No charges against Green - NOTW
December 7th, 2008
So where does Greengate go from here?
The News of the World is reporting that neither Damian Green nor the Home Office mole will be charged:
“…Damian Green and his Home Office mole will NOT be charged in the leak scandal, the News of the World can reveal. Prosecutors say papers seized from Mr Green’s Commons office cannot be used as evidence in a trial. They add that cops FAILED to conduct a proper search in Westminster.
The conclusions, in a secret early review by the Crown Prosecution Service, coincide with the initial findings of an independent police probe. That investigation is already concluding the case is “not prosecutable”, and the decision to arrest the Shadow Immigration Minister was “over the top”. One source said: “This was a sledgehammer to crack a nut by Scotland Yard—totally disproportionate.”
Double Carpet
The International thread will follow later
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First?
first
didnt the Labourgraph say the exact opposite……
Remember when the tories were viewed as the ‘party of Law and Order’? They now spend their time inventing new ways in which to denigrate and undermine the Police.
I fear we’re going to see another bout of Police-baiting from the ‘nasty party’. They seem deaf to all reason and the public will look on with disgust.
One obvious result is that Mandelson is clearly left looking a prat. His sinister attempts to smear ALL the Tories..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1091467/Mandelson-accuses-Tories-colluding-Damian-Green-Home-Office-leaks.html
… now seem rather foolish and overblown. A smear too far.
The Tories should make hay when the charges are officially dropped, with quotes like these from the Lady M of Hartlepool.
If it does turn out that there will be no charges over the Green case, that will vindicate those of us who have repeatedly called on more excitable posters to await the completion of the investigation.
4. Labour Party Mouthpiece: I fear we’re going to see another bout of Police-baiting from the ‘nasty party’. They seem deaf to all reason and the public will look on with disgust.
Yes, I expect that your nasty government will do that, since the police has failed to do their bidding.
4 Has Gabble had too much coffee again?
6. Labour Party Mouthpiece: If it does turn out that there will be no charges over the Green case, that will vindicate those of us who have repeatedly called on more excitable posters to await the completion of the investigation.
It will, of course, do nothing of the sort, liar.
Previous thread: “There is nothing remotely funny about what this government has done to us in the last 10 years - nor, I suspect will you find it fun, if one of your big successful bets is eventually paid in worthless pounds!”
Then bet gold sovs!
The people of Greece have stood up against a police state. Meanwhile, the British government has seized control of our police, allowing it to use anti-terror laws to obstruct effective opposition. The police have become NuLab’s political tool, along with the BBC and the civil service. A point may come when the people of Britain say enough is enough.
Gabble, you didnt answer my question on the last thread. Dont you think the police should investigate the leaks over the Rosyth naval base. Do tell us please.
As the festive season approach can we arrange to have gabble gobbled once and for all … please
9. Well, according to less wise heads, we were living in a Police state and this Police action was ‘Stalinesque’.
There were a notable (albeit small) group of wiser heads who disagreed with this and urged the doom-sayers to await the conclusion of the investigation before jumping to conclusions.
We have been vindicated!
“This was a sledgehammer to crack a nut by Scotland Yard”
Damian Green, a nut?
“So where does Greengate go from here?”
The focus goes onto whether there is a labour mole in the cabinet or not.
“If it does turn out that there will be no charges over the Green case, that will vindicate those of us who have repeatedly called on more excitable posters to await the completion of the investigation.
by Gabble December 7th, 2008 at 4:23 pm”
“If it does turn out that there will be no charges over the Green case, that will vindicate those of us who have repeatedly called on more excitable posters to await the completion of the investigation.
by Gabble December 7th, 2008 at 4:39 pm”
“4. Remember when the tories were viewed as the ‘party of Law and Order’? They now spend their time inventing new ways in which to denigrate and undermine the Police.
I fear we’re going to see another bout of Police-baiting from the ‘nasty party’. They seem deaf to all reason and the public will look on with disgust.
by Gabble December 7th, 2008 at 4:37 pm”
“201. Remember when the tories were viewed as the ‘party of Law and Order’? They now spend their time inventing new ways in which to denigrate and undermine the Police.
I fear we’re going to see another bout of Police-baiting from the ‘nasty party’. They seem deaf to all reason and the public will look on with disgust.
by Gabble December 7th, 2008 at 4:37 pm”
Mike?
12. I would support the investigation of any crime or suspected crime. Nobody is above the law.
I am consistent, you are not…
14. Labour Party Mouthpiece: We have been vindicated!
If there are no charges, who is vindicated? Those who claimed there should never have been an arrest, or those who equivocated?
14 What would have been wise was to not order a politically motivated arrest in the first place.
17. Mike
In my defence, I would point out these were re-posts to a new thread dedicated to this issue.
Dear Politican Punters
On the last thread, Shadsy announced that his company were starting to open books on individual constituencies for the next general election. He advised that one of those constituencies would be Bedford.
In order that I should not be accused of making a false market, I am announcing here that the Save Bedford Hospital party will not be putting forward a candidate at the next general election. We will instead be endorsing the candidate of one of the main parties, and asking our supporters to campaign for (and vote for) that candidate.
I had not intended to announce this at this time, but if people are potentially going to stake money, they are entitled to have the correct information
I assume that Gabble thinks it was appropriate to use anti-terrorism forces in this case.
18. You are not consistent, you are a witless little tit, who befouls the site with numbingly pointless, constantly reiterated spin, cf my post at 17.
Stop it.
18 This is almost as good as the soldier for truth line.
20. That didn’t happen and you have absolutely no evidence that it did.
4. The ‘Nasty Party,?’ this episode proves there if there is a nasty party in British politics, it certainly is not the Tories. Personally I’m willing to accept even the Labour Party is full of decent people who just happen to disagree with me on most things, and we just currently have a nasty Government right now.
21. You didn’t even give us the courtesy of “from previous thread” so we could know you were just reposting the same bollocks. Not that we really need telling that this is your technique.
Apologise, and stop it.
26. Labour Party Mouthpiece: That [a politically motivated arrest] didn’t happen
Bullshit.
This a humiliation for the police, who were more interested in impressing the Labour Party then respecting democracy. Labour will be sad: a prosecution was to have been a useful distraction to Brown’s reducing Britain to an economic basket case.
23. If the case concerned possible leaks of anti-terrorism information, then it would be absolutely correct to have experts in this area involved in the search.
