to do with counter-terrorist police?
Green has been arrested on grounds of “conspiracy to commit misconduct in a public office”.
That must suggest that the Police think the leaker was either paid and/or a Conservative plant.
Firstly, let me agree with Morus: lets have some perspective. This isn’t nazism, stalinism or a police state. No one has been rounded up, no one has diappeared. The police are investigating a possible crime. That’s what they are supposed to do.
Now, it may be that no crime was committed. I have no idea but then neither does anyone else on this site. Let’s wait and see.
Secondly, I agree with the consensus that this is dangerous ground for Labour. The government must have known beforehand - it would be an incredible if not - and being partisan I hope they considered it carefully. If it looks politically mtivated it could really blow up in their faces.
316
The MSM do not operate in real time…
147 If its like Pol Pot and Chairman Mao - it’s alright then.
147 If its like Pol Pot and Chairman Mao - it’s alright then.
Has the Speccie site crashed - or are no comments getting through for more ‘political’ reasons? Guido has already taken down a post comparing Brown (very accurately) with Mugabe. Meanwhile the MSM are playing down the story - sensing how it will blow up in the Great Leader’s ugly mug. These are sinister times.
Gordon Brown didn’t know anything about it until after the event.
Apparently.
314
The government couldn’t force them to arrest them even if they wanted to.
They can decide whether to press charges or not, surely?
ITV scarcely mentioned it .
318
Nothing But anti terrorism laws let the police do anything …..
Be careful what you wish for all those who are hoping for ‘Tory Sleeze’ headlines… this will rebound big time on the government.
I think there is a danger of the Tories overplaying this, yes if there’s government involvement then it’s deeply troubling, but to start throwing around words like Stalinish and referring to the holocaust is exaggerating in such a way that diminishes what happened.
317.
Maybe the BBC are just being careful. They got burned in the past by being too quick to reach a narrative. One party is clearly going to come out of this very badly.
254 “Major William Martin” are you real? If you are, why are you using a military rank when it is considered bad form for anyone other than a serving officer under the rank of half colonel to use their rank after retirement.
OR are you adopting the name of the imaginary soldier we used in 1943 to fool the GErmans by planting fake ID on a dead man along with fake war plans and then float his body in the sea for Spanish Fishermen to find so the Germans could get the info!!!
Since this is a betting site should we look at the odds of Grenn becoming Shadow Home Sec since some think Grieve should be replaced?
yes 329 -to the average voter who is focused on the next eviction from `I`m a Celebrity` it makes the Torys seem bonkers .
325. NO!
The arrest and charging is completely outside the purview of the legislative and executive bodies. If the government has actually got involved then that’s a bigger story than anything and I for one will be kicking up all the fuss I can.
329 - perhaps we can come to a compromise on “police state”?
Technically that could absolve the Govt from involvement?
Witan @291. You have me at a disadvantage as I really don’t know enough about the procedures.
Perhaps Nick Palmer can advise?
My main point remains that the idea that Labour somehow orchestrated this seems highly unlikely to me.
Interesting that Cameron is attributed with ‘Stalinist’, but it’s been spun to Piennar as ‘Senior Conservative Source’.
corporeal - yes, Stalinist came out of Tory mouths, but any mentions to holocausts were made by posters on here; hardly the mouthpiece of CCHQ.
re 310 well having just read the bits of the Bill of Rights 1688 which remain in force I can’t see what’s he’s getting at. Is it this one
Freedom of Speech.
That the Freedome of Speech and Debates or Proceedings in Parlyament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any Court or Place out of Parlyament.
315 - A quote from Osborn on the BBC 10 o’clock was definitely from the QT set.
317. Do you think the fact that the much-maligned BBC didn’t report more is that they are keeping their powder dry until they have more facts? Can be a useful tactic, especially when you don’t know what you’re talking about
The media won’t want to say too much for fear of saying things that could get them into trouble for similar reasons. They are just being cautious.
325 - Final decision on prosecution comes down to the Attorney General. But that would be a long way down the line. They couldn’t have any say in arrests.
337 - “Stalinesque” actually.
282. Martin Day: That is sickening; truly shameful comment!!
think this is a story which will take off tomorrow, especially as it coinsides with cameron’s economic announcement tomorrow. Tories should dominate the news sceens tomorrow!
Contrary to all the posts on here, i suspect the official Conservative line will be to ask questions of the Police, not the govt.
Hold on a minute… pink papers in local government can be released by elected members if they feel it is in the public interest.
Ok, they have to then jusfity their actions and take the rap if they are found to be wrong, but they don’t get arrested for it!
Surely there is a version of this for MP’s?
331 Major William Martin didnt exist either. The nasme was a fake too. Hisreal name was Glyndwr Michael.
…..(including many recently declassified documents) about the ficticious ‘Major William Martin’. The results will appear on these pages.
It will also confirm the identity of the body used by British Naval Intelligence, in conjunction with MI5, as that of Mr Glyndwr Michael, who was born in Aberbargoed, South Wales, on January 4th, 1909, the son of Thomas Michael and Sarah Ann Chadwick (later Michael), and who died in London on or about January 28, 1943, in circumstances which have yet to be honestly explained by those who later used it.
344 - Yes, a few people need to calm down.
Those that know me will no I am hardly a cheerleader of the Tories but FWIW I have happy memories of having a long, chatty breakfast with Damien Green a few years ago. I found him to be a thoroughly decent man as well as extremely charming and polite. I will be rather shocked if he is guilty of anything.
In fact i think Mike should remove half the comments on this thread.
Those that know me will know I am hardly a cheerleader of the Tories but FWIW I have happy memories of having a long, chatty breakfast with Damien Green a few years ago. I found him to be a thoroughly decent man as well as extremely charming and polite. I will be rather shocked if he is guilty of anything.
338 Yes - that’s the bit that guarantees Parliaments’s privileges.
Thinking about this - is this a Harry Redknapp type arrest? One that got a lot of light but not much heat at the end of it. A warning, if you like
The pathetic Labour apologists on this site have a strange sensitivity bypass on this. Usually so keen on human rights - suddenly it seems the Conservatives are making a fuss about nothing. You really are showing your true authoritarian instincts.
re 351 why? Because they show the anger of many at the actions of this government and the sort of society that we’re becoming? That would be the new Labour response.
347 - I’m certain the charge relates to the supposed Conspiracy, not the leaking itself.
It is one thing for Shadow ministers to receive and release unsolicited leaks. It is another to be “running a mole”.
355 - Man suspected of crime. Man arrested and questioned about crime. It’s a police state!
356 - Did you read post 282?
re 357 but conspiracy is a common law offence so why the anti-terrorism police. Surely they’ve got more important things to do like stopping people reciting the names of the dead, or picketing an arms expo?
357 - ie. the “misconduct in public office” charge relates to the leaker. If the leak was solicited then Green could potentially become subject to the “conspiracy” charge.
167 Malcolm
I respect you greatly but speaking as someone who was born in a council house in a mining area and whose family were miners for generations miners, including my brother who was one at the the time of the miners strike and whose father [in the same house at the same time] was a senior officer dealing with the miners strike -
you sound like someone who got his opinions from watching Billy Elliot.
360
But under anti terrorism laws police have MUCH wider powers…
re 359 Yes OTT but that’s Martin’s way. You said remove “half the comments” that’s 180 of them.
360 - it remains to be seen where this “anti-terrorism police” angle has come from.
Soon as I head about this story, I thought - Mandelson.
Ever since he’s turned up again (like a floater that won’t flush), UK politics has the stench of foul games about it…
364- you don’t think a bit of exaggeration is in keeping with the thread?
359. It was being Ironic! i.e showing blind trus.
I am amased you think that half the comments on this thread should be taken down yet it is alright to arrest an MP from an opposition party on trival grounds? Oh - you must be a Liberal Democrat!
365 - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/3532133/Tory-minister-Damian-Green-arrested-under-the-Official-Secrets-Acts.html
About 240 comments an hour. Not been this busy since David Davis resigned. Site holding up nicely though. Good job, Robert.
357 Conspiracy isn’t limited in the ways you suggest - it’s basically agreement with another person or persons to commit a crime. If the crime is passing on information, the act of releasing the information is the crime and accepting it could make you a conspirator to that act.
368 - you must be referring to someone else. I think it’s outrageous unless the Police have got an incredible case that hasn’t come out yet.
At the very least i expect them to be claiming money to have changed hands or the leaker to be a Conservative plant.
368 - Actually, the only MP we have had condemning this on here is a lib dem (John Hemming upthread).
371 - it could, but it would be astonishing if that led to a Police arrest.
Stop everything, i’ve just got home to all the dramz.
This all sounds very bizzare, Stalinist even. Perhaps something to deflect attention away from the Epic Fail of the PBR?
A shadow minister being arrested for revealing information which was embarrassing to the goverment but in the public interest will, whatever the truth, lead fingers to point at the government.
313- The Gambler- Martin has advocated on occasion nuking Africa to deal with global over population
371. According to the link in 369 he’s not accused of conspiracy, but aiding and abetting.
The Times - “Mr Green’s constituency office was also searched”.
No doubt strategic private local polling data and all Tory campaign literature was ‘confiscated’ in the ‘public interest’.
Next stop: Every registered Tory member in Ashford will receive a knock on the door in the middle of the night…
Hhmmmmnnnn ….
PB’s favourite …. (Andrea !!) transvestite Italian former MP - Damien Green - has won Celebrity Island after revealing all with the help of a whistleblower !!
In other news Conservative front bencher Vladamir Luxuria has had his fancy tickled by the old bill on a beach in Westminster. David Cameron is said to be standing full square behind Vlad with his bucket and spade.
Funny old world … Hic ….
