Why do part-time MPs get full-time pay?
June 27th, 2009
Why do they have seventeen weeks annual holiday?
Somewhat to my surprise I find myself in total agreement with today’s blog entry by former Tory minister, John Redwood.
In it he sets out just how little time MPs actually have to spend at Westminster because of the elongated holidays and the truncated working week.
He writes: “My main job is to hold the government to account. It is to cross examine them over their policies, to request they put things right that government has got wrong, to seek improvements to public services, to expose waste and maladministration, to criticise, amend and improve their laws, to approve or vote against their budgets..I am not allowed to hold the government to account in Parliament on Saturday or Sunday, as we do not meet, or on Fridays when only meet to consider private members business. Parliament is closed completely for 17 weeks of the year. In July we will be told we have to stay away until the second week of October!
That means, in total, we can only do our prime jobs for 140 days of the year. It is a part time Parliament…”
Of course unlike countries which have proper legislatures the commons itself is almost a farce. It’s barely more than an assembly ground for an electoral college that hands all power to the prime minister. The role of MPs is just to do what the whips tell them. If they fall out of line then the whips will see that their roles becomes even more limited and their chance of preferment is blocked.
The government completely controls parliamentary business and, as we saw in May, the confidence motion on the then speaker could not get aired without the agreement of ministers.
Of course there is so-called case week constituents but so much of that should not be handled by MPs at all but by councillors. All they do in the majority of instances is just pass it on to the local authority.
Given the new purge on MPs having second jobs you wonder what they are going to do with their time.
Surely this has got to change.
Mike Smithson
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first
Completely agree. We need more parliament time, which would give more time for private member’s bills, which would mean more independence for MPs.
And we need less politicians in both the Commons and the reformed Lords. This would give each one more of a media presence to take the agenda away from the executive.
I’m confused. Nick Palmer keeps telling us what an enormous workload MPs have, and how poorly paid they are.
Yet these same MPs seem able to write cheques for thousands of pounds at the drop of a hat, to repay expenses. And now we are told they have three to four times more annual leave than ordinary folks.
It’s all very puzzling, isn’t it?
Personally I’m in favour of MPs taking as they like. The less time Parliament is sitting, tthe less legislation they can pass.
The purge on MP’s having second jobs is just a tool for Labour to bash the Tories with. I hope it backfires spectacularly.
Personally, I think MP’s should have experience of outside work and at the risk of being ageist I think maybe there should be a lower age limit of say mid-thirties before someone can enter parliament. ‘Whip fodder’ doesn’t do us any good at all.
I also agree we need less legislation but more thoroughly scrutinised, far too much of it suffers from mission creep as a direct result of the current situation.
Shouldn’t MPs be working for their constituents at all other times? Those that aren’t should be brought to account I would have thought.
Personally I think being an mp must be knackering.
Even so 17 seems a tad generaous
355 prev post
1.You are comparing the Nazi threat to the..Taliban….I think we need a debate in this country if we are to spend decades there, it doesn’t have public backing.
2.Constant criticism? I stated a fact only 1 country has ever used atom bomb in anger. As for Anti-American, if you look back at previous posts you will find I was a great supporter of the war in Iraq. One of my political heroes is Ronald Reagan - he helped win the cold war without firing a shot.
3.Special Relationship - here have your gift back! He could have avoided controversy by asking permission to loan it to a great US museum/Presidential Library, doesn’t take too much imagination.
4.He has also referred to special partnership with Japan, Israel and Mexico to name but 3.
5.That’s an opinion! If the current leadership is the best chance Afghanistan has, maybe it wouldn’t be so bad to let the taliban back in, and let the Afghans see them for what they are.
6.Strange how you support an invasion of a country where there are no vital British interests, when there is no exit strategy, and which has already cost Billions of Pounds and dozens of lives. Just what would constitute success? converting every taliban supporter into a believer in secularism?
The question is not “Why do part-time MPs get full-time pay?”; the question is “Why do MPs not do a full-time job?”. It is within the power of MPs to rebel sufficiently so that the timetable is altered so that they can scrutinise legislation more in committees, and keep the government to account.
3. The workload which most MPs have is their own self-made jobs of being constituency social-workers, ombudsmen, and conduits for the malcontented grumblings of the terminally bewildered, rather than sitting on committees checking clause 43(2) of the Treacle Pudding (Consolidation) Bill.
re 5 How do they work for their constituents? They are not glorified social workers or councillors - they should be legislators. But thanks to the powers of the whips offices they simply don’t have that role.
9 - The people who vote for them would imagine otherwise, as far as most are concerned an MP is there to represent them.
Maybe the job description needs updating, cutting out the ‘must con as much out of the taxpayer as seems plausible’ bits.
I used my mp (before he was famous - one D Cameron) to help with an immigration case
The service by his office was excellent throughout. But it was not DC doing it, but one of his sidekicks. This is right and proper, as harrying a slow Home Office requires different skills to vetting legislation. You won’t often get them in one person, and frankly an efficient junior can do the grunt work and just quote the mp’s name.
So you do need an mp who is a good manager of a team to fulfill the various roles but much of the social work should be done by the team. If this means more office expenditure then fine - as long as the mp is freed up
Once again I pop outside for ten mins and there’s a new thread!
I want to see MPs in the Chamber or at least in the HoC 4 days a week. Perhaps like school registers these can be published online as they clock in.
I don’t want yet another local councillor / social worker using up an MP’s time because they have bugger all else to do. I thought they were employed/voted for to make/amend laws FFS.
Is this ban on second jobs actually going to happen then? How are they intending to define a “second job”?
7.
1. No, I am simply stating how long foreign interventions usually take. There was no Nazi threat in post-war Japan and Germany, but there were other important strategic imperatives, as there are along the AfPak border.
2. I was not necessarily including you in the group, as I have not had enough discussion with you to understand your whole philosophy. But I was speaking in general terms to many that support that particular viewpoint.
3. It was a loan from the beginning which had come to an end. Gifts Obama has received from the UK since then have been graciously accepted.
4. Obviously the US is going to have similarly close ties with Japan and Israel, due to history. Nothing has changed there with Obama. Courting Mexico in the run-up to immigration reform and border security issues is also sensible policy. We can’t act like a jealous eight year old going “but I thought I was your bestest friend”. We have close links with the US, but we have to accept others will do too.
5. Yes, it’s my opinion based on the arguments and facts I have observed. Then we discuss each of our opinions’ merits and weaknesses - its how debate works.
6. Keeping nuclear warheads out of the hands of crazies and preventing terrorist networks gaining tractions are in Britain’s interests, as they are in the interests of all civilised nations. Success would constitute continued disruption of the Taliban until we Pakistan’s democracy settles down to a more stable format.
Maybe Alan Milburn is quiting to do the second jobs full time? Could be the reason patricia Hewitt is leaving as well!
Shame Several Jobs Barry Sheerman is not saying cherio before we the voters say cherio to him!
Whilst I have been conned into the MPS work 80 hours a Week line, if you think about it when parliament is sitting they dont start early in the morning and its just for a few days a week. I suppose travelling between the seat and London is classified as work as well by MPs along with eating and drinking subsidised food!
I do not call going to a piss up at the local Labour or Tory club work either! Indeed the hardest job of all must be trying to keep a straigt face when going on the TV and saying they work hard! It seems to me being an MP is an extreamley cushy number! I am sceptical about all this ‘Social work stuff’ as well that some claim to do.
I think we all agree that the 17 week summer recess is way too long and Redwood makes some solidly good points. However he is based in Wokingham, and clearly is able to spend every evening at home in his constituency meeting his constituents, whereas MP’s from elsewhere only have that opportunity when Parliament isn’t sitting - something he seems to overlook.
MP’s already become alarmingly detached from the outside world even when spending only 140 days in the Palace.
Surely a big part of an MP’s job is meeting and talking to the people he represents. In fact I’d say this should be the substantial minority part of the job; canvassing, public meetings or surgeries are essential in my view. If he or she doesn’t keep in touch they quite quickly lose touch with what their constituents expect and that is a formula for an unrepresentative political class.
It’s the longest serving, most remote and safe-seat MP’s on all sides who consistently turn out to be the gaffe prone, the inept and the worst informed; and it’s usueally the longest serving and the safest seated MP’s who canvass and campaign the least.
I’m also yet to hear a convincing argument for why being a Cabinet Minister isn’t a “second job” that impinges on the constituency work of an MP. And if it isn’t, then the case for a ban on second jobs goes out of the window.
Am I the only one that thinks Parliament sits far too much?
Never mind banning second jobs! That is for the local electorate to decide not Gordon Brown.
They should be banning the troughers who have ’stolen’ public money! It should be parliament looking at forcing by-elections in seats such as Chaytors, Morleys, the Keens, Devines and the like.
Simon
This shifty government needs to be watched ALL the time.
Haven’t watched or heard a news bulletin since that awful little American singer died. Is anything of interest happening outside of Los Angeles?
It’s very easy to complain that MPs don’t work hard enough but how many of us would fancy doing that job, even on such short hours?
Certainly not me.
Re: ‘ . . case week constituents’; I suggest ‘ . . case work for constituents’.
16. Bloody hell. I actually agree with (almost) all of what Marcus has to say on this! I must go & lie down…
15 - According to Sky News Alan Milburn has a grand total of 5 jobs on top of his position as an MP, and the speculation was that him stepping down as an MP was to do his 5 jobs full time.
This move by Brown to target the Conservatives has already started to back fire on him.
16. Although I agree broadly with Mike’s view, you raise some very good points. Political elites in other countries are much more remote than ours, and often this causes a lapse into ideology.
17. Also a good point
20. I’m sure “bad news” has been released.
Milburn - politicians who have fought their way through long opposition and into government tend not to have the appetite to start all over again in opposition. In his case he must think - “I’m not going back to 79-83 again?” Who can blame him?
26 - e.g,
Only 13 college building projects out of 144 in jeopardy after a funding fiasco can go ahead this year, the Learning and Skills Council (LSC) says.
An inquiry into the LSC’s college re-building programme in England found that major mistakes had been made.
The projects approved will now have to reduce their costs, the LSC said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8120809.stm
Stimulus? increase in spending on infrastructure, schools, hospitals? Hmm, doesn’t seem like it does it!
Parliament would be served well if the mumber of opposition days were increased
26 - Or,
Fewer young begin apprenticeships
There has been a drop in the number of young people starting apprenticeships in England, official figures show.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8119483.stm
21. King Peladon of Peladon
There is a slight difference between saying they do not work hard and when MPs say they work X amount of hours and being a bit cynical!
For instance when i used to commute to work and set off at 7AM or 7:30AM go to work on public transport do the work in the office, have lunch and then because i didnt fancy commuting on busy trains have a few pints before coming home, so quite ofter i would not get in until say 9PM.
Would that count as me doing 13 - 14 Hour days x 5 a week? MPs seem to add eating, pissing and shitting into their hours of work! Many of them do not have to communte on a daily basis but if they did that would be added on as well!
If you are a Low prifile MP i doubt it is that stressful either! Not like speaking to crazed loons in a call centre all day…….
27. John Wheatley
Milburn only entered the house in 1992, he the quit in 2001 as a Cabinet Minister?
I dont think he likes the front line stuff IMO.
28 That’s not bad news my local college was one down to be demolished and rebuilt and having started a course there and found it to be perfectly satisfactory I was most annoyed at the prospect of chucking away all that money on something that didn’t need to be done. If Oxford colleges can last centuries I fail to see why my local FE can’t manage 40.
Didn’t notice this one slip out either late on Friday afternoon,
The nationalised Northern Rock bank is to be split in two later this year.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8121517.stm
33 - Well it is for the government, as Eddie Balls, Sion Simon, and David Lammy at times have all gone on radio saying that estimates of only such a small number going ahead were rubbish, extra money, would get it back on track, etc, etc.
Also, the whole stimulus c##p, included committed to increase the pace of school and college rebuilding.
29. Opposition day debates are a waste of time. We should open out the parliamentary agenda to backbenchers and the public rather than the frontbenches of either govt or opposition
31. Martin Day
All I’m saying is that as dull and poorly paid as my own, 40 hours per week and £13,000 per year, job is - I’d not willingly swap places with an MP with any thoughts of getting an easier life for myself.
35 (cont) Also, be interested to know how many schools / colleges have demolished the old building already and now told they won’t get the money as promised this year for the new building. I know when this story broke, there were a number of problems like this, where colleges had paid out the money for work given the promise of the funding.
