Should Labour/The Guardian have taken a lesson from Guido?
July 10th, 2009
Where does “Hackergate” go now?
One of the key lessons so well demonstrated in April by Paul Staines (AKA Guido), with his “Smeargate” emails is that if you want a story to continue to make the headlines then the news machine needs feeding little by little.
You don’t give them all the goodies all at once which I think might have happened to the Guardian’s “Hackergate revelations”. It’s doing its best this morning to keep the story going but there isn’t really that much else to say.
This has been amplified by last night’s decision by Scotland Yard that there should be no further investigation into what originally happened. That surely kills stone dead the main Guardian point that “two or three thousand” public figures were targeted by the hacking operation.
Another lesson from Guido, surely, is let the story get bigger of its own accord. In this case anything less than 2,000 now makes it look as though there was an initial exaggeration.
A further challenge facing the Labour spin machine - if they are indeed trying to drive the story - is that their main target, Tory PR boss, Andy Coulson, is not a house-hold name in the way that Alistair Campbell was and is. Few people outside the Westminster village have even heard of him.
For like in the Clive Anderson saying “You can be a famous poisoner or a successful poisoner, but not both” Coulson has never seen it as his job to have a public profile. This is surely helping his position today. Things started to go wrong for Campbell, it will be recalled, when HE became the story.
Unless there are new revelations or something comes out that sticks something we didn’t know already to Coulson then it’s hard to see it going much beyond next week. The Guardian seems to be trying to widen it to the whole way that the media operates which suggests that they have not got anything new on the ex-NOTW editor.
Mike Smithson
MessageSpace Advertising
First! Now I’m going to sleep! Good night again.
Home?
I suspect there is a story about how the media operates generally and the need for improvements but then thats a story the media aren’t likely to be keen to pursue. Therein lies the problem on several fronts!
Coulson still has to face a Commons enquiry although he ought to come through that reasonably well. Nick Robinson is saying there will be calls for an independent investigation into the police’s handling of the affair. Surely this won’t be permitted as it will bring the Met into further disrepute.
Why does Coulson have to go before the Commons enquiry ?
Zesde?
Were Labour behind the Guardian article or just the Guardian trying to get one over Murdoch? If nothing much comes from the enquiry and the police aren’t interested then you wonder if Labour have stopped it on behalf of Murdoch. I cannot believe Brown would be stupid enough to declare war with Murdoch as he would only lose.
4 The Met into further disrepute? The Guardian reports “it was one of Yates’s own very senior colleagues, speaking directly to the Guardian, who told us that the News of the World as a paper had been involved in hacking “thousands” of phones. That estimate was supported by a second, separate source who had had access to the Scotland Yard inquiry and who told us it involved “two or three thousand” phones.”
The genesis of this story is interesting because it has bearing on where it is going. Why 2 and a half years after Mr Goodman was convicted, with nothing new to bring it back to life has there suddenly been this new excitement? Was it as a journalist acting off his own bat and investigating? was it a senior policeman (perhaps one with anti press/anti Tory motives)? Is it anti-Murdoch or anti-Tory?
The way figures across Labour and the Lib Dems leapt on the Coulson angle has made it very political but if the practice was widespread it’s likely that in fact the greatest the damage will be to News International, to senior NI executives and possibly to other newspapers (doubt very much that it was only the NoW that is implicated).
If this was posted here, I missed it:
http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Lib-Dem-blow-as-candidate.5442425.jp
“it was one of Yates’s own very senior colleagues” … now, what was the name of the disgraced officer who was forced to resign as assistant commissioner and was replaced by our very own Yates of the Yard? I’ve forgotten. Remind me - quick!
Very interesting to hear how the “hacked” the voicemail. Just dialled the number and when it went through to voice mail just entered the same default pin number used on EVERY mailbox unless changed to gain access.
Hardly the work of a master criminal and virtually impossible to prove who was responsible on a criminal basis unless they create other evidence as happened with the conviction. This is why the police are not taking it further.
There must, of course, be an investigation into the fact that a very senior police officer is feeding the Guardian with details of a three-and-a-half year old police investigation.
In return for what?
11 Maybe someone familiar with the law can say, but if a tabloid hack simply went into the mailbox, had a listen, didn’t record it, maybe wrote down some notes - is that actually a crime? It is equivalent to going into someone’s house because the door is wide open. It might be trespass in the civil courts - although there wouldn’t be any case if there wasn’t any damage - but for it to be a criminal matter there would have to be a demonstrable intent eg to nick the contents.
I imagine in this day and age there is a law against cyber-trespass - but if not, or if its scope is uncertain, perhaps the truth is that all the police can do is to remind phone users “don’t leave your doors wide open!”
Anyone in the public eye is always going to attract snoopers. Everyone knows to shred sensitive documents before putting them in the recycling. But when it takes less than a minute to change the default settings on your phone’s mailbox to give you a protection that would stop all casual nosiness, then sorry, my sympathy has got better things to be doing.
So the expenses cheats in the cabinet stay in position and so does Coulson.
A perfect result for both Labour and the Lib Dems.
9 What a rigorous selection procedure the LibDems must have:
“There are unconfirmed reports Mr Currie did not have the total support of local party members, with 14 reportedly voting against him at the selection meeting, even though he was the only choice.”
What a boring story. It may provide titillation to some, with various stupid celebs moaning that they may or may not have had their “public” voicemails listened to.
Can’t we have a poll or something?
And it seems that another of Safe Seats Dave’s Expenses Cheats will survive.
Sir John Major has privately condemned the excessive expenses claims of the Tory MP who inherited his safe seat.
The former Prime Minister has told friends that he regards the behaviour of Jonathan Djanogly as ‘greedy’ and ‘inappropriate’.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198723/The-Millionaire-Tory-au-pair-25-000-repaid-expenses-John-Major-condemns-greedy-successor-Tory-anger-grows-huge-expenses-claim.html
He’s got a safe seat so it doesn’t matter,
17 - tim
What makes you say that? There are plenty of safe seats up for grabs at the moment, with a fair few old bed blockers given the push. Try a different line.
tim @ 14
So the expenses cheats in the cabinet stay in position and so does Coulson.
Perhaps you meant to say Shadow Cabinet? Oh well, in Office but not in power does just about sum up your lot.
18 - Hopefully there will be more.
Dave will not act to clean his party though.
On the NOTW story there will now be a stream of civil action from those who were hacked.
The sniff of the £700,000 pay out to Gordon Taylor will keep this alive.
The first step will be to get the list of names in the Taylor case “unsealed” by the High Court, hopefully Cameron will keep Coulson in place until then
19 - Ha ha..
A fresh start with Maude and Duncan.
20 “On the NOTW story there will now be a stream of civil action from those who were hacked.”
Really? People are going to want to have their tawdry affairs dragged through the courts, are they? Especially when they are going to be made to look like muppets for not taking the most rudimentary of precautions to keep themselves safe.
We can look forward to some bloke you’ve never heard of from a boy band you can’t recall ever releasing a single getting all het up about a greasy hack listening to his messages from someone who got thrown out of the Big Brother house on the third day. Wow. And it was supposed to be about delivering Coulson’s scalp on a silver platter.
EPIC FAIL….
20 - I wouldn’t mind at all if there were more safe seats open to new blood. Perhaps we could then have more open primaries like the one that will decide a successor to Anthony Steen in Totnes.
20 - Who will they sue? They may know SOMEONE hacked the voicemail but they cannot prove it was the NOTW otherwise there would have been a criminal prosecution.
Gordon Taylor is the last person anyone would feel sorry for, that fat pig earns nearly a million a year as a union rep just because his players do!!! I guess thats Labour for you, not what you do but who you know!
I wonder whether the News of the World or Sunday Times have a story in waiting that will move the spotlight from their misbehaviour - the Guardian is pushing this like anything and as the house paper of the commenteriat & BBC that means it gets plenty of airtime but there isn’t much substance, so story has to be about Coulson to keep it going. The Met have said there’s nothing to investigate, the DPP will most likely report the same, the Guardian obviously hopes for civil prosecutions but unless there is evidence a story was based on bugged calls legal advice would probably be to save the cash that bringing a case would cost.
If something more newsworthy pops up in the Sundays the caravanserai may well decamp to next oasis of news and Coulson could survive.
Noted last night that a few questioned Nick Robinson outside CCHQ rather than at G8 - rather than bias it seemed to me to show the right judgement on importance of the story; Gordon Brown at G8 isn’t one, what he says or G8 say isn’t particularly newsworthy anymore, but something affecting Cameron definitely is. The press and pubic have written Brown off.
15 I can help you this time, MM. If there is only one candidate, as it says in the article, a fictional candidate, called RON (reopen nominations) is added. To ensure local members have a choice. And, yes, it IS a rigorous selection procedure. This, of course, is fairly unusual.
Marquee Mark@13:
IANAL, but on the face of it what you’re describing would sound like “Unauthorised access to computer material”:
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if—
(a) he causes a computer to perform any function with intent to secure access to any program or data held in any computer;
(b) the access he intends to secure is unauthorised; and
(c) he knows at the time when he causes the computer to perform the function that that is the case.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1990/ukpga_19900018_en_1#pb1-l1g1
22 - damaged and djangling is the perfect result.
Yay! It has taken some time, but Gordon has at last found someone who looks even more dishevelled than he does! Meeting with Gadaffi….
27 But they are using a phone to phone a phone. Is a phone now a “computer”? I know they have plenty functions - a camera and suchlike - but really - “a computer”?
Huhne on Sky doing his “Look How Pompous I Can Be” routine….
O/T
Looks like we have a date for that expected climb-down on Trident - spring 2010.
25. He should have been outside News International. That was the bias accusation.
14 Oh Dear Tim, so eager to smear, so eager to repetitively post, you smeared your own….and all before 7am.
9 LondonStatto - this one is better:
http://richardwillisuk.wordpress.com/2009/07/09/lib-dem-ppc-blasts-her-own-party%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cbullsht%e2%80%9d
26. RON is identical to ‘No’ in a vote to (re-)select a candidate, which I understood all the major parties do as a matter of course at some time between elections.
On a smaller scale, my local party branch selected a candidate for next year’s local elections last month. Even though he was the only candidate, we still had a vote as to whether or not to select him. Had we voted no, nominations would have been reopened (although in fact he was selected unanimously). This is normal practice.
32 - More like Brown wanting to be invited to Obama’s party and being seen as a global statesman. Another one of his Socialist objectives ticked off with getting rid of nuclear weapons.
Still at least we can rely on conventional weapons that the money is going to instead….. right?
Am I missing something with all this politically inspired nonsense:
People call mobiles of people and those who have been so unconcerned about their privacy as to change the network default PIN thus allow anyone who goes in to their vmail to potentially listen to messages.
It isn’t exactly James Bond is it.
34 - Another of Daves finest seems to have survived
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5791636/Jonathan-Djanogly-defends-his-expense-claims-to-party-supporters.html
26 Tim13, thanks for that. Sounds like RON ran quite a good campaign up there!
I wonder if he need much persuading?
Do run, Ron. Ron - do. DO run, Ron!!
38 - One Guy got a £700,000 in a confidential settlement so News International must be keen to keep schtum.
34. tim’s eagerness is amazing. I thought after yesterday’s orgy he would be totally spent, but understandably his contributions this morning have been a bit limp…
Remember that a big user of the “services” was the Guardian’s stable-mate the Observer. How come the paper is not looking at that?
Marquee Mark@30 - Not sure if it makes any difference, but my image of this was that the messages were stored on a central server somewhere and you’d dial in, authenticate yourself using the password number and it would play you the messages. That would be pretty much the same as what happens when you put your password into a system to get your e-mail, except that the messages are in the form of voice recordings rather than text.
But yes, if your phone is doing things like checking passwords, I’d say that it’s a computer system, logically at least. No idea if the courts would see things that way; presumably you’d have to look at the case law to find out how far the courts have been willing to go in practice in applying this insanely vague law.
42. Just feel sorry for him. To dedicate your life to bitterly smearing on an internet messageboard is quite pitiful really.
43 because Andy Coulson had no dealings with them and this is about Labour relaunch number 598/operation slightly embarass Dave, and nothing more.
Guardian shilling for their Labour masters once again and abasing themselves on the altar of absurdity.
Also the top user of the “services” by far was the Daily Mail - run by Gord’s mate Lord Dacre. Again why no focus on that?
Tittle tattle.