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jb6n9SrZFdbDVIIuMBuavdM9fnDg
364. I think on reflection he should apologise, that was incredibly tastelss. No matter how passionate he feels about a particular event or situation. People have been censored for much smaller slip-ups.
374. The jew comment was in relation to Mark Senior - I was being ironic! That was the reference about LD’s as Mark seems to be the first LD i have ever come across who is pro-Labour, Pro-state, anti-freedom etc.
Yes it is good the LD MP made the comment against it. I think he is right.
Iain Dale
The Consequences of the Arrest of the Ashford One
Iain Dale 10:00 PM
It’s always dangerous to comment on breaking news stories. The full facts are rarely known, but in the last half an hour quite a bit of information has emerged, which should give all those who cherish our freedoms and democracy great cause for concern.
At 2pm today counter terrorism police arrested Damian Green at his constituency home in East Kent. He was brought to London and currently is detained awaiting interview. It is now 9.43pm and seven hours after his arrest, he has, apparently, still to be questioned. These are the tactics of a totalitarian state. According to reports, he was arrested for “aiding and abetting misconduct in public office”. I’m not sure which law pertains to this. Perhaps readers can enlighten us.
His “crime” has been to reveal Home Office statistics and misconduct which they tried to cover up. If it is now a crime for a politician to do this sort of thing then just think how many other people should have been arrested - Robert Peston being a good recent example. What about government ministers who relished leaking information about the PBR?
One of the most disturbing aspects of what we know so far is that the Police were permitted by the Serjeant at Arms and The Speaker to search Damian’s House of Commons office. Outrageous. I would guarantee that if Parliament had been sitting, they would never have dared. Their entry would have been barred. One MP I have spoken to tonight said that he would have physically barred their way and shouted for help to assist him in preventing their entry.
The general public should be appalled at these developments, as should the media. I am disturbed that both Sky News and the Telegraph are already speculating that Damian Green’s position as Shadow Minister is under threat. They should concentrate on the wider implications of this. If Green can be arrested by counter terror police, what about the journalists who then reported on the information Green allegedly gave them (detailed HERE)? First they came for the politicians - then they came for the journalists. It might be a well worn cliche, but there is a serious point to be made.
There is no way that this arrest could have happened without the involvement of Government ministers. We need to know who instigated it and if the Prime Minister, Home Secretary or Justice Secretary authorised it. One has to assume that Jacqui Smith was the lead Minister.
If the Government feels unconstrained about invoking anti terror legislation and deploying counter terror police at a whim, on issues completely unrelated to terrorism, where exactly are we heading?
We don’t yet live in a Police State, but one be forgiven on nights like this from wondering if we are headed that way.
http://www.iaindale.blogspot.com/
OK, refraining from any comment on the specific incident, my understanding of the procedure is this:
- If official documents are confidential, it is an offence to be part of an attempt to disclose them. The degree of offence depends on how actively one is involved - I wouldn’t think that merely receiving them is an offence.
- Governments will always ask for an investigation into unauthorised disclosure. They will not normally be given a running commentary on progress, nor will they be consulted on whether an arrest should take place. If you think about it, one wouldn’t want this to be part of the procedure, since it would imply that the Government could decide whether to proceed on a political basis.
- The Commons should be informed about the arrest of any MP. When the Commons is not sitting (e.g. today), the Speaker will be informed, and I would expect a statement to be made at the first opportunity (i.e. next week), though aspects might be sub judice.
- A decision on whether to press charges will normally be taken by the CPS, and will not be rushed in a sensitive case. The Attorney-General could in theory overrule a CPS decision, but in practice it’s unlikely.
The system is supposed to detach the police from political influence. I’d be wary of suggesting the contrary on the basis of what we know so far.
Yay - Jack’s back……!!!
378 - It seems that there’s a lot of misinformation flowing about
This says conspiracy.
375 We have no idea what the police are doing it for, just suggesting (as I think you did) that there is a need to be careful of drawing conclusions or making assertions.
Apparently he is still in custody - and suggested that after 7 or so hours he still had not been questioned.
379.
Don’t forget using tatical nuclear weapons on the Laki volcanic feature near iceland to curb global warning! 
When the police went on a similar spree pulling in all and sundry in connection with ‘cash for peerages’ the site was full of understanding and appreciation of police procedure.
Now they’ve morphed into Nazis. I wonder what changed?
the telegraph links the story to the PBR leaks - hinting perhaps that this was the motivation that somehow spurred the police investigation on -
Well looks like the Guardian are either holding ICM back or its not due till Saturdays paper.
390 - They couldn’t be accused of acting on the orders of the Tory Party?
383 Your irony is as weak and misplaced as your constant forecasting of a McCain victory .
393 No doubt they are putting it to one side so they can go big on “Tories in police probe scandal” blah blah blah.
Toynbee: “Again, this has shown how evil Tories are. Thank goodness we have our dear leader to point the way” etc etc etc…
390. Hmm. Now I wonder what Iain Dale said on his blog back then?
Typical of the police though, if you were to phone up and say somebody was being murdered you would go in a queue due to them being busy finishing their tea break and short of staff, but for these type of things they manage to find vanloads of police ,just in case its a dangerous MP. Its unbelievable.
385 “The Attorney-General could in theory overrule a CPS decision”
What about the House - could it overrule a CPS decision? There were enough MP’s that were prepared to stand up for their inalienable right to receive John Lewis vouchers. Might they get sufficiently roused to intervene to protect their right to receive information that is accurate, but might embarrass a few Ministers?
390. I wonder what changed?
I don’t think selling peerages was seen in the national interest.
Whereas arresting an opposition MP does seem a little strange given the information on the table at the moment. If you think that the MP should be arrested and charged might as well arrest the government as well.
Very good reactions for Osborne so far, very. Looks like the character assasination hasn’t worked at all.
397 - I don’t think so. The Attorney General’s power does not derive from Parliament.
Alastair Burt MP on Con Home, ” This man is my friend whom I have known for over thirty years. A more conscientious and public spirited politician you could not hope to find. I hope the Goverment has good lawyers to defend itself in due course, because Damian’s friends will take them to the cleaners if he does not. When we think about the deception and deceit which has characterised this Government, the arrest of an Opposition politician just takes the biscuit. A step too far. We now have to remove not just a useless Government, but a dangerous one. And you can quote me. “
Nick Palmer @385 Many thanks for responding.
394. oh I had forgotten McCain as I have been enjoying the economic boom you forecast so much!
Crick just confirmed what i said up thread about Gordon Brown been involved in leaking documents!
“…Downing Street spokesman said: “This is a matter for the police. The prime minister had no prior knowledge of the arrest of Mr Green and was only informed after the event.”"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7753557.stm
Michael Crick talking about it on Newsnight and saying could have huge ramifications for Govt and Boris apparently knew beforehand and warned police against it.
403 Ypur idiocy has no limits , at no time did I forecast an economic boom , but in countless tedious posts you spouted time after time that McCain would win .
Good criticisms of the PBR on QT, far too small, badly targetted, reckless.
406. Boris?
400. Neither does the Prime Minister’s.
405 won’t matter if that’s true - if the press say 404.
The idea the Gov wouldn’t have know nothing about it before the arrest is ridiculous.
Anyone ever heard of leaks?
390. While I dont think one can compare the two scenarios, selling peerages and leaking government documents, the Conservatives would do well to remember that
1) The police investigate breaches of the law
2) Would the Conservatives agree that all government documents should be freely leakable? Especially if they were embarrassing for the government? Surely that means that the advice given to Ministers would be circumscribed by worries over leaks.
But Labour shouldnt be smug either. I dont believe that the SIO on a political case like this would not have kept Ministers in the loop. I also think that no matter what one thinks of the law on this matter, if the only charges relate to the four known leaks, the government are going to look unpleasant and vindictive. This just isnt the same as having sold peerages for cash - the public are going to be in favour of the honest watchdog.
409.
Indeed. Why would the Mayor of London be informed about police activity in Kent?
Is the Downing Street spokesman Mandy Rice-Davis?
406/9 - Curioser and curioser. I find it difficult to believe that the police informed Boris but didn’t tell the Home Secretary. And if he warned them against it i’m sure he would have been adamant that they tell the Home Secretary so that he didn’t get into trouble for “protecting his political friends”.
Nick Palmer - thanks for your view. It will be nice to hear your view tommorrow night when the facts are clearer.
“No more boom and bust” - Zanu-Labour
Crick said Boris had been made aware - but he didn’t ask the pertinent question: why??!
406, so Boris knew but Gordon didn’t? Gordon is lying.
409. The London Mayor is in essence the political head of the Met… Or, has become so, with the forced resignation of Ian Blair.
413 - Counter-terrorism comes under the Met Police.
390.
When the police went on a similar spree pulling in all and sundry in connection with ‘cash for peerages’ the site was full of understanding and appreciation of police procedure.
Sorry, Gordo-I mean Roger, which Labour MPs were arrested in the course of the investigation? My memory is hazy.
407. Mark Senior =
386 MM. An excellent single malt prefaced a swift return !!
And only temporary …. I’m working desperately hard on the new novel - “Harry Poofter and the Half Cut Jewish Circumsized Prince” - before shortly taking sail on the Obama Cruise until the New Year !!
That is an extraordinary revelation, if true. That Boris Johnson advised the police not to arrest a fellow party member. Why would he offer an opinion either way?
BORIS!!?? WTF?
Incidentally anyone who has read Peter Wrights book will understand that there are costs to having politicized civil servants. If on the other hand it was just someone trying to make a fast buck and Damien Green took advantage then fair enough…. But as yet none of us know.
Labour = c*nts.
406. Boris knew but the Home Office didn’t b******s.
This could look very grim for Labour.
Boris has become quite close to the new commissioner and the MPA met earlier today. Could be related.
