Is this getting a little personal?
July 3rd, 2009
Will voters simply choose the nice guys?
In the last fortnight, there have been a number of occasions when David Cameron has attacked Gordon Brown’s honesty - over debt levels, claims about capital spending, and over growth targets. The language used has been a little more stark than the usual false pleasantries cast across the Dispatch Boxes, and it has been chased up by some corners of the Fourth and Fifth Estates respectively.
I can understand the thinking - if this becomes about the trustworthiness of the PM, then the Tories might well gain: Brown might be largely a truthful man, but there have been a couple of notable occasions when the lie was so brazen as to be embarrassing: denying that the October 2007 election was cancelled because of the polls, and denying that he had planned to move Darling away from the Treasury are the two examples that come to mind. So how to counter this tactic?
A feature of the last week or so has been a focus by senior Labour politicians on the nature of their partisan competition. Last night, I watched Channel 4 editor Gary Gibbon (who has a great new blog) interview Gordon Brown on a train from Leeds. The PM suggested that the standard of political discourse had fallen below the standards that voters should expect. From the C4 news report:
“There is a crudity developed in the language that people use in politics that people are now accepting as almost everyday language. People have got to think twice before they make accusations.”
“I do not make personal attacks on people. I have tried to avoid doing that during my political career. But equally I understand that the language of politics can sometimes descend into people making quite crude accusations.”
He insisted that he was not complaining about personal attacks on himself, but said the language was “out of line with the real issues that have got to be debated”.
Many other PB.com readers will have been reminded of Ed Balls’ complaint this week that David Cameron was employing “agression” and “bullying language” in his tactics at PMQs. Then, in the same week that David Cameron had apologised for the previous Conservative Government passing Section 28, an article on the BBC website was highlighted in our comments, where Labour Ministers Ben Bradshaw and Chris Bryant suggested that homophobia was still prevalent on the Conservative backbenches.
Labour seem to have decided that the best way to innoculate their leader from character assassination is to characterise all personal attacks as lacking in virtue: borne of nastiness. In doing so, they hope to have greater resolve, and to cause the Conservatives onto the murkier, less emotive ground of policy.
The next election was always going to wind up being about whether Labour could convince voters that little in the Tory party has changed. The ‘Toff’ campaign failed horribly in Crewe & Nantwich - now Norwich North on the 23rd July can be the test-phase for “nasty bullying Tories”. It might not resonate that strongly with voters, but if it serves to put doubt in the minds of Conservative attack dogs as to how they’re being seen, it could ease the fire on the Labour leadership as it looks to survive the Summer and Conference Season.
Morus
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I do hope so!
For Brown, Balls, et all to throw around accusations of bullying, aggression or lowering the political tone is akin to an arsonist being put out because someone fires up the bar-b in the garden next door.
They have been the leading proponents of the smear and lies for fifteen years and more.
Two things have to be noted.
Firstly, everyone who is capable of thought now knows this to be the case. Only morons, those who never read or watch political news and the tribally motived Tory haters (come to think of it, they come under the heading of morons too) don’t realise that Brown and Labour have been outed as the true nasty party.
Secondly and more importantly, nothing changes the fact that this government is incompetent in general and financially inept in particular. Even if, for some reason, the “nasty Tory” theme gains traction, the uselessness of the government cannot be hidden and voters would rather have nasty and competent than one more day of the current rabble and the buffoon currently masquerading as PM.
Labour have failed - massively. We’re broke, kids can’t read, crime is the 2nd worst in the EU, illegal wars, etc, etc. There can be no campaign for them based upon honesty. All that is left is mudslinging, lies, dividing lines and personal abuse. If things go that way, as they surely will, most mud will stick to Labour.
The bottom line is that they have done to the country what they have done to the country - and now they’re going to get slaughtered by way of retribution. They’ll not go with dignity but in a hissy fit.
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/07/brown-backs-andy-murray-official.html
Damn. And I was looking forward to watching him in the final…
Everything’s political - if it’s personal it’s because it’s political
The biggest and also the worst Brown lie was saying that getting rid of the 10% rate of income tax would leave nobody worse off. This was brutally exposed as a lie by his own side as the losers were the poorest in society.
Those voters have not forgotten regardless if Labour now tries to portray Brown as the little boy being bullied by the big posh boys from the private school down the road. What happened to the “clunking fist”???
Perhaps Brown could show what a big brave boy he is by visiting the Norwich campaign!
Brown has been lying all his life,about everything.He even has a type of lying named after him…”Brownies”. do keep up.
Getting Personal
Step down now, Mister Brown, rowdy clown;
Nasty, vastly ghastly, dastardly bastard,
Rancid, nankerous, skankerous tax-bandit;
Frumpy, ugly, gallumphing, grumpy
Shabby, baggy, mad sad baddie:
Gordon, mournful dawdling moron!
David Cameron, sham chameleon,
Showman, sacking, strictly spinning,
Gladly green and gay and gleeful
Outing lies and lists and lawmen
Surging urgently, merging murkily
Questions, quizzes, quacking quietly
Nick Clegg, Plaid and S.N.P.,
Kidderminster, Blaenau, Gorgeous George;
Reverend Doctor Ian Paisley,
Rebels, freaks, expelled mad members,
Wacky, weird, bewildered, sleazy:
This is why we need S. T.V.!
The electorate have watched Labour’s lies, bullying and underhand, dishonest behaviour for years. Its blatant, its obvious and its unsubtle. This week’s slanderous attacks on the Tories can be put on the same pile as the lies they told to justify the war in Iraq. They are utterly desperate and they’ve abandonned all attempts at finesse. They know they can’t win an election on their record or their policies or their management of the economy so they’ve decided to insult our intelligence by more leaden attempts to manipulate opinion. They are pathetic. Can they stoop any lower?
Great article Morus - the interview with Garry Gibbon is on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHsIxMDGP60
Brown is just a big dissembler.
Gordon Brown’s a big brave boy standing up to mean old Dave.
“Why are you crying, Gordon?”
“A big boy did it, mummy!”
11 Mr C - your views on Nasty Tory homophobia have been much missed…
@12:
Oh, we wouldn’t allow homosexuals in the Conservative Party.
I’ve been off on a tour of the colonies. I shall be staying for a few days in New Amsterdam, before grabbing a steamer back to Blighty.
Dashed friendly folk over here, what.
13 “a steamer”? A had you down as the cruiser type…
14 Sorry, oddly lapsed into Parker-speak there
“A had you…M’Lady…”
tim, roger, john L, wage slave, all you lefties. Read this about your heroes:
http://www.economist.com/books/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13940919
…and then STFU. Thanks.
16 “Communism’s first big advantage was that it played on two human appetites—the noble desire for justice and the baser hunger for vengeance. Mr Brown, emeritus professor of politics at Oxford University…”
For a moment, I thought I’d fast-forwarded a couple of years…
This was interesting:
“Communist regimes proved remarkably durable, partly thanks to the use of privileges for the docile and intimidation of the independent-minded. Another source of strength was tight control of language and information that deemed most criticism unpatriotic. Cracks came as information spread, especially about the system’s bogus history and economic failings.”
Now replace “Communist regime” with “Gordon Brown’s regime”…
Is this getting a little personal? Yes.
Will voters simply choose the nice guys? If they do, they won’t think of Labour as the nice guys. When I saw the sub-heading, I thought that the article was going to try to make a prospectus for the Lib Dems benefiting on the “plague on all your houses” principle. Perhaps that might make a good subject for a separate article.
I’m sure that Labour is using this approach for the reason that you give, but since the public has correctly come to the conclusion that the Prime Minister is indeed lying, sympathy for him is likely to be lacking.
Brown is the most dishonest politician there is.
The closer he gets to a live TV camera the nicer he is. Whenever he is interviewed on camera he is nice as pie and comes over as all reasonable, surrounding himself with women or children at every opportunity. And then in private, all the reports suggest he is totally disagreeable, moody, spiteful and aggressive.
The Channel 4 interview linked above was illuminating. The best bit was when Gary Gibbon said something along the lines of “don’t you think you brought this on yourself, with your dividing lines, leading you to stretch reality a little bit”. Brown grinned and grinned and said “it’s unfortunate that you say that because that’s not what I intend to do”. Yeah ok!
19
In that interview I thought Brown’s body language was more telling than what he actaully said. he looked uncomfotable and shifty, and that smile at the wrong time…. In fact Bown should never smile, to me his smile always lacks sincerity as he doesn’t seem to be able to coordinate it with his words.
Brown is becoming a parody. Never made a personal attack my arse, countered in 2 word Damien McBride.
10 months everyone, 10 months.
What the heck is the Fifth Estate? If the internet, is this anything more than the Third and Fourth by other means?
20 Filmmakers employ casting directors to get the actor with the right look for the part. Bad guys usually look, shifty, uncomfortable, smiling at the wrong time, insincere, etc.
If you look at the really bad guys in the press like Abu ‘the hook’ Hamza they seem to fit the bill just perfectly.
No casting director could have chosen an appearance and a personal manner for the part of a lying, bullying, shifty bastard politician down on his luck better than that provided by Gordon Brown.
As we were saying the other day - looks matter. Gordon has the look. Just not the one he wants.
The attacks on Brown’s honesty are a response to his Goebbels-style big lies.
Labour won’t cut spending, Brown didn’t want to shift Darling and install Balls as Chancellor and, of course, the plan for an election in 2007 wasn’t ditched because the polls moved against Labour.
The guy is so brazen it’s an insult to the intelligence.
Very good read yet again Morus,thank you.
But why no picture of Nick Clegg?
IMHO he is politeness personified at PMQ’s and at the same time gaining in strength ,which hopefully will be translated in a higher opinion poll rating.
I now make way for the customary abuse which tends to follow any form of praise or support for the LibDems
25 You’re an idiot, man. Clegg? Pah!!
(Will that do?)
I too thought this was going to be about the LDs. The Bunker needs to do something to stem the attacks from Cameron. So we had the Osbourne complaint and this. Simple response for Cameron: continue to attack Gordon’s character but do it with devastating politeness and a hint of regret.
Very good article and very good question.
Yes, it is getting more personal than usual. However, that’s largely the Tories *responding* to events, not leading them. It would not be possible to credibly call Brown’s honesty - and that of the government in general - into question were there not a foundation on which to do it. There is. In the public mind, it goes back to Iraq (which was the worst example), and the whole New Labour spin machine from the mid-90s but the extent to which dishonesty is now seen as part of this government’s methods makes such a charge simple. It’s simple because it’s seen to be true.
As for Brown not calling others honesty into question, that’s probably technically true; he leaves the dirty work to his friends. Personal attacks on things like background and class (which are matters over which a person has far less control than their tendancy to lie or not), have been a key plank of Labour’s campaigns since Brown took over, playing the man not the ball.
Once again, one gets a nasty feeling that Brown exhibits a nasty hypocrisy; feeling that it’s OK for him to engage in such methods but that it should be out of bounds for others. Or is it that he’s just upset that it’s being done openly, and being accepted; that such things should be left in the dark.
Personal attacks will stop when there is nothing worth attacking. The Tory ‘Demon Eyes’ campaign was a failure because it was seen as an attack on Blair (it wasn’t as such but the fact that people didn’t get the message was another failure of the campaign) - and because the voters didn’t feel an attack of that nature was justified. Voters are generally a fair bunch and will distinguish between what’s fair game and what’s not.
Character is an issue worth debating. Honesty and integrity in our leaders matters. So is the ability to recognise mistakes and put them right when they occur. Brown is trying to limit the terms of debate to things that he wants to talk about, dismissing anything else as “out of line with the real issues”, rather like a dissident Communist might be labelled ‘deviant’. Debate cannot be artificially stifled like that and any attempt to do so will itself appear evasive, playing into the ‘dishonesty’ theme.
25 You’re probably quite right about Clegg. But he’s an irrelevance.
There’s only one realistic alternative government on offer. To get Labour out, properly out with no hung parliament, means Dave becoming PM with a majority.
For all their merits the LDs are going to be horribly squeezed at the GE because the nation wants this lying monster out.
27 “and a hint of regret”
Perhaps tied to Tony Blair: “Much as I had diferences with his predecessor, there was always the pretence of some factual basis underpinning Mr Blair’s positions. The Prime Minister just makes things up.”
Appeal to those floating voters who previously supported Blair, harking back to some Golden Age of Labour Lies.
Morus, as you mention Norwich North, it’s worth mentioning the Labour Tax bombshell that could be dropped in the constituency on July 15th. There’s nothing the Government can do about it apart from grit its teeth and blame Chipmunk Blears again.
Blears’ vanity project was to reorganise local government in Norfolk, Suffolk & Devon and she asked the Boundary Committee, part of the Electoral Commission, to give her ‘advice’ on how best it might be done.
To say that the so-called ‘experts’ at the Boundary Committee made a pig’s ear of it is an understatement and because they screwed it up so badly [ie didn't do what Blears wanted], last February she gave them more time to come to the right answer. errrr, until July 15th to be precise. In case you’d forgotten, the by-election is on 23rd.
Everybody expects that the ‘right answer’ will be to expand Norwich City Council’s boundaries to absorb most of neighbouring Conservative-controlled Broadland Council, which consistently wins national awards for the quality of its services.
Now that creates a problem for Labour because the ‘Norwich North’ seat is actually ‘Broadland South’. 60% of Norwich North’s electorate lays within the leafy Conservative suburbs of Broadland Council’s area.
And everybody in Broadland knows that the district’s part of the Council Tax in the incompetent City Council area is twice that of business-like and efficient Broadland.
The prospect of being absorbed into the City AND paying twice as much Council Tax is not one that is very popular locally. But it’s going to be thrust upon them in 2 weeks time when on 15th July, Labour will receive the Boundary Committee’s report.