I have been splitting my time between Torbay and London since 2003 and it’s just about tolerable three or four days a week because:
1) I am self employed and can manage my own time
2) I earn substantially more than an MP’s salary
3) I can and do take regular periods when I don’t go to London and work from home, especially when business is quiet.
If the House of Commons changed to either working more days each week or more weeks of the year the ONLY basis on which I would carry on would be if I could move the family back to London and swap back to the old idea of making ‘occasional’ visits to the constituency.
I think most other MP’s and PPC’s with families and further away constituencies would be forced to do the same.
This would be a seriously retrograde step. London and the Home Counties are not representative of the whole UK and living there and working in Westminster and only occasionally visiting the people who you represent would be a disaster for representative democracy.
On a whole range of issues the people of Torbay are in a different universe than the general population in London and their views need to be represented in London, not the other way round.
Rather than pay MP’s more and insist they work longer, I’d argue we’d do better cutting their pay and encouraging them to do other things as well.
If I have understood correctly, the present Government has long preferred to curtail scrutiny of new legislation by using the guillotine much more frequently. So that must reduce the MPs’ workload?
Yes it’s a good post by John Redwood - the Vulcan has come back to earth for a bit. The idea of MPs’ work being full-time is bogus; many MPs are indeed busy the whole time but it’s doing party political stuff, which the taxpayer should not be responsible for. Secretaries or other assistants do 90% of the local “casework” and the MP never sees it.
And I agree (17.) that if it were truly a full-time job then it would be impossible for MPs to take up ministerial posts. Some government members like Jack Straw pride themselves on keeping in really close touch with their constituencies and they would deny that their constituents miss out in any way because of their responsibilities.
On another point, Caroline Flint has a somewhat cheeky article in “Progress” today (unfortunately only the hard copy version) criticising Labour’s European election campaign and saying how we should all make the case for Europe better. Um, why did you make it so obvious you thought the Europe job was a demotion, Caroline? If Europe’s so important then why did you resign?
37. Depends whether you enjoyed it or not!
I must say i am surprised the TORIES HAVE NOT LEPT ON THE GOVERNMENT ABANDONING THE PUBLIC SERVICE TARGETS! If there was ever a signal that spending cuts are probably being unleashed now this side of an election the abandonment of these PS Targets is an admission of such! Just because the C of E outlines budgets of X per year does not actually mean they are realistic or kept too. I should imagine that Hospitals and other services would see dramatic changes and failure to meet the targets in the current environment!
What’s this ‘Armed Forces Day’ claptrap Brown and the BBC is bloody whoring?!
43. New Gimmick!
You have to laugh at Brown - his proposals are that lame and transparent in there attempts to gain political capital that is laughable!
Gordon Brown = Shit!
43 - One of Gordo “big” ideas in the run up to becoming PM, stated as a Veteran’s Day, now changed to include all the services present and past. Opportunity for armed services to do some positive PR and public to engage with them.
43
Technically it is an ‘initiative’. Colloqually it is a ‘gimmick’. Nevertheless, if it means an extra bank holiday, say in the autumn and gives another reason to pay due respects to the armed forces, I would happy with it.
I like the sound of Armed Forces Day, being a bank holiday on the nearest monday to 11 Nov.
45 - did he get booed this time ?
Just been flicking through the last thread and Wage Slave’s comment 147 is one of the best I’ve read on PB.com.
45 (cont) I notice Gordo had his PA, I mean wife, with him today. Dragged her away from hobnobbing it with the likes of the “lovely” Naomi Campbell at Glastonbury.
Let me take a wild guess… Brown thought if he had an ‘Armed Forces Day’ it’d distract from his and Blair’s shoddy treatment of the army, and win a few votes off some old Tories?
‘Armed Forces Day’: Pathetic, desperate and unBritish.
From Guido…
Unconfirmed reports from local sources say police have been called to deal with squatters at Mr & Mrs Keen (on expenses) empty home. At least it is going to good use…
http://order-order.com/2009/06/27/police-called-to-keen-house-over-squatters/
http://order-order.com/2009/06/27/police-called-to-keen-house-over-squatters/
50 - Well….that could be one interpretation.
50 / 51 - Wonder if it is really squatters or those guys who put the sign up on Jacqui Spliffs bedsit, dug up Hunky Dunky’s garden and had a picnic in Anthony Steen’s garden playing silly buggers?
Guido seems to have had the tip-off on them on each of the previous occasions.
46 tory boy
I understand in parts of rural France people have a day’s holiday on the Saint’s day of their confirmation name. I don’t think it applies to protestants - something else for us to protest, I guess.
Damn, Ronan O’Gara.
We live at a time where the legislative power is virtually neutralised by the Executive.
28. This isn’t a cut, it is a mere minor financial reappraisal.
Frankly i’m not surprised many MPs have 2 or 3 extra jobs. What the hell are they supposed to do for the other 225 days of the year?
6
No body asks them to do it, they fight tooth and nail to get into parliament, it might be a good idea, once having got there, to make an appearance now and again.
There is no way, (after the expenses scandal etc) that the voters are going to accept second jobs. Second jobs that always involve, sitting in a boardroom and stuffing your guts: learning about, ‘real life’ of course.
46
Popped my contribution into the collection box of someone collecting for the RN Association today, wouldn’t have been there without, ‘Armed Forces Day’
Most MPs seem to busy themselves with local issues over which they have little control or influence - but they do it to impress voters - most of it is a waste of time - and absorbs a lot of resources - but it seems they have little to do at Westminster either
57. No question that the legislature is currently very much beholden to the executive.
However, this is not the first time this has been the case. Prior to the party system, we had in the 18th century a system where large numbers of MPs’ votes were basically bought, either explicitly for money or via the MPs being elected for pocket boroughs and thus at the beck and call of their patrons.
The modern party system is essentially another way of achieving the same end - having a steady and reliable body of votes in the HoC. I wonder if the ‘golden age’ of c1832-1914 that so many of us yearn for wasn’t just a happy interlude resulting from the collapse of one system and the slow evolution of another…
59. They could trial-run the Workfare arrangements …
60 I’ve no objection to MPs having second jobs, as being an MP isn’t a full time occupation.
Mike, mike, mike, that’s really not very convincing. Most MPs work 70 hour weeks, or at least that’s what they tell pollsters who ask them.
Firstly, there’s all the constituency work. Case work, yes, but also visiting all and sundry in the constituency.
Then there’s the media work. It’s hardly as if the best way to hold the government to account is to make a speech in the Commons. An interview with local or national media is much more effective.
And they have to do some policy development at some point too.
I agree that the Commons could be reorganised to be a better way for politicians to exercise their influence; but it’s hardly as if there isn’t plenty to do the rest of the time. Private members business time shouldn’t be cut down - it should be arranged so that it has a better chance of becoming law. Much of US law isn’t the president’s doing, it’s introduced by senators and congressmen.
I’ve no doubt there are plenty of MPs who aren’t seen nearly enough in their constituencies, who don’t do their casework, who rarely argue their party’s case even in the local media, who really do work part-time. There are quite a lot of MPs doing other jobs for quite a lot of the time. But that doesn’t mean that it isn’t a full-time job for people who do it properly.
64
If you accept that sean, then why bother with them at all.
Being an MP, should be a full time job, (many won’t like it, because they see themselves as members of a Patrician class) and they should have their noses to the grindstone 24/7.
If they want to be business people etc, then be business people etc., but not MP’s as well.
This Government has both reduced time for MPs at Westminster and at same time through timetable motions reduced the time spent actually discussing, amending, improving legislation. Every Speaker candidate, IIRC, wanted changes to timetabling and more committee time spent on bills. The unelected House of Lords is the Chamber that now fulfils both its role as a revising Chamber but also fills the gap in doing the job the Commons hasn’t done. How many Bills are passed to the Lords with less than half their clauses examined by HoC?
There should be less legislation as a start, properly examined by a HoC which sits for longer and far less use of timetable motions.
If Redwood is correct, why are so many Tory MPs rushing to give up their second jobs?
32 Martin Day. It pays not to be a smart alec. You said “Milburn only entered the house in 1992, he the quit in 2001 as a Cabinet Minister?
I dont think he likes the front line stuff IMO” but he had been v active on the left since 1979 was my point.
What cabinet minister in their right mind does not feel being in opposition quite futile in comparison
Actually its better if the old lags go - see Labour 1979 and Conservatives 1997. I suppose you could also say Liberals after 1918
66
I would consider not voting for someone who spent more time on their own interests* than being an MP. But it should be my choice. If people want to vote for someone who never votes in Parliament, never speaks in the house, rarely attends and insults them at every opportunity, that’s up to them isn’t it?
* This includes MPs who not only spend more time in business, but also those who spend more time working with and for charities; those who spend more time jetsetting around the world; those who spend more time writing pamphlets for thinktanks and universities and those who spend more time politicking than doing their job as an MP.
A great website for MPs
http://www.falseexpense.com/
Enjoy yer ‘Armed Forces Day’ coldstone ‘cos we won’t be getting compulsory ID cards anytime soon…
66. Yes but you haven’t really answered Alex’s point about why a Cabinet Minister’s post isn’t, effectively, a “second job” - being the Secretary of State for whatever is far more demanding than sitting in a boardroom for a few hours a month.
The anti-second job campaign is purely a political wheeze from our side to embarrass the Tories. And it seems to have worked - Cam is clamping down on people like Letwin, much to their private fury I guess. Poor old Marcus thinks that the policy is bollox, I am sure, but he has to keep his head down.
Much of the outside work done by MPs anyway isn’t for business, it’s for charities and NGOs, it’s often unpaid, and it would seem crazy to discourage this.
73 - The anti second job move began with Cameron when he tried to get his Shadow Cabinet to give up their second jobs but then bottled it.
I agree with you on the NGO and Charity stuff and surely no one is discouraged from doing this work by transparency.
Talking about 2nd jobs, do we know what is going to happen to all of SirAlun business interests, especially the very lucrative government contracts?
When I saw the headline about part-time MPs I thought that Mike was about to have a pop at Scottish MPs.
28 / 30 - plus on the Beeb news earlier a demo in Tower Hamlets because Government has cut adult education budget.
Strange type of investment I must say……..
75
Suralun isn’t a tory, so he can crack on coining it off the taxpayer.
Why is unpaid work okay, this has to be about all work or none? This is about time, and being available to parliament and constituents.
If you allow unpaid work then it makes the argument into one which says that MPs can spend a large amount of their time working unpaid and not caring about their job, whilst someone who works briefly for money will be disqualified from parliament.
Now *that* is a stupid argument - it would appear to have to be all or nothing to be credible.
Off centre summarises it fairly at 65. Of course you can get away with just delegating correspondence, never loking at issues, and not bothering to communicate. But if you do the job properly it’s a 70-hour/week job.
Mike’s overlooking two things when he swallows the ‘most is just referred to councils’ line. First, even if the enquiry is council-related, you can’t safely just refer it. The constituent has probably tried the council directly already: you need to talk to them, find out what the snags are, discuss ways of getting round them, escalate as needed, advise the constituent, and maybe go back with fresh information. Second, although you can delegate some casework to staff, you can’t delegate your opinions, and a large proportion of the enquiries are about policy, 7 days a week. I’ve just had two pages from a constituent discussing Iran and asking what I think about different aspects and what actions I’ll take to support what he wants. 10 minutes earlier, it was a similarly lengthy email about Thailidomide victims and whether they’re getting enough support as they get older. 20 minutes before that, it was a teacher criticising the policy of the General Teaching Council. There are scores of them every day, and they keep on through the recess: they want you to raise the issues with ministers, support NGOs, write to embassies, join protests, etc. etc - you really can’t delegate any of it. (You can, of course, simply ignore them or decline - but if that’s what you do, why did you want to be an MP?)
As for John Redwood, would this be the chap whose party has just voted solidly to try to block regional select committees meeting during the recess?
Oh, and runnymede, point me to the post where I claimed MPs were poorly paid? I’ve never said any such thing!
“As for John Redwood, would this be the chap whose party has just voted solidly to try to block regional select committees meeting during the recess?”
What you mean those things to be held during Tory and Lib Dem conference season, but not during Labour conference season! What ever happened to that convention of trying to limit other political activity during conferences, oh wait Mr Redactor blew that straight out the water with his “essential” trip to the troops!