The Mail are suggesting that it’s an act of spite cooked up between Jacqi Smith and Ian Blair for past embarrassments.
42 Is there a smilie applicable to you = raving lunatic perhaps ?
Safe to say - Labour has lost Basildon!
re 412 they didn’t do much investigating - if any at all - the last time I was burgled. I know which crimes the majority of posters on here thing they should be spending their time investigating.
Any more news on charges to elevate the case about Mickey Mouse level?
430. Dacre = not happy about increase in limits on press freedom. Won’t be on board with the Gorgon this time.
397. As far as I’m aware definitely not. Parliament itself is completely separate from the police/cps/etc.
Separation of powers etc.
Evening all.
Lively thread.
I’d like to add just one thing. Whatever the rights or wrongs of this particular case, the political significance, in the longer term, will include bringing back to the public consciousness a major theme in the unpopularity of Labour which we saw last summer: the authoritarian, heavy-handed approach of the police in matters of this kind - which contrasts starkly, in the public mind, with their lackadaisical approach to violent and property crime. Whether the government were directly involved in this particular case or not is irrelevant: Labour created the conditions which brought about this approach.
This is very, very dangerous ground for Labour, which the public had largely forgotten about. They will now be reminded.
Boris would have seen it as a conflict of interest. He couldn’t possibly say or do anything. If it had turned out he obstructed something real [or imaginary] it would have been terrible and wrong. He had to step back and let it take its course.
No option.
If it was a Labour MP then the Home Sec should have done the same. But its an opposition MP her conflict of interest works the other way. She should have used that and her poltical nous in some sort of harmony and asked some searching questions.
If it was a Labour MP Boris should have done the same.
Cameron should open a can of woop ass tomorrow morning if he’s asked about this.
This is classic Labour:
PBR bombs on Monday
Brown bombs on Wednesday
Cammo readies a scathing attack set for Friday…
So they send the gestapo round on the Thursday.
438 - Yes, that it why i would have thought that he would have insisted that the Home Secretary was consulted.
436. The separation of powers? ROFL
The Attorney General sits in the legislature (house of lords) sits in the Cabinet, and is in charge of the Judiciary.
That is the *exact* opposite of ‘Separation of Powers’.
It seems we are getting back to the Gordo of old, every decision he takes..is the wrong one. I don’t believe for a second that he didnt know..
Did Gordon know anything?
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2008/11/a-curious-state.html
438. Sally C
But Easterross posted this @406:
“Michael Crick talking about it on Newsnight and saying could have huge ramifications for Govt and Boris apparently knew beforehand and warned police against it.”
It looks as though Boris did try to influence the investigation in favour of his fellow MP.
There is no speration of powers in this country - it is always the complaint!
433. When the Tories get in we’ll elect our police commissioners, and they will do what we want. And we’ll decide when they’ve succeeded.
437. Very good point.
re 442 I don’t know why we’re debating it as we know Gordon’s a proven liar.
444. Boris isn’t an MP, so how could he have fellow MPs?
Baron von Mandelson’s Waffen Met Police better have a great case against Damien Green, otherwise this will look like the worst kind of political prosecution.
Ugh. Ugh ugh ugh.
Indeed, the chances of this backfiring extremely badly on Labour are so very high, one wonders if this is a devious Tory plan to make the government look like the f*ckers they are.
What larks.
Hell what a change last year on this site the vast majority said the Police were doing a great job on interviewing arresting and cautioning headmasters, lords, businessmen, and prime ministers.
But now they are stormtroopers for arresting a MP.
I wonder why the difference.
Why is a Welsh party on question time when the show is coming from Basildon Sarf Essex rather than south Wales boyo?
446. So you want politicians to have greater control over the police?
444. in favour of his fellow MP.
In case you had not noticed Boris is not an MP = I think Labour lost the deposit in Henley FWIW!
Still no poll then?
403
449. No, they’re just shit.
I can’t help wondering if this has come from some Labour prat.
You know the type - can’t remember the names.
The type who make sleaze allegations against the other party but which always backfire because they remind the public of previous allegations against them and cause a retaliation - the sort of unthinking wally that the leadership really want to gag and lock in the cellar.
Either that or possibly they just turned up at Ms Smith’s door and she thought it was a great opportunity and sat back and smiled not realising the potential implications.
This would be a jury matter. On these facts
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2008/11/damian-green-wa.html
Let me give you just one recent example of how Brown’s careful use of language can give rise to a misleading impression. At PMQs, the day after Barack Obama was elected, most MPs were given the impression that the PM had telephoned Obama and congratulated him. I spoke with a top newspaper political correspondent who was certain this was the case. This is what Brown actually said:
“Before I list my engagements, I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in sending our sincere congratulations to Senator Barack Obama on winning the presidency of the United States and writing a new chapter in history in doing so. The bonds that unite the United States and the UK are vital to our prosperity and security and I know from talking to Senator Obama that he will be a true friend of Britain. The Government look forward to working with the new Administration as we both help people fairly through the downturn. I also want to pay tribute to Senator McCain, who has shown the characteristic dignity that has marked a lifetime of service to his country.”
At the time, it sounded to most people that the “talking” he referred to was very recent - indeed, that is what is implied by using the present continuous tense, rather than saying “when I talked with Obama”. In reality, Brown didn’t speak with Obama for some time after, and was upstaged by Nicolas Sarkozy, much to our PM’s chagrin.
450. Because Labour were CORRUPTING democracy by selling power for money, while Green (as far as we can tell) is BENEFITING democracy by uncovering ineptitute and malfeasance in the Home Office.
It ain’t quantum chromodynamics.
Alexander is not the man to deal with this crowd, somehow I don’t Basildon will be going Labour next time.
451 Yes, a bit odd - but he is very good though.
441. NO. The AG is not involved in the judiciary and can sit in either house. The Lord Chancellor was the head of the judiciary and a government minister and sat in the HoL. Now, after Charlie Falconer’s reforms, the head of the judiciary is the Lord Chief Justice and this is no longer a political position.
452. Read the post again. It’s short.
Isn’t the Met Commissioner still Sir Iain though? I can’t see Boris having much influence
449 seant last year you wanted Anthony Blair locked up, you are at times over partisan.
Just because you are arrested doesn`t make you guilty.
I am surprised Police have taken this action, just as i was over a complaint from the SNP, last year.
This is appalling. None of the stories listed by Mike Smithson have any “national security” defence, the fact that their leak hasn’t compromised national security is proof of that. None of them appear to be untrue: how can leaking the truth be a criminal offence?
Don’t forget that Government is not an independent corporate body in the usual sense: it is merely a proxy for the citizens of this country. It has no rights, it only has duties.
I would probably concede that the government should have the usual sanction open to an employer: it can fire the civil servant responsible if it can find out who it is (with recourse to the usual methods of investigation open to employers, ie not the Met Police).
I see no reason why we should not know
* every word written by a Civil Servant in the course of his duties
* every word committed to electronic media by a Civil Servant in the course of his duties
* every word spoken by a Civil Servant in the course of his duties
It should certainly not be treated as a criminal offence.
What should be done is a list of recent pro-Government leaks should be reported to the Metropolitan Police and, as concerned citizens, we should demand an investigation.
For a Government which manages the news by leak to allow this approach is hypocrisy in the highest degree.
(An alcohol-fuelled rant I’m afraid but on reflection I believe every word I’ve written).
Why was the Mayor of London, by accounts, trying to stop the Police from proceeding with their investigation?
463. No I both misread it and mistyped my response. Apologies.
451. I think it’s because Budget/PBR time is the one time of the year when the BBC actually accept the need for political balance. When the Budget comes round, you’ll notice there’ll be an SNP/Plaid Cymur soundbite included in the main network news report - something that hardly ever happens for any other general Westminster story. It’s tokenism, but I suppose they think we ought to be grateful for it.
441. As with most of the British political machine, it works like that via convention rather than law.
The attorney general is not iirc a member of the cabinet, he can just be called to advice it.
468. Sure. It’s not important.
467 - Which account suggests that then?
466. No. It is undesirable to force every single piece of advice into the open. Full analysis of embarrassing events for a government would not take place if it all then had to put out on display. No government could function efficiently under those sorts of strictures.
I predict that, if Green is not convicted, the Tories will be able to start a major anti-authoritarianism narrative, probably tying in ID cards.
472. See 406.
Well it was either going to be something like this or the sudden breaking of a “terrorist” ring (like last time) to distract from the PBR…
444 But we don’t know what he warned them about. It could be just you better f*ck*ing know what you are doing going into Parliament like that.
Can you deal with it differently? etc.
Doesn’t look like he asked any ‘pertinent’ questions. Which means he didn’t try to compromise of influence the investigation itself.
Process is different to content.
474. Yes, it could work out very well. I was expecting/hoping that to come back during a GE campaign,but this will give it an impetus even while the economic stuff is going on. Osborne made the point that ID cards should have been scrapped to save money on QT. Lots of applause.
I think the odds on Damien Green being charged with anything are remote. If the Govt tried that there would be a huge backlash. Isnt it the job of the CPS to decide if its in the public interest? I am beginning to suspect that this is more about warning off the treasury mole than anything else.
473 Which is why I concede that the Government should be able to apply the usual sanctions available to any other employer.
Although if the range of advice the Government gets before it makes a decision were to be published, I’m not sure why that should be a problem.
The Government should not be able to manage the news narrative. It should be at the mercy of events (and of the citizens: it is our servant).
Anyways after 24 hours the Police will have to charge, Bail or release with no action.
Unless they apply for an extension, initially to a senior officer, then to a judge.
So it should become clearer tommorow.
nice rack in the background on QT
475 - Nope, don’t see an account that says he tried to stop the police from proceeding with their investigation.
