Aso clings on to power - for now
July 19th, 2009
But Finance Minister & over 100 MPs wanted him to quit
These are desperate times for the ruling party – the PM is deeply unpopular, polls indicate it will lose the next election badly, there has been a messy cabinet reshuffle and there is a groundswell among the party’s MPs for a new leader to take over.
All of this is very familiar from British politics, but is currently being played out in Tokyo as well as London. The LDP, one of the world’s traditional governing parties and ruling Japan for nearly all of the last 50 years, is seeking desperately to cling on to power ahead of a general election that is now set to take place on Sunday 30th August, following its defeat in last Sunday’s Tokyo Metropolitan election, where it failed to become the largest party for the first time since 1965.
Whether Labour here will see its third PM this term is a moot point, but the LDP (Liberal Democratic Party, but rather more to the right than the UK Lib Dems) is already on its fourth - Koizumi, Abe, Fukuda, Aso - and looks to have narrowly avoided a fifth leader this term, as Aso has called a general election before he could be ousted as party leader – and news that he turned to a former comedian for help is surely the sound of a barrel being scraped in the last-chance saloon.
Finance Minister Yosano was among the more than 100 MPs who were thought to be in favour of ditching Aso ahead of the election, but Tuesday’s meeting of the parliamentary LDP will be an informal not a formal one, meaning that no vote can be taken on the leadership – those seeking to have a vote fell short, according to party officials, of the 128 signatures required to force a formal meeting. The House of Representatives will be formally dissolved shortly afterwards, on Tuesday afternoon.
The opposition DPJ (Democratic Party of Japan) gave the LDP a brief respite when leader Ozawa became embroiled in a corruption scandal earlier this year, but the DPJ managed to recover, with Ozawa falling on his sword, and the party picking Yukio Hatoyama as the new leader in just a few weeks. For the DPJ, with all the troubles of the LDP and Japan’s economic woes, 2009 is what 2007 was for the SNP - an “if they can’t win now, then when?” election.
The LDP is probably set to lose power regardless of who their leader is - but unlike Labour here still might, they’ve been unable to try a “hail mary” pass towards the end of the game with a fresh face that might just change things. However, with the innate conservatism of the Japanese electorate, the election result might not be reflective of the opinion polls. As we’ve seen in the UK, telling a pollster you’ll vote for a party and actually putting a cross in their box on the ballot paper are two different things – but the smart money now must surely be on the once-mighty LDP losing their iron grip on power.
Double Carpet
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First
最初の！even
Great post, DC!
“with Ozawa falling on his sword” hope that’s not literal truth.
ティムは、完全なマスかきです
Anyone going off topic gets an Asbo
What is scope (if any) for Japanese voters to vote tactically?
Good to have your international thread back, DC.
Thanks again for an excellent Sunday article on politics outside the UK DC.
DC, apologies for going O/T, but I just had to share with the PBee’s Does someone in the Labour party by election campaign team have a sense of humour, or could this resonate?
ConHom, CentreRight - Labour wants the people of Norwich North to vote for the fox
‘Vote Labour….or the fox gets it’
4. Smear!
You’re smearing you smearer
It might not be a bad idea if Gordon Brown consulted a comedian. Once the proverbial had been ripped out of the proposed policies or the suggested You-Tube offering in a 20 minute stand-up routine, he might just be slightly less gung-ho about making policy on the hoof…
And are Japanese voters likely to be more influenced by result of:
1. The Ashes
2. British Open
3. Jacko toxicology report
9 But with a certain class…
Thanks for the comments in both languages!!
There’s info on the electoral system here - http://electionresources.org/jp/#ASPECTS - not sure how much tactical voting scope there’ll be in a system with a large PR element, but possibly some at the margins.
Contributions from Japan experts to this thread warmly welcomed.
FPT NOTW commment on Sarah Brown editorship.
“This just indicates how low the Govt have sunk.
The PM´s wife with ” The Screws ” , even the odious Cherie never stooped so low.
It is said a country gets a Government it deserves…”
14 - Vote For Andy Coulsons Boss.
There is no one to pass the hail Mary to. The LDP is a broad coalition - some of its policies are near Marxist, others far to the right. It encompasses pro-militarists and strident anti-militarists. It has those who are pro-American and those who want a more independent position.
In this mess, the government is facing yet another economic crisis. It faces a huge government debt and the prospect of an ageing population. The great fiscal stimuli of the 90s saddled Japan with lots of debt and an anaemic economy. The Japanese stock market is at levels first seen around 1984. (Imagine that to be 1000 on the FTSE 100).
There are no obvious leaders, no obvious policy prescriptions. The issue is that the DPJ has no solutions and their leadership is equally vacuous.
14.In the week when the paper is before HofC Select Committee…I think the moral compass was nicked by the cleaner
Better than Damian McBride’s……
8, ChristinaD - judging from comments it appears to be effective.
8 I think the desperation is showing:
VOTE LABOUR - FOR FOX SAKE!!!
8
That really boggles the mind. Labour truly have gone insane.
8.Is the fox the LibDem candidate?
8 Christina - Brilliant! That will be worth a few thousand votes for the Tories in the rural parts of the constituency.
Years ago I worked for US political consultants who had some long-range business associates in Japan, a small group of consultants connected with one of the factions of the LDP.
Unfortunately the association ended right about the time I came on board. But I did hear a bit about it from the US folks.
What the Japanese assosiates were interested in, was tapping American political techniques with respect to TV, mail and other voter contact strategies, and planning, message and media.
Am interested to know, what is the current status of political consulting and the like in Japanese politics and elections today?
I wonder if that poster was produced by the same genius who thought of using a Bentley to bash Timpson in Crewe?
23, RN - but how many “rural parts” are there in Norwich North? After redistribution isn’t it an urban/suburban seat?
Basil Brush was Never threatened with that sort of Boom Boom!
25
Indeed. I don’t know much about Norwich North specifically, but I’d expect that certainly in the surrounding areas, there would be much sympathy for reversing the fox hunting ban.
Of course, I was just thinking that making it look like you’re threatening to kill a cute little fox unless people vote for you is not the best way of getting votes. And given this lot, we can so believe they’d actually do it.