20. That didn’t happen and you have absolutely no evidence that it did. ~ How do you know?
And how about an answer to the Rosyth question?
Can a Speaker stay as an MP? Can he resume the Labour whip? Can he be an independent MP? Can he be removed from the Speakership by a vote of no-confidence? Are there any precedents? The answer to these questions can be summed up by an A-Level politics question which I did in 1989:
“The Constitution is what happens.” [Professor J.A.G.Griffith of LSE.] Discuss.
In other words, things which are considered “constitutional” or “unconstitutional” are merely based on convention and precedent; it is within the powers of the powers-that-be that a new precedent could be established at any time, thus nudging the constitution slightly. If need be, the Speaker could be removed from office by a vote of no-confidence, even if it “can’t be done”.
26 You have no evidence it didn’t, and the chances are it did given Labour’s authoritarian record and lack of regard for the truth.
Was that an illegal equine I saw at 206 in the previous thread? I thought he had been slaughtered already.
32. see 18.
This article was actually posted on their Politics blog last night.
The really interesting bit, is the real ramifications for the Met and one Jacqui Smith, their ultimate guvner.
And Gabble, note the frank discussions between Stephenson and Quick!
Now very carefully start adding 2+2 until you can get the number 4.
When and where, and by whom was Boris told of the imminent arrest in person??
The absent of the Home Secretary in all of this speaks volumes. Either she was not on top of her brief, or was simple unavailable for comment or guidance on this *particular* investigation?
Yet, someone saw the need to tell Boris..
Gabble,
The fact that Green and Galley will not face charges no more vindicates you and your scumbag party than the fact that Morgan Tsvangirai managed to avoid being found guilty in Zimbabwe vindicates the supporters of Mugabe.
Labour have done their very best to lower the level of politics in Britain to that of Zimbabwe
This case will only finally be over satisfactorily when the police and Parliamentary authorities have been held fully to account for their illegal actions. And hopefully those ministers who undoubtedly colluded in this whole sorry affair have been removed from office.
I was willing to accept it was possible NuLab ministers were not involved in setting their anti-terrorist forces loose on Green.
However, seeing as they are so keen to defend the police actions and accuse the Tories of police intimidation, I conclude that the police were only doing exactly what they wanted.
I also conclude they are as guilty (through their support of the police action) if they asked not to be told in advance about the details of the operation or not.
Order! Order!
Any estimates as to what was the cost to the taxpayer of this exercise and the amount of “police hours” spent?
A good one to set the ball rolling at the next PMQ’s
40: ‘Any estimates as to what was the cost to the taxpayer of this exercise and the amount of “police hours” spent?’
Brown and Mandelson - who I believe instigated this whole sorry affair - should be charged with wasting police time. In fact I might get on to the cops straight away to make a complaint.
If no charges are brought, it will be interesting to see how much the police and CPS say officially about why not.
The worst case for Labour is if they say a false complaint was made - e.g, if the police were falsely told that national security information had already been leaked. That would implicate the civil servants who made the complaint, reducing the scope for denials available to ministers.
The other problem comes if the police or CPS say the search was improper, since that undermines those who have been claiming it was entirely legitimate.
No, Gabble, you are not vindicated. You are condemned.
If this story is true, then it is now undeniable that the police arrested an Opposition spokesman in the performance of his duty without evidence of a crime, on a fishing expedition. Directly in contravention of procedures and rights that have stood since Speaker Lenthall defied the last king to attempt to assert the power of the State in the Palace of Westminster, a defiance enshrined in tradition at every State opening of Parliament, a limitation on the powers of the State that has become inseparable from our democracy.
It is indefensible, and the revelation that it was done despite there being no known case to answer at the time (and, indeed, no case to answer despite 10 days of opportunity by the police to trawl through the confidential documents that they incorrectly obtained) explodes the “let’s wait and see” argument.
We’ve waited.
We’ve seen.
It WAS indefensible. If it transpires that the police were motivated by being under political pressure to nail those responsible for the leaks, then can you even attempt to defend the Government?
23. They were Special Operations really. Special ops and the anti-terror unit have been merged. Anti-terrorism legislation was not used for the arrest.
31 Gabble, not sure why I’m bothering but, normally the process would be for an internal investigation into leaks of information and only if this investigation finds evidence that indicates its likely secrets seriously compromising the security of the nations have been leaked would the police be called in (probably after Mi5 or Mi6). The is no suggestion that such evidence was uncovered in any statement made.
Normally it is considered that passing information to an MP doesn’t compromise national security as he will use it to the national benefit or recognise its sensitivity and either himself report the leaker or take other responsible action. That is the case with secrets passed to Winston Churchill, Duncan Sandys and others.
If however the MP is already viewed as a security risk (as some have been) or was for example a Sinn Fein MP receiving classified information about matters of security in Northern Ireland them one would expect a full police enquiry, probably involving the Security Services first.
43, 45. You’re both wrong. If Galley had access to anti-terrorism information and also confessed to being a multiple leaker, then I would expect the Police to investigate and to follow the evidence.
So I’ve missed no polls then? The PBR and Greengate happening in a vacuum of measured opinion?
Anyway, off with the Circus to Big Island….
I thought Gove’s article was very interesting when he says that Brown regularly used leaks from the MOD regarding a naval base in Rosyth. Now if Damian Green has risked secrets simply highlighting problems with immigration, what should happen to Brown leaking info about naval bases?
45 If. if, if.
No evidence, no cause for a complaint. no investigation.
46. And to arrest Green and raid his Commons offices?
Idiot.
If this case is dropped it’s a poor lookout for Labour. And you know it. Hence your hapless spinning.
The fact remains that whatever Gabble says is that Labour are the most authoritarian Govt in the history of our Islands. If they can’t get what they want by legal means (the existing legislation), they legislate against the population at large. British people will put up with so much, but they have reached the tipping point. Labour will be annihilated at the GE, and rightly so.
46. Have you no sense of shame? Listen to yourself man for goodness sake.
If the police investigation concludes that no charges should be brought and there was no realistic prospect of charges ever being brought, how will that do anything other than ‘vindicate’ those who have been arguing such a thing from the beginning?
50. We can only hope Labour are annihilated, but I’m not sure they will be, much as they deserve it.
Let’s not forget that tucked away in The Queen Speech was the Harman hate-the-whitey “Equality” legislation, for the first time making it legal to discriminate against people in Britain on the grounds of their race. i.e. as long as they are white.
