Could Bercow be a future PM?
June 24th, 2009
What do we think of Paul Linford’s speculation?
Labour inclined blogger, Paul Linford has an interesting post under the heading “Could it be Prime Minister Bercow one day?”.
His article looks at some of the historical precedent and then concludes:
“..Bercow has said he will do nine years in the Chair, effectively two full Parliaments plus the toe-end of this one. That will make him 55 when he stands down - younger than Gordon Brown was when he became Prime Minister in 2007.
The only remaining question is: If Bercow did decide to pursue a post-Speakership career, would it be as a Tory or a Labour MP?..”
Nice one Paul and I note that you start the post with “at the risk of giving the Tories another bout of apoplexy…”
Stranger things have happened - who would have thought that an arch-right winger would have so managed his career that he secured the speakership by getting the overwhelming support of Labour MPs?
Mike Smithson
MessageSpace Advertising
No.
1st?
Over my dead body!
April Fool!
4. You mean Linford doesn’t know what month it is as well?
Neither party would trust him enough. Plus, he’s not actually that talented.
‘Interesting’ as in ‘ridiculous’?
He might as well ask if Richard Branson will be PM.
I think Paul Linford must have been bored.
‘What really stupid thing can I write about? Oh, I know, PM Gollum!’
Err seeing as this thread is obviously ushering in the start of silly season, I feel no shame in reposting FPT
422 jsfl
No, I’m not…
I accept your criticisms. However, you should note that mySociety have brought in many ‘open government’ projects in the past, on time and with small budgets:
* TheyWorkForYou
* No. 10 Petitions
* WriteToThem
* WhatDoTheyKnow
* PledgeBank
* Travel Time Maps
* FixMyStreet
* HearFromYourMP
* GroupsNearYou
I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to cost estimation given their sterling work so far.
Nothing would surprise me anymore.
6- Is talent a requirement?
But a perfidious party-switcher as PM? Ridiculous! *cough* CHURCHILL *cough*
Surely, when he eventually steps down he will become Baron Bercow of Buckingham?
11 Lord Smeagol of the Precious
No, the Speakers chair is the end of the road for party politics. If he tries to rejoin any party afterwards his entire time as Speaker gains a partisan taint.
10. Not at government, but in behind the scenes manouvering. He got this gig mainly through accident.
As for Churchill, he was widely respected on all sides. Bercow isn’t on any.
Well he didn’t totally rule it out in his hustings speech. I think that whatever we think of his abilities as Speaker we could all probably agree that his ambition knows no bounds.
I predict that Mike will get a lot of traffic on this as the header has just appeared on the top of Politics Home.
There’ll be some asphyxiating Tories (insert obvious joke here) trundling over here as we speak.
FPT.
Mark Sanford enters the worst grovelling politicians statement stakes.
In his apology, Sanford acknowledged not only all South Carolinians, but people of faith, people in his own party as well as his family.
He denied he had ever had other extramarital affairs.
“I’ve spent the last five days of my life crying in Argentina,” Sanford said. “I am committed to trying to get my heart right.”
I’m not from South Carolina, nor in his party and I’ve no faith.
But I demand an apology for him saying
“I am committed to trying to get my heart right.”
Just mischief making, trying to get a few apoplexy-provoked Tory by-elections…
No, he can’t be Prime Minister. Mayor of London, perhaps.
I nominate this post for the Toynbee Prize of “Most Fatuous Contribution to Political Debate and Mr Linford for the Michael Foot memorial prize for the “Most Disconnected Political Commentator.”
I think is more likely that Tim would stand for Parliament, get elected and become PM for the Monster Raving Loony Party.
Which is more likely:
Bercow will be:
= the President of Europe
= an elf in the next Harrod’s Christmas window display
= the male lead in the remake of Miss Congeniality
20 Well that’s lost them my vote
Iran’s interior minister claims the CIA is knee-deep in the protests, funding rioters and generally fomenting unrest:
http://www.reuters.com/article/gc08/idUSTRE55N27920090624
After all this, I think Obama is going to have to come to terms with the fact that no real progress with Iran will be possible until at least some time after his first (possibly only) term. I guess the regime in Tehran will also be inclined to wait until the next U.S. president comes along to have a negotiating partner not “tainted” by such intolerable meddling.
Bercow is too short to be PM.
8. Wibbler
You are talking about public relatively insecure non critical systems which whilst informative are not essential to the running of anything.
Just take a look at the dodgy signatures on the petitions site and that should indicate how irrelevant it is. It has little integrity and has been undermined. To restore its integrity would have a significant cost overhead.
The voting system could not be approached in the same ‘open’ manner. It would need to be a highly secure system (imagine the furore if someone hacked it and voted).
As for pre-publishing, do you mean before it is announced in the House? Even if acceptable constitutionally, once again it would be a critical system. Imagine that being hacked and altered (the odd not added or deleted would be enough)?
Anyway why couldn’t the publishing requirements be achieved on Hansard where at least potentially the initial cost would be much reduced by using a current system?
Gollum was JRR Tolkien’s antiSemitic caricature of the goldsmithing, profiteering, avaricious Jew.
It’s a little uncomfortable to see it applied to the Jewish Speaker.
26- I didn’t know Gollum was a Jew!
No chance! I saw Green when i saw the post!
http://delivernothinglabourparty.blogspot.com/
Re electronic voting. IIRC, that is how it is done in the Scottish Parliament. I think MSPs have yes/no buttons on their desks.
27 Indeed, S&S.
His real name was Smeagol, which as you will know is Middle Earth for Schmeckle.
29
They should give Gordo one of them…
To answer the question. No.
Was it just me or did Bercow come across as a bit light-weight today. He may have been able to quieten the commons today, but I don’t think he’ll have the gravitas to keep this up when the ‘new generation speaker’ thing has worn off.
29. How is the voting reported officially?
27. Think about it for a moment… then you realise. The whole of Lord of the Rings is a racial allegory.
Can I have an ounce of whatever Paul Linford is smoking?
26 I can’t say I had ever seen anything remotely anti-semitic about Gollum - not anything in his character related to goldsmithing or profiteering.
He was avaricious though.
OK, He can be Lord Jaundice of Bug Eye then
26 - SeanT - To be fair to the herd, they won’t have known.
The gollum is a helper, but also a hinderer – a soulless trickster who both serves and undermines Frodo, guiding Frodo into the underworld of Sauron’s kingdom, while being motivated by his own selfish and greedy purposes, which are at odds with Frodo’s conscious commitment to a higher mission. Frodo needs Smeagle, as we all need the energy and power within our own shadow selves when we face the most difficult challenges. Indeed, Frodo is only able to give up the ring of power when he confronts the temptation of power both within himself and outside himself – in his final battle with the Gollum.