Gimmick or otherwise, “Armed Forces Day” is a good idea, IMO. If it’s “un-British” it’s only because the British have historically had a very ambivalent attitude towards elements of the Armed Forces, ie. the Army.
Just because Brown had a hand in the idea, and whatever the motives, I don’t see how one can object to a day of positive publicity for the Armed Forces and television coverage of how they really are appreciated by large numbers of people, and it can only help in the battles with Govt over the treatment they deserve for their sacrifices.
80, Nick, you know better than that. The conservatives voted to stop any regional committees meeting being held during their party conference, and the Liberal Democrats’. Apparently, none were scheduled during Labour’s conference, for reasons I think we can guess.
NPMP - Busted within 2 minutes.
O/T isn’t it astonishing just what a fantastic Tennis player Andy Murray is. The real thing.
It’s getting more and more difficult to tell NPMP and Tim’s comments apart.
I had presumed that the second jobs tranparency was what Cameron was waiting for before he cleared out the troughers in his Shadow Cabinet?
As it is now rumoured that he doesn’t plan to clear anyone out it seems he intends to fight the next election campaign on the promise that he will lead the most corrupt cabinet in history.
Or have I missed something?
With regards to Nick post,
a) Reminds me of his claims about the Tory MP, who costs very little in expenses, and the claims that he can’t be doing his job properly. It was shown when his local rag tried to do a hatch piece on him, they really couldn’t find he was doing wrong or neglecting. He was generally just being very frugal with the use of taxpayers money and was extremely organised / efficient.
b) All these claims of having to work a million hours a week, reminds me of a lot of people in business, who become over-promoted and just can’t keep up with the demands of the job, can’t properly delegate, can’t assess what is essential and what isn’t, etc.
They end up claiming that they have to work 6 days a week, 12 hours a day, or whatever, just to get the job done. You often find, what is really happening is they are hoarding all the work in an attempt to get lots of credit (and thus further promotion), and completely unwilling to properly delegate to other members of staff.
66 Bar them from second jobs, and they’ll just make more mischief.
I’m quite relaxed about MPs being barristers, journalists, solicitors, etc.
4.”The purge on MP’s having second jobs is just a tool for Labour to bash the Tories with. I hope it backfires spectacularly.”
Totally agree LTL, this is Brown’s attempt to try and gain control of the agenda after the expenses scandal, and he also hopes it will damage the Conservative Party more than Labour or the Libdems. Wrong issue at the wrong time, the focus on second jobs could well end up hurting the government more. He should have concentrated on making the Parliament look more relevant, and a damn sight busier.
Can anyone tell me why disallowing second jobs doesn’t apply to unpaid ones?
If this is about MPs spending too much time elsewhere then it is an issue for both paid or unpaid work.
If it is about being influenced to support certain things then it is an issue for both paid and unpaid work.
If it is purely about stopping MPs earning, the only real explanation, then it is a way of increasing corruption as they take payment ‘in kind’ or attempt to hide any such work.
Is that what people proposing this want?
I can’t see any logic in this at all.
86.Too Harsh
Yes Tim, you missed out the comparison with the present Cabinet.
81, 83: Don’t you guys bother to check your facts at all? The one that was voted down was going to meet in Nottingham on September 9. Remind me whose party conference is scheduled that day? It was simply a vote to disrupt business in the recess, just for the sheer pleasure of disruption (it went through in an ambush on a 1-line whip - normally procedural issues, which are unwhipped, go through on the nod). That’s why Redwood’s comments are hypocritical.
re 65 & 80. most of the case-work is self-generating. If an MP is keen on being seen and reaching people, as part of his/hers re-election campaign, then much more will come in.
The reason MPs emphasise case-work is because it gives them something to do.
What successive governments have done has been is to minimise the role of the back-bench MP to a massive extent. Without case work there would simply be no point being an MP.
When I was a councillor I never saw case-work as being important and while I dealt with it I never encouraged it. The result was that I got far less than my colleagues.
Mike/Others
Are there any polls due tonight ?
90/1
i didn’t think anyone was trying to bar second jobs paid or unpaid, just make the pay and hours tranparent.
Cameron tried to ban them completely but then backed off.
92. So you think the Tory Scrutiny panel has now finished its job and everyone is safe?
It seems to have been sneaked out under Michael Jacksons death.
TIM
GROW UP AND SHUT UP !
87.tim you are so boring. Many of us could go on all day about Gordon Brown’s own troughing and how he has allowed Darling one of the leading trouhers to remain as Chancellor of the Exchequer. We don’t because it’s boring and don’t want to encourage others to stop coming to the site.
Also most of us try to base our blogs on facts not rumours. Why don’t you try to do the same?
http://app.nnet-server.com/server/app/forum/ShowMessage.asp?ID=511905
should be linky to pic. of Keen squat house.
93 - Ohhhhh, temper temper!!!!
Yes, I was fully aware of which was voted down, I commented on the night, the one you would have been involved in.
Tory chief whip Patrick McLoughlin questioned the timing, adding: “Indeed, some of these regional grand committees are taking place when both the Liberal Democrat party conference is and the Conservative party conference, yet none are taking place when the Labour Party conference is taking place.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8119550.stm
Cameron tried to get his Shadow Cabinet to stop second jobs on the grounds that he wanted them to be effectively operating as a Shadow govt in the run up to an election, not because he opposes the idea of second jobs.
Mike - what about the poor old sod whose issue you don’t consider important?
100 (cont) Did the Tories and Lib Dem not vote against all of them? From the report it seems fairly consistent, the opposition didn’t want them on a number of grounds, including the timing of some of the proposed sessions.
“A proposed session in Nottingham on 9 September was rejected by 104 votes to 98…. It then lost the Nottingham vote by six votes. The following five votes were narrowly won by majorities of seven, eight, 15, 19, 21 and finally 25 votes.
14.
1.Well as I say, I’m not prepared to spend 5, 10, 20 more years expending blood and treasure on the hope that we can out shoot the taliban and thereby win over hearts and minds.
2.Good so that charge of Anti-Americanism falls.
3.I you think the way Mr Obama has dealt with the isue of gifts from friendle governments has been good then you are in a minority of I would say 1.
4.Obviously the US is going to have similarly close ties with Japan and Israel. You say. So nothing particularly special about our relationship, which means we have a special obligation to send our bravest young men to die in someone elses civil war.
5.Thankyou for explaining what a debate is, do you have to try hard to be patronising or does it come naturally?
6.It’s uncontroversial that terrorists/rogue regimes should as far as possible be prevented from holding nuclear weapons. How many ground troops do we have in China or N.Korea?
Your definition of Success “would constitute continued disruption of the Taliban until we Pakistan’s democracy settles down to a more stable format”
That’s suitably vague. I’m sorry Mrs Smith your son died in Afghanistan because Pakistan’s democracy hasn’t settled down into a more stable format…
At the very least this discussion has shown that your initial statement that the very worst thing any British government could do would be to withdraw from Afghanistan, is at best debatable & at worst contrary to the very interests you say you seek to defend.
96 - Then the matter of pay is inconsequential, MPs should have to publish the hours they spend on paid and unpaid work as it is the time and influence they wield that matters.
Nick Palmer, I’ve never seen you say “MPs are poorly paid”, but you HAVE claimed that “no one goes into politics for the money”, which we now know, is just total piffle.,
Even the crappiest MP can trouser the equivalent of £100k a year, and most of these people are dull, ugly thieves who would struggle to earn half that outside parliament.
People go into politics PRECISELY for the money, cause for venal halfwits it’s the best way of making some dosh.
And we all know why you do so much constituency casework, cause you told us.
You are a marginal MP highly likely to lose his seat next time around. Your only hope of saving your career, given that you have no principles to admire, and no profile in government to boast about, is to look busy busy busy.
105 - Absolutely.
But that is what the change is, isn’t it?
Why should an MP who is very efficient at managing their time be penalised? Typical Old Labour t0ss - everyone dragged down to the level of the laziest & most inefficient. If Hague wants to spend his late nights making humorous speeches - why not? He should have some “private” time to spend as he sees fit. And non-exec directors - if they get the Board papers to read over the weekend before (as they generally insist upon) - it is no great hardship to turn up for a couple of hours every quarter to ensure companies are properly supervised.
I would personally make it OBLIGATORY for every MP to serve on the Board of at least one plc, one private company and one charity.
107 - Sorry misread that.
The matter of whether someone is paid 100k by a lobbying group or £1,000 is surely relevant to issue of influence.
Piggy flu at Glastonbury,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/8122559.stm
100.”Tory chief whip Patrick McLoughlin questioned the timing, adding: “Indeed, some of these regional grand committees are taking place when both the Liberal Democrat party conference is and the Conservative party conference, yet none are taking place when the Labour Party conference is taking place.””
Seriously? Thanks.
“It was simply a vote to disrupt business in the recess, just for the sheer pleasure of disruption (it went through in an ambush on a 1-line whip - normally procedural issues, which are unwhipped, go through on the nod). That’s why Redwood’s comments are hypocritical.”
NickP, now who is really playing disruptive and hypocritical games just for the hell of it? Considering the length of time that Parliament is not sitting this year, you don’t think that they could have avoided dates which clashed with opposition party conferences? And you wonder why Redwood&Co voted the way they did, incredible.
111 - Also, how is voting against having to attempt a talking shop, disrupting business in recess? Surely the talking shop is the potential disruption, and the government attempted to force it through without no proper debate.
“But the government’s plans - which have already been criticised by opposition parties for being too costly - came under fire in the Commons when a series of dates and locations were listed - but there was no opportunity to debate them.”
Democracy in action there, New Labour style!
110 Just the odd 180,000 people at risk then…
109 - Corruption ic corruption, whether they pay you a fiver or five million. Money is not the issue.
Mousavi rejects recount
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1095966.html
103: Oracle, that’s why the excuse about party conferences is tosh. The Tories voted against ALL meetings in the recess, whether they were during conferences or not.
Mike: no offence, but isn’t it possible that what you say means you weren’t a very good councillor? There are so many people out there who get into difficulty because they don’t know whom to ask for help, and the councillors who advertise their willingness to help do get more than those who think it’s not important. More even than MPs, councillors really need to make that service known, and I don’t think you will have had the ‘policy’ letters that MPs are deluged with?
114.“But the government’s plans - which have already been criticised by opposition parties for being too costly - came under fire in the Commons when a series of dates and locations were listed - but there was no opportunity to debate them.”
This just gets worse and worse, no wonder Redwood voted against it!
The government manages to make sure that Parliament is almost irrelevant this year, and then tries to implement this costly con instead. We are certainly not getting value for money as taxpayers right now.
Re main theme - be fair I saw at least two MPs today at a ceremony to give Freedom of the County to the Rifles and they did have to drink some wine and take some snacks at the reception. Clearly one of the would be MPs needed to learn as he got an invite to the do as well.
I think some backbench Conservative MPs are in danger of entering the Brown trap again in entering into talking about second jobs.
The Tories should be hammering Labour for the fact that some folk have no job due to Labour incompetence, in the near future Labours rape of the public finances will mean swinging cuts in the public sector even if Labour (Had a miracle
) and got re-elected.
Second Jobs is a classic Gordon Brown dividing line. Despite the fact that quite a few of his MPs have second jobs themselves!
Indeed Gordon Brown seems to be making any constitutional issue a dividing line to take public attention away from the pressing subject of exploding unemployment. Just like Brown did with changing the electoral system.
For someone who is Clever - Redwood has walked into this one!
118.NickP, how this for a novel idea, just make Parliament sit for longer and allow much more debate and scrutiny on the floor of the HoC’s? I bet you would get a much more positive response from opposition MP’s to that suggestion. And to be honest, with the economic crisis we are in right now, those MP’s were right not to allow your government to waste money in this way.
It got voted down because it was a costly, politiking scam from the government, the same government that has gone out of its way to avoid proper scrutiny and debate in Parliament this year.
118
Were the tories given an option?
118 - Nick, your argument is laughable, no wonder you never get anywhere in politics.
Your side deliberately timed some of the debates during the opposition conference season, dirty tricks, and absolutely not on (you know the convention). Furthermore, there were no opportunity to even debate, let alone negotiate the timings of them. The opposition also were quoted saying they think they are a waste time and money.
So, why it is then hypocritical to vote down all of them? Three good reasons in their mind to vote against, seems fairly consistent with that view then to vote against all of them.