Disgusting.
Why does anyone think that Galley had access to “anti-terrorism information” anyway?
“Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?”
46 - what evidence? There is none. The Govt have even given up on the claim that he was responsible for “20 leaks”.
54. They don’t. It’s just another part of the Labour smokescreen, now being blown away - and thereby revealing their tacit complicity in this absurd and wretched prosecution.
53.And was it an accident that there are also other powers sneaked in that allow the police to search Parliament without a warrant?
Yet again, the timing of this stinks!
Boris was right then- somewhere should make him mayor;).
This is a must to watch and cover tomorrow
From “The Telegraph”
Tomorrow’s Commons debate on the Damian Green affair is rich with comic promise appropriate to the festive season. In his wonderfully ludicrous statement last Wednesday on the MP’s arrest, the Speaker of the Commons, Michael Martin, looked like Widow Twankey and spoke like a Scottish Vicky Pollard: “Yeah but no but yeah… this thing which I don’t know nuffink about… Shuddup!… but no, because there was no warrant but I didn’t know nuffink about the police… Shuddup!… it was the Serjeant at Arms what done it… and anyway everyone knows Damian Green is a Tory” etc, etc. Well, that’s not quite how the Speaker’s monstrous evasions read in Hansard, but that’s certainly what they sounded like.
54.Ask the Met to disclose the actual request from the Home Office which instigated this enquiry?
Re 4, Gabble “I fear we’re going to see another bout of Police-baiting from the ‘nasty party’. They seem deaf to all reason and the public will look on with disgust.”
Yawn…
Did we not have this tosh from your side over cash for honours?
At least there, there was a chance of wrong doing. Here there is none.
Interesting also that Tariq Gaffaw (No idea how to spell that) said the Met only investigated the leak and arrested Green because they have become so heavily politicised.
57 - “revealing their tacit complicity in this absurd and wretched prosecution.”
Sean, you’ve inadvertantly given them rather more credit than they deserve. Of course, as we all know, for a prosecution you require evidence.
61 Yes, I know of no reason why this shouldn’t be done.
Re 18, Gabble “12. I would support the investigation of any crime or suspected crime. Nobody is above the law.
I am consistent, you are not…”
OK, how about the law which says that interfering with the job of an MP is a high crime and misdemeanor?
What about prosecuting the police for speading?
63 Except when the evidence is there and it suddenly becomes “not in the public interest” or other such weasel words to avoid the prosecution thereof.
Re 31, Gabble “23. If the case concerned possible leaks of anti-terrorism information, then it would be absolutely correct to have experts in this area involved in the search.”
What you mean like where the press were tipped off by either the HO or Met that the Midlands police were conducting a serious anti terror operation that was almost thrown off course by the leak?
Or are you referring to the Green case where the alleged Home Secretary has said that nothing affecting national security had been leaked?
66.I am just thinking of all the smears from Labour politicians on nothing more than a nod and wink. Just remembering the Crick piece on Newsnight a week ago, with Labour sources telling me etc…
I was wondering if a member of the Labour party has yet had the decency to apologise. If any post on these forums, maybe they could do so here as well.
21.
In my defence, I would point out…etc. etc
by Gabble December 7th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Oh the irony!
I’m away this week. Take it easy on the Police, otherwise the country will hate you.
Bye!
This from “The Daily Squib” (A satirical publication)
LONDON - England - The whole of the UK Conservative party was today arrested on charges of opposing the one party system.
Labour ministers were today in a celebratory and jubilant mood as anti-terrorist Stasi officers were mobilised to arrest the entire Conservative party.
Stasi Minister, Jacqui Smith was on hand to gloat over her part in securing the momentous and historic arrest which will ensure Labour has no opposition in parliament.
“We have cleansed parliament once and for all from the horror of democracy. We can’t have people going around and telling the truth! We are now the parliament, our one party system will last for a thousand years, the opposition were useless anyway, we will not miss them comrades.”
The anti-terror operation was conducted over three days and managed to capture every Tory apart from one — the London mayor who had absconded on his bicycle last night.
The Metropolitan police were searching all ports and airports on Tuesday to try and find Boris Johnson and arrest him.
Evening All,
Apologies, but I’m all Greengated out so no comments on the topic. However, off-topic I found this highlighted on the newsnow site which might interest some:
http://www.labourmatters.com/Editor/lib-dems-biggest-political-donor-quits-the-party/
71 Has Gabble been given a red card by Mike? “I am away this week” seems awfully lame as an excuse. I still managed to post something when I was in the Azores.
“Labour Party…”
“decency?”
sorry, those are two terms that simply cannot exist in a sentance together without the phrase
“…doesn’t know the meaning of the word…
What I want to know is what are the policies of the “do nothing Tories” with regard to pork? When Gordon Brown is doing “whatever it takes” it seems that David Cameron is happy for people to carry on eating pork products. Shameful!!
Here is the original Times article (apologies if this has been posted before).
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5302686.ece
74. Suspect he jumped before he was pushed. He has clearly broken the non-repetition rule - repeatedly.
However I hope he returns, and I have no desire to see him banned - I just want him to stop his reiterative posting of pointless spin. We need lefties on here, especially ones as embarrassing to their own side as Gabble.
76
I am just surprised that Brown hasn’t immediately decided to use anti-terror legislation against the Irish for what is clarly a case of state sponsored terrorism against us.
If it was good enough for a bunch of Icelandic fishermen then surely it should be used against these evil IRA pig farmers.
Interesting discussion on Canada.
Interesting discussion on Canada. If neither Harper, nor Dion, command the confidence of Parliament, then surely the Governor General has to dissolve it.
Humiliation for the Met, then, it seems - and richly deserved.
Egg on face big time for Labour. But is that to be the end of it? They will hope so - no doubt they have been encouraging a ‘no charges’ result from this inquiry and will hope the blame will rest with dumb plods and brainless House of Commons authorities.
But we all know what this case was really all about - will the press have the gumption to keep on digging and bring down the ministers responsible?
80. I doubt ‘has to’. Given the constitutional murkiness I doubt it’s so clear cut. I suspect the GG leaves it until they lose a vote on a confidence issue.
please ignore gabble….i can’t believe most decent labour people would share his viewpoint, i suspect he’s a student with a lot of time on his hands and gets his kicks from annoying people…its getting tiresome!
Frankly I wish Greengate would go away now. After god knows how many threads and comments on it I’m Greengated out. Something new please.