Is it my imagination, or does “Major” Martin sound exactly like Darmsetc.?When we have enough posts a word count would tell us- except that it would require some poor devil to read all their tedious posts.
I thought Crick just said that Boris advised against the arrest. You’re not suggesting he was trying to pervert the course of justice, are you?
474 If Green is not convicted?? A jury trial. If its on the facts set out???? Not very likely.
Boris’s office have just released this:
“The Mayor of London has expressed grave concern over the arrest of Conservative frontbencher, Damian Green. Boris johnson, who chairs the Metropolitan Police Authority expressed his concerns - in trenchant terms - ahead of his arrest. A spokesman said the Mayor finds it hard to believe that on the day when terrorist have gone on the rampage in India that anti terror police in Britain have apparently targeted an elected representative of Parliament for no greater crime than allegedly receiving leaked documents. The Mayor told the new acting commissioner of the Met that he would need to see convincing evidence that this action was necessary and proportionate. He suggested that this is not the common sense policing that people want when London faces a real potential terror threat and serious knife crime problem on the streets.”
Via Iain Dale: http://iaindale.blogspot.com/
480. Imagine there is a total disaster in IT procurement. Under your rules, any analysis of it would have to published. The temptation in such a case would then be to whitewash the disaster or not investigate it properly.
485. Josh: “I thought Crick just said that Boris advised against the arrest. You’re not suggesting he was trying to pervert the course of justice, are you?”
If Blair had advised the police not to arrest Levy - what would you think?
Unless the police have something major on Green ie concealing the whereabouts of wanted terrorists or similar, then this will end up playing very badly for Labour, particulalry if someone at minsterial level knew in advance (which given Bozza did is likely).
It’s clear that this isn’t a political arrest and those Tories comparing Labour to ZANU PF are doing a massive injustice to the suffering of the Zimbabwean people, by trivialising it in this childish way. But it is clear that Labour’s acres of authoritarian, kneejerk and plain wrong legislation has emboldened the police to such an extent to think they are either above the law or they have lost all perpesctive.
488 If there is a total disaster in IT procurement it would cost the taxpayer millions. Or hundreds of millions. We should be told every sordid detail. If we can find out, there will have to be an investigation. If the Government can get away with not letting us know… it will whitewash it. Your argument is arse about face.
On Boris.
I know we all think we live in a police state -
but there is NO NEED TO ARREST A MAN WHO WILL COME TO THE POLICE STATION WILLINGLY.
You can still administer a caution before interview. You can arrest them if they try to walk out. Labour posters who are accusing Tories of jumping the gun and making accusations without though should take some of their own advise.
Boris will have known Green would have gone willingly.
i was inside a home office reception centre for illegal immigrants today. bloody shambles the home office are. half the people on the desks looked like illegal immigrants themselves. i bet there is all sorts of corruption going on, big time. we are living in a police state if this stuff is covered up.
Edison - no, even if you want to bother with this sort of detialed textual analysis, it doesn’t bear the interpretation you give it. Brown is obviously referring to previous conversations - Obama would hardly on election night settle down for a chat about how he felt about Britain.
That was the worst QT I have seen for the government. The audience were actually laughing at Alexander when he came out with the Labour spin lines.
Perhaps NickP can tell us - if no chargeable offence has been committed, would Green be able to request a Speaker’s enquiry into the affair? Would not this be very serious for anyone shown to have committed a breach of Parliamentary privelege? Are there precedents?
492 … and might have objected to nine men arresting a man who would have come willingly.
488 - extraordinarily poor example if you don’t mind me saying Ken. When have govts ever learnt lessons from IT failures? I agree with you though!
484 Correct. The Major and Darmstandium are one and the same.
Memo to Labour: don’t arrest opposition politicians when they are merely advancing democracy, it looks ever-so-slightly…. you know…. *cough*…. Mugabe.
492. Sally C
You seem to be suggesting that because the Mayor knew Green personally, the police should treat Green differently to any other suspect.
Why?
alex as so often is on the money. What on earth is going on when Boris knows about the arrest but the PM doesn’t? There seems to be two possibilities.
Firstly that the police are building up their part because that’s what they like to do in the new celebrity culture. Remember the circus around cash for titles?
The alternative is that they arrested this civil servant and he landed Green in it big time. For instance he was collecting information to order. If this is the case then he will likely be prosecuted.
All governments have people working for them who disagree with some of the things they do and leak details to the opposition. All oppositions make use of the information. All governments get cross about this, and order leak inquiries. But it is unprecedented in Britain if, as appears to have happened now, a senior opposition politician has been arrested over such a leak.
When the Conservatives were last in power, many members of the then shadow cabinet, including Gordon Brown, quoted from leaked information. It was said of the late Robin Cook in particular, by one Conservative minister, that he seemed “to have an inexhaustible supply of stolen documents.”
But I’ll tell you this. If Robin Cook had been arrested for allegedly releasing leaked documents from the then Conservative government, I am convinced that half the Tory MPs who grumbled about him would have been instantly on the phone to the then Home Secretary Michael Howard, demanding that charges be dropped before Britain was made to look like some sort of authoritarian banana republic.
And I think it even more likely that some of the Labour posters and sympathisers on this thread who have been apologising for the government over the arrest of Damien Green would, had Robin Cook been arrested over leaked documents in 1996 and if they had been around at the time, have been shouting from the rooftops that Michael Howard was running a police state.
492 Sallyc. The police as you say arrest by appointment at the Police Station on many occasions.
As you remember many argued that last year regarding the allegations of cash for honours.
It didn`t get much sympathy on here.
The police argument is that they need to seize evidence, without the possibility of it been destroyed.
492 On the contrary.
You do not know much about the police if you think they need to send 9 anti-terror officers to arrest man who would have gone to the police station if one had turned up and asked him.
They rarely spend resources on this way. If they did it might explain why the Home Office documents in question reveal such Home Office ineptitude.
“The police argument is that they need to seize evidence, without the possibility of it been destroyed.”
Which would be fine, if it weren’t for the fact that Green was at his house in Kent and they raided his Westminster office.
Fraser Nelson on Damien Green
Part of me hopes there is more to Green’s arrest than this. I don’t want to think I live in a country where anyone, far less opposition politicians, can get banged up for scrutinising the government in this way. And what will the public think tomorrow morning: “naughty Mr Green” or “what kind of police state is this?” No wonder No10 is stressing that Gordon Brown had “no prior knowledge” of what looks like calamitously heavy-handed policing. This could end up being a disaster for him.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3047996/a-scary-use-of-police-time.thtml
I was out for 2 hours, and now there are more than 400 comments!
505. I assume that most of the 9 officers were sent there to do the search, not only to arrest him.
Part of ‘An Alternative History of Great Britain, 1939-1999′ which I am writing:
November, 1937: Arrest of Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill was arrested by officers of the Metropolitan Police and his offices at the House of Commons and at his home at Chartwell in Kent were searched. Apparently, Mr Chamberlain and his government had been furious about a series of leaks on the ill-preparedness of the national defences, which they believe have been leaked to Mr Churchill by a mole operating within the Ministry of Defence. However, a spokesman at No.10 stated at the time that the Prime Minister had no prior knowledge of this police action. However, as we now know from ministerial diaries and private letters ….
502. No. There is a third alternative: this arrest is (as far as we know) so ludicrous, counterproductive and controversial, it has been engineered by ANTI-Labour elements within the police - to make the government look bad.
Is that why Bojo was tipped off?
Who knows. Anyway, unless there is serious evidence against Green, this is potentially calamitous for the government, as it reinforces the whole lying Zanu-Labour ID-card 42 days anti-liberty memetics.
505 - Yes, anti-terrorism officers are required when looking through bits of paper is involved.
Diane Abbott just saying she doesn’t believe the Police will have done this without “Political Cover” agrees with Portillo that Civil Servants have been leaking like this since the photocopier was invented.
491 - I agree with Ken. The options considered by any government cannot be made public at the time when a decision is under active ocnsideration, or when it is just made. Advice has to be candid. It has to be based on information which might have national security implications, or might just be highly sensitive. “Open government” rarely means a greater insight into power; it just means power recedes further into the wings. Parliament, and its Select Committees, should be allowed to demand any information they like, but responsible use is everything. It is very easy for anybody reporting a complex story about IT procurement to focus on one angle which is damaging but irrelevant; then the whole focus of the political world will be about resolving the story rather than the actual problem. Governments (of any stripe) are not all-powerful when it comes to media management. We should be careful about tipping the balance further against them. (I’m shocked by DG’s arrest, BTW).
the main thing is how this wil play with the press, and I cannot see them doing anything other than standing four square behind Green. Every paper has published leaked stories. The ones that printed Green’s leaks have to stand behind their benefactor. The others won’t have much of a choice either if they want to use leaked documents in future, and they will all want to since any leaked document is an instant no effort story and often a good one as Green’s were.
Boris knew so Jacqui Smith will have know, and so will Brown. When it leaks that they did know (and it will) their denials now are going to blow up in their faces. The Dark Lord must be absolutely cursing the police; all of his good work attacking George Osborne this summer is about to get trashed.
This is going to play very very badly for Labour, I’m glad I’ve been buying tory seats!
502 ‘Remember the circus around cash for titles?’
Roger, how can we forget . A classic example of whitewash.
503 Chris, that’s a sober and balanced view of the situation (unlike mine!)
So, what’s wrong with asking DG to report to a police station at an agreed time to answer some questions? Surely that’s how it usually works with this sort of thing?
So I take it that there aren’t any accounts that say Boris tried to stop the police from proceeding with their investigation.
496: clearly Mr Green can ask the Speaker to investigate anything he thinks was a breach of Parliamentary privilege. I still don’t know enough about the incident to have an opinion on whether there was such a breach.
