Who’s winning the Dave-Gord numbers war?
June 24th, 2009
Will voters get bored by the details?
Yet again today’s PMQ was dominated by the Tory leader trying to get the PM to admit that his answers a week ago and other public statements on cuts were not accurate. He was, in fact, being called a liar.
The Tory strategy seems to be two-fold - to portray Brown as untrustworthy through his use of “dodgy” numbers and to get over that Labour is having to make cuts as well.
The BBC’s 1pm news reported this in terms of a concession by Brown although it didn’t sound like that.
Given the overwhelming nature of the economy the numbers debate is going to dominate political debate for months - the question is who will win?
The challenge for Cameron is to get over his argument in a manner that engages the public and that can be challenging - particularly in the face of Brown’s way of expressing and using figures. And from Brown’s perspective the continued pursuit of the argument by the Tories just provides another peg for him to make his “Labour invests - the Tories cut” point. Clearly he thinks he is onto a winner with this line.
In the meantime Brown is reported to be facing problems within his own cabinet over his approach and use of figures. For the first time we are getting suggestions of dissent - perhaps a sign of his own weakened position.
Mike Smithson
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First
If the voters get bored, surely that will be to the detrement of Brown, who is relying on the cuts vs investment theme to see him through?
Third?
deferred success?
I think the PM’s tactics shores up the Labour core but alienates the undecided as it is quite obviously dishonest.
I think Cameron caught him with his pants down today and exposed the weakness of the PM’s decision. I thought Danny Finkelstein’s article this morning in the Times was very perceptive in saying that Brown is still stuck in the 1992-4 period, haunted by the 1992 defeat.
At least Obama isn’t afraid to make a joke about how completely the mainstream media are in the tank for him [FYI, Brian Williams is the anchor of NBC Nightly News]:
“A few nights ago, I was up tossing and turning, trying to figure out exactly what to say,” Obama said at the annual Radio and Television Correspondents Association dinner. “Finally, when I couldn’t get back to sleep, I rolled over and asked Brian Williams what he thought.”
6. Do you think that eventually the media will tire of Obama’s assumption that they are all on his side?
FPT - Ooh anyone at CCHQ want to suggest what you are looking for in a press officer? I see there’s a job going. I think I would be jolly interested.
8 - I know how to apparently fill the form in so badly they don’t even let me know my application was unsuccessful, if that helps
I know I’m bored of all this number-squabbling, and we’ve still got 10 months until the election!
Gordon is going to be asked about his ‘misleading statements’ until such time as he admits he was wrong. Now when is the spending review due?
Those who are dyed in the wool labour, and feel that high government spending is in itself ‘A Good Thing’ will continue to back Brown, but otherwise his 1960s world view is beginning to look a bit jaded and unrealistic, and his spending utterings, contradicted by his government’s own figures, are clearly at variance with the truth, for all to see.
He’s dug himself a big hole, and is still digging…
Finally watched PMQs in toto. I agree with the remarks prethread - Cammo wasn’t that good - it’s just that Brown was so bad. He consistently loses his temper and he simply can’t admit mistakes (as we all know) - so he looks like an idiot.
How can he not understand this, and learn from it?
Who’s winning? At the moment, neither. I don’t think the public really trusts Brown but at the same time his ‘10%’ message might be having an effect, in part because there is an element of truth to it (the Tories will cut spending) and in part because of memories of the 1980s and 1990s - in some cases those were false memories (NHS spending rose massively under Thatcher), but they’re still there in the popular mind.
The whole point is that the public will get bored and/or confused by disputes over cuts.
Danny Finkelstein’s article analyses the politics very well:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article6564980.ece
There are three lessons that the 1992 campaign has taught Mr Brown that he is now trying to turn to his advantage.
The first is that John Smith’s 1992 shadow budget, which laid out Labour’s tax and spending figures before the general election, was a fiasco. This taught him that the biggest vulnerability for an opposition is the figures that it has to issue in a campaign. The more openly it issues these figures, the more vulnerable it is. So all of his campaigns while in office have been designed to force the Conservatives to issue something like a shadow budget. He then spends the campaign attacking their figures.
The second lesson is that the Conservative “tax bombshell” campaign - which argued that Labour’s spending plans would push up taxes - was dastardly, but worked. This is their justification for spinning - I have heard Labour’s hardest operators refer to it many times in their own defence - and proof that making up a figure and then pushing it and pushing it is effective politics.
The third lesson is that the real thing you are exploiting with such made up figures is not concern about the tax and spending itself, but is trust. The Conservatives won in 1992 because, even though lots of people wanted more spending on public services, they didn’t trust Labour and Mr Kinnock to spend their money.
So Cameron is responding by refusing to play Brown’s game, and to turn the ‘trust’ issue firmly back towards Brown.
Cameron will win this argument.
Neither Dave nor Gord is winning the numbers war.
Nick Clegg is head and shoulders above both of them.
Well I would say that wouldn’t I !!
7- That’s a great question. After all, they have as much pride as anyone else who considers himself/herself to be a professional, if not more. It can’t be entirely pleasant to have even the object of your affections scoring comedy points off your sycophancy.
On the other hand, there are currently no signs of the love affair abating. There are a few quality journalists who do their jobs in spite of their liberalism, most notably Jake Tapper of ABC News, but yet at Obama’s press conference yesterday we saw Obama answer and obviously planted question with the Huffington Post serving as the vehicle of the collaboration:
“In what appeared to be a coordinated exchange, President Obama called on the Huffington Post’s Nico Pitney near the start of his press conference and requested a question directly about Iran.
“Nico, I know you and all across the Internet, we’ve been seeing a lot of reports coming out of Iran,” Obama said, addressing Pitney. “I know there may actually be questions from people in Iran who are communicating through the Internet. Do you have a question?”
Pitney, as if ignoring what Obama had just said, said: “I wanted to use this opportunity to ask you a question directly from an Iranian.”
Reporters typically don’t coordinate their questions for the president before press conferences, so it seemed odd that Obama might have an idea what the question would be. Also, it was a departure from White House protocol by calling on The Huffington Post second, in between the AP and Reuters.
CBS Radio’s Mark Knoller, a veteran White House correspondent, said over Twitter it was “very unusual that Obama called on Huffington Post second, appearing to know the issue the reporter would ask about.”
According to POLITICO’s Carol Lee, The Huffington Post reporter was brought out of lower press by deputy press secretary Josh Earnest and placed just inside the barricade for reporters a few minutes before the start of the press conference.”
http://www.politico.com/blogs/michaelcalderone/0609/Obama_calls_on_HuffPost_for_Iran_question_Page2.html
For now, the mainstream media still live to serve their darling.
SeanT
We spend summer in the South of France; beautiful breezes with sunny days.
We spend spring and fall in our home in North Dakota where both are pretty and the air generally dry enough to keep my rheumatoid at bay, this Spring sadly was cold.
Our winters are spent in Florida, although Thailand and Laos in November were delightful. We’ve enjoyed May in South Africa, when its dry and April in Northern Australia [again 'the dry'] is quite lovely.
We keep coming back into the country at odd times and are delighted to be here on this beautiful June day. As one gets old the weather plays a very important part in one’s daily life.
Brown has no case to make for his Premiership - other than as “Britain’s Economic Saviour”. Much like Chris Moyles was the self-styled “Saviour of Radio 1″, but with an extra side-order of vomit.
Of course Cameron is going to hammer Brown as a delusional liar who cannot accept a single word of criticism of His Great Works. Cameron will hammer away, dawn til dusk, now until May 2010. Why not? It is a sobriquet Brown might think he deserves, but there are plenty of people who can still be convinced that the man is in fact a deranged loon. It may yet bring down Brown. Great victory for Cameron if so - he brought down the Labour leader said he would not resign, but who Cameron demonstrated had lied and lied and lied and lied - and wouldn’t face up to the hard decisions that 12 years of Labour misrule required. Of course, if Gordon just digs a deep basement in the Bunker, then Cameron wins too.
9 - I hate it when organisations do that. The last two times I’ve applied to work for the Tories they have actually written to say no!
FPT, “Ooh anyone at CCHQ want to suggest what you are looking for in a press officer? I see there’s a job going. I think I would be jolly interested.
by David Roe June 24th, 2009 at 2:36 pm”
David, go for it, and stick your PB.com credentials on the CV too. If you can handle the heat on here, the political lobby will be a piece of cake.
Best of luck.
Cameron is speaking to the growing belief in the media that Brown does not tell the truth. He did it by focusing on Brown’s inability to admit a mistake. It is Brown’s poor decision taking that is being exposed.
He could have made the same point about the Iraq enquiry.
17. I guess it will be very hard for many in the media to turn their back on Obama; after all he tickles so many of their happy places, I guess the question is whether their professional pride, as you put it, and self-respect overrides their joy at finally having a liberal icon in the White House.
O/T The biggest plus for Cameron and Osborne, getting the level of public debt to resonate with the voters last year. It makes their case for honesty and public spending cuts more palatable with the voters at this time, and positions them as strong on making the necessary decisions.
It also makes Gordon Brown look shifty, out of touch, full of spin and just plain dishonest.
The big problem Labour has is that no-one is listening to them anymore.
15
Cameron has gone further; Cameron has issued Brown’s Budget.
The figures are the governments and is what the government is really doing.
23- That day never came for JFK, even before his icon status zoomed to the stratosphere after his assassination. In a way, for the mainstream media types to attack Obama would be to attack themselves (at least in their way of thinking) because they identify so completely with the idea of Obama. Given that reality, I can’t see them being motivated to do their jobs anytime soon.
15.”So Cameron is responding by refusing to play Brown’s game, and to turn the ‘trust’ issue firmly back towards Brown.
Cameron will win this argument.”
Richard, I agree. Cameron and Osborne have been consistently 2/3 steps ahead of Brown for the last 12 months.
21 - I’m certainly applying. I just wondered if one of the regulars was in CCHQ and could put a word in for me! I’m shameless like that
24 Agree. I think the most effective politcal poster of recent years has been last autumn’s “Dad’s eyes; mum’s nose; Gordon’s debt”. Absolute killer.
Mike “from Brown’s perspective the continued pursuit of the argument by the Tories just provides another peg for him to make his “Labour invests - the Tories cut” point. Clearly he thinks he is onto a winner with this line”
I suspect you have got this wrong! By now Brown may recognise that he may not win on the Tory cuts argument but he only has 2 options:-
1. Admit he is wrong but this would be completely out of character for him or
2. carry on lying hoping Cameron will give up on this line of attack and at least muddy the waters meantime.
Interestingly, the headline about the OECD report on the BBC website is now “UK economy ’set to shrink faster’”
Numbers don’t resonate with voters at all. Cameron could go on TV and demonstrate that 2+2 = 4 not 5 as Brown stated in the Commons, and few people would get it. Perception not facts has always been the key, and that is what both sides are going for.
I think the fundamental question is the public’s level of desire to slash spending. If they want to see punitive cuts in services to hit a notional acceptable level of public debt, then the Tories are onto a winner. if they don’t care about public debt at all as long as things get back to normal then Labour are onto a winner.
The problem I have with the argument of both sides is that none of the numbers are factual. The levels of public debt claimed by the Tories and its effect on us is patently untrue. The unending ability of government to continue spending regardless of tax incomes as claimed by Brown is patently untrue. What will swing the argument one way or another is the performance of the economy.
If things continue to pick up and we exit recession quickly as forecast, then we can expect tax revenues to surge back as they do after every recession. At which point the green book becomes a historical document rather than fact and everyone’s figures need to be redone. Similarly if the banking sector recovers and we get to sell them off at a profit - something else not factored into the green book. Or things stay bad for longer or even get worse than they are, and the green book is wrong the other way.
Whatever happens, both sides having a liar liar pants on fire shouting match every week is beyond futile - the winners will be the growning ranks of the disenfranchised sick to death of the whole lot of them. If the Tories cannot publish their own spending plans because they don’t know what state the economy will be in when they take over, then logically the same must be true of any Labour forecasts over the same time period. Both sides are arguing over figures which both sides know are wrong. It’d be pathetic if it wasn’t so funny.
Has anyone been on to the BBC as the recession story is now headlined “UK economy ’set to shrink faster’”?
and on topic Brown has always had problems over “his approach and use of figures”. Just consider all the fuss over the knife crimes lies, sanctioned, by No 10, peddled by Smith last year.
“If things continue to pick up and we exit recession quickly as forecast, then we can expect tax revenues to surge back as they do after every recession”
*cough*see post 32*cough
re 14 his ‘10%’ message might be having an effect
David that must be why Labour’s down another 4% in yesterday’s MORI poll then.
34 - not so Pravda now!
I won’t get bored with the details but I’m already bored with Brown’s lack of provision of current detail. The endless quoting of figures from the past are tedious.
It’s quite obvious figures are his security blanket and if he throws them around enough he thinks he’ll baffle the population. Instead they just think he’s ignorant and lying. Funny that.
37 - that MORI really is an absolute killer. A lot of organisations are telling the numbers incorrectly - showing Labour moving from 18 to 21. But they are missing out the poll in between, which showed Labour surge 7 from 18 to 25. So, rather than Labour gaining ground after the Euros, we saw a bit of normal swing back towards them, and then a huge dent in their numbers when people remembered why they didn’t like them.