It hardly counts as ‘news’ that there will be no charges against Damian Green. This was completely obvious over a week ago. Indeed, it is almost inconceivable that there will be charges against Galley.
That’s why I think Mandelson made a major error in his partisan intervention last Monday. It suggests that, contrary to popular opinion, he is by no means infallible in media management.
Given the original (from Labour’s point of view) disastrous arrest and police search operation, this was always going to damage Labour. They could have minimised the damage by expressing surprise and concern, and being as non-partisan as possible. In essence their message should have been ‘Obviously the police are fully independent, but we are concerned at the way this has been handled. When the police investigation is complete, we will seek a review of the issues raised’. Instead, they tried to smear Damian Green. Big mistake, which bodes badly for Labour’s news-management operations up to the election.
what are the odds on michael martin resigning tomorrow?? and i do wonder what sort of whipping operation the tories will put into operation for what is only a 3 hour debate.
84. I am sure Gordon Brown would agree with you.
81. My presumption, when Greengate first erupted, was that Labour would ideally want this outcome: charges swiftly dropped, police and underlings blamed, etc.
I presumed Labour would want this, as Greengate was obviously so potentially damaging to Labour, the longer it went on.
However, their spin operation since then has made me question that assumption. After an initial bout of soul-searching, Labour have been very vigorous in their smearing and innuendo - see Mandelson’s remarks about Tories colluding, Beckett accusing the Tories of intimidating the police, the endless idiotic stuf about Boris, and so forth.
All this classic NuLabour politicking has been so keen, it has made me wonder if Labour genuinely felt Green had a case to answer. And maybe they really wanted the prosecution to continue, as they hoped it would damage Cameron and Co.
Who knows. All we can say is that, because Labour have gone so far out on a limb, and made it a partisan issue, they will now look very ridiculous if and when charges are completely dropped. See Gabble’s unhappy spinning on here, today, for immediate evidence.
Is this all just a simple miscalculation by Mandy and chums? Very curious.
I’m sticking to not commenting on Damian Green’s legal position. But in response to 86, Monday is a free vote - it’s “business of the House”, and there will be a variety of motions to choose from. If the Tories choose to polarise it, I expect most people will respond, but maybe we’ll have a sensible debate.
84. It’s clearly a massive issue in the Westminster Village and not exactly a small one outside. The conduct of the Labour party has been contemptible. Ed Balls is now blaming the Tories for undermining confidence in the speaker’s office (as if he hasn’t done that himself). Margaret Beckett says it is a long standing tradition not to criticse the speaker’s office (so what he should be allowed to do anyhting he wants, should he?). Harman is the one minister who can speak wither her own voice, which she has done once or twice, Straw is keeping quiet and the rest are a bunch of Gordon’s robots.
I see now that Stalin Brown might be prepared to introduce laws so that a warrant is no longer needed to search the Commons. So we can’t trust MPs anymore, can we?
88 seanT - I agree that Labour reaction looks wrong. But if you think about it, they would have nothing to lose by being much more aloof and cautious. If there WAS a case to answer, and Green ended up being charged, they’d get the political benefit anyway.
So I think it is a simple miscalculation, caused by panic at the way the story has developed.
89. Nick Palmer: If the Tories choose to polarise it, I expect most people will respond, but maybe we’ll have a sensible debate.
Erm, Nick, which side has been making it a partisan debate?
88. I think the media management operation was based on the premise that if Labour slung enough mud, it might make people think that the Tories were doing something bad. It worked to some extent as Mandelson got his headlines and we still see it today with Beckett and her absurd claims. Tell the same lie over and over and some people will believe it.
I think the public is not very well informed and even those of us who think that Greengate was a horrible mistake from the viewpoint of British parliamentary democracy, have found it tedious - even the Tories on the site are sick and tired of dealing with the spin and innuendo put out by Labour hacks.
Maybe this will backfire on Labour, but so far, I am not sure that damage limitation has not been achieved. I am relishing the thought of what a scapegoated Bob Quick might say though.
91. Yup. As someone said (it might even have been me), rightwingers tend to get a bit spooked by Mandelson’s weird queenly juju.
He is very capable of making mistakes. This looks like a reasonably large one.
Not sure what impact it will have on Mr Average Swindon Voter though.
93.”88. I think the media management operation was based on the premise that if Labour slung enough mud, it might make people think that the Tories were doing something bad. It worked to some extent as Mandelson got his headlines and we still see it today with Beckett and her absurd claims. Tell the same lie over and over and some people will believe it”
Classic New Labour, classic Brown tactic. And if the story had drifted away over the last week, with Galley and Green left in limbo until they are due to reappear at a local police station some time in the New Year, it would have been job done.
But, if this blows up earlier, and all charges are dropped in a blaze of publicity it will have failed.
93. Ken: Tell the same lie over and over and some people will believe it.
Well, that’s this government’s strategy condensed to a single sentence.
’slung enough mud’
Labour need to swallow their pride and accept that this was a mistake and Green should never have been arrested and his office never searched. But Brown can’t back down. So he’ll drag the whole thing on knowing that Labour are on much dodgier ground than the Tories.
89 Nick, that is utter BOLLLOC*S. Its the LABOUR PARTY who chose to attack and use the power of the state to do so by arresting an MP. Your post is hypocrisy of the worst kind. I seem to remember the Conservatives have been defending Damian Green. What about Mandys comments and Beckett’s, hardly moderate are they? Furthermore, your extrapolation of a few canvas returns in a ward in Broxtowe into a 3% Conservative lead nationwide (on the last thread) was delusional. Please do tell me what formula you used to achieve this result?
BTW do you support the police investigating leaks over Rosyth. I know I have posted this before but its important.
Boys in blue (The Rozzers, not the Tories) really do come across as totally useless in this. Sinister, but useless with it. They seem to be the ones operating above the law, and they need reigning in in my view
93. Will Quick be scapegoated?
Before this all started Boris was comfortable with Stephenson as Met Chief. However, some believe that Quick is the Government’s pet copper (e.g. his overt support for 42 days). They are both rumoured to have applied for the job.
If the Government preferred Quick over Stephenson they now have the opportunity to drop the latter (he’s the boss the buck stops there etc.).
Of course the big question is whether Normington should be allowed to Chair the selection committee for the next Met Chief given his personal involvement in this debacle?