We have the country’s finances in ruins with the PSBR spiralling out of control, a government frozen in the headlights for 12 months only focussed on its election campaign, a Parliament full of nearly-dead ex MP’s, UK private pensions pillaged and in their death throes (cue flawed personal accounts), unfunded public sector pension liabilities running in to hundreds of billions, a stockmarket back where it was 10 years ago & redundancies across the country at record rates.
Actually, let’s stick with this froth the rest is too depressing for words.
re 41. How do we know that Tim about the size of the settlement? The recipients of such awards will be under such tight gagging clauses that will ensure they stay silent.
Given the “over-selling” of the 2000 - 3000 celebs being involved how do we know that that the scale of damages is also not being over-sold.
The real killer in the Yates statement was on those numbers.
47 - Presumably because News International has paid out £1m in damages, and attempted to keep it secret.
45. Technically, tim’s not smearing because he’s reporting events that have happened or reporting of them.
However - tim - we get your message. You don’t need to post it, or a variant of it, every few minutes.
51 - OK.
I was going to reply to 49.
Suffice to say this story will not be over by next week.
51. The false interpretation given alongside the reports in many cases is a smear surely?
44 Edmund, you can see why the police may have felt they have gone as far as practicable in “applying this insanely vague law”!
I blame the quality of legislative scrutiny by our politicians…
Anyone trying to put real pressure on Coulson has first to penetrate the formidable defences of the Met and News International. And then find some new evidence in an area where it is technically difficult to obtain and where the events happened years ago.
Did I misunderstand something, or has the ghost of Keir Hardie been enlisted to overcome these factors? Presumably he will give his findings in HoC Committee Room 9 3/4.
49 The great bulk of such large settlement numbers will be paying off legal fees anyway.
48 - You forgot to add the soldiers dying in a pointless war in Afghanistan.
51. Don’t be unfair David, that’s his job
The problem with this story is that, ats it core, its not really about politics or is it a political one.
Worth a try though lads eh.
Headless chickens. Grabbing at straws. Political Pygmies.
Politicians are showing they have as much common sense as an imbecile.
Huume of the Liberal Democrats -who yesterday made it OFFICIAL LibDem policy that ONE IS GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT! should resign immediately. BUT resignation is for everyone else and certainly not HONOURABLE! members?
The Labour Party are desperate to hurt the Tories and their attempts to link this with McBride WHO WAS CAUGHT HOOK LINE AND SINKER by Guido is quite, quite ridiculous. BUT it does show that they do not care what McBride did and will do the same again if they could.
Politics and Politicians are rotten and we need a complete clean sweep.
Bring on the General Election and the demise of two Parties The Labour Party and the Lib (Anything will do) Dems.
Absolutely disgraceful behaviour and absolutely certain to bring the SUN. TIMES SKY etc etc on the side of the Tories!!
Tim - do you seriously expect us to believe that you want Coulson to stay in post because this is the outcome that will inflict maximum ongoing damage on Cameron?
You are either spinning to make a virtue out of a necessity or you lack tactical nous. Labour supporters I know are desperate for a ‘Gotcha’ moment. It’s now clear that they’re not going to get it - but their judgement as to what would inflict damage on DC is spot on.
BTW - I was bemused yesterday to see myself quoted by our esteemed editor. I don’t know who wrote the following, but it certainly wasn’t me:
“Coulson will most likley step down on Friday saying that he did not know about the alleged activity but he did not want to harm DC or The Conservatives as he had become the story. Then DC will turn the story around onto the alleged cover up by the authorities. The strategy is most likley being developed tonight. I suspect the replacement is already lined up, and has been in case Coulson was targeted like this.”
For the record, the only aspect of this I agree with is the final sentence: I’ve been given (on good authority) the identity of someone who is in the frame to replace Coulson - but he will only come into play if, as is rumoured, Coulson decides to step down after the election to build a lucrative Matthew Freud-style PR agency)
Looks like there’s quite a lot of techno-numpties out there in the world of celebs and politics.
Numpties who can’t be bothered to secure their mobile messenger services, despite this being a known issue for more years than I care to remember.
And numpties who leave sensitive messages on what cannot be assumed to be a secure service. [They may secure their own, but fail to consider that the recipient may not have secured theirs.]
The same numpties probably leave their phones and computers unlocked and unattended. They probably have had their Blackberrys shoulder surfed, and may be careless with laptops and sensitive documents.
Is any of this really that surprising?
52. If you want to reply on topic, that’s fine. There’s a discussion to be had there. It’s the constant distraction to other issues which simply are no longer players and the dragging up cases from sometimes decades ago which gets boring.
62 - That is no defence for industrial phone tapping if it is proved.
Though you might want to send that to Wapping as they could claim public interest!
14. “So the expenses cheats in the cabinet stay in position and so does Coulson.
A perfect result for both Labour and the Lib Dems.”
lol! *tim does irony*
“So David Cameron stays as Tory leader, Lord Ashcroft stays in charge of campaign funding, the Conservatives continue to have double-digit leads in the polls and they’re on course to win the Norwich North by-election.
A perfect result for both Labour and the Lib Dems.”
I actually find comic posts from you like this rather endearing tim - at least you *can* have a sense of humour; unlike Gabble.
It will need the support of the rest of the Press to kep this going. Todays Indy is very sniffy in its editorial about the Guardian claims and has wories that MP’s might use this to pay back the Press for the expenses exposure and limit Press freedom. Cameron could well get public support by tapping into that and saying its vital that it is not used to stop the Press doing their job and by sort of implying that this is what some MP’s are about. I am not at all sure that the public are that bothered - after all its Labour which has given us the surveillance society.Is this a case of the biter being bit.
Also interesting that the Computer Misuse Act was created in response to numpty-exploiting activity. It’s not an accident there’s no numpty defence.
“While at a tradeshow, Gold, by doing what latterly became known as shoulder surfing, had observed the password of a Prestel engineer: the username was 22222222 and the password was 1234.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Misuse_Act_1990
This sort-of makes sense; Information systems are incredibly hard to denumptify all the way along the chain, and most security breaches involve somebody somewhere along the line doing something mind-blowingly dumb. In the real world, breaking and entering is still breaking and entering even if the lock is totally really rubbish and comes off in a single kick.
I suspect we will not be seeing much more of Prescott for a while ?
I would be happy to hear how Tim thinks this story will continue in a way that impacts on political betting, if he can give some detailed reasoning. Otherwise “suffice to say this story will not be over by next week” sounds more like hope than grounded in reality.
I must say I am extremely disappointed by Chris Huhne’s behaviour in all of this. I used to think he had some substance and was disappointed when he was beaten by the vacuous Clegg but listening to his hysterical bleatings and his attempts to equate Coulson with the poisonous Damien McBride, I have nothing but contempt for the man.
Huhne comes out of this very badly.
68, oh? What do you think he’s going to hide behind?
70, only saw a little clip of Huhne’s hysterics in the Commons. Almost as funny as when Ed Davey (who is in no way immoral, but a bit of a simpleton) stormed out with all the rage of a My Little Pony over not getting a referendum no-one had promised in their manifestos.
Don -strategically my view on Coulson is the same as it is on the shadow front benchers who abused the expenses system.
The closer Cameron keeps them the better.
48. I do wonder whether the new Labour spin line on the economy isn’t yet another SNAFU. Having been roundly beaten in the “Tory cuts, Labour spend” attack by their own budget numbers, the new line seems to be “spend now, save later”. There is a slim chance that will play well while interest rates remain low and unemployment is not quite as bad as it is going to be, but in an election campaign fought on record levels of debt I fail to see how “my debt is bigger than your debt” wins many votes.
The people pushing the story - the BBC, The Guardian, Mandelson, Prescott, Brown, Salter, Campbell - are held in such contempt by the public that large numbers of people are going to think the opposite of whatever they say must be the truth.
Tories in their nasty mode again, I see. Obviously rattled over something. This has betting implications.
74. Eh? What implications?
Well Labour are keeping up the offensive, with Stephen Pound feeling the need to get involved.
Poor old Brown is getting overshadowed though. Anything actually happening over in Italy?
The Guardian are such a bunch of hypocrites. Their sister paper The Observer was at number 9 in the Top 10 of users of this material (more than the Daily Sport but a lot less than the Mirror papers). The Guardian Media Group are in it up to their necks. Surely if there is an investigation then it will also have to lead to the editors of all the papers that used these investigators and their tactics. And it is the Mirror papers and the Mail who are the worst offenders by a mile, not the Murdoch papers.
72. And what about the Cabinet tim do you have any opinions on the crooks in the government? Or are you blind in one eye?
Mike Smithson @ 49 re Yates.
Yates appears to have been talking only about the original case which led to the imprisonment of Clive Goodman and his private investigator. If celebs and politicians were also tapped, it would presumably not have been by the royal correspondent. The question is whether there was more than one PI involved.
Gordon Taylor did not cop £700,000 over a royal story, which implies there might be more than Yates reviewed. The sums tell us News International was keen to hush something up.
So the story may still have legs. It depends on how many celebs sue, and whether any select committees investigate.
But as Yokel notes @ 59, so far it is not really a political scandal.
This is awful pedantry but his name is spelt Alastair, not Alistair, Campbell.
voxpop @ 70 on equating Coulson with McBride.
McBride was poisonous but what happened at NotW was criminal. There are no saints here.
Morning all and just reading upthread, do we know Tim is one person? Seems to me that unless he is an insomniac living in a bedsit with nothing to do, Tim is actually a team of Labour bots in HQ taking turns to write crap.
So Coulson is already no longer the story which is now “Guardian out to get NOTW”. If I were one of those who shouted their mouths off yesterday I would be really scared. Fatty Prescott has so many skeletons in his oversized closet, possibly a re-running of the bonked secretary stories or his close friendship with the homophobic, creationist Texan millionnaire.
Chris Huhne looked pompous and stupid this morning making allegations about things which frankly no-one knows and in most cases no one cares whether they are true or not. At least Lembik is entertaining.
This story may run but I hope that no-one at the Sanctimonious Guardian has engaged in baughty practices because if they have, front page on Sunday stuff.
80 Of course there are no saints here, not where politics and the gutter press are involved. But Coulson and McBride: totally different kettle of fish. Huhne is rushing to join in this Labour/BBC/Guardian smear campaign and is diminishing himself.
What do Lib Dems think?
81. I tell you what, I’ve always thought the Lib-Dem made the wrong choice picking Clegg over Huhne, but seeing him ranting and raving on the news last night I now believe the Lib’s made the correct decision and had a luckey escape. Huhne looked slightly deranged.
82 “different kettle of fish” (voxpop).
Indeed.
McBride: one person resigns and/or is sacked.
NotW: two people sent to prison and £1 million in out of court settlements.
84 — two people (forgot about Draper!).
The point is well-made between Guido’s approach and that of the Guardian. The problem for the Guardian was with Coulson: he was a virtual unknown outside of Chattering Classes/political circles, so the Guardian had to go big to get any traction.
They could have chosen a different route and started with a low-key release but that means the story could have been derailed at any stage by NotW and NI or the Police.
Also counting against the story is that it came with firebreaks built-in. All this happened 2 1/2 years ago, at the NotW NOT in Cameron’s office six months ago - it is impossible to imagine Cameron authorising the hacking of celebrity phones whilst on the other hand, with the McBride story that this has been mistakenly (and rather stupidly) likened to, it is perfectly possible to imagine Brown giving licence to McBride to organise a ‘dirty tricks’ campaign against the Conservatives.
That said, I expect Coulson to be eased aside in the coming months to stop any contamination of the ‘brand’. Perhaps a soujorn in the US before a return, freshly laundered, to the party sometime after the GE.
Huhne is an opportunistic demagogue with an excess of testosterone. Pefectly safe to ignore him.
Huhne does not look in the least deranged.
Tories pile in with nasty comments = Tories getting rattled about something.
Not sure why the Tories are getting so edgy, but the fact that they are suggests that all is not plain sailing for them.
Does this not have betting implications?
88. What implications?
83 GIN, agree on Huhne. Thought he might have calmed down after a night to reflect on things, but he was still in full swivel-eyed loon mode on Sky this morning. I’d always thought he was one of the more sobre and sensible LibDems, but he really needs to be put back in the box for a while.
That all is not well in the Tory camp, Scott.
88. LOL! I’m not rattled about anything. This is going nowhere. And Huhne DID look slightly deranged. Anybody that shouts when theres nothing to shout about makes themseleves look mad.
Quite right. A complete non-story and an embarasment for the Guardian. … a small circulation newspaper to start with.