Any chance Labour have of winning the war of words over the economy will be lost when Mandelson starts pushing for the Euro again.
Loss of interest rates; examples of Spain and Ireland- will provide the Tories with a great big stick to hit the government with and the public are more eurosceptic than they were in 2001, I believe.
36 - cough - see OECD forecasts ad nauseum for a demonstration how everything they have said about this recession so far has been wrong. Frankly that goes for all of them - the only numbers you can rely on are actuals, and in April & May we grew whereas the other countries didn’t.
And if the OECD is your thing, note that they say we’ll do better than the Eurozone and Japan. I do love these forecasts - its choose your own headline!
Brown will lose this one. Whether it works to the advantage of Cammo is open to debate but frankly right now all he needs to do is keep beating Brown down. Governments lose elections, oppositions don’t win them.
Interesting on the 1,2 and 3o’clock news bulletins on Classic FM they have each opened with DC accusing GB of misleading the country and parliament over the Government’s spending plans.
Chris A sorry to hear June Aberdeen has died. She was a remarkable lady. I served on her committee when she was CHairman of the Musical Society of the Order of St John in Scotland. She was famous for the Haddo House Opera performances which she instituted, having a theatre in the grounds of Haddo House. Sadly she had no children of her own but adopted several so if I am correct the Marquessate was inherited firstly by her brother-in-law and then on his death by another brother-in-law.
27. Thanks. Had Kennedy lived longer or had he lived in a less forgiving age the media may have turned against him I suppose. But I tink you are right in your point that Obama reflects so much of themselves and their values that the media are unlikely to ever really turn on him.
Am I right in thinking that liberals in the US are less likely to turn on liberals, whereas conservatives will kick the hell out of each other? Over here, of course, the media of left and right and never happier when they are criticising their own side.
40 - David, due to differing methodologies the only direct comparatives you can do poll vs poll are withing the individual polling companies. Or you do a scatter chart and plot the average using weighting as they do over on UK Polling Report.
Either way, the Tory lead has noticably narrowed over the course of this year - its still 12-15% but its no longer the 18-20% they had comfortably.
Not a single minister in H/C during Iraq debate.
“And if the OECD is your thing, note that they say we’ll do better than the Eurozone and Japan”
Actually, they show Japan returns to growth before we do, and that we end up matching the Eurozone at zero by 2011. Hardly exiting a recession quickly, is it.
44. Carter cut a pretty hapless figure by the end, as I recall, and got plenty of stick from his own side. But Obama will have to make some very serious mistakes indeed to get to a similar position.
Obama benefits to some extent by the complete horror show of his predecessor. Gives him a lot of capital.
20 - no response is awful, but a half-hearted one is even worse. I once applied for a job in an area where, for the most part, applications were done through a central online system. This particular employer didn’t use this system, and insisted on people filling in a hand-written form. I’m dyslexic, so such forms take me a bit longer than usual, as I have to be very careful. But I didn’t make a fuss. I filled in the form - all 24 pages of it, and it took me about two full days to do it. I sent if off, and in doing so had to send a SAE in which they could send their letter back to me. I should point out that I had to send another SAE to request the form in the first place. When I got the reply, it was a letter comprised of one line of rejection, was on the cheapest paper I’ve ever seen, and contained neither my name nor an actual signature - one was photocopied onto it. I wrote them a letter back saying I’m glad I didn’t get the job, because there’s no way I’d enjoy working for people who treat job applicants with such utter disdain.
When the PM lies to parliament - its worth drawing it to the nations attention
Ain’t politics depressing these days? Each party is skirmishing about the precise meaning and value of cuts and neither has any coherent vision of the future. Each party portrays itself only in relative terms, relative to the other party. We’re better than x/y.
Do business succeed if their aspirations are limited to being a bit less crap than their opponents?
“Each party is skirmishing about the precise meaning and value of cuts and neither has any coherent vision of the future. ”
There’s only one party that’s unsure what the meaning of “cuts” is……
45 - I’m not comparing different polls - I’m comparing it with another MORI that was done in between the 18% one and this latest 21% one. Just for some reason a lot of papers etc seem to forget that one existed.
44- That is a fairly broad characterization, but on the whole liberals in the U.S. tend to be considerably more “tribal,” not just in media ranks but in all ranks. A breaking point will always come if things get bad enough, but conservatives tend to reach their breaking point and reject their own much more quickly than liberals.
A comprehensive study was done recently where it was determined that conservatives are able to pretty accurately describe how liberals really think, while liberals were much less able to articulate how a conservative really thinks. I believe this inability of liberals to ascribe correct motives to their opponents gives rise to an extraordinary fear, which causes them to rally to their own at (nearly) all costs lest the dreaded conservatives find some advantage. Conservatives, on the other hand, are less likely to see their opponents in such stark terms (e.g., seeing them as misguided but not necessarily evil), which makes them less afraid to call out their own when they perform badly, advance bad ideas, or betray their principles.
There is a significant upside and downside of all this for Democrats, since they are accordingly more cohesive and more likely to ride out storms together, but on the other hand are less likely to jettison bad actors within their ranks when it would be advisable to do so.
53 Well the Tories position on cuts is pretty disingenuous. Beyond ID cards, they promote the need for cuts, but fail to identify any areas of government they want to stop or scale back. If they want to reduce the size of government, they need to show people where.
Abstract and esoteric cuts are one thing, meaningful reductions in government activity is quite another. And we’ve heard very little about that.
An incredibly strong speech by Michael Mates MP.
55, interesting to read that and compare it to the propensity of our main left and right wing parties when it comes to axing leaders.
48. Carter was never really a classic northern liberal though in the way Kennedy and Obama are and Clinton was in mindset.
55. As you say, it’s a broad generalisation but thanks for the info on the study, very interesting. I think there is a similar phenomenon over here, in that, again a generalisation but, liberals here find it harder, or try less, to understand the mindset of those on the right. A classic example is Euroscepticism, which liberals regard as an unshakeable nostrum and believe that all Eurosceptics are xenophobes and never engage with the most powerful argument against European integration which is self-determination and the democratic deficit.
FPT #507
My sincere best wishes David, but in order to land a job at CCHQ shouldn’t one first and foremost be a member of the party or at the very least a committed Tory voter?
60 In David Cameron’s case it took a phone call from The Palace.
I dunno, I got the impression that Labour’s front bench do not expect Gordon Brown to be standing there for PMQs that many months longer - certainly not in January, 2010.
60 This comment applies also to post #8 of this thread.
Just got round to watching this, very interesting.
So which newspaper was it that wanted to use the Expenses File to destroy which party?
http://page.politicshome.com/uk/_expenses_revelations_middleman_on_his_role.html
64 It was a vendetta against the Lib Dems.
I have discovered the most brilliant piece of unwitting satire ever to enlighten the interweb. Behold (from LabourList, of course):
“Labour have to push through some form of electoral reform – anything is better than our current system – in order to have a fighting chance at the next General Election. They won’t want to look out of touch with the electorate who are desperate to see real change at the heart of our democracy.”
“We need to allow Labour a chance to recover before the next General Election, otherwise we’ll see an almightily powerful Tory administration, not too dissimilar to Labour in 1997: able to go to the Commons and force legislation through. Without a strong opposition we effectively elect a dictatorship.”
As opposed to having a coronation?
http://www.labourlist.org/no_dave_we_dont_need_a_general_election_shane_croucher
Warning: do not read this if you have a heart condition or broken ribs. The laughter-induced pain may very well be terminal.
55. http://www.cafepress.com/warposter/89951
(sorry!)
65. By the Indy?
50 Had a chat with Virgin Atlantic HR a few years back - their HR Dept is objectivised on customer service so they reply to every job enquiry in a set time, IIRC those that get through initial sift but are then unsuccessful get a reply with vouchers for other Virgin products, a thank you for your interest and marketing ploy combined. Branson’s philosophy is that he can’t afford to p**s off potential customers and with hundreds of applicants unsuccessful there are a lot who could badmouth Virgin if they are unhappy (and 10 people on average hear how bad a company is from unhappy customers).
68 By the Beano…
67- That’s a fine looking young gentleman! Can I sign up for the party he represents?
64 Catholic Herald and the DUP?
66
Democracy?
Just a cunning ploy by the Tories to keep Labour from power.
Mervyn King lays into Labour again…
http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2009/06/truly-extraordinary-deficit-mervyn-king/
“I have discovered the most brilliant piece of unwitting satire ever to enlighten the interweb. Behold (from LabourList, of course)”
That’s nothing. This is from the Guardian talk boards:
The origin of the economic crisis that has engulfed the globe during the past two years can be traced to the 4th of May 1979 - the day on which Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.
The laissez-faire capitalism that was embraced by conservatives around the world meant that private enterprise came to dominate the economic landscape and the role of governments in this sphere of activity was greatly reduced.
It would be interesting to know, therefore, quite how Gordon Brown comes to be more the villain of the piece than any other British politician of the past thirty years, including his predecessors as both Chancellor of the Exchequer and Prime Minister.
Gordon Brown came to office and gave operational autonomy - and responsibility for monetary policy - to the Bank of England whilst maintaining a rigid adherence for two years to the levels of spending set by the departed Conservative government of John Major.
It happened thereafter that there were a number of spending commitments that could not have been previously envisaged - the two large-scale international conflicts in which the United Kingdom became embroiled which necessitated increased security measures on the domestic front due to a terrorist threat, for example and, in addition, the return of the railway system to public ownership, which had to be extended later to a failed financial services sector.
Gordon Brown did not decide one morning in September 2007 that - having finally attained the office which he had so long coveted - he would cause economic mayhem in Britain in order to divert funds from the type of government spending he had planned.
Hearing and reading conservative opinion on the matter, however, anyone would believe that Mr. Brown became Prime Minister in a vacuum and with limitless resources at his command.
It ought to be borne in mind that he inherited a culture which had become steeped over the previous two decades in the lore of the entrepreneur and what personal initative could achieve.
The effect on the British economy was colossal; the loss of whole areas of activity meant that - in compliance with the Victorian values which Mrs. Thatcher cherished - manufacturing became once more a cottage industry.
Business became based on the principle that monies for investment in some project would be sought from the private sector and it was prepared to loan only wherever it saw the potential for profit.
The British people had turned to the Labour Party to form a government in 1997 because of a general belief that the personal affluence of a few members of society had been acquired at the expense of the social need of the majority of their fellow citizens and the balance had to be redressed.
Gordon Brown was charged with finding a means of paying for an ambitious programme of capital expenditure which would meet the requirements of the public for improvements to the health, education and transport services and ensure that the fruits of prosperity were distributed on a wider and more even basis but he was confronted by a particular difficulty.
The British economy had - during the previous twenty years - become virtually mortgaged to the financial services sector and depended inordinately upon its success.
The problem of its failure is the one that the Labour government has been trying to solve since the fourth quarter of 2007.
Would the Conservatives have introduced a more rigorous regulatory regime had they won the General Election of 1997 or either one of the two subsequent national polls?
Given the past record, what does anyone suppose that the answer may be?
Regarding the matter of actual reductions to the levels of public expenditure, these are statistics and can be as anomalous as Opinion Poll results or the rate of inflation - it is a question of the criteria that are applied; a stroke of a bureaucratic pen can change the designation of what constitutes the private and public sectors for these purposes.
It may be an issue of what type of expenditure is being considered.
The Labour government would argue, for instance, that it has identified possible savings through more efficient use of current revenues.
The proposed increases in some areas of government spending under the Conservatives may not be all they appear , however; the education and health budgets could include sums to be allocated to propaganda and publicity in respect of reforms the Party intends to implement if it wins the next General Election.
Would you notice any difference between the Parties in their approach to government?
It would seem that - despite protestations of a changed demeanour - recent events show that the Conservatives remain what they have been historically, a petty, malicious organisation, contemptuous of opposing ideals, tolerating democracy as an unavoidable nuisance with an air of weary resignation.
David Cameron has spoken of offering more ‘choice’ in the education and health services in the name of diversity; it ought to be astonishing that, at a time of recession, money is going to be devoted to fostering disparity and division but it is the traditional Tory tactic of creating an interest group that becomes the base of its electoral support.
The Labour Party will claim - at least - to be more universalistic with regard to its programme and that may even inform its endeavours if it is returned to office in 2010.
67 So that’s what happened to Max Headroom…
56 Jonathan “they must show people where” - that’s the point of the Finks analysis, detail is danger. John Smith was conned by Major’s Government into producing a Shadow Budget that showed where and how Labour would finance their plans. That became the chief weapon to beat Labour with.
Trust us, we will protect the NHS, we will protect the weak and the poor, we will cut and it will be painful but we will start with waste, unnecessary activities, cancel ID cards, mark hard choices on expensive projects like Trident. Trust us.
Trust us - not like Brown who is trying to hide his plans, planning to raise taxes, waste more, make it worse. Trust us - not like Brown who U turns but refuses to admit any error, refuses to apologise. Trust us - not like Brown who tried to bribe the middle earners with money taken from the poorest by abolition of 10p tax rate etc etc.
Who do you trust, Gordon Brown or David Cameron? That’s the question really because an election is about the future not the past, so its about trusting their promises.