Personally, I’d prefer neither to be considered and Normington not to be the Chair of the selection committee. This affair has tainted them all in one way or another.
89 - Nick Palmer is as usual mealy mouthed and partisan in a weasel words kind of way.
It was the Labour Party that last week rowed in behind Brown’s refusal even to countenance the view that an arrest on the Parliamentary Estate without a warrant was wrong. It was they who were whipped asnd politicised a House business issue.
If Nick Palmer cannot see the big picture - especially for a party going into opposition in 18 months time - then he is foolish as well as bovinely on message.
O/T. Everton pulled back an equaliser in stoppage time to level against Villa. 2-2. Then Villa score in added time to stoppage time! 2-3 to Villa.
Whayhaay !!
Everyone should watch David Starkey’s appearance on This Week.
99. AJK. Boys in Blue,(The Toffees not Chelski), have to be considered unlucky today. Shame!
89 - Mr Palmer. You accuse the Tories of being party political. Can I remind you that it’s perfectly clear that the speaker has now become a labour stooge. Last tuesday’s meeting proved that.
Blair would not have behaved this way. Brown is simply too immature a character to see the stupidity of what he is doing.
Albion Till I Die has been conspicous by his recent absence-as my mums family are from Shropshire,close to West Bromwich,I would wish them well,but despite todays point,I increasingly foresee a long hard winter for the Baggies.PS Tomorrow evening,C’MON WEST HAM!!
Look out for Lord Mandy performing his next trick
Trying to destabilise the Tories on the Euro. Greengate blew up in his face.
It’s always disappointing to see someone who is clearly intelligent such as Nick Palmer be forced to demean himself in order to protect his intellectually, politically and in this case constitutionally challenged superiors.
However, I remember him trying to defend the 10p Tax Cut back in March and trying to tell me that the poorest would not suffer. He was wrong then and he is wrong now.
107. Even Ken Clarke thinks joining the Euro at this time would be a bad idea so I really don’t think Mandy Pandy will get much traction if he thinks it will split the Conservatives.
89. Sour grapes oozing from every word of that post by ‘good ol’ Nick’.
107
I suspect that he would have a hard time with that one. Even the most pro Euro Tories have been admitting that now would not be a good time to join. At best he might get one or two who break ranks over the issue but he would get far more from the Labour benches opposing any move towards membership - the 20 or so on the Labour safeguards group to start with.
Labour would end up looking far more divided on the issue than the Tories with the added benefit that membership of the Euro is still opposed by a steady majority of the electorate so their natural sympathies would be towards the Tory position.
I actually feel a bit sorry for him, having been to the bunker (or has them e mailed or texted) for instructions, and having to post it on here too. Must be difficult to post such a load of claptrap. Is is honest? I’ll leave that to NP and his conscience.
112. No-one forces him to do the job he does. He has chosen to demean himself in this manner and must live with the consequences.
89 - Nick, that is one of your more disappointing posts. The government have made this party political, not the Tories. The Speaker was wrong and should have resigned by now. If this had been the office of a Labour MP, a Nat or a Liberal Democrat I would have thought exactly the same thing.
Defending the Speaker in his dereliction of duty is just silly.
107. What needs to be remembered about Mandelson is that his ‘genuis’ political skills were always applied in the past under a leader in Blair who was eminently sensible. I’m sure he kept Mandy in his place if he was getting carried away. Brown I’m not so sure about.
Even the beeb weren’t on message; Martin got a good going over on The World This Weekend, with lots of invidious comparisons between Martin and Betty Boothroyd.
89 Maggie Thatcher fan says “Nick, that is utter BOLLLOC*S. Its the LABOUR PARTY who chose to attack and use the power of the state to do so by arresting an MP. Your post is hypocrisy of the worst kind. I seem to remember the Conservatives have been defending Damian Green.”
Who was it stopped free individuals on motorways going about their lawful business and prevented them from going to support fellow human beings in a lawful activity - The Tories in the Minor’s strike
88 You are right, SeanT. Labour initially believed not only that Green’s arrest would be damaging for the Conservatives but that a number of other Conservatives were implicated and would also be damaged when their names became public. They believed this so much that they were talking about an election on 30 April.
That was over a week ago.
117. It was not lawful. If Scargill wanted to make the strike lawful, he had to do one simple thing - hold a secret ballot of members and win it. Silly man, Thatcher would have been stuffed. Since he didn’t, we’re left with a choice between rabble-rousing megalomania and a certainty of losing the ballot.
117 - The Minor’s strike! Nappies, nappies, nappies, Off! Off! Off!
114 David - the words “hanging”, “on” and “thread” spring to mind ….. sadly from my perspective.
The Labour Party didn’t arrest Damian Green THE POLICE did. The Tories are screaming “police state” yet are demanding intervention by the state into the operational independence of the police! Indeed, their senior elected politician has himself interfered with and undermined the police operation while the rest of his party has attempted to intimidate the police and threaten their independence in the future. The hysteria from the Tories is, rightly, making the general public very suspicious!
Patrick - was down at mecca this afternoon to see Albion robbed (yet again). It is a long hard winter ahead, but the goal is like my career next year - its all about survival. Any chance of lending us Carlton Cole?
I have been conspicuous by my absence - just started a project which is taking up most of my time, trying to turn round a company struggling massively because of the price of copper coil, a direct result of Mr Browns devaluation strategy. I reckon 100 people will lose their jobs as a result.
“No more boom and bust”
115 Mandy was at his best(if that is the right word)
when Blair was in charge. He will find Cameron and Osborne a different kettle of fish, Cameron in particular can change a Labour smear round, and through it back with bells on.
A charmless lot the Tory supporters on here. (Ted excepted obviously) Appropriate that the most charmless should be someone with ‘Maggie Thatcher’ in his username and close behind should be a Tory MP.
re 22. Barry - thank you for making that clear on the site. I think that the huge amount coverage that you have been able to achieve would have meant that the Bedford seat would have had a higher media profile during the election campaign itself.
My reckoning was that you were going to do quite well and put up a creditable perforamce. As a Bedford resident and sometime user of Bedford Hospital (I was there for a week exactly a year ago) you have put the hospital issue on the map. If the effort to maintain the Hospital is in any way helped by what you have achieved then you can take a lot of the credit.
120 Scargill couldnt be sure he would win the ballot IIRC. The Nottinghamshire miners didn’t go on strike, neither did NACODS, (I am happy to be corrected here). Doesn’t the ring of familiarilty of not facing a ballot for fear of losing it still have resonance 25 yrs later…..