19.SSI. I just had to laugh. Off out for a walk with the family, the sun has finally come out for what seems like the first time in weeks. Just had to wait for the golf to finish, I really hoped Watson would do it.
Seas Shanty (fpt)
Noted with thanks. I’ll lump on Hillary, methinks!
All the best
PtP
The upcoming election will also see the retirement of former LDP PM Junichiro Koizumi, who had promised to retire at the next election. However, his supporters will have the opportunity to vote for his son in his constituency, continuing a long standing tendency towards a hereditary democracy. Koizumi himself was a third generation Diet Member, both his father and grandfather had served in the cabinet.
Stewart Cink wins!
Obviously Labour with that Fox campaign are much to the sound of Gunfire - Boom Boom!
If the Labour candidate wins (Very Unlikely) I can see him being taunted with Basil Brush jibes! Boom Boom!
Japan seems to have had a PM roundabout recently… Koizumi till 2006, Abe till 2007, Fukuda till 2008, and now Aso (almost definitely till 2009)…
Completely unacceptable state of affairs. As we in Britain know all too well, leaders need to be elected rather than selected to have a realistic chance.
re: war graves & rememberances, highly recommend the movie “A Foreign Field” starring Alec Guiness, Leo McKern, Edward Hermann, Jeanne Moreau and Lauren Bacall.
Plot revolves around two old D-Day vets, rivals in young love, traipsing around Normandy in search of old memories. They are not alone. Movie is by turns hillarious, serious and surprising.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Foreign_Field
DC - Why no coverage of the Mauritanian Presidential election that took place yesterday? What’s happening to pbc: it really is appalling.
30, PtP - given my track record was going to recommend Eliot Spitzer!
34. Yes, only John Major & Super Mac have been succesful in winning an election after a change of PM and an interval. Eden won an election but he called it almost straight away.
24. SSI. Japan’s different. There are no clear policy/ideological differences. Some parts of the LDP make the JCP (Japan Communist Party) look moderate. Others are diehard deregulators. The vast majority are somewhere in between. So it’s hard to get a party identification - when you vote for an LDP member are you voting for the roughly slightly right of centre policy you end up with, or the virulently protectionist/deregulationist view of the local diet member?
Also because of the way that the LDP’s leadership works - basically a maximum of two terms of two years - to share out the spoils between the different factions, there is no “leader”, there are lots of leaders. This means there is no “human” focus to the campaign a la US Presidential or UK GEs.
The one exception to the rule was Koizumi, who didnt play the factional game, but was enormously successful in connecting with the common man. But, Aso, Fukuda etc are all machine pols.
Most individual diet members rely on powerful organised groups known as support groups or koenkai to get them elected. Only in the cities is this overcome by floating voters. This is why so many diet members are related to previous diet members.
British Open - this year, as last year, the geezer is beaten but undefeated!
Congragulations to Stewart Cink and Tom Watson!
On foxhunting…
The poster is stupidly crass. And it’s just not an important issue in the grand scheme of things.
Nevertheless, I am very uncomfortable with the Conservative relish for hunting. I just can’t see the need to glorify cruelty. If culls needs to be done they need to be done, but we shouldn’t make a sport of it.
Furthermore, I don’t think ‘tradition’ justifies itself in all things. In small things like costumes for the Speaker, it does very little harm to preserve these quaint old ways. However, as a country, we have got rid of capital punishment (for example) despite it having a long tradition in British history, because it is not right for the times we live in. I feel similarly about hunting.
Of course, like most Labour laws, the hunting ban was appallingly badly framed and concocted.
And obviously many feel differently about the issue.
However, one thing to bear in mind. The key swing group in elections tends to be women. Women are more likely to be put off by hunting than men for obvious reasons. This is, of course, probably not the case of the many fine Conservative women on PB. And any effect is going to be very very marginal. But still…
This isn’t going to make a difference in NN. But I still think hunting is barbaric.
41.He says eating his bacon sandwich…
36, JL - Was just thinking of Mauritania.
From wiki:
“Partial results on 19 July, with 92% of votes counted, showed Abdel Aziz with a narrow first-round majority of 52.2%; his supporters celebrated in the streets of Nouakchott. Boulkheir and Daddah, the main opposition candidates, trailed distantly with 16.63% and 13.89% respectively. Mansour had 4.66% and Vall had 3.78%. Also on 19 July, Boulkheir, Daddah, Vall, and Meimou jointly denounced the results as fraudulent. Boulkheir said, “We refuse to recognize these results and call on the international community to create a commission to investigate to expose this manipulation.”
34. wibbler. In each case the incoming PM won an election within his own party - becoming President of the LDP is the first step to becoming PM. Each election was contested, Abe beat Aso, Fukuda beat Aso, Aso beat Yosano. A fat lot of good it did any of them…
41 Agree largely with the sentiment-alright,I’m a ‘townie’,who regards an urban fox as something to go ‘aah’ at (there’s a lot of them round my neck of the woods).
One interesting point that a Tory friend in his 60s made-even if a fox is not killed,the hunt causes the foxes to so displaced as to slow their breeding-maybe a humane way could be found to stop rural foxes congregating too much and breeding like rabbits
41 & previous - Fox poster
Would like to hear from some either in the constituency or with good local knowledge.
IF there is indeed little true rural component, and given this is a university town, then the poster could indeed be effective. Real issue might be, how much?
My gut guess is that more folks (regardless of party) will find it amusing (like ChristinaD) than angering.
What I thought of immediate of course was the famous Harvard Lampoon picture, which was something like, “Buy the magazine or the puppy get’s it” which showed a picture of some weirdo (likely the editor) holding a gun to the head of a cute beagle puppy.
Charles Clarke Panicks over Norwich by-election:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5864469/Charles-Clarke-Gordon-Brown-and-expenses-to-blame-for-Norwich-North-crisis.html
46 On Friday evening,a quarter of a mile from my front door I met a friend’s girlfriend,walking a 10 week old German Shepherd puppy-he was an adorable ball of fluff -I value my life too much to tell her about that magazine photo
Mauritania is interesting because of the possiblity - but how possible? - that the country may be actually be making a transition to democracy.