Local people will see that Council Tax will double as a result and the hapless new Communities Secretary John Denham [who botched a damage limitation exercise earlier in the week] can do nothing about it because Blears passed the law that says he cannot say a word about it for 6 weeks. It’s terminal for Labour in Norwich North.
Thank you Hazel Blears! The Chipmunk roars again.
31 Excellent insight, bunnco.
Clegg came in for much disparagement this week for his PMQ appearance - but then, he always does on PBC.
But perhaps he was right after all. He started off, you remember, crtiticising the nasty attacks being made by both Labour and Conservative leaders. This may well match the mood of the country better than the PBC Tory pack realise.
Conservative posters on PBC this morning are very quick to blame it all on Brown. But is not Cameron’s personal nastiness exactly what we have been seeing from them over the last few months?
I wonder if Cameron himself comes on PBC to get in a bit of practice.
30…well at least Blair was a truly accomplished liar. Brown just sucks at it…
31 Wow. No doubt the Tory election leaflets will be all over that issue by this evening.
31, I had no idea about that. It makes an uphill struggle even more difficult for Labour. Hard to see them winning with that.
But it does raise a question: that being the case, why did they have the by-election at that specific date?
33 “I wonder if Cameron himself comes on PBC to get in a bit of practice.”
My money would be on “councilhousetory”. I mean - the very idea of such a thing! Has to be cover for someone important…
The big question that must be causing much soul-searching with the Lib Dems is why they have so comprehensively failed to benefit from the anti-politics mood prevalent. You would have thought these were ideal circumstances for the third party.
34 Lots of people were taken in by Blair’s lies. The Tories need to acknowledge that some people who voted Labour in the past might feel bad about that. “It’s OK”, Cameron should say. “We were suckered by Blair too. Over Iraq. There’s no shame in admitting that you bought his snake oil. BUT - you really would never live with yourself if you got taken in by Gordon Brown…”
33, so Clegg’s attacking both big parties is nicer than them attacking each other?
It may chime with some voters. But I think not many. Hardcore Labour types will be backing Brown (mostly), and those who are anti-Labour will go Tory.
Also, Clegg’s job isn’t to hold the Opposition to account at PMQs. It’s a pathetic attempt at equidistance which just guarantees he has 500 MPs muttering over his questions. One of Cable’s strengths in the role was that he regularly had the Tories on-side so he didn’t have to try and talk over the entire chamber.
33 Pat Ryan. That’s an interesting viewpoint. How exactly has Cameron been “personally nasty”?
The personal stuff suits both parties at the moment.
Labour can avoid talking about cuts and the Tories can cover up their half thought out policies.
Witness Education Spending chaos betweeen Lansley Gove and Osborne.
TNS-BMRB have published the detailed data from their STV Politics Now poll:
http://www.tns-custom.co.uk/_assets/files/July_2009_Voting_Intentions_poll.pdf
I think , in the end, we will find that Cammo is not very nice at all.
After the 10p tax debacle in Spring/Suimmer 2008 the press was full of stories of Cameron being a bully, about his style and even that Brown was so emotionally fragile in face of personal attacks that he might be driven to retire on ill health grounds. Ms Daley in the Telegraph for example in May 2008 said
” I warned Mr Cameron many months ago that because of the contrast between his social background and that of Gordon Brown, he had to be particularly wary of looking like a “public school prefect who can effortlessly reduce the gauche scholarship boy to tears”….
….Believe it or not, the media is capable of personal compassion, and what they see now is human frailty being put through an ordeal that is painful to watch.
There is a widespread sense that the Prime Minister however exasperating and politically bloody-minded he may be simply cannot withstand the kind of personal assault that a more robust character (such as his predecessor) could survive…”
This is a matter of personality as the election will be about trust, and Brown, Balls & co in their “Labour Investment v Tory Cuts” campaign are asking that the public believe their stated view that because of the “real help” they have given the economy will grow sufficiently to reduce need for public spending cuts. Cameron is saying “we will protect front line services but cut deeply elsewhere because otherwise there will be no long term prosperity, trust me on this”
Cries of personal attacks, bullying are because the Labour case doesn’t stand critical inspection.
It is an early part of every election campaign to impune the honesty of your opponents. It seems to be important to accuse your opponents of sinking into the gutter before they do the same to you. Then the Lib Dems jump in and accuse everyone else of being nasty. It is all part of the game. The Lib Dems are allowed to lie about their opponents but if their opponents object then they are spreading smears and untruths.
I don’t like some of the things Cameron says myself, they come over as rather small, almost as if he is stooping down to the level of his opponents. He is bright and he is fast, he would do well to stand above the rats biting at his ankles. As for Brown, he can’t open his mouth without bile coming out. Clegg isn’t fast enough or witty enough to do the usual Lib Dem thing he just comes over as Superwimp.
Clegg continues to make the mistake of dividing his limited media time (and resources) by attacking both parties. He may reduce the size of the Conservative GE win by a little but could also end up falling to 40 MPs. The South West, Scotland and parts of the South East look very weak for the LDs yet they are continuing to push central funds into those areas rather than to gaining Northern seats from Labour.
In Norwich North the LDs (was 16%) are fighting to keep 3rd place against the Greens who only got 2.7% in 2005. An amazing situation for the “party of by elections”.
ICM have now published the detailed data from their large BBC Scotland poll, marking 10 years of Scottish devolution:
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/pdfs/Scottish-Poll-june09.pdf
33
Pat Ryan
“I wonder if Cameron himself comes on PBC to get in a bit of practice.”
I knew Tim served some use: a Masterclass in how to smear your opponents… by a Labour supporter..
To accuse Cameron of ‘nastiness’ is a crock.
Dave Cameron has many faults but being nasty is not one of them. Angry yes. Disparaging yes. Annoyed even, yes.
How else is Cameron able to dig the truth from a lying and evasive PM? The Great Leader is leading this country to disaster, and to stay in power he will lie, cheat and do anything to that end.
Finally Cameron on PMQ’s on Wednesday got a sliver of truth out of his mouth.
As for Clegg, well he really ought to grow up, after all he is supposed to be a politician.
48 MAF. tim is a rotten smearer - more a mudslinger. He’s never scored more than 8% on the Porpoise index. The boy has alot to learn.
I have had a long standing bet that the Liberal Democrats will hold 75 - 80 seats after the next election.
I am still of that view, based on holding most of what they have and gaining 15 - 20 seats from Labour.
Guess the local result from Sutton is a boost to this prognosis.
Normally when there is a rant against a Liberal Democrat leader it is a sign of concern from opponents.
Norwich North expect sizeable Conservative win, sound candidate selection and climate right unless some highly unusual and unexpected event occurs in the next 2 weeks. Fear the Greens will in fact drop back, as happened at Mid Staffs, in 1988 was it, they started in the polls in third place with 11 - 12%, but were destroyed by the campaigns of the other parties. Lib Dems in that first poll were down at 3-4%, totally written off in the local media, but climbed up to receive about 12%, Greens had about 4%, and that was a followed by a national rise over the next 2 years into the 15 - 20 range.
Clegg playing the Trident card will I suspect probably pick off some Green support.
36
David Davis is a council estate lad.
Very concerning by-election for the Tories in Sutton&Cheam last night.
Vote pretty much collapsed from previously even though a positive campaign with 12 bits of literature and a large GOTV employed on the day.
Sutton amd Cheam and Carshalton and Wallington may be less marginal than the Tories thought.
No change at election on this result which would indicate south west london will stay orange.
2 “Firstly, everyone who is capable of thought now knows this to be the case. Only morons, those who never read or watch political news and the tribally motived Tory haters (come to think of it, they come under the heading of morons too) don’t realise that Brown and Labour have been outed as the true nasty party.
Secondly and more importantly, nothing changes the fact that this government is incompetent in general and financially inept in particular. Even if, for some reason, the “nasty Tory” theme gains traction, the uselessness of the government cannot be hidden and voters would rather have nasty and competent than one more day of the current rabble and the buffoon currently masquerading as PM.”
Talk about partisan rubbish! As all who know me will know, I hold little in the way of positive views around how Nu Lab has done politics. But it was after all Theresa May who spoke of the Tories as the Nasty Party - and they truly were! Talk of Moats, Duckponds etc reminded the public of what they have “missed” over the last 12 years!! Are you old enough to have been around when Thatcher was in her pomp, ld? Did you see the ‘fall”, and how the Tories all lined up behind ill-fated John Major - and then of course, how the “b…….s” attacked him for substantial periods of his premiership. I could go on, but this is rapidly becoming a rant….
I note that ISM have provided breakdowns by Religion (Protestant, Catholic, Other, None). I cannot recall seeing such a breakdown in a Scottish poll for quite a while.
It provides some interesting tidbits, eg:
- “Are you in favour or against the idea of holding a referendum next year on whether Scotland should become independent?”
Overall: Yes 58% No 37%
Religion breakdown:
Protestant: Yes 56% No 38%
Catholic: Yes 62% No 35%
- “Next year, the Scottish Government wants to hold a referendum to ask the people of Scotland whether they agree or disagree that…
“the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state”
Do you think you would vote for or against this proposal?”
Overall: For the proposal 42% Against the proposal 50%
Religion breakdown:
Protestant: For the proposal 35% Against the proposal 59%
Catholic: For the proposal 51% Against the proposal 44%
So, contrary to popular myth, Scottish catholics are actually more likely to be both pro-referendum and pro-independence than both the population as a whole, and protestants.
44 “Cries of personal attacks, bullying are because the Labour case doesn’t stand critical inspection.”
Ted, you’ve totally nailed it there.
52 Noted…
Does anyone think that the increasing personalisation (horrible American made up word) is down to the fact that we now have carreer politicians? This movemeans that there is no one with outside experience of the ‘real’ world and no one with expertise in any ‘real’ field. Therefore, rather than defending any policy from a position of strength, we have glorified PR jockeys spouting the briefing supplied to them by so called expert groups (either civil service or party hacks). The only way one of these PR jockeys can score points over the other is by personal attacks, not by an in-depth understanding of the matter in hand. As all that these carreer politicians know, and how they have become successful, is to destroy the opposition by clever debating skills and smears/spin, that is what they do. This is the only weapon in their personal armoury and the one they fall back on.
Until we can get away from selecting potential MP’s from within an incestuous group of SPAD’s, apararatchiks, hanger’s on, and political beauty queens, we will not change what is happening.
Rant over
Whoops! The better half has just caught me posting to PB. I’m nicked! Cheerio…
I would have more respect for Lib Dem posters who boast about good local election results if they were more willing to accept that bad local election results also signified something.
For what it’s worth, I don’t accept that either are as important as all that.
39 “Also, Clegg’s job isn’t to hold the Opposition to account at PMQs. It’s a pathetic attempt at equidistance which just guarantees he has 500 MPs muttering over his questions. One of Cable’s strengths in the role was that he regularly had the Tories on-side so he didn’t have to try and talk over the entire chamber.”
It hardly matters to the general public whether 500 MPs mutter - in fact, in the current anti-politics mood of the country, surely it could help him? The idea of an official opposition, and two sides to the commons stems from when most Westminster politics was just two sides. Whatever Tories may try to portray here and elsewhere, that is no longer the case.
48. Madasafish are you still there?
This is a typical Morus thread, so i wont discuss it.
More importantly, do you think that yesderdays eve of 4th July market is the start of the second wave that we, (and I can add the name of Nassim Nicholas Taleb of Black Swan fame to the list) have beeb predicting?
I think we just witnessed a sharp swing away from the SNP.
I’ve YouTubed most of Question Time from last night.
You’ve got to give Harman credit, she knows how to defend an indefensible position and remains cool under fire. She should have joined the Army.
The first and last videos are the best. Harman fighting with Laws is hysterical and Hitchens pulls her up on sending her own kids to grammar school.
QT July 2nd – Harman ‘fights’ with Laws.
If you go to the main page you can also find Brown on ‘Honesty’ from CH 4 News last night.
53 Sutton & Cheam - Tory vote “pretty much collapsed from previously”
Actual result:
“Gerry Jerome, Liberal Democrat: 1,665
Georg Dominik Braun, The Conservative Party Candidate: 1,329
Previously, the leading Tory was 36 votes ahead of the leading LibDem in a multi-member constituency. I don’t think even Mark senior would have the neck to call that a “collapse” in the Tory vote. Still very tight - but last night was not about deciding whether Gordon Brown or David Cameron runs the UK. Let’s see how that question changes the dynamics, eh?
60 I think quite a lot of people vote on the incumbency of any Council administration - if they are feeling ill-disposed about things generally, they are liable to blame those in power. Here in Devon for instance where we Lib Dems copped the hurricane on June 4th, people voted against the LD administration irrespective of all the Audit Commission evidence of being an Excellent Council etc. In other places, Lib Dems gained where they were not in power. There is a mood with the recession, Parl Expenses etc that things are not going well. Hit that mood right as an opposition and you can win. Which is why the Tories currently ride high in the national polls.
Blue Rog @ 58
Does anyone think that the increasing personalisation (horrible American made up word) is down to the fact that we now have carreer politicians?
In a word Yes
By definition, for us on this site, politics is extremely important. However, most of us make a living, making something, or selling something, a world away from Westminster. So whilst its important we all know that there is more to life than politics. I don’t think that most of the denizens of the Westminster Village do, even though they would claim otherwise.
So everything is inflated in importance to -life or death- status. After that, smearing opponents, cheating, lying, insulting is nothing compared to whats at stake.
57
And John Major famously spent some of his formative years in Brixton, whilst Shaun Bailey, PPC for Hammersmith, grew up in a council house in North Kensington.