123. Having read your post we know who is ‘hysterical’ and it’s not the Conservative Party. Say one hundred times….
Just because I repeat it incessantly, it doesn’t make it true.
The next key move in this tomorrow is for all the opposition parties to actually stand behind the Speaker’s original request for a committee of appropriate people to be set up quickly.
The Govt have however proposed a Labour dominated committee appointed on a party basis that will meet after the police investigation i.e. late in 2009 or possibly 2010. Not quick and thoroughly inappropriate.
The contrast between the two positions should be shameful to any Labour MP that believes in Parliamentary democracy. However there may only be 20 or so of those and we will see which group people like Nick P are in.
Which ones hold their parliamentary manhood cheap?
123
Garbage,
the investigation was instigated by the givernment and facilitated by a partisan speaker who allowed the police and his own Parliamentary officials to carry out unlawful searches for which they should be prosecuted.
Demanding that the police adhere to the law is not interfering with their operation, it is making sure they are properly accuntable and behave in a lawful manner.
Your spin is sickeningly transparent.
126 I see Roger , you attack me because of my tag, the last refuge of a scoundrel that it, when you cannot argue the case.
128
And because the Notts miners wouldn’t go on strike the law abiding and peaceful NUM scum came down to Nottinghamshire and smashed up shop fronts in Newark. Nice.
128. I think you’re right. Mind you, Scargill did make sure that he’d be all right - ended up as President-for-Life of the NUM with a fat pay-cheque in perpetuity. Didn’t take a reduction in salary when membership numbers fell through the floor, either. Typical man-of-the-people.
124 I share your pain on the pitch;as a council worker with a Barclys-Woolwich tracker mortgage I am quite a happy bunny on that score
Re ‘Boom and bust’,as I recall,to within 0.5% of GDP,the fastest economic growth since 1997 has been c.3.5%/annum-it is to be hoped this recession is relatively short and mild for all concerned.
I recall the late80s and early 90s-in 1988 GDP growth peaked at c.4.75%,with the very irresponsible tax cuts in Lawson’s 88 budget fuelling the flames.The 1990-2 recession was deep and savage-whatever happens the oscillation between peak and trough will,in proababilty,be less dramatic.
I extend good wishes to your colleagues,and hope as many as possible survive
132 MTF - Mind you, Roger’s post wasn’t exactly a model of charm, was it?
Arguments about the miner’s strike are fine, but what in god’s name does it have to do with the arrest of Damien Green?
130 The Speaker also needs to think about his own legacy. One way for the Speaker to redeem himself would be to remind the HoC what he actually recommended and seek their support in achieving that. Thus if the Govt vote in something else (as they propose), Speaker Martin could then resign on a point of principle that his wishes had been over ruled by the State.
He would then go out with an enhanced reputation and any future Govt that rode roughshod on a Speaker’s request would think twice about it.
All of us of whatever political view would then have something to praise Speaker Martin for.
128 NACODS were balloted in mid Sptemebr 84,and their strike was called off a week before it was due to start at the very end of October (to the best of my recollection)
P.S Arthur Scargills calling the strike at the end of winter,without a natioanl ballot,was crazy-I share the sentiments of whoever said ‘he was assured a job for life’-although at the time I cheered for the miners,I now realise what a self-obsessed lunatic Arthur Scargill was -I know three moderate Labour voting ex-miners,and we agree on ‘Arthur Scragill is one of the biggest w*nkers to ever walk on the face of Gods earth’
137. Not a lot, I’d agree. However, it’s beneficial to refute socialist folk tales with fact, otherwise some who were too young to remember accurately might start thinking they’re being told the truth.
132. I was judging you on the ignorance of your post 99. I put forward your username in mitigation. Can’t you take your vendetta against NickP onto a separate thread?
123, Johnny Foreigner,
The Labour Party didn’t arrest Damian Green THE POLICE did.
Why? Why go in this stupidly heavy-handedly over this leaker and never before? Why go into Parliament to seize the contents of an MPs office without justification?
Why wasn’t Brown frogmarched down to the station and clapped in irons for his part in leaks (again, and again, and again and again …)?
The strong suspicion is that there was Government pressure (whether explicit (unlikely) or implicit (more likely)) to get the source of the leaks by whatever means necessary, ferret out other leaks and ensure sufficient evidence to prosecute.
The Tories are screaming “police state” yet are demanding intervention by the state into the operational independence of the police!
They (and the Lib Dems and some Labour MPs, together with many commentators) are indeed incensed that the police should overstep the law in such a way. If the police go beyond the law, then yes - they should be reined in. If they were themselves pressured into it, then I have to have some sympathy for them.
Indeed, their senior elected politician has himself interfered with and undermined the police operation
How? By warning them that they were being bloody stupid but not preventing them? Seems quite sensible now. By predicting (correctly) that the leak enquiry was unlikely to result in charges?
while the rest of his party …
And, of course, those authoritarians the Lib Dems, Frank Field, Bob Marshall Andrews, and so on …
has attempted to intimidate the police and threaten their independence in the future.
Yeah. Right. Terrible of them to say that the police are subject to the laws of the land. Unforgiveable to complain about interference in the normal business of an MP and improper seizure of confidential files whilst not having enough grounds on which to mount any kind of charge.
The hysteria from the Tories is, rightly, making the general public very suspicious!
Hysteria? In your humble opinion, maybe.
Suspicious public? Only if the Mandelsonian line sticks. And if it does, I for one will be greatly grieved at a Government gaining advantage from the state improperly arresting an Opposition MP, whether or not it was at the Government’s direct behest.
127. I had a few experiences in Bedford hospital a few years ago. Sorry to hear it’s closing, or is it?
141
Roger, No you didn’t, you never mentioned post 99, you just decided to insult me via my tag and an MP at the same time, you post at 141 was an afterthought and a very lame excuse too.
137. Some people seem to look back with rose tinted spectacles. What happened to many miners was awful, but lets not paint the miners unions as victims, they were bullies, and pretty vicious ones at that. They wanted their way, they had brought down the previous two elected governments, and were used to getting them. little did they know that Mrs T had nerves of steel and had the luxury of choosing when to take them on.
Some say that what Mrs Thatcher did was in general necessary, but the way she did it caused unnecessary hardship (the ‘Tony Blair’ / New Labour position), but it is probable, that it was only possible to make the changes she brought about by being prepared to do what she did.