90. Didn’t see him on Sky Mark, but after yesterdays performance in the Commons I can believe it.
If anyone’s rattled it’s the editor and owners of the Guardian newspaper who are sh*tting themselves at the prospect of a Tory government slashing their revenue from public sector job adverts.
Reading upthread, I am a bit confused as to which Scottish constituency has just lost its LibDem candidate who is also threatening to leave the party over MPs expenses.
Did he find out that if elected he would no longer receive as much as he had expected?
Given the Grauniad’s dependence on public sector advertising and the likely return of a Tory government within a year, this campaign is beginning to resemble the charge of the Light Brigade. How many more enemies can they afford on the proceeds of Motor Trader?
91. You may infer that all is not well, but where’s the bet?
91 Pat, don’t you go worrying yourself needlessly about us Tories. We are as happy as Larry on his holidays, we are…
Good Morning ‘tim’ Lovers Worldwide !!
Meanwhile …. is that dangerous right wing loony Herdson STILL in charge. As clear a case of bias as any at the BBC !!
Might I also remind Herr Herdson that if repetition is a capital offence on PB then the Conservative smearbots and their fellow traveller Martin von Day will be top of the queue for resettlement to ConHome !!
Heil Herdson !!
Your in Fraternal Fatherland Friendship
Jackboot Jack W.
Jack will last a thousand years !!
Does anyone have information on yesterday’s local government By Election results?
LDs Norwich North candidate does not live in Norwich….. She also has a moat.
From Iain Dale.
The problem is that the Greens do not have the leaflet delivery capacity to capitalise on this.
http://tinyurl.com/mx8qk5
91 sorry Pat but you are way off beam. There are just a number of us who having been treated like sh1t for 12 years are looking forward to Labour in particular and the LibDems to a lesser extent finding out how it feels.
Yes there are a handful of things which Labour 1997-2010 has done which will be worthy of memory but hopefully they will be trampled by the vast range of aspects of our lives which have been very badly damaged by this bunch of incompetents.
I for one hope the incoming Government bans advertising ofpublic sector jobs in any national newspaper so we can see the Guardian face bankruptcy before December 2010 and that odious Michael White face the dole queue. Yes that is vindictive, it is meant to be.
Re Norwich North, things aren’t getting much better for Labour. Their candidate is outed as a former Tory.
>>>>>>>>>betting post<<<<<<<<<<
The Lib Dems are now 4/1 to finish second in Norwich North. I’ve already had £50 at 100/30 so am reluctant to go in further in a speculative unhedged bet but if the sites distinguished betting denziens still think this is great value then I might! Any opinions?
81
‘Chris Huhne looked pompous and stupid this morning making allegations about things which frankly no-one knows and in most cases no one cares whether they are true or not.’
Huhne always reacts in exactly the same way:
1) Calls in the police.
2) Overdoes the outrage bit.
Time he spent some of his millions on some basic media coaching.
His trousers looked immaculate.
To the above, they are 4/1 with Sporting Bet.
106 John F. Huhne - “His trousers looked immaculate.”
96 - the Constituency is East Lothian and the person is annoyed at the expenses claimed by some LD MP’s.
111 -the post now refers to Easterross’s post at 98.
98. Easterross. I believe it was one of the Aberdeen seats, was in the Scottish papers yesterday.
113. Easterross ignore my post , Marcia has given the information correctly.
111 Indeed I noticed Huhne’s clothes always look immaculate. Anyone would think he has a trouser press at home. Presumably he has one in each of his homes.
105 noisy
Personally I think it is good value. Labour are not exactly flavour of the month, and the circumstances of the by-election can hardly help them. The LibDems are clearly trying hard. The Greens start from a very low base, are not strong in this more rural area, and don’t seem to be well organised.
Overall I’d expect Labour to get a good kicking. Some of their votes will leak to the Greens, but probably some to the LibDems as well.
Also - PtP said a couple of days ago that evens would be about right.
the local news about the LD candidate withdrawl in East Lothian.
http://www.eastlothiancourier.com/news/roundup/articles/2009/07/02/389168-libdem-stunner/
111/113 Thanks Marcia and MalcolmG. I thought that was the seat because he is/was LibDem group leader on that council. It is just that a report suggested it was Aberdeen S and then because it referred to a seat the LibDems have an expectation of winning I thought it had to be either Aberdeen S or Edinburgh S because they still believe they can win them. Of course the SLD believes it can win every seat in Scotland so presumably East Lothian is an odds on certainty.
2 more troops killed in Afghanistan!
111/113 Thanks Marcia and MalcolmG. I thought that was the seat because he is/was LibDem group leader on that council. It is just that a report suggested it was Aberdeen S and then because it referred to a seat the LibDems have an expectation of winning I thought it had to be either Aberdeen S or Edinburgh S because they still believe they can win them. Of course the SLD believes it can win every seat in Scotland so presumably East Lothian is an odds on certainty.
2 more troops killed in Afghanistan!
Easterross @81
I have long suspected that there is more than one Tim. Sometimes, they slip up by replying, very quickly, to points raised with detailed information on obscure issues. No normal person could possibly know this detail by memory and surely they would have to be a complete anorak to have a database of this kind.
Sorry, just realised I have described Tim.
Morning all,
Good article by Mike catching the mood well I think.
What I am intrigued about is exactly what are the Select Committee going to spend their time doing? From what I can see all the substantive issues were covered in the Select Committee report from 2006 that I posted last night.
Are we going to be treated to a procession of NI executives and former executives saying “We answered that last time” and ‘We cannot comment on a confidential agreement for fear of breaching a third parties privacy” and “Have you got anything new”?
Furthermore, I find it bewildering that they should set out on a witchhunt against NI when clearly the Mirror Group and Mail Group have considerably greater questions to answer. Was Dacre and his countepart at the Mirror called last time and as others have mentioned what about the Observer?
If they were interviewed what’s the point of this new investigation?
In addition, I am intrigued that the Independent, Telegraph and Guardian do not appear on the list. Is it possible they never use private investigators or is it perhaps the case that they simply use other private investigators?
Now in the Indy’s case, considering their parlous financial position, it could well be they couldn’t afford private investigators but the Guardian (well possibly) and Telegraph?
Most importantly how is it that when it is reported by both the Information Commissioner and the Select Committee report that there is widesspread abuse involving thousands of infractions with hundreds of journalists involved only one ends up in prison and there are no more than 20 or so prosecutions?
In addition following on from this what involvement did the contemporary Prime Ministers, Lord Chancellors and Home Secretaries have in this matter. Something as high profile as hacking of a member of the Royal Family’s entourage, involved politicians and some of Labours favourite celebrities surely warranted some sort of intervention from senior levels of Government?
Finally, who are the police officers who have abused their position in Public Office? As with the Telegraph expenses scandal the information has been sourced from the public sector domain and yet there seems no concern that someone paid for by the taxpayer has abused their position and is being protected. Did money or benefits in kind change hands perhaps? It’s time there was transparency on such matters.
If this was a plot hatched by Labour’s ‘black ops masterminds’ and the Guardian it seems to me that the left need to get a new team. What were they thinking, recycling an expired story?
As for Huhne’s mad professor performance yesterday, whilst amusing, I do wonder if there is some sort of viral outbreak in the Libdems because Clegg regularly has such fits and as was pointed out Davey amongst others has also succumbed. Of course the likes of Vince Cable and Jo Swinson seem to be immune but it is a worry……
106 millsy - Oops, that’s hardly going to help bring out the core Labour vote.
111
Probably also annoyed by the £41,000 Lord Rennard claimed for his home which is around 2 miles from parliament.
Do you know if this money is going to be reimbursed to the taxpayer?
25
Ted,
“Noted last night that a few questioned Nick Robinson outside CCHQ rather than at G8 - rather than bias it seemed to me to show the right judgement on importance of the story; Gordon Brown at G8 isn’t one, what he says or G8 say isn’t particularly newsworthy anymore, but something affecting Cameron definitely is. The press and pubic have written Brown off”.
I think you have posssibly hit on a very important development that most others appear to have overlooked !
120 - the EU should bring in a 48 hour a week blogging directive
123, unfortunately there’s been another controversial Lib Dem claim with very little media coverage.
A Nick Clegg esquire has charged for one ton (metric) of bricks, which appears to have gone entirely unused.
70. Huhne has always been a pompous twerp, nothing new there.
More generally, these attention-seeking efforts by senior Lib Dems are starting to look embarassing. They remind me of the antics of my toddler nieces and nephews.
I meant to say earlier fair play to Gordon Brown for meeting Colonel Gaddafi. We need to get that dying man out of his Scottish prison cell when everyone outside America knows he wasn’t the Lockerbie bomber and we also need to re-establish a sphere of influence, if only for trade purposes in that part of the world. There is also a mother who wants her child back, snatched by its Libyan father.
It is one thing which really irritates me about Brown. 99% of the time he is like Tim, a total prat but now and again there is a chink of light showing the man can do something useful.
127 Labour employs the Tim Bot
LibDems employ the Violet Elizabeth Bott “I’ll scweam and scweam and scweam until I’m sick”
127 Runnymede et al, I have no time for Clegg, Huhne and co because of what they did to Charles Kennedy. Their biggest electoral assset and they stabbed him in the back. Fond of a dram or not he delivered them their highest tally of FPTP seats since they were eclipsed by Labour in the 1930s. What seems clear to all but the most rose tinted spectacle wearing LibDem supporter is that 2005 will prove to be their high water mark until the hopefully imploding Labour party post GE affords them an opportunity to realign the sensible centre-left and finish the job started by Roy Jenkins, David Owen, Bill Rodgers and Shirley williams.
I don’t think the Coulson story is dead yet, by a long way.
If some celebs decide to sue, then it’ll certainly gain new legs.
The FT.
There were signs on Thursday that Mr Coulson was not being fully supported by his former employers.
A person close to senior executives at News International told the Financial Times: “Andy Coulson left the News of the World and the main thing that Colin [Myler, the new editor] needed to do was to change the way the place ran.”
But there was palpable Tory relief at the Metropolitan Police decision on Thursday not to start a fresh investigation. “This blows a massive hole in the story,” a party insider insisted.
The reprieve may prove only temporary. The head of the culture, media and sport select committee, which on Thursday reopened its inquiry into phone hacking, said there was a “strong likelihood” that Mr Coulson would be called to give evidence, along with senior News Group executives.
Even if the pressure on Mr Coulson eases, there remain unanswered questions over how the affair will affect Mr Cameron’s relations with the Murdoch empire, including the Sun newspaper – a crucial potential media ally for the opposition party.
130. Easterross - I’m no fan of them either, but quite honestly I don’t see they had much choice about ousting Kennedy.
What I found appalling about that incident was the cover up that had gone on for a long time before, and which may well have contributed to Kennedy’s health being severely affected.
Hmmm, wasn’t Arnie going to solve all California’s problems, well there might be a way.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/smoke-dope-and-save-the-state-of-california-dude-1740231.html
Bet Dave would approve!
I’m surprised that some people here are questioning that this story has any betting implications.
It was Mike Smithson who first postulated the view that Alan Johnson had the best attack line on Cameron, ie look at the people around him.
Or as I like to put it.
“Dave’s a nice bloke but why is he standing in a septic tank”
Alan Johnsons argument is strengthened the more tainted people Cameron surrounds himself with.
Djanogly comes clean
He said the cleaner and her predecessors were provided with free board and that “any other ad hoc duties they may have occasionally performed was more than compensated” by this arrangement.
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/cn_news_crier/displayarticle.asp?id=432248
134 tim - No, because it is just a general smear with no coherent narrative. It doesn’t tie in with anything else.
Labour supporters should be the first to understand this. Was Blair damaged by the unsavoury characters he associated with?
To my great surprise, even the McBride scandal - the worst example of party nastiness in living memory - had little effect on the electorate as a whole.
The idea that the public are going to get worked up about tabloid journalists using dodgy methods to get scoops is cloud-cuckoo-land.
131. The celebs who’ll sue will be the ones who’ll do anything to satisfy their publicity hunger - Vanessa Feltz, Jordan, Esther Rantzen, Kerry Katona - they won’t do the Labour cause any good at all.
Robert Peston now in on the act. Nothing to do with Economics and a direct comment on Coulson. This is a Labour attack no doubt about it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/
“Dave’s a nice bloke”
Well said Tim, I’d like to return the compliment about Gordon but sadly for the nation he’s an utter [insert description].
134 - “Dave’s a nice bloke but why is he standing in a septic tank?”
Because he got elected to it?
134.
What notice are people going to take from a smarmy ex postman, who has already said he is not up to the job ?