How likely is it that Abdul Azez in Mauritania is following path similar to that of Jerry Rawlings in Ghana?
23 - Isn’t there a majority of people against hunting in rural areas?
I can’t get wound up by this issue, the fundamentalists on both sides turn me off.
I do however think it is hilarious that the Tories allowed themselves to have this pinned on them.
And for extra comedic impact, Hague announced it to the Horse and Hounds.
The Foreign Secretary announced it to the Horse and Hounds.
The foxhunting issue is so small that it won’t affect my vote in the slightest. I seriously doubt it will affect the vote of more than 1 in 300 if that. It is completely desperate of Labour to seriously use this as a campaigning issue.
It just makes me slightly uncomfortable.
47 I met said Charles Clarke last autumn ,at Bournemouth Pier-he must be 6ft 2 1/2 and 18-19 stone,so I would’nt want to be around if he farted!
(It WOULD register on the Richter Scale 
)
I like the Fox poster, or at least it amuses me. I don’t know if I’d run it (although with substantial Green vote maybe there is a vote to be had) but at least it’s different, adds a bit of spice and interest.
50 As I like traditional pub names,nothing wrong with ‘Horse and Hounds’ as the name of a boozer-many pubs are great landmarks,part of our society,and one day I will join CAMRA!
32 - Graham.
Well done on that and thanks for pointing me to Skybet’s odds.
You seem to know about golf
I know sod all, but my patented
“Bet against the Patriotic numpty money” strikes again
A fantastic distorted market this morning.
48, PWHfwuvL - excellent point! Is ChristinaD a cat person?
Thing that gets me, is how often politicos the world over are trying to frame the debate in exactly the terms of “do this or the puppy gets it”.
OF COURSE they do NOT say that THEY will shot the puppy. Rather that the opposition will. Or that historical forces, tragic necessity or a meteor from outer space will do the job.
But message is the same: make a hard/distasteful choice because otherwise worse will happen.
45
The urban fox seems to suffer from the mange, and the ones I’ve seen your more likely to go uuuurgh!
I’ve a dog fox that hangs around the fence, he’s eyed up the bin a few times but never actually had the nerve to have-a-go.
I’m surrounded by riders, some of whom have been hunters, but it doesn’t seem to be much of an issue now, the heat seems to have gone out of it.
SSI
I’ve no local knowledge so may have things wrong but NN would best be described as suburban and commuter than either urban or rural.
It’s not a university constituency either with according to UK Polling Report only 2.2% students and 12.4% graduates. Both of which would be way below national average.
I can’t imagine many voters there, it being a white working class and lower middle class constituency, being too bothered either way by foxes. People are more interested at the moment about jobs etc.
I wonder though if the poster is aimed more at potential Green voters than the normal Lab-Con swing voters?
悪魔の双子のガッブルとティムは、ＰＢ.ｃｏｍの最低です。
57 Horses for courses-there is good and bad in everything,I believe-I have had a male fox and vixen mate on the lawn of my back garden-I was very polite and looked away-I never got to see the cubs.(There is a church 150 yards east-north-east of where I live,with extensive,and overgrown grounds-it is well known a whole colony of urban foxes reside there)
56 - you’d be surprised how many people in rural areas are against fox hunting because their pet cat has been shredded when the hounds go through their area.
I didn’t realise this until about a decade ago when a friend of mine decribed his rural Welsh childhood, and watching his pet cat get ripped apart in a field behind his house.
I always thought the twits in their red coats were amusing.
He hated them with a passion.
54, PWHetc - re: names, do you know that in the US there is a company calling itself “Red Baron Pizza”. Which is a rather unusual tribute to a former enemy (by way of Charles Shultz, “Peanuts” and Snoopy)
So was wondering by any chance if there was a pub anywere in Great Britain called “The Desert Fox”? Seeing as how he was among the most popular generals of WWII with the British public (think that’s pretty well documented).
56 I know the puppy would ‘never get it’-are not Americans even more doting over their pets than the British?
I have no knowledge of Christina D’s tastes in pets- she has never expressed a preference,and lives c.600 miles away from me!
62 Off the top of my head I cannot help you,my friend-doubtless wikipedia or other google searches will answer your question-my inkling is ‘Yes’ to your initial question
50. Tim
‘Isn’t there a majority of people against hunting in rural areas’
No but there is a large majority in both urban and rural areas who don’t care one way or another and generally are sick of both sides.
I suppose it matters to a few thousand rustics in posh Conservative areas and a few thousand wet liberals in posh urban areas.
58, another Richard - thanks very much for the factiods. They suggest as you say that “don’t shot the Fox” would likely have little direct impact on way or another.
But point made by 53, corporeal still applies I think.
62
Not that I know of, but the Americans did have a warship called the USS Rommel named after him I believe.
p.s.
Most German Generals didn’t think much of him, but then the military are inclined to be very critical of everybody.
65 - Are their polls?
If what you say is true, the Tories decision is even funnier.
65 I assure you north-west Charminster,Bournemouth,is respectable lower-middle class surburbia but NOT posh-and often quite reactionary in its social attitudes (although becoming more cosmopolitan with lots of university students in local accomodation)
See another Sarah Brown story:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/gordon-brown/5860153/Fruit-and-veg-from-Downing-Street-on-sale.html
Smeargate lives on!
69 And has some council estates that,well,keep the boys in blue busy!
I won’t comment on Japanese politics but will blow my own horn (*ahem*) by showing you some of the quirky, cartoony things I encountered there:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11158835@N04/page3/
Gordon Brown has more expenses problems:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5572421/MPs-expenses-Gordon-Browns-500-bill-for-painting-a-summer-house.html
69. Patrick. Your moniker seems to change regularly. Will you (still) probably vote Labour next time?
70 I must admit I find Sarah Brown very attractive!
62 Re Corzine yes it’d be a blow to Obama but only really I think if VA went as well. I mean it’s not like in the short term NJ will shift at a Presidential level or be influenced much at the Presidency in the short term by a Governor Christie unlike VA which could well feel the pull of a GOP Governor in 2012. Provided VA is held it should be easy to hang everything round Corzine’s neck and shrug it away. A double GOP victory would be a problem though.