I note that Boris’s comment suggests that Mr Green merely received the documents, and by implication wasn’t involved in how they got to him. I’d think a good deal depends on whether that’s the case, as well as what he did when he received them. Merely being sent stolen documents is not an offence.
504 I accept that you don’t want an opportunity to destroy evidence. A surprise is fine.
9 officers is overkill and many members of the public who have had trouble getting a response form the police might share my opinion.
Its them you will have to convince.
You won’t convince me.
I see and know first hand the issues the police have with resources. So far the policemen I know think the anti terror officers look like prize prats - though they put it down to them being southerners.
508 And you better read all 400 of them - there’ll be a written test later.
505. 9 Police Officers in one place at one time would be a complete shift in most towns!
504 David, I was generalising regarding when Police arrest by appointment.
I have no knowledge regarding this case.
It was in answer to Sallyc in why they do what they do when people are willing to attend the Police station on a voluntary basis.
Damian Green is the new Walter Wolfgang.
BTW, the Tories have gained what is normally a safe seat in Walsall, boo hiss.
“Brown “did not know about Damian Green”"
“Downing Street say the first they or the Prime Minister knew about Damian Green’s involvement in this investigation, and his arrest, was when the news broke earlier this evening. They were aware of the leak inquiry, but are keen to scotch any suggestion that the Met acted with the prior knowledge of No10.
Last I heard Mr Green was still banged up on suspicion of “conspiring to commit misconduct in a public office, and aiding and abetting counselling or procuring misconduct in a public office.” Damian Green may be a Tory, but he is above all a Member of Parliament. We should reserve judgement until we know the facts, but if it is true that the Met thought it right to send nine counter-terrorism officers to burst in on the home of an MP, then Scotland Yard and the Home Office better put their seatbelts on.”
http://broganblog.dailymail.co.uk/2008/11/brown-did-not-k.html
Boris was probably informed by the Met police out of courtesy and so that he wouldn’t find out in the media and be embarrassed. I don’t think there will be anything more complicated than that on the Boris angle.
Sky reporting released on bail till February
Front pages
re 525;
Nick, that’s very public-spirited of you to pass on such (for you)distressing information.
519 Because Labour MPs never got the benefits of leaks when they were in opposition.. Do us all favour.
Hard work for Labour spinners on here tonight.
525 - Yes, by 103 votes as revealed by the legendary Andrea on Vote 2007 to which he has disgracefully defected.
522 ‘9 Police Officers in one place at one time would be a complete shift in most towns!’
Most towns? In the whole of West Wiltshire, west of Devizes I’d be suprised if there were that many on duty at night time . That’s what, half a County? The picture’s the same across the UK.
525. It does amuse me the way you talk about Tories!
It reminds me of that film “carry on up the kyber” and the *devils in skirts* where they don’t wear underwear! One glimpse of a devils member! oh Tories!
This is from the Nightjack Blog, by a serving police officer. This is to all those such as Roger who have been complaining of over-reaction by ‘Tories’:
For this and a few other reasons, I am now pretty sure that although I did not join the Stasi, we are in fact being used as such by politicians looking to settle grudges just like the Evil Poor on the Cannonrail Estate. On the emerging facts of the arrest of the shadow immigration minister, this feels like one of those pointless, petty and spiteful “My exes’ new partner’s mate has been harassing me by text” situations. Jacqui Klebb (our boss) has been getting a lot of embarassing flack from some leaks to the Tories. Cut to an unwelcome but deeply persuasive phone call or meeting in person for some compliant A.C.P.O. rank with orders to pull the pin on the leaker on the benches opposite. Next thing you know 9 of our finest are knocking on the poor political bastard’s door, carting him off for interview and searching his home and offices.
Maybe I’m wrong and maybe this Tory politician has done some act to strike at the fundamentals of our parliamentary democracy. I suspect it is nothing that Jacqui and every other politician are not bang at 24/7.
http://nightjack.wordpress.com/2008/11/27/now-i-know/
525 Canny folk, those Midlanders….
And this is his own reply to a commenter:
Take it from me, from personal knowledge, from time to time arrests are ordered. In theory so long as there is a fig leaf of potential alleged criminality sufficient to justify and arrest, then an arrest can be in effect ordered.
514 “Advice has to be candid. It has to be based on information which might have national security implications, or might just be highly sensitive.”
“Might have” national security implications? Well, if it does, that should obviously be treated differently to the 99.99% of stuff that doesn’t. Although, we do need to know if the Government is doing anything which puts our security at risk.
“might just be highly sensitive” you mean it might embarrass the government? In which case we should know about it.
We now know that the Government considered putting VAT up to 18.5%. In what way does this have national security implications? Why should the fact that this information is abroad lead to arrest and possible conviction?
If this leads to arrests, why not the weekend’s leaks of the VAT and 45% tax proposals? Surely ministers should be under constant police investigation!
As I said, the government should have no more than the sanctions available to any other employer available to it.
Tam Dalyell is a case in point: Clive Ponting, acting anonymously, sent him documents related to the Belgrano affair. Dalyell thought that if he gave the documents to Sir Anthony Kershaw, the then Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, he would then raise the matter in Parliament. Sir Anthony passed the documents to the MoD instead, who identified and arrested Ponting. Ponting was acquitted, and I strongly suspect Damian Green would be too (although it’s almost certainly not going to go that far).
Nick Palmer. Thank you (bet you didn’t expect that!).
First!
ps. Disgraceful behaviour from Labour and Ian Blair.
9 Anti-Terrorist Officers for an MP regarding information regarding immigration?!?
This was also coordinated for the Parliament break and while focus is on the Bombay attacks. Utterly despicable.
When we rid ourselves of Tyrannical Incompetent Labour Jackboots, the laws must changed to prevent such abuse of power.
And what if it turns out that the person leaking the documents has leaked documents containing information on immigrants who are under surveilance because they are suspected of plotting terrorist attrocities, but the police have not enough evidence to arrest them?
What if it transpires that Damien Green has these particular documents? Would that not justify the police taking the action they have taken, in order to retrieve these documents and prevent the risk of them ending up in the public domain via a leak to a newspaper?
I am not for one minute suggesting this IS the case. The point I am making is that there are so many people on here being judgmental without knowing even half the facts.
Sally C. I agree with you that any number more than one is a waste of police manpower because he would go voluntarily. I made the same point on here when four policemen were sent round to Tony Blair’s PA’s house at six AM. It made no sense but the vast majority on here thought it only reasonable that she should be treated ‘like a common criminal’
Am I the only one who immediately thought of the “Yes Minister” line about Whitehall’s favourite irregular verb?
“I” give a confidential press briefing.
“You” leak.
“He” has been charged under the official secrets act.
520 Sallyc I am not trying to convince anybody regarding Police action.
I agree members of the public would agree with your opinion.
But it seems especially on this site the Police are applauded if its Labour personell arrested and derided if Conservative.
Green now bailed according to Beeb online
First!
As Damian Green has been arrested by anti-terrorist police, can someone tell me how long he can be held without charge?
Frank Skinner:
You may despair at his naivety when he admits to voting Labour purely ‘out of a sense of working class duty’.
http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/displayProductDetails.do?sku=3550469
Nice balance on this week - another rich socialist talking b*ll*cks!
537 He’s got a point. The top coppers [ACPO] relying on getting a Home Office ranking when they go up for interview.
If you believe standing your ground against the Home Office might cost you [rightly or wrongly] would you? I say this as someone who mixes with ACPO ranks.
There are certainly high ranking and low ranking officers who think some muppets got promotion by being too ‘accommodating’.
574: three months, if this government had its way.
542 - I would suspect in that case, documents with clear security implications an MP would willingly turn them over. In any case the need for an arrest is limited.
Even being leaked such documents could have clear public interest implications though. If for example there were concerns that such people were not being adequately monitored.
The circumstances in which an MP should be arrested in this situation are very extreme. It’s not impossible that they have arisen but to have taken this step they need to be of that level.
545 There is a strong case to answer if Peerages and Political Positions were sold. Certainly political donors were given ministerial jobs. That is a FACT. It certainly requires investigation if only to clear the names of those involved.
The Damian Green arrest looks like jackbooted Mugabe intimidation politics.
Why are they different and what is the common factor? Labour pulling the strings.
543. AGAIN - there’s a huge difference. Labour were accused of secretly perverting the entire political system, by selling power and peerages. The police were right to swoop, as the accusations were so serious - and aimed at the government.
Green has just been RECEIVING information in a manner long accepted as an entirely legitimate part of Opposition (who are otherwise powerless). He surely doesn’t deny the “allegation” - it’s a matter of opinion whether he has acted legally.
Enormous difference.
First !
547 - usual period. He was arrested for a “normal” offence just (apparently) by anti-terrorism officers.
When the next government gets into office, they must investigate some for abuse of power.
543. Indeed Roger, why was she treated in such a way? Sadly it now seems to be the common practice to deal with such matters in this way, and has been for some years. Maybe it’s time for all on either side of the political spectrum to say that enough is enough and take a cross party stand against such actions? In the past, under certain regimes around the world you could have been arrested in your capacity as a film director - can you find your conscience now and do something about it?
555 How long?
538 Although, we do need to know if the Government is doing anything which puts our security at risk.
We are simply not in a position to judge that: if you are taking decisions related to national security, they cannot be discussed publicly without significantly reducing their significance. After all, terrorists and foreign spies will be reading, watching and listening too. The dangers are obvious, and have been a cause for worry several times since the Cold War really got under way, but responsible oversight is better than the ineffective oversight which would be created by open scrutiny.
In which case we should know about it.