Oops - damn HTML tags. Please read an end to italics after The Labour Party didn’t arrest Damian Green THE POLICE did. in my post above.
137. ‘Arguments about the miner’s strike are fine, but what in god’s name does it have to do with the arrest of Damien Green?’
Nothing. It’s what pathetic Labour supporters are always reduced to whining about whenever the chips are down.
141 Roger. There are no “vendettas” against NickP- just comments on his failure to address issues that matter. If he wants to be regarded as “the acceptable face of Labour”, so that he can make party-political points, then he must accept that a number of people here understand what he is up to.
146 - Amended, for ease of reading.
Spot the difference:
” It’s one thing for a political party to seek to bully the police into abandoning a criminal investigation into one of its MPs”
Tom Harris Labour MP
http://tomcharris.wordpress.com/2008/12/07/speaker-martin-is-accountable-to-the-commons-not-the-bbc/#comments
“their senior elected politician has himself interfered with and undermined the police operation while the rest of his party has attempted to intimidate the police and threaten their independence in the future. ”
Johnny Foreigner Post 123 above
The Labour Spin machine is running out of ideas..
141. Oh Roger! Welcome back - come to give us some sport old bean?
Unfortunately, your pompousity is becoming rather tedious and is clearly to the fore today. Instead of inviting others to find a separate thread why don’t you take your own advice?
144. Perhaps I should have made clear I was talking about this thread. I thought it was obvious.
126 (Roger)
Oh the irony…….
149, Morus - thanks.
133 - and lest we forget intimidate people from working, killing a taxi driver if I recall correctly?
On topic this might give a few hints where the debate tomorrow maybe heading:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/3659610/David-Davis-Damian-Green-affair-must-never-be-repeated.html
International thread will be up in the next hour or so - thanks.
NuLabour Cabinet were not informed of the arrests because they had pre-instructed that they were not to be informed (of the forthcoming arrest). Look, no fingerprints.
I am at one with John Reid on this. If Smith did not know what was going on, she should have done, that is her job. If she did know and did nothing she should have done.
So whichever way you cut it she failed miserably and demonstrated her unsuitability for the job.
She has to go as does Martin, as the same applies to him. Both in their separate ways are supposed to uphold our freedoms and liberties, and they both failed, they respectively allowed the reputation of the police and parliament to be damaged.
Both should be opposing this new silly electoral law which will allow the electoral commission to instruct the police to search the precincts and offices of parliament on a suspicion of wrong doing on electoral law.
When a government seriously proposed such a constitutional outrage without an flicker of concern, we know we have a serious problem.
I didn’t think provocative names like “Maggie Thatcher Fan” were allowed on here.
160 Have you been demoted, Major?
Just found this link posted on Iain Dale by one of the posters there. From the English translation Pravda Site. It is priceless!
Quite simply, as the UK sinks into the deepest reaches of an Orwellian Police State, where the government tracks every car on the autobahns, every phone call, all Internet usage and even has council members rummaging through people’s dust bins before the rubbish is picked up, and all the while their own industry is pushed off to third world nations and the British themselves are pushed off by a tsunami of third world immigrants bent on making the English like them not themselves like the English, the beleaguered and enslaved subjects of Her Majesty are looking for someone to strike out of sheer anger. Instead of looking inwardly and to God and solving the myriad of their own problems, they have instead chosen the easier route of striking at far off Russians. Of course it is the now long habit of taking the easier route that has brought the English to the point of possible extinction on the English Isles. A sorry state indeed.
My closing advice to the British is simple. First, replace the worn out spine with a new one and stand up for yourselves and your culture. Break your bonds with the Trotskytes and return to a more conservative, Christian society, for which you were once famous for. Rally around the one royal of this generation who seems to have any understanding of honor and duty and who repeatedly placed his life in danger for his nation: Prince Harry, and make a proper King of him. Give him the political power and support to pull the UK from the brink of extinction.
Priceless!
158. A suspicious person might wonder whether Lab are fighting so hard for Martin precisely because he’d roll over and not object to this new threat to parliament’s independence from the Electoral Commission. Note they don’t seem so keen on tackling a real threat - mis-use of postal voting. I wonder why?
“Note they don’t seem so keen on tackling a real threat - mis-use of postal voting. I wonder why?”
Well, you know, Mrs Hussain finds it so difficult to get along to the polling station. The same goes for Mrs Patel and Mrs Ali. And, what’s the point, we all know that we all vote Labour.
164. Hey - what about all the many other people who live at same addresses - don’t forget their right to vote.
145 ‘they had brought down the previous two elected governments’. I do not recall the miners as having had anything to do with bringing down the Callaghan government- they were not involved in the events of ‘the winter of discontent’.
Sky report saying that David ‘Davies’ is saying back off speaker.
http://tinyurl.com/6djnz8
You’d think they’d spell his name right wouldn’t you, unless they’ve got the wrong ‘un.
166 Correct-Mr.Edward Heaths govt was toppled by the NUM.Although not quite old to remember (I was born in Feb 1971),some say the NUM were outrageous in their excessive pay demands,outstripping all other ,more moderate unions,whilst some say Heath was a walking disaster,and accident waiting to happen,
(The Heath govt was affected twice -in early 1972 and the 3 day week in January/February 1974)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent
167. Not presumably David ‘Monmouth’ Davies? And certainly not Rt Hon Dai Davies Independent Member of Parliament for Blaenau Gwent.
Wouldn’t be a political week if at least one media outlet didn’t confuse the many D Davi(e)ses MP.
164. And they vote repeatedly, often at the same election.
168. Heath was a disaster and the pay demands were excessive (I was about 30 at the time and was greatly p1ssed off by a combination of crap government and stroppy miners). Mind you the miners, together with their pals from other unions, also fatally wounded Wilson when they told him to stuff ‘In Place of Strife’ and the ‘Social Contract’ up his fundament.
Gordon Brown - Sorry I shrunk the economy!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/3659197/Britains-economy-overtaken-by-France-new-figures-show.html
169 I DO remember the Winter of Discontent-bins not being emptied,my school caretaker downed tools,and I recall an argument in the corridor,when he forcibly stopped a teacher entering his office,on grounds of demarcation ;’Not your job’.
Many say it is sad and a tad harsh,that the first 2 months of 1979 will always sully the record of an otherwise sensible,steady politican,who made the best of a bad hand dealt to him.