In the medium term though a Gov Christie would be big for the GOP the fact that he is clearly not a guy who spends his time at Limbaugh’s feet is a plus. As is the for the GOP his Noo Joisey accent which will deflect the Dixie party label some Democrats are pushing. Plus with such a low bar set in NJ unless he is nuts he can go a long way to erasing the competency issue that “heckuva job Brownie” left the Republicans.
I live in the countryside and I couldn’t give two hoots about fox hunting either way.
However, not being an illiberal leftie I do think what people decide to do, be it dressing up and riding across fields on horses as their dogs chase and kill foxes, is pretty much up to them. I mean, it doesn’t do anything for me personally, but of thats what people enjoy doing then fair enough. One can’t get too uptight about a fox. I mean, it IS just a fox after all….
*Waits to be tied up and shot*
74 Too early to say-if not Labour,Lib Dem,as my local Tory MP (Tobias Ellwood),very nice guy though he is,does have some views on the Social Chapter and other too-free-market views that I cannot stomach voting for -I hasten to add I have met and chatted several times with Tobias,and he is a bloody nice guy-shame about certain parts of his party!
Forgive me going off topic but Wibbler made an interesting point about hunting. Though in itself not a deal breaker as part of an election strategy that includes IHT private education and privilege it could become so.
It’s not just it’s urban unpopularity but it feeds some unpleasant Tory steriotypes. Even today the Observer had a piece on private school life chasnces and class. I’d be surprised if this isn’t a significant part of Labours election strategy.
53 It’s good gallows humour certainly.
75.Patrick - Yes i would probably have ‘done her’ but would you really want to go there after Gordon, assuming he does………
69. WHP
But are the non-posh locals bothered abour foxes and if so which way?
Personally I think urban foxes need to be driven back to the countryside with guns. The ones near me are murderers of birds, rabbits, cats and even fish.
70 amazing isn’t it? She wants to be seen as a domestic goddess but she can’t find the time to iron the old man’s shirts - he just charges us for that.
Also I’m looking forward to a stop-motion animation coming this autumn, ‘Fantastic Mr Fox’, from a Roald Dahl story.
63, PWH - but don’t you Brits all know each other? After all, it a pretty small island!
Am told by Black people that often when they meet White people, they are told about another Black person, who lives on the other side of town or the country, and asked, “do you know him/her?” with clear assumption that they will!
As to dogloving, Brits take the cake over Americans. Though as our population becomes less and less rural we are moving in your direction.
Some years ago was talking to an urban couple who had briefly lived in a rural part of WA State. They had complained to a neighbor about a dog he owned, who kept showing up on their property and did something annoying.
They were totally shocked and appauled to discover that he shot the dog. Having grown up in a rural area, I was not surprised. “What did you expect him to do?,” I asked. Well, they thought he’d keep the critter inside, or send him to obedience school, or reason with him or something. I explained that farmers were both busy people and unsentimental when it comes to animals. That from his point of view, he’d done the responsible thing.
That for most rural folks, the only good “bad” dog is a dead dog.
82 I’d say by a big margin people round my area accept the fox as part of urban landscape-I remember someone saying ‘If you’re worried about your rabbit,build a stronger hutch’-its that simple.
Cats and fish are natural enemies anyway (ditto for birds)- totally non-scientific,but I’d say most people around north-west Charminster feel positively about our foxy visitors!
The way some people talk about foxes (”They’re savage KILLERS! They kill for PLEASURE!!!”), I swear they’d be happier to come home and find Fred West at their table than a vulpine in their yard.
83. Dyed in some wool somewhere July 19th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
What i find shocking is the press seem to run with what Labour spin them.
81 Lets stop this discussion now-before (a)Something untoward is said or (b)someone compains!
I suspect if he got the chance David cameron would like to hunt Liam Fox with dogs.
83 Gordon Brown has had a grace and favour home paid for by the taxpayer since 1997. I believe he should therefore not have claimed a second home allowance since then. That the rules allow him to, is a disgrace.
87 Yep- I guess some people have skeletons in their cupboard
87. ReBrandedHorse
I once saw a dead fox on the M62 its body had been reduced to mush B4/5 of its head was still in tact and “looking at the traffic”!
It put me off my dinner that evening as there is nothing worse than seeing dead animals. It annoys me when they show dead animals on the TV at mealtime as well!
90 Oh come on old chap,would you really wish the taste of Liam Fox on a poor dumb animal?!
83, Dyed - but how many 21st century “domestic goddesses” (aside from ChristianD of course) in London or anywhere else east of Suez and north of Gibraltar are ironing ANYTHING?
Though there is a movement to revive clothes lines (as extinct as the buffalo in the US) as a way to combat climate change.
In fact, Vermont just enacted a “Right to Dry” law.
62. SSI
Never heard of any pub being named after an enemy general, admiral or suchlike.
With the exception of George Washington if you count him as an enemy of Britain.
Speaking of pubs I wonder if there would be any interest in the USA for a book or website giving details of British pubs with American connections. Perhaps they already exist?
Apart from the forementioned ‘George Washington’ which is very close to Sheffield city centre (but I don’t know why it was called after GW) there are also the ‘Pilgrim Fathers’ and ‘Mayflower’ which are in villages to the south-east of Doncaster and from where many of the Pilgrim Fathers originated.
I’m sure the collective knowledge of people on this site could add a few more American connected pubs.
91 Brown is probably one of the worst offenders for expense abuse.
Painting his summer house? He uses it though apparantly ‘for work’ - does he host summits in it?
94 - The dogs could track him by his mobile phone signal.
If he’s really “visiting the troops” he won’t come to any harm.
77
Lefties like Widdecombe who supported the ban, and Rightwingers like Toynbee who didn’t, you mean!
95 just the ones the PM is paying for the pleasure it seems.
90.
Back to your little pond now Timmy, there’s a good little fishy
96 There’s the Mayflower in Rotherhithe from where the eponymous ship sailed (the pub was originally called something else, but was renamed at some time).
75. OMG! Another urban fox.
96
There was a ‘Garibaldi’ in Woking, and in the, ‘cut’ at Waterloo a pub called the ‘Spanish Patriot’
“With the exception of George Washington if you count him as an enemy of Britain.”