121 - doesn’t Gordon Brown have a second job? When else does he have time to write those crap books?
123 - No, there was no debate or negotiation on the timing of these things. A list of dates was produced by the government and that was it. Amazingly some of the proposed dates were for during the Tory and Lib Dem conference season, but none during the Labour one.
118.
When ever you mention ‘the Tories’ I cannot help but think of that film Carry on up the Khyber! The Labour lot are the natives trying to kill the British army (Tories).
Labour think they have the Tories and this happens -
http://www.kiltmen.com/khyber.jpg
Argh - the Tories!!!!!
118, consistency required voting against all the meetings since holding some at the scheduled time and others at unknown dates is clearly inequitable. Furthermore, there is very little that should through on the nod, if anything. Scrutinising everything is part of an MPs job, especially when in opposition.
126
What a surprise. It’s like sticking some outrageous affront to liberty in an otherwise completely innocuous bill. No Government would do that surely?
125.
Yes i forgot about that!
Brown’s books sell only for the same reason L. Ron Hubbard’s do — if you’re one of the faithful, you have to get ‘em.
118 - I don’t think that Nick Palmer is correct.
As I recollect, the possibility of September sittings (with which I agree) were the subject of a free vote in 2007 and a number of Conservatives, such as myself, voted for them.
Obviously we were outvoted by MPs of all parties.
88. A cabinet composed of a random selection from Wormwood Scrubs, Dartmoor and Rampton could hardly be worse than what we currently have.
133 - You seem to be submerged under a swimming pool and a berber carpet, I can’t hear you.
Do you have any of Gordon Brown’s books, tim?
With around 70% of legislation now being decided by Brussels,Scotland doing their own thing (20 Scottish MP’s replaced by 129 MSP’s) its absurd to still have 646 MP’s,around half that number would be plenty and might give them enough to fill their time and provide value to the taxpayer.
134 - Up to your normal puerile standards Tim?
137 - “I’m not answering the questions. There is no point continuing to ask me about this.
Well I hope the BBC have got a back up plan! They just killed off Robin Hood!
My kids have been big fans of the show, the youngest just asked me to write a letter of complaint to the organisation. Idiots.
Last week we saw Alan Williams supervise the election of the new Speaker in his role as Father of the House.He was first elected back in 1964 , and I wonder if Nick Palmer - or indeed anyone else - would like to comment on how far the role of an MP has changed since that time in terms of workload and more general expectations of them.My sense is that back in the 60s they were a fair bit more distant in relation to the general public with much more social deference being shown towards them, and less seen as glorified councillors in the way they appear to be today.They were also in real terms less well paid and received only basic secretarial support and other facilities.
Murray straight sets!
118
‘and I don’t think you will have had the ‘policy’ letters that MPs are deluged with?’
Surely 7 out of 10 of these letters should be simply redirected to the local MEP?
I notice the Smearbot getting more moist over Manmohan Singh, than his usual squeezes, the other night, is this why?
ID cards for India: 1.1billion citizens will go into second largest citizens’ database
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1195916/ID-cards-India-1-1billion-citizens-second-largest-citizens-database.html
Murray through in straight sets-C’MON ANDY!!!
132.Stewart, good to see you back posting again.
143 - notice -> noted
139 not to mention The Vicar of Dibley’s husband and Keith Allen
I think we can safely kiss that franchise goodbye
139 - was he killed because he made a stupid mistake like failing to embrace multi-culturalism or realising that just giving money to poor people creates a benefit culture?
137. SJMP -
I think Tim has been on a Bender today!
For Tims own safety i hope he does not go to a Michael Barrymore Party or Tim will certainly be a victim of too much drink! 
149. Tim = Floater!
Evening All,
On topic, is 140 days a year of parilamentary work actually part-time, considering they also have constituency work to do?
If you have a full time job, Mondays-Fridays make up only about 260 days. Take off 9 bank holidays, 25 days’ annual leave and the occasional sick day, and you’re already down to about 220. So 140 days of parliament assumes 80 days’ worth of constituency work.
Personally I find it hard to imagine how so many of them manage to fit in other part time jobs as well!
Rob
139 - how did he die?
Tim
Just logged on, I note you are just as odious as ever, this morning it was smears about Nadine. Last night it was smears all the way.
Tomight its the same…
HenryG is a genius! This evening he suggested backing Murray to win his match in < 29.5 games.
He’s just won 6-2, 6-3, 6-4, i.e. a total of 27 games, ensuring that food is on the table!
152.Apparently got stabbed by a poisoned blade.
154, hehe, first HenryG tip I haven’t taken (I think) since I signed on for his tip service.
re 118. I find it really sad when an MP or a councillor defines their role mainly in terms of their case-work.
You were elected as a legislator and to hold the executive to account.
The trouble that Labour has so emasculated the commons that you have so little function left at Westminster itself.
What’s got to happen is for the government power over the house to be thwarted. Let’s hope that John Bercow can play a part supported by MPs of all parties.
133. Your mother told you that you would go deaf. Should have listen to her.
157, well, we should have a good indicator of this when we see whether Bercow savages Balls for briefing the media before addressing the Commons, or rolls over for the PLP to tickle his tummy.
158 - You seem to have directed your self abuse comment at yourself.
160. No, it is you who said you could not hear.
150 - Oiiii - I resent that
Well ITV have dropped Primeval and said it can’t afford to compete with drama before 9pm. It’s in financial trouble so we just get the cheapo rubbish from now on.
Robin Hood hadn’t yet been recommisioned apparently.
Well done Andy!
BTW chucking it down in east London between 5.30 and 7ish! Now it’s calm again!
108. Very well put SeanT. Nick even less convincing than usual.
Mike too has it right - backbench MPs have created for themselves this role of local ‘champion’/social worker in attempt to find a role/boost their profile. It isn’t actually the proper function of MPs, nor is it necessary.
O/T Murray brilliant I thought - amazing range of shots and a ruthless edge. Fingers crossed he seems to deserve his favoured status…
163, I saw one or two episodes of Robin Hood. Well, a few minutes. Tedious, politically correct and uninteresting. Give me I, Claudius any day.
165, I thought Murray was very good as well but his opponent didn’t turn up for most of the match. Likewise Gulbis. Kendrick was unlucky to meet Murray in the first round, I thought he played very well.
Surprised Kuznetsova went out so early.
163.”Robin Hood hadn’t yet been recommisioned apparently.”
Thanks ukpaul, but to actually kill off Robin Hood!! Miserable idiots!
Does anyone have problems with sound on the BBC website ?? i couldbt hear anything on the Murray game nor could I hear any sound from clips on the Today programme. You tube songs play just fine??
166.Morris Dancer, its one of the few kids drama’s that all my children will sit down and watch. They enjoyed it, and it hit the market it was aimed at, surely job done successfully?
The fact that it was chosen over Murray winning at Wimbledon says it all.
157. “I find it really sad when an MP or a councillor defines their role mainly in terms of their case-work.” said Mike
You are definetly in the wrong party then as that is the LD USP!
“The trouble that Labour has so emasculated the commons that you have so little function left at Westminster itself.”
(Please do not take the following personally.)
Thats what happens when you get tactical voting to defeat a party and why i will not enter into that even if i lived in a seat where LD was say 1000 votes behind Labour i would still vote Tory. LD are as much to blame as Labour for emasculating the commons in allowing/facilating a 179 majority for a few dozen extra seats in return that effectively allowed the H of C to be very much watered down. The opposition MP numbers was split and then the pious LD joined Cabinet committees etc. Your party Mike (LD) holds the blame with Labour. I am old enough to rember how government operated pre-1997 and Parliament was at the centre of things with ministerial statements to the house not the TV screens and then little to debate etc. Your trust and confidence in Bercow is completly misplaced as Bercow has no power to change things.
Just seen the previous thread. ‘Dodgy Gord’ and ‘Honest Dave’! It doesn’t even scan! Everyone knows in ‘Sunspeak’ it’s got to be ‘Dodgy Dave’!
And as Tim keeps saying with his nutjob partners in Europe and his rather whiffy shadow cabinet it might still happen!
168 Its the way they killed him too - a sneaky rear attack with a posioned blade and a slow death - as opposed to Alan a Dale’s heroic run through the hail of arrows last week or Gisburne throwing himself in front of the blade to save Robin.
Indescrbably lame way to off the Hoodster! lol
168. He gets killed off in the original Gest of Robyn Hode as well. Medieval troubadours were miserable too.
170, well, good that your kids like it. I didn’t.
Regarding the thread. Yes and No. Firstly most MPs do work very hard so that point has to be made. Yet I do agree that often they are working very hard at the wrong things. Power should be devolved locally. The comment is right that councils should be doing many things. All too often MPs are just chasing up things that other people should be doing or that the constituent didn’t know to follow up by another route. Much of it is routine stuff and elected reps sometimes feel reluctant to be honest with some residents and just say, “look this is something you should be able to chase up directly”. The power that is left at Westminster then needs using properly and the artcile is spot on that there is no proper scrutiny of the Executive and no power for MPs to drive their own business.
169 - Try this.
It reminds me of Peterborough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgrIIuFeBgo
What is up with the Three Line Whip, it goes days without any new articles now? And what has happened to Iain Martin, he was one of the most prolific bloggers on the site?
O/T
There is an extended rerun of HIGNFY at 9 on BBC2. Is it the most recent? Is it worth watching?
168 - Christina, as far as I know it still hasn’t but there is a plan already for a fourth series so he needn’t really be dead.
Of course, with Primeval they’d already completed the final episode before they canned it and so it was left on a cliffhanger. As such we may well never know how they get out of it.
178 - Iain Martin has left the UKIP-graph (I assume that is the new name for the Telegraph).
180.&181. Thanks. Anyone know where Iain Martin is going to go next?
169 Sounds like a Flash player issue - I had similar where streaming was fine but iPlayer was blocky on video/audio iffy.
The tech guys recommended that I installed/reinstalled latest Flash Player. Seemed to almost fix it - not 100% but better.
http://order-order.com/2009/06/27/keens-squatters-are-angry-taxpayers/#comment-173573
173
Didnt Errol Flynn conquer Burma almost single handed without any help from the British?? (Objective Burma circ 1950???. Rewriting of history.. YUK
My father was out in Burma in the war and he certainly was not amused.
On this MP case worker debate, I disagree with Sean T and Mike Smithson. Many people do look to their MPs to solve problems, which perhaps, should be dealt with by social workers. But given the shortage of social workers, it is understandable that people turn to their local MP.
I’ve met local councillor and MPs who say that their local surgeries give them a chance to get in touch with local people and gauge what the issue and problems are. Once you start moving into the realm of “I’m a very important member of Cabinet. I’m far too important to deal with issues of “Why didn’t my little Johnny get into the school we wanted for him “” you are down the road of hubris and disconnecting from the people who vote for you.
I think we’ve all seen from the expenses debacle what happens to MPs who disconnect with their local voters.
184 - I liked this comment, “Guido, please can you tell us where this is, so that we can take round ‘camping gaz’ stoves, soup, beans, burgers, barbecues, sausages, tins of lager and other essentials for a long stay without them having to ‘leave the house’ for supply reccies ??
They must be given every help and assistance !!
174. I rather like ‘Robin and Marion’ with Connery and Robert Shaw. Quite an intelligent and original take on the legend.
172 - except the Sun itself, it seems, which is incresingly of the opinion that Brown is a useless, dishonest, weirdo.
179 - I think that episode is from the previous series.
These arguments have probably been made already before:
1st - an MPs salary (around 60 grand) isn’t actually huge for what they do.
2nd - it’s not really a ‘holiday’ because they still have to deal with constituency work & that
3rd - teachers have a broadly similar arrangement
187 - Protests like that are irresponsible.
Peterborough MP Stewart Jackson has condemned protesters who gathered at his home on Saturday with the intention of swimming in his pool for wasting police time.
About 30 people, some dressed in swimming costumes, walked from Central Park to the MP’s home in the city at 2pm on Saturday (13 June).
It followed the recent MPs’ expenses revelations during which Mr Jackson promised to repay more than £300 claimed for pool maintenance.
http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/MP-Jackson39s-anger-over-pool.5365692.jp
186. One could say that maybe the intrusion and extent of the state has also caused an explosion in casework that is inapproriatly called social work. That is what happens when the state gobbles up so much National income and regulates/controls or seeks inflience over so many different things.