Lying about Debt doesn’t help does it?
75 No more strange than Tories like Hannan banging on about the 1945 welfare settlement.
52. Jonathan - the whole pension fund ‘industry’ is based on a similar approach!
64.WOW! That is dynamite! And the source wanted who ever published the info, to make sure that they didn’t do so in a partisan way?
And yet one paper wanted to do just that, now I wonder who that could possible be.
Its interesting that the haggling between various newspaper outlets appears to be over control rather than the price involved?
78. Oh, I’d keep reading. It gets better…..
New Tory attack advert - Gordon and lies - have they used this line explicitly before?
75, is that Quietzapple?
Disregard my post #83.
Quietzapple would never write, “*IF* Labour is returned to office in 2010.”
74. I like the fact that King states that government spending wasn’t even sustainable before the crisis never mind now.
How on Earth can any sensible person continue to believe that Brown was a good Chancellor of the Exchequer?
83 - That’s not the name given on the board. My two favourites bits are trying to claim that the Tories pledge to protect health spending will be accounted for by increased propaganda, and that they are merely tolerating democracy as an unavoidable nuisance.
67. Another one here: http://www.cafepress.com/warposter.11933916
80. What’s the chances that given a choice, a newspaper(s) that did have control would have approached their favoured party and done a deal - “We’ll play down your MP’s involvement and in return you….”
Colour me cynical.
Brown’s problem (well one of his problems) is that he can’t admit to mistakes.
So he’ll claim everything has been a success since 1997 and people will take a look at their own experiences and disagree.
And the bigger Brown’s lies the worse it will get for Labour.
Not to mention that Brown can’t do sincere, he looks like a liar.
89. “Not to mention that Brown can’t do sincere, he looks like a liar.”
He looks like one because he is one.
75 I assume the writer also has a treasured copy of ‘The Flat Earth - Thatcher’s Legacy’
There’s only one thing less convincing than Gordon at PMQs, and thats Daves faux anger routine.
“And say it NOW!”
Makes Henmans fist pumping look like Charlie Bronson on steroids.
82….fabulous indeed.
If you ask me this financial crisis goes back to the discovery of America. Damm you Columbus! (And the Vikings!)
92 You know you can do better than that.
C’mon Tim…
82. Co-incides with Camerons questions at PMQ’s. Conservatives are getting co-ordinated with their campaigns. Nice to see. One of the things missing from the Tories in recent election campaigns has been co-ordination. A sense they were actually running a narrative.
Ted @ 69 re Virgin recruitment.
In a previous job I failed to convince the HR director that leaving applicants sitting around for hours at a time was a bad idea because if we did not recruit them, they’d wind up working for someone else: potentially, our target customers.
95 - Lets all go up on Cameron Cliff and watch him get angry on the big screen.
96 - cometh the hour, cometh the Pickles. He gets stick in some quarters, but he’s said to be absolutely fantastic at co-ordinating teams. I think a closer relationship between what the Tories do campaign wise and what the politicians are doing on the ground is part of that.
95
“He looks like one because he is one.”
But a good liar doesn’t. Blair was a good liar.
Brown is crap at being a liar as well as all his other faults.
It’s amazing he managed to become PM.
Though any government which has Miliband as Foreign Secretary, Smith as Home Secretary and the likes of Des Browne and Bob Ainsworth as Defence Secretary during a war clearly has a deep lack of competant individuals.
On topic, the usual outcome of these spats is that loyalists’ viewpoints are reconfirmed and the uncommitted decide that both sides are correct about the other. If that holds true here, the uncommitted will decide that the Tories will cut by 10% and that Gordon Brown is a liar, and that Labour will cut also. I would call that a Tory win, since that is pretty much the current Tory position.
So, in order to get a Labour win, Gordon Brown must not only paint the Tories as cutters, he must come up with a convincing argument showing that Labour will not cut. Since the Government’s own figures show that Labour will cut, this looks like a doomed enterprise.
The short answer, therefore, is that the Conservatives are winning the numbers war.
50 - Shabby behaviour. I do hope that my experience of the past year will make me a better employer if I am ever in that position in the future.
Mind you, I don’t think Labour can go on with this 10% cuts thing much longer. Darling looked embarrased sat next to Brown this morning. The Labour benches were silent - Everyone knows Browns lying and his strategy isn’t credible. The narrative Labour are running doesn’t work and it’ll have to be put on the scrap heap before the election, maybe with Brown, too….
Back to my question - have the Official Opposition ever explicitly called HMG liars before ?
82 Plato
It’s a bit mediocre.
The “Gordon Brown’s debt” posters with the baby were excellent. I liked the one with Brown and Sarkozy falling out over the G20 set to “Je ne regrette rien” as background music too.
This one has too much writing and the message isn’t focussed.
But then again not every ad can be amazing.
87- That one’s not quite as hilarious. But as for the “spin” accusation, it is true in general that the news media is a shadow of its former self. Instead of doing the difficult work of straight news reporting and investigation, they have become lazy and self-indulgent, and pump out unoriginal partisan posturing gussied up as news.
I suppose mainstream lefties love to attack Fox to 1) discredit opinions they don’t like and 2) try to argue that they’re better than Fox. Actually, Fox has done everyone a great service by highlighting the partisan distinction between left and right in the media, something that the lefties still try to obfuscate but with ever-decreasing success.
63 - I’ve never voted for anyone else!
And the job description clearly states committed to helping the Tories win the next general election.
I’m on solid ground (ish) though obviously I would have to forego my efforts against Ms Butler.
69 - That sounds jolly sensible. Branson is not stupid.
106 I agree - I’ve seen a lot better but I guess this was knocked out in about 20 mins post PMQs to make the point tactically rather than a strategic 48 sheet outdoor poster campaign.
Some old colleagues of mine did a superb set of ads for gratis for the 2005 GE but these weren’t used in the end - shame as they were a lot better than the guff that they went with.
102- Decent analysis.
For Labour to make the Tory cuts angle work this time, they must set out where they intend to save money, and then throw the vacuum of the Tory plans back at them.
This will have two benefits.
1.Show that Labour recognise the reality, as voters do.
2.Play on the voters mistrust of “Tory Cuts”
3.Highlight that the Tories priorites so far benefit the rich and don’t add up.
110 Plato
Incidentally this is a fantastic site
http://politicaladvertising.co.uk/
It has hundreds of political ads, old and new.
OGH should definitely add it to the permanent links on the blogroll.
102 antifrank
Yes, good summary.
The other key point is the longer-term consideration for Cameron and Osborne. They won’t want to get the blame for having to take difficult decisions in their first term. So setting up the narrative as they have been doing is good in terms of winning both the 2010 election, and the one after that.
It’s also honest. For once political expediency and honesty coincide.
105 - Has a government / prime minister ever lied as often, consistently and as blatantly.
As a journo wrote, Mandleson had never told him a lie, as far as he know….
There is polishing the turd, there is spinning, there is only highlighting certain elements of a report / review / consultation, but the way Gordo is going about this whole cuts argument he has taken his Brownie approach to another level, where he just outright lying time and time and time again.
111.
4. Not lie at PMQs.
111 The Tory’s painless cuts is as a big a lie as any other alleged economy with the truth
111. Labour will have to cut all departments other than health. The situation is no differant whoever is in government. Thats the simple truth.
115 - Not even over Westland where Thatcher was accused of lying by everyone except Kinnock.
116 - the problem there is that the Tories have already said that, in some areas, the cuts will be painful. Don’t trick yourself into swallowing all Brown’s nonsense.
111 - Which is why postponing the spending review from this summer was the single worst mistake that Gordon Brown made this year. Instead of trying to pretend that cuts aren’t going to be made, Labour should have bitten the bullet and made a virtue of necessity. It’s probably too late for Labour to do this now under Gordon Brown.
I know it might horrify you to know this, but James Forsyth of the Spectator agrees with you:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3702913/what-a-ballsup.thtml
116 - When has Cameron ever said the future cuts would be painless? In fact at the spring conference he was wittering on about hard it was going to be, how the future wasn’t bright, and the media bashed him for being so negative.
The BBC had a lovely “impartial” piece all about it up on their main page for over 2 days, before somebody “corrected” it, with a tad more balance.
“So, in order to get a Labour win, Gordon Brown must not only paint the Tories as cutters, he must come up with a convincing argument showing that Labour will not cut. Since the Government’s own figures show that Labour will cut, this looks like a doomed enterprise.”
No, there is an alternative which is to say that there will have to be cuts of course, But the cuts need to be done judiciously, and causing as little pain as possible. Who do you trust to look after you more, Labour or the heartless Tories?
But that requires Brown to accept that there will be cuts and he’s made his bed on that score.
This will have Gordo breaking a few nokias…
http://blogs.news.sky.com/boultonandco/Post:de666468-ec7b-461a-abd1-96827b2c7fd5
116- Living within one’s means is always painful, particularly after one has gotten used to a lifestyle built on borrowing and false hopes.
119 But they haven’t said where. As such it’s utterly meaningless and disingenuous. Would you be happy if they halved the defence budget after the election?
85. Good to see King rowing in behind the Tory narrative. The whole establishment outside the Beeb is now pretty much lined up to get Labour out.
111 But Tim - GORDON DOESN’T INTEND TO MAKE CUTS. He is going to keep increasing spending through to 2012. If not, he had plenty of chance to set the record straight again today.
I can only assume that his bullsh*t fertiliser must be making them magic beans grow a treat…
113 - I wonder what Southam Observer makes of this. He pressed this argument strongly last year. As a Labour supporter, he must be holding his head in his hands seeing Gordon Brown doing the Conservatives’ work for them.
Oh Christ - Habitat piggy-backed on Iranian election tweets to sell furniture - PR FAIL
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8116869.stm
122 - Absolutely right, and why Gordo’s approach makes absolutely no sense!
If he stood up, and got Darling (who to his credit is hardly trying to spin this stupid line) to do the same, and said look times are hard, the global economic crisis, which began in America, big yawn…..we have to be realistic, when I was a child, my Dad told me to balance the books, live within our means and that is what I have done (lie, but never mind) for the past 12 years. However, times are hard and thus there will have to be some temporary reductions in spending…..
Then he just blasts away at kind cuts vs Evil Tory Baby Eating Cuts.
Job done, Gordo has a chance. But oh no no no “genius” Gordo always picks the RIGHT way doesn’t he!
111 The Tory’s painless cuts is as a big a lie as any other alleged economy with the truth
I would be very interested in any examples of the tories claiming that any cuts would be painless. I feel that they have gone to great length to highlight that they will be difficult. Perhaps you could provide proof for your statement
125- The Tories shouldn’t be too specific, and certainly no more specific than Labour. If Labour won’t even get around to admitting the reality that cuts will be necessary, let alone stating what will be cut, it would be folly for the Tories to start detailing cuts and pissing off various special interests. Look at the way Obama is currently proceeding on healthcare reform, still being as vague as possible to keep as many people on board for as long as possible. That’s good politics.
Walter Mondale famously said during the 1984 presidential election campaign (I paraphrase): “I will raise your taxes. So will President Reagan. But only I will tell you the truth about it.” He won one state while Reagan won the other forty-nine. Moral of the story: tax hikes and spending cuts are best approached very gingerly and vaguely, and only to the extent necessary.
131 Name a specific painful cut.
112 Thanx for the website! Love this stuff as have been involved on the fringes myself and never seen this one before.
111 tim
Your strategy wouldn’t work, because it would mean Brown accepting that Osborne and Cameron are right. In which case, why would the public trust Labour to execute the policy, when Labour have been saying it is not necessary?
Possibly if Brown had started doing what you suggest back in September of last year, it might have had a better chance of success. But he and his ministers have been telling us for six months that they’ve got it right, Brown is an economic genius, the deficit is not a problem, money grows on trees, and the Conservatives have got it wrong.
Bit of a tricky sell to switch to: ‘Er, the opposition were right all along but vote for us anyway’.
This is one important reason why I don’t think changing leader would help Labour much. They’ve invested too much political capital in an unrealistic economic policy.
128. Yes he was very prophetic about this debate. I know that he said he had lost all faith in Brown…and really wanted him to go in a thread sometime
116.”111 The Tory’s painless cuts is as a big a lie as any other alleged economy with the truth”
Jonathan, can you point in the direction of any politician who will tell us that these cuts are going to be painless?
125. I certainly wouldn’t be haooy about the defence budget being halved. But I’d be even more unhappy about the UK having to go to the IMF to keep us afloat. My view is that all bets are off as what will have to be cut and by how much. Most people haven’t even begun to graps the extent to which we’re currently in the sh*t.
120 - Forsyth is spouting what I said on here last week.
These were my specific savings.
1.Increase Capital Gains tax.
2.Raise the retirement age and introduce phased reductions in income tax so that those working beyond retirement age gradually pay less tax, down to zero at say five years beyond todays retirement age.
3.A two year Public Sector pay freeze
4.Legalisation of Illegal Immigrants bringing them in to the legal economy.
5.Decriminalisation of all drugs with the highly addictive available from the NHS and softer drugs taxed and sold.
by tim June 17th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
133 - no, you said the Tories were claiming they’d be painless. Prove it.