68 I actually lived in a council house (my grandparents) for a while when my parents’ marriage broke down. Was only two at the time, so bit of a stretch to say I was ever a “Council house Tory” - I’m not sure my political views were entirely fully formed until I was at least three…
“Brown might be largely a truthful man”….truth is an absolute!
stuart, re protestant catholic comments, it makes perfect sense.
i can se this aspect becoming played more in future, as we all know the queen is more popular in one religion than the other. i actually think when the queen dies the protestant vote for independence will markedly increase, as it is really a personal although soft level of support from many as they grew up with her, rather than the position itself.
strangely, there are also many catholics who will also come on board at that time as it is the “right time” to do it.
i would expect the rights of catholics to be allowed in the royal family to be passed very quickly to avoid open dissent for charles.
i would go so far as to say if the queen died in 2009 then the independence vote for scotland in 2010 would be a walkover for the yes campaign. her role in the outcome should not be understated, even at almost a subliminal level.
The point is i am a Tory and one in opposition in Sutton.
Despite massive cock ups locally the LDs still manage to pull off a result like that.
Says more about the Tories i expect than the LDs.
31
Got to go out, but what an excellent post Bunnco, and an superb insight into the issues.
Apologies, I completely misread your post, timmo. I read it as routine crowing, not soul-searching. It is more interesting in that light.
69
That’s more time than most of our leading socialists have ever spent in a council house and yet they are the ones who make a virtue of it.
I could have used a moniker like ’sonofhayek’ when I first starting posting on internet forums, but nothing seems to wind up lefties more, than the idea that someone from an inner city council estate would ever be anything other than a labour loyalist.
75. ‘Pit village Tory’ might be worse still, I guess.
Nasty bullying Tories, Smith, Reid, Blunkett, Brown, McBride, Balls, Harman could be described with two of the first three words.
Fiscally incompetent, monetaray incontinent, intellectually bankrupt, blame everyone else except us Labour.
Gordon My dog ate the Glenrothes voting slips Brown.
75 Babbington pit was just down the hill from my grandparent’s council house. My gramps had been a miner there for a while…
78. My grandfather was from a pit village too…
Meanwhile, I had a distant relative named on here last night.
80. Anne Frank?
Always remember the first line in the army instruction manual on ‘unarmed combat’
The purpose is to, ‘Kill’ the enemy never to wound!
Guido on Osborne.
http://order-order.com/2009/07/03/the-cased-against-osborne/
81 - Sadly, no. Rather more controversial than that!
83. Rik Willis?
“Is this getting a little personal?”
It was always going to become personal IMHO, especially in this new media/Internet era, and with a looming GE that might see power change hands. David Herdson hits the nail on the head@28.
An excellent article and some high-class contributions - thank you.
Politicians and support staff are all drawn from the population at large. Falling standards in our common life will necessarily impact the standards of those who rise to prominence in any field.
My two-penn’orth!
From the survey on Tory candidates.
The survey also reveals a degree of calm about the severing of the Union with Scotland. Traditionally a firm Unionist party, the Conservatives may face a concerted challenge after the election from the Scottish Nationalists for independence. The survey suggests many Tory MPs will not put up severe resistance. Only 53% say the Union should be defended at all costs and 47% say they would not be unhappy if Scotland became independent.
So its bye-bye Easterross.
McBride.
Ian Smith - I should stress that I never met him and indeed have never been to southern Africa. My family is very ordinary, but my grandmother led the life of a Catherine Cookson novel.
87
What survey?
89. The former New Zealand wicket keeper?
53 Just going back to the Sutton & Cheam result, Timmo, the combined effects of a collapse in the Labour vote (I think we can agree on that with just 88 votes) and the presence for the first time of the BNP (211) seem to have come together to hurt the Tories.
I’ve commented before on how at local level, the first appearence of the BNP can be really problematic for the Tories - seems to be a barrier that stops them getting direct transfers from part of the collapsing Labour vote, with the other part of the Labour vote then going to the Libdems. Be interesting to see whether this just flatters the LibDems at local level - or will carry over into the GE.
90
This one!!
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/goldlist/2009/07/pronuclear-gay-friendly-barely-unionist-very-eurosceptic-meet-the-next-generation-of-tory-mps.html
Scotland cannot afford to be independent. RBS and HBOS would be 50 times their GDP not to mention the share of the UK debt they would have to pay back….
morning all and on thread, Morus, Gordon brown wouldn’t know the truth if it jumped up and kicked him in the goollies. this is the man who surrounded himself with pond life like Damian McBride and derek Draper. If the Labour party had been caught trying to smear my wife (hypothetically since I am single) and me by attacking our disabled son, I would shown far less self control than David Cameron has done.
Well done the LibDems for winning a council seat in which they were already on the Tories tails. Can someone please explain to me why the LibDems, from Nick clegg and Vince Cable downwards claim last months’ county councils were clearly a great set of results for the LibDems?
They LOST 50 seats net
They LOST 3 councils including Devon and Somerset and were replaced by the Tories as the largest party in Cornwall.
On the strength of those results they will be hammered in the south-west at the GE.
Meanwhile back in sunny Scotland, Labour’s woes just keep mounting.
In the already dodgy seat of Kilmarnock where ex Defence Secretary Des Browne is fending off an SNP onslaught (the Nats took his Holyrood equivalent seat and the council from Labour in 2007), Johnny Walker whisky is to cease being made in the constituency for the first time since the 1820s resulting in around 700 job losses. Diageo is blaming the recession (Gordon Brown’s recession) for the need to rationalise its Scottish operations. It is also closing a grain distillery in Glasgow and moving some production to an expanded plant in Fife where 400 jobs are being created. Remind me, who is a Fife MP and where have Labour lost one by-election and held on in another under questionable circumstances, oh yes that will be Fife too.
87 Coldstone - that must have horrified you!
After all, losing Scotland from the UK tips the balance of power in the Conservative’s favour. And you know how you always suspect the Tories motives.
I would be very, very sorry to see the Union split. Scotland is a great asset to the UK. However, in the end it is up to the Scottish People to do what they want, and their decision must be respected (unlike EU referendums).
89
You can’t choose your parents antifrank.
90
Cheers. I think Coldstone, you spend more time on ConservativeHome than most tories.
93 Coldstone, so what. Reading the results of that survey, I reckon the vast majority of the electorate would agree with almost every conclusion.
shouldn’t the headline you shout be
“Shock Horror, Tory candidates are actually in touch with the views of the electorate”
Morus: “Brown might be largely a truthful man”
ROTFLMFAO!!!
O/T. This is interesting !
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/steve-richards/steve-richards-you-can-tell-a-lot-about-a-prime-minister-from-his-uturns-1729428.html
coldstone, from a quick look through the survey you link to it appears that the majority of the candidates hold main stream views. I don’t see anything in there that doesn’t ring true with the majority of people I know. As for your original point re independence. I personally would prefer the union to remain, but if the majority in Scotland vote for independence so be it. The main reason I am relaxed about it is that I cannot see any circumstances in the foreseeable future were the people of Scotland will vote for it, so it is hypothetical and not something to worry about.
96
It wouldn’t worry me at all if Scotland went its own way, in fact I would welcome it.
Wales should also be looking towards greater independence, if not a total break.
The split would mean a radical rethink of the political system in England. The anti-Tory majority would demand a new party of the ‘left’ which would have to be formed.
The Tories too won’t be immune to the changes which we will see in the 21st century. Many of them will have to decide what they are, ‘Red or Blue Tories.’ A couple of years in power, they’ll soon be at each others throats.
90
I look at everything.
Easterross, thanks for the information on SNP anti-nuclear policy a few days ago. (Some people dropped in so I couldn’t respond at the time, sorry.)
A nervous warning from chipmunk.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23715146-details/article.do?ito=newsnow&
96. The bit that horrified Coldstone wouldn’t have been the bit about Scotland….
104 I wondered how long it would be before Blears crawled back out from under her rock.
99. I agree. It would be more accurate to say that Brown is a largely dishonest man.
People seem to think the lying Brown meme is new. It’s not. Right from the start in 1997 we’ve had re-announcements masquerading as new initiatives, triple counting, false comparisons (CPI vs RPI for example), periods of continuous growth that included a couple of years of Tory rule, and many other deceits.
What is different is that up until 2007 things appeared to be going well so pointing out that Brown was lying got little traction, now people are willing to listen.
On the ConHome survey, 47% of tory PPCs would have voted for Obama and 43% support some relaxation of cannabis laws.
106
I welcome her contribution.
Keep stirring the pot…
31. But these are currently two tier authorities arent they? When you refer to a ‘doubling’ of the council tax, are you not referring to their whole Council Tax bill, but the very small part of it that is designated for the district council (around 15% to 20%). The bulk of the council tax is paid to the County Council, and under a new system would be all paid to a single council.
In an interview with the Independent, Mr Darling conceded there was no immediate prospect of a full-scale review setting out public expenditure because of the state of the economy.
“To do detailed allocations running up to 2013-14 at the moment just does not make any sense,” he said.
Isn’t this even more justification for a spending review ?
What a bunch of coconuts this government are.
#94 only if you follow some silly argument that because the word Scotland is in their respective titles then an independent Scotland would have had to bail out all their business interests in what was the UK.
It wouldn’t have. What do you think the H stands for in HBOS? That’s where the operational headquarters are. And since when were Ulster (UlsterBank) and Westminster (NatWest) in Scotland?
43. We hope so anyway. I dont want ‘nice’ people running the nation, i want cunning, i want nerves of steel, i want the capacity to be utterly ruthless. And, i want a strong parliament that can keep him in check.
Morning All,
Labour seem to have decided that the best way to innoculate their leader from character assassination is to characterise all personal attacks as lacking in virtue: borne of nastiness. In doing so, they hope to have greater resolve, and to cause the Conservatives onto the murkier, less emotive ground of policy.
The irony of this is that as a response Labour resort to the sort of ‘personal attacks lacking in virtue: borne of nastiness’ that has characterised Labour’s approach to politics for decades (commencing in the late 70’s?). If there is a legacy from the Blair / Brown years it is that this Government (ably assisted by the media) have turned our Government into a childish schoolyard caricature of what it should be.
It is of little surprise that there is no longer room in the entertainment industry for the likes of ‘Spitting Image’ because this is the ‘Spitting Image’ Government. No TV program can outdo this Government for its ridiculousness. Brown and his Youtube incident, the bottled election, the two bottled coups, the never-ending stream of u-turns, relaunches, botched legislation and increasingly Parliamentary defeats. Has there ever been such a shameful and absurd excuse for a government?
So given their failure what is Labour’s ‘masterplan’ to save themselves? To indulge in personal attacks that say more about them than it does about the opposition parties who have correctly identified the genetic hysteria, cowardice, incompetence, dishonesty and hypocrisy of Labour.
As a result, Labour have debased and soiled the institutions of Government and Parliament to such an extent that they deserve to never have the opportunity to govern again.
I’ve no doubt they are going to continue with their pathetic spineless whining. “They’re all picking on me’.
Well the reality of failure is unforgiving, because it is they, the Labour Party who have failed big time, wrecking this country along the way, in their deluded, self serving, arrogant and incompetent manner and as a result they deserve every ounce of the opprobrium and humiliation they get!
Just like the failing Conservatives under Major in 1997 with their ‘Demon Eyes’ campaign, when all else fails - get personal. It didn’t save Major and it won’t save Brown. I only hope that Brown suffers twice the defeat Major did……
111
Wayne - They can’t have it both ways, can they? Why is it OK for Labour to say detailed allocations make no sense, when they keep saying the Conservative should provide detailed allocations?
107 glw - agreed, that is what I find so ‘refreshing’ now is that Brown is being pulled up for it properly.
The fact that his form of lying got it’s own euphemism of ‘Brownies’ says a lot. It was just the final straw of Darling’s non-move that pushed the journalists over the edge.
Brown was playing them for suckers to their faces at that press conference - a very stupid mistake and look where it has got him.
Gordon Brown, Gordon Brown
He’s a clown, that Gordon Brown
He’s gonna get tough now
Just you wait and see
“Why is everybody always picking on me?”
We’ve had this locally for successive elections - I make a habit of not criticising people personally (though I can be snide about their policies and statements, as broxtowe cat has pointed out), succesive Tory candidates have had a go at slagging me off, getting told off for it by voters, and retreating - by polling day they’re usually quite civil. I’m not sure how typical Broxtowe is, though - it’s a very quiet, mostly middle-class, constitiency and they really don’t like the mud-wrestling stuff.
I notice that the responses from Conservatives on the thread are almost entirely on the lines of, “Well, it’s justified.” That misses the subtle point that Morus is making. We can debate all day whether X is mendacious or Y is evasive. But the voters generally think that’s sort of true of all of us, so they see it as unpleasant posturing if one side starts abusing the other. Historically it’s always got politicians into trouble - cf. Bevan’s ‘vermin’ attack on the Tories.
It’s also much easier to combat than policy attacks. I can always ‘win’ an argument here with, say, Al Fresco, merely by replying civilly: I don’t need to bother to respond substantively to “all Labour MPs are Lying Scum who should be Imprisoned for Crimes Against the British People”, which is his usual gist. It’s much harder to win an argument with, say, the urbane Richard Nabavi.
There is also something objectively undesirable about lowering the tone too much, especially if you hope soon to be governing. It might damage your opponents, but it also damages all politicians by reinforcing the general view that we’re *all* nasty.
(With apologies to both Charles Schultz and The Coasters.)
68 O/T Having lived in a house that John Major had lived in (a very nice Victorian 4 +2 bedroom house then owned by a very well born art restorer and his titled wife, now living in a National Trust country estate) I can say Mr Major was not a Brixton boy, he was a Camberwell lad as his homes were SE5 not SW9.
I suppose Brixton sounded grittier.
118 Perhaps you ought to mention this to your Party Leader the next time he brings up the Conservatives’ new EU grouping
People get nasty’ when they feel wronged or that their opponents are being dishonest.