Lets remeber Tax Credits is an issue that effects many folk, that is not a social worker issue but one of the Government (HRMC or what ever it is called) paying out to much and causing hardship etc. I once wrote to my MP on getting it backdated, to his credit he did write to a minister for me and send the reply (NO). But on an other issue, he just refused to help beyond another point because it was too much hassle/ potentially politically inconvenent etc. I dont vote for Sheerman so he has hardly lost my vote and i would not say on that measure he had done anything wrong but he could have done more.
In terms of this social worker issue - what are we talking about? Dog shit problems or noisy neighbours?
193. One further point on this - I think it is very likely that many MPs actually have little interest in, or aptitude for, doing the job of a legislator.
193. paying out to much and causing hardship etc
Sorry i should have added and then asking for overpayments back.
My point with getting Taxcredits backdated was that if folk have to pay them back for being overpaid what was the problem with back dating them?
someone has posted on guido claiming it is from Sundry Trends.
42 Con, 25 Lab 18 Libs. Is it a wind up?
“Well ITV have dropped Primeval and said it can’t afford to compete with drama before 9pm.”
Use your bedside lamp to cast strange hand-shadows on the ceiling. These will be scarier and more dramatically satisfying than anything in ‘Primeval’.
ITV dropped ‘Demons’ as well, a show which made ‘Dr Who’ look like ‘2001: A Space Odyssey’.
192, incredible have to agree with tim. Yes this protest is irresponsible. They should just have waited for the council to repossess and the police to charge the Keens with obtaining pecuniary advantage.
196, probably, but Guido’s commentators have been right once or twice.
Just Sky the Elvis wannabe saying the Telegraph are going to reveal the outside earnings of some MP’s.
194. I know what you mean! I used to do litigation of RTA for a job and liked reading therough the legislation and case law to prove my arguments or find something that ‘won’ the case, same with when i did mortgage financial advice. I actually like it but many find it deadly boring! I should imagine MPs who are used to doing wealth creating/ business or someother job not using the skills find it boring! To be honest when they become MPs they are in the wrong job!
Martin = Boring Bastard!
Hi,Martin,as I recall,Tax Credits are backdated-but only 8 or 13 weeks (I forget which)
196.
I read it differently:
New Poll out for the Sunday Times
Conservative 42%
Labour 25%
Liberal Democrat 19%
http://order-order.com/2009/06/27/police-called-to-keen-house-over-squatters/#comments
I see tim :hearts: Indian politicians who force people to carry ID cards.
203. Would that be ICM. Someone did say they were polled a couple of days ago
164 Sunil - That was one bad thunderstorm, annoyingly I had spent quite some time watering the garden before it hit.
The ridiculous thing about Harman’s “proposals” to ban second jobs is that she claimed they were in part a response to expensesgate! Most MPs believe that the expenses problems amounted directly from a disconnect between the value of the work MPs believed they were doing and the public opinions on what they should be paid. So you got this allowances system as a way of “compensating” MPs for restrictions on their pay.
God only knows how she thinks this situation would be improved by removing alternative sources for MP’s income!
Of course the whole thing should be unworkable, because they will inevitably try and exempt professionals eg. doctors who claim that they need to maintain their professional knowledge should they leave politics, which begs the question of how you define these exemptions, but that won’t stop them trying.
At least, if that Sunday Times poll is right, ID cards are looking less and less likely here.
Guido posters poll tips almost invariably prove to be a load of cobblers.
202. Patrick, hope you are well - 13 weeks IIRC!
I was trying to get them backdated beyond that point. It must have been 7 years or so ago and i was in a low paid bank job! I had been their about a year and discovered i was eleible for tax credits and thought it worth asking if i could have them backdating for a year. It was not just for me but others who were eligible. I was unsuccesful but at least i tried! Sheerman refused to do an EDM or question in the house on it after the minister said no. He could have gone further IMO but we all know what Barry is like!
206. Tawny - Thunderstorms always make me feel horny for some reason!
Maybe i should have ket that one to myself!
Martin Day: I’m not talking about dog shit but issues that have a profound effect on certain people’s lives. For example, elderly people having to care for a partner who has Alzheimer’s, a parent having to run a sponsored marathon to provide their disabled child with the wheelchair the child need.
In theory these support services should be provided by social services. The reality is that most often they are not.
I don’t think a Sunday Times poll is expected this weekend!
207. Alex, this second jobs thing is a dividing line that Brown wants to use at PMQs - it is blatently obvious what Brown is upto. He wants to talk about MPs saving their jobs whilst the country lose their livelyhoods due to Labour economic mismanagement.
Does ICM do polls for the S Times, I thought they were tied into the Guardiand and polled under a diff name to avoid legal complications ????
S Times is You Gov isnt it???
They said theere would be Thunders showers but a low risk it was sunny when I set off on the tube at about 3.30. Then two signal failures on the Central line Epping branch and then the Anglia lines out of Liverpool Street prevented me from going where I wanted to go today and to top it all the heavens opened!
It’s the negative ions.
YouGov normally in Daily Telegraph and Sunday Times.
ICM mormally in Guardian and Sunday Telegraph.
212. Well bothe of those are health issues and presumbably the local health authority has failed to deliver. I am surprised MPS do not use councillors with the authority of the MPs office to intervene, failing that a bright researcher to ram the point home. If neither worked the MP could get involved and go to ask the question in parliament to the health secreatary via oral or written question. The MPs involvement IMO has increased becasue people want to cut out the lower levels of beuracracy - that is what is says to me and actually their is a silver ligning for MPs in that this shortcut means they are trusted more than the faceless beurocrats. (Sorry about the spelling!)
On topic - wish I had 17 weeks off each year - imagine how many train stations I could visit in that amount of time!
Maybe i should have ket that one to myself?
Evening all,
The last Sunday Times poll (Yougov) was only a couple of weeks ago so I’m doubtful they would have another one. However, the last Sunday Telegraph (ICM) poll was a month ago so another could be due.
Sunil I have 5 part time jobs, I get 5.6 weeks holiday in each ie 28 weeks total, but I seem to be very busy all the time 5.6 weeks when each job is an few hrs a week isnt that much!
220. As long as visiting train stations does not cause a hard on i would not worry about it!
221.And some Telegraph polls tend not to appear to very late in the evening either.
211/220 It must be ‘true confessions’ Saturday today.
Today is a moment in history…
1967 Britain’s first cash dispenser was opened by Barclays Bank in Enfield.
225. I am always frank on these matters - I freely admit that if i travel by Bus and sit on the seats over the rear wheels i get a stiffy!
It must be the vibrations!
227 Martim, Why do you have to be so frank?
I’m definitely going cold turkey now that I’ve captured (on film!) everything within the M25 plus the 5 tube stations outside it. I was planning today to revisit two stations where the photos were “sub-optimal” due to poor light and time constraints (it happens!) when I previously went there but I couldn’t do either!
228. Why not?
Some thoughtful comments on the thread, though note that Mike’s shifting his ground - he’s moved on from saying that MPs can delegate everything to councils so are idle in the recess to saying that well, maybe they do stuff, but they ought to be doing something else.
But the reason the job is attractive is that you can do both local things and national issues, and have to, nearly all the time, including in the recess. I think Mike overestimates the formal procedures in Parliament and underestimates the role of direct discussion with the decision-makers. All the policy changes that I’ve seen decisions were changed by discussion and pressure behind the scenes, not votes, though the possibility of adverse votes is the back-up that informs the discussion. For example, we’ve not had a vote on Royal Mail semi-privatisation, yet it’s mysteriously slowed right down - that’s because MPs have been twisting Ministers’ arms over it. Incidentally, the post-97 Labour MPs have been the most rebellious in psotwar history (cf. Cowley’s books).
Responding to Justin, yes - I wasn’t around pre-97 but colleagues who were say the idea that you’re a familiar local face centered in the constituency and people can grab you on any subject on earth is relatively new. Going back further, reading about Churchill’s life, it’s clear that he saw constituencies simply as labels to get him into the Commons.
Is it a bad thing? I’m not sure - obviously the ’social worker’ side of the job can be overpowering, but I think that there is always scope to make a name in your preferred field in Parliament if you want to - to take a non-partisan example, David Davis has specialised in his preferred issues without apparently being weighed down by having to sort out neighbour problems, though I’m sure he has to do tha too.
230, because antifrank won’t like it
231 Nick, I am sure you are working really hard, what with that waferish majority. I guess the “communications” allowance is a great bonus….
“Some thoughtful comments on the thread”
plus Martin
232. LOL!
235, thank you, I try my best.
Having seen all the pictures of the weather in London, very pleased to say we’ve not had a drop here at Glastonbury.
On topic, I find this to be something that I thought would get brought up much sooner. MP’s pay puts them in the very top earners, we should get more for that money.
Off to see Jarvis Cocker next.
191
‘1st - an MPs salary (around 60 grand) isn’t actually huge for what they do.’
What other jobs require no educational qualifications,no skills or experience and pays £ 64,000 plus expenses???????
237. Cocker: He’s on QT next week.
238, I’m not sure but I’d guess they don’t involve running the country.
MPs should have far fewer allowances, a higher basic salary and smaller pensions.
234. I think positioning ‘when posting’ is key - I like to be straight up!
240. PM runs the country - didn’t you read Mike’s intro?
John Bercow in new Sleaze sxpose:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/5663652/Commons-Speaker-John-Bercow-accused-of-profiting-from-work-as-Government-adviser.html
224 Christina - we won:-)
My Lions supporting brother-in-law and niece seemed to think it would have been better to have kept the series alive (up to a point) with a draw….can’t agree though, looking forward to 3-0.
Of course in Tennis I’m “Go Andy, go!”
Think I’m right - if Murray wins Wimbledon against Federer in the final, then Nadal remains No 1, but only 5 ranking points ahead of Murray, who would be 210 ranking points ahead of Federer - so only 215 ranking points across the Top 3. That would be great for second half of year with every match counting towards who ends in No 1.
231 Nick , thank you for your comments.I am pretty sure that the idea of MPs holding regular surgeries is also quite new - though it must now be almost inconceivable that an MP would not do this!
I recall very well the shock defeat of Jenny Lee by Patrick Cormack at Cannock in 1970 , and that one of the factors cited being that she very rarely visited her constituency!
240. But MPs *don’t* run the country, they’re little more than lobby fodder. Just what authority does an MP have these days?
If they actually did the job and did run the country, then yes, they’d deserve more money - but not forgetting that if they cocked things up they’d get the bullet.
244.Ted, edge of the seat stuff until the very last kick of the ball.
244. William Hill
Andy Murray to be year end world number 1 - 2009 Specials 29 Jun 09 - 13:10 More markets Selection Price
Yes 4/1
240
I thought it was the government with your average backbench MP’s job spec split between social worker and delegate.
243. I would not put it past No.10 researching and posting this after delivering Bercow to the chair. Tories blah blah blah. Why are we run by such fools.
As i have said Tories second jobs is Browns dividing line and Brown will do anything include installing a wanker like Bercow into the chair as a conduit to making a point against the Tories. Unfortuntenly Bercow being politically Dumb failed to see it coming or thought his sell out to Labour would mean he was ok!
The real give away is the linking to Ashcroft!
Brown = Blatently obvious!
243 oh dear……………..
241. Regular surgeries aren’t that new - my parents and their contemporaries often used to recall how good in that respect Oswald Moseley was when he was their Lab MP - and that was in the late 20s/early 30s.
251. Indeed - But what Tories have to watch for is Browns lot trying to use it against them as they will say Bercow was a Tory MP. As i said in my last comment the Ashcroft dimension is evidence of No.10 press feeding!
Brown wants MPs second jobs to cast aspertions on the Tories - Very obvious! Despite the number of Labour MPs with second jobs!
251 - I thought you were in favour of MPs having second jobs?
or is it Bercow that you have a problem with
Can I just say I have no objection to MPs earning money in 2nd jobs. What’s the problem? And I’m referring to fat drooling Labourites with nice newspaper columns as WELL as smug pinstriped Tories with cosy directorships.
If you are good enough to earn money and still do your day job - then good luck to you - go earn the money. If you aren’t good enough, you will be sacked.
It’s not greed and hard work that people object to in their MPs, its the thieving, cheating and hypocrisy.