In Jewish lore, the Golem (similar word to Gollum) is a soulless helper made of clay.
And one night the rabbi heard a mysterious voice calling to him, “Make a human image of clay and thus you will succeed in frustrating the evil intentions of the enemies of Israel.”
The Golem’s power was quite supernatural and he performed many good deeds. But the living spirit inhabiting the Golem was only a sort of animal vitality and not a soul. He possessed only small powers of discernment, being unable to grasp anything belonging to the domain of real intelligence and higher wisdom.
Ultimately he has to be destroyed (returned to clay) because the contributions he made did not compensate for the soulless qualities that undermined the purpose.
34- I was always suspicious that the movies didn’t have any black people in them…
34- I think I have to lie down now.
37 Neither did you Tim till you googled it…
Most bizarre thing I’ve ever read on here. More chance of Barney Rubble becoming PM.
But why? Who would want him? And why would anyone need him?
Next: will the next monarch abolish democracy?
33. The advantage of the Welsh Assembly (and I assume the Scottish Parliamnent) is there are defined seats rather than benches. It’s done through wires so can be secured as a completely closed system of buttons pressed and results come up on a screen (although iirc some AMs did get caught pushing the neighbours button, and in some cases voted the wrong way by mistake). Not sure how workable that would be with the benches set up.
Not sure if posted - jazzy little vid from the Tories on Brown’s porkies pies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGB_3wByafA
25 jsfl
Re: voting. It’s a very simple yes/no system. If “Who Wants to be a Millionaire” can do it then so can Parliament. There are always security/efficiency/economy tradeoffs but I think the risks are fairly minor precisely because it’s so simple. After all, MPs know which way they voted - that in itself is a robust checking mechanism.
mySociety is not calling for pre-publishing. They are just saying that instead of publishing as PDFs publish the final bills in a tech-friendly format. That is very much easier and does not involve any of the security considerations you mentioned.
I was wrong to say that mySociety were calling for pre-publishing. I do think that is a good idea long-term - but I recognize that it has more challenges than merely publishing finalized bills in a nice format.
34. So the conspiracy theorists claim. At which point a geek war usually breaks out.
37 what has the ‘herd’ got to do with it?
Not sure why the guy/woman you quite comes up with a convoluted ‘Gollum’/Golem equation when Tolkein write about actual Golems - the Pukel Men
37
‘The Herd’ you arrogant twat, you googled something and now ur Bertrand Russell?
Try again.
More seriously, Has Ray Charles been reincarnated?
O/T but surprisngly little discussion on previous thread about the OECD report and Mervyn King’s comments, both of which utterly undermine Brown’s laughable claims that we are “well-placed” for this recession, and also that Labour would not cut spending.
Mystic Merv: “Scale of UK deficit is truly extraordinary”
http://tinyurl.com/me793f
OECD: Only Japan & Germany to be worse in 2009 (export collapse), no other country to be worse in 2010. Darling’s forecasts hopelessly optimistic
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8117013.stm
IMHO the economy is going to hurt Labour even further, and their risible lies will add to their woes.
26/37. Of course it could be that Tolkien took the name for the old Norse word for Gold (gull or goll). Given the Tolkien was a scholar of such things its entirely plausible that he got it from one or more of the half a dozen possible origins in this paper…..
http://www.taylor.edu/dotAsset/57599.pdf
I Find myself agreeing with SeanTs posts this week.
I need a drink.
46 - Its not difficult stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem
49 It was from the noise the character made in his throat ‘Gollum, Gollum’
50 no, its not difficult - its also not Gollum. It is bowever a Pukel Man - the stone guardians of the Black Path to Dunharrow and the Paths of the Dead
jsfl
I think the chance of hackers ‘voting’ is pretty insignificant.
On the other hand, you might get this sort of thing from the Texas state house where legislators themselves vote multiple times when their colleagues aren’t there!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzmGNatLOps
Absolutely scandalous…
35. Ask SeanT. He appears to have got hold of some…
Well, you can have 200/1 that Bercow is next Tory leader with ladbrokes.
1 Morris Dancer
I hope you realise that although extemeley unlikely, we may be referring to this post in 9 years time and calling you Roger. This could eclipse even Rogerdamus’ first-on-thread prediction that Obama could not become the President of the United States.
And Gordon Brown will still be leader of the Labour party, representing Bootle as a councillor (the only remaining Labour council, parliamentary or Euro seat). He will mostly be found sat in a corner, playing with his farm set, mubling incoherently about having transpearently saved the world from those evil Tories / Bankers / English / Americans / Iranians /Blairites.
And Albion will still be boinging between the Championship and the Premier League.
I can’t believe that anyone is suggesting that because Bercow looks like a fictional character in a film that somehow this is anti-semitic.
Baa Baa Green Sheep.
Curious. In fact Tolkien himself apparently said that the Dwarves were to some extent based on the Jews. Gollum/Smeagol was a Hobbit.
Can anyone seriously deny that Gollum is Jewish?
Gollum ~ Golem, as tim rightly says.
Smeagol sounds uncannily like famous Jewish names, like Spiegel, as Peter the P rightly points out.
He has a hunched appearance, he is obsessed with gold, he speaks with a weird accented English like the Yiddisher English of early 20th century Jews etc etc.
Tolkien’s entire creation was founded on his own appalling experiences in the trenches of Flanders. The hobbits are the worthy English, sent to their deaths, the orcs are the fiendish Germans, and so on and so forth (the allegory dwindles after a while, but it is only an allegory).
Gollum is the wartime Jew, who cares not a whit for either side, and only seeks his own financial gain amidst the chaos - the Precious. But he does this obsessively, until he is despised by all.
How much of this did Tolkien mean, how much was subconscious? Who knows. But its pretty irrefutable.
More chance of Angelina Jolie becoming the first woman to become President.
Tolkien’s word is written for us to see. We should not twist and turn it to match our personal ideologies and inclinations. We should not pick and choose as we please. We should not use historical or bibliographical contexts to get into the authors head. It’s presumptuous!
44. Wibbler. I’m not arguing with the sensibility of the idea, I am disagreeing with the assumption that it is not without significant cost and in the current debt crisis I think we have better things to do with the taxpayers money than save MPs a few minutes each day and satisfy your impatience.
Furthermore, comparing one of the critical activities of the UK Parliament with some fairly trivial Saturday night quiz show may indeed reflect the nations current contempt for Parliament but it is hardly a realistic ‘like for like’ comparison. It’s exactly the same as comparing the petitions site with Hansard or something of more importance.
Re publishing, if we are just talking about improving the presentation of the documentation then that is something entriely different and not something I would argue against.
Gollum ~ Golem, as tim rightly says..
coorection.. as Tim rightly googled
53 That voting video is astonishing! Blimey…
34,
No, it isn’t. Although the urban myth does crop up every five years or so.