I don’t see why. A government should be allowed to consider plans which are going to be embarassing, or highly unpleasant, in private. If governments are stopped, then plans which are necessary but unpleasant will be kept off the radar for as long as possible, and even more government will be focused on media management. One of the reasons that our government makes bad decisions now is that Cabinets, particularly since the first Wilson govenrment in the 1960s, have become so leaky that sensitive issues aren’t discussed there. Decisions, in these circumstances, are made by sofa government and away from civil service minuters, which is not a gain for society.
By “sensitive”, BTW, I also mean things like confidential information the government may analyse in the course of events, like personal tax or medical records or important commercial secrets of major British companies.
I think this should see Liberals moving to the Tories as the best way to oust the Zanu-Labour thugs.
Roger. I accept your point about the 6am raid. I felt it was odd at the time.
But there is an extra dimension here. Then they were arresting members of the Gov apparatus. This looks like they are arresting on the orders or in the interests of it [rightly or wrongly].
The implications are far far greater and someone should have realised that.
559 We can know - what terrorists would know - that Anti-Terrorist police aren’t chasing terrorists, they are chasing Political Opponents.
Just as Criminals know that Police are chasing Christians, Children and OAPs.
540 - No indeed. Are you feeling all right?
552 Guido has the comparsion
Very Savvy of Huhne to turn up on this week!
Alternatively, it should see liberal-minded Conservatives moving towards the Liberal Democrats.
(Have not read down all the thread yet, so apologies if someone has thought of this before)
There is no statute of limitations in English law, either generally or in relation to deception, and a substantial mortgage fraud would usually result in a custodial sentance. Cameron should make it clear that amongst his first acts as PM will be to instruct the Commissioner of the Met to blow the dust of the file on Mandy’s obviously fraudulent mortgage application with a view to the pressing of serious criminal charges.
Or maybe he has registered the intention already and Mandy is just getting his retaliation in first.
(Have not read down all the thread yet, so apologies if someone has thought of this before)
There is no statute of limitations in English law, either generally or in relation to deception, and a substantial mortgage fraud would usually result in a custodial sentance. Cameron should make it clear that amongst his first acts as PM will be to instruct the Commissioner of the Met to blow the dust of the file on Mandy’s obviously fraudulent mortgage application with a view to the pressing of serious criminal charges.
Or maybe he has registered the intention already and Mandy is just getting his retaliation in first.
385 “If official documents are confidential, it is an offence to be part of an attempt to disclose them. The degree of offence depends on how actively one is involved - I wouldn’t think that merely receiving them is an offence.”
Can we expect Labour and BBC reporters to be arrested for the same offences?
Perhaps we will have to wait till Labour is out.
563 Given the reason for the Labour councillor’s resignation the result should not have been such a surprise .
Amazing consensus between Portillo and (more stridently) Abbott and Huhne over the madness of arresting Green. Very interestingly, Abbott saying it’s inconceivable the police would have taken such action without Government authorisation/encouragement.
562 that Anti-Terrorist police aren’t chasing terrorists, they are chasing Political Opponents.
There isn’t a trade-off between the two….
Trying to pursue Green is a stupid act by the police. I can’t believe ministers would be so idiotic as actually encourage the arrest, as there is no way such an arrest would look good for the government. It’s unlikely to get to court, and Green will be triumphantly acquitted if he gets that far. It’s so self-defeating it makes no political sense.
The fact they did it on Blair’s last day is just bizarre.
Do they want it to look as bad as possible?
559 What if, for example, the Government cut back on a vital resource (maybe anti-terrorist police officers) and told no-one about it. You could argue that to reveal this would be in th interests of terrorists. However, without revealing it, the Government is unlikely to ever fix it.
“A government should be allowed to consider plans which are going to be embarassing, or highly unpleasant, in private. If governments are stopped, then plans which are necessary but unpleasant will be kept off the radar for as long as possible, and even more government will be focused on media management.”
But the “embarassing, or highly unpleasant” plans are going to have to be put into place at some time… and will then become public. I don’t see why secrecy about the advice they got at the time helps in any way. Unless they got it wrong of course… in which case they won’t want us to knoe that someone gave them the correct advice, and they ignored it.
In my view, the fact that the four stories allegedly at the centre of this story are in the public domain, is an unalloyed public good. Would you disagree?
Of course I support data protection and protection of personal privacy. There is no suggestion that that has been breached in this case.
572. All such conundrums can be solved by the application of the principle: Labour are shit. 22.5% of the electorate don’t care.
569. Goes to show how you have to take these by election results with a pinch of salt.
553 Seant take the partisan blinkers off, and let some light in.
A headmaster said he could pull some strings to a journalist .
The police arrest him over some alledged comments and bail him for over a year.
At the time you thought it was fantastic, no though for the blokes career and life.
You need to wake up.
571 The Police would have covered their backsides, and checked all the way up the line before they hauled in a Shadow Minister. It’s such a sensitive issue, the Home Secretary would certainly have been informed, and passed on to the PM as a courtesy. Utter nonsense to suggest otherwise.
Now the savagery of the posting has dropped off a little, i would like to take the opportunity of registering my vote in the ‘most distatstful remark of the evening’ category for the pleasantly phrased post at 283.
re 572;
The only thing that worries me about this whole thing, from a Tory perspective, is that it appears to have been dealt with so cack-handedly by the police and/or the government that it seems inconceivable they would act in just such a foolish and transparently political way.
Surely even Ian Blair and/or Brown aren’t THAT incompetent.
572 Sally, It wasn’t his last day at the Met just his last meeting of the MPA. He still has a few days left.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/nov/27/ian-blair-boris
558 - Max is 96 hours - Magistrates approval required for more than 36.
578. This one?
263. Thank god you were not a jew in 1940’s germany Mark, you would probably have asked for some soap as they took you to the showers!
by Martin Day November 27th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
563 I think there had been a fairly strong Tory vote there and I assume that the long standing female Labour councillor stood down through ill health. Having said that, given recent local election results which have not been so good for the Tories, I was surprised, even if NP isn’t!
I know from bitter personal experience that when a long standing councillor retires then his personal vote goes with him or her, even in a supposedly safe ward.
A question to all those ranting about stalinism, the stasi, Mugabe, etc.
If we live in a police state rather than a democracy, why do so many people believe it will be damaging to the government? Surely our totalitarian overlords are immune to criticism?
Interesting how many bloggers on other sites are putting the “boot in”. The suggestion is that although Mandy and Alastair C started this it is the Home Office that have given cover to the police. Should we be speculating on who the next Home Secretary is?
The Times reckons its a lesson to all moles. Have they decided its worth the bad press?
Wouldn’t surprise me.
But what of the press. Take it lying down? Its not exactly in their interests.
How many of them would be liable for a dawn raid fir doing the same thing?
They will bide their time. See if there is more to it. If there are no other ‘big deal’ leaks, then go for it.
580 Fair enough. It’s still too close for comfort.
585 David Davis?
582. yes, lovely isnt it
582 You must be very young or childish to repost that rubbish.
576. The Labour government sold peerages for “loans”. Does anyone seriously believe otherwise? This is a perversion of our democracy, which should be sorted. I’d have said the same if the Tories were caught doing this (and I am sure they have done - they just weren’t caught).
But the Labour case was especially egregious as Blair promised to be “whiter than white”, and because Blair brought in legislation to amend the practise WHICH LABOUR THEN THEMSELVES SIDESTEPPED.
Yuk.
The Green case is wholly different. Whistleblowers and leaks are a vital part of democracy.
I’m not being partisan. I now think there is something uniquely and disgustingly rotten at the heart of this Labour government.
They remind me of a binbag I once forgot to throw out. It began to stink, really badly - and when I went to dump it, the whole thing collapsed, and maggots poured out.
This Labour government is a bingbag that should have been chucked years ago. They’ve gone beyond your average garbagey noxiousness.
Maggots are eating away at the core.
Gnite!
578. Maybe you find it distastful but but it makes a point to someone who says he is ‘Liberal’: Why be complient to what the state wants? If so you could be imperelled.
I will give you another example, in the cold war the public information broadcasts were prepared to warn people to stay in their own home. This was not for the safety of the people but to make sure sufficient numbers were killed in a nuclear strike that life on limited resources and little accomadation could continue. Governments are not good and they do not have “Billy whizz’s” interest at heart but managing the numbers and the problems.
589 I have family who did take that walk to the showers. At least Martin Day is standing up for something - at the end of the day they’re only words
Goodnight all.
This should be a big story.
If it isn’t - we have a problem.
On the other hand…LibDems gain a Cambs county seat from the Tories. Agree with woody that one has to be careful with drawing conclusions from single council results - especially if we don’t know the area.
Whoa, I leave work early for an evening at the movies and look what happens…
592. Martin Day, I agree with your point, and the way it was originally put.
Anti terroist legislation used to extradite the Nat West bankers to the US,to seize Icelandic bank assets and now to arrest an MP.
So much for those government assurances that the legoslation would not be abused.
There have always been leaks yes but we don’t know the facts or the allegations from the civil servant involved.
If Green has paid for the information, or worse still leaned on this individual in some way and thereby destroyed his creer then that is overstepping the mark. If there is such an allegation - basically bribery orblackmail -then it MUST be investigated fully and properly. The hysterical partisanship from the Tories on here does a disservice to everyone involved. Total hypocrisy when we know full well you would be in ecstasy if it had been a Labour member that had been detained.
683 It was a male councillor who stood down following his arresat for alleged child pornography .
Cambs CC Hardwick LibDem gain from Conservative
LibDem 1369 Con 1169 Lab 208
2005 result Con 2168 LibDem 1855 Lab 786 Green 438
i do find it fairly repellant. because the most serious this issue can possibly become is that the government, if involved have behaved like idiots and will reap the consequences. they clearly are not behaving like people who intend to construct a national infrastructure with the purpose of efficiently shiping 6 million people into gas chambers on the basis of their race. implying any kind of moral equivalance is stupid (which i dont mind) but also distasteful, which i suppose i do
The ‘conspiracy’ word comes from Sky I think, but the statement from the Tories - the only authoritative one so far- says “He was detained on suspicion of aiding or procuring misconduct in public office.” That is not conspiracy which is, as far as I know, a different offence.