If ever there was a more dishonest , coniving ,self serving government than this one I cannot remmeber it. -Iraq , hiding the true scale of debt, hiding the fact that there is a need for public spending cuts, getting opposition MPs arrested for embarrasing it etc
118. Oh please spare us the ‘I am so high minded and my opponents such proles’ line, Nick.
You are an enthusiastic supporter of a party which has made lies and disgusting smears the centrepiece of its political strategy. You are no better than any of the hysterical posters on here.
Apologies if already mentioned here… But a good idea for a thread?
“Blue Up North?” - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8128982.stm
118 Thanks, Nick. I don’t think I’ve been called ‘urbane’ before!
On a related but slightly different point, what I personally find more annoying than outright attacks by politicians is the debasing of language to disguise an untruth. A classic example is Labour’s repeated use of the word ‘investment’ - which has, or used to have, a perfectly clear meaning - in place of the correct word ’spending’.
To be fair, it’s not only politicians that do this; companies do it all the time. That doesn’t make it any less reprehensible, and it contributes enormously to the ‘politicians are all lying scumbags’ feeling.
REMEMBER
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3124677.stm
The prime minister is facing calls to sack his spokesman for referring to government weapons inspector Dr David Kelly as a “Walter Mitty” character.
115.
Simple answer : They are Hypocrites !
118. McBride.
End of thread.
120 Surely he was a Loughborough Junction Boy which, I think straggles both post codes. And wasn’t he eventually educated on the edges of Wimbledon? Many people change their back story for effect, whether moving up or down the social perception ladder. I know a rather distinguished and aged musician, born not far from the Major house, whose Who’s Who entry shows him educated at Loughborough School. He was - Loughbororough Junction Elementary School.
122 and for making up ‘nasty’ Opposition policies that don’t exist.
That really gets my goat as it’s not stretching a point - it’s a straight lie, and the only reason to do this is to make voters feel frightened rather than convincing them of your argument.
128. Apologies, not quite EoT as Balls said it is Mr. McBride.
As for Nick Palmer not attacking opponents personally well sometimes it may be right to if their behaviour is reprehensible -I’m sure I ‘ve read that nick palmer once informed on a troy MP for telling ‘racist’ jokes. That may have been the right thing to do but surely it is a personal attack?
126. Draper. Whelan. Campbell. Balls.
118. Nick Palmer.
I agree that here certainly, you have not resorted to the sort of politics that is the trademark of your party. However, as part of a ‘collective’ party, you individually do have a responsibility within that collectivism. You are after all the party of Blair and Brown, of Campbell and Mandelson, of Balls, Watson and Simon, of McBride, Wheland, Maguire and Draper. Have you ever publicly condemned any of them? I doubt it.
Those who are loyal foot soldiers, as yourself, who stand by doing and saying nothing while their colleagues sully our political system are just as guilty.
So don’t try and turn this on to anyone else but yourselves. Whilst other Governments may have done much in undermining the institutions of Government and Parliament, this Labour Government has taken it to new levels of defilement.
That is why your party and it’s leaders are treated with contempt and deservedly so. Above and beyond anything else, they have defiled our political system and as such deserve everything they get.
NPMP - Re our bet, payment on its way to the cats protection people from p/t 161.
If you are still in the market, what price are you offering on Gordon being out as PM before the end of 2009?
Labour just need to grow up and take the criticism. If they didn’t tell so many fricking lies and answere questions at PMQs then they wouldn’t keep getting asked would they……. PATHETIC LOAD OF SCHOOLKIDS !
134 I’d forgotten about Sion Simon and his YouTube exploits - didn’t he invite viewers to sleep with David Cameron’s wife?
Just read the Bradshaw article. Reminds me of the racism smears against Boris. Tories should recall McBride whenever remarks like that are made.
“Largely truthful”? Well, you’re half right, he is fairly large. But really, “I do not make personal attacks on people. I have tried to avoid doing that during my political career”? Give me a break. Can you please give an example of honest statements Brown has made in the last 20 years? From telling the voters before 1997 that the Tories would raid peoples’ pensions to the above statement, its been one huge trail of odious lies.
And, now he’s been caught red handed, because he has become so accustomed to telling lies and getting away with it, he now tells lies that a blind rabbit could spot, he gets all high and mighty.
I don’t think I’ve ever come across such an appalling person.
128 Yup. Ed Balls trying to do the equidistance thing - the Radio 4 “”Mr” McBride - who he?” routine when when referring to a longstanding and close friend on the one hand, whilst admititng he is still keeping in contact with a man whose vile output he imagines will serve his purposes of keeping Labour (and his own ambitions of becoming Prime Minister) alive.
Too many people now have so low an opinion of the PM that they would have no doubts that if McBride could devise the most unimaginably appalling slander, Gordon Brown would STILL pounce on it like a shot if that is what it took to keep the Tories from power. And that it would probably apply to most Labour MP’s too. Perhaps Nick could enlighten us.
140. Nick was very slippery last time I challenged him re. McBride’s role in the Labour Party, I seem to recall.
137. Indeed and his kids IIRC. Sion is amongst the sickest morons of the lot!
132: well, I’ll tell you what happened you can judge for yourself. I went to a dinner with a Danish company where one of the Tory MPs told a racist joke: they were about 20 MPs there. A couple of days later, the Mirror rang me up to say they’d heard about it, could I confirm it, and what did I think about it? I said yes, the joke had been told and I thought it was horrible. I’m not sure that counts as a personal attack (do you think so?), and the MP and I remain on civil personal terms.
More generally, the ‘well you lot do it too’ argument is clearly sometimes true - I’ve said what I think of McBride etc. before, and I’ve seen leaflets from Labour as well as others which made me say ‘yuk’. But we’re discussing here whether it’s a *wise* tactic for the party leaders to slag off their opponents for real or imagined personal defects. In general, I don’t think it is.
scrapheap: thanks very much! The Broxtowe cats are having a rest at the moment.
137 - I believe he did. I believe he said “that’s cool”.
Personally, I think it’s much cooler that Sion Simon will one day be blind, and might fall over a banana skin or something else similarly comical.
137
merely warm-up exercise compared to his Magnum Opus
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
This is delusion on an epic scale, bordering on the pathological, from one of the 17 who formed the Liebestandarte ‘Gordon Brown’ and ousted Blair.
145. Yes the tone of that article is rather similar to something from Der Sturmer, isn’t it?
145 ‘Like latter day Pushkins drilled in the elite academy of Brownian blitzkrieg, they are bursting with their sense of destiny. It’s not the Milibands, the Ballses or the Burnhams who are unconsciously nervous. This is the moment for which they were created. They are ready.’
That article never fails to raise a smile.
It’s rather hard to see what an opposition confronted with a PM and several other ministers that lie regularly can do other than point out that they aren’t being truthful.
Sooner or later it will dawn on the electorate that this governments refusal to face up to fiscal responsibility will mean that roughly 10% of our future taxes may be going simply to pay interest and that they are being deliberately kept in the dark about it.
147 It’s no laughing matter. These people are already in power…
When Brown tells lies then we should say so.
Brown said spending would rise in future years - implying Tories would cut spending. The fact is by his own figures departmental spending would fall from 44 billion to 22 billion.
The budgets own figures show a 7% cut in spending across the board, protecting health puts it up to 10% and add in education puts it up to 13.5%. Thats his own figures.
Even his 0% rise was in fact a 0% fall.
So what are you supposed to do Mr Morus? Shrug your shoulders and let Brown infect the population with his lies?
Its Brown who is ‘nasty’ - his performance at the last PMQs was truly sickening.
And Mr Palmer - in Ireland they tell jokes about people from Cork. Is that ‘racist’?
“Yes the tone of that article is rather similar to something from Der Sturmer, isn’t it?”
It’s called hubris.
And hubris, like so many other afflictions — like culture shock, like insanity — only gets worse if you persist in believing you don’t have it.
145 - how did someone so incredibly stupid get into Oxford?
And Sion Simon looks like a stormtrooper if ever there was one!
150. I think the idea that by pointing out that politicians are lying we somehow damage the body politic is pure bullsh*t.
It is the toleration of lying and deceit by politicians that has landed us in the current situation, in which our politics has fallen into contempt.
Rolling back the culture of spin and smear requires politicians who engage in it to be brought to book consistently, not indulged in their fantasy self-image of being superior beings deserving of deference and respect regardless of their personal conduct.
143. Personally I think this idea that Cameron is “bullying” brown is fairly ridiculous and a rather sad attempt by Labour to gain some time/sympathy and is not the first time I have heard it from Labour. There is an obvious dislike between the two leaders and that shows at PMQs. What it comes down to is that Brown believes he has a higher moral standing than all tories. It is a trait that runs through labour. Cameron picks holes in that belief at PMQs when reality proves inconsistent with that belief. Brown then gets angry because what is said doesn’t fit with his worldview. Holding the Government to account and exposing the PM’s weaknesses is not bullying it’s called being an opposition
I have to say Brown’s claim at last PMQs that the Tories were the party of unemployment really made me realise quite how painfully bad he is as PM. I mean it’s not even a credible argument. You don’t get arguments that ill thought through at local Government level. As Morus has said Tories have had taunts on all sorts of things over the years (look at the vitriol directed towards thatcher by some)and Blair wasn’t exactly gentle with Major….
We need an election.
152, I heard somewhere or other that Mascara Man was educated at Cambridge. A good school is no guarantee of a good student.
Here’s a video of Gordon Brown with some child-shields in a nursery… but he hasn’t escaped awkward moments as he is forced to sing Old McDonald Had a Farm. See how uncomfortable he is, especially near the end:
http://playpolitical.typepad.com/labour_party/2009/07/uncomfortable-brown-sings-old-macdonald-had-a-farm.html
Peter Hitchens really is a tit isn’t he…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/question_time/8132234.stm
Wrong at virtually every turn.
150 - “in Ireland they tell jokes about people from Cork. Is that ‘racist’?”
It’s Kerry actually.
Let’s hope Gordon V Dave never degenerates to this level:
http://tinyurl.com/mwhx5z
Daves behaviour is being attacked as to aggressive in some circles (amazingly Quentin Letts accused him this morning of “traducing PMQ’s) but in other spheres he is doing a very good touchy feely routine.
“He spoke of using ‘positive action’ to encourage more gay, female or ethnic minority candidates to join the party, saying: ‘An open door is not exactly inviting to a young black candidate if all they see is a group of white, middle-aged Conservative men inside’.”
None of this is a mystery, as this secret CCHQ memo that has fallen into my hands demonstrates.
All Dave is doing is playing two roles rather well.
‘Good fop/bad fop’ tactics involves a team of two interrogators who take apparently opposing approaches to the subject. The interrogators may interview the subject alternately or may confront the subject at the same time.
The ‘bad fop’ takes an aggressive, negative stance towards the subject, making blatant accusations, derogatory comments, threats, and in general creating antipathy between the subject and himself. This sets the stage for the ‘good fop’ to act sympathetically: appearing supportive, understanding, in general showing sympathy for the subject. The good fop will also defend the subject from the bad fop. The subject may feel he can cooperate with the good fop out of trust and/or fear of the bad fop. He may then seek protection by and trust the good fop and tell him the needed information.
143. Nick Palmer
Labour have led the narrative and decided the playing fields for the last 15 years. It is they who have fed the media with perpetual smears and irrelevances. Was that ‘wise’?
Labour set the rules back in the mid 90’s and decided to play the game, firstly in the political gutter and now latterly in the political sewers. Was that ‘wise’?
It is far too late for Labour loyalists to mutter about the wisdom of it all when you have been well and truly foisted on your own collective petard. There has been no wisdom or integrity in the politics from this Government. Only when you have been collectively despatched can we realistically turn to the questions of wisdom and integrity in politics.
So, whether it is wise to highlight Labour’s collective failings is irrelevant. It may be distasteful but it is both highly justified ( being both true and being resisted by Labour) and essentially necessary!
And if the only reaction in it’s triviality, you feel to the machinations of your party machine is ‘yuk’ (sic) then you really are suffering from the collective delusion that has done so much damage to our political system.
Perhaps you are far more part of the problem than you think!
157 He only knows the Farmy-farm version.
Everybody involved from the children upwards does look wretchedly uncomfortable about the whole event. At least no child screamed and ran away…that we saw.
160 Tim, you need a holiday mate. Otherwise, by the time of the election you will be reduced to typing random consonants.
S. M. R. C. M. R. N.
157 Great post. Have you read the comments posted below the video link? The one from ‘Huntsman’ is great -
‘12. There seem to be a lot of animals on this farm. Have they all got tags? Have they all got passports? Has Old Macdonald filled in all his movement orders and subsidy forms properly? Has he been paying all the tax he owes on all this livestock? Have any of his animals come from dodgy overseas countries? Hadn’t we best raid this Old Codger’s farm and arrest him under our anti-terrorist powers, keep him in for 28 days so we find out what he’s really been up to? After all he is going to have to explain why he has all that fertiliser in his sheds: sounds like a bomb-maker to us.’
Scary blog
http://cynicuseconomicus.blogspot.com/
However it is spun, it is apparent that government borrowing is being funded through the printing of money, the weasel worded ‘quantitative easing’. However it is spun, it is fundamentally no different from Zimbabwe, Argentina or the Weimar Republic. Resorting to the printing press is the action of a bankrupt government.
The UK government is bankrupt.
I had forgotten that Gordon brown had told the electorate in 1997 that if re-elected the Tories would raid their pensions. Pretty rich coming from a man who in the past 12 years has stolen £125 billion from private sector pension schemes causing thousands of them to shut down, whilst lecturing us on the need to save for retirement. Speaking personally my pension pot is now worth 50% of its 1997 value and that excludes any diminution for inflation so it is probably worth around 30-40% of its 1997 value. some return thanks Gordon.
Of course all the Labour supporting public sector workers see their final salary pension funds just keep on rising because when they have a hole, they tax us to pay for them. I hope a Cameron government closes ALL public sector final salary schemes presently in deficit.