By modern standards he *was* a traitorous terrorist insurgent.
Lords report
This morning very exiting, though I haven’t seen the replay as they dont show disputed decisions on the big screen at Lords.
Tim’s comment about Strauss on the previous thread whatever he may or may not think of the decision is disgraceful.
Just seen the Labour leaflet for Norwich North..talk about desperate.
87.
“The way some people talk about foxes (”They’re savage KILLERS! They kill for PLEASURE!!!”),”
You mean like Cameron and family but without the red coat?
103. Mmmmmmmmmm! The big bad Wolf lies in wait.
93
There’s nothing worse than seeing a dead animal at teatime, particularly if you’re eating one.
Whoops, looks like I’m not allowed to joke about George Washington.
If England win the Ashes, will Labour call an early GE?
Would Major have called a GE in 1996 if England had won the European Championship?
106
Errr Foxes do have red coats.
“You mean like Cameron and family but without the red coat?”
With Labour MPs playing the foxes, on the night of the next GE?
I’ll go for that.
107. weathercock No doubt she will swallow you whole!
104 The Garibaldi is still there, in Knaphill (it was called The Hooden Takes a Knap, for a while, and then the Knap, but reverted to the Garibaldi a couple of years ago.)
He was hardly an enemy general though.
110. SG
How much effect to the success at last year’s Olympics have on the polls?
Look an official cartonist is doing cartoons similar to my pictures!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/article6719291.ece
Number of years ago the voters of Washington State passed referendum banning the hunting of bears with dogs. Also many forms of traping coyotes and other animals.
What eventually happened, however, was the provisions were modified in subsequent years (after two year mandatory waiting period). This was in response to both rural interests and concerns, but also because of the growing presence of coyotes (and bears, but esp. the former) in suburban and even urban areas, due to growth & sprawl.
Back in 2001 was driving on back roads toward Windsor, was maybe five miles from center of town in a fairly built-up area. When I saw a BIG fox skulking about, in broad daylight. First I thought he was a large dog, but nose AND tail were unmistakeable.
If foxes were to be issued with ID cards, would that ensure their safety?
Don’t laugh; it’s no more ridiculous than the Home Office’s claims over the last 3 years.
105 - Wow.
Even your report on your own day out is substance free and focused on a comment of mine.
Top effort.
I have thought of another one… there is an Imperial Arms, in Farnborough.
The “Imperial” refers to Eugenie, Empress of the French, who lived in Farnborough (and is buried in Farnborough along with her husband, Napoleon III, and her son, the Prince Imperial, who died in British uniform in the Zulu War).
Re pub names.
One of the best I ever came across was the ‘Three Chimneys’ at Biddenden in Kent - also one of the best pubs I ever went into.
I remembered that it was named after French Prisoners of War from the Seven Years War and on the website it has this:
“During the Seven Years’ War (1756-1763) it is said that up to 3,000 French prisoners were kept at nearby Sissinghurst Castle. The French seamen were placed on parole in the surrounding area and were allowed out as far as the pub building. At the time locals referred to this as the ‘Three Wents’ (or three ways) but the prisoners called it Les Trois Chemins. The unique name of the Three Chimneys therefore derives from the French term for the junction of three roads.”
115 How long till England losing the World Cup allegedly precipitating Harold Wilson’s shock defeat in 1970 is discussed at huge length?
There are also a surprising number of ‘Napoleon’ pubs including one not too far from me at Boston in Lincs.
117 see 76.
67, coldstone “the Americans did have a warship called the USS Rommel named after him I believe.”
Appears that the USS Romel was NOT a USN vessil . Rather 23rd century starship of United Federation of Planets:
http://stexpanded.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Rommel_(NCC-4850)
119
Tim, noone makes nasty poisonious comments like you do, so there is little if ever need to comment on others.
To be honest I am surprised the moderator let your nasty slur stand.
Pub Names - Nick Cleggs local, the Flying Bedstead.
Shadow Cabinet take their meeting to the provinces, starting with the Crooked House near Dudley.
126 - Yeah Yeah.
If Ponting had done the same there’d be dozens of posts saying he cheated.
76, punter - New Jersey, Virginia gubernatoral races 2009
My guess is that it may well be easier for Democrats to win in NJ this year than in Virginia. Which would mean that at if Corzine is defeated and Christie is elected, the moderate Republican in VA also wins.
Either way, do not expect Chritie to emerge as a national figure in his own right by even 2012, though you are correct that he’d help moderate the GOP image somewhat.
The real impact would be diffuse, that Democratic incumbent in NJ and a “Tom Kaine” Dem in Va were defeated by Republicans.
Fact that it happened in states won by Obama in 2008 would be seen as either his fault and/or to his detriment.
Fact that moderates were the victors would have to be a debating point for realo Republicans, be they true moderates or (like S&S) politically savvy and pragmatic conservatives.
The Labour poster is almost as good as Vote Liberal or We’ll Shoot Your Dog slogan…
Am never convinced that fox hunts are the best way of killing foxes, particularly in urban areas, but 4×4s, cars and lorries do their best to keep the numbers down, so why not ban cars, lorries and 4×4s because they kill foxes.
I doubt that I would ever want to participate in a hunt, but wasn’t convinced that the fox hunting legislation was a good use of parliamentry time.
you can clock up another George Washington pub a few miles from where I live ………….Warton, just north of Lancaster. There is a link to one branch of the Washington family.
128 I’m not sure that will necessarily be the case that a Christie victory automatically indicates victory in VA. Consider the following in NJ there are significant Governance problems which is why Christie came to prominence. In NJ the Democrats are very much the old establishment and for both reasons the generic Democrat brand is far more tainted than in VA. Plus you have an unpopular incumbent up for re-election. The VA Constitution doesn’t allow that and if it did Kaine would be the prohibitive favourite. All in all contrarily I think Christie has the better fight on his hands. He is up against a local Democratic party that is slow, lazy and has not to fight hard in years, and has a clutz as its nominee. By contrast in VA the Democratic machine is lean, mean and takes nothing for granted.
Indeed I wonder so long as VA is won if Obama would really mind if a kick to the posterior of the Democrats in NJ was applied. They always seem able to generate national controversy. A spell in the cooler might concentrate their attention.