(Usually closely followed by “Tolkien was racist!” )
Gollum wasn’t soulless - he was a tortured individual snared by an irresistible addiction who strove - but failed - to break free. His failure and loss to an inexorable evil was a key plank of the themes within - he had been a hobbit like the others until he was lost and provided a glimpse into what Bilbo would have become had he been unable to let the Ring go.
The Golem was a soulless automaton.
Although they do both start with “G” and end with “m”.
I think SeanT is having a ‘rich and social-conscience’ moment
59 - Its a classic anti semitic stereotype, although most of the propaganda images that Tolkein will have absorbed are likely to have been in his teens.
He was 13 when the 1905 Aliens Act was passed.
There’s no evidence that he was an anti semite though, if anything the opposite.
http://www.one-eternal-day.com/2008/04/tolkien-on-anti-semitism.html
59 Gollum is not obsessed with gold - he is obsessed/possessed by one plain ring of gold - Gollum does not, for example, use the invisibility conferred on him by the ring when he had it to amass wealth.
Gollum as Smeagol/Slinker shows a glimpse of where he has come from - a fishing Hobbit from the banks of the Anduin. Gollum is far more the innocent victim than Frodo - the gentry inheritor of peril form is Uncle.
The Precious is not financial gain - to assume that is to completely miss the point - Gollum had the ring for centuries and he was by no means ‘wealthy’ - he lived in a cave afraid of the sun going slowly mad.
The allegory is entirely based on Smeagol sounding a bit like Spiegel.
Although I understand Gollum used to eat a lot of fish and say ‘Yum, Kipper!’
67,
tim - good link. I was planning on quoting that letter, but you got there first
53. Wibbler.
I think the chance of hackers ‘voting’ is pretty insignificant.
I’m sure someone in the Pentagon said that too…..
If it’s there and it is hackable (there are ways to make it hack proof just like the current system) then someone will try and someone eventually will succeed even if it is ‘just because they can’. Once they have it will go around the world in an instant (the wonders of the internet).
Agree the Texas manouevre is outrageous but it just goes to show that there are a number of risks that would need to be addressed and each has it’s cost……..
65 - Gollum wasn’t soulless - he was a tortured individual snared by an irresistible addiction who strove - but failed - to break free.,/i>
Another theme in anti semitic caricature, the Jew who would not find Christ.
59 SeanT - thank you for making Tolkein comprehendable to me for the first time.
Frankly I gave up when it got to Tom Bombabdil - I’d lost the will to live
Next you guys will be telling me that Piggy in Lord of the Flies, Watto in Star Wars, and Zebedee in the Magic Roundabout*, are NOT Jewish stereotypes. Puh-lease!
*OK I made that last one up. Er, I think.
Gollum is surely only a step away from classic anti-semitic images - shylock, Fagin etc
14. Churchill wasn’t widely respected on all sides at the time of his defections. He was regarded as some kind of trouble-making nutter by most people during the thirties when his was the only voice calling for money to be spent on defence to counter the German threat. The respect came much later.
IMHO, however, our new Speaker isn’t in Churchill’s league in any respect in which meaningful comparison can be made. He was better today than Michael Martin - which isn’t saying much - but his urge to show off will be the undoing of him. Scoring cheap points off the likes of Sir Peter Tatchell and Michael Fabricant may have got him a few laughs but it will have made him some new enemies, too. Me, for one. You shouldn’t use a position of authority to humiliate people who have no power of rejoinder.
Personally I think we’re all just being shortist and are hiding behind the cloak of anti-Semitism.
76. Indeed equality for PORGS!
If it helps, Tolkien did compare the Numenoreans (Aragorn’s forebears) to Jews.
They weren’t much like Gollum, though …
I must lie down:
Bercow as PM and A Jewish Lord of the Rings is too much for one year .. let alone one day.
Next someone will be telling me the Government is not going to cut spending as a £200billion deficit means Britain is best placed to recover from recession…
74 alternatively he reflects the Wildman - the Wodewose, the creature living on the edge of civilisation. Tolkien’s world is a great deal more complex than an allegory of WWI. Saxon/germanic folklore, the Golden Bough, changing of civilisation and fall of empires, rise of the Soviet Union & Fascism, all of these seem to play a part.
Meanwhile, over at Planet Sanity…
“We don’t need to cut spending. We can raise tax.
Unfortunately it has become clear that the right-wing media is out to sabotage Labour’s public spending plans.
Who do these hacks use to give their figures credibility? First, they regard as Holy Writ the ramblings of a bumbling man who has been consistently wrong about the banking crisis and recession, and who is toadying up to the Tories in the hope of building his empire. Then there is the threat of a credit rating downgrade from a ratings agency which completely mis-rated the toxic junk CDOs which caused this recession because of their outrageous conflicts of interest.
Leave aside the fact that thanks to Gordon Brown’s excellent management of the crisis, we will have less debt coming out of the recession as a percentage of GDP than many major countries – including Italy, Japan, and Germany.
No, the media has made up its mind. Even commentators who are meant to be on the ‘left’ are saying the Tories are being ‘honest’ about cuts…”
http://www.labourhome.org/forum/?p=6059
Yes, indeed, Lord of the Rings is much MORE than a racial allegory based on the First World War, but it is ALSO that, at heart.
I recommend Tolkien and the Great War, for a lucid analysis of the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/Tolkien-Great-War-Threshold-Middle-earth/dp/0618331298
79 - It does appear that the official response from the government is that Britain is well placed to recover according to the BBC. A 14% deficit for the financial year 2010-2011 does not sound like we are well placed.
Bernard Henri Levy vs Ken Livingstone on Newsnight.
Should be fun
PS Read the comments - comedy gold [is that anti-semetic? Ed]
80,
Plus, tie in the Finnish Kalevala and Tolkien’s own views on Death and Loss.
You really have to be a true geek (-shuffles feet nervously-) to do it, but reading through the “History of Middle Earth” series, which shows the evolution of his vision of Middle Earth, the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings does show up things like a simplistic “Gollum=Jewish” or “Dwarves=Jewish” or “Elves=Aryans” or “War of the Ring=World War I” as superficial attempts to read in things that ain’t there.
God knows what they’d have made of Trotter, the hobbit in wooden clogs that was an earlier version of Aragorn’s character. An icon of Dutch trading dominance and exemplar of globalisation?
On reading the thread from today I see that the general consensus amongst most Tories here is that the new Speaker ‘done good’ Very reassuring to hear and hope he continues in the same vein.
As for Bercow becoming a future PM, I think it very unlikely and the fact that this twaddle has emanated from the likes of Paul Linford makes it doubly so.
81. Plato surely you mean Planet Sanitorium?
But given that silly season has arrived with a bang I’m going to call it a day.
Toodle Pip…..