The biggest mistake that a Labour and the Libs have made is to stick their pious oar.
The issue is now a party political one and hence their attacks look like they are very partisan and petty - Coulson has done his porridge.
137
Don’t know about that? Blokes of a certain age, (not me) may spring to Jordan’s defence. I was thinking more in the way of Ferguson.
So ‘ol Danglegoolies has upset JM.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198723/The-Millionaire-Tory-au-pair-25-000-repaid-expenses-John-Major-condemns-greedy-successor-Tory-anger-grows-huge-expenses-claim.html
Yeah! wouldn’t give him her number more like.
25 Ted ‘…The press and pubic have written Brown off”.
So he’s lost his sex appeal as well then?
134: “Or as I like to put it.
“Dave’s a nice bloke but why is he standing in a septic tank””
You can put it how you like, a septic tank is a wondrous thing. I know, my house has one. It’s odour-free, processes everything flushed into it to a clean, dry tilth and returns clean water to the water table. It hasn’t needed emptying in 20 years and shows no sign of giving up on that blemish-free record.
If only the same could be said of Brown’s government.
143. Why he hasn’t been deselected already is a mystery to me.
What would be the most annoying sentence for Gordon & Tim to hear
My go:
“I see George Osborne’s been nominated by the Etonians in the shadow cabinet and also the Liberal DEMOCRATS to stand against you on an “always tell the truth and trans’pair’ency” dividing line line in Kirkcaldy at next week’s General Election, here’s 10p to call Mandy to bail you out again”
138. The way the BBC have jumped all over this story is very revealing, isn’t it? After many months of demoralisation as their side has taken blow after blow, suddenly a chink of light…
…and what on earth has this got to do with the so-called ‘business correspondent’?
from son of Labour peer Peston “I have learned that the News of the World was apparently eavesdropping on the phone messages of Rebekah Wade…”
WTF is he even doing with this stuff?
Probably another one who left a message on the vmail of one of those implicated such as Taylor.
Gabble seems to have been put back in his kennel, but Coldstone brought out to do his best. The thing about attack-dogs, they really do need a few teeth.I wonder who is feeding them? NickP perhaps? Whenever these stories crop up, he usually comes in with a mild feeder line, which fools some of the people, some of the time.
1. The Coulson story will probably be dead after the Sundays have had their bite.
2. Huhne is the type of person who, when he finds himself in a hole, will dig ever deeper.
3. What will not go away however is the rising casuality list of the British Afgan Force, ( another two dead this morning ), due to lack of proper equipment and outdated fighting methods. The fact that Britain has to depend on the U.S. for helicopters, says it all.
A death of a soldier a day, which is what we are having will break this government quicker that anything else.
Britain is now paying the price for an underfunded (where it counts) and overbloated MOD. Both major parties must take the blame for this, although Labour must hang their heads and take the major share as the MOD has become a complete shambles under their tutelage.
The statement by Yates pulled the rug out from this story immediately, and the Guardian coverage now has the appearance of clutching at straws. The lack of further splashes in this mornings front pages suggests, if nothing else, that the newspaper owners and journalists would rather not open up any more cans of worms.
It did not stop the “significant problems for the conservatives” line that the BBC continued with yesterday – and as noted above, slips into the end of the Peston piece today. Contrast that with the large bucket of cold water that Tom Bradby poured over it on ITN at 10pm last night.
The last time Peston went off his so called specialist subject was when the Yacht gate saga was live.
Now - can anyone see what these two stories have in common ?
At this stage we don’t know if it’s got legs or not, and whether they’re party political or just journalistic. However, Cameron’s position seems to be hovering halfway between two assertions:
a) Coulson assures me he knew nothing about these matters, so he has nothing to answer.
b) Coulson was in charge when illegal actions were taking place, but he resigned and even people who behave badly deserve a second chance.
The ’second chance’ line seems inconsistent with ‘he didn’t know anything’ line. As long as the story doesn’t develop, the public won’t much care, but if it does then DC will need to settle on one or the other version.
As for the Select Committee, SCs are extremely sensitive about the slightest hint that they’ve not been told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It’s par for the course that they’ve decided it needs another hearing.
154. The ‘clutching at straws’ referred to above is evident there, too.
O/T, but amusing:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-business/article-23717431-details/Anglo+s+own+dinosaur+takes+a+bite+at+woman+chief/article.do
154. NPMP. Nick, my friend, you are clutching at straws. Of Course Labour are whiter than white.
150 – Svejk. Do you honestly regard Coldstone as a toothless attack-dog?
Lay off, he’s an institution, barking mad of course but a treasure non the less.
132 Runnymede, there was no cover up. I was the year below Charles at university and knew him fairly well. He was a heavy drinker as a 19 year old and never changed. It didnt stop him becoming the World Debating Champion or one of the most popular Presidents of the Glasgow University Union, the male only union (happy days before we let the women in except on special occasions and for debates). The other day I came across the programme for the “Daft Friday Ball” [an all night white/black tie affair held on the second Friday of December which was always the last day of the Martinmas term] in the year of his Presidency. The cartoons were lampooning him as the drunken union president who took a taxi back from Dundee for which he acquired the sobriquet “Taxi Kennedy” as it went on his expenses.
He was also the President who successfully campaigned for the late Reggie Bosanquet to be elected Lord Rector of the University of Glasgow, in which campaign he was successful.
Even after 26 years as MP, Charles to a certain extent still “walks on water” in Ross-shire.
138 The comments on Peston’s blog aren’t very complimentary towards the BBC’s new ‘Gossip and Celebrity’ reporter. He must have realised he’s rubbish at economics and diversified.
154 - The person who gets to ask Coulson if he knew about the hacking will of course be a Tory, John Whittingdale.
So the partisan line won’t hold.
O/T - Is this why Daves Quango day on Monday was such amess up
They had spent all weekend with Coulsons lawyers?
154 NickP - There is no inconsistency between (a) and (b) in your post, except that you have add the spurious phrase ‘people who behave badly’ to (b).
There has never been any suggestion that Coulson behaved badly; to the contrary, he took responsibility for things done by his employees on his watch.
The country would be a much better place if Labour ministers followed that example.
154 NPMP Cameron hasn’t said that Coulson has “behaved badly”. Jeremy Hunt on QT said that he had behaved honourably in taking responsiblity for something he knew nothing about.
163 - Hunt said Coulson knew nothing about it?
This should cheer up our genial host prior to his siesta time
The Tories failed to take overall control at Gosport Borough, Hampshire, as the Liberal Democrats defended two seats in a double council by-election.
The Brockhurst result leaves the Conservatives with 16 councillors out of 34 on the authority.
The Green Party polled more than a third of the votes at Walberswick and Wenhaston, Suffolk Coastal District, in a straight fight with the Tories and nearly doubled its percentage share at Gosport to overtake Labour for third place.
RESULT:
Gosport Borough - Brockhurst: Two seats Lib Dem 562, 523, C 364, 339, Green 131, Lab 60, 56. (May 2008 - Lib Dem 571, C 476, Lab 81, Green 74). Lib Dem hold two seats. Swing 4.9% C to Lib Dem.
Lichfield District - Whittington: C 345, Lib Dem 185. (May 2007 - Two seats C 826, 771, Lib Dem 351, 312). C hold. Swing 5.6% C to Lib Dem.
Suffolk Coastal - Walberswick and Wenhaston: C 316, Green 163. (May 2007 - C 574, Lib Dem 222). C hold.
158
Ta! for that. I see Wade’s phone was hacked by the NoW well, well: no honour amongst hacks.
Just seen Gaddafi on the box, wonderful array of medal ribbons, even more than Prince Charles.
165. Possibly good news there for those of us who have a few quid on the Greens coming second in Norwich North.
I’m disappointd the bookies haven’t yet offered prices on Labour coming 4th or below…
150, as if by magic here’s Nick P spinning the line at 154!
I see Mr Palmer gets a special mention on Page 8 of this weeks Private Eye, as one of the MPs chosen by the parliamentary Labour party to sit on the parliamentary reform committee.
‘Others making the cut included David Clelland, Clive Betts and Nick Palmer, all of whom can be relied upon to toe the party line’.
What’s all this clutching of straws about? Not referring to the great Minister of Injustice Jack Straw I hope!
164 Yes, tim that’s what he said. You can check on iplayer if you want, it’s about 5 minutes in, though I understand if your “duties” here make you too busy.
153, I was thinking the same thing.
Just checked Peston’s blog and the common theme is that people would prefer him to stick to what we the reluctant license payers pay him to do, comment on economic and business issues.
172
Yeah! and not do anything to upset Tories particularly tartan ones.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2009/07/news_of_the_world_bugged_sun_e.html
172, it’s ironic that if he’d commented on the yacht business by attacking Mandelson for being with a Russian oligarch when EU trade commissioner it would’ve actually made sense, rather than more smears against the Tories.
105/116 Noisy/Richard
Tricky one, that LD bet in Norwich.
Originally I thought Greens would do exceptionally well but it seems they are poorly organised. I assumed then that the decaying Labour vote would go to the LDs, but their price has actually drifted a shade. I took 7/2 and was sure I had good value but you now tell me there is 4/1 with Sporting. Of course, it could just be that Sporting don’t really know what they’re doing when it comes to framing political odds, a characteristic that is generally true of all major bokmakers except Ladbrokes.
I’m tempted to dip in again at 4/1. It’s betting blind in the sense that the MSM and even the local rags are paying scant attention to the election. Just on common sense grounds, I’d reckon the LDs must have a chance of second spot, but it’s not one to put the mortgage on.
Thanks for bringing the price to my attention.
For a political scandal to gain real traction it has to move across media and spread like a wildfire. At the moment, only the Telegraph has covered it as a front page. The Mirror is being unusually circumspect and the Mail has used it for a slightly anti Labour article. The Sun/Times will treat this with caution for obvious reasons.
Compare that with expenses, where it went front page across the board, onto Sky/BBC News and hit the blogosphere and generated real anger. I suspect the public might be a bit bemused after yesterday. There has not been a core message to get this one going. It might come, it might not.
Watching QT last night, it was interesting to note that the audience weren’t in a “lynch them” mood, nor were the govt/LibDems representatives and I thought Jeremy Hunt had a very good response. It is interesting to note that the younger members of the electorate no longer seem to viscerally hate the Conservatives by default and that they have built up good relations with Liberty, where Shami Chakrabarti actually had good things about Coulson. The political kaleidoscope is now in flux and where all the pieces fall will be interesting.
Finally I really don’t think this is a Labour plot with the Guardian. It has completely removed the G8 from the airwaves and as GB does rather better when on the world stage, I think is the last thing that the communications director for the Govt/Labour is going to want to see hidden. I think this the Guardian going after Murdoch, onto which the Lib/Lab parties have hitched a ride.
167 Runnymede
There must be every chance of Labour finishing fourth, so give us a shout if you see any odds (after placing your own bets of course.)
Greens have been disappointingly disorganised but I still wouldn’t rule out a surprise second place. I got £25 at 6/1. Not tearing my ticket up yet.
test.
175. Peter - one of the problems with this market is we have very little concrete info coming our way.
The stuff about the Greens being ‘disorganised’ is just Lib Dem comment, and needs to be treated with caution. And does the level of effort the Lib Dems are putting in indicate a tight race for second - as some of the polling data would suggest - or something else?
And what’s happening to the Labour vote? The candidate doesn’t look great, and the recent locals results were poor. But is a further erosion of the vote taking place or will a byelection bring out some abstainers?
My strategy has been to back both Greens and Lib Dems for second, assuming Labour’s vote will haemmoraghe a bit more. I’ll top up a bit on the Lib Dems at 4-1 now.
168 EdP.”Do you ken NickP with his coat so trim - SlaveTrade and Coldstone,Gabble and Tim - always ready to smear it for him- and the rest of his shower in the morning?”
176, I think Hunt will rise to a pretty senior Cabinet position during the next Tory Government (should Cameron win).
Mascara Man, the glorious Health Secretary, managed to look out of his depth with a panel containing Sarah Teather and a random 18 year old.
Also, politicians should wear ties. And preferably waistcoats. But ties are essential.
149. TC. Re Pestons thread. I agree the Wade stuff seems rather b*tchy but the rest of it highlights the myopic partisan position the Guardian has taken. As Peston points out the other papers do have considerable questions to answer.
Personally, by creating ‘them and us’ dividing lines, the BBC may well be doing us a favour if it results in all of them being held to account for their partisan, invasive, lazy and often ridiculous presentation of the ‘facts’.