132 - Well also the Tories have an easy out, we don’t have access to the books / up to date figures, and are suspicious of what is hidden deep inside them and also what is the off balance sheet. Give example of one of Gordo’s off balance sheet fiddles that is costing billions a year, end of story.
The Obama tone of this issue was perfect. Basically, I don’t know what is in there, but I know it ain’t right, I know there is great wastage, and so I will get my people to go through everything, line by line, and assess what is that spending for, it is necessary, could it be better spent…
If we all watched a tv show where someone racked up a huge bill (investments?) on their parents (taxpayers) credit cards on stuff that thought would make them happy (benefits) but they couldnt afford, then after an “intervention” had to have a massive downsizing and cuts to pay back all their debts over time we’d all be cheering and saying “serves em right” - glad it’s not pain free !”
However in 2009 Labourites see the binger Brown and say - nay - let him continue spending as it would be “painful” to make any cuts.
Its the politics of “do nothing” and sticking your head in the sand.
133, Johnathon, it is your argument, you support it. It is not up to me to try and dig you out of a hole of your own making. You seem to be taking tips on debating from the Great Leader.
18. Someone who spends so little time in the UK is preciously unqualified to pass comment on it. Even less qualified to comment on what policies should govern it, since you’d be totally unaffected by them all.
So it turns out: yet another smarmy, hypocritical, hyper-rich patronising leftie.
I think we can safely discount your views in future Malcolm.
141- Yep, just copy the Obama strategy. Good politics.
Just caught up with the last few threads - good to see Pat Hall featured. He was until recently PPC for the glamorous Caroline Flint. Pat favours a referendum on the Lisbon treaty and it’s unusual for someone to become a PPC when they have a declared anti-government position. But if Caroline knew, I’m not sure she was bothered about it.
The BBC headline is a major turning point IMO, as previously it’s generally been about Labour attacking the Conservatives.
If you cast your minds back to the 2005 GE, almost every policy announcement made by the Conservatives was presented by the media (within minutes in some cases) as ‘Labour attack Conservatives spending plans’ etc…etc…
It was a masterful and totally frustrating period of spin controlled by the Dark Lord himself. However, it could only work if the media chose to report it that way.
Does this show that Labour are about to get the same treatment?
Off topic, because I know there are several on here who are interested, I saw Depeche Mode in concert in Budapest last night. They put on a spectacular show, but sod’s law applied - in an open air stadium with almost nowhere to hide, as soon as the band came on stage, the first drops of rain came. The heavens truly opened after an hour, at which point the higher power and I retreated to the bar, where we had an adequate view. The crowd were enthusiastic, and stayed to the rain-sodden end, but surprisingly declined almost every opportunity to sing. The band did particularly good versions of Precious, Master & Servant and Walking in my Shoes. Dave Gahan was in fine voice and showed no sign of the health problems that he’s gone through. I’m looking forward to seeing them again in December, in rather drier conditions.
133. “131 Name a specific painful cut.”
Paper. They *wreck*.
135 “[Labour have] invested too much political capital in an unrealistic economic policy.”
Yup. Gordon Brown is now caught in one of those carniverous plant-traps much loved by science fiction writers, where the more you fight the tendrils, the more that condemns you to your doom.
Gordon had a chance to extract himself today. Would have been embarrassing and he would have taken a big political hit, but he may have escaped. But after his bravura performance of blind stubbornness at PMQ’s today - ably supported by his nodding dogs beside him - he is condemned to be slowly digested, trapped in the weird belly of a sci-fi plant.
As soon as the Iraq inquiry is finished, I hope Cameron sets up another inquiry to look at exactly how Labour have managed to turn an unprecedented decade of rapid growth into the largest debt in this nations history. We need to know where all the money has gone and why? We need to know why, when all this money was being poared in serviced, the services themselves were not reformed to make them more able to withstand periods where funding is cut. If, despite all the pledges to save health from being cut, we finish up having to make health service cuts, I’m not sure the NHS will be able to withstand it. After such an extended period of funding thats a appalling state of affairs.
Gordon Brown must be held to account for destroying our country.
More bad news on the economy FROM OECD and BOE …. Also BBC news 24 reporting !!
OH DEAR MR BROWN ARE YOU STILL DISAGREEING WITH MORE EXPERTS - THE HOLE GETS DEEPER AND DEEPER !!!
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-business/article-23711592-details/Bank+of+England+warning+as+the+deficit+crisis+deepens/article.do
122. Brown’s situation may become worse later in the year as it becomes clearer that the last Public Borrowing forecast from Darling was understated. This is probable given yesterday’s OECD increased UK negative growth projection this year and a flat forecast situation next year. Then there will be more pressure on Darling from the markets to demonstate that he can get the public finances under control. Thanks to Cameron’s recent attacks any new figures will be heavily scrutined and Brown may have to admit that even Labour will have to make large cuts.
139 - Since his post is time-stamped at 1.38pm on the same day as your post, it seems more to be synchronicity.
Not sure if I approve of the action but it is funny that these 2 Labour troughers may get burned by their own Govt’s laws.
” Council warns MP couple over home. Married Labour MPs Ann and Alan Keen have been given a month to stop their local council repossessing their home 10 miles from the House of Commons. A source at the council - which is run by the Conservatives - told the BBC that the Brentford property had remained empty for seven months. If the council doesn’t get a satisfactory response from the Keens, it then has the power to issue an Emergency Dwelling Management Order which would allow the council to take possession of the property and bring it back into use.”
152 - But you forgot the Gordo motto,
“I AM RIGHT, YOU ARE ALL WRONG (UNLESS YOU AGREE WITH ME)”
and the advanced version
“I AM RIGHT, YOU ARE ALL WRONG (EVEN IF YOU AGREE WITH ME IF YOU ARE A TORY TOFF)”
“Am I right in thinking that liberals in the US are less likely to turn on liberals, whereas conservatives will kick the hell out of each other? ”
You never glanced through Daily Kos I guess.
133 Jonathan:
http://www.conservatives.com/News/Articles/2009/03/David_Cameron_Control_spending_-_and_it_wont_be_pain-free.aspx
148. Awesome, *AWESOME* band antifrank. I’m jealous!
135.
“Brown accepting that Osborne and Cameron are right.”
He does already, this hoo hah at PMQs is ritual empty disagreeing about pebbles.
All Chamereon is doing is trying to get Gordo to admit that his current plans involve real cutbacks in service budgets (as they do) and all Gordo is trying to do is to get Chamereon to admit that the official Tories wants to cut more than Labour do - probably not that much actually - but, since Chamereon’s pretending, Bliar-style, (other than in private in the circles of the very rich) otherwise, Gordo feels free to exaggerate as much as he likes.
I’m sure these silly games by both of them go right over the public’s heads.
The good news for Gordon Brown is that he doesn’t win today’s prize for the person giving the least plausible account of his own position:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8117171.stm
153. Indeed. All bets are off as what will have to be cut. The situatuon will probably end up being much, much worse than the already dire situation we’re in. Like I say, most people haven’t even begun to grasp the seriousness of the crisis we’re in. Even, I suspect the Conservative Party themselves. I’m no expert, but I reakon things will be infinately worse for Cameron in 2010 than it was for Thatcher in 79.
148. Antifrank that’s cool! I’ll be at the O2 in December, seeing them there? You know in the film “101″ there’s a shower when they sing the lines “And came the rain and once again/A tear fell from her mother’s eye”!
What do you make of the UK chart positions? #2 for the album, but #24 and #57(!!) for the singles!
Mind boggling statistics from article on 24dash.com
The projected number of households in England will rise by four million by 2021, figures showed today.
The report by the Office for National Statistics projected a total of 25.44 million households in 2021, compared with 21.52 million in 2006 - the equivalent of one new household every two minutes.
By 2031, the projections showed there will be 27.82 million households in England - a further increase of nearly 2.5 million.
According to Government forecasts, 70% of the population increase up to 2031 will be due to immigration, which will also account for almost 40% of all new household formation in England.
Frank Field and Nicholas Soames, co-chairmen of the cross party group on balanced migration, said: “As we face severe cuts in public spending, it is the politics of madness to continue with immigration policies that will mean us having to provide thousands of new homes for newcomers - not to mention the necessary roads, schools and hospitals - on this unprecedented scale, when our own citizens, both black and white, cannot get homes.”
Sir Andrew Green, chairman of campaign group migrationwatch, added: “The Government are still in complete denial about the huge impact of immigration on housing.
“We will have to provide a home for new immigrants every five minutes for at least the next 15 years.
“Given the financial crisis we now face, this is absolutely crazy.”
155 - I noticed that Mrs Keen was doing Q & A at Health Questions yesterday. Nice to see the troughers getting rewarded, wonder when we get an similar appearance from Malik (or is he too busy playing with his massage chair, while watching that massive goggle box he bought with tax payers money, in that house that his mate must have have half the rent paid in cash for religious reasons)?
AND ANOTHER KING ATTACK ON BROWNS BORROWING - GORDON IS RIGHT THOUGH, EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG, EVEN THE WORLD ISN’T ROUND ACCORDING TO MR “TIMEWARP GORDON” !!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8117388.stm
162. Can Gordon postpone the GE until after next years budget ?
159 - My other half is the big fan, but they put on a fantastic concert, as always. The one sour note was seeing members of the Magyar Guard outside the stadium. Britain is not the only country that has to contend with a rise in support of the far right.
161- Who the hell buys drugs off a stranger in a supermarket?!!! The back of an alley somewhere surely is a better place.
162. The big danger will be a revival of Lib Dem support as the more hand wringing section of the middle classes take fright at the inevitable consequences of a major fiscal adjustment.
That is of course why the Tories need to make sure as many Lib Dem MPs bite the dust as possible at the next GE.
167
Havent you got that the wrong way round?
167. No, but he can have the election before the budget. Or he could just have a fantasy budget.
163 - They have gone beyond needing to worry about chart positions.
My favourite Depeche Mode-related concert was the Dave Gahan solo project Paper Monsters, for which he put on concerts at smaller venues, including Shepherd’s Bush. One of the best concerts I’ve ever seen.
119.
” the Tories have already said that, in some areas, the cuts will be painful.”
….without saying what any of them will be. Cake and eat it land with ded faux courage. Talking ‘bravely’ about facing pain together when in fact no a single Tory trougher will feel any pain at all when they finally do work out what cuts they will impose upon the hoi polloi.
133
Johnathen
Any fool can see the NHS budget is going to be cut.
It is already happening now. It is hurting..
http://www.healthcarerepublic.com//news/index.cfm?fuseaction=HCR.News.GP.LatestNews.Article&nNewsID=914294&sHashCode=#AddComment
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2009/06/whos_planning_w.html
166 - Wayne.
It was after a similar IMF report that Osborne went into amrmagideon mode and made a fool of himself in January.
Don’t do the same.
Alistair gets it right, listen to him.
This is an absolutely fantastic political advert by the ANC (except for Zuma’s ugly mug at the end).
The sort of hope-filled ad to which every incumbent party should aspire; the sort of ad which makes politics seem worth it. Of course, reality may be different…
http://politicaladvertising.co.uk/2009/03/02/anc-political-advert/
171. Ahem yes - most likely is a fantasy budget with no tax rises or cuts just before the GE - and bluster/lie through the analysis that shows it to be more lies.
158 Meaningless beyond the fact he reserves the right to make painful cuts wherever he sees fit beyond the election. Do you really want to give him such carte blanche? I guess you trust him.
138 Well that’s my point, Cameron may cut things you don’t like. But you can’t be sure can you? He is keeping his options open to do what he likes.
Meanwhile Cameron by raising “pain” only as an abstract concept, knows that human nature will kick in and people will assume it’s pain for someone else. So he is more likely to get away with it, whilst claiming after the election “I did tell you” when the complaints come in.
So IMO he is being disingenuous and is exploiting human nature. If he knows what he wants to cut he should say it. Lying by omission is lying.
158, so Johnathon, have you accepted that your original assertion is incorrect? Or will you follow even closer in the Dear Leaders footsteps and just state that you are right and everyone else is wrong?
“New U-turn on Iraq War inquiry as Miliband says it WILL be able to blame key players”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1195253/Brown-hints-hell-evidence-public-Iraq-War-inquiry-MPs-told-blame.html
Very disappointed in people commenting on Bercow today and it shows that the real problem remains hidden underneath the tory/labour spat
It doesn’t matter if he’s ‘good’ or if he’s ‘fair’. This was never about either of those things, they were always just a distraction to the reality.
This came about because of an expenses scandal. Parliament decided to swap a major trougher for a major trougher. They also did so in a partisan manner.
Has the expenses scandal stopped? No.
Has the manner of his election changed? No.
The situation is as dire as it was; despite the sleight of hand to try and make us think things are different. They are not, and the electorate look as though they don’t believe it either.
AntiFrank - brilliant fairy-tale story - can you still buy those sort of razor blades?!
When I was 15, I had a silver one as a necklace charm *embarrassing*
Things must be bad ifMr King feels that he has to state “Bank chief wants to cut borrowing”.
At the next PMQs Cameron can just say that he agrees with the Bank of England, but does Gordon?
174 - how can they possibly say where they will be when Gordon Brown won’t actually give them the true figures? They can guess, and can ring-fence certain areas as priorities, but it’s quite hard to see what you’ll need to cut if someone is hiding the numbers from you.