81
Yes, balancing the books with £175bn of tax rises won’t affect the economy at all…
unbelievable
80 - the Political background to the anti semitic imagery in the inter war years is best described in this book
http://www.questia.com/library/book/political-anti-semitism-in-england-1918-1939-by-gisela-c-lebzelter.jsp
Can we have some Latvian Nazis now please?
72. It took me three attempts to get past Bombadil, but shortly after that bit it becomes a great read.
Tolkien probably was a bit racist, and parts of the book allude to that, but no more than most Englishmen of the time. I don’t buy the antisemitism bit however. And Tolkien famously hated allegory.
What a tit!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOZidiWwwz0
And who are these people who butt in and say “you can’t ask that”, they are friggin grown men and women, paid by us, the taxpayer, answer the friggin question!
I remember Benn Jnr getting absolutely killed on a student radio show a while back, and his “helper” kept screaming and shouting that the interviewer couldn’t ask this or that question and that time was up.
90 - What about some Turkish terrorists instead? Oh wait, Smearbot doesn’t like to mention those.
82,
Note that the Great War influence was most seen in the First Age (Silmarillion/Lost Tales) part of his mythos - the War of the Jewels, culminating in the War of Wrath with utter devastation.
The great Battles of Beleriand can be seen from this and I’ll agree that the Somme evoking the Battle of Unnumbered Tears and so forth would go well. But in the setting of the Lord of the Rings, all of that is part of ancient history (the “Elder Days”, of which Elrond and Galadriel can recall, but not much else)
“George Osborne considers Tory plans for emergency cuts cabinet”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/24/george-osborne-tories-emergency-cabinet
Contrast.
Brown “Britain is best placed to recover from recession”
King ” we came into this crisis with fiscal policy itself on a path that wasn’t itself sustainable and a correction was needed. “
91 You can’t beat Iarwain Ben-Adar, Tolkein himself personified in the story. The kernel of Jostein Gaarder’s Sophie’s World!
Off topic (2012 US Presidential election) - After Mark Sanford resigned today as chair of the Republican Governors Association, Mississipi Governor Haley Barbour has taken his place. Together with Hayley’s trip this week to Iowa and New Hampshire, I’ve availed myself of Ladbroke’s 40/1 that he’ll be the GOP nominee in 2012. There’s also 100/1 available that he’ll win the big one.
From what I’ve seen he doesn’t appear to be particularly appealing, but then neither do most of the other likely GOP candidates at this stage
http://apps.facebook.com/politicalticker/first-on-the-cnn-ticker-barbour-to-head-rga/57618/
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/politics_nation/2009/06/barbour_hits_the_road.html
94, 97. You guys really like Tolkien, don’t you?
98. Sanford’s exit also helps Palin a lot - they fish in similar pools.
99 yep, luvvvvvvvv him
92. To be fair, the interviewer was all the over the shop. Sounded half-cut. It’s no wonder Bercow was keen to hurry him along. Surprise ITN let that go out really.
No6 has it about right.
“Tolkien’s entire creation was founded on his own appalling experiences in the trenches of Flanders”
err - Tolkien is on record as saying he abhorred allegory in all its forms.
The Hobbit was a fairy story for his children. Some people are really really pathetic.
And Churchill was a towering genius compared with just about every political figure alive today - not least Bercow.
And BTW 75 - its the speakers job to keep order, one weapon is scathing humour. The point of the Speaker is he is fair to all sides and allows those to be heard who others would shout down. Thats his job - lets wait and see how he does it.
102 - Well he hurried him along with all the charm of a nasty STD!
78. To be fair, Numenor was destroyed (apart from a chosen few) by a great flood (of sorts), which is pretty Old Testament.
99. Nope, never read him. Can’t stand all the fairy nonsense. “Not another f*cking elf” as the famous Oxford colleague of Tolkien said, before hurling his copy of Lord of the Rings across the room.
But I did enjoy the movies, a lot, and I relish this kind of metatextual analysis.
The movie The Mask is all about cocaine addiction.
100 - Heres a betting image, but not allegory of Mark Sanfords last few hours.
http://uk.site.sports.betfair.com//betting/LoadRunnerInfoAction.do?marketId=21311313&selectionId=2785661&timeZone=Europe/London®ion=GBR&locale=en&brand=betfair¤cy=GBP
I’ll grant that Gollum is Jewish if people would concede that Timon and Pumbaa in ‘The Lion King’ are gay.
“Tolkien famously hated allegory.”
If LotR *isn’t* allegorical, what great point is there to the whole saga? With respect, it’s not for Tolkein (or indeed any artist in any medium) to posthumously control interpretations of their work.
99,
So I’m a geek.
(Although I’d disagree with Disws at 97 about Iarwain Ben-Adar being an avatar of Tolkien, but I think we’ve already gone way off topic and tried Mike’s patience already …
(Plus Tolkien geeks can argue for hours about what Bombadil really meant (apart from “Oops, I thought up until now I was writing a children’s book!” )
104. He treated the journalist the way Paxman treats politicians, which is fair enough, if they’re dawdling.
103 Isn’t No6 banned after the Licensing Act 2003?
109 - I spent my teens and twenties avoiding Tolkein fans, as their company guaranteed you wouldn’t get laid.
And now I find myself in here.
109 Bombadil ‘physically’ was based on Christopher’s childhood doll - the character I have always felt was Tolkein withn the story - the Author as witness to the story - but yes, we are getting a bit geeky and off topic.
112 - Easy option then Farmer Tupac isn’t it, go roll your ride somewhere else!
108. Allegory and symbolism are different things. Besides, what’s ever wrong with a bloody good yarn?
As for your last point, I’m normally in the minority when I say this, but I think people should listen to what the author says they meant by their work. It was their message after all.
“Gollum is the wartime Jew, who cares not a whit for either side,”
Somehow I reckon Jews did have a particular interest in one side over the other. Just a wild stab, there.
You’re all nuts.
96. Yes but one of them knows what he is doing and the other one is a complete spanner.
“The movie The Mask is all about cocaine addiction.”
Actually, the movie is a massively watered-down version of an obscure comicbook which was much darker and more violent. In that, the Stanley Ipkiss character (played for laughs by Jim Carrey in the film) is little better than a serial killer.
103. “Tolkien is on record as saying he abhorred allegory in all its forms.”
It’s in the foreword to LOTR itself. To quote it correctly “I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse ‘applicability’ and ‘allegory’; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”
112 oh well, you’ll survive I expect tim, although I am heartily sorry to be cramping your mojo
Go to the Farmer’s Ball instead, you’ll find youself a nice Tory girl, just like Wage Slave
no no no no no no no
117 - I think the same can said of the comparison another poster made between Paxo and Bercow!