(Before anyone mentions the IMF,two or three facts-
(1)Appalling inaccurate civil service data in the Treasury was the only reason the loan was applied for at all-accurate data would have rendered it utterly unnecessary
(2)The loan for £2.3 billion was c.2% of then GDP
(3)Only half the loan was ever used
(4)What was taken was repaid in full by August 1977
Fact ammunition round over!!
174. What will Gordon do when he’s no longer eligible to sit in at G8 meetings? “Fear not, Cinders! You shall go to the ball - as a terrible warning to others.”
173 True-In Place of Strife would have been a sensible reform
(FWIW,I do agree with the earlier union reforms Mrs.T passed-pre-strike ballots etc-I am no militant at all (Well,not often :wink:)
174. Nonsense article. The economist quoted should be ashamed of himself. He is clearly quoting a market price exchange rate not the purchasing power parity one which is the one we should use for comparing the size of economies.
Sometimes using the market price makes sense. But not in this case.
France probably will overtake the UK during this recession though on a PPP.
174. Likewise:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5299162.ece
In other words, after 20 years of Tory government (or Tory economic policy) by 1999 this country had managed to claw itself out of socialist despair, and had overtaken France and Italy to become the fourth largest economy in the world.
In 2008, after just eleven years of Labour rule, we have slipped behind China, and have now been overtaken by France again, and will very likely be overtaken by Italy - Italy - next year, making us the seventh largest economy. From fourth to seventh in ten years.
Well done Gordon.
Still at least we’ve got a more cohesive happier country, largely unriven by unwanted mass immigration, with no guilt over any illegal wars that killed half a million, with much more social mobility, and no threat of the worst recession in the West, and, of course, very little knife crime.
Good old Labour. It took them thirty years to f*** the country after World War 2. Now they’ve done it in a decade.
176. Being overtaken by India, Brazil as well as Italy!
Just out of interest I saw something in the papers today that caught my eye. It is the fact that the British Armed Naval ship that was due to patrol the Falklands has had it’s sorty cancelled! Call me cynical but is Brown trying to manufacture a re-invasion of the falklands?
Apparnely only 50 troops and 4 Tornado’s protect the Islands, given the massive oil reserves some say lay round the islands. Is Brown manipulating this to create a crisis for him to get a destraction from the economic collapse?
179. Britain was stuffed in 1945. It took 30 years for people to realise it.
We’ve only just finished paying back the good ol’ USofA for the land-lease agreement.
177. Yes, it was sensible, but the unions hated it, it would have removed their (statutory) immunity from contract law - they could not be sued for breach of contract at the time, even though employers could be.
Wilson then tried flannel, the Social Contract (legally binding) became the Social Compact (a meaningless fig-leaf) but by that time the unions were riled. Didn’t help that Barbara Castle was heavily involved - one of the most hated politicians (by sections of her own party, not the opposition) that I can recall.
I doubt it. Attempting what happened in 1982 would be impossible. We dont have to troops or the equipment. I think the Frigate mentioned in the report was HMS Northumberland.
177 A point that also fails to be made very often is that the level of inflation inherited by Thatcher in May 1979 was 10% - a fair bit lower than that passed on by the Heath govt to Labour in March 1974.
180. The reason why the naval picket is being removed is that the navy only has 22 destroyers and frigates left. The RN sacrificed much of the their fleet in return for the promise of the two new (real) aircraft carriers. The intention clearly is to ask for a proper escort fleet for said carriers once they enter service. These aircraft carriers will allow the navy to regain their position amongst the armed services by allowing large scale projection of power. But, with the paring of the defence budget, the navy no longer has the ability to maintain the picket ship in the Falklands.
178. Labour politicians boasted endlessly that we were the “fourth largest economy in the world”, and they weren’t using PPP figures.
They must therefore die by the statistical sword they wielded: we have been leapfrogged by France.
Anyway, as you say, it is very likely France would overtake us, even using PPP, by next year. As our recession will probably be much worse than theirs.
At least, when we compare the UK with France, we can comfort ourselves knowing we have a better health system, nicer food, better weather, more attractive cities, a less intrusive state, more cohesive sense of identity, and a shining record in Iraq.
Is Gordon, that risible little scrote of a man, still gonna lecture our European friends on “how to run an economy”?
lol
186. Gordon will keep lecturing because it’s the one thing he seems to be good at. Now his record is coming to pieces they’ll probably stop listening.
International thread now up - many thanks.
Double Carpet
by
Double Carpet
December 7th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
183. & 185.
I hear what you say but Brown doesn’t think rationally!
Just take the 2.5% VAT cut for starters! Then before that 10P and some of the other stuff. The man is a nutter! That 2.5% rate cut could have built the carriers and the the rest of a fleet and probably paid for the aircraft as well! I read somewhere else that the remaining Sea Harriers IIRC were going to be ditched due to cost!
179 China is growing exposively,albeit from a lower base,and has c.22 times our population,so GB can be reasonably forgiven for that one-as Ken states,purchasing parity in one’s nation is a more appopriate measure,as currencies oscillate in value.
Immigration-I would say there IS an upper limit to what we can absorb,contrary to what former Home Secretary David Blunkett stated.Our recession will probabaly average others.On Iraq,I disagree-on the strength of my friendship with a 55 year old Iraqi buissman I know,resident in the UK for 35 years-what he told me of Husseins regime makes me stone cold ceratin the overthrow of that bastard was the right thing to do.
Re Labour taking 30 years to wreck the UK postwar,I will quote an elderly gentleman in his 70s,who I met on polling day in 1997.He was cloth-cap wearing,home owning,life-long Labour voter.He said of Mrs.Thatcher: ‘I remember World War II-Mrs.Thatcher smashed up our country worse than the f***ing Luftwaffe’
He went on to say ‘My generation were exhilarated by Clement Attlees election-enjoy tonight (the election night)-this will be your generations 1945 (Labour landslide)And so events proved.
Ask me point blank-is your country a better place than it was on May 1st 1997-on points,by about 80% to 20%,I say a loud ‘YES!’
Didn’t John Hutton postpone the delivery of one of those carriers this week?
The best laid plans of mice and men……
181. The value of the loan was wiped out by inflation many years ago, it was about as onerous as a crisis loan from the DSS, with similar levels of repayment.
180 - not a chance - we couldnt retake the Islands with our Navy as it is now.