“Mark Thompson, the BBC director general, has accused ITV, Channel 4 and Ofcom of trying to undermine the Corporation”
Arhhhhhh
Labour should have pumped the lions share of the tax dividend from Oil and Financial Services boom years into transport and energy infrastructure. Not Health and Social Security.
NHS and benefit increases have been a spectactular waste of funds for precious little return.
I don’t want to add Education to that list - as I’d rank it as a priority for funds way above the NHS and Social Security - but Labour focused on low priorities to start with (smaller class sizes in primary schools) and neglected secondary schools and universities. Their “academies” programme was too late and too small to make a difference and, of course, ministers have been more than complicit in grade inflation.
Public Sector Investment Priorities: Labour get them WRONG.
Tim’s ideas are not too bad
Increase CGT - agreed and would also increase House stamp duty and taxation of second homes and rental property. Would reduce employers NI on small businesses.
Raise retirement age etc - agreed.
Public sector pay freeze - agreed but would go further by reducing pay of those earning over £50K by 10% and those earning over £100K by 25%.
Legalise illegal immigrants - disagree as though it might work initially it would lead to much more immigration as people would assume that the leagalisation would reoccur.
Legalise drugs - agreed.
Would also have immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan, no more public money for London Olympics (or for China, India etc) and introduce workfare for long term unemployed.
Build council houses but scatter them about - no more big sink estates. Invest in energy security quickly.
“Now that they had captured (on film!!) every single station within the M25, as well as the five London Underground stations lying outside the motorway, Lord Sunil’s forces now controlled a vast photographic empire stretching from Amersham in the west to Dartford in the east, and from Radlett in the north to Woldingham in the south. He had now truly taken his troops “to the ends of the earth”, as they saw it. But in the euphoria of their victory, one question now nagged Sunil: What now? Where should they go next, if at all?
“Sunil’s generals were split on the issue. The “party-hungry” faction wanted to see more action, pointing out that the army was “on a roll”, eager for more victories, and since it was mid-summer, it would be the best time of year to capture all remaining 112 stations within a 25 mile radius of London (they pointed out that Amersham and Chesham on the London Underground were that distance away). They also pointed out that at a capture rate of 10 stations a day, about two working weeks were all that was required.
“The more cautious generals suggested that a prolonged campaign outside the M25 would be prohibitively expensive, given the current economic climate. They also pointed out to Sunil that he had only ordered them into Amersham and Chesham because they were “officially” regarded as part of the London Travelcard area, albeit in ancillary “Zone 9″. Therefore an all-within-the-M25 main line stations plus all-London Underground stations combination was a perfectly suitable goal, and now it had been attained. Why bother capturing so many stations that couldn’t be geographically or administratively regarded as being in (or associated with) London?
“Reports suggest that Sunil is yet to make his mind up…”
ukpaul June 24th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
We have Bercow because that is whom most of the Labour and LD MPs wanted…
179, oh dear, Johnathan, our posts crossed and your answer makes it painfully clear that you are indeed a devotee of the Dear Leaders vision and perception of the truth.
O/T
If the Keen MP ‘main home’ council house in Feltham has truly been empty for 7 months, shouldn’t they be prosecuted for ‘obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception’ by calling this their ‘main home’ in anyone’s language?
167. Probably in principle but the warnings from the Governor of the BoE suggest the markets will want to see a meaningful UK debt reduction programme long before next Spring. If not we probably face big problems funding the UK government borrowing requirement linked to much weaker Sterling.
162
GIN
I agree.
The Budget deficit is likely this year to be £200Billion. Or roughly 30% of expenditure.
The two biggest spenders are Health and Welfare- about 1/3 rd of ALL spending.
To suggest cuts can be made in other services and not them is STUPID and artithmetically absurd..
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/budget_ukgs.php
Tim’s idea of a Public Sector wage freeze… is only a start.
I expect all - and I mean ALL spending to be cut by 20%…overall.
(Goodbye all PC officers, Rquality commissions, NGOs etc )
BBC report on the Keens
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8117341.stm
188.
Plus
1) reduce future liabilities by solving public sector pension issue. Could then draw down/amortise some future savings to soften the blows
2) Time limited benefits.
179. Jonathon, he’s said he doesn’t want to cut health and the aid budget. Every thing else will be cut. Its that simple. Theres no great Conservative conspiracy here.
190 - Then again, if it was Young, he is also tainted by the scandal. There was hardly a clean candidate there so the deckchairs have been rearranged while they are congratulating themselves on how it makes them much safer.
197. Frankly the aid budget should be the first one on the block.
192 - Yes they should.
And Nadines “main home” in Narnia falls into the same category.
179 Jonathan, you are being ridiculous! Cameron says, in absolutely unambiguous terms, “There will be tough decisions to make, and there will be people to disappoint - I would never claim that controlling public spending can be a pain-free process.” How much clearer can he be?
Sure he’s keeping options open as to exact details. Quite right too - we don’t know exactly what state the economy will be in, we don’t know how many savings can be obtained by rigorous efficiency improvements, and we don’t know how accurate the Treasury forecasts (for tax receipts especially) will be. Nor do we know how exchange rates and commodity prices will move over the next year. So detailed plans will have to wait, but the general direction is as clear as crystal.
That’s not ‘lying by omission’ by any stretch of the imagination.
179. Cameron will cut many things we don’t like.
I’m not looking forward to his (inevitable) Defence and Transport cuts.. but they’re coming.
I wish we could also start to wind down Afghanistan too - where so many brave young soldiers are dying pointlessly - but I can’t see any exit strategy at the moment.
173. Yes there are some good songs on Paper Monsters, probably better than the follow-up Hourglass but the latter’s still a nice album. The only live pop music event I’ve been to thus far was the Wireless O2 festival in London almost exactly three years ago - Depeche Mode headlined the day I went and I bought a live “souvenir” CD recording too! Oh and a T-shirt!
Could the Keens lose their main home?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8117341.stm
199
It will be ..
Cos even Osborne can add up…
84. Well we’ve now reached a situation where, perversely, it may in fact be stimulatory for the economy to tighten fiscal policy because it will bring down long-term interest rates.
The last time we were here was 1981, when the famous 365 economists got it wrong.
Otherwise this unusual situation is only normally found in tinpot developing countries with laughable government debt markets.
by wage slave June 24th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
You are right that the Keens should be referred to the rozzers and have their collars felt…
By going public with this “proof” the police/CPS may find it difficult to ignore…
199
Aid budget….
I quite agree.
Union Modernisation fund first, communication allowance second
194. But the thing is health, despite all that money health spends and has spent, it barely functions. If it was cut it could quite easily completely fall apart. Thats why Cameron doesn’t want to cut it. Like I say, we need an inquiry to find out what Labout has spent and why it hasn’t reformed things like the NHS to make them more able to withstand the lean times. What Brown has done to this country is a scandal. And now Labour supporters have the cheek to attack the Tories for not having all the answers after what Labours done to us.
179 Jonathan. Cameron does not need to spell out proposed cuts in detail until Brown does/ possibly just before a GE and even then it would be politically stupid for him to pre-empt a full Expenditure Review he would have immediately after asssuming power
200.
Narnia!!
I always love the tales of the lyin witch who lives in a wardobe.
198. No scandal with Young. He’s been publishing his expenses online for years.
Make no mistake: if the HoC had been voting solely on who’d be the best man for the job (rather than “Eton” or “let’s f**k the Tories”) Young would have won by a landslide.
It just shows what a sad little world Westminster can be.
192 Yes they should.
201 Are you seriously saying Cameron has no idea what he will cut? You are blind. Of course he can be a hell of a lot clearer.
Would you be happy if he halved the defence budget after the election and said I told you there would be painful cuts?
No
He is lying by omission. If there is to be pain, it reasonable to ask who will suffer it before an election.
He IS lying by omission. You just trust he will cut the things you don’t like. You are being ridiculous.
There would be something highly amusing about the Keen troughers losing their house using one of Labour’s own vindicative policies against them!
Enjoyed PMQs today.
Brown annoys me so much I am going to manufacture a punch bag and have his face put on it! Maybe I will then go on Dragons Den and get some investors to back me in wholesale production of “Punch Gordon” bags!
Maybe giving Gordon a good f1sting each evening will make me feel better?
Surprised Brown did not make more of the speaker in his usual cack-handed way.
I thought Cleggs questioning very interestingly until he started trying to blame the Tories! Clegg seemed to be following Camerons leadership in the hope some of Camerons lustre will cleave onto Clegg. Clegg never learns does he!
“He is lying by omission.” - Hmm, interesting concept, he is lying because he isn’t saying.
I don’t remember Obama getting struck down, when he refused to give exact details of which areas of the budget would undergo cuts! In fact, his approach was applauded by many.
214 - “He is lying by omission. If there is to be pain, it reasonable to ask who will suffer it before an election.”
And before an election he will no doubt do that. A year before an election, and he’s just falling into your silly little trap.
O/T
If you beleive the tweets then Iran is getting uglier
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/livetweeting-the-revolution-day-10.html
211 - Nadine has already told us she rarely visits her “main home”.
Perhaps because it is made of sweets and she only travels there when she has gone up the hills to Bedfordshire.
209
GIN
One of the reasons it barely functions is that there is zero accountability at senior levels for disasters: See Staffordshire. where the people overseeing a orgy of patient deaths were promoted.
For many patients, being treated at home or at a doctor would be safer…less chance of MRSA etc…
I suspect, we will get those kind of decisions forced upon us by economic neccessity.. and if we do, then Tim’s sneering at my economic forecasts may change.
216..
Maybe giving Gordon a good f1sting each evening will make me feel better?
Maybe why Mandy is always smiling ?
208. But the “meat” is in the NHS and Social Security benefits.
We need to start time-limiting some benefits and re-qualify what is free on the NHS.
I’d start with cosmetic and IVF treatment for the NHS.
I’d start with Working Tax Credit and Child Benefit for SS.
216. Maybe giving Gordon a good f1sting each evening will make me feel better?
220. Tim, retreating to your comfort zone again. We’re all having a really good discussion about public services and what will need to be cut and your posting rubbish about Nadine again.
223. Leave the EU and abolish overseas aid first.
220
any you rarely make a comment without smearing.
218 Well call me cynical in nature. Cameron is politician. He is deliberately trying to create as much wriggle room for himself after the election. It is the purpose of the democratic process to tie him down and get him to say what he would do and to thus limit his power.
Cameron must know already what his priorities would be. If they’re so great he should not be afraid to share them.
Even Tories here should be getting him to commit to something. If you don’t it may bite you in the bum.
226. Sympathy on the EU point but that would take too long and still isn’t the meat.
Also, bear in mind overseas aid is still a useful “weapon” of foreign policy; although its taboo to say it.
229. We sent aid to India last year as they sent a rocket into space.
An impressive argument here from the Fink -
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article6564980.ece
214. desperate stuff Jonathan. the lying stuff is really over the top especially on the day when GB had to correct himself over what he said last week.
214 Jonathan - The defence budget no doubt will have to be cut, although nowadays it is a relatively small chunk of public expenditure.
Of course Cameron and Osborne will have very good ideas of where they think, on the basis of current limited information, that savings can be made. In fact, if they are doing their job properly, they’ve got a range of plans, based on different scenarios. But they can’t commit until nearer the time, and it would be naive in the extreme to think that it is practical politics to speculate in public about possible plans, which may turn out to be either too draconian or not draconian enough.
Anyway - what are Labour going to cut in 2010-2011, since you think it is so important to lay out detailed plans now?
re 220 Which “hills in Bedfordshire”? I live here and it is relatively flat
229. That portion which constitutes bribes for contracts may be worth keeping but the rest should go. We can leave the EU in a matter of months, that takes no longer than piloting through extensive budget cuts in a major department.
How about a windfall tax on recent immigrants as well - perhaps £1000 per head each?
228. Jonathon, EVEERYTHING will be cut except health and over sea’s aid. If health and over sea’s aid do end up being cut (I suspect they will) then you’ll have cause to complain, but otherwise exceot for those two, everything else will be cut. I don’t know how much clearer I can be.
234 - The wooden hills to Bedfordshire
228. “If you don’t it may bite you in the bum.”
Ooooooohh.. Stop it! You’ll get Martin Day all excited
232 Desperate. No. Just think politicians should be challenged. Cameron has no claims to any holier than thou status.
234 Mike S. Ampthill ??
210- The Tories shouldn’t allow themselves to be suckered into this debate over what they will cut. But Labour should definitely try to sucker them, as there is all to gain and nothing to lose from their perspective.
It may be politically beneficial, either now or later, for the Tories to annouce cuts to some white elephant expenditures loved only by certain diehard Labourite special interests, but even that runs the risk of firing up the Labour base. Even this sort of cut should therefore only be announced after careful political calculations have been made.
241- The same things come up all the time.
Tattoo removal and IVF are the standby tokens when it comes to the health service.
228. Can’t stand it anymore. Jonathan. You are saying that without being able to look at the books, not having the Civil Service to support him and trying to forecast what the economy/tax recipets will be in 12 months time, Cameron should publish a comprehensive spending review? When the government which has all the data won’t.