“Darling tries to hide Labour cuts from voters”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6591262.ece
Not sure if someone posted:
“Trident nuclear deterrent replacement under review
Ministers have secretly placed the £20 billion replacement for Britain’s Trident nuclear deterrent under review in a move which could see it dramatically scaled down.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/5661301/Trident-nuclear-deterrent-replacement-under-review.html
188 Yes, it was quite a moving film. Particularly the way it showed Robin and the Sheriff of Nottingham as old adversaries who had a great deal of respect for each other.
252 That is interesting! I grew up in Pembrokeshire at the time that Desmond Donnelly was the local MP. He was held in very regard as a constituency member , and was frequently praised for holding regular surgeries - unlike his predecessor Gwilym Lloyd George whom he defeated in 1950!
“Revealed: MPs’ pay from second jobs
Details of how much MPs earn from their second jobs and how many hours they work can be disclosed by The Sunday Telegraph today.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/5666311/Revealed-MPs-pay-from-second-jobs.html
243 A face that only a mother could love.
260 lol the Telegraph are not happy that the Tories dd not want to play along with their expose.
Brothers Brogan and Pierce obviously feel ‘transparancy’ = ‘confess’ all at the feet of the Holiest of Barclays
256 So Labour have given up all pretence of governing then…
The public finances… yeah, whatever.
Go on guys - stop buying UK debt. Then we’ll see if Darling can avoid telling us the real story.
243 - Sean Fear - Or perhaps not:
Women More Likely Than Men to Reject Unattractive Babies
Study casts doubt on notion of moms’ unconditional love
Posted June 24, 2009
WEDNESDAY, June 24 (HealthDay News) — Women are more likely than men to look away from less-than-cute babies, according to a study that challenges the idea of a mother’s unconditional love.
http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/healthday/2009/06/24/women-more-likely-than-men-to-reject-unattractive.html
“Tell us the truth, Mr Brown
Would he lie to us? Extracting a candid answer from the prime minister isn’t easy, especially on public spending”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6591122.ece
Oops that was of course to 261
O/T John Inverdale looked really weird tonight from Wimbledon. After a while, I worked out that it was his right eye which was almost closed - is it always thus, or had he just lost a fight with the missus?
When Jenny Lee did turn up, locals didn’t take kindly to her wearing a fur coat.
263 So we have Nick Palmer and other Labour posters on here, Labour supporting journalists all repetitively saying “Mr Cameron nust tell us where he is going to cut (basically what are his spending plans) and the Government, which actually has to do this so departments can plan, delays it until after the election.
There is no longer any pretence at governing, everything is about positioning for an election or creating dividing lines. The Queens Speech (plus anything supplemental that Gordon Brown holds back for debate - having no sense of propriety nor constitutional niceties) will be policies to upset Tories, attempts to put in statute social or other progressive objectives, and lots of fluff.
269. Brown should just go to the palace and get an election.
No point in this rubbish being drawn out any further.
Breaking News on Sky and BBC: Michael Jackson has died !
271. I wonder how long it will be until the conspiracy theorists think he is still alive like elvis!
271 - Is that what it is.
I just saw “Jackson Family Request Second Post Mortem” and thought it was the MP for Peterborough appealing his expense claims.
272 - read it yesterday, in the Times comments no less.
re 269. Perhaps Mr Palmer might like to comment on the ST story above - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6591122.ece - on the cuts row and how his boss continues to lie and lie?
“City benefactors donate millions to Tories”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/5664971/City-benefactors-donate-millions-to-Tories.html
274. The Ravan - I doubt “they” will be satisfied until they have verified pictures of the body by an expert plus scientific backing.
For the Jackson family to be in peace - one wonders whether that is exactly what they will do?
Tim will still be posting as though Labour are still the Govt long after they have been mauled by the electorate. I can see it now..its a conspiracy…
245 - the exception that proves the rule was Erci Forth. He was famous for despising constituency casework, and would say things like “I am here to represent them in Parliament, not to sort out their petty daily problems” - Mike’s sentiments, more brutally expressed. It’s said he would actually bin letters about personal problems, without even replying that he wasn’t going to take action. He came within one vote of deselection, but his voters re-elected him regularly anyway, which shows what either that people actually don’t mind this attitude, or that a safe seat allows you to get away with anything.
re 279. A “safe seat” what the Lib Dems came within a few hundred votes of taking in the 2006 by election.
275 - from the article you reference:
Among some ministers, however, a cynical view persists that the truth or falsehood of the party’s position on public spending is irrelevant. All that counts is that the simple idea that the Tories are “cutters” is communicated to their core working-class vote.
“We don’t care if the commentators or the economists turn against us,” said one minister. “This is all about shoring up the base in the northern heart-lands, which we lost in the European elections. We don’t want or need them to understand the nuance of the argument. We just want them to hate the Tories again.”
260 It really is scorched earth from Labour - no comprehensive spending review but promises like this (which have been properly costed and budgeted for?):
“The document, officially entitled Building Britain’s Future, will offer a “guarantee” to all parents that if their children fall behind in maths or English they will be provided with private one-to-one tuition paid for by the state.
Brown hopes the promise will woo middle-class parents who send their children to state schools but pay for extra out-of-hours lessons to coach them for exams.
The prime minister will also offer a “guarantee” that cancer patients will see a specialist within two weeks of referral. Should local National Health Service hospitals be unable to see a patient, he or she will be sent private, with the cost paid by the primary care trust.”
So they can renovate their property portfolios of course.
Squatters move into Keens’ empty home.
275 - So this is not about honesty, truth, or doing what’s best for the country.
It’s about Labour party politics, pure and simple.
Wrong link sorry Squatters move into Keens’ empty home.
275 - also from this article:
Meanwhile it is understood that Darling has decided to defer the next comprehensive spending review until after the next general election. Labour will sail into the campaign next spring offering no clear breakdown of how it would spend taxpayers’ money.
Apart from a few eye-catch-ing pledges probably on health and education, voters will probably still have no better idea about Labour’s true intentions than they do now
282 With Balls yesterday, Brown today Mr Speaker Bercow will have some bottoms to smack next week will he not.
Though the question is will he act?
106.
3. You are taking my words out of context: I stated he accepted his gifts he has been given graciously, which is true.
4. There is a difference between “special” and “exclusive”
5. As you can see by my answer to point 4., it comes quite naturally, particularly on internet forums
6. I am not an ideological person and base my view on pragmatics. Obviously the attempt to keep nukes out the hands of crazies needs to be balanced against the risk of starting world war three. “Your son died to prevent nuclear warheads getting in the hands of extremely dangerous people” is a suitably strong explanation.
7 (to number your last point). I completely disagree. Of all the things that Brown could conceivably do, a huge foreign policy mistake leading to nuclear proliferation and political instability is the worst of them. I don’t believe you have raise any points to counter that.
284. Considering they have never governed with the interest of the country as a whole in mind, I find your surprise odd.
287
If Speaker Bercow wants the confidence the House, not only now, but for future Govts, he will have to act. Failure to do so would put him in a very difficult position.
286.”Meanwhile it is understood that Darling has decided to defer the next comprehensive spending review until after the next general election. Labour will sail into the campaign next spring offering no clear breakdown of how it would spend taxpayers’ money.”
They deserved to lose the election for that reason alone. That is a classic example of this government’s incompetence and lack of leadership in a nutshell. IIRC, way back in the Autumn of last year, I warned that Brown’s last and only chance of salvaging his premiership, was to level with the voters. If he had taken the lead back then, given an honest appraisal of the country’s finances, and declared that he would take the tough action needed to rebalance the books. He might, just might have got some of the credit and looked and sounded like a leader for the tough times ahead. As it is, he has made himself look and sound shifty and dishonest, lacking in any ability to take tough decisions. He isn’t a leader, and has left that vacuum to be filled by the so called novice and his team. Big mistake.
287 Ted - should be interesting to see what happens. I hope Bercow lives up to his promise.
Personally I can only see all of this backfiring on the government. If they haven’t conducted a CSR how can they make spending commitments? Are they raising taxes, cutting other things?
Govt recruiting 100000 more teachers according to BBC News. Will happen after the election in Autumn next year. Can we expect more of this phantom spending?
289 - I always try to be optimistic, yet expect the worst. Labour have rarely disappointed me.
288 - 59 year ago today the US sent troops into Korea.
Many of the wrong headed arguments about Afghanistan/Pakistan that you have been arguing against were used then.
293 do you mean 100,000 really…
277 - Fox News over here is reporting that the second autopsy team were very surprised by the large amount of scar tissue on Jackson’s face.
Also the Jackson personal doctor - a man named Murray - has never left LA and is apparently cooperating with police via a high price lawyer who flew in from Houston last night.
293.”Govt recruiting 100000 more teachers according to BBC News. Will happen after the election in Autumn next year. Can we expect more of this phantom spending?”
Shouldn’t this be announced in Parliament? Is this Ed Balls doing his own thing again? And how the hell can they expect this kind of announcement to be seen as credible when they intend to defer the next comprehensive spending review until after the next general election?
We are moving into the realms of fantasy announcements IMHO.
Any optimism is admirable, regrettably the country has been mismanaged so badly that there will be little to be optimistic about for many years. (291) I wish the CSR spending taxpayers’ money (as little as possible), it is the spending of creditors money we should be worrying about.
291 - Thats the smartest post of yours I’ve read, and is the root of why I think Labour will replace Brown before the election.
293.Is that Ed talking Balls again?
re 231 OK Nick so you freely admit that the MP’s lot involves local and national issues. Tell me then why are we paying you colleagues from Scotland as much as you?
“The PM Laureate… Brown turns to poet Andrew Motion to liven up his speeches”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196014/The-PM-Laureate–Brown-turns-poet-Andrew-Motion-liven-speeches.html
re 267 PfP I think he injured it at a rowing event earlier this year. Walked into something or other.
260. Mike Smithson
After he was dead! A bye - election. LD had a crap record there and LD will no doubt get wiped out in the GE!
You are a LD mike but even your pious bullshit that is sometimes posted that was dreadfull!
302 - brilliant, the worst PM ever consulting the most mediocre Laureate ever to make his speeches more interesting. Actually that’s not fair - the new person might be even worse.
297 - after that many face lifts and skin treatments, I’d be amazed if his face wasn’t packed with scar tissue.
304 - Martin. I have a 5 bedroom house and use only 1 of them. If you need a bolt hole you can even have your own bathroom.
302 - his first effort….
Land of hope and faded glories:
Give us back those wicked tories
Tim - “Thats the smartest post of yours I’ve read, and is the root of why I think Labour will replace Brown before the election.”
But what is your new hero Johnson going to do different.
The only thing he’s ‘achieved’ as a minister is to completely surrender on public sector pensions.
Not exactly the man to make tough decisions on cutting government spending is he?
re 275 Mike most of us know Mr Brown is a bare-faced liar. Perhaps when he’s lining up in Job Centre Plus next June it’ll suddenly dawn on Nick P as well.
303 - At a Rowing Event? “you’ll have someones eye out with that” doesn’t resonate with all the lycra and tiny cox.
308 - Yes, I remain perplexed as to what it is in his record that makes him such a qualified, experienced and appropriate candidate for the job.
Being ‘working class’ is no qualification for anything, any more (or less) than being an Old Etonian.
305
Andrew Motion, one couldnt think up a name like that!
312 - Ophelia Gently, Miss Huddersfield (spoken with a Yorkshire accent dropping the ‘H’), Miss Oldham - there are many more….