Nick, you always strike me as being personally a reasonable chap but you diminish your standing by supporting one of the most odious regimes this country has ever had, run by the ultimate control freak.
Coldstone, you won’t get rid of me that easily. What is stop me taking joint nationality. After all I have Letters Patent which describe me as an (English) officer and a gentleman!!
Iran to put British embassy staff on trial
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
Just read this from the link above. My god it is horrific. Was it some form of spoof article that was published in error? There is no way that it was serious surely?
Brown the “Moral Man” :I read about this on here last night but heres the detail:
hhttp://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/07/gordon-brown-and-his-norwich-mps.html
168, did you check the date? At the time of writing a strong Labour GE victory was a very credible possibility.
Polls Polls…. Where art though !
When are we getting a YouGov anyone know ?
Labour fleeing from the press again
Duncan also reveals that he was due to appear on the Today programme this morning to discuss Bradshaw and Bryant’s remarks. But when Bryant learned that he would be put in a head-to-head debate with the Tory shadow, the thing was called off.
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/07/duncan-says-bradshaw-and-bryant-are-the-nasty-party-on-gay-rights.html
Those wihout sin etc.
It would be a stupid tactic because there is so much evidence of Brown and labour using personal attacks.
The only way labour could do it would be to apologise for having done so and to promise not to do it again and stick to it.
As if that’s going to happen.
‘Without sin’ rather.
159 Neil, Dubliners do tell jokes about Cork all the time. My godson in Dublin has a Dublin father and a Cork mother and the Dublin side of the family and their friends are always making jokes about Cork.
Indeed when the Pope came to Ireland, the joke was that he visited Dublin and not Cork. Maureen Potter the late great Irish comedienne had a wonderful series of jokes on this subject in a couple of her live shows and I always keep a tape of them in my car because no matter how down I get, I can only burst into fits of laughter when listening to her.
It is also the case that if an Irish person is very “gobby” like a Glaswegian or Liverpudlian then another Irish person will turn to him/her and say “you will be from Cork then?”
As for Kerry, wonderful county. One of my neighbours titles comes from Kerry (not that I think he has ever been there)The Gap of Dunloe is a beauty to behold but I haven’t a scooby what they are saying and even my Dubliner friends struggle to understand them.
New BOE Housing Equity figures out this morning.
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/statistics/hew/2009/mar/hew.gif
£24 BN less being pumped into the economy per quarter from people’s house value cash machine than at the peak of Brown’s “boom”.
But - it started in America remember…
172: cor…someones actually scared of Alan Duncan.
175 - Trust me on this one, it is Kerrymen that are the traditional butt of jokes (that over here might often have been told about Irishmen in general) over in Ireland.
Ps if your pension pot has really fallen in value by 50% since 1997 then you really should be considering sacking or suing whoever is managing it. That’s a woeful rate of return and you cant really put the blame for it on any government - it’s something you should have sorted out yourself long ago I’m afraid.
md, re the Simon article, yes I read the date. The article would be horrific at any time. Can you really believe that while he was churning out that drivel that he for one moment thought, I wonder how this will look in a few years time? If he was not ashamed of it at the time it would become inevitable that he would be ashamed of it at some point in the future. It just displays a total lack of perception on his part and is worrying that someone who could produce that is a member of the government.
Nick Palmer is discussing tactics here, and he is absolutely right.
172 Ghost
There’s a sentence in that piece which surprised me:
“There’s no doubt that Cameron’s apology over Section 28 this week was seen as a watershed moment in the party’s relations with the gay ‘community’, if you can use such a phrase.”
Do PBers see it as a ‘watershed moment’? I would have thought it rather a non-event nowadays.
181. I think the watershed was that Cameron can do this sort of stuff without any discontent from his own ranks. Winds up Bryant, Bradshaw and tim no end mind you.
180. suck suck
181 - Is it true that Samantha Cameron talked him round on Section 28?
“Brown might be largely a truthful man”.
It’s hard to imagine anyone less innately truthful. The 0% growth thing was pretty clear evidence that his overwhelming instinct is always to deceive, about everything, however ridiculous it sounds, because the truth is always shameful. I think it’s more down to insecurity than malice.
184 proves 182
182
It does. Shorn of demonisation, they have very little to say.
”We are the party of authoritarianism, targets and debt.” Doesn’t really have the sound of a winner.
184, tim, we have no way of knowing either way. More to the point neither do you, so why ask? Don’t bother tim, it’s a rhetorical question I am well aware that you don’t do answers only questions.
182 - Not true at all.
The Conservative position on equality is something that pleases me no end.
It makes the whole political atmosphere cleaner.
78 Neil, sorry but Gordon Brown is 100% to blame. He has taxed the dividend income for 12 years and stripped that out of the fund. In the last 12 months my bank shares have reduced in value from £1200 to £30. That is not the fault of my advisors. That is the fault of Brown’s total mismanagement of UK plc including his “love affair” with bankers like sir Fred Goodwin who had an open door to No 11 Downing Street, something Brown chooses to forget.
Between 1997 and 2007 the value of my pension fund went up and down but by 2007 it was back to 1997 levels and since 2007 has collapsed by 50%. As Scottish Widows are the 2nd or 3rd biggest player in the market, they cannot be blamed because Brown has trashed the economy. I suspect between now and the GE millions of others will see how much their assets have collapsed. I reckon at present Gordon Brown owes me roughly £250,000, the fall in asset value since 1997 and that is even with an increase in house prices.
179, ah, my mistake.
Yes, it is a fascinating document. I rather like things like that. They’re useful for betraying the inner thoughts of the authors, who in this case appears to be dreaming of being in a certain military unit of infamy most notable for its operations during the 1939-1945 conflict with Germany whilst at the same suffering tented trouser syndrome.
181, I thought it a non-event. But then, I’m a straight guy who hates identity politics.
Now, excuse me, I have to go see which party has the best policies for heterosexual Yorkshiremen who enjoy morris dancing and breeding enormo-haddock.
I wish Sarah could make herself useful and talk Brown out of ID cards.
192. Outside her job remit.
193 Hell of a job remit:
“Make Gordon look, well, you know - a bit more normal.”
Eek!
I’ve just read the Bradshaw article.
I’m appalled - no wonder Duncan is spitting tacks.
What on Earth are Labour thinking of? To try and smear the Tories as homophobes is well - astoundingly 1980s, ugly and shows how scared they are.
If I were gay, I think I’d be pretty insulted by Bradshaw’s ‘you’ll rue the day you voted Tory’ line as if this group were stupid children.
I mentioned upthread about trying to scare voters rather than winning them over was very low - this attempt is beneath contempt.
The idea that people should stand in solidarity simply based on what rouses their loins has always baffled me. It’s as dumb as assuming Harvey Milk and J. Edgar Hoover should’ve automatically been the best of friends.
165. GoHF. No. This guy is wrong. It is true that the QE is buying government debt. However, do we believe that if QE stops and foreigners were to keep selling debt that Britain would be bankrupt? No. Instead what would happen is that the interest rate on UK gilts would rise. The government would need to pay more for issuing new debt. Governments cannot go “bankrupt”. They can find that they cannot borrow - but the UK government is a long way from that.
It is possible that with another wave in the financial crisis and a loss of confidence in the UK government’s willingness to control future debt that Sterling could tank and gilts would require substantially higher coupons (interest rates). This is what Niall Ferguson and Paul Krugman have been arguing about.
Governments are very creditworthy entities. They have the ability to tax the productive part of the economy. They can print money and create inflation. Political pressures limit their freedom of movement in some ways (cutting spending, raising taxes, printing money) as do some economic realities (too high a tax rate and everything goes underground).
Anyway, QE is about increasing the flexibility of monetary policy - which means lowering interest rates out past the effective impact of the base rate (a few months).
There is a non-zero probability that we get a financial crisis - which is why Merv King is worried and why Darling is antsy. But to claim the UK is “bankrupt” is an overstatement. That Britain is heavily in debt, goes without saying.
190 - I’m sorry but if your current pension pot is only worth 50% of its nominal value in 1997 despite contributions and dividend / other income from that time then you have got to look much closer to home for people to blame for that situation. Blaming the government is a total cop-out.
196. “The idea that people should stand in solidarity simply based on what rouses their loins has always baffled me.”
Excluding of course the small hardcore of Ruth Kelly fans on PB.
195 - Its not 1980’s ugly.
Six years ago they were voting for Section 28.
I don’t doubt its sincerity on the front bench.
Don’t know enough about the new intake but I doubt that there will be too many 1980s style homophobes in it.
192. Leave off - she’s doing a decent job looking nice..and performing most of the other functions a Prime Minister’s wife is supposed to.
197 Ken - a big question, but one which has a profound impact on the date of the election and just how badly Labour might do: when will UK interest rates start to be raised again? I’ve seen it suggested that they may stay as they are until the year end - do you agree? And when they move - how quickly?
(I do appreciate that if you can answer that succinctly and correctly, then George Soros is probably envious of your forecasting skills!!)
165.The Ghost of Harry Flashman
Very scary. It also makes clearer why the Governor of the Bank of England is so worried by the failure of the Government to have a meaningful plan to get Government Borrowing down. Politically a key issue would seem to be when should the Bank of England start to unwind the monetary easing?
I realise this is not a very gallant comment, but hey ho. Ruth Kelly and the word hardcore should never be uttered in the same sentence.
198 “190 - I’m sorry but if your current pension pot is only worth 50% of its nominal value in 1997 despite contributions and dividend / other income from that time then you have got to look much closer to home for people to blame for that situation. Blaming the government is a total cop-out.”
I bet if it had doubled you’d be claiming the credit on behalf of ‘the government’s superb economic management’ though.
198, so Brown taxing pensions and their collapse are two unrelated events?
There we have it. Crticising Government failure is a cop-out, pointing out Government lies is bullying.
204 - Why the hell would I?! Some people have to learn that not everything is down to the government.
199 I hope you meant to say “hard core”. Putting “Hardcore” and “Kelly” in the same sentence is, well, a little too trouser-troubling to many here…
Good morning.
“Brown to slash £21m from Boris Johnson’s development budget
Raid on mayor of London’s funds intended to pay for government housing programmes”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/03/boris-johnson-development-budget-cuts
207 - Try this.
Barbed Wire Garter Bolton
“Gordon’s Redwood moment
This is just hilarious.
Our dear Prime Minister looks at his most awkward as he’s invited to sing Old MacDonald Had A Farm with some toddlers.”
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/07/gordons-redwood-moment.html
How dare Mr Nick Palmer MP say he never indulges in personal attacks! When I first posted here he referred to me as a ‘creature’, impugning my very humanity!
http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2007/09/02/sunday-papers-round-up/#comment-504255
195 Plato, clearly Bradshaw has forgotten about the opinion poll Gaydar sponsored which showed for the first time that more gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender (LGBT is so much easier) voters intend to vote Tory than Labour. The pink vote like so many other minority groupings in our very complex society has been taken for granted by Labour for far too long.
Finally LBGT voters are in many cases waking up to the fact that a Tory Government 2010 is as removed from the section 28 supporting Tory Governments of the past as the present Labour Government has anything to do with principles of socialism as understood by Labour voters of the 1960s or 1970s.
211, furthermore, didn’t Mr. Palmer get into trouble for saying naughty things about a Tory or Tories in his constituency?
In other, happier, news, it’s raining
211. I seem to recall him referring to other posters as ‘Mad Axemen’ on another occasion.
Although to be fair, one of them was ‘Printz’…
“Darling’s position of strength”
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3737868/darlings-position-
of-strength.thtml
Brogan has a similar piece.
211 - We were all calling you a Creature, Stark. It’s what you are.
210:’Watch what he does with his hands, picking up a toy, trying to do anything to get through the agony.’
Clearly he needs the comfort of Farmy-Farm to get through it.
214-Again
http://tinyurl.com/maayor
211. Stark. Well remembered. Indeed I had forgotten that and IIRC I challenged him on another occasion (it was not an isolated abberration on his part) when he used that description with a post ending it with something like…
Pot, Kettle, Black….
210 - ohh… my… heavens!
210. It’s strange - you would think a father would have some natural empathy with other children.
[150,159] - “in Ireland they tell jokes about people from Cork. Is that ‘racist’”
My experience has been that people from Cork make jokes about people from Cork..
211 - I remember NPMP referring to me as an ‘extreme right winger’ because I used Amnesty International’s figures to diss his argument….
The memory still makes me chuckle.
118
Nick Palmer
‘There is also something objectively undesirable about lowering the tone too much, especially if you hope soon to be governing. It might damage your opponents, but it also damages all politicians by reinforcing the general view that we’re *all* nasty.’
So with that in mind any idea why Gordon Brown personally chose Damien McBride whose past form was so well known?
All politicans may be nasty, but some are more nasty than others…..
Iain Dale has his 2p
http://www.iaindale.blogspot.com/
226 - And lets not forget the man at the heart of Camerons Media team is Andy Coulson.
And we all know his past form
“Can Brown’s inner circle be broken?”
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3738328/can-browns-inner-circle-be-broken.thtml
218: ‘We were all calling you a Creature, Stark. It’s what you are.’
Why, for daring to suggest that Gordon Brown would be an unmitigated disaster for the Labour Party? Yes, his sub-Footite election results demonstrate just how off beam my predictions were!
“Gordon’s Redwood moment
This is just hilarious.
Our dear Prime Minister looks at his most awkward as he’s invited to sing Old MacDonald Had A Farm with some toddlers.”
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/07/gordons-redwood-moment.html
Let’s hope a teacher at the next school on Brown’s ‘Pre-School Human Shield Tour 09′ gets him to sing 100 Green Bottles, and makes him last the duration
230. Is there a deliberate double entendre, there, do you think?
“Speaker Bercow breaks the rules
(…)So, did the Speaker leak his own statement? Perhaps not. There is another theory which suggests someone on the Government benches felt it would be a good idea to leak the Speakers’ statement so he would have to drop any plans to take action against them in future for fear of being branded a hypocrite.