It will of course potentially increase the resentment and recriminations between news organisations and watching the fallout from that might well be quite fun in some cases as well.
After all if there are one group who are more disreputable than politicians, it is their ‘bedfellows’ in journalism. Watching them turn in on themselves is something that is way overdue. In the end bringing the media to account is, in many ways, as important as bringing our politicians to account.
170 - Thanks for that.
Jeremy Hunt specifically refused to say that Coulson denies knowledge of phone hacking.
He was very very deliberate in what he said and limited it narrowly to the Royal reporter case.
# 8
Phone hacking has been going on for years and those people who think they’re important have known that.
True what you say though - some say Mandelson’s fingers are all over it.
The sactimonious drivel posted on here by the Tory herd sometimes really is something to behold. Obviously this story is uncomfortable reading for them, but that does not mean it is a big Guardian and BBC inspired attempt to smear David Cameron in a last desparate attemp to save public sector advertising money and the licence fee. If the Tory herd cannot see the public interest implications in the best selling newspaper in the UK routinely breaking the law to get stories, then their partisanship has descended into something more worrying.
Nothing that happened yesterday dimishes the central claim in the Guardian’s story. And that is that while Andy Coulson was the editor of the News of the World, its journalists routinely hacked into the mobile telephones of thousands of British citizens and people from overseas. What’s more, neither Coulson nor News International have denied these claims. On top of that, the statement from Yates yesterday did not contradict these claims either as he spoke directly and specificaly about the previous Scotland Yard investigaiton of just two NoW journalists.
This story will run because Coulson will now have to speak directly and in public about what he did and did not know while at the News of the World. And if he claims he did not know, he will have to explain why. Furthermore, the Guardian also knows the names of the NoW journalists involved in all of this. Should it decide to publish those names - and last night on Newsnight the bloke who broke this story stated it was still being debated internally (a nice threat it sounded to me) - then it will get very interesting: will there be any libel writs as a consequence? If not, why not?
In the big picture, none of this will have the slightest affect on the outcome of the next election. The Tories will win by a landslide. However, what it does show us is that Dave is very relaxed and happy to give second chances to a certain type of person, but not to everyone. It also shows us that his preening calls for honesty, transparency and trust in poitics are nothing but shallow, self-serving spin.
He will not tell us why he is so relaxed about Coulson’s role in the affair, he will not provide any transparency with regard to Tory Party and Shadow Cabinet funding, he applies one rule to those he favours and another to those he does not, he will not tell us the areas in which the Tories will make the biggest cuts when they come to power. In short, he is a hypocrite - he says one thing and does another.
It will not stop him becoming the next Prime Minister and it will not prevent a deserved Labour routing at the next election. But he is a hypocrite nevertheless. And because he is, one day it will come back to bite him.
181 - Sadly I think you are right about Hunt, and he is another person who has admitted to not telling the truth during the expenses scandal.
Frontbench Tory Jeremy Hunt has admitted not telling the truth about letting his agent stay rent-free in his taxpayer-funded country home.
Shadow Culture Secretary Mr Hunt, already facing a probe over expenses, said he let his Tory agent Margaret Chellingworth live rent-free for seven months at his second home in Farnham after he became MP for South West Surrey and lived in London.
He then changed his story and said she lived there for up to a year. But now he has admitted she stayed at the property - partly paid for by taxpayers’ cash - for over THREE years.
Mr Hunt, 42, admitted misleading constituents and his website says his agent stayed there from February 2004 until she retired in June 2007.
Rules say MPs are banned from allowing anyone close to them or their party benefiting from taxpayers’ cash claimed on their second homes. Angry constituents now demand an inquiry.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/06/14/tory-lies-over-rent-free-home-115875-21439054/
And before you claim, oh thats just the Mirror, poor Jeremy admitted it on his blog
2. My agent, who is also a close friend, continued to stay there 3-4 nights per week as she had been doing since long before the election - from February 2004 in fact. She stayed there until she retired in June 2007 (longer I accept than the 7 months I said at the meeting - I thought she retired in 2006 but in fact it was 2007)..
183 What Hunt said, in response to a question from Dimbleby, was you would have to ask Coulson whether he had any knowledge of other hacking.
But this is a different subject from that raised at 154 where Nick Palmer misstates Cameron’s position as giving a second chance to people who have behaved badly. Coulson’s resignation was in the rare, honourable, category of taking responsiblity for something he knew nothing about. To describe such a resignation as bad behaviour is a deliberate attempt to mislead.
# 128
It’s not up to Gordon Brown to decide the release, it’s the decision of the Scottish government. The word here is that Meghahi would rather prove his innocence and go ahead with his appeal rather than be released on a whim of politicians.
His family live near the prison and visit him very regularly. I’ve yet to establish who pays for their very comfortable home.
East Lothian Lib Dems - a serious case of toys out pram by someone who should know better.
It is a real shame when ego and personality disputes mess up a decent local party.
185, if it isn’t then why was Nick Robinson saying on the Ten O’clock News that the Tories had questions to answer?
186: You seem to have those two different sources of information very close to hand tim…only 10minutes.
I have to admit to being highly amused by the attempts to quash the story. Clearly this is a non-story with no further action being taken. Well, apart from by the Director of Public Prosecution (who flatly contradicted John Yates), the Press Complaints Commission and the Commons Select Committee (whos Tory chair has already said that he is likely to call Coulson before them next week).
What a non-story that will be. And the high-profile celeb lawyers on the BBC this morning discussing the phone calls they received yesterday looking into potential litigation? Again, nothing to see here so I read above.
Sorry chaps, but Cameron screwed the pooch on this one. Coulson will be forced out, and the staunch support he has been given will damage Dave. You have to wonder how Coulson is so integral to his operation that he cannot be let go - as un-firable as Gove, Lansley and Duncan presumably.
192, could you explain why Man Who Resigned over the affair the first time should resign from a job unrelated to the affair, and in which he’s done nothing illegal or untoward?
Just can’t get enthusiastic about this story when there’s now 9 lads dead in 9 days fighting a futile, unjustifiable, unwinnable and costly war in Afghanistan.
Shame on this government.
179 Agreed, Runnymede. At 4/1, LDs worth a few coppers but it’s largely guesswork.
O/T, those anxiously awaiting my Newmaket tips are advised that I will be taking the pin and blindfold of their box shortly.
runnymede @ 148 — it is a business story insofar as News International has paid £1 million in out of court hush money.
Legal and crime correspondents may be interested too.
Further, because of the people hacked, it is also a sports story, a royal story and a showbiz one.
Last, and probably least, it is a political story.
194. Indeed. We see the priority of Labour and the Lib-Dems stripped bare at the moment. And it’ll go on like this until May 2010. The coming few months will be insanelyt horrible and dirty. And all the while the economy will be sinking and our brave soldiers will be dying. Only on May 7th 2010 will the stench of the swear finally be blown away as Brown and his accolites are defeated once and for all.
176 - I don’t think Burnham did that badly. He comes across reasonably well on television and is quite telegenic and seems ‘reasonable’. Although I would agree he is probably not leadership material. As for the others well Teather is a Cambridge graduate, as is Burnham, and even the supposed ‘ordinary’ representative of young people is going to Cambridge in September while Chakrabarti went to the LSE and is Liberty Director so they were all reasonably articulate as you would expect them to be.
186 - It is a memorable thing to tell a meeting.
Someone lives in your house for three and a half years, and when questioned you tell the meeting it was seven months.
All Hunts comments on truth and honour regarding Coulson must be judged against his own rather peculier interpretation of those concepts.
198. Burnham looks like a slightly overgrown student politician, as do so many of the New Labour drones.
194 Nine soldiers in 9 days is truly awful. 4 Rifles are being cut to ribbons out there. Shame on the politicians for sending them out there under resourced to do the job properly.
Am I alone in thinking that Coulson’s removal will make no difference at all to the result of the next election?
People are fed up with the government because they’ve lost their jobs and their money, not because McBride went and Coulson stayed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf1e-pf1irI
Tony Blair at Yale, 40 minutes in explaining how in the UK the left can only win by playing to the centre, that even radical right wing governments can get elected in contrast. If Labour only plays to it’s base it’s doomed he says, wonder who he’s referring to.
As for Andy Coulson, the only disadvantage for Cameron is it puts Labour on the front foot regardless of his innocence. In the medium term however, will Mr Murdoch allow the News of the World to be quite so flirtatious with Labour?
Regarding the BBC, their main news is becoming almost unwatchable. After days, weeks, months, years of Labour failing being the media narrative, in the name of fairness the BBC have decided it’s the Tories turn to have pressure applied to them. Nick Robinson has gone native, he now appears further to the left than Andrew Marr - and that’s saying something.
The BBC are far too powerful, it’s an organisation which has to be shrunken down. Whether Cameron has the nerve to do it, I don’t know, but that many in the BBC fear he does, is for certain.
I note this story is currently at Number 10 on the BBC’s most read stories list. Clearly the public think its going nowhere as well.
Sadly the latest deaths in Afghanistan are just one place ahead at number 9. Which is kind of shocking really. It shows just how switched off the general public appear to be to whats going on in Afghanistan! :O
Re the odds of 4/1 on LDs to finish second in Norwich, Sporting Bet limited me to a maximum of £2.
I referred earlier to Sporting as bookmakers. I apologise for this error.
203. In the modern Britain of services, rapid communications and an all-encomapssing ‘middle-class’ culture, the BBC is playing a critical role as a support and power base for the left.
It is as important, if not more so, than the trade unions and nationalised industries formerly were. A previous generation of Tories smashed the power of those groups - the current generation need to do the same to the BBC. It’s basically about raw power, about who runs Britain, as before…
What ever old news or smears Tim comes out with, this hows how worried the bunker is about the quality of the Conservative Front bench, the fact that the Conservatives are well funded, the fact the Coulson is doing a good job. All signs that Labour will be dumped in the trash cans at the next election.
People are saying to me things like why are the BBC going over board on this with their Labour biased reporting when all this has NOTHING to do with Cameron or the Conservatives, why Labout are more conserned to remove a very sucessful Communicatons Director from their rivals rather than sort out the mess that they have made of the country. This pathethic BBC & Labour attack is another nail in the coffin of both organisations.
185. Southam
You can fulminate as much as you like and so can the Guardian about Coulson but the NI response is simple - ‘Asked and answered (back in 2006)’. It’s old news.
So unless you want to open up the whole question of why action was not taken in 2006 by the Government, Parliament, Law Enforcement and the Judiciary against all those implicated in the scandal: The NI group, The Mail Group, The Mirror Group, the Observer and so forth then I don’t see what you are going on about?
As for Coulson, he paid a price for not having his eye on the ball. He resigned from his job. Has Dacre whose paper is implicated on a scale far greater than any of the NI Group or any of the other editors on whose watch this scandal happened lost theirs as a result?
Do you think that it is right that Coulson be punished twice whilst the rest get away scot free or do you think it is right that, on some personal level, that Coulson should be hounded from every job he has the fortune to attain for his one publicised failure?
205. Good grief, what a bunch of w******
To respond to posts above: what is the meaning of the phrase ‘people should be given a second chance’ if there is no suggestion that they behaved badly in the first place? Churchill lost the 1945 election and came back, but wouldn’t it seem odd to say about that, “Well, it was right to give Churchill a second chance”?
One can argue that it was a slip of the tongue, and Cameron meant to say something like, “Coulson behaved well throughout and has earned the chance to use his talents elsewhere”, but it’s stretching it. It’s more reasonable to assume that he’s covering himself in view of the implausibility of the editor knowing nothing whatever about what seems to have standard oeprating procedure.
In 1997 it was Michael Portillo losing his seat which gave Labour activists the biggest thrill. In 2009/10 which politician’s defeat will make the Tories happiest? Given his performance yesterday and his inability to use an iron I would like to nominate Chris Huhne, I believe Nick Clegg would second me.
193 - What makes you say nothing untoward or illegal? Do we know that yet? Why did he resign the first time if as you say he not only did nothing wrong but what happened was “untoward”. I’m sure the court disagreed when it jailed his reporter.
What he resigned for was bugging Prince Charles. This appears to be bugging everyone else including his alleged friend and fellow News Corp editor. We shall see what the various investigations now going on dig up - and then we have one of two scenarios. One - as Editor he was totally clueless as to what was going on and was therefore utterly incompetent - in which case why is Cameron paying him £400k a year? Or Two, he knew exactly what was going on and either endorsed it or did nothing to stop it.