You could say that since the budget forecasts cuts but Labour won’t say where they are Darling is lying by omission. It cuts both ways.
At least Cameron admits there will be cuts. Half the truth is better than none from Labour.
239. I agree no one should be holier than thou (which is exactly what Brown is trying to be to Cameron if you listen to his answers) but I think that you saying he is “lying by omission” is pathetic and a bit sad.
176. “Alistair gets it right”: possibly tim best ever comment. According to the Chancellor’s own 2009 budget figures he is planning to borrow £269bn over the next five years than he was in November 2008. Quite some correction!
239, you’re right. I wish Cameron would stop banging on about his father and his moral compass.
230. Yeah mate, but I don’t buy this “no aid” business.
India is still a desperately poor country and a key member of the Commonwealth. There’s politics behind it.
Never underestimate the impact value of a road with “funded by the British government” on it. I’m quite proud we still do good in the world though for different reasons to socialist redistributor Nick Palmer.
Health and Welfare are the biggest issues. Why ignore them?
234 Dunstable Downs are, er, not quite flat….
I see that David Davis has morphed into Bobby Robson.
WTF is going on.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1195188/HARRY-PHIBBS-Daviss-divisive-grammar-schools-revival.html
Abolish SATS! Bring back the 11 Plus!
Howayy the Lads
The real David Davis
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40955000/jpg/_40955532_haynes.jpg
249.
238.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zpMKqKFHmEg/SW1VDf68KpI/AAAAAAAAAEc/JNB_LXgWYU8/s1600-h/cable+%26+witless.jpg
251 Martin D. Lovely image !!
One other example of a politician foolishly delving into details on cuts/taxes before an election was Jean-Louis Borloo, of Sarkozy’s UMP Party. Between the two rounds of France’s last parliamentary elections, he stated on a TV program that the government might increase the VAT. Result: the UMP had an unexpectedly bad final round of the election and some surmise that Borloo’s comment cost the party about 50 seats.
Don’t be suckered, Tories.
247. India can solve its own problems, and our aid does precisely nothing in that area. As for the politics of it - who cares?
Of course all sectors need to be looked at, but I’m sure the vast majority of voters would agree that it makes sense to end wasteful spending abroad first rather than cut vital social services.
252 “Yer gonna need a bigger Bot….”
For those interested in why the OECD remains gloomy while the NIESR called the bottom in March (for now at least), it’s necessary to understand quite how awful March was. The first quarter was very bad and the expectation is that the ONS GDP figure will be revised downwards.
The NIESR forecast Q1 GDP at 108.6 (2003 = 100) in April, down 1.5%, quarter-on-quarter. Most people expected things to be bad, but not quite this bad - they then got worse. In May, NIESR forecast Q1 GDP at 108.1 down 1.9%, quarter-on-quarter (this chimes with the actual preliminary ONS GDP figure). In June NIESR forecast Q1 GDP at 107.6, down 2.2% quarter-on-quarter. On this basis, they forecast that on a monthly basis GDP bottomed at 107.4 in March, rebounding to 107.6 in April and 107.7 in May. The index was 108.1 in January. Most people (including me) thought that the downturn would be slower and more prolonged - instead we got a fast downturn and a small bump off the bottom caused by inventory adjustment.
Globally things were really pants in Q1 thanks to the huge inventory adjustment - which hit the UK, but which was worse for others such as Japan and Germany - for those with larger manufacturing sectors, the rebound will be more pronounced (just as the downturn was more severe).
The million dollar question (or in these days should one say the trillion dollar question) is where final demand comes from. We now have loads of businesses operating at 15% below capacity - rising unemployment & crappy pay deals. Average earnings fell in March if one includes bonuses and are beginning to reflect the dodgy position of business. Where will we see people rushing to buy cars and other “stuff” given this is the pattern everywhere?
So, where were we wrong? Well, manufacturing turned out to be a really rubbish business to be in. Finance has been (relatively) resilient (so far) and the surviving banks are making out like bandits - The Guardian had a story about bumper profits at Goldman Sachs in the first half on Sunday. But, salaries including bonuses are going to be weak in finance and business services for the rest of the year thanks to the way that bonuses are included in the calculations and the lousy revenues of 2008.
For the OECD to be right (-4.3% this year) will require at least one more baddish quarter (down 1% and a bit, quarter-on-quarter) and two flattish quarters. Since another down leg seems unlikely in manufacturing, this depends on what happens in services - where the consensus is for a continuing decline. The NIESR also forecast UK growth would be down by 4.3% this year in their report from May. In order for us to hit Darling’s forecast this year, we need to remain flat for the next two quarters and then hit 1.3% quarter on quarter growth in Q4.
As of now not much has changed since February/March in expectations - although the shape of the downturn has been affected by the steepness of the fall in Q1. We might get a technical end to the recession in Q2 thanks to the sharp fall in Q1, but consensus is that growth isnt returning - so no V shaped recovery.
As a matter of interest this is roughly how things work out in April/May in growth terms:
Public services +
Construction -
Agriculture +
Industry is bouncing, but may still be negative quarter-on-quarter.
Services is bouncing, but will probably still be negative quarter-on-quarter.
http://www.niesr.ac.uk/press/gdp0609.pdf
Someone called Hattie Garlick over at Comment Central has an intriguing proposition - Could Angelina Jolie be America’s first female President?
Down boys.
255. I kept look for a clip where you could her the chomp chomp of Jaws when he eats Quint on the internet because it is funny! But the only clips i have found have music that overplay the chomping noise! Shame Gordon Broan is not Quint! I put Clegg on the Orca and Jaws spat him out! I was surprised as i thought Clegg would go down well given he has no backbone!
257. Pamela Anderson would be a Better President and we have seen loads of big Tits in the ‘POTUS Office’ at various times!
257. I don’t find her particularly attractive.
257 If she really wants to do goodly international works, couldn’t she just become, like, head of the UN or something instead? She could maybe change her name to fit in - become Boutros Boutros Jolie?
254 - “it makes sense to end WASTEFUL spending abroad first rather than cut VITAL social services.”
Erm, yes. It is always sensible to cut wasteful spending before vital spending. But equally, it makes sense to cut wasteful spending at home before cutting vital aid projects which (at their best) save a lot of lives.
Beyond the rather silly phrasing of your point, there is a wider philosophical disagreement. It strikes me you feel any use of British taxpayer money that doesn’t help people in Britain is wasteful by definition. In asserting that, you don’t speak for this particular taxpayer and I suspect I am not alone.
Suggestions of ‘massacre’ from tweets in Baharestan, Tehran.
An Iranian can have his question answered by the US president but what chance of it being answered from his own ‘ruler’ unless with a baton or a gun? It would be a real twist of the knife if Obama was to expand yesterday’s beginning and field questions from a number of Iranians. This is about them, after all, and if their own leaders are not listening…
259. Alas, Ms Anderson is not a natural US citizen iirc.
249. Labour’s opening up another front on the grammar schools issue and I think this one will run. Some of the commentariat and Tory politicians want them, most parents don’t. The leadership still don’t get it. Although I disagree with his point of view the Mail columnist puts the politics of it well:
“These days Europe causes less division in Tory ranks largely because the Eurosceptic case is accepted by virtually everybody except Ken Clarke.
But grammar schools proved more combustible.”
Another nail in Gordon Brown’s coffin.
“we came into this crisis with fiscal policy on a path that wasn’t sustainable and a correction was needed,” Mervyn King today.
So that ends the claim that we were best placed to ride out this recession.
230. Do you object to money from the EU going to deprived areas of the UK when we can “afford” Trident?
264.Corporeal, I think you are correct, isn’t she originally from Canada?
“They have also apparently taken pictures in the demonstrations, matched them with the national ID card database and are now rounding people up in the dead of night.”
Any government that has that sort of apparatus will be able to use it against the people. Now would be a good time to drop it and explain why.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/darkness-visible.html
267.yes
268.Boys, just imagine it, Jolie vs Palin. That would certainly get the debate going.
269, that’s missing the real issue. Cameron was rude about the Nazis. I think he should resign.
To be serious, that’s absolutely chilling.
271. after the election they could kiss and make up though..
excuse me for a few minutes…
264 - How dare you suggest Ms Anderson is anything less than 100% natural? An appalling slur and just the kind of spin this site could do without.
272 - err, you lost me there. What’s the connection?
271 - Jolie could adopt Palins Grandchildren
Is today the end of the 59th relaunch of Brown?
A great debate on Iraq in H/C. I can confidently assert that the most rabid member of the Tory herd on this site doesn’t hate Brown and Blair as much as Andrew Mackinley does.
275, not heard about a few insane lefties crying about Cameron saying “Vere are your papers?” during a Cameron Direct?
235. Only citizens should be entitled to the tax free allowance.
Brown is living in the past.
Following the Fink’s column in the Times (see OGH above). “Gordon Brown’s political mindset is stuck firmly in the early nineties, in the view of sixty three per cent of those on the left in the PoliticsHome Phi100 panel.”
http://page.politicshome.com/uk/gordon_brown_stuck_in_the_early_nineties.html
‘’The central ideas that make up Gordon Brown’s policy, political strategy and day-to-day tactics were all developed between 1992 and 1994. He hasn’t had an important idea since. Nor has he discarded an important idea since then, remaining doggedly faithful to every last one.’
From that BBC link re the Keens comes this snippet:
Ann Keen, a junior health minister, is also facing claims for private medical treatment. In 2005 the former nurse claimed for two medical bills, amounting to £232 for treatment at the Blackheath Hospital. At the time was a Parliamentary aide to Gordon Brown.
Most of the detail relating to these bills has been blacked out in the allowances published by Parliament last week, although the first bill for £150 is entitled ‘new consultation’ in the published documents.
It is not clear whether Ms Keen or a member of her staff was the subject of the consultation, though the rules on Incidental Expenses, which are meant to cover the cost of running an office, make it clear that they are not there for personal costs.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8117341.stm
Wait, there is more on the Mrs Keen,
Ann Keen in fresh trouble - exes claims for private hospital
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/06/ann-keen-in-fresh-trouble-exes-claims-for-private-hospital.html
Them socialists and their privates hospitals (BTW, did we ever find out if Gordo went private for his teeth?) and private schools for their kids!
283 (cont) Now remember Mrs Keen isn’t just some backbencher, she has a job for the government in the health department, I think that is something to do with you know that NHS thingy!
“First Europeans were cannibals with taste for children”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/5624301/First-Europeans-were-cannibals-with-taste-for-children.html
What a wonderful speech by Richard Shepherd. No other words needed.
234 Mike is it
“William Hill” ?
re 234 well the highest point in Bedfordshire is 243m which is reasonably hilly.
I have never watched a bull fight but I understand that before the death of the bull there are numerous wounds inflicted on the animal over a period of time before the final thrust is delivered.
This spectre of watching the decline of Gordon Brown is one where numerous wounds are inflicted, each wound reducing his life force. Can he really survive another 11 months of this? He is being reduced to a person without honour. His reputation trashed, his weaknesses exposed to all and yet no one around him seems capable of giving him a merciful end or saving him further injury. Sarah Brown needs to step in to save her husband.
On the cuts debate, I work in the NI Civil Service, if it’s anything like the public sector in the rest of the UK then there will be a lot of admin and support staff, usually hired on short term contracts, who are just there to make up the little empires of middle managers. Most of their day is spent on Facebook or Bebo apart from occasional times when they have to chase up statistics for their overlord and usually end up just keeping the frontline staff back from doing their jobs. All these people could be sucked through a wormhole into a parallel universe and the performance of the agency wouldn’t suffer, if anything it would increase slightly as they would be off the backs of the frontline! If Cameron is serious about making cuts then these are the areas where he should be focusing. There was an article in The Times the other week about how the public sector back offices are using the frontline staff as human shields to protect their own jobs, how true! There are a lot of cuts which can be made easily and without impact on service delivery, staff like me would like to see that happen as it would mean that we could get on with our jobs!!
re 264 but neither is Obama! Speaking of which Rod C’s been conspicuously quiet these last few days.
Everyone knows that we are currently in cloud cuckoo land as regards the truly terrifying levels of borrowing, which simply can’t continue and that public expenditure will have to be cut - massively. To pretend otherwise is to treat voters as fools.
Cameron should have the courage to say so. For Brown to claim today at PMQs that such expenditure was set to increase still further under Labour was just plain daft and every Labour MP bar one knows this is so.
Brown could easily lose the vote tonight.
288 - He appears to have a similar intellect and temper to that of a bull! Maybe one in a china shop with Tory Toffs acting as a red rag, as he seems to cause chaos and destruction on a fairly regular regular basis while making a fool of himself desperately trying to spear the Tories (BTW, bull in a china shop is a myth as is all the stuff about red rags!).
293 - If only Gordon were just a myth.
287.”re 234 well the highest point in Bedfordshire is 243m which is reasonably hilly.”
ChrisA, sorry, but that is just the equivalent of a road bump to me.
Had a lovely drive a couple of nights ago. Went exploring some hidden wee rural farming valleys in Deeside, Fitaloon reckoned that the farmy bits were like Yorkshire, only with real hills.
Glorious evening, going to spend it walking that area tonight with the dog.