Or, put another way, despite all the talk of reform, it’s business as usual in the Palace of Westminster”
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/50032,news,the-mole-speaker-john-bercow-breaks-his-own-rules
232 Flashback
Yes, any teachers or nursery staff who watch that will now know that there is a way to get the most evil and immoral Prime Minister in living memory to stop using child-shields to avoid being doorstepped with awkward questions.
It’s absolute genius! Force him to interact, emote and be human with the child-shields!
232 Redwood had a sort of excuse - he was confronted with a foreign language.
Gordon? Confronted with a nursery rhyme. And blows it.
One for the return of HIGNFY… BIG regret though - if only they had got him mouthing “with an oink-oink here, an oink-oink there…”, they could have played it over images of the Cabinet troughers!
Can anyone tell me if a General Election could be called during the conference party season so that a party (most likely the Conservatives) have to abandon their conference?
Can anyone tell me if a General Election could be called during the conference party season so that a party (most likely the Conservatives) have to abandon their conference?
That’s the plan
207.Off topic, I was up at my local hospital this morning and heard that the local health trust has been told to make savings in expenditure of £75M over the next five years ‘because of the recession’. They estimate that it will mean losing, or not replacing, up to 600 staff a year for five years. That information has now been confirmed by a piece on the BBC website. One of the people who may not be replaced when he retires later this year is the consultant who, bless his cotton socks, has done his best to keep me alive for the last ten years.
Now, I don’t know what you think, but the compulsory saving of £75M sounds like a cut to me. You know, one of those nasty things that the evil, baby-eating, Eton-attending Tories will introduce if elected, unlike the present Government who, out of the goodness of its heart, will carry on investing in the NHS for ever and ever.
212 - I don’t often feel sorry for Gordon Brown - most of the discomfort he endures is self-inflicted - but I can’t help but feel for him there.
237 - there’s no reason why it couldn’t be, since effectively the PM alone has the power to determine the date of an election.
There’s a new EU grouping for tiny tim to get excited about - formed by UKIP:
http://www.indhome.com/2009/07/01/ukip-forms-new-european-grouping/
ENJOY!
237. No reason. However I think it would backfire as being a “stunt” - everything Bruno touches turns to brown.
I see Gordo’s “meet the people” Tour is going well
The problem was they were too young for him to ask them what they wanted to be when they grow up or if they liked their desk. And not sure his amusing Einstein story would have gone down too well either!
238 No, that will be “a 0% rise in investment” which your hospital is experiencing. It couldn’t be a cut. No sirree…
Good luck with your healthcare, anyway.
241 - The Slovak National Party hate Jews, Roma and Homosexuals.
No surprises there
But Hungarians?
Their leader is quoted as saying things like: “Let’s all get in tanks and go and flatten Budapest
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5151504.stm
237. No. Conference would not need to be abandoned.
17 days notice of an election must be given - as a minimum - and, were that to happen, the Tories could simply alter the agenda of Conference to be a launchpad for the GE campaign. They’d have full media attention anyway, so it’d probably backfire on Brown.
The Monarch also has to approve a dissolution. She could always withhold her approval until the following working day after the conference.
241 I’m sure Tim will enjoy getting his teeth into these bedfellows of UKIP:
Denmark: Dansk Folkeparti, 2 MEPs
Finland: True Finns, 1 MEP
France: Libertas (Mouvement pour la France – CPNT), 1 MEP
Greece: LAOS, 2 MEPs
Italy: Lega Nord, 9 MEPs
Netherlands: Staatkundig Gereformeerde Partij, 1 MEP
Slovakia: Slovenská národná strana, 1 MEP
Gotta be some swivel-eyed loons in there that make the Tory group look mainstream, surely?
Have the 2 BNP MEPs joined a grouping yet ?
232 The bits I watched didn’t seem too bad. But then i realised that I had only watched some bits and turned off because I was sure it would be cringe-making. And that surely is the point. People feel they have a cringe worthy PM and shut off to spare their own embarassment. No one can survive that no matter how many relaunches or how well the economy odes or doesn’t perform. Ridicule and causing embarassment are every bit as strong routes to defeat as hatred or passionate disagreement.
248: I’m hearing they think the current grouping which labour is in is too authortarian for them.
247 Wow Tim - I see you are already well into the task by post 245!!
Anyone would think you had some notes already prepared…
251: Plus they don’t want to be associated with Turkish Terrorists.
I wonder what the children were told before Gordon’s visit. I know of one infant school where the children were told, before an Ofsted inspection, that the Queen was sending her friends to the school and that they must be on their best behaviour.
237 – The calling of a GE is the prerogative of the PM, there are very few restrictions afaik as to when a G.E can be called, Christmas being one of them; some restriction are down to practicality (School holidays, early nights etc) the rest are more convention.
There is no requirement to cancel a conference, but to call an election during ‘Conference Season’ would be a break with tradition and would be seen as partisan in the extreme. The backlash of which would render any perceived advantage meaningless if nor more detrimental to the party calling it.
245. tim - I’m disappointed. I thought you’d do *much* better than that.
Here is what a poster on the UKIP site could pull together:
Dansk Folkeparti: anti-EU, anti-immigration, anti-Islamic right wing party
True Finns (Perussuomalaiset): anti-EU, anti-capitalist, extreme left wing party
Mouvement pour la France: eurosceptic but not anti-EU, virulently anti-Islamic and anti-immigration
LAOS (Popular Orthodox Rally): anti-semitic, anti-homosexual, “extreme-right”, racist, xenophobic and ethnocentric”
Lega Nord a populist party described by its leader as “libertarian, but also socialist”, virulently anti-immigration (especially from Moslem countries).
Staatkundig Gereformeerde Partij (Political Reformed Party): a sectarian Protestant Christian fundamentalist party whose past includes opposing women’s suffrage and only recently (2006) allowing women to become members. Guess where they stand on gay rights or immigration.
Slovenská národná strana (Slovak National Party) describes itself as Christian, national and socialist. The party characterizes itself as right wing, but frequently described as ultra-nationalist, right-wing extremist and neo-fascist (because of its offensive and often racist statements about the Hungarians, the Roma, Jews and homosexuals).
Not up to your usual standard tim!
O/T
West Lothian Question will arise its ugly head again, see http://aethelreadtheunread.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/the-west-lothian-question/
Harmison bounces out Hughes again ! The Aussies don’t like it up them. [This is an official ignoring tim comment]
I think this argument is very lame. Labour never worried about seeming ‘nasty’ when they attacked the Tories before the 97 election. They went for it. I don’t understand why it was seen as strong and commanding for Blair to call Major ‘weak weak weak’, but somehow Cameron is not allowed to tell it how it is. Brown is lying and it’s important this message is put across.
250. lol
251 - The Dutch Party Opposed womens suffrage and wants a Government based on the Bible.
But specifically this religious text
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgic_Confession
Oh, and they decided to let women be Members in …….2006
260 - You want to be careful using that cloak of wikipedia again, remember what happened last time!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2152/2233087919_7f25ae1389.jpg
255 - Bastard. Thats Ben Johnson speed
I demand the guy takes a drugs test
262. Good to see a sense of humour there tim!
Well played
255 Tim would have had a heart attack if the Conservatives had linked up with these groups.
262 B of the Bang tim, B of the Bang…
*Beting Post**Beting Post**Beting Post**Beting Post**Beting Post*
Sorry to interupt the usual mudslinging with betting information but there may still be one or two posters who like to have the odd bet and will be interested in the following opportunity to pick up a little free money.
Hills - Date of General Election - 2010 - odds 2/7
Betfair - same bet can be layed at odds of 2/11
The surprising thing about this is that you can have these bets to decent sums. For example, you could have £700 to £200 with Hills and lay £700 to £127 with Betfair. This gives you a neutral position if it’s 2010 and a win of £73 if it’s 2009. Payout day is Jan 1st 2010 at the latest so the notional interest costs are negligible.
Obviously you can adjust the relative amounts to suit your pocket and your portfolio but anyway you look at it, there’s stonking good value and free money to be had.
Why am I not taking it? Well, I have had £700 to £200 with Hills but I haven’t bothered with the covering Betfair bet because my portfolio covers me plenty good enough already if it is 2009. Personally I don’t think it will be, and the 2/7 with Hills looks like great value to me. Betfair seems to have the odds about right, imo.
Help yourselves, punters.
262 - Authoritarian, slanderous and verbally abusive.
Not bad going for a 12 word sentence.
264. As would David Cameron!!
Ah yes — Ben “I’ve never taken drugs in my life” Johnson.
266. Cheers Peter.
I still think there’s fantastic value in the next GE markets - particularly betting on a hung parliament.
I keep myself well-topped up on that one; albeit, for different reasons to Rod Crosby!
264 - I think Law and Justice will be good VFM over the next few months.
About five years ago I stayed on a Hotel Boat, on the Danube inj Budapest, and I do have to say If UKIP and the Slovak Nationalist were to launch an artillery assault from the Buda side, the shipping route would be vulnerable to a Farage barrage.
266 Who wants free money when there’s mud to be flung?
“The Dutch Party Opposed womens suffrage”
There was a good long rant doing the rounds on American rightwing sites, earlier this year, about how the US had been in decline ever since women got the vote.
269. Big, bad, bearded, bonking, butch Oscar.
“As all who know me will know” and “About five years ago I stayed on a Hotel Boat, on the Danube inj Budapest”. It’s good to see you are beginning to take my advice, given yesterday, about letting slip a few biographical details, tim. I could give you more helpful tips, but we have been told to ignore you.
4th swine flu death - in London this time:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8132570.stm
Serious underlying health problems again though. Aren’t people with serious underlying health problems the sort of people more likely to die of regular flu?
271. He would certainly be making a Pest of himself, that’s for sure.
How AIG FP brought down the world [aka it all started in Mayfair!]
Argument runs like this:
AIG Financial Products run by Joseph Cassano specialised in CDS insurance [Credit-Default Swaps] - without the CDS insurance the subprime-mortgage machine might never have been built.
AIG Financial Products worked at the heart of the Mayfair hedge-fund industry, sharing an impressive building with GLG Partners, London’s biggest independent hedge-fund manager.
http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/07/02/how-aig-fp-brought-down-the-world/
O/T
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8132642.stm
Shocking.
270 Thanks Casino, although I am embarrassed now to find Hills have shortened 2010 to 2/9.
There’s still a small margin but hardly enough to interest men of our standing.
Not sure what your GE betting position is but it sounds a bit like mine. I win big if the Tories do. I also win handily on a Hung Parliament. My worst result (disregarding the Black Swan outcome of a Labour Majority) would be a tiny Tory Majority. I’d barely win the price of a cup of coffee if that happened, but it’s a small risk and worth taking.
Maybe I can take out some ‘insurance’ bets nearer the date. No rush though. Gordon seems intent on leading his troops over the cliff and as long as he carries on, I have little to fear on the betting front.
269 - On the subject of drugs tests, have yo seen that the French Sports Minister is sledging Lance Armstrong.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jFa1M-4e6-Ibh2-coLreo0hIRcEQD996S9FG0
Jeremy Hunt or Ben Bradshaw should do the same and start offering outside various athletes in the run up to the Olympics.
278 - there was another one of those earlier in the year I think - and the delay was even longer; something like 6-8 years. The person had effectively decomposed and gelled with a sofa.
266 PtP
Interesting spot, although the downside is tying up a lot of cash. The Betfair odds seem to have shifted substantially in the past two or three weeks.
It sounds as though you don’t agree with your Putney namesake about the likelihood of an October election. I think you are probably right.
268 It would have been funny if the Conservatives in the EU Parliament had insisted on linking up to groups like LAOS. Speaking personally, I’ve no objection to linking to parties like Lega Nord, or Danske Folkspartei, both of which are governing parties in their respective countries, but I can see how Cameron might see things differently.
WRT the Slovaks, I think there is a Hungarian minority in Slovkia that this party doesn’t like, hence the comments about flattening Budapest.
The equivalent Hungarian party, Jobbik, doesn’t like Slovaks very much.
Someone asked about the BNP. They’re linked up to Front National, Jobbik, Vlaams Belang, FPO, and one or two others, but I don’t think they’ve reached the 25 MEP threshold.
281. Perfect candidates for postal votes in both cases, no?
282 Richard
You have to understand that I stand to win big if we do have an early election, so the opportunity to hedge at a decent price is very welcome.
Personally I don’t think a 2009 election is very likely at all. The Great Shadsy has 2010 at 1/6. I think he’s got it right, as usual.
I don’t understand Hills’ generosity and can only assume they have a badly balanced book which they are seeking to correct by offering bagain odds. Even the recently adjusted price of 2/9 looks worth taking to me, if you are starting from a level position. For somebody like me, it’s a gift.
282 Richard - Sorry, I should add that I operate a betting bank of about £20k, so tieing up a thousand or so for six months is no problem. I also feel the money is safer with William Hill than it would be with, say, Barclays.
From the thread header: “Brown might be largely a truthful man”
He would not know the truth if a rottweiler called Truth took a chunk out of his backside!
How Brown manages to get away for so long with this Son of the Manse rubbish i do not know! Brown rarely goes to church and the only thing Gordon seems to worship is power!
280:Ben Bradshaw runs scared from alan duncan…I don’t think he would.
What a disgrace that Sophie Raworth seems to be unaware of the correct pronunciation of Lieutenant Colonel. Shjameful.