599 What allegation, nobody serious is claiming this, it is just a Labour spin fantasy.
However, without revealing it, the Government is unlikely to ever fix it.
Depends on the oversight. The Intelligence and Security Committee would be able to complain, and possibly ventilate the matter by raising it on Privy Council terms. And I’m certainly not, by any means, arguing that parliamentary privilege of any sort should be tampered with, which is why the arrest of Green is so shocking. MPs should be able to use anything they receive in the course of their duties, although the sender would do it at their own risk - and I think it’s highly unlikely that Opposition MPs wouldn’t find out about your example through one channel or another on an unofficial basis.
But the “embarassing, or highly unpleasant” plans are going to have to be put into place at some time… and will then become public.
Not necessarily. Worst-case ultra-secret plans like ROBOT in 1952 and BRUTUS in 1968, detailing emergency plans in case of a really dramatic fall in sterling necessitating effective British default, were drawn up, and approved provisionally by high-level Cabinet Committees, but never used. Had news of their details, like bans on luxury imports, been leaked at the time, the fall in sterling they were designed to deal with would almost certainly have occured. But, even where plans are designed to come into place, it’s important that their scope and extent is determined by the necessities of the plan, not the public reaction to the worst-case scenario.
Unless they got it wrong of course… in which case they won’t want us to knoe that someone gave them the correct advice, and they ignored it.
But a lot depends on why the government got it wrong. A government is entitled to consider a lot of things, including its own chances of re-election, when making a decision. Looking, as I have done in the PRO, at the way government decisions evolve, I can’t see how you can present the information government takes in to evolve policies fairly. It’s a long and very involved process which goes through a variety of stages. Simply tracking the proper development of a policy through to draft legislative stage would take more time and resources than most media sources would spare - even if they employ dedicated and experienced Whitehall sources like David Hencke. All you get is a slant; and slanted views warp good policy.
Would you disagree?
Yes. They do not give us fair representations of the policy, but are only snapshots presented by sources with a particular angle on the story.
601 Think again my friend.
599 You don’t get it do you? The issue is NOT that it was a Labour or Tory MP.
Its that fact it is the arrest of an OPPOSITION MP possibly orchestrated by the GOVERNMENT.
Doh!
Liberal Democrat win by-election. Cambridge voters react to arrest of shadow cabinet member Damian Green!
This arrest is such a gift to those who enjoy seeing this Labour government shooting itself in the foot, and, usefully, to those who see the police as in need of drastic overhaul … in the direction of allocating resources/manpower in the direction (that is, outside the station and onto the streets for a start) desired by the majority of the public. The police always seem to have massive resources available for high publicity arrests - Matthew Kelly (B’ham Repertory Theatre), Mrs Harry Redknapp (Bournemouth), and now, Damien Green. Sickening.
Meanwhile…are the Tories going to assail public sector pensions, or not?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2008/nov/27/pensions-conservatives
I keep reading on here the suggestion that Green blackmailed, bribed, intimidated or tricked the leaker to hand over the docs. Do we really think that’s likely, or are there just a lot of flustered Labourites about willing it to be the case?
609 Probably depends on whether we can even afford socks by the time you lot are out.
610. The later, who need to be careful what they say.
Nick, I swear to high heaven that Labour announced some time ago an expensive and worrying process to sell off the post office card accounts. This was then cancelled - I presume after a lot of ground work had been done - because it was unpopular and stupid.
This is U-turn. What Cameron may or may not do in 1/2 years time is not.
609 Convenient sidetrack - is it really as important Mr Palmer? What would happen if they hauled you in for a chat on the same charges? Would that be OK?
609 Wot like Gordon raped private sector ones.
510 It is the justification that one of them invented upthread, certainly no one else is suggesting it.
605. Meaning you seriously want to suggest that they are?
615 But its interesting how many sought to repeat it.
Sally C
I think you need to chill out and have a large G&T.I am sure you can afford that.
606 An allegation you have no evidence whatsoever!
So in your world no opposition MP could ever be arrested then? Even if they bribed an official? Or blackmailed an official? Or threatened an official? DOUBLE DUH!
Anyone who says it’s an over reaction or unfair to compare this to Mugabe, Stalin, Hitler et al. needs to read a history book. None those crazed dictators started out the way they finished. They evolved through several small steps that consolidated their power over the people and any opposition. This is just one more step by Labour to use the police as their political enforcers. Boris was told by the Met before the arrest was executed and he objected. That means without a shred of doubt that Jacqui Smith was also told. There is no way the Met would do this without political cover which means Jacqui Smith consented. What we don’t know is if she consulted Brown (and we probably never will if she has to fall on her sword).
609 The Labour approach is clear.
Add unfounded allegations to muddy the water.
Have a go at Boris.
Change the subject.
This is cover up of ‘incompetent immigration’ matter and a civil liberties one - the issue will unite an odd mix.
616 A physical infrastructure? No. A legal infrastructure? We’re already there.
606 in our world we have murders and rapists. Doesn’t mean you are in order inventing suggestions that someone has done such things off the top of your head.
519. Has the MP been charged with bribery, blackmail Or threatening behaviour to my knowledge not.
He was arrested and charged for having leaked information. Labour have not got a leg to stand on, this was a political arrest. This country has today learched one step closer to a zimbawe state of affairs.
If the Tories are going to slash the pensions of 5m public service workers I reckon that will be a far bigger deal that anything labour did to private pensions.
Anyway, I think NHS workers should be made to vote labour. Without labour there would be no NHS and private health provisions would leave millions, like me,buggered for health care.
625 And you tell me to chill out.
sorry 628 not 625
620. they would have to be a bit careful about which history book they read though wouldnt they. they would for example have to avoid any that mentioned that Hitler wrote Mein Kampf years before he came to power describing exactly what his world view was and any that pointed out that the Lenin and Stalin spent years in opposition explicitly planning how they would destroy the social elements that would prevent the bolsheviks achieving their goals.
I agree some of the bad guys learn on the job, but i dont think Hitler and Stalin are very good examples, they took power all fired up and ready to go and they hit the ground running.
EdP at 513: I can’t answer your question without speculating on what, if anything, Mr Green is thought to have done. Nobody is ever happy to be quizzed by the police, but I wouldn’t claim to be immune. It’s clearly an important issue, but I’m not sure we can get much further until we know more facts.
610 Icarus.
Liberal Democrats win or Liberal Democrat wins old chap…..
625. valleyboy:Without labour there would be no NHS and private health provisions would leave millions, like me,buggered for health care.
[citation needed]
629 Sally C, I’ve never told you to chill out. I think you’re addressing the wrong person.
631, oops, that should have pointed to 623. - must be bed time
Meanwhile, is there a word for someone who claims in an early post (possibly even their first, though I’d have to go back and verify) that they are a Conservative supporter, any yet their subsequent posts are most notable for their criticism of the Tories?
“…needing more time to make the hard decisions to help hard-working families and to continue to lead the World out of the difficult economic circumstances we face, I have today decided, in the interests of stability, using the powers in the civil contingencies act, to extend the lifetime of this Parliament for an intitial period of one year….”
635. EdP: oops, that should have pointed to 623. - must be bed time
Some posts have been released from moderation. Always name the person to whom you’re replying and ideally quote the relevant passage
ValleyBoy - If the NHS played football, they’d play like Charlton Athletic.
I post here at least semi-regualrly.I make no qualms of the fact I am a partisna,who as a member,and for many other reasons,would stillvote Labour if there were a general election tomorrow.
)
Some of you may have noticed that Martin Day and I chat in a friendly way,despite our political differences.FWIW,whilst post 283 could be classed ‘a trifle fruity’,I nonetheless do NOT see the PC ‘censor everythig’ interventions.
(FWIW,in early 2005 I watched on UK GOld an epiosde of ‘Till Death Us Do Part’ from c.1972-the lines spoken would,in today’s society get you arrested.I was rolling on my lounge floor,howling,crying with laughter,at a very well-put-together comedy.Down with political correctness-from an old-school Labourite!
Just to clarify something before I go to bed. When Gordon Brown let it leak out that he was considering giving everyone the equivalent of £1,000 in their pockets from the PBR, that was okay, yeah?
632 Thanks for the response Mr P. I’m very concerned about the way in which the police appear to have handled this, and regardless of my own beliefs would be equally troubled were an elected representative holding an opposite political view to mine be detained under similar circumstances.
637 If you are referring to the posts by GeorgeH he is certainly a Conservative and a PPC who posts infrequently on here .
Did we lose about a hundred posts?
Anyway, Frank Skinner was dreadful on This Week. First off, yet again the producers give us a left wing Take of the Week. Balance? What’s that?
But his arguments were pathetic. “A 45p rate is good because it makes lazy c*nts like me who can’t be arsed to give to charity the chance to feel some absolution over our selfishness.” You know, Frank, some of us do give to charity and we earn a heck of a lot less than you. And I’m sure that those vulnerable people who do need our philanthropy feel better knowing that you are getting a better night’s sleep because Gordon Brown has absolved you of responsibility for actually doing something for those people you worry about.
The really laughable thing is that if he earns £150k in a good year, he won’t be paying much of any tax in the 45p band.
Maybe he was just doing a sketch, a parody of chattering class vanity.
625 valleyboy . “Without labour there would be no NHS. . .”
Correct.
“. . . and private health provisions would leave millions, like me,buggered for health care.”