The resignation is to protect his boss from further embarrasment. McBride had to go because he sent an email creating smears from his twisted imagination. Coulson presided over a news room that illegally bugged people looking for information to smear them with. yes, I can see how Tories would see this to be utterly different!
173 Coldstone I have no problem with Robert Peston speaking about the NOTW bugging allegation. What I do have a problem with is him doing it at my expense during the time I am paying him to work as an Economics editor at the BBC. This is especially so when I see more and more decent programming on the BBC replaced by the sort of rubbish which belongs on E4 or Bravo.
As for Arlene Philips being dumped for Aleisha Dixon. One is an internationally recognised dance choreographer and teacher who is an incredibly 60 odd year old woman. The other is stunning but other than win SCD really has no qualifications to sit as a judge. Dumbing down again by the Beeb.
i dont understand why dacre is not in the firing line or the editors of other papers who are implicated in this who are still in place? can anyone explain?
209.You’re posting about the Tory media man - just admit it’s pure politics on your part, does Mr Coulson deserve unemployment forever?.
209. You are really scraping the barrel today, Nick. I understand your desperation, but it does you no credit.
209 NPMP - Mandelson and others have been given 2nd and even 3rd chances. Are you suggesting that it was wrong of Brown to re-employ them given their previous misdemeanours and that they should forever be marked as untrustworthy or unsuitable for appointment?
212 Easteross re Robert Peston.
Peston is the BBC’s business (not economics) editor, and this is a business story.
194 - What a shameful post. Utterly despicable. Perhaps the most disgraceful I have ever seen on this site.
218.Are you new here?
197 - Could it get dirtier than using the deaths of servicemen in attempt to prevent discussion of subjects that make Tories uncomfortable? Totally and utterly sickening.
218. Good grief you are easily shocked. Or has the pomposity amp been turned up to 11 today?
211 it was actually bugging Prince William. As Tom Badby of ITN pointed out last night, it was actually he who started the story because he discovered the NOTW had reported on a private conversation between him and Prince William.
I rather like Andy Burnham. His promotion gets the vacuus Tessa Jowell off our screens. I do wish though Burnham’s wife wouldn’t dress like some fishwife from Margate going to a posh wedding (with apologies to any PBer who is a fishwife from Margate). White coats and floppy hats are the sort of thing Twiggy wore in the 1960s.
As for Portillo moments my top 5 so far are
Ed Balls losing his safe seat
Alistair Darling losing Edinburgh SW
Chris Huhne losing Eastleigh
Sarah Tether winning her seat
Tories winning Sunderland South and it being the first declaration
218 - You must have missed Easterross’ comment blaming Gordon Brown for the death of the G8 protester.
Even the herd were sickened by that one.
220.I think the point the poster was making was there are more important things to get exercised about, like the deaths of 9 British soldiers. I agree with him. This is a media obssessed with media story, it bares no comparison to the strategic blunder which is Afghanistan.
216 - Mandy has been given 2nd and 3rd chances. And at every stage Tories have howled in rage about how that man can be put in that position of power after what he’s done.
Should Coulson be unemployed forever? Absolutely not. Should he be put into a position of power over a media communications operation? Hell no. There were large-scale mutterings about his appointment when first made (by a lot of back bench Tories) because of who he is and what he’s done. The mud stuck to him is still there fellas….
207 - Coulson resigned specifically because of what happened with the royal reporter, claiming he did not know about it but taking responsibility. If it turns out that this was not actually one rogue reporter and actually involved dozens, then that is completely different.
209. Nick Palmer.
You can play semantics with the interpretation of a phrase as much as you like (is that really what we pay MPs for?) but when you can find a moment in your busy schedule of wordsmithing perhaps you might like to answer a question?
Do you think the contemporary editors (in 2006 that is) of the Daily Mirror, Sunday Mirror, Daily Mail, Mail On Sunday, Evening Standard, Sunday People, The Observer and the rest should resign from whatever job they hold now?
SO, do stop the ‘Holier than thou’ hand wringing. What’s shameful about post 194? Is it the uncomfortable truth that you find so disconcerting?
222. I had forgotten about Ed Balls. Yes Balls up to number 1 Tory target.
This Non Story has become the biggest yawn ever. At least it has exposed Labours Stasi Control of the BBC/Guardian Media for all to see. Keep it running though, it’s a longterm Labour “vote loser”.
211 - Incompetence in one role would not necessarily exclude someone from being excellent in another related role. A good manager can see that and reallocate his team accordingly - a good Chancellor might make a dreadful Defence Secretary and so on. Like everyone here we are all speculating on something we do not know the full facts of. Finally on the second chance issue, if we can’t give someone a second chance than McBride should be unemployed for all time and the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act might as well be repealed. I got done for speeding. Should my licence to drive be permanently revoked?
226. Then you would also agree that the same should happen to all those who were implicated?
221 - No, I just find it revolting that Tories on here cite the deaths of people serving this country in a war that the Tories fully support as a reason for not discussing issues that they would prefer are not discussed.
It is one thing droning on about bias at the BBC, Tim smearing everyone and the Guardian trying to save its advertising revenue, quite another to start claiming soldiers’ deaths should stop debate about anything you do not like.
Revolting.
185 SO [and others taking the same line]
“Nothing that happened yesterday dimishes the central claim in the Guardian’s story.”
Quite the opposite. The central claim of the Guardian story was that the NOTW routinely hacked into ‘thousands’ of phone systems, including those of MPs such as John Prescott. By implication, the further claim was that the hacking was taking place on such a scale that Coulson must have known of and connived in it.
Both of those central claims now seem to be dead. Even the Guardian is no longer pushing them.
Most of the rest frankly seems to be froth. ‘Celebrities consulting their lawyers’?
There is a story here about the NOTW (and perhaps journalists from other papers),along the lines of ‘Tablod journalists sometimes use dodgy methods’, although it’s still unclear to me what is supposed to be new in the story.
224 - It’s a spurious argument. Soldiers were dying in Afghanistan when Damien McBride was exposed, it did not stop the herd from braying. Or was the McBride affair more important than soldiers dying?
222. You missed out the Broxtowe declaration.
185 You’re like someone who’s losing a game of poker, and complains that the winner won’t reveal his hand prematurely to you. Why should Cameron abandon a winning strategy?
228 - No it is the vile hypocrisy and the use of soldiers’ deaths to try and close down discussion.
does Mr Coulson deserve unemployment forever?
Does McBride? There’s been a decent level of interest over the past few months over what he is doing with his work life. Personally I’d like to see the back of all such grubby, dissembling and underhand people from our politics.
Unsurprisingly, [most] people in the Labour camp are only interested in being rid of such people if they are Tories, and [most] people in the Tory camp are only interested in getting rid of such people if they are Labour.
I think that just about sums up a lot of this thread.
233 - Yes, belated congratulations to Historyboy ate 99 for getting the Guardians advertising in.
It took a little longer than I thought, but we got there in the end.
All I need now is for someone to claim that the European Commission are behind the NOTW story and I’ve collected the full set.
233.If I were a news editor
Item 1 Afghanistan deaths
Item 2 G8
Item 3 Guardian allegations
Item 4 Apparently Michael Jackson has died
Several Hundred posts on this media story, meanwhile British soldiers being killed in an unwinnable war, it’s a fair point to make, if your stomach can’t stand it, perhaps you can switch to another site…
238 - My view is the opposite.
I want Labour to get rid of all their detritus, and the Conservatives to keep all theirs.
the labour hysterics over this really seem to indicate that this is one of their last throws of the dice and with each throw they just keep losing! it’s quite entertaining if you step back from it and just watch.
241 - “I want Labour to get rid of all their detritus”
Does that mean getting rid of yourself?
238.I would have no objection to Mr Mcbride getting a private sector job, just so long as I’m not paying his wages. Maybe he’s learnt from his mistakes.
Southam Observer, with your over-excited tone you have either overdone the Sunny D - or you are Chris Huhne and I claim my trouser press…
242 “it’s quite entertaining if you step back from it and just watch”
Jimbo, its more entertaining if you actually get down and dirty! Labour are like a kid who has saved up his pocket money for months to buy a great big firework, only for it to fall over, shoot along the grass and explode harmlessly in the compost heap…
240 - An unwinnable war that the Tory opposition fully supports and has always supported.
Ming Campbell to chair the inquiry into the Damian Green office raid affair
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8144278.stm
243.
:) 
[244] - So I take it you’d agree that he doesn’t have a suitable track record for a career in politics? Perhaps Coulson doesn’t either?
245 - My tone is one of contempt and disgust. The use of soldiers’ deaths to divert attention from a topic which Tories on here clearly find uncomfortable.
Are you seriously saying that while soldiers are dying in Afghanistan it is not right to discuss anythng else that is happening in this country or elsewhere? If Tim or myself or any other non-Tory had said that during the McBride affair, would you have shrugged your shoulders and said, “yes you are right, Afghanistan is much more important, let’s forget McBride”? Of course you would not. Why? Because the McBride story was good for the Tories and it was important in its own right - even though no-one was killed.
*O/T - Betting Post - Newmarket - Day3*
OK, here are my eagerly awaited betting tips for today. It is an exceptionally difficult card (unlike yesterday’s, which was impossible) so I have restricted myself to just three selection. (No, Jack, not because of lack of funds, just being prudent.;-) )
1.30
248 As well as Ming, “The cross-party panel also includes former home secretaries David Blunkett and Michael Howard and ex-foreign secretary Sir Malcolm Rifkind.”
Now THAT is a panel.
247. Yes, I wasn’t making a party point. If the Tories were in power & after 8 years had still not properly equipped our soldiers properly, with helicopters, or reinforced land vehicles I would be just as upset.
When Britain eventually leaves Afghanistan, the Taliban will still be there, how many British soldiers will have fallen is the only question.
243/249 - I’m encouraged by Camerons determination to cling on to his cling ons
251 No. You were lambasting another poster because THEY couldn’t bring themselves to get mired in political minutiae when our soldiers are dying. Which says more about their priorities than yours or mine. Respect to them.
*O/T - Betting Post - Newmarket - Day3*
OK, here are my eagerly awaited betting tips for today. It is an exceptionally difficult card (unlike yesterday’s, which was impossible) so I have restricted myself to just three selection. (No, Jack, not because of lack of funds, just being prudent.;-) )
1.30 Canwinn 33/1 1pt ew
2.00 Big Audio 5/1 1pt ew
4.20 Master Of Dance 6/1 1pt ew
Good luck. I’ll be back later with all the excuses.
250.If Andy Coulson has tapped anyone’s phone in his present employment he should be fired. If the allegations are the same as those over which he resigned, then he shouldn’t lose a second job, simply because the Guardian has finally caught up.
251. This really is the place to come for faux outrage, isn’t it? And comedy of course (see 241.)
1.30 Canwinn (but won’twinn….)
Good luck anyway - the bookies have to put bread on the table too.
Goodness me, reading the pompous, frothing nonsense from Labourites on this over the last 24 hours has been the funniest thing on this site for weeks. Desperate for some sort of bad story for the Tories they pour all their hatred, desperation, venom, frustration and delusion into what is effectively not a political story and is quite possibly a “non-story” all together. The misinformation and wilfully deliberate innuendo is delightful to behold.
This, frenzied, chaotic, hypocritical and utterley tragic response (summed up perfectly by the ludicrously amusing faux indignation of Southam Observer) not just from the Labour herd on here but from Prezza, Campbell, Clarke and even Brown is sweet music to those hoping for a Conservative government.
Is this it boys..? Is this the best you can do..? Is this really all you have got left to throw at the Conservatives..?
No wonder Dave is so relaxed..
247. I personally think the Tories are wrong to support to war. My view is that we should pull out asap. I’d also like to know how we are affording this war after Browns bankrupted us?
Hackergate now demoted to “Stars ‘may sue’ over phone claims” on BBC website and it doesn’t even figure in the top 10 most popular stories. It’s rather like one of those hurricanes that gets downgraded to a minor squall isn’t it?
Poll: Cameron ‘more honest’ on cuts
ComRes/BBC Poll -
40% think Cameron more honest. Full tables at the page below. Some contradictory positions in there…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/the_daily_politics/8144138.stm
261. To be fair, I’m not sure theres enough Labour supporters around to be able to dub them a “herd”
I suppose if you put the Lib-Dems and Labour supporters in together you may get a “herd” 
260 At least my Ashes bet is looking OK, MM!
263. I think Labour were always going to lose News International Newspapers, the only question was to what extent they would support Cameron. This episode makes it more likely, that Labour will get both barrels.