96, another Richard - there indeed is considerable interest in US in both English pubs and American associations in Britain, so combining the two would be a hit I think.
Americans would be particularly amused by pubs name in honor of our Pilgrim fathers! Of course the fathers themselves would see nothing strange, but their US image does NOT include knocking back a pint after a hard day of chastising sinners and burning witches.
Thanks to all for all of the info on pub names! Keep ‘em coming.
Labour rattling on about fox hunting? So desperate, so pathetic, so hilarious.
Does Dave Spart live in Norwich?
Interesting commentary by Peston!
Has he seen the report?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8158348.stm
133 - He appeared to be brandishing a copy on the 8pm news. Shameful Tories in not first announcing the contents to Parliament
I’m in the unhappy position of having the CEO of the Countryside alliance standing in the constituency adjacent.Nasty lot those CA people. Far nastier than the foxes they want to chase to tear apart.
135 - isn’t the chair of the CA Kate Hoey?
Of course there are many Cross Keys pubs (and places) which are Papal references.
135 - Not much of a Welcome in the Valley there, boyo.
136
Yes!
135. Especially the Labour supporting ones, eh?
138
Fox hunters aren’t welcome in my valley, that’s a cert.
135 - They’re gearing up
Media training for huntsmen
Friday, 03 July 2009
As reported in Horse & Hound (H&H) on Thursday 2nd July 2009, the Countryside Alliance is currently running a series of media training sessions for huntsmen in preparation for repeal of the Hunting Act. The latest session, which took part in London on 23rd June, saw Gerald Sumner of the Vale of Aylesbury with Garth and South Berks and Michael Scott of the Old Berks put through a series of mocked up interviews, including a radio interview and a round-table debate.
The training, carried out by Radiant Media, which is run by journalists with BBC experience, is a vital part of our work leading up to repeal of the Hunting Act. As the Alliance’s Tim Bonner told H&H, “Part of the reason why hunting was banned was the stereotype of the arrogant, aloof and out-of-touch hunting world, and some of that was because of the way we interacted with journalists.”
http://www.countryside-alliance.org.uk/hunting-campaigns/hunting-events/media-training-for-huntsmen/
The US doesn’t have much tradition of recognizing distinguished foreigners let alone former enemies in terms of commercial naming. Note that “Red Baron Pizza” is more a tribute to Snoopy than von Richtofen.
Exceptions tend to be establishments catering to either immigrants (”Kevin Barry” “irish” pubs) or hippies/yuppies (”Che Guevara” radical bookstores and the like).
However, IF I was to establish an “English” pub in New Orleans, think I’d call it “Pakenham’s Revenge”. Any PBers interested in financing my dream?
Here in Seattle, good name for a similar establishment might be “Peter Puget’s Parrot”.
AND if I wanted to go into the pub business in Dear Old Blighty, think I’d head to Maidenhead and impress the locals with “The Nail and Screw”!
Well, well, well. There are almost as many posts on Labour’s fox poster as there are on Strauss’s tactics in the Test Match.
Labour have clearly scored. The first buzz they have created in the NN campaign so far.
Will it get them any votes? As they are fighting apathy and defection, I guess it may get a few bums off seats on 23rd July and may stay a few deserters. Not enough to score any relevant success though.
But they have enraged the Tories and caught the wider public’s attention. Some consolation perhaps.
135
But no where near as nasty as Labour supporters. They are a different class of malignancy entirely.
140 If foxes could vote……..they certainly wouldn’t vote Tory.
142 So what!
There’s an interview with George Osborne in the FT, but it requires subscription.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5df1eaf8-7496-11de-8ad5-00144feabdc0.html
145. SSI.
There is an Obama Beach in Normandy.
144
I know quite a lot of apathetic labourites in this part of the world who could be stirred into action against the nasty Tory fox hunters.
I suspect the same in Norwich.Not a big vote winner but certainly not a labour vote loser.
“Did Brown save the world as the Tories did nothing?”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/19/brown-financial-crisis-action
143. Only Pakenham I remember is a historian, Thomas Pakenham who wrote The Scramble for Africa. But I suspect he is not the one you’re referring to.
Grossly off-topic, but I felt like a rant!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/19/swine-flu-british-airways-virgin
Here we go. The scaremongering and hysteria over this disease that (unfortunately) can kill, but so far seems to be pretty tame in most people, extends to the airport.
I ask; how is a check-in employee qualified to test for swine flu? What if someone has a runny nose? Are they going to be denied boarding?
Ridiculous. I’m flying on Saturday with Virgin, so I’d best hope I don’t get flu-like symptoms before then.
144
“Enraged” thats ridiculous. I should think most Conservatives find it laughable and pathetic in equal measure.
I thought I remembered Labour using the slogan before and I had.
It was used at the Eddisbury byelection. It’ll almost be exactly a decade to the day since then that the Norwich by-election takes place. Good to see that Labour campaining is so cutting edge and full of new ideas!
http://www.labouranimalwelfare.org/news/impact-september-2008-editorial
149, SOL - of course Obama did take Omaha!
141. Don’t they hunt foxes on foot in a number of Welsh valleys?
146. I understand Labour are planning to enfranchise 16-18 year olds. This may give them some electoral traction, but foxes? Isn’t this a step too far?
143/152 Kitty Pakenham, (first) Duchess of Wellington?
159. In fact, I have heard it said that
‘There is more hunting per square mile in Wales than any other part of the UK’
152, corporeal - General Sir Edward Pakenham, who commanded the British invasion of Louisiana during War of 1812 and died at the Battle of New Orleans, January 1815.
151. Me July 19th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
I dont think Lloyds share holders or the folk fired at HBOS and Lloyds TSB will thank him! Brown deserves no credit - Labour are deluded if they think Brown deserves anything. Brown also wasted Billions on the VAT cut that has been completly ineffective. Brown is a stupid pillock on Economics and finance. Brown is just arrogant and the whole chimera that he created with his bullshit FSA means the Buck stops with him!
159
I have lived in Pembrokeshire for many years.I seem to recall however that you may be right,certainly in the past they were hunted on foot, but as you might guess I never took part.