116 - He was referring to the First World War where anti semitic cartoons appeared on all sides claiming that the other side were run by jews
116: “Somehow I reckon Jews did have a particular interest in one side over the other. Just a wild stab, there.”
Er, we’re talking about the FIRST world war, not the SECOND.
Halfling.
116. The war in question is usually thought to be WWI, rather than WWII.
“I think people should listen to what the author says they meant by their work.”
Yes, but that implies the author *knows* what they meant…
Pleased to see Tom Bradby, tabloid Royal crawler put in his place.
And back on Planet Earth
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/24/george-osborne-tories-emergency-cabinet
Gordo will be pleased, some BJ4BW,
British Cycling coach Shane Sutton says he expects four of Great Britain’s leading riders to join Team Sky.
The new cycling team will launch next year with the aim of creating a British winner of the Tour de France by 2014.
The team will initially contain 25 riders, this number due to rise to 30. It will have a British core of riders and management
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/8117127.stm
-Manfully resists urge to comment more on tolkien and forces self on topic-
I’d disagree with Paul Linford - the precedent broken by a Speaker actively returning to front-line politics would be massively regressive in any case and potentially poisonous to future Speakers having any possible call on impartiality, and I think that the House of Commons would be very aware of that. So even if Bercow was tempted towards it, I suspect that there would be sufficiently overwhelming cross-party resistance to a Speaker–>active politics move that he’d not even make it explicit.
Did anyone else notice the following titbit from Quentin Letts’ piece in today’s Daily Mail, reporting on “Squeaker” Bercow’s procession yesterday:
“At the edge of the lobby, he [Bercow] spotted a roly-poly supporter from the world of Right-wing internet bloggers.
The nerd was given a special grin.”
I wonder who that might have been?
FFS Tolkien has ADMITTED that Lord of the Rings is a racial allegory - the Shire is England - indeed Edgbaston where he grew up. The Hobbits are the worthy rural English folk, the echt Anglo-Saxons. He has confessed all this.
The battle scenes are clearly a reworking of his nightmarish experiences on the Somme. Gollum is so obviously Jewish (meant or not) its barely worth discussing.
The Elves are more curious, I confess. Celts?
95/127-Snap.
I found this amusing. The GOP is reallly in trouble with people like this in their ranks…
http://timesonline.typepad.com/comment/2009/06/the-bachmann-comic.html
From wiki
“On the evening of Monday April 27, 2009, Bachmann blamed the Great Depression on the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act. She misstated the name of the bill, calling it “Hoot-Smalley”, and described it as the work of a Democrat, Franklin D. Roosevelt,[38] even though it had been signed into law almost three years before Roosevelt took office, by his Republican predecessor Herbert Hoover, and Roosevelt had criticized it in his presidential campaign.[39]”
“In a 2001 article, Bachmann wrote extensively of her belief that the current governments of the United States and Minnesota had plans to end the American “free market economy” and impose a centralized, state-controlled economy in its place.”
131 Gollum is a hobbit
Gollum’s Judaism you seem to be basing on an assumption he craved wealth - he did not.
24. Bercow, at 5′6″, is taller than John Russell (the UK’s shortest ever PM at 5′4¾”) was.
I think you are allowing your artistic imagination to force an interpretation on a subject matter which isn’t really there. It’s the same thing all these bloody art critics do when they’re amazed at painted watermelon nailed to a wall.
131 The Elves have a lot in common with Celtic(Irish) myth - the Tuatha De Dannan especially.
103 Yes, I agree we should wait and see how he does it. But the auguries are not good. There was no need for scathing humour at Sir Peter Tatchell’s expense in Bercow’s inaugural address and so far both recipients of his mirth have come from the same side of the house.
Churchill was a towering figure, you’re absolutely right. But he would have been up against it in today’s climate. Some investigative journalist would have done an expose on his drinking habits, or his bouts of depression, or his age - he was far, far older in office than Ming Campbell - and would have quickly persuaded people to believe that he wasn’t fit for office.
108 Off topic, I’m sorry to see that Rebranded Horse can’t see the point of Lord of the Rings if it’s not taken as an allegory. How about it’s being a fabulous piece of narrative writing, making fluent use of several different linguistic registers, sometimes simultaneously, together with powerful and utterly convincing characterisation, varied and graphic description, while telling a gripping and often very moving story? Isn’t that enough?
122, 123, 124,
Of course, WWII was going on during the drafts of LoTR and still very recent when he finished the manuscript, so if we accept WWI as being of major influence, WWII has to be as well (many of the draft chapters were sent to his son Christopher whilst serving overseas in the RAF).
Yes another U-Turn,
Road pricing killed off by Transport Secretary, Lord Adonis
Lord Adonis has gone further. “We definitely are not proceeding with national road user charging in the next Parliament,” he said.
“It will not be in the manifesto for the next election.”
Despite ditching national road pricing, the Government is carrying on with a series of technology trials which could pave the way for local pricing schemes.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/5625034/Road-pricing-killed-off-by-Transport-Secretary-Lord-Adonis.html
Hmm, so it is scraped, but lets continue to waste some more public money while we are at it!
Of course, it *is* true that heavy-handed use of allegory can drain all the ambiguity out of a work, leaving you nothing to engage with beyond playing trainspotting with the allegorical correspondences.
That’s why (IMHO) ‘Watership Down’ is more interesting than ‘Animal Farm’ and J R R Tolkein better that C S Lewis.
133- That’s nothing. Biden said during the campaign that Roosevelt was president when the stock market crashed in 1929 and that he immediately went on TV to talk to the nation about it.
138 - But the auguries are not good. There was no need for scathing humour at Sir Peter Tatchell’s expense in Bercow’s inaugural address
Now that is a work of genius.
135 That he cared about 3/4″ shows he was a detail man
“Mr Squeaker crouched, like a gardener deadheading a rose”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1195335/QUENTIN-LETTS-Mr-Squeaker-crouched-like-gardener-deadheading-rose.html
Seeing all the Lord of The Rings talk makes me think that something is in the air.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/06/24/tehran_seven/print.html
135 I thpought that it had already been esttablished that Bercow was 6′1″, but was subsequently redacted by the Fees Office.
147 Mr Carp - bravo!
This is pure entertainment:
http://www.redstate.com/e_pluribus_unum/2009/06/24/to-majority-media-and-other-democrats-we-police-our-own-and-you-dont-get-to-judge/
Just freed up a few moderated comments, so the numbering will be out.
News arrives of a secret latter from the US adminstration to Khamenei
Khamenei referred to it last Friday in his sermon:
“On the one hand, they write a letter to us to express their respect for the Islamic Republic and for re-establishment of ties, and on the other hand, they make these remarks. Which one of these remarks are we supposed to believe.”