294 - I reckon a large proportion of the Labour party think the same!
292 - It appears to me to be a well judged motion. Very hard to disagree with, Lib Dems and others on board with the Tories and makes it tricky for Labour MPs too.
292 fr
Some of these speeches are amazing. But no-one will even report them.
I do think newspapers should bring back dedicated Parliamentary pages. Even Today in Parliament is far too abridged.
290- You mean Barry Soetoro?
S&S : “”Reporters typically don’t coordinate their questions for the president before press conferences, so it seemed odd that Obama might have an idea what the question would be.”
No: according to Sullivan, Obama did not know what Nico’s question will be — he knew only, apparently, that it would be from an Iranian.
BTW, this HuffPo guy is doing a a fantastic job, establishing and maintaning contact with various Iranians.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/13/iran-demonstrations-viole_n_215189.html
298 - Jeremy Corbyn putting Diane Abbott to sleep.
Off Topic, but as one who’s had a pop at tim in the past, I think it’s only fair to comment that (in my opinion, at least), he’s been far better today. Yes, he’s had a pop at Cameron and co and even interwoven some digs at some of his usual targets - but there hasn’t been the relentless repetition and/or digs at other posters (or if there have been, I’ve missed them).
As (nearly) everyone has a pop at the opposing lot once in a while, some frequently (from both sides) and as his posts have also seen a deal of policy-based stuff and decent interaction, I’ve got to credit him. I think it’s really the relentless frequent repetition of the attacks that has caused the criticism (coupled with the fact that a few of them have been really quite nasty - but against that is that there’s been nasty stuff from the other sides in the past; the repetition draws attention to the nastier stuff)
Sorry if this comes over as totally up myself or condescending - I just thought that having had a go, I should note the opposite. Fair’s fair.
High quality debate in Parliament, I speak as a supporter of the Iraq War. Government lost the debate, could it possibly lose the vote on a tory motion…surely not.
300- There’s no way for Sullivan to know that. On the other hand, it’s clear that the Huffington Post and the Obama administration were coordinating efforts regarding questions to be asked of the president.
302- I don’t see what’s so awful about tim either, really, except that he relentlessly supports the “wrong” party. I think those two factors are what elicits the overwhelming majority of the criticism he receives, which naturally turns nasty on occasion as tempers start to rise. And, by all accounts, he is perhaps the most politically astute twelve-year-old farmer in the land.
Why is it that the Iraq War leads to excellent speeches from all sides of the House of Commons?
06
Even those scoundrels feel the weight of sending people to their deaths.
Why isn’t Bob Ainsworth replying to Liam Fox?
Don’t know if someone posted
“EXCLUSIVE: Downing Street head of news Tom Hoskin set to join Tesco”
(…)The supermarket giant has signed up Tom Hoskin, currently deputy to Number 10 communications director Mike Ellam”
http://www.prweek.com/uk/news/915640/EXCLUSIVE-Top-Downing-Street-press-officer-Tom-Hoskin-set-join-Tesco/
Warren Buffett slams any talk of green shoots:
“In a live interview on CNBC today, Warren Buffett said there has been little progress over the past few months in the “economic war” being fought by the country. “We haven’t got the economy moving yet.”
While the economy is a “shambles” and likely to stay that way for some time, he remains optimistic there will eventually be a recovery over a period of years.”
http://www.cnbc.com/id/31526130
306. Because War is one of the few areas of responsibility that is still solely under the control of the elected Government and Parliament (and rightfully so). There are no quangos, no EU, no devolution to dilute the accountability. It sits with Westminster end off story…..
Rammell unravelling: being barracked by own side.
Mackinlay blowing a gasket v. Rammell.
This government’s mantra is “Someone else will consider it and get back to us.”
What a front bench: Bob Aintworthit, Tory Turncoat, Milliband, underpants man.
312/313 Not surprising, an insult to the MoD and Armed Forces putting Rammell in a SoS.
On Inquiry, amusing to look at Guardian Politics Page.
Main Story:
Iraq Inquiry Will Attribute Blame Says Miliband
Below it
Michael White: inquiry is not there to apportion blame
What the hell is the government’s problem? I can understand (maybe) why they don’t want politicians on the panel, though the argument is lousy and purely partisan.
But why so stubborn on having no military representative? It just seems stupid to me.
316 Perhaps Miliband means ‘attribute blame’ in the sense of this war, which was started in America, wasn’t our fault…
House voting.
I can’t see the government defeating the motion or winning their own amendment (was it actually formally moved?)
317 - I agree, its just pissing people off for no benefit to anyone whatsoever.
320 Millsy
I can, unfortunately.
Most Labour MPs have no honour. This is the most immoral government we have known for decades.
310. S & S -
I think that these guys tend to have the best grip on how the economy really is functioning. The states has similar problems to the UK but I believe the UK has significantly weaker prospects for growth due to the Financial Sector being such a part of recent growth coupled with housing! We have also had Gordon Brown to screw up public finances, regulation and public policy positions. Brown is a model of how to do everything wrong, take the incorrect decisions and adopt the wrong policies.
Describing Brown as having the Reverse middus touch would be being genrous!
I am glad i have always been against Gordon because how could i sleep at night without a skin full! The neighbours would be complaining about creeking doors and strange green ghostly appeararations!
322, which post-war government was worse?
Hmmm… the new European Conservatives and Reformists group looks decidedly unstable… the single MEP from Finland has re-defected back to the liberal group
http://newsroom.finland.fi/stt/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=22191&group=Politics
Although there has been a new defection from Lithuania too.
This sort of thing was always a danger though. The group is going to have to give disproportionate influence away to the single members in order to keep them on side. The Conservatives need to work hard to broaden their coalition.
323- Well, at least Buffett is a credible source not only because he seems to know something about economics and making money but also because he is one of the few voices in this matter who isn’t a politician or a tool of politicians. I myself have little background in the field, so it is always interesting to me when a figure such as Buffett speaks up.
As for Brown, sometimes I do feel sorry for him. But then I see another incident where it appears that the only pleasure he has in life is to “get” the Tories, and my empathy evaporates.
Interesting article by Steve Richards in the Indepenant about why the Tories were so upset that Bercow won. It reminded me why I am so instinctively against the Tory Party and why their ‘changes’ are a figment of the imagination. Why would anyone in favour of change vote for a party who call themselves ‘conservative’?
Motion lost
260 - 299
260-299 Gov win
Not been paying full attention but have the Commons just voted against the inquiry being public wherever possible?
Useless Labour lobby fodder
Scumbags.
327 - I don’t know why anyone in favour of change vote for a party who call themselves Conservative Roger. Perhaps you should ask the 40% of the population why they vote Conservative?
A better question is why do 20% of the population still think Brown is the best of 60 million people to lead our country.
The Government may have won the vote - but they lost what little moral authority they had left
The case for a proper open examination of the war with witnesses under oath is overwhelming
As is the need for wider participation on the committee
The power of the whips and the payroll vote needs to be curtailed
Perhaps it is time for secret votes for all parliamentary business….
I’m confused, the amendment seems identical to the motion itself….
326. I know what you mean about occasionally feeling sorry for him but then as you say he carries on in the same way! Or worse! I have never liked Brown but he seems to just lift the bar each time he does something wrong or insensitive the more desperate he gets!
For instance we have had Brown:
Election 2007
Inheritance Tax (Shooting the Tory Fox as they called it).
10p
VAT reduction because Ken Clarke advocated it.
Spending money the UK does not have
Baby P
Smeargate
The Speaker election
I could go on and am sure i have missed out.
Brown is amazing in that he does not govern to put forward his own agenda but to cause the Tories the most problems in which he usually miscalculates!
What a complete fool!
330 yes, Labour like a locking door on their sh!thouse
I watched the debate for a long time and didn’t see one labour MP speak in favour of government.
327 - should have read 328 first. My statement would have read “why do 15% of the population still think Brown is the best of 60 million people to lead our country”.
I think Brown is on a mission to see how low he can get Labour in the opinion polls. Or perhaps he is thinking if he is the only Labour MP left as teh next GE, he can stay on and lead the party.
PS. I heard Blair on radio yesterday doing a PMQ’s. It is easy to forget how good he was. The inability of Brown to realize he wasn’t nearly up to Blair’s standard is quite a worrying sign of his judgement
327
That’s because you and Richards, steeped in your lefty university education, have no idea what the difference is between Conservative and conservative.
May I suggest you start with Friedrich Hayek’s excellent essay: ‘Why I am not a conservative’ (1960).
http://www.fahayek.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46
Since when have 40% of the “population” voted Conservative?
That must be getting on for 20 million.
Last election 40% of the elctorate not the population did not even vote.
You are being affected by “ave it”
After some angry waffling at yesterday’s press conference, Obama is today reconsidering whether now is the right time to be extending invitations to Iranian diplomats to attend Fourth of July celebrations at U.S. embassies:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/24/officials-president-obama-reconsidering-july-4-invitations-to-iran/
Obama should have been able to figure this one out by now, but I guess he hasn’t.
327. Roger
Are you Labour or LD at the moment?
You seem to have flipped more times recently than Alistair Darling or Geoff Baboon of late! How did Hoon (Baboon) get an arse like that did he slip on a Broom handle getting out of the bath?
I don’t think they voted against public versus private.
I think they voted against the ‘extra’ stuff in the Conservative motion.
Things like having military/political people on the panel, having the terms of reference ratified by the House of Commons, hearing evidence under oath, etc.
It’s amazing. Other than the few frontbenchers who have to defend Brown’s position not hardly any of those 299 spoke in the debate, as far as I can tell. They vote blindly, but don’t have the guts to explain make their case to the House.
341
Here’s a quote from that essay for those who can’t be bothered reading it (most of you no doubt).
”But, though the position I have tried to define is also often described as “conservative,” it is very different from that to which this name has been traditionally attached. There is danger in the confused condition which brings the defenders of liberty and the true conservatives together in common opposition to developments which threaten their ideals equally. It is therefore important to distinguish clearly the position taken here from that which has long been known - perhaps more appropriately - as conservatism.”
342 OK 40% voting population who vote. Who cares about the others political views if they don’t vote it doesn’t matter.
327 - Richards hits the nail on the head.
Anyone watching the anger on the faces of Tory MPs when the result was announced might assume that Bercow was a raving leftie. In fact he has made a stand on a number of limited issues including his support for gay adoption and for the abolition of the anti-gay Section 28. He lost his job on the front bench under Michael Howard partly for arguing that the budget for international development should be maintained rather than cut. Bercow’s reward for being genuinely progressive on a limited number of issues was the loathing disdain of virtually the entire parliamentary Conservative party……..
For Labour the most expedient outcome would have been the election of Sir George Young. With Boris Johnson wielding power in London and Cameron seeking a move to No 10, voters might have asked whether there is a limit to the number of old Etonians they wish to rule over them.
348
What does ‘progressive’ mean?
345. The Tories had a solid motion and Labour failed to pick it up! It has now floated away and Labour are unlikely to get a better chance to heal the countries pain on this issue!
We will know be subjected to Clegg or even worse Skeleton saying “IRAQ” in that unique way for a whole news cycle!
336. Martin
could go on and am sure i have missed out.
42 Days
ID Cards
The Gurkhas
BJ4BW + ‘Britishness’
Greengate
Scamalot and the Youtube dance
Lisbon and the referendum that never was
And thats just off the top of my head……..
348 he hits your nail on the head tim, he completely misses the nail on my hen house.
…meanwhile back on planet pbc, Tim witters on about a little read article about an unimportant vote on speaker whilst his party votes to cover up on war criminals.
Gosh!
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/06/boris-4698-taxi-bills-including-a-whopping-237-for-one-bill-alone.html
And guess what? its all Ken’s fault.
“What does ‘progressive’ mean?”
Doing things he agrees with. See also “Right wing, or things he disagrees with.”
349 - In the case of Bercow above it means adopting positions that Cameron would adopt later.
351.
Yes, Brown is Tool!
I sometimes wonder if Brown was to fall under a Bus how big the queue to push him would be! Maybe that is why Brown is thinking of Going to Havard - A) Because he is unemployable in this country (
Just like me so it would seem!) B) Because everybody hates him and no doubt unfairly his Children and wife get abuse either now or in the future! I truely dispise Brown but his Kids should not be made to suffer because of Brown. It is rather like the Hitler family in the United States having a pact not no have Children because of Adolf. I think the likelyhood of their offspring being in a position anywhere to rival Hitler would be tiny Billion to one!
The Keens on Channel 4 look to be in deep shit! Main house to be reposed and looks like nobody ever goes there!
356
So ‘progressive’ means different things, depending on the person the term is applied to? Not a very useful term then and yet Richards’ article is based on its meaning.
So on this basis his article must be crap.
357. Martin.
If you charged a fiver for lottery tickets to decide who the lucky winner would be you could probably go a long way to resolving the debt crisis!
How is this defeat of the vote to have the Iraq inquiry heard in public “whenever possible” going to make Mr Redactor and his crusade for transparency and openness?
355. Saying something is progressive is merely a flapping of the lips that the left append to anything they favour. It means nothing.
358 - Maybe they took property investment tips from Baroness Uddin!
354 - From Boris’ Taxi Bills
In one example, he travelled from his former home in Furlong Road, N7, to Foxglove Close, N9, and it cost an eye-popping £237.50.