Fox hunting was also conducted on foot in Cumbria.
Thoughts on the Labour fox poster:
1) It’s quite funny - much the most amusing Labour poster for some time
2) It may help keep on board a few voters flirting with the Greens
3) It does rather show up a paucity of policy
61, E - she was Sir Edward’s sister.
161. Frank, Lord Longford
157
Excellent, well remembered Max.
162
Where did you hear that?
Not that surprised though given the influence of the farming community in Wales.
Another Brown gimmick failed today! The Big Lunch
Anyone seen any street parties!
167. The key word there is ‘Greens’. This poster suggests to me Labour’s vote is in meltdown.
My bets on the Greens coming second and Labour fourth may yet finance a new scarlet hunting coat…
171 - yeah, all those bloody farmers ruining the Welsh countryside. They should all move into trendy appartment blocks and vote Labour while swilling moderately expensive wine and working in the public sector…
144. SOL
I suspect the fox hunting issue will be as successful in NN as the Toff issue was in C&N.
It looks like something thought up in central London by someone with no knowledge of working and lower middle class life.
171. You can find it among the evidence to the Burns Inquiry.
172 - I loved the fact that they pressed ahead with that while letting Johnson out of his box to tell everyone that swine flu was more dangerous than terrorism.
174
‘you never see a poor farmer’.
They are the ones swigging red and driving expensive 4×4’s in this part of the world.
50. Almost certainly not.
Why it matters to the Conservatives is that it rallies a few thousand activists in rural Con/Lib Dem battlegrounds, where feet on the ground are important.
Back on topic. Another source of Japanese polls
http://www.mansfieldfdn.org/polls/polls_listing.htm
Free advice to Official Raving Monster Loony Party - JohnLoony please note:
Launch intensive canvass in SOUTH Norwich.
For announced purpose of changing the direction of British politics.
175
In all seriousness,I do see the fox hunting issue as one that may well galvanise a percentage of the disullusioned labour fringe.Unlikely to be enough to make more than a marginal difference at a local or GE,but
I cannot imagine that DC is looking forward to the day when the private members bill lands on his desk.All hell will break loose.
179 - Its a delight from the Tories.
Their Overseas Aid commitment is aimed at exactly the Lib Dem voters who are likely to be alienated by the fox hunting issue.
177.
Yes, I think the idea was to eat bacon buttys not spread swine flu the most dangerous threat to the UK at the Big Lunch - More dangerous than Terrorism! Browns government is so despeate no doubt they had a big lunch in the Cobra suite to direct Browns plan of national action! 
No doubt Chocolate cake was served up whilst biohazzard markers on a uk map are shifted to the Doomed areas! No doubt tBrown is used to shifting markers of Doom on a uk map when he plots his election strategy! 
Watch Nick - Brown has a Marker of Doom over your place!
I admit, the Labour poster is hilarious.
From “The Battle of New Orleans” by Jimmy Driftwood
“Well, the guide that led the British from the sea
Come a-limpin’ into camp as sick as he could be
Said the dying words of the Colonel Packenham
Don’t you ever go a-foolin’ with your cousin Uncle Sam”
I think Tim has reached the lagershed a tad late
Goodnight all… off to listen to the Week in Wesminster.
175. AR
I hunt and support hunting. I do not however believe that the repeal of the hunting ban is a casus belli. It won’t win the Tories a net vote and it exposes their election campaign to the kind of attention seeking high jinks we have seen in Norwich North.
The status quo has not killed the game. If any intervention is needed it would be to amend legislation to delegate the power of consent to county councils.
178. What do you think of Brown getting Wales to vote Tory for the first time since 1859. I still can’t believe he managed it.
FPT and expanded:
“Audit chiefs refuse to pass accounts for 5 Government departments”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1200670/Audit-chiefs-refuse-pass-accounts-5-Government-departments.html
The Mail on Sunday has learned that five Whitehall departments have simultaneously chosen ‘Black Monday’ at the ‘fag end’ of the Commons session to reveal problems with their accounts.
Watchdogs at the National Audit Office have ‘qualified’ each set of figures – meaning that inspectors have serious concerns about the state of the books.
Embarrassingly, the list will include the Treasury – the Prime Minister’s old department and the Ministry that is responsible for policing Whitehall expenditure.
The bad news will be released at the same time as two more dire statements about theoverall state of the Government’s finances.
The statements for both the Consolidated Fund – the Government’s current account – and the National Loans Fund – the borrowing and lending account – will also be disclosed in the 48 hours before MPs leave Westminster for their summer break on Tuesday.
The National Audit Office is expected to say it has concerns over the state of the Treasury’s books because it cannot get a proper explanation for the billions of pounds spent bailing out the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds Bank last autumn. The department has also been castigated for its handling of the huge bail-out of Northern Rock, which has cost the taxpayer billions.
Other departments understood to be in trouble include the Ministry of Defence, the Home Office, the Department for Work and Pensions and HM Revenue & Customs. The Equality and Human Rights Commission is also expected to be rebuked over its accounts.
182 I have friends who live in Carmarthenshire, the local hunt was made up of farmers who followed the hounds in land rovers and on quad bikes, shooting the fox when it was flushed.
Seemed to me to be a workmanlike and practical activity, and not one that should have been banned.
Some thoughts on the burning issue of today:
(a) Had Strauss enforced the follow-on, a similar number of moaners would have been criticising that decision.
(b) Many of them would be the same people as those who are criticising the bat-again decision.
192 The difference is that, according to most pundits, you should enforce the follow-on in almost all circumstances, the only exception being to protect tired bowlers who have been labouring long and hard in the field. Had the Aussies followed on and won, Strauss wouldn’t have been criticised for the follow-on decision. Instead, he has to justify the decision he made by winning the match.
IF Labour really wants to use the “the fox gets it” theme AND also work in toff angle, they also incorporate image (perhaps downloaded from Nicolas Soames website?) of fat pink-coated toff pointing his riding crop at the poor little fox.
Maybe also have a rather bored looking hunting dog at the huntsman’s feet. Then you get an “three-fer” appeal, to
>>> anti foxing hunters
>>> anti toffs
>>> dog lovers
173. runnymede
I have a small ‘patriotic’ bet on this outcome. I also think the Greens will just pip the Lib Dems. However, I remain unconvinced that more than half of Labour’s 21,000 [2005 GE] votes will defect or stay at home. This has to happen for the bet to win. Can you convince me?