The Iranian state media are enjoying themselves with what they see as a secret stance and a public one by the US and fancy it can be used as an embarassment.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=98958§ionid=3510203
Newsnight featured Mervy King’s comments. Philip Hammond was very good. The Govt wouldnt put anyone up ..LOL
130 PFP - Jonathan Isaby of Conservative Home.
156 What again no rep of HMG? I do wish they would empty chair them.
O/T Once upon a time it was fake Rolexes and designer gear now it’s cars
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/picturegalleries/5208546/Chinas-copycars-familiar-looking-vehicles-at-Shanghai-Auto-2009.html
They wouldn’t put anybody up the other week for QT either!
SeanT,
Gollum/Smeagol was a hobbit, not a dwarf, the same blood as Frodo and Sam. You could better propose dwarves as an antisemitic stereotype except they long predate Christianity and are surely both better thought of as different actualisation of the same archetype; a lust for wealth, knowledge and power.
And, given his background, its faintly ludicrous to suggest Tolkien would be unaware of any antisemitic overtones in his choice of names. To suggest he chose an antisemitic name is to say he did so consciously.
If you haven’t already read “The Road to Middle-Earth” by Tom Shippey you really should, just the book for you I’d have thought. The most interesting idea in the book is that Frodo’s sacrifice is a pre-figuration of Christ. He initiates the Frotha-Frith - a time of an absence of war - in English, the peace of Frodo. Some elves, but too many.
155- Given how the Iranian government is pouncing on an opportunity to portray Obama as a hypocrite who talks out of both sides of his mouth, not to mention a meddler who is using the CIA to re-inject America into Iranian internal affairs, I doubt serious bilateral discussions will be on the agenda anytime soon.
All of this undermines Obama in another way too: it increases Israel’s leverage in its efforts to resist coercion from Washington (e.g., Israel: So you want us to make concessions while our enemies are becoming more hardline and dangerous?).
162. Any concessions Israel would make would be to the Palestinians, not to Iran.
112. I am a poor lurker, this is my first post, and I know I shouldn’t feed the troll, but he is making me angry and uncomfortable. Sorry, but I find Tim’s continual reference to gollum as a jewish stereotype really offensive. (Crikey we have enough awful literary imagined characters to deal with, without him inventing new ones fitting their narrow views of what people are like based on their background.)
He keeps bringing it up using the usual cliches, but hey he’s using them to empathise and sympathise and suggest that any comment about Berkow’s initial failings as speaker are anti-semitic.
Berkow , I feel about him the same as I do about Alan Sugar, the loudmouthed drunken Auntie at the a party, you feel some kindred feeling for but really hope no-one notices the family resemblance. Why is it lefties are the ones so bloody obsessed by race and religion.
163- Good luck trying to convince the Israelis that Iran and Palestine are not geopolitically linked, along with Lebanon, Syria, etc. Israel will now be feeling more vulnerable vis a vis their hostile neighbors, which is not a recipe for selling concessions to either the Israeli government or the Israeli people.
149 - I’m always amazed that Quentin Letts wants to focus so much on the physical characteristics of politicians.
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.slashfood.com/media/2007/09/quentin-letts.jpg
Given his own unfortunate doppelganger.
http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2005/Mar/Week4/1285340.jpg
Just great:
“New Speaker John Bercow makes his presence felt for all of 3 seconds”
Ann Treneman: Parliamentary Sketch
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6572044.ece
164. Of course these things are linked, but there is a difference between being linked and being the same thing. The current “concession” being demanded is that Israel stops building settlement on Palestinian land. Pray tell me how Iran repressing its own citizens affects their decision to do that.
162. I doubt bilateral relations will be on the table while there’s a revolution in prospect. No point talking to (and hence legitimising) a regime that might be on its way out and which you’d be happy to see go.
165 Nah - Jonathon King is Bob Crow
166 Ann Treneman scored Brown at minus 2 !!
169 - Dead ringer
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/site_imagery/quentin_letts_140×140.jpg
And clearly a short arse.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3568/3404253192_16aed5e134.jpg
On the tolkien line much of it also comes from the Icelandic sagas. The Dwarves have more in common with Icelandic legends than they do with Semitic origins
167- I’m sure it will, actually. Israel obviously doesn’t want to make any concessions, and the evaporation of prospects for an improvement in Iranian relations with the West as well as a retrenchment of the Iranian regime into extremism (which is to be expected in the aftermath of all this) gives Israel cause for greater alarm and reason to view its regional environment more cautiously. Result: greater reluctance to make concessions toward an overall peace that seems increasingly unlikely.
Note: Israel must see everything it does vis a vis Palestine in the greater framework of the Middle East. To narrowly view the Palestinian problem as just about Palestine would be a mistake.
166 worrying suggestion of Farmy Farm in that review - is Ann a lurker here?
What a bizarrely surreal thread this has been this evening!
And on that note - night everyone, I’ll try not to have nightmares about fairy tales, nazis, adulterous politicians, short blokes, anti-semetic elves, voting irregularities, and counterfeit cars!
On topic:
Bercow as PM?
I think we can recycle SeanT’s memorable response to Mike’s suggestion that Kitty Usher might be a future Labour PM:
No.
No no no no no no no
No.
No. NO. NO NO NO NO NO NO. Nyet. Non. Nein. Nnnnnnnnnnoh!
No.
Nope.
Nopey nope.
No.
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO.
nO. Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!
Nah.
by seanT September 12th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Political anoraking is sad enough but add in a a layer of Tolkein and we reach a level of “sad” hithertoo unsurpassed.
168- Which makes it seem strange that the Obama administration would have attempted to extend an olive branch to Khamenei/Ahmadinejad just before the elections, given how it could backfire like this. But regardless, the international environment after the brutal repression in Iran has been completed is likely to be such that any hopes for diplomatic progress with Iran must have been set back at least several years. Throwing the nuclear factor into the mix, it could get even uglier than it already is.
161. Just idiotic. I said upthread Tolkien’s distillation of Jewish characteristics into “Gollum” was quite possibly unwitting, and maybe it was. It is arguable Tolkien was unaware that he himself was drawing on an unsavoury ancient European archetype.
But he was.
Only a moron could fail to see stark parallels between anti-Semitic caricatures of Tolkien’s era (and many other eras), and the grasping, avaricious, gold-obsessed, hunched, two-faced Yiddishing Spiegel, sorry Smeagol, sorry Golem, sorry Gollum.
Tolkien even physically describes Gollum as being pale skinned, wearing dark clothes, and being often seen in a poor light: the scuttling orthodox Jew of the shtetl, in his black hat and black cloak.
There is no debate.
FWIW I do not believe Tolkien was racist. He just drew deeply on the unconscious, which is possibly what makes his books so powerful (to many), but that also means he allowed in unconscious archetypes.
Such as Gollum.