265. Yes - it’s more like a little band of half-starved scavenging rodents than a herd.
264. Astonishing that 25%, a quarter of the the British electorate, apparently think that Brown is more honest over spending cuts! Sometimes people stupidity leaves you speechless doesn’t it?
THE story if anyone cares to push it is the probably labour links to the guradian in pushing this alleged ‘news’.
Someone had to have acted illegally to get this story, someone politically motivated and quite possib;y l;abour linked.
The laugh is there is a big fuss over 700,000 paid out to somebody over something that happened when Coulson was not even editor of the NoW. So what is the current editor of the NoW doing? Is he not now responsible? Should HE not resign? Are Labour pushing this line? NO Could it be the current editor (formerly editor of the Mirror) is labour supporting??
261 - If you think it is faux indignaiton then it says a whole lot more about you than it does me. I am not a Lbourite and will not be voting Labour in the next election. I happen find Tories on here using the deaths of soldiers to close down discussion on a topic that they find uncomfortable uterly contemptible. I am sorry that you do not.
205. “Re the odds of 4/1 on LDs to finish second in Norwich, Sporting Bet limited me to a maximum of £2. I referred earlier to Sporting as bookmakers. I apologise for this error.”
To be fair, you also said that the bet was “worth a few coppers”. Presumably, they took you at your word!
240
Slight correction (if I may)
“Item 4 Apparently Michael Jackson still dead”
271. repetition - worse than deviation.
256 - If that had been the first time the poster had ever posted on PB you might have a point. But it is not. Deaths in Afghanistan have never previously stopped him/her from commenting and, of course, lambasting political opponents. I suppose it is the sickening hypocrisy that got me.
I always felt Panesar was at his best when Strauss was captain..
Charles Clarke has written to Cameron with a list of specific questions for Coulson.
He’s really getting stuck into this and I bet as a former Home Sec he knows which questions to ask.
The Keens referred to Standards Commissioner.
R5
Guardian Online reports “London firms inundated with worried calls” yet can only point to “Stephens told BBC’s Today programme. “I had two calls yesterday – one from somebody who has been identified by the Guardian as having been hacked and also the private office of somebody who believes they may have been.”"
Two calls?!
Two calls!?
Give it up lads, it’s dead.
Re:271, Oh God, PBc is going to be rather tedious for the next few days whilst Labourbots impotently thrash around bemoaning the failure of their concerted smear operation.
‘faux indignaiton’ is always so unseamly SO. get a grip, plonker.
266 Maybe. If England can knock down the last 6 Aussie wickets for 150, we might still have a game, what with the Aussies batting last on a disintegrating wicket….
274 - In other words, I have an unarguable point. The hypocrisy stinks, doesn’t it?
273 “Item 4 Apparently Michael Jackson still dead”
I still have hope for re-animation when they put his brain back in….
Can I ask, exactly what are we doing in Afghanistan? And at what point will we be able to say “Mission accomplished?” Because I’ve never been able to work out either of these crucial points?
279 - Another sickening hypicrite emerges from the cracks in the sewer.
However, I have noted that the Tory herd has deemed all conversation about all topics can now be dismissed by reference to deaths in Afghanistan. We’ll see how that stacks up next time there is a discussion about something they would like to talk about.
271. You are wrong, repetition doesn’t make you right. You are sickened etc maybe it’s swine flu? Just understand that for some of us who have posted about Afghanistan before, it’s far more important that public discourse is focused on that, than on a media story such as this.
281. No you are a pompous bore who doesn’t know when to give it a rest.
Nice to see the poisoned dwarf out at Cardiff…
272
284 “Another sickening hypicrite emerges…”
You’ll be complaining about Martin Day’s creative spelling next!
Southam Observer, you are a hoot, a better spoof caricature I could not imagine.
Go on admit it….you’re a LibDem aren’t you…?
286 - And so now the insults start to fly. Is there no end to your hypocrisy? What a classic Tory you are.
285 - Is that right? I would find that believable if you had not posted on so many other topics as well.
278 GeoffH - Yes, the Guardian articles are beginning to be hilarious self-parodies. Perhaps they are jealous of the Telegraph’s rather more successful attempt to smear even the most upright MPs like Sir Alan Beith.
This one is particularly amusing:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/jul/09/andy-coulson-hacking-news-world
In comparison, Southam Observer is a beginner when it comes to faux outrage.
I particularly liked the Guardian’s shock horror at the suggestion that a tabloid journalist might make a telephone call claiming to be a doctor. Surely not? Can such things ever have happened?
288 - I feel sorry for Martyn Day on many levels.
292. Assuming Polly’s not at her villa for the next 6 weeks we should get a funny piece from her this evening!
293 - “Labourbots impotently thrash around bemoaning the failure of their concerted smear operation”
It was an observation not a suggestion…stop making a t!t of yourself.
292 - I see the herd has latched onto “faux outrage”. The herd is so imaginative.
279 - This level is what I expected, as whether the individuals like it or not they rely on the tabloids for publicity, if they sue the papers the dirty linen will be aired in public and the tabloids will have a score to settle, just remember Kate Moss she successfully sued the NOTW then they printed a far worse story on the front page the following Sunday.
This story is being driven by Labour, and it’s friend the Gurdian. If/wen the DPP announce that there are no further charges to be brought this story will die.
296 SO - What’s this ‘herd’ thing you mention?
295 - That a few Tories think I may be a tit for observing how sickeningly hypocritical they are causes me very little discomfort to tell you the truth.
291.Feel free to post as you like, I think the reaction of the PB community speaks volumes. Your fake outrage was the real offence. What do you honestly think the media ought to be leading on? If you cannot distinguish between a 2 year old media story vs a week when 9 British soldiers die in an unwinnable war, it’s your judgement which is at fault.
277 - who stole my slice of misery cake and where did they put it?
297 - I wonder …
298- Then why go on and on and on and on and on about it then?
271. To be fair, he said that he couldn’t be motivated to post on this topic while so many were dying in Afghanistan. That’s his viewpoint and he’s entitled to it; he’s not saying that anyone else should stop.
Ironically, when there was a thread on Afghanistan yesterday, at least one of the more leftwing-inclined posters complained that the subject was being changed to shut down debate on Hackergate.
298.To be fair I don’t think all Tories think you are a ‘tit’, and I don’t think the view you are a ‘tit’ is exclusively held by Tories.
292 - You accept that it is likely to be John Whittingdale, a Tory, who will get to ask Mr Coulson the difficult questions, and Mr Coulson will be under oath won’t he.
Its unsustainable to portray this as a simply partisan affair with Whittingdales involvement.
299 - The reaction of the Tory herd does indeed speak volumes. I will continue to point out their hypocrisy as and when it emerges - which is pretty regularly. This time it was particularly sickening and so I actually got angry as well, which is unusual. But there you go.
302 - It’s the nature of the hypocrisy this time, rather than the hypocrisy itself. The idea that you or any other member of the herd would have accepted it was wrong to talk about the Damian McBride affair because Britishg servicemen were dying in Afghanistan is questionable, to say the least.
280 - The wicket really looks like it will be horrible by Sunday. If Broad could bowl a bit better we could be in here. This afternoon is crucial. I shall be gnawing my fingers while doing a little freelance work I have managed to pick up.
Might stick a couple of pennies on Peter’s picks. He can’t have as bad a day as yesterday. I trust his previous form.
Well its all getting a bit too nasty for me. See you later guys.
305.Lovely to hear from your sort. To be fair I don’t think all Tories regard you as a T*t, or that the view you have behaved like one is exclusive to Tories.
305 SO - Would you be kind enough either to point out in what way I have been hypocritical, since apparently I am a member of the ‘herd’ you refer to, or to apologise for the accusation?
297 Here we go….
‘The herd’ is a blanket title applied to those posters who dare to make any anti-government comment or a remark which is perceived as being supportive of Cameron. A member of the herd is by default a Tory regardless of their real political beliefs. It’s a form of abuse much loved by those guardians of truth, tim and Southam Observer.
309. SO’s not a t*t but a tw*t.
223 Tim, as usual you twist the truth. Yes I blamed Brown for holding the G8 in Central london on the day of an England football match and yes I consider he has that man’s blood on his hands because the death of someone in such circumstances was easily predictable.
I do not recollect a single Tory on PB criticising me for saying so.
303 - Except that it does not stop him posting about a range of subjects on a regular basis.
287….PtP i have just got £100/25 with Sportingbet. do you have some issues with them?
303. I think you need to distinguish between the paid bots and the echo chambers who pick up their lines and regurgitate them.
291. You are a spoof are you not?
Come on..this nonsense from you cannot be serious…
This is not a signifcant political story and you and other Labourites are desperately trying to breathe life into the dying embers.
You are not seriously expecting us to believe you are ’sickened’ by someone suggesting that real stories like the growing death toll of British soldiers overseas is more important than your chaotic ramping.
I am struggling with how various Tory posters are struggling with the blindingly obvious.
“Its partisan hatchetry” they cry - yes, which is why the Conservative chair of the Select Committee has stepped in to convene an emergency session next week to investigate, and is to call Coulson to explain himself.
“Its a non-story, no action will be taken” apparently. And yet we have the Director of Public Prosecutions launch an investigation, and the Press Complaints Commission, and the Select Committee. Yates made his statement yesterday, and events have moved on a pace since.
“Coulson did nothing wrong” - he doesn’t need to have done anything wrong to be forced out. Mandy was forced out over the Hinduka passport affair and was later cleared of the allegation. Its about how much embarassment you cause the boss. Apparently Cameron needs Coulson so he will stay. Better hope that noone sues then, or that the allegations don’t turn out to be true.
The bits about it being a Murdoch paper, or about Couldson’s job are frankly red herrings. Would the Select Committee be having its hearings and calling him to the stand had Coulson retired from public life instead? Of course they would.
O/T for PtP.
I’m still with you, at least with a fewer number of tips we will lose less
What do you think of Ancien Regime in the 3.10 and Mutheeb in the 2.35?
236 Runnymede, I wont get excited about it unless Anna Soubry’s majority appraoches the 9000-10000 the Tories used to achieve there pre 1997 as it will then revert to a safe Tory seat and hopefully Dr Palmer’s memory will quickly be erased.
311 - Do you believe that it was inappropriate to discuss the McBride affair in such great detail when British soldiers were fighting and dying in Afghanistan?
308 “Might stick a couple of pennies on Peter’s picks. He can’t have as bad a day as yesterday.”
Oh yes he can…
318 - I do not expect you to be anything other than desperate to avoid discussion of a topic that is uncomfortable for Tories.
319.Conservative chair of a Labour dominated committee. Hearings next week as Parliament is soon to go on a 13 week holiday. DPP investigating information he’s had for 2 years. PCC launches investigation…it has no remit over Coulson. Apart from that it was a sound post.
327. should read 321
314 - I am regularly accused of being part of the Labour herd on here, even though I am not a Labour supporter.
323. Even he loses narrowly, his memory will soon fade, methinks.
325 - I ruddy hope not I’ve just spent a few of my good lady’s pennies!
312 - Its not a blanket term, I specifically exclude intelligent Tories such as Richard Nabavi and David “The Herdsman” Herdson.
its a term that decribes the bovine empty headed groupthinkers who pop up and post the same stuff about nokias and bunkers etc.
314 - I seem to recall even SeanT was sickened by your comment.
326.A civil servant in the Prime Minister’s office smearing the wives of opposition MPs, yes that is a story. If 9 British soldiers had died that week, it wouldn’t/shouldn’t have got the traction it did.
328. Are you a ‘floating voter’
:) ?
Southern Observer I’ve never accussed you of being part of the Labour herd, never noticed you before to be fair. Just take a step back and think about the bigger picture 9 British soldiers dead…2 year old media story being raked up for purely partisan political reasons.
Do tabloids need to obey the law? yes Will Andy Coulson be able to make them do that? no. He resigned his position, What more do you want from him? Prosecuted? If he is then virtually every newspaper editor for the last 20 years would have to be in the dock with him.
For partisan reasons he’s being singled out, whilst bigger stories are going on in the world. Think about it.
Southern Observer, I do not follow your point having rread earlier postings.
I first raised this morning the deaths of two more fine service personnel when I heard it on the news. I have not seen any PBer, not even Tim try to shut down discussion on these deaths either by ramping up or cooling down the NOTW story.
It just seems that this morning our PB community did not wish to discuss in any great depth these additional tragic deaths, possibly because we discussed them at some length yesterday when the toll was 7 dead in 7 days.