Incorrect. We could have a system such as those set up by many of our European neighbours. A system set up on EXACTLY THE SAME PRINCIPLES THAT THE FOUNDING FATHERS OF THE NHS WANTED(excuse the capitals but it does need emphasis), but based on a different method of going about it.
I admire what the NHS is trying to achieve, but I don’t think that a centralized, beaurocratic mess like the health system that we have is the answer. Socialized medicine - YES….NHS - No.
As for earlier developments: Dead giveaway. Damn morpher.
On Martin Day’s post 283, whilst it might be a little exaggerated (and we all know what Martin’s like), those who are criticising it are falling into the trap he is warning against.
642 Quite right..
Whilst actually putting up Petrol, Ciggies, Alcohol and Concealing future rises in VAT all of which are disgustingly socially regressive taxes.
646 Sorry - numbers appeared to change. Addressed to 628.
543 - EdP - yes, fair enough. I’ve not critcised Mr Green in any way, but I don’t have enough information to comment sensibly at all at the moment.
637 LS, yes there is such a word. Astroturfer
644. Mark “soon to owe a gold sovereign” Senior: If you are referring to the posts by GeorgeH he is certainly a Conservative and a PPC who posts infrequently on here .
No. This person first appeared within the last two weeks, IIRC.
On the Cambridgeshire by-election:
Cambs CC Hardwick LibDem gain from Conservative
LibDem 1369 (49.9, +15.4) Con 1169 (42.6, +1.3) Lab 208 (7.6, -7.4) [Grn dns, -8.3]
Surprising to see the Con share go up in the circumstances, even with the Greens not standing.
Interesting what the Daily Righty Rant (I mean the Daily Mail) goes with one of the main section
ANALYSIS: Is Labour using the police?
Wonder if Dacre is going to get a late night phone call from his mate Gordo this evening?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1090110/ANALYSIS-Is-Labour-using-police.html
537. Don’t know if there is a specific name for a Tory supporter whose subsequent posts criticise the Tories.
Certainly I want Brown out at the next election, but I have also been critical of possible complacency setting in, lack of clear policies that the ordinary voter can understand and I have been critical of the Tory lynch mob mentality tonight, when they are passing judgments without knowing all the facts.
My criticism is not borne out of wanting to preserve the Labour government, it is because I am genuinely frustrated that the Tories will let Brown off the hook if they show complacency and do not get their act together on presenting clear policies that the average voter will understand.
So, do I fall into the category you are refering to? Indeed, am I the person you are referring to?
Wow. 650+ posts. Must be “new thread” time soon
646 Disraeli, you’ve got it spot on. The Beveridge Report was commissioned a good few years before the post-war Labour landslide. It is debatable how other governments would’ve implemented it, but there is no doubt that there would have been universal healthcare available, and probably slightly more efficient than the current one.
646
James Bartholomew’s ‘The Welfare State We’re in’
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Welfare-State-Were-James-Bartholomew/dp/1842751611/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227835250&sr=1-1
provides a good picture of health care in Britain before the NHS.
“Wow. 650+ posts. Must be “new thread” time soon ”
Am I seeing a different thread to everyone else? I’m only seeing…
Oh wait. A few pixels of the post numbers have been cut off on the left side. It’s making the 6’s look like 5’s.
The second most disturbing thing in this is the use of the counter terrorism police as a sort of special political squad. As most terrorism is political - even when it is religious - this is an easy but dangerous position for lazy Labour ministers to slip into. The McNasty mindset.
And Penny4: most MPs get at some time or other information that is, shall we say, sensitive in security or criminal terms and most have the sense to check it out before doing anything with it. There is one example above, but there are more recent ones that are not in the public domain you may be certain. Some big, some small in importance.
I think that you may assume that Green, as an old hand, would have been careful and checked it out.
Sally C made a good point about the need to arrest a person who would voluntarily be interviewed. However, the law on this is quite clear; whilst the police have the power to arrest for any offence they may only do so if they have reasonable grounds for believing at least one of a specified list of conditions is true. Those conditions are:
(a) to enable the name of the person in question to be ascertained (in the case where the constable does not know, and cannot readily ascertain, the person’s name, or has reasonable grounds for doubting whether a name given by the person as his name is his real name);
(b) correspondingly as regards the person’s address;
(c) to prevent the person in question -
(i) causing physical injury to himself or any other person;
(ii) suffering physical injury;
(iii)causing loss of or damage to property;
(iv)committing an offence against public decency (subject to subsection (6)); or
(v) causing an unlawful obstruction of the highway;
(d) to protect a child or other vulnerable person from the person in question;
(e) to allow the prompt and effective investigation of the offence or of the conduct of the person in question;
(f) to prevent any prosecution for the offence from being hindered by the disappearance of the person in question.
This necessity test seems to be ill-understood by defence lawyers (at least I have not yet heard of any of them kicking up a fuss) and buy the police themselves (who appear to believe that item e, means what’s easiest for me and will help me meet my arrest target this month and can therefore be used in every case). As an aside there is fame and fortune to be won by some enterprising lawyer prepared to tackle the police on this issue as a very large proportion of arrests are probably illegal.
In the case of Mr Green the police action was clearly planned in advance (the arrest of the civil servant happened ten days ago) and given that, according to the BBC he was released on bail this evening O for one struggle to see how any of the arrest conditions could apply. In short I think the arrest was unlawful.
Search warrants could have been executed and Mr. Green could have been interviewed without any need for “feeling the collar”. I might add exactly the same arguments applied in the “Cash for Peerages” case.
As for the separation of powers mentioned by some posters, please get real. There is no way on Gods earth that the Investigating Officer in a case like this would be allowed to run with it. All actions would have to be agreed in advance right up to commissioner level – and the Commissioner would most certainly make sure the Home Secretary was aware of what his officers were going to do.
Damian Green statement on his release
In a brief statement after his release, he said: “I was astonished to have spent more than nine hours today under arrest for doing my job.
I emphatically deny I have done anything wrong.
In a democracy, opposition politicians have a duty to hold the Government to account. I was elected to the House of Commons precisely to do that and certainly intend to continue doing so.”
657 Matt Pain. Thank You, though your explanation was better!
658 Dave B. Thank you for the tip. I have added it to my Amazon wish list. (Also added Peter Oborne’s “The Triumph of the Political Class” while I was at it).
Given the government’s consistent record, why don’t they just fine anyone who is living while male, breathing while white, and working while Tory?
Just lock us all up, you fascist, New Labour f*ckers. Just do what you are so obviously dying to do.
From Dizzy: [I hope this works!]
It didn’t. Oh well. It’s a nifty countdown until the recession is over. 216 days 22 and a bit hours and counting…
664 They probably would, they just haven’t thought of it yet.
661.”As for the separation of powers mentioned by some posters, please get real. There is no way on Gods earth that the Investigating Officer in a case like this would be allowed to run with it. All actions would have to be agreed in advance right up to commissioner level – and the Commissioner would most certainly make sure the Home Secretary was aware of what his officers were going to do.”
In some ways, I am totally speechless at what has happened tonight, and the implications for my country right now. With events unfolding in Mumbai and the 6th death in Afghanistan in just a couple of weeks, words fail me.
ConHom tonight, When did ministers know?
”
Newsnight reports that Boris Johnson was told of the police’s intention to arrest Damian Green and objected.
That must mean the Home Secretary was also told and did nothing to stop the heavy-handed policy sting. Unlike Boris, Jacqui Smith had the power to stop the sting.
Ben Brogan blogs that Brown knew nothing of this. The Tory use of the term “Stalinesque” to describe today’s events might suggest they think otherwise.”
Watched the Jon Craig report with my hubby at 9pm tonight on Sky.
His comments summed up what has happened perfectly. Opposition Minister arrested for doing his job and embarrassing the present government. In fact, I am gobsmacked at the implications for our elected representatives and their ability to hold the government of the day to account.
If anyone doubts how serious this is, just check out the reaction of Diane Abbot and Chris Huhne on This Week! Welcome to Gordon Brown and this Labour government’s Britain.
When the government are really keen to get it out on the airwaves at 10pm, that “it wasnae me, I didnae know nothing”, that should have sent an alarm bell ringing!
And the media? Well, if they are going to arrest a Shadow Minister for leaking this information, I expect them to extend the same courtesy to government Ministers and the journalists too?
I smelt the biggest, and most pungent rat tonight! When after hours of speculation with no one in the blogsphere able to get the story out, the details conveniently came out in time for the 10pm news, tomorrows papers, and even QT where David Dimbleby questioned with George Osborne!
On no account should David Cameron walk side by side with Gordon Brown on the official opening of Parliament until this is resolved!
If Boris knew about this before the arrest, who else from the government did? As Diane Abbot pointed out on This Week, she cannot believe they took this action without political cover, and we know the views of the Mayor of London already. If he was informed before hand, which government Minister was accorded the same privilege, and what was their opinion of this action?
James Forsyth at the Coffee House Blog on the This bird should never have been caged
“As Fraser says, one hopes that there is more to this Damian Green case than we currently know about. If not, it is a disgrace. It does make one wonder what kind of country we now live in.
Maybe I’ve been watching too much The Devil’s Whore, but Green’s arrest—and the search of his Commons Office—seems to be an affront to Parliamentary democracy. Green appears to have been exposing things that the public are entitled to know. After this one wonders if a new offence will be introduced of trying to hold the executive to account. Also given the stories that were apparently involved, I’m struggling to see what possible justification there is for the use of counter-terrorism police in this investigation and arrest.
The fact that Boris Johnson was informed—and objected to—Green’s arrest in advance, suggests that government ministers might have known about this investigation and arrest in advance. If that was the case, it will make this case even more worrying.”
New thread - “Is this a gift to Cameron?”