Front pages..only 5 so far
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Thursdays-Papers—Newspaper-Front-Pages-June-25-2009/Media-Gallery/200906415318253?lpos=UK_News_Left_Promo_Region_0&lid=GALLERY_15318253_Thursdays_Papers_-_Newspaper_Front_Pages_June_25%2C_2009
170 -2? she must be feeling generous
Heres a full transcript of mark Sanford press conference.
It makes David Mellors farm gate experience seem almost comfortable.
But I — I guess where I’m trying to go with this is that there are moral absolutes, and that God’s law indeed is there to protect you from yourself. And there are consequences if you breach that. This press conference is a consequence.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2009/06/24/ST2009062402745.html
re 148 if you’re that size - as I am - the extra 3/4 inch is vital
179. Sneaky, hunched avaricious types go back to the beginning of folklore. Gremlins, trows, grylas etc. I know you are particularly fascinated with race and racial stereotypes Sean, but your case here is pretty weak.
98 Me
Thanks for that link - it’s a very interesting article about Osborne’s public spending plans.
Telegraph give Labour another slap
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/5626457/The-collapse-of-private-pensions-is-a-catastrophe-only-the-Tories-can-tackle.html
“Telegraph View: Labour policies have left British private pensions in ruins.”
Yep, that about sums it up, thanks Labour
186. 99.9% of IFA’s think Brown is and always has been a total disaster for the financial well being of the UK personal/public financial health.
That Telegraph leader is right on the money but years late in appearing. This too is an eloquent summary of his main clangers - take point 5 on his 10k corporation tax stunt…
http://timesbusiness.typepad.com/money_weblog/2009/06/gordons-10-worst-financial-gaffs.html
I remember that well, the next budget he boasted how many companies in the UK had been incorporated and this was a testimony to his great vision for UK entrepreneurs and fostering of small firms in the UK.
Except it wasn’t.
I once was in a huge hall for an IFA conference, the presenter started by saying ‘I don’t know about you, but I think our Chancellor is a bear with very little brains’… no one argued and it’s how I’ve thought of him ever since…
179 - but what has this to do with John Bercow, whatever you think of his abilities or not, the continual comparisons to golem are offensive. This insidious anti-semitism is disgusting, although not surprising, what the f are the “jewish characteristics” you refer to? I do not care what religion John Bercow is, I do care very much how well he performs as Speaker because I believe the post is important. If he fails it will be because he is not up to the job, not because of his background.
Do not use these smears to mask discussion on his shortcomings, and do not dare suggest criticism of him is because of his religion. This thread is becoming unnerving and frightening.
Some real pseudo-intellectual w*nk from our resident wealh this evening.
Didn’t Hayek refer to journalists as ’second hand dealers in ideas’? On the basis of the above I think we are in Arthur Daley territory.
186. Not been funny but everything Labour have done other than the minuim wage and gay relationships ( Neither of which apply to me has done any good or are applicable to me! I just hope the gay legislation has made folk it applies to happy! Or even feel equal) otherwise what have have Labour done? Nothing lasting other than public debt for stuff many do not see any improvement! Seriously If you went into a time machine to 1996 - what benifits would 12 years of Labour give you? I am damned if i can think of anything other than civil partnershios whilst not impactimg me i do have cousins/ distant relations who have “settled Down” due to it!
189. Sorry i forgot one thing - sell out to europe which means higher taxes!
189. Tax credits? Buying votes, but a vital lifeline to broen Britain and arguably a cause
189- There must be a lot of special interests that have benefited, even if the country as a whole was a much better place in 1997 than it is today.
“Brown ditches plan to get public to bail out MPs’ pensions”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1195347/Brown-ditches-plan-public-bail-MPs-pensions.html
189. Devolution?
191. But will that be lasting?
To my mind and someone who qualified for them it just meant doing what working hours demanded and no overtime as you might end up paying it back! ( I have experience of that) That is the problem with tax credits if you have a veriable income or a place of work with unpredictable overtime! What happens is folk only revise it end of tax year or later when it hurts!
Sure you can change it mid year but your income may dip again! Not everybody follows stuff closely to their advantage! When i got them before doing financial adviser qualifications i just thought they were yearly! Many folk have assumed the same and been caught short! To my mind whilst tax credits mean maybe some folk paying no income tax it would be better to do it as pay as you earn! Less likely to have a problem!
192. Stars and Stripes
But who are they unless it is immigrants?
I dont want to sound harsh but what have they done? Sod all as far as i can se!
196- It might be hard to say for immigrants too, though. They’re happy at first that they got into the country, but often they end up less happy in their new home than they were before they came. Thus, you can’t presume that the lot of immigrants has really improved just because they’re there.
189
Trashed the constitution. ID Cards. Targets. 48 days. Fines for putting a leaflet in the glass box. Fines for minding your own business. ASBOs. Iraq. BNP. MP arrested for political motives. Postal voting. Postal voting fraud on an industrial scale. and on and on.
“How Brown has been humiliated by Mandy the manipulator”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1195360/STEPHEN-GLOVER-How-Brown-humiliated-Mandy-manipulator.html
Isn’t strange that Mandelson, knowing how weak Brown is, thought he could hold a private inquiry?
200. I have yet to see a compulsory ID card in the UK, for years of saying they will be introduced!
185. As someone who doesnt go looking for jewish stereotypes in the media, i still get a certain feeling of ‘uhmm’ when we see the Ferengi race on Star Trek Nrxt Gen, Voyager and Deep space nine. And What about those hook nosed goblins on Harry Potter guarding all the gold at the bank?
seanT is just winding people up as usual. Tolkien flatly denied any allegorical intent whatever, see e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory
“Public spending: hard truths”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/25/editorial-public-spending-labour
204. Is there anything to identify the Ferengi as Jewish though? Anything beyond them simply being obsessed with profit?
In the last day, the Iranian government has apparently sent Neda’s family fleeing into the hills while state-sponsored thugs shot a pregnant woman. Not only that, but the bullet went through the nearly-born baby, which you can see for yourself in the internet if you have the stomach for it. And to top it all off, the government has supposedly listed the official cause of death of the woman as “child birth.”
I can’t see Obama, or anybody else, making much progress in negotating with such people for the foreseeable future. I suppose a miracle could still happen and the mullahs could lose control of the country, but this possibility is looking less likely every day.
180
Tolkien’s concerns and influences were very different from your own. To suggest that Gollum = Golem and that he didn’t even notice is just an insult to his professionalism.
Of course one could suggest that some Englishmen feel a profound sense of guilt over the history of English anti-Semitism which in turn induces a deep sense of shame. One could even suggest they project this shame on to third parties and resolve the resulting conflicts by subsuming their identity in to a pan-European one.
Long distance psychoanalysis is fun!