LABOUR
1.John Austin 2.John Battle 3.Colin Burgon 4.Richard Caborn
5.Colin Challen 6.Ben Chapman 7.David Chaytor 8.Michael Clapham
9.Frank Cook 10.Jim Cousins 11.Ann Cryer 12.John Cummings
13.Quentin Davies 14.Janet Dean 15.Bill Etherington
16.Neil Gerrard 17.Ian Gibson 18.John Grogan 19.Patricia Hewitt 20.Keith Hill 21.Beverley Hughes 22.John Hutton 23.Brian Iddon 24.Adam Ingram 25.Lynne Jones 26.Martyn Jones 27.Ruth Kelly
28.Fraser Kemp 29.David Lepper 30.Chris McCafferty
31.Ian McCartney 32.Rosemary McKenna 33.Bob Marshall-Andrews
34.Eric Martlew 35.Alan Milburn 36.Margaret Moran
37.Elliot Morley 38.Kali Mountford 39.Chris Mullin
40.Doug Naysmith 41.Bill Olner 42.Greg Pope 43.Bridget Prentice 44.John Prescott 45.Ken Purchase 46.John Reid 47.Martin Salter 48.Mohammad Sarwar 49.Alan Simpson 50.John Smith
51.Helen Southworth 52.Ian Stewart 53.Gavin Strang
54.David Taylor 55.Mark Todd 56.Des Turner 57.Kitty Ussher
58.Rudi Vis 59.Alan Williams 60.Betty Williams 61.Tony Wright 62.Jim Devine barred from standing for labour
TORY
1.Peter Atkinson 2.Tim Boswell 3.Angela Browning 4.John Butterfill
5.David Curry 6.Chris Fraser 7.Paul Goodman 8.John Greenway
9.Douglas Hogg 10.Michael Howard 11.Michael Jack
12.Julie Kirkbride 13.Andrew MacKay 14.David Maclean
15.Humfrey Malins 16.Michael Mates 17.Malcolm Moss
18.Andrew Pelling 19.Michael Spicer 20.Anthony Steen 21.Ian Taylor
22.Peter Viggers 23.Ann Widdecombe 24.Nicholas Winterton
25.Ann Winterton
LIB DEM
1.Colin Breed 2.Paul Keetch 3.Mark Oaten 4.Matthew Taylor
5.Phil Willis
Other parties
1.Derek Conway (Ind conservative)
2.Ian Paisley (DUP)
3.Alex Salmond MSP (SNP)
4.Clare Short (Ind)
5.Michael Martin (useless speaker party)
also Peter Robinson considering resigning.
So 97 MPs going voluntarily…watershed election here we come
The Sunday Times has an article titled “Go On Gordon Brown, Tell Us the Truth”. The vultures are circling.
A sample comment:
The public sector is bloated and inefficient. Voters will not only recognise that cuts are on the way but many will welcome them. They are seeing cuts in the private sector and expect the state to trim its spending, too.
The chancellor should force other ministers to abandon the nonsense of “investment versus cuts” and have the courage to engage in honest debate. If Labour believes it can manage public services better through an era of fiscal austerity, it should make that case. Its current position is dishonest and untenable.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article6591247.ece
314
I think OGH posted it earlier, it seems the media wont take any more bullsh*t
311 - You don’t need my opinion.
Its what the Tory leadership think.
This from three years ago.
While the most touted alternative to Brown is John Reid, the biggest worry for the Cameron Conservatives has to be Alan Johnson. Like John Major before him, he is affable, easy-going, classless — and, apparently, without enemies. It is not hard to imagine a contest in which Gordon Brown and John Reid tear great lumps out of each other, only for Alan Johnson to make a late dash through the middle, emerging unscathed as the winner. Nobody is saying that Cameron cannot beat Johnson — at the moment the Conservative leader looks ready to take on allcomers. But there is no doubt that the defeat of Brown in the Labour leadership contest would remove at a stroke David Cameron’s best not-so-secret weapon.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/the-week/22524/part_4/alan-johnson-is-the-labour-leader-that-camerons-conservatives-fear.thtml
This from last month
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2009/06/tories-prepare-for-alan-johnson.html
Personally,
I’d add that if Cameron is not going to remove any of his shadow Cabinet over the expenses claims, he may just have made a big mistake were Johnson to take over.
LABOUR
John Austin John Battle Colin Burgon Richard Caborn Colin Challen Ben Chapman David Chaytor Michael Clapham Frank Cook Jim Cousins Ann Cryer John Cummings Quentin Davies Janet Dean Bill Etherington
Neil Gerrard Ian Gibson John Grogan Patricia Hewitt Keith Hill Beverley Hughes John Hutton Brian Iddon Adam Ingram Lynne Jones Martyn Jones Ruth Kelly Fraser Kemp David Lepper Chris McCafferty
Ian McCartney Rosemary McKenna Bob Marshall-Andrews Eric Martlew Alan Milburn Margaret Moran Elliot Morley Kali Mountford
Chris Mullin Doug Naysmith Bill Olner Greg Pope Bridget Prentice John Prescott Ken Purchase John Reid Martin Salter Mohammad Sarwar Alan Simpson John Smith Helen Southworth Ian Stewart Gavin Strang
David Taylor Mark Todd Des Turner Kitty Ussher Rudi Vis
Alan Williams Betty Williams Tony Wright Jim Devine barred from standing for labour
TORY
1.Peter Atkinson 2.Tim Boswell 3.Angela Browning 4.John Butterfill
5.David Curry 6.Chris Fraser 7.Paul Goodman 8.John Greenway
9.Douglas Hogg 10.Michael Howard 11.Michael Jack
12.Julie Kirkbride 13.Andrew MacKay 14.David Maclean
15.Humfrey Malins 16.Michael Mates 17.Malcolm Moss
18.Andrew Pelling 19.Michael Spicer 20.Anthony Steen 21.Ian Taylor
22.Peter Viggers 23.Ann Widdecombe 24.Nicholas Winterton
25.Ann Winterton
LIB DEM
1.Colin Breed 2.Paul Keetch 3.Mark Oaten 4.Matthew Taylor
5.Phil Willis
Other parties
1.Derek Conway (Ind conservative)
2.Ian Paisley (DUP)
3.Alex Salmond MSP (SNP)
4.Clare Short (Ind)
5.Michael Martin (useless speaker party)
also Peter Robinson considering resigning.
So 97 MPs going voluntarily…watershed election here we come
I think i’ll phone george on talksoprt and ask him about this.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/5663446/MPs-second-jobs-revealed.html
George Galloway
Respect, Bethnal Green and Bow
Receives £500 a week for a weekly column in the Daily Record, which he says he writes on Sunday mornings; £1,800 for two weekly radio shows on TalkSport; and £2,500 for two weekly programmes on Press TV, an English-language news channel funded by the Iranian government. Over a year this works out at £249,600.
Truth in advertising?
Looking at the PB home page, Mike Smithson wrote the following about the current PB thread:
“Given the new purge on MPs having second jobs you wonder what they are going to do with their time.
Surely this has got to change.”
Right underneath this is an ad from amazon.co.uk for “thriller 25 - the world’s biggest selling album of all time”.
So -what are they going to do with their time? Listen to Michael Jackson and practice the Moonwalk
Yes I know it’s an unfortunate coincidence….
From the Times article:
“We don’t care if the commentators or the economists turn against us,” said one minister. “This is all about shoring up the base in the northern heart-lands, which we lost in the European elections. We don’t want or need them to understand the nuance of the argument. We just want them to hate the Tories again.”
If Labour are thinking like this then they’re already accepting defeat at the next election and are trying to avoid falling below 200 MPs.
This plan wont work though as their ‘northern heart-lands’ are filled with industrial constituencies where businesses en mass have been making massive cutbacks for the last year. Claiming that there will be public sector cuts will lead to shoulders being shrugged and comments of ‘about time too’.
Expect to see on the next election night an astomished Dimblebay etc asking ‘when was the last time there was a Conservative MP from the borough of Barnsley/Rotherham/Doncaster/Wakefield/Grimsby/Rochdale/Sunderland/Salford’
As ChristinaD said honesty might have saved Labour, lying will only make things worse for them.
Of the 97 who will be missed most Michael Howard, Clare Short, Alex Salmond, Ian Paisley, Anne Widdecombe, John Reid, Bob Marshall-Andrews, Chris Mullin….Quentin Davies
Quite a bit of talent amongst the non-entities
Have been reading some of the stuff on Michael Jackson, particularly as regards his spending habits and his debts. He and Gordon seem to operate the same way, always believing they can find the cash for their splurges even if it means mortgaging everything, future earnings, assets. In both cases someone is going to have to manage the estate into recovery - it can be done but means some austerity and some hard choices.
Yesterday Gordon pledged UK would contribute to a $100m per annum fund, today he’s promising extra teachers & one to one tuition, racking up costs to NHS Trusts (actually re-announcements IIRC - weren’t they in his Conference speech). Can’t tell us how its going to be funded. I expect that the army of loft laggers will make its re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-appearance soon, along with free broadband and PCs for the poor. Two years after the announcement that he would drive house building up to build 3 million new homes in 10 years I fully expect that to be re-announced (where are the eco towns by the way?).
He has one speech, we heard it in 2007, 2008 and we will again in 2009, it doesn’t recognise that things have changed because I don’t think Brown has yet accepted that the 7 years of plenty are over.
316.
The way Johnson is being bigged up is remeniscnet of how Brown was before he became leader and how Milipede was a year ago.
‘The Conservatives will be in a panic once our new leader Brown/Miliband/Johnson takes over, he’s got plenty of strength/freshness/ordinaryness about him’.
In reality all three are the same - gutless mediocrities promoted far above their ability level.
“Many of the wrong headed arguments about Afghanistan/Pakistan that you have been arguing against were used then.”
The Korean war was hardly an advertisement for liberal interventionism, tim.
323. Ted
“I don’t think Brown has yet accepted that the 7 years of plenty are over.”
The 7 years of plenty never existed. We had instead the 7 years of self delusion of plenty.
Remember Joseph had Pharoh store the surpluses during the 7 years of plenty. This country didn’t have surpluses, we had massive deficits and debts even before the crisis struck.
Looks like something else has been delayed..
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article6590966.ece
“Rebel Purnell uses Blairite think-tank to attack Brown”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196039/Rebel-Purnell-uses-Blairite-think-tank-attack-Brown.html
@244: if Murray wins Wimbledon, he’s 5pts behind Nadal, but will automatically take world number 1 next month when his penalty points from Indianapolis drop off (can’t count the 250 from winning Queens till then).
Problem after that is Murray is defending huge numbers of points from his wins in the 2nd half of last year, and will very likely lose the number 1 spot back to Federer in August.
From the link
“Cabinet sources have confirmed the report in last week’s Mail on Sunday that Mr Brown may resign in the New Year – and possibly as early as the autumn – to avoid a humiliating defeat.”
Meanwhile on the emplyment front .. no green shoots here:-
“According to the Office for National Statistics, unemployment rose to 2.26m in the three months to April, the highest since November 1996, and is fast heading for 3m. Some economists believe it could hit 4m by 2012.”
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article6590921.ece
325 - could you expand on that?
Redwood’s wrong. The job of an MP first and foremost is to represent his or her constituents.
He’s just another one who puts party before people.
Of course, there’s a possibility that in order to represent constituents the House should sit more often, but more often that not if you start from the wrong place you end up in the wrong place.
One thing I notice from the Tories who post on here is a deafening silence on the stories that Cameron does not plan to clear out anyone from the Shadow Cabinet, nor it seems does the scrutiny panel.
I presume that is because all the Conservatives here are embarrassed?
330
No surprise there. Bottler Brown has never faced any election where there was any risk of him losing.
314 - from the link
“The prime minister was dishonest”
Doesnt get a lot harsher than that
334 - is Brown going to clear out his stable, Tim? What about Brown’s own flipping, Ikea kitchen etc. What about Darling, Balls / Cooper et al etc etc.?
There’s plenty of mud to spread around, both Tory and labour….
don’t focus on one at the expense of the other. That destroys your argument and makes you look biased.
Should there be a 5 year ban from former ministers (from leaving Parliament not office)on taking up jobs linked to their former Department?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/5663914/Former-homes-minister-makes-thousands-from-housing-bodies.html
- the former Defence Ministers jobs will be interesting reading this week.
338 from = on
336 - it’s not harsh. Just honest and speaking truth to power.
337 - Ther is plenty of mud you are right.
But I think everyone will be surprised if Cameron does nothing, given his moralising.
By delaying the comprehensive spending review Darling is like someone who finds themselves mired in debt who then resorts to shoving unopened bills into a drawer hoping they will just go away.. the only problem is those are our bills he is hiding. The sooner debts are faced up to and acted upon the better, but no .. I really think hes wait until the bailiff is banging on the door. Please call an election now, for all our sakes.
230 - agreed - Just very blunt and direct
340 even
uh oh - trouble in Paradise…
In the Independent, Jane Merrick has an article entitled “IPPR Turns its back on Labour”.
It begins:
“The shorthand for the Institute for Public Policy Research used to be “New Labour’s favourite think tank”. No more.
As Gordon Brown prepares to launch a wide-ranging policy document entitled Building Britain’s Future, the IPPR appears to be Dismantling Labour’s Past.
On Monday, marking its 21st birthday, the IPPR - alma mater of David Miliband and Patricia Hewitt - will turn its back on the party by dramatically declaring that the New Labour project is “dead”.