283 - The UKIP and BNP groups should be shown a screening of this film, and have their reactions monitored.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Believer_(film)
We need more of this in Westminster
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8132413.stm
283 It puts the discussions between Marcia and Stewart D into perspective doesn’t it. I wonder if the Britain/England & Scotland & Wales is genetically capable of real civil war or revolution. If not why not? Perhaps that we are such a genetic ragbag that has successfully assimilated many races over many centuries? And what does that tell us about the ultimate likely success of the BNP in fomenting dissent, especially when we have a return to some sort of major opposition that their members feel comfortable voting for?
279. Indeed Peter. Just like mine!
As soon as there’s media speculation of Brown going again (prob around conference season) the hung parliament price may shorten in anticipation of a new Labour leader - whereupon I will bet on a Tory Majority again.
This see-saw effect has allowed me to strengthen both my positions over the last year or so. I made a lot during Mandelsons finest hour last month.
Long may it continue!
292 I should perhaps have said BNP supporters/voters rather than members
292. We’ve had at least two civil wars in England, and at least two revolutions. What on earth are you on about?
286. “Richard - Sorry, I should add that I operate a betting bank of about £20k”
Wow. Mine is only £1K
295 But not for the best part of four hundred years and against a backdrop of complete chaos across all of Europe.
296: And theres me worrying about putting a tenner on a punt….
292 - I wonder what % of Nick Griffin is Sub Saharan African?.
Perhaps Shadsy could set up a market.
I’d take 10/11 on >8%
245 Tim if in fact you knew anything about the EU and its member countries you would know that large parts of southern Slovakia were carved out of northern Hungary and indeed one city is split between the two. Southern Slovakia is full of ethnic Hungarians.
Is Brown hoping to score with this:
http://delivernothinglabourparty.blogspot.com/
4. “brown-backs-andy-murray-official.html”
Is this why we have been suddenly treated to photos of a pseud racketeer wishing to soak up powerful backhanders and give the British poor service and even lousier returns?
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/.a/6a00d83451b31c69e2011570b51993970c-300wi
297. The genetics haven’t changed much since the 17th century.
It’s also rather a sweeping statement to refer to ‘complete chaos across all of Europe.’ I think this theory needs a little work, don’t you?
299.
“what % of Nick Griffin is Sub Saharan..”
Give us a few shovels and a Landrover flight in a Hercules to Marrakesh and we could make it 95. Got to leave a little bit sweating in the sun for the scorpions to peck at.
299 If I remember the story correctly, the old Liberal Party in Grimsby (of whom there were even less then than there are Lib Dems there now) spent most of one of the 1974 General Election campaigns researcing the ethnic antecedents of the NF candidate in the town. And yes, he had some sub-Saharan ancestry. It didn’t win the Libs many votes, but it won them a few friends and a beer or two after the election.
Thinking about it - doesn’t the Old McBrownold video just show what happens whenever Brown is confronted by members of the public who aren’t Labour activists? This was a visit to a nursery school - just about the most harmless location a politician can visit - whether on the campaign trail or otherwise - and he made a complete and utter hash of it.
299 Tim, it would be ironic if it were rather more than he’d be comfortable with. There have been some fascinating analyses of genetic make up:
http://politicom.moldova.org/news/man-accused-of-racism-has-black-genes-79933-eng.html
It’s a sort of genetic version of criticising someones syntax or spelling on here and getting caught out.
4. Amused by the Brown comment “During a visit to Leeds, the PM has wished Andy Murray the best for tomorrow’s semi-final and said the whole country is behind him.”
301,well,brown has wished murray well,all I can say is ,hard luck andy,try again next year.
298. I go for the low-risk tax-free bets. Big money but good return.
1.2 might sound pants on Betfair, but when you consider it’s a 19% tax-free return on your money in less than a year - after Betfair have taken their commission - compared to (at best) 2.5% in a cash ISA at a bank (which is only marginally more safe) it’s a complete no brainer.
I’m also pouring funds into NOM (which is a more or less certainty) and balancing my book on Overall Tory Maj and Most Seats.
A Labour Majority is about as likely as Nick Griffin becoming Chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality.
303 Thanks for patronising me. I enjoyed it. Just some gentle whimsical musings from me - hadn’t realised they were against the rules. So really glad you cleared that up for me.
280. Talking of the tour de france any cyling geeks here breathless in anticipation of the start of le tour. From what I have heard Cadel Evans team haven’t put in a decent climber with him so he is gonna be on his own in the mountains again which sounds like an error. Can’t wait til this soft Wimbledon stuff is over and real athletes/drugfreaks take over
I’m also pouring funds into NOM (which is a more or less certainty)
A brave man..
305 - they are fascinating these people.
I posted something the other night about one of the Polish Law and Justice MEPs who so paranoid about people thinking he’s Jewish that he gets his todger out in bars to “prove” he isn’t
310. “I’m also pouring funds into NOM (which is a more or less certainty) ”
Hmm. Should have said “at least” a NOM is a certainty - that is, Labour losing their majority!
I’m pouring funds into a combination of outcomes with the assumption that Labour will (at absolute best) just lose their majority.
Haas making a game of this.
50/1 + a Roddick Haas final
309.
Yes, the only way Gordo can now secure a Murray victory will be a coup to install Podgy P as umpire on centre court. Listen out for those dulcid tones singing out: “New Balls please!”
312 - They probably couldnt find a decent climber willing to spend 3 weeks in Evans’ company.
313. God - it doesn’t take you long to pick up on the slips does it mate!!
I’m no Rod Crosby..
306. David - I just watched that for the first time and kept thinking Farmy - Farm!
I noticed the link of waugh’s blog!
I am surprised the children did not start crying or run away from him with that smile on his face!
318.
I heard John Major is betting on this outcome - and he had a lot of underdog experience when the covers were off.
#276 David - generally seasonal flu kills off older people with UHC, and quite possibly due to their ages a descision is made not to actively treat the influenza/complications.
There’s a list on a US/Canada health blog breaking down their 170+ deaths and lists if there were any UHC at the time or not. From what I recall a majority were reported with UHC, but a not insignificant number of young people were on the list where there were no reports of UHC.
Median age of deaths in the US I think is 37 and median age for hospitalisation is 19.
They are running 170 deaths on a confirmed case count of 33,902 which is likely to be 1 million+ total cases.
313. This is a merciless forum.
312. “313″ - I meant “315″. FFS - what is wrong with me today?
Another near certainty: Sean T is reading this blog (as we speak) and, deep-down, desperately wants to post but his sense of pride is preventing him from doing so. He doesn’t want other posters to have the satisfaction of teasing him about his “I’m leaving for good” comments when he comes back and demanding an apology.
Nevertheless, Sean T knows he was naughty, knows he wants to come back, knows we want him to come back and knows all will be forgiven…
I give it less than a week.
Noone ever leaves pb.com.
309 - Perhaps Griffin should have all BNP members DNA tested, he’d be able to blame their criminal records on their 16% African components
288…i assume that you have some Barclay’s “put options” lurking within your portfolio?
324 - interesting, thanks. That said, if we’re looking at a likely million total cases, and less than 200 deaths; doesn’t that compute to a death rate of around 1 in 5000. I’m not saying that’s not serious or anything - any death is. But I’m reasonably sure that makes it less potent than seasonal flu…
325 No. There are people on here who are merciless.
However, the core point stands. You have Slovaks and Hungarians threatening to grind each other into the ground through the vehicle of political parties in the EP. We on the other hand, have the BNP as our extremists who have nasty views in the opinion of the majority (Tim et al don’t even think of getting back into the definition of that word) but aren’t threatening to flatten Bradford.
At the same time there is a real sense that if Scotland voted for independence it would be accommodated with all due calm and respect.
I wonder why that is? Is it something in our genes or is it that we sorted out our civil wars and revoltions early doors? Perhaps we take out our aggression beyond our own boundaries? Or perhaps our aggression is aligned with sporting teams now rather than political ideas?
I haven’t a clue what the answer is, but it would be fascinating to try to find out.
326 - He definitely thinks it was the Sub Saharan bit of him that was to blame for his behaviour.
266, 279 Well spotted PtP, free money is always welcome. A value bet imho is the date for Brown leaving office. The hot favourite at around 1.3/1 on Betfair is, not surprisingly, Q2 2010 to coincide with the likely GE date. However, I think Q3 2010, could be a winner as it is likely to take around 6-8 weeks to organise and conduct an election for his successor which could just continue therefore into early July. The current offer price for this quarter is approx 7/1 and there’s not much on offer, but a little patience brings rewards as I have recently found takers at around the 8/1 mark.
Federer takes 1st set in tie break - which Haas was actually a little rubbish in.
I think i missed it. What happened with SeanT this time?
330. Still struggling to see your point. The Slovaks managed a perfectly amicable divorce from the Czechs in 1993. Civilisation doesn’t end at Dover.
334. ditto….sounds entertaining
Any chance of McDoom catching swine flu and dying of underlying complications (like a hard pressed NHS worker holding a pillow over his face) before Andy Murray takes to Centre Court?
Probably not so maybe we will see the 3rd Smithson rule created today.
“Even Gordon Brown wishing someone good luck must work once a year”
“Come on Andy” you potentially great/mediocre Scottish/British/Celtic/european/Northern Hemisphere resident sporting hero!! (delete as appropriate)
336. I thought it amusing!
326.
“Sean T knows he was naughty, knows he wants to come back, knows we want him to come back and knows all will be forgiven…”
You suggesting Sean T is really (totally deluded) Tony Bliar?
337. Murray won’t beat Federer. Not this year, anyway.
330.
“There are people on here who are merciless.”
I’ve long suspected that the Morris Dancer posts on here were undercover Ming ing.
335 Purely that there are many parts of the world, not least Europe, where violent differences are expressed through political parties. You could argue it has even been the case in NI (which is why I didn’t refer to the UK to start with). I don’t see that happening in England, Scotland or Wales and I wonder why. We don’t even see much in the way of extremist parties most of the time.
340.
No, but Roddick just might.
330 - Have you ever heard of Northern Ireland?!
340 Perhaps we could get Gordo actually to shake hands with Federer, that might even things up a bit
344 see 342 - I deliberately didn’t include NI in the original post
334/336. He lost his temper a couple of sites ago when Morus reprimanded him for being rude to Robert (Mike’s son) who runs and maintains the site.
Sean T left with a “I don’t care” and “sod you all” sentiment. He said words to the effect of “so long geeks”.
I can’t be bothered searching for it but it was probably on the Mon/Tues evening thread?
95. What a load of rubbish.
345
There is a story of the eccentric, eyepatch-wearing film director Andre de Toth being kidnapped by the PLO or somesuch because he looked so much like Israeli politician Moshe Dayan. He too had a simple way of proving to them he wasn’t Jewish.
340 GIN i was just thinking of this afternoon!! One step at a time.
343 - hasn’t Federer beaten Roddick every single time they have met at Wimbledon?
346 - So except for the part of the country where people have been blowing each other to bits recently, the UK is much more civilised than some parts of Eastern Europe where there are political parties that are nasty about each other. Interesting.
347. *SIGH*. A couple of NIGHTS ago. NIGHTS Casino. NIGHTS!
Not SITES FFS.
I’m a dozy d1ckhead today!
347 his tweets that afternoon were many and ’surreal’ with the occassional mention of Public Houses
342. Well in the one area of the UK where there is a major unresolved ethnic faultline, we do indeed have political parties that have been mixed up in violence, as you rightly note.
And arguably these parties are rather worse than the faintly ridiculous Slovak National Party or their equivalents in Hungary, as they have actually been involved in killing lots of people rather than just blustering.
In the rest of the UK we don’t have these parties, but nor do they have them in many other European countries.
354 I miss SeanT’s rants - some of them were very funny…
353 BRITAIN is not an exteme kind of place - why?
334 – Gin, you didn’t miss much. SeanT said he was leaving on a jet plane, didn’t know when he’d be back again and that he hated to go. He then asked Casino Royale to wait for him and hold him like you’ll never let me go.
All rather embarrassing really, I think he’d been drinking.
347 What was even more amusing was the clip somebody found of SeanT being interviewed on Spanish TV about his Tom Knox book. He was terribly polite and well mannered, thoughtful, sensitive and caring. As somebody pointed out, he was even wearing a cricifix, rather than the shrunken head of a new-born baby as we would all expect.
I really must get round to buying his book one day…..
“Milibanana’s latest blunder. India is too rich, er, poor.”
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/07/milibananas-latest-blunder-india-is-too-rich-er-poor.html
356 Which suggests that in Britain we don’t have unresolved ethnic fault lines - how have we managed that and how do we manage to have a Scots nationalist movement without an unresolved ethnic fault line?
356 Which suggests that in Britain we don’t have unresolved ethnic fault lines - how have we managed that and how do we manage to have a Scots nationalist movement without an unresolved ethnic fault line?
326
A bit like ‘Hotel California’…
Oh damn..!
358. Why isn’t Denmark? Or Sweden? Or the Czech Republic? Or Portugal? Or Switzerland? Or Finland? Or Norway?
332 PfP
That’s interesting. I’d like to know a bit more about the mechanics of how the ’step down’ works. My impression was that he would stand down pretty much straight away and the Deputy would take over until an election is held, but I could be wrong.
Maybe we need Henry G or Rod Crosby’s help here.
I see. Just the usual e-drama then!
Hopefully he’ll be back soon. His rants often give me a few laughs.
326 - pb.com = Hotel California
This may have been posted earlier but here it is anyway. Doesn’t appear to be any voting intention though;
http://page.politicshome.com/uk/what_difference_will_the_economy_make_at_the_next_election%3F.html
OK, before we make meta-Jesus cry, a couple of things:
FIRSTLY: SeanT will be back, never fear. It might take a while, but nobody ever truly leaves PB.com, and SeanT knows that he has an adoring audience here, so will be back soon.
SECONDLY: I’m just marking up tim’s guest article, which will be up later this afternoon. He is writing on Cameron and the expenses crisis: the article has been ok’d by OGH, so it goes ahead after much anticipation and public demand.