204. They’re gnomes, as in “gnomes of Zurich”. They’re a parody of the Swiss,not the Jews.
As well as the secret banking, they also got rich during the previous wizard war by staying neutral and trading with both sides. Not everything is about the Jews you know…
207. According to Marx, that would be enough. Profit is the God of the jews, claimed marx…. He didnt like them much, despite his family origins being jewish.
190,205. Duh. Spot the non-writers. The straight men. The Muggles*. Messrs Runnymede, Socrates and Palmer.
WHO TAKE IT ALL LITERALLY.
Derrrr.
Anyone who trawls the subconscious for a living - i.e. a writer, an artist - knows exactly what I’m on about. Tolkien’s books have the power they do because they drill into the root canal of the European psyche.
Any artist who denies his work is an allegory should fall immediately under suspicion of having written an allegory. No writer will ever say his work is an allegory because it sounds pompous, for a start; and the best allegories are, of course, unwitting, anyway.
But if you are aware the accusation can be made, and go so far as to stridently deny it… hmmm….
*JKRowling is an interesting example. The Harry Potter books are an allegory of the child born an artist to inartistic parents. The Muggles are the tedious strait-laced mathematical humourless bourgeois narrowminded non artistic types - your runnymede, or your Nick Palmer, say.
The wizards are the artists, poets and painters born in a bourgeois family of ghastly Palmers and runnymedes, kids who feel out of sorts, almost adopted, and yearn to escape to stage school or art college, full of likeminded crazy people: Hogwarts.
212 In any case, the intentions of the author are always irrelevant in the interpretation of their work. The only thing that matters is the text that they have written. Hence the Death of the Author.
212. I thought Nick Palmer had written a book or two? And before you say it was only non-fiction, there must be a joke somewhere about his campaign literature.
Funnily enough I came here planning to say - off topic, a word about John Bercow. But that would be silly seeing as it’s on-topic. I think he’s had a touch of panache about him so far, and he’s evidently determined to be even-handed. Don’t know what all the fuss was about, really. I dare say Michael Fabricant isn’t best pleased with him after PMQs, but at least the joke wasn’t about his wig…
The Herald reports that, ex or not, blogger Grant Thoms or “Tartan Hero” the front runner to be the SNP’s candidate in the Glasgow North East by-election has withdrawn at the 11th hour. Despite previously stating he would put himself forward, Glasgow councillor Grant Thoms has now told party bosses he will not run after all.The unexpected decision leaves the SNP scrabbling for a candidate ahead of a selection meeting due next week.
This may (o may not) affect the SNP chances in the by-election.
213. Quite so.
For instance, I doubt JKRowling herself was aware of the obvious allegorical slant to her books - the artistic kid born to tedious inartistic parents. But it’s still there, and to blatant to be deniable.
This may sound daft, that writers can write stuff they didn’t even realise they were writing, but it’s true. I’ve had people point out connotations and associations in my books that I never consciously intended, but on reflection, did exist, and probably (necessarily?) sprang from some SUBconscious impulse.
215. It may be a blessing in disguise for the SNP if he really did make disparaging comments about Catholic schools on his blog. Blogging and political ambition really don’t seem to mix, do they? Iain Dale, Tom Harris, etc, etc.
There’s a danger of looking for what you want in Tolkein’s archetypes.
To quote someone upthread (sorry lost number) “The Dwarves have more in common with Icelandic legends than they do with Semitic origins”.
The thing is that these old Germanic myths were appropriated quite extensively by that raging old anti-Semite Richard Wagner. (He may well have seen the Nibelungens as Jews). Given the cultural potency of Wagner on western thought (to say nothing of that exercised by his most high-profile admirers) we’re always in danger of looking at these Nordic myths through that prism.
If the actual Vikings, who believed in elves and trolls and all of that, had any dealings with Jews it was probably only in the buying and selling of Slavic slaves somewhere in France or the Crimea. As for Tolkein, I suspect he was probably closer to Ragnar Lodbrok than Richard Wagner in this regard.
The trouble is that Wagner was by far the greater artist (Lord of the Rings is basically the Ring Cycle with all the good bits removed) which is why a fair few of us are mixing up the two.
Jon Craig on Boulton&Co - Left Triumph Ahead Of Iraq Vote
I am sure he will be satisfied with his gauranteed seat in the Lords.
216. There’s sub-conscious Sean, and then there’s suggesting he accidentally made a anti-semitic character with a lingusitc Jewish reference i.e. Gollum/Golem.
Death of the Author is not carte blanche to declare any connection you like definitive. Like the HAL/IBM connection flagged up or Kimba/Simba.
Labourlist has the details of an hour-long interview by Tony Blair
http://www.labourlist.org/tony_blairs_interview_with_vanity_fair
I’ve just arrived and I haven’t yet read through the threads yet, but I laughed when the previous thread was asking whether Patrick Hall (Bedford) would ask a planted question or not - it so happened that he was cut off by Speaker Bercow before he had a chance to ask the planted question (because he was being too long-winded), but Gordon Brown answered it anyway! I never realised that Our Great Leader was telepathic!
Just clocking on for work here in Manila.
What an interesting thread today. I hadn’t really thought too much about LOTR or Harry Potter in these terms before. I suspect Sean T is right and that there some subconscious stereotyping going on.
Was Sauron Hitler? Or the Kaizer?
Mike,
I’ve also noticed that there is a third Patrick posting on PB now. Me, another Patrick and Patrick West Ham Fan. Patrick WHF always puts the WHF element after the Patrick so we know who he is. The new Patrick is just Patrick same as me (although I guess I post here way more than the new Patrick does). I wouldn’t want the new Patrick to get an earful from Roger because of something nasty I said about our moron Prime Minister!
Do you have any policy on identity duplication? I’ll invite the other new Patrick to out something else after the Patrick to help distinguish or if he doesn’t want to I’m quite happy to start posting as Patrick W.
…oh no…that would be confusing with WHF wouldn’t it! (My surname is Whittome).
Just watched PMQ’s again, and overall I think the new speaker did OK. It’ll be very interesting to see if the current government take any notice re not pre announcing stuff in the media before doing so in the house. Personally I can’t see it , they been given too much leeway for far too long to change now, it’s just not in their nature… espcially GB. He obviously doesn’t listen to anyone except the dark lord.. and we all know he is too manipulative to take any notice. PMQ’s was more or less as expected, but I hope Cameron will move onto other issues. I think he has won that round and the 10% cuts mantra is wearing a bit thin now.
7,19,35,89 and others. Just to clarify, it was a light-hearted post looking at what I thought were the interesting historical precedents of three 18th and 19th century Speakers elected at a young age who all later became PM. Do I think John Bercow will emulate them? Er,no. But one of the great things about blogging (as opposed to newspaper commentary) is that you can sometimes pose these sorts of questions without (most) people taking it too seriously.