I guess it depends on the route taken.
Nevertheless, he soon recovered and enjoyed a passionate affair with Petronella Wyatt in the back of taxicabs. They’d circle St John’s Wood and ask the driver to insert a tape of Petronella singing Puccini – “unwise, as Boris doesn’t tip much”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/3655801/The-only-dumb-blond-in-Westminster-village.html
361 Oracle
It will still be largely in public; Labour conceded that with their own amendment which they won.
See my post at 345.
Instead of crisis what crisis, maybe Gordo will be remembered for,
Cuts, what cuts?
Teaching shortage warning amid university funding squeeze
Schools could be left with serious teaching shortages because of sharp cuts to university education departments, according to teachers’ leaders.
The comments come amid mounting concerns over proposed £400m cuts in university funding for September.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/5626357/Teaching-shortage-warning-amid-university-funding-squeeze.html
357 Brown will go to Cape Cod if he loses the election. he loves it there and has had several holidays in the environs I believe….
Martin etc that main house of the Keens is on C4 news boarded up and overgrown…
Will the CPS just jump to the prosecution stage and leap over any need for an investigation? We could then get these two scroungers in jail for Xmas!
I can but wish.
PS will it take Brown 1 day, 1 week or a month to fire Mrs Keen from Govt? Maybe he will not believe it with his own eye?
367 where he can fade into obscurity, an embarassing footnote in the UK’s long and proud history.
Forever remembered as ‘the weird funny looking bloke that really blew it for a couple of years’
‘Oh yeah….. him, he was a real tw@t’
367 - Will he take his wife? He used to go alone did he not? Maybe in the current climate of cutbacks, Brighton would be more likely. Oh no wait, he is a millionaire off the back of the taxpayer, silly me, Cape Cod it will be then.
Benedict Brogan says that the Great Purge has begun in the Conservative Party and up to half of the current MPs will not stand at the next election. The could be fewer MPs now in Parliament left than ministerial/payroll posts to be filled.
Dangerous I would have thought for Cameron, half the parliamentary party with nothing to lose in approach to an election.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/benedict-brogan/5627033/The-Great-Purge-has-started-in-the-Conservative-Party.html
Maggie Thatcher Fan June 24th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
Cape Cod is just outside the Bermuda triangle so maybe Brown will get his moral compass back?
370 but he will have to fund his own kitchen improvements, window cleaning, gardening, ironing and ’solar panels’
360. jsfl.
I really do hate Brown!
Wednesday is the highlight of the week when i see him at PMQs thoroughly out of his depth and shafted at the despatch box!
I dont normally hate people but Brown = B@st@rd! If Labour actually had the bottle to stab him in the back, there would be so many knives they could pay the national date off with with the proceeds of selling the metal!
367 - Visiting Cap Cod.
Is that like a big phone bill “visiting the troops”?
373. Dyed in some wool somewhere
Not to mention the cost of getting a choked toilet unblocked!
368. TC -
Indeed Brown should fire this Keen Woman! They should also have by-elections in the seats occupied by Chayto, Morley etc. Ian Gibson set a prescedent! Surprised the locals in the relevant seats have not been campaigning for the tainted ones to be forced to go!
Does anyone know where to find out which Labour MPs decided they have a conscience? Parliament’s website is useless, it’s impossible to find the votes.
371. Ted.
I wouldn’t take the word of the Witchfinder General after all he probably got the tip from his usual sources in the pubs in Westminster (ergo likely fabricated).
Basically, the Telegraph is a soiled source IMO.
376 and of course the misfortune to need pest control in all his properties.
477.Wibbler - Will it be posted yet? I’d have thought it would take a couple of days to get the info up?
378 Brother Brogan wishes it to be known that your heresy makes the Baby Barclay cry.
257. ChristinaD. Angelina for President?
http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=go_type&category=SPECIALS&disp_cat_id=&ev_class_id=33&ev_type_id=11691&ev_oc_grp_ids=111097&bir_index=
381. Well I’m sure Brother Brogan will use whatever appendage he has available to calm the wee chappie.
306 Malcolm
Because its the first time the have been allowed to do anything serous that they might be able to do something about for weeks.
This is how it is supposed to be. It almost never is.
Sky - 12-15 Labour rebels……
380 jsfl
Yes, probably. I don’t know why though.
Other Parliaments manage to publish their votes instantly.
If one of the Speakers had talked about prepublishing all legislation in an XML friendly format on Parliament’s website I would have jumped for joy.
Personally I don’t see why every member of Parliament doesn’t have a personal Aye/No device instead of having to walk through lobbies.
They waste about twenty minutes every time they need to vote.
Married MPs Alan and Ann Keen face losing their constituency home because it has been left empty for seven months.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Alan-And-Ann-Keen-MPs-Could-Lose-Their-Main-Home-After-Leaving-It-Unoccupied-For-Seven-Months/Article/200906415317631?lpos=Politics_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15317631_Alan_And_Ann_Keen_MPs_Could_Lose_Their_Main_Home_After_Leaving_It_Unoccupied_For_Seven_Months
327. Because the Conservatives in government have been right on pretty much the majority of important issues in the last forty years.
South Carolina Gov. Mark Sanford, once touted as a possible 2012 presidential candidate, can be safely crossed off the list. He has suddenly reappeared after having cut himself off from all contact with his wife and staff since last Thursday. Where was he? Not on the Appalachain Trail, as his staff claimed. Instead, he was with his girlfriend in Argentina. It’s always nice when the political field vets itself.
Re my post at 386
I meant Speakership candidates, of course.
383 he will use such appendages as have not already disappeared up his own backside
378 Up to a point BB might be wrong -but there are only 193 MPs today. We already know that a number are going, can easily see that being 50 or so, or a quarter of the current party, and as result with say 200 new MPs (if Conservatives get 360 or so seats) it will be a very different parliamentary party. A number of the new MPs would get payroll posts. Cameron will be in the rare position if that happened of having over half (55% plus) of his MPs being new.
386. Probably because in the UK we are at the forfront of technology by getting folk to walk though the Lobbey as you say! The lack of electronic voting means that it has to be put on the website by hand IIRC the tellers just write names of MPs passing through.
Not been funny but that is an utter waste of time and i agree a simple device that only worked within the confines of parliament with AYe/ Nay /Abstain should be implemented! Might get more MPs in the commons for the debate if they are not walking through the lobbies!
Maybe they keep the Lobbies to give MPs excercise?
392 - 33 packets of Daves Mates should give protection to 99.
386. It sounds a good idea but given the cost of such systems surely it’s no more than a ‘nice to have’ given the current debt crisis?
391. LOL! I didn’t realise he was a contortionist as well!
;o)
387. Marvellous - and this from the party that claims there is a housing shortage and proposes to build millions of cardboard box homes on greenfield land.
389. Do we know it was with a girlfriend?
395 jsfl
Such devices would cost no more than £20 per MP. After all, you can definitely get cheap mobile phones (which are far too complicated) for less than this.
It would pay for itself in a matter of months.
As for publishing legislation in a tech-friendly way, the costs have been estimated to be £1000 by mySociety
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/freeourbills/
It’s largely a one-time cost and the extra scrutiny of thousands of geeks being able to pore over legislation will probably save money quite quickly.
389 Stars and Stripes
Especially for you - how stupid does Erick Erickson of Redstate look today?
http://www.redstate.com/erick/2009/06/23/the-lessons-of-mark-sanfords-hike/
I quite like the Aye/No lobby system, but I’m a bit of traditionalist.
401, me too. Bring back the wig!
202. An awesome Afghanistan exit strategy would be to put the squaddies on a plane and bring them home. They’re getting their ar$es handed to them anyway so it’s beyond me what the point of having them there is.
401 David
I’m a traditionalist when it comes to silly inconsequential things like wearing funny clothes, calling each other by the names of constituencies, and the like.
But I would prefer they used time for debating rather than voting.
392. Ted. I agree that your projections are plausible but 50 is half of what Brother Brogan is talking about.
Brother Brogan is spinning it to blow his own trumpet (more contortionism - see@396) and cause mischief in the Conservative Party.
50 might be twice as many as might have been expected but that is a long way from the sort of scenario Brother Brogan is talking about and some such as Widecombe and Howard had already indicated they were standing down.
404 I too am a traditionalist re votes being done by walking through division lobbies,having to name constituencies-at the end of the day,does the 10-15 minutes of a ‘division’ warrant uprooting a quaint British tradition?
398- I have read that Sanford himself confirmed it in a press conference.
398- Oh, are you getting at that it might have been a boyfriend?!?!
408. No! I have read that in the press conference he confirmed where he was, but mention of a woman being with him are just rumours at this point.
402. Indeed I too want to see the traditions of the Mother of all Parliaments. The progressive approach (like Bercow’s robes) seems to want to turn it into a glorified school assembly (circa 1970). Apt perhaps in light of the expenses debacle but hardly in tune with the importance of Westminster.
400- Yes indeed. It’s always a dangerous business to rush to someone’s defense when it looks very strange and fishy, and the circumstances are still murky. Everybody gets burned sooner or later, but I made no effort to defend him given the bizarre nature of the situation.
398. Just checked now - you are right. That’s him done for 2012 then.
410. On the basis of Westminster’s recent practical, rather than theoretical importance, I wonder if Bercow shouldn’t be wearing a donkey jacket or prison clothes.
409- “S.C. Gov. Mark Sanford admitted today that his secret trip to Argentina over the Father’s Day weekend was to visit a woman he has been having an affair with for the past year.”
http://www.thestate.com/sanford/story/839231.html
Re 403. so it’s beyond me
Hmmmm most things are…….
no doubt lots of you have mentioned it up thread but good to hear Merv the Swerve tear shreds off Alistair Darlings economic predictions and go further by stating the Government’s policies even before the recession were nonsense and were bound to lead to an unmanageable debt. Guess Cammo will be giving him a Knighthood/Peerage in 2011.
PS. Put your money on Haley Barbour - looks like he’s taking over Sanford’s role as head of the Republican governors association.
408. Erm…. not something to readily admit but I’ve met him and he doesn’t behave like he’s batting for the other side
also hearing Jon Craig on SKY News claim that it was Mandy who insisted the Iraq enquiry be in private to protect Saint Anthony of the Immaculate Lie. According to Jon Craig tomorrow’s Spectator magazine makes the claim and states Mandy insisted on it at a time when Gord was in trouble and needed his help! ouch.
I assume our own NPMP voted with the herd to prevent the Iraq Enquiry from being held in public. No doubt if he did Nick will tell us it was in the interests of democracy. If Nick dared to rebel for the second or third time in his parliamentary career then well done him.
410. Given the transfers of sovereignty and devolution I would have thought that the only importance Parliament has is theoretical.
That said perhaps Bercow can be persuaded to change his name to Norman Stanley Fletcher…….
420 Nothing wrong with dear old Fletch (RIP)
(I’m a HUGE ‘Porridge’ fan BTW)
I’m just differentiating myself since post 406 (?) from t’other Patrick by restoring my full label,after my PC chucked a wobbler the other day!
399. Wibbler. Are you an IT salesman by any chance? I’ve heard that “it only costs” so many times in my 20 plus years in IT and it is always bollocks……
I accept the devices cost next to nothing but then there are the maintenance contracts, the ongoing software licence fees, the server infrastructure costs at the centre of it, the wireless/ network costs, the integration costs (you can guarantee it will intefere with something else), the security costs, the disaster recovery arrangements, the ongoing upgrade costs, the ongoing support costs, the ongoing admin costs, the ongoing replacement cost for the ones that are lost, nicked and dropped down the loo.
It is never mainly a one-off cost…….
OT
sorry if repost re hospital story.
Just when I thought NuLab could not disgust me any more I read the Keen empty council house story.
Ann Keen in fresh trouble - exes claims for private hospital
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/06/ann-keen-in-fresh-trouble-exes-claims-for-private-hospital.html
421.Ronnie Barker was one of the greats of TV comedy!
3299. Re 422. Oh and I forgot the ten management consultants per user you need to manage any public secotr technology project in this country…..
New thread: “Could Bercow be a future PM?”
422 jsfl
No, I’m not…
I accept your criticisms. However, you should note that mySociety have brought in many ‘open government’ projects in the past, on time and with small budgets:
* TheyWorkForYou
* No. 10 Petitions
* WriteToThem
* WhatDoTheyKnow
* PledgeBank
* Travel Time Maps
* FixMyStreet
* HearFromYourMP
* GroupsNearYou
I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to cost estimation given their sterling work so far.
How about these numbers about Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnsons’ inept leadership in London:
“A fundamental issue affecting virtually every project [of the London Development Agency] investigated was the failure to retain adequate project records, both in terms of hard copy documents and electronic filing,” an audit report by DLA Piper says.
And the monitoring of financial projects is also drawn into question in the report.
“On many of the projects investigated, the quality of the financial due diligence undertaken on grant recipients was poor prior to the award of funding, and non-existent during project delivery,” the report says.
Good old Tory boys and their no nonsense approach.
jsfl: wibbler is right when it comes to mysociety. They’ve put their money where their mouth is and actually delivered services on a shoe-string budget. Unlike many government departments…