As a rule, our main articles on PB.com tend to try and be impartial - however, we do sometimes relax that requirement for guest articles (Nick Palmer MP wrote on why people would still vote Labour) especially if they are cutting against the mainstream of the comments.
The invitation to any and all of you to submit is open whilst Mike is away. Send them to me and Double Carpet at the usual email addresses.
360 I suspect it was references to that TV interview which upset Sean T most. He was devastated that we might think he is something other than a foul mouthed, oath emitting, ranting, right wing nuttar.
Of course we all thought it was a doppleganger becauase he must be on a beach somewhere in Thailand inflicting his reputed sexual prowess on some grateful young maiden of easy virtue while thinking up the theme of his next sex fuelled bonkbuster.
Sean T hurry and come back. We miss your Kelvin MacKenziesque rants
212 The old McDoom had a farm video is an absolute classic. Whats the old refrain, never appear with animals or children.
Gordon Brown is just lamentable, what an awful PM he is, has there ever been a worse one?
Reposted here for those who havent yet seen it.
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/07/gordons-redwood-moment.html
370. Tim’s doing a guest article? That should be fun!
But why does the FYR?
Casino Royale
Just to round out the picture (and so’s nobody has any false impression), only £5k of that £20k is allocated to political betting. The other £15k is devoted £5k to steeplechasing, £5k to hurdling and £5k to sundry other.
I put the £20k to one side four years ago when I was last made redundant, thinking that if I lost it, it would be sad but not catastrophic. I still have it, and it has returned an average of about £10k per year. Better than your average ISA, no? And lots more fun!
It’s why I have not had to take a regular job since 2005 and why I can afford to spend so much time on PB. Strongly recommended!
:)
375. I’ve been leaked a copy of tim’s article! LOL!:
All work and no play makes tim a dull boy
All work and no play makes tim a dull boy
All work and no play makes tim a dull boy
All work and no play makes tim a dull boy
All work and no play makes tim a dull boy
All work and no play makes tim a dull boy
All work and no play makes tim a dull boy
All work and no play makes tim a dull boy
All work and no play makes tim a dull boy
All work and no play makes tim a dull boy
All work and no play makes tim a dull boy
All work and no play makes tim a dull boy
All work and no play makes tim a dull boy
373.
Probably a Nursery Rhyme
365 But why does FYR and why, of the countries you list have at least 3 had violent upheavals in the last century?
To frame a question from the other direction - what drives peaceable countries to change that nature and why?
372. Oh dear! Once again it makes you wonder how on earth Labour will ever get through a general election campaign with the Clunking One!
More jack-bootery from Labour
Balls orders inquiry into parents who try to get their kids into the ‘wrong’ school.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8130541.stm
345.
“Perhaps we could get Gordo actually to shake hands with Federer”
or, more topically, give him the Gordo Tory kiss of death?
370. Awesome….I look forward to the apoplexy of rage and abuse that the article will bring. I like Tim and think he adds to the site, it is a shame that he uses repetitive smears so much but a lot of his tips seem sound.
He is a bit like a male snowflake5, but with more of a sense of humour.
376.
“HERE’S TIMMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
359.
“SeanT said he was leaving on a jet plane, didn’t know when he’d be back again”
Old hit for the Nude Seekers?
370 Morus - re tim’s article (which I’m looking forward to reading), may I respectfully suggest that you make it very clear that any views are his and not ‘editorial’ views of PB.com?
385 and turn all the server capacity up to 11
352.
” hasn’t Federer beaten Roddick every single time they have met at Wimbledon”
I think so - but Federer used to have an equally strong record against Nadal. And this is the meaner leaner Roddick, for whom SW19 will be screaming “Come on Andy!!” shortly.
378. Sorry lost interest now…too vague, too amorphous.
196 - re Bradshaws comments…. and Labour are complaining about the tories?????
#329 Yes would agree on those numbers - on it’s current trajectory I don’t expect it to be worse than seasonal flu.
That said the major difference with season flu will be the median age of deaths.
384 wasnt it peter paul and mary?
That’s me off for the rest of the month, then.
390 - John Denver
I am looking forward to reading Tim’s thread. He irritates the arse of me most of the time but he is not stupid and I sometimes think he just likes to wind up the rest of us.
257. Excellent article and explained the dilemma perfectly. Its just a case of when its resolved.
“PB.com tend to try and be impartial - however, we do sometimes relax that requirement.” “He is writing on Cameron and the expenses crisis.” Ominous…
I feel a game of Word Bingo is in order. What are the chances of Eton being mentioned 22 times and Brown, Darling, Blears, Smith et al exactly zero?
Looking in for a break, I see a few posts pointed at me:
- GeoffH and an Irish analogy: I don’t especially want to warm over the issue, but the offence that was caused was that it was hard on the heels of the death of Chinese cockle-fishers, and the joke was specifically at their expense. I thought it upsetting, you might have thought otherwise, but when the Mirror asked me I didn’t see any reason not to say so.Michael Howard, not a sensitive soul, suspended the MP from the party until she (sort of) apologised.
- A couple posters disinter things I’ve said about them - basically I try not to be rude, but over years of posting I don’t always manage it. Sorry! I will say that I thought Creatures of the Night was a half-affectionate phrase we used to use about late-night ranters, but I’m soft on creatures anyway - I remember when I first read “the Secnd Coming” I thought the idea of a great beast shambling towards Jerusalem sounded rather nice. On closer reading there appeared to be a hint of criticism.
- jsfl - you seem to interpet my comment of ‘yuk’ over some Labour leaflets over the years as more generalised than it was. Basically I’ve been helping in elections for 40 years and have seen thousands of leaflets from all parties. Some Labour ones were below the belt, and so were some of the other parties’ leaflets - on the whole, the LibDems are the worst offenders. However, the belief that th eConservatives are more virtuous than Labour on this is one I don’t share.
Just found this funny article from Cracked. It’s completely off topic but as the thread must be nearing the end and I thought some people may enjoy it here is a snippet:
http://www.cracked.com/article_16765_5-ways-stop-trolls-from-killing-internet.html
Robot9000:
This is a program invented by Randall Monroe, the XKCD webcomic guy that requires every post to be unique. If someone types “First!”, no other post can ever consist of just that.
396 Oi, Nick - I claim authorship of the original ‘Creatures Of The Night’!
It was aimed at just-back-from-the-pub-nutters, and was meant to be gently mocking. Surely nobody takes offence?
Think you will find the people who want to blow each other up in NI aren’t English, where if NI ever did become independent, there would be a bigger cheer than if Scotland and Wales buggered off at the same time!
280. Nice set of neighbours, and some clown says its a close knit community.
396. NPMP What have I done or said to warrant a post aimed at me? I said nothing about your role in unveiling a tasteless joke.
Leaving on a jet plane - best version is by the Box Tops
The most important thing about Our Glorious Leader’s Farmy-farm video isn’t really the utter lack of emotion. We already know he’s useless anyway.
No, what it provides, is documentary proof that he is a complete ditherer. He’s asked at the beginning to choose the first animal. He actually asks “Errr… which one… which one shall I pick? Errrr. We’d better start with the errm… errmm…. (dither dither dither)” at which point the mum on his left gets him to hurry up, and he settles on the horse.
A Prime Minister is there to take decisions. And here he is, unable to even make a decision about which animal to sing about!
403 I confess that I had to turn it off after the first verse - it was too much to bear.
He just looked so completely weird. I know it’s impossible to sit on the floor in a suit without looking stupid but why didn’t he take his jacket off?!??!
I’d hate to see him open an animal sanctury.
395.
Personally I hope it has been carefully vetted by Morus, because if, as expected it is going to be totally Partisan ! Anyway why give him the time of day when all he goes on about is Cameron…. Can’t Morus appreciate we are sick to death of him without the need to put his article up in big flashing lights. I will not be commenting. I will have 24hours off just so I don’t have to see it.
*** Betting Post ***From Wm Hill:
OSBORNE CHANCELLOR ODDS ON DRIFT
WITH GEORGE Osborne facing an expenses investigation, William Hill have lengthened the odds about him becoming the next Chancellor from odds-on favourite to second favourite.
Hills have cut former second favourite Philip Hammond from 2/1 to 11/10 favourite, while Osborne has been lengthened from 4/6 to 5/4.
‘An investigation by ther Parliamentary Standards Watchdog is hardly likely to enhance Mr Osborne’s claims to the role of Chancellor’ said Hill’s spokesman Graham Sharpe.
Hills also offer 10/1 Ed Balls; 14/1Ken Clarke; 20/1 Vince Cable; 25 Liam Byrne; 33/1 William Hague.
Looks like an over-reaction to me,
404- Didn’t they already show that in a Yes Minister episode!
402. Weird that “Leaving on a Jet Plane” and NI come up in near-consecutive posts. Peter Taylor in “Brits” mentions that the Catholic girls sang that to soldiers leaving from their first Tour of Duty in 1969 or so.
407 They did. Jim IIRC refused to have his photo taken with a donkey, and then read out the wrong speech.
357. Plato, however many were quite the opposite , his ego will bring him back in any case.
405.
“I will have 24hours off just so I don’t have to see it.”
He doth protest too much. You can con some of the people some of the time, tim.
370/376. I have a “tim bingo” card ready!
Here are the words I will be looking for:
Eton
Bullingdon Club
Wealthiest Estates
Inheritance Tax
Latvia
Law & Justice
Herd
I get a point for every one he manages to slip past the radar into the article.
Funnily enough, I’m quite curious to see what he comes up with.
402
Impromptu version from the film ‘Armageddon’
404.
“he is, unable to even make a decision about which animal to sing about!”
Should have chosen the chipmunk!!
410- And yet I still have more respect for Jim Hacker than Gordon Brown
413.
“I’m quite curious to see what he comes up with.”
GideO’s excuse for heading off to Deripaska’s yacht berth with Mandy?
413 You forgot -
Hurd
Serbia
MMR
Liverpool
Michael Howard
Nadine Dorries
Wiggin
This article could be a hoot.
404: He chose a horse?? Who choses a horse to start off Old MacDonald? You have to go with the sheep or pig option as they have the best noises!!
*** Betting Post ***Another Wm Hill press release - the interesting part is the Greens vs LibDems (which I can’t see on the website):
Greens odds-on to out-vote Lib-Dems, but:
TORIES ODDS ON FOR NORWICH NORTH
WILLIAM HILL have installed the Conservatives as 1/6 favourites to win the imminent Norwich North by-election, with Labour quoted at 5/1; the Greens and Lib Dems both 16/1 and UKIP 66/1.
‘Despite Labour’s 5000plus majority, we think the fact that an MP embroiled in the expenses scandal has stood down here will make it very difficult for them to retain the seat’ said William Hill spokesman Graham Sharpe.
Hills make the Greens 8/11 to finish ahead of the Lib-Dems, who are Even money to do vice-versa; while the Greens are 6/1 to finish ahead of Labour who are 1/12 to beat them.
407. Ozzy didn’t make the front page of any newspaper today - its a non story.
416 Me too! My favourite episode is The Bishop’s Gambit by a nose.
417 What is the ‘joke’ about GideO ?
419. Well,
Sheep = Labour backbenchers
Pigs = Labour frontbenchers
Chicken = G. Brown
Doesn’t leave much
I wonder if the BBC will be as keen to show Gordo’s farmy farm video on the news as they were of the whelk stall photo opportinity?
423 – George Osborne’s first name is Gideon, dropping the ‘N’ makes it highly amusing for some, don’t ask me why.
Murray on shortly. Haas been.
426 Thanks SSC
And OT - some cute animal photos
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthpicturegalleries/5732428/Animals-keeping-cool-with-ice-lollies-in-the-summer-heat.html
424: Yeah..but horse is rubbish! What do you do…Neigh-neigh here, neigh-neigh there…or the even better ‘Whinney-Whinney’…
Oh Brown doing a ‘whinney-whinney’ whilst tossing his head from side to side….what a site that would be.
Mind you,….he’s probably used to it, what with his rocking horse
New Thread. Enjoy it.
Morus
Here’s my Tim’s Bingo Word Card,I’m feeling lucky
Cameron
George Osborne
Nadine Dorries
MMR
Eton
Bullingdon Club
George Osborne
Wealthiest Estates
Inheritance Tax
George Osborne
Latvia
George Osborne
Herd
[329] - “I’m not saying that’s not serious or anything..”
It is possible that we have been lucky with this virus, and it’s simply not that fatal.
However, I’d caution against a rush to judgement, because you wouldn’t expect a huge spike in fatalities in the northern hemisphere summer anyway. Indeed, many experts were expecting the flu to “disappear” during the summer months and then re-emerge during the autumn. From that perspective the progress of the virus has been worse than might otherwise have been the case.
We will find out one way or another in the autumn, until then we have to wait [and prepare].
Tim’s Bingo Word Card
It started in America
Fairness
Difficult choices
Reproiritising
10 percent
Do nothing
Global
132- The honourable member for Broxtowe admits he grassed on a Tory MP who told a racist joke. Yet how does he account for the racist policies he supports? A united States of Europe that has the effect of being a white supremist project that gives (mainly white) Europeans an unfair trading playing field, suppressing billions of non-whites, who are suffering more as a result and if they are lucky they are kept down as slaves in sweatshop conditions in order to compete. Immigration laws that allow uncontrolled access to millions of white Polish citizens, but puts up increasingly more barriers against Bronze-skinned Middle Eastern Muslims and Black Africans. Islamophobia propogated by the British and American governments in order to help justify a war waged against Islamic nations based on a pack of lies and yet not even an apology after over one million deaths. Rendition of innocent non-whites who have been tortured and incarcerated for years without charges or basic rights. Frankly the holier-than-thou approach doesn’t wash. It is time to see some humility.