We Tories did generally support the removal of the Taleban. It had universal international support. What we do not agree with is this Government pretending it has sent our troops there fully equipped when we all know the reason our forces have suffered such high casualites is because our vehicles in situ are largely not armoured or insufficiently armoured unlike our American colleagues.
I even likened it yesterday to the position the Germans found themselves in during their offensive in later 1944 which became known as the Battle of the Bulge. Advancing Germans carrying hosepipes to syphon any petrol or diesel they found when the Americans they opposed were so well equipped their commanders could even fly in supplies of Christmas puddings!
So please, do not accuse us of something we have not done.
333 - “even though I am not a Labour supporter”
The sublime to the ridiculous and on to incredulous in one easy sentence.
Glad to see the herd being actively challenged.
Any non-Tory viewpoints have been drowned out recently by a group of 2nd division Tory cheerleaders. Has made life here rather dull.
pb.com’s usp is it’s mix of views.
318 If Sporting Bet have an issue with me, they’re not saying, Graham. I spoke to them just now but they had no intelligible explanation. It’s odd, because I rarely bet with them. Looks like I’m going to bet even less with them in future.
323 If you are so outraged by the perceived use of the deaths of British soldiers for political point scoring, don’t you think your post about McBride is even the slightest bit hypocritical?
326 - fabulous post. Whittingdale “the Tory chair of a Labour dominated committee”. Yes, he really sounded like he had been forced into action by the Labour members when he was on air yesterday. “They made me do it miss!”. DPP had the information for two years? Yes, we know that - a major plank of the Guardian expose is that much of this info was available to the powers that be when the original hackgate investigation was ongoing, and was mysteriously swept under the carpet.
But I think your very best point was saved until last - “the PCC have no power over Coulson”. Correct. they do however have power over all the journalists at the NOTW. I imagine that a number of them will still be there from a few years ago when all this was going on. You appear to be deliberately ignorant of a rather basic concept - PCC investigates hack, structure and culture of the time comes under the spolight, chain of command with Coulson in the editors chair questioned.
I made the point earlier that Coulson doesn’t have to be directly fingered to become dead man walking. All thats needed is evidence that all this went on with either his knowledge and therefore concent (tacit or explicit) or that he genuinely knew nothing (as he claimed when resigning as editor!) and he is toast.
But don’t worry! If nothing whatsoever happened then you ot have nothing to fear from these investigations which you so hilariously try to insist actually aren’t happening.
320 Ian Bailey - “Coulson did nothing wrong” - he doesn’t need to have done anything wrong to be forced out.
That’s what I thought yesterday morning, and why I thought he would (and probably should) resign.
However, the very rapid disintegration of the Guardian’s story, which is now shown to have been grossly exaggerated, coupled with the concerted and over-the-job comments from Ann Clwyd, Charles Clarke, John Prescott, etc have turned the narrative.
337.Jonathon, you are 1st division Labour, about as good as they get, thankyou.
321 Blue Rog
I filed both races under ‘too difficult’.
In the 3.10, I would say the favorite is eminently opposable, but I could nominate six suspects without difficulty, Mutheeb amongst them.
*************** Betting Post ************
Bit late but here is my 4 horses for today at Newmarket
Mohtasher 13:30
Emperor Claudius 14:00
Scenic Blast 15:10
Pictorial 16:55
266, I’d ignore the ComRes DP poll results, to be honest. If you want to pay heed to them, remember they probably have pro-Labour anti-Tory bias/
I’ve backed Spinners End in the 1.30.
345/346 PtP and Malcom.
Do we have competition here?
Mind you Malcom’s tip yesterday brought in the money
339 if people who support the Tories were not constantly referred to in derogatory terms like ‘herd’ then perhaps we could get into some decent debate.
Unfortuantely thats not how it seems to work. As such, having a laugh and fighting back against socialist bigotries is the only viable option.
346. Excuse the grammar above was rushing a bit. Not expecting anybody to bet on these , just since Peter suggested I should have a go after my winner yesterday. Two of them are favourites and so not very good in any case.
348 John L - Very appropriate
343 - your comment “very rapid disintegration of the Guardian’s story, which is now shown to have been grossly exaggerated” is exactly the kind of deliberate ignorance with reality I was talking about.
A funny kind of disintegration that involves 3 seperate investigations being started and heralds a fun week of committee hearings to come. I know that you desperately wish this story was dead, but the recent developments and the 1400 news articles listed in Google News suggests otherwise.
You must know this. Are you telling an outright lie when you say its disintegrating, or have you persuaded yourself that black is actually white?
353 Ian - I thought you were trying to have a sensible debate, which might have been interesting. Oh well.
Moo
351 I’ll happily stand aside, Malc. Just saw my 33/1 shot fail by a nose to take 3rd place, despite having his run blocked. That’s the form I’m in.
342. Neither of us know what private conversations the committee have had, he’s a Tory, chairing a Labour dominated committee. The fact he’s a Tory shouldn’t carry any more weight therefore.
Perhaps Mr Coulson has agents working inside the DPPs office, and he forced them to drop it?
Worst case scenario Coulson knew his staff had used illegal methods to gain information which, at the trial was ruled not to have a public interest defence, he resigned!!!! He cannot repeat the offence, and has taken the punishment.
When have I said investigations aren’t happening? Could you quote me saying that somewhere?
I’m sure the PCC will issue a damning report which will rattle Fleet St! Inspector Yates made the position clear, the DPP is merely reviewing evidence already submitted.
Now why not turn your laser gaze on an important topic?
342: ‘All thats needed is evidence that … [Coulson] genuinely knew nothing (as he claimed when resigning as editor!) and he is toast.’
Sorry, are you saying that Coulson should be sacked from his current job if it was revealed that he was incompetent in his previous job, which he resigned from? I’m probably misunderstanding you but that’s how it comes accross.
353 Ian Bailey. The original Guardian piece talked about “thousands” of victims. The Guardian articles the following day talks about “hundreds” and Robert Peston’s piece on the BBC today talks about “75 individuals identified by police as having their phone messages monitored by the private investigator, Glenn Mulcaire”.
It seems to me there may have been an exagerration in the original article.
320. Ian Bailey.
The one illusion you make is that there is something new about this. It is old news and has already been investigated by the Information Commissioner, the Police, the DPP, the PCC and the Select Committee in 2006. The Information Commissioners and the Select Committee reports are available online and I posted links to them last night.
Now unless someone can produce new evidence (in which case why hasn’t it already been reported and there is nothing new in the Guardian’s ‘revelations’?) what is the point of wasting yet more taxpayers money going through the motions to produce the same results (they are not going to take on virtually the whole of the dead tree press).
Haven’t Parliament and the rest got more useful things to do?
O/T PtP and malcomg
Honours even after the first
361 Yes….no score draw.
223 - Ed Balls and Chris Huhne both have the same characteristic of both being extremely clever yet also so nauseatingly self-regarding, arrogant and dislikeable it is almost impossible not to have the urge to punch them whenever they are on the screen!
353 - To be fair, there is one review of an investigation (DPP) and two reopening of investigations. None are brand new investigations. The Select Committee one strikes me as the most interesting in terms of where this story goes. At the moment we have new allegations but one person has said they don’t see the substance. Also, the Guardian article seems founded on supposition and “he says,she says”, but it is generally a good newspaper, so they wouldn’t have run it without a belief in their providence. If they present their evidence to the Select C in full, then it will be interesting to see what’s in there. If they refuse, then their motives are more interesting. If this goes nuclear will other papers look into the Observer and so on..
Will Tom Watson get on the committee before the hearings?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2009/jul/10/mcbride-watson-coulson-phone-hacking
359: ‘The original Guardian piece talked about “thousands” of victims.’
Yes, Nick Davies, who wrote the original Guardian article, revealed (or let slip) on Newsnight yesterday that the ‘thousands’ bit was based on an off-hand remark that some copper had made to him. Amazing how it got traction though: on the C4 News Jon Snow was talking about thousands of people being hacked as if it were a simple and established fact.
363, Huhne isn’t as bad as Balls.
Funny watching him stamp his feet and cwy in the Commons.
365, Snow considers not telling the world when Harry’s on the front line equivalent to Soviet censorship. The man’s a clown.
358 - I made the comparison earlier to Mandleson’s 2nd resignation over the Hinduja brothers passports. In that case allegations were made, his position became a political embarassment and he had to go. It later transpired that he hadn’t done what was alleged and that he was innocent.
Whether or not Coulson has done anything isn’t the question, its all about pressure. If the noise keeps growing and the suspicision continues pointing in his direction, then whether or not he’s done anything ceases to be the issue - its about is his position
credible and is he embarassing the boss.
360 - the story is partyly about who hacked who, and partly about how the previous investigation ignored so much evidence and chose to insist that only Goodman knew anything. THAT is what the PCC are investigating. Whittingdale is recalling Les Hinton to ask if he wants to recant his previous evidence. I KNOW its already been investigated - the new evidence pointing to a cover-up is a large part of the story. What you appear to be doing is aping Yates - “with respect to the Goodman case all evidence was looked at and the conclusions still stand”. Yes, and what about all these other bugs and the people involved in those?
AQ panel:
Clare Short, Pat McFadden, minister for business, innovation and skills, Green Party MEP Jean Lambert and former Chancellor Lord Norman Lamont
So a former minister, a present minister, a Green and Lamont. I don’t know how the BBC gets away with stuffing its politics programmes with ardent rightwingers.
Nine soldiers in nine days looks terrible when you compare it to previously. It’s also the sort of thing to jog people’s memory on something they try to push to the back of their mind. Is the equipment they are being provided with (or not provided with) a contributory factor?
Anyway, who do we have as defence secretary in this difficult period?
Bumbling Bob Ainsworth. Sigh….
365. The reporting of this story has been very poor.
The number of victims has been massively exaggerated, the Police have said there is no evidence that many of those named were ever ‘hacked’. Virtually every report yesterday talked of mobile phone hacking, when it turns out it is voice-mail, so nothing like as technically difficult as implied by the reports. Then there is the focus on the News of the World when there are literally a couple of dozen publications and hundreds of other journalists involved.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story eh?
If you really want to get het up by a threat to privacy consider the effects of the IMP and mass surveillance.
215/217: No, I don’t think people who do something wrong should be barred from future employment. Nor do I think Coulson should be drummed out of the Tory party (or McBride from Labour, as many here were arguing a few weeks ago). I don’t even know if Coulson *has* done anything wrong. My point, which I see nobody has disputed, is that Cameron’s use of the phrase ’second chance’ implies that he does think so, at the same time as he’s sort of maintaining the opposite by saying he’s had assurances, etc. That ambiguity will need at some point to be clarified if the issue is to be put to bed.
As for the question about editors of other papers - I think anyone in any job at all who breaks the law routinely as part of their work should resign (and be prosecuted). Don’t you?
356. Peter, I see I am back to normal , my first two horses not even in the first 3.
372 - I know this thread is dead, but jeez, what a waste of effort reading it all.
372 :”I don’t even know if Coulson *has* done anything wrong. My point, which I see nobody has disputed, is that Cameron’s use of the phrase ’second chance’ implies that he does think so”
Well, I’ll dispute it. It means nothing of the sort. It means that a chap who resigned one job, for whatever reason, is not debarred from further employment, a ’second chance’. It implies nothing more.
The fact that you infer otherwise shows you believe in guilt without evidence.
375 - Geoff, why did he resign the first time then? From what I have read in every news source it was because as editor he had a member of staff illegally tapping Prince Charles - an offence for which he went to jail.
That is a FACT. Either he knew about it and was therefore complicit, or he knew nothing and was therefore ignorant of what went on in his team. Either way he resigned because the offence HAD been committed.
Are you suggesting that Coulson resigned because his hack wasn’t guilty? The court disagrees. He therefore resigned because of what happened on his team - he either was complicit or ignorant of that. Either way, he WAS guilty.
Do you always split hairs for the sake of political point-scoring?
376, calling someone guilty when their only offence is ignorance is defensible, but misleading.
If Coulson turned a blind eye to what his journalists were doing, then it’s reasonable to call him guilty. If, at the other extreme, he made reasonable efforts to enforce standards, but his journalists actively deceived him, then he’s a victim of their fraud.
There are, of course, many intermediate options, all the shades of grey between being duped and criminal negligence. None of us know where in that spectrum Coulson’s behaviour lay, so none of us can justly make absolute statements about his guilt or innocence.
207. PtP. I had a much better day at the races today. Circumstances prevented me from following any of your tips…
Better luck next time