Co-director Lisa Harker has told The Independent on Sunday that the government under Gordon Brown is no longer offering the fresh and progressive ideas that won the party three elections.”
341 - oh dear, is that the best you can do?
Good job Gordo isn’t big on moralising or your line of attack would look really stupid.
oh…….
This is very bizarre.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1195995/.htm
Tim
You havent mentioned Nadine for at least 12 hrs, you must be slipping…
347 - the link you posted isn’t working for me.
348 - which Tim - me or the smearer?
I expect it’s this one http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1195995/.html
348 - so many smears, so little time.
Poor timmy….. its all for nothing his beloved Labour are going to be given a “hell of a beating” (as our Norwegian friends say) no matter how hard he tries here and elsewhere to drip his poison.
347 – Nor me, I think the Mail have pulled the article.
Any clues as to what was odd?
346/8 - I didn’t expect anything bwtter of Brown.
You two thought Cameron would clear out the troughers.
the new broom.
A fresh start.
And he’ll be asking the British people to elect the most corrupt cabinet in history.
351 - more money p*ssed up the wall then
348 - ahh, tim your attributing words to me I didn’t utter. Now theres a surprise.
341 - see, you still mention Cameron but not Brown. If they are both less than perfect in your opinion you should mention them both equally.
You remind me of a story of Nixon and Kruschev playing golf in the late 1950s. Pravda reported that Kruschev came in second, whereas Nixon came in next to last. The moral of the story is - You can report the truth and still be biased and dissembling.
Just be honest and unbiased, otherwise people will discount everything you say - even if it’s actually worthwhile.
351 It intrigues me to know what happens if “Mr Patel” is offered an interview and “Mr Smith” isn’t? Surely this is racism - equal opportunity and all that!
354 - see my link,( has an ‘l’ at the end )
354 - most corrupt cabinet?
You are Gordon Brown and I claim my fiver. The cabinet of your beloved Labour and Labour peers while we are at it are more than a little corrupt
You realy are a tool arent you
an interesting article in the Telegraph…
imagine my surprise…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/5664629/Instead-of-reforming-the-City-bitter-Gordon-Brown-is-settling-scores.html#comments
“John Rentoul: The public is ahead of Brown on cuts
Labour and Conservatives talk airily about ‘difficult choices’ and ‘fiscal responsibility’, but Nick Clegg has a list”
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/john-rentoul/john-rentoul-the-public-is-ahead-of-brown-on-cuts-1722250.html
360 - Surely it wouldn’t be too hard to say.
“OK we hoped Cameron would get rid of the expenses cheats in the Shadow Cabinet, but in reality it would leave us unable to form a government”
361 Has no-one got a humane killer that they could use on this Government? It is painful to see it thrashing around in its death throes like this…
364 - Into a European place in the FTSE/Numpty league by 5pm Tuesday.
Whilst Tim goes into First Place in the “I’m a Shameless Shill for Labour” League - tonight!!
366 - What was your preiction for May, and you said I should come back and “beat you black and blue” if the FTSE wasn’t below 4000 by the end of June.
Just obeying orders.
321. ‘If Labour are thinking like this then they’re already accepting defeat at the next election and are trying to avoid falling below 200 MPs.’
yes yes yes….1931 here we come…
“Power to the people! Great idea, Mr Brown, but how?”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/28/gordon-brown-building-britains-future
“Balls admits contact with ex-spin doctor
Ed Balls has become the first senior Labour politician to admit being in touch with Damian McBride, the disgraced spin doctor, following his resignation over attempts to smear senior Tories.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/28/balls-contact-ex-spin-doctor
370. haha so it’s confirmed then.
362 - Thats the best piece on the implications of spending policy I’ve read.
370 - I thought Mr CBeebies at the time of Smear-gate basically denied he ever had much to do with McPoision and hardly ever had contact with him when he worked in government! He referred to him repeatedly as Mr McBride if I recall.
Around 8:30 this morning, I posted, “tim: Smear early, smear often.”
SIXTEEN HOURS LATER and he’s still smearing.
tim GET A LIFE YOU SAD PATHETIC W*NKER!!!
374 - Sitting up watching Glastonbury, nicely relaxed.
Springsteen is 60. Bloody hell.
Would you like to expand your point about the Korean War.
A little odd I thought.
Fraud investigation into Goernment jobs scheme.. oops.. same company that bankrolls Blunkett. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/28/fraud-inquiry-government-jobs-scheme
Fraud investigation into Government jobs scheme.. oops.. same company that bankrolls Blunkett. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/28/fraud-inquiry-government-jobs-scheme
I’m not sure what happened there.. the screen froze. Apologies for double post.
374 - I feel sorry for his kid, if she really exists!
Please Daddy, can we go outside and play, its a lovely day, please…NO, I have another 10hrs of smearing ahead, I still haven’t smeared Dorries, Cameron and Osborne yet today and I have to do my hourly turns about the SS, Eton, Bullingdon, MMR, 2nd jobs….But Daddy it is the weekend…Look I told you, this is for the greater good, the COMMON PURPOSE, Gordo has told me personally I am doing a great job, I am really getting to those Tory Toffs, it is only a matter of time before the poll ratings turn around, when they all see how evil Druggie Dave is…
Or maybe the child it is just yet another figment of his warped imagination, where in the morning he is a farmer, who knows more about Tupac than tractors, and by the afternoon he is the owner of a successful private school.
Yeh, doesn’t Tim claim to have a young daughter, sometime more than one? Sat on his arse watching TV all day instead of helping his partner with the weekly shop, doing ‘quality time’ with the kids says a lot about his priorities in life.
379 - Tremendous.
Loved your review of the Speaker coverage on the BBC by the way.
376 - 2nd jobs, oh woophs. Hasn’t Blunkett also got his fingers in the ID Cards pie, like Reid?
While the Telegraph are jumping up and down about Hague and getting £200k last year for after dinner speaking and advice on writing books, zzzzzz. What struck me was only £200k, few years ago he used to crack the £1 million mark, credit crunch and the banks going busto must have really hit his bottom line!
381 - zzzzzzzzzzz!
Remind who were your tip for speaker, Alan Beith, oh yes, the guy who got nowhere! Glad I don’t listen to you for betting advice!
380 - I’ve sent them off to boarding school to develop speech impediments and guarantee Shadow Cabinet positions in the 2029 Shadow Cabinet reshuffle.
384 - Tim you are an embarrassment, but mainly to yourself fortunately. For someone who claims to be a farmer, a public school teacher and in the top 2% of the riches people on the planet, you are incapable of convincing anyone that your party is worth voting for.
It’s a sad indictment of your party’s failure that in order to defend them, you must smear and lie.
And few believe you are more than a sad fantasist. Get a life.
383 - Three Speaker bets.
1.Beith 16/1
2Bercow 8/1
3.Any Tory 9/4.
Net profit at even stakes, well you work it out.
385 - My god Simon.
Aren’t you in the richest 2% of the planets population?
386 - Betting all your dole money on one event, very dodgy BR management, no wonder you live in a bedsit!
362 - of course he has a list. He’s Nick Clegg, and he’s a Lib Dem; he can promise free lollies and candy for all the children of the New Forest. It doesn’t count for anything because he’ll never be in a position to make his list a reality.
388 - Goodnight.
I hear Camerons discipline within the party is to skip a generation.
All the troughers in the Shadow Cabinet will survive, but their children shall shed their top hats and wear orange jump suits when they visit town.
Telegraph have the list of 2nd jobs, haven’t got through whole list, but not seen anything particular crazy. On first glances they seem to get very excited over nothing particular e.g. They make a big thing of Bill Cash earning £190 / hr for doing legal work. Isn’t that what legal advice costs minimum these days?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/5663446/MPs-second-jobs-revealed.html
391 - Something to chuckle on,
Michael Gove gets £60k a year for his Times column, Lembit Opik gets £5k a year for his one in the Daily Sport! Never mind Lembit!
391 - for a specialised business law solicitor of 30 years experience, working out of London - which Cash is - £190 an hour is perhaps even a shade on the cheap side.
Bloody hell, gorgeous George doesn’t half do well, £250k a year from Talk Sport radio show and Iranian funded TV show!
I lie - he doesn’t work out of London. But still, that fee is totally in line with what I’d expect for that sort of work.
394 - I think I will become a raving loony loud mouthed lefty for £250k a year!
Blunkett, Milburn and Hewitt are actually the biggest earns of the lot.
396 - you have to pretend you’re a cat and behave like a total arse 24/7. It’s not worth it.
Eric Illsley MP, Labour, Barnsley Central.
Receives £5,500 a year from the Caravan Club. Attends Saturday meetings, and sponsoring a reception at the Houses of Parliament.
In other words, ‘he is paid £5.5K for renting out the HofP for receptions’ oh dear.
The Telegraph try and break everybody money down into hourly rate, which is just pathetic. Quite a few peoples “jobs” are actually their own firms, or ones they have investments in, so it is like saying well how much per hour did you make out of your shares last year.
400 (correction) so it is like saying well how much per hour did you make out of your shares last year.
->
so it is like saying well how much per hour did you make out managing your shares last year.
Gove only gets £675 for each appearance on Newsnight, what cheap skates! Most people in the media wouldn’t get out of bed for that kind of money, let alone spend the week reading some s##t book, listening to an headache inducing album of world music, seeing a 2-3 dodgy plays and watching another 2-3 iffy films!
Mmmmm some of those ‘fees paid into company from which they receive a dividend’ ones look like they should be caught by IR35 .. which means it should all be treated as PAYE .. ( ask Red Dawn about that one! ). I weonder if that is being paid. Barristers and Judges are exempt - funny that as One Cherie Blair would have been caught by it otherwise.
402 (cont) Gove does get a raw deal, Blunkett out does him on the newspaper column stakes as well,
Blunkett gets £60k a year, including a 12-column Sun contract worth up to £50,000!
12-columns for £50k, nice little earner. These lefties don’t have know how to rake it in. Wonder when Blunkett was leading the socialist republic of Sheffield if he ever thought some London numpties would pay him £50k a year for writing 12 pages of drivel?
403 - Given that we know MP’s have been very busy getting accountancy advice, often on us the taxpayer, regarding flipping their houses and how to avoid CGT on sales (while staying within the rules), I would be surprised if they haven’t asked them also about these extra incomes as well.
People like Hewitt, Milburn & Hague don’t give an indication of time spent in that Telegraph article, so they may be hiding that they work a fair amount of time.
It is time spent that is issue, not money. I doubt anyone would worry about an hour or two to write articles as per Gove or ten hours a year as per Thurso but if someone was working, say, the euivalent of a day a week then they are neglecting their duty as an MP.
406 - The way the Telegraph article is written, they seem to try and sensationalise the hourly rate more than the time spent.
Personally, I totally agree, I have no problems with MP’s having outside interests, as long as they don’t led to conflicts of interest with one important caveat. They shouldn’t be missing select committees, important debates and votes, etc, thus a 3-4 hours a week for £50k a year I don’t give a monkeys to be perfectly honest.
“A VIP visits No 10… Very Important Pooch that is”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196025/A-VIP-visits-No-10–Very-Important-Pooch-is.html
406 - I think more than just the hours spent, it is when they are having to attend and how much can of the work they are able to do in their own time for instance weekends.
If it is say max 5hrs a week in their own time for each role (and they have say 2-3 positions), with 1 board meeting that is one morning a month, I would hope they could fit both MP’s job and these extra ones in.
If however it is 8 hours a week for a bank (which I notice by the sounds of it Oliver Letwin does), but it must be in their offices, say 2 afternoons a week, that is when it gets less acceptable for me. You are committed to each and every week being out of the HoC for say 2 afternoons.
Truth vs Lies dividing line again,
The chancellor has abandoned plans for a comprehensive spending review, which should have been held this year, until after the general election.
This will be seen as a further example of government dishonesty.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6591262.ece
This constant media narrative of government lying and dishonest seems to be really snowballing now.
Britannia shrivels under Gordon Brown According to the Times One who knows the Washington foreign policy establishment at a very high level recently came back dumb-founded: “They are sniggering at us.” Another foreign elder statesman and old friend of Britain believes the country has gone to the dogs.
Good to see we are held inn such high esteem around the world and all because of Mr Brown and his dithering.
Is it true that Andrew Marr is married to Jackie Ashley?
Is it true that while married to Ashley, he had an illegitimate child with Alice Miles?