On hunting:
Burns explicitly said that he did not conclude that hunting with hounds is cruel to foxes. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200001/ldhansrd/vo010312/text/10312-06.htm#10312-06_para26
As Burns notes in that paragraph, people fixated on the phrase “seriously compromises the welfare of the fox”. What he didn’t say, possibly because it’s unparliamentary, is: Well, DURRRRR! It kills them! That’s the point of the damn thing!
Paragraphs 57-61 are the key ones: Burns is quite clear that the banning of hunting with dogs would result in fox control by worse, not better animal-welfare methods.
The hunting ban was ill-conceived, not surprisingly considering the true motives behind it. It’s also been described by a judge as too difficult “to interpret or apply” - in other words, unenforceable.
The Hunting Act must be either overhauled to the extent of total replacement, or simply repealed.
Speaking of British hunting customs, in one episode of “The Avengers” (”The Town of No Return”) featured a rather sinister-looking group of (purported) rural residents leaving their local late one evening, armed with to the teeth.
“Where are they going,” inquired Mrs. Peel.
“Badger hungint” replied the dodgy landlord.
“At night?” Steed exclaimed.
“It’s more fun that way.”
Is this true?
193. elagabalus: Had the Aussies followed on and won, Strauss wouldn’t have been criticised for the follow-on decision.
Yeah, right. As if.
If we lose this game, it’ll be because the bowlers didn’t bowl Australia out for 520 in the fourth innings. If they couldn’t do that, what would they have conceded in the third innings?
Why don’t you just loose otherwise unemployed hounds on the Aussies? On grounds that both need the exercise.
195. My starting point was the locals results, where Lab, Green and Lib Dem were all very close for second. Low turnout of course, but with a further possible slide in the Labour vote, my reckoning was all possibilities were open.
That said, the long odds I got on my bets aren’t unreasonable.
199. SSI.
BTW, FYI, it’s “the Open”. (ref: your post 11)
American citizenship is not an excuse on this point
I believe the ban will be overturned, and the BBC will treat us with reams and reams of footage of huntsmen going out to ‘tear apart’ those ‘poor little foxes’. I doubt the public will mind that much. At the end of the day, people vote on more important issues than foxhunting. I’d bet a majority would say they’re against it, and were happy it was outlawed, but I’d seriously doubt that they’d get so angry at a government for reinstating it that they’d change their vote.
The thing I’m really worried about is that this is going to turn into is a game of ‘ban ping pong,’ (or whiff whaff, as Boris would put it) - where hunting is banned under Labour governments and allowed under Tory governments. One way or another, for the sake of the rural economy, the parties are going to have to make their minds up.
Banning foxhunting as a political issue in the UK appears to bear some resemblance to banning guns in the US.
That is, in the US support for gun control is wide but not especially deep. Whereas opposition is narrower but also much deeper.
Which in electoral terms means that protecting the 2nd amendment is smarter politics than saving lives.
Note that Democrats and Obama have all but abandoned the whole gun debate for this reason.
In UK, appears that opposition is pretty broad. But whereas there is significant and potent rural opposition, this is more than balanced by equally deep feelings and motivation by many urban, suburban and even some rural opponents to hunting.
Plus this issue is tied to lingering class tensions in a way that guns are not in the US.
201, LO - well, guess if we can have “The World Series” guess you can have “The Open”!
Speaking of the Ashes, doesn’t appear the umpires would object to my doggy suggestion . . .
197 Are you sure it wasn’t beaver hunting? A sport traditionally conducted during the hours of darkness.
198. That’s part of the point though. Batting 4th gives you control to chase or not.
Had Australia batted for 2 days and put up 500 odd then England would have had the option of dropping anchor and taking the draw (or trying to make 300, which is feasible). He wouldn’t have had to guess at declaring with how big a lead and how much time left etc, would have struck a psychological blow against the Aussies at the very least and kept the pressure on within the match. As it was England lost a lot of momentum batting, particularly with Bopara and Pieterson out there.
205 - Tonight whilst out on the razz, I have mainly been hunting beaver.
207 - As you’re back, I assume you failed.
207 - Frankly, my dear, I couldn’t give a dam.
207. Did you sniff any out?
“tell everyone that swine flu was more dangerous than terrorism”
Bit hard to do that, surely, given that much of the last 8 years’ politics essentially boils down to, “NOTHING in the whole wide world is more dangerous than terrorism, EVER.”
206. corporeal: Batting 4th gives you control to chase or not.
“Control” in this case is highly over-rated. If you start off attempting to chase, lose a couple of wickets and then try to drop anchor, you probably get rolled over quickly.
Defending a 520 run total is control enough.
203 SSI.
Is class warfare a driver of gun control policy in the US?
Fox hunting raises all kinds of intractable issues: animal welfare, land husbandry, town vs country, minority rights, etc. It is the class element that adds depth and spice. If foxes were hunted on tractors by farmers wearing dungarees and killed with a shotgun, there would be far less passion in the debate.
It is the ritual of toffs in pink coats on horses that excites.
190. Not always a sign of something rotten, all public bodies have moved to a new international accounting standard, some organisations are struggling with the system, it is quite possible that this is the reason for failure. We are almost certainly not looking at systematic fraud like the EU, or those individual learning accounts (remember those?????)
213. And of course the ritualised setting of dogs against wild animals.
Apropos of nothing at all, I’d like to mention how proud I was of the crowd at the Open for not reacting at all to Cink’s cringeworthy “praise Jesus!” moment.
O/T
I went to a rather fine bash last night, where the entertainment included a masterly reprise of Noel Coward’s ‘There are bad times just around the corner’, performed by a very convincing Alastair Darling look-alike. The words (originally written in response to the 1951 Festival of Britain) are uncannily appropriate to today:
“There are bad times just around the corner,
There are dark clouds hurtling through the sky
And it’s no good whining
About a silver lining
For we know from experience that they won’t roll by
…
There are bad times just around the corner,
The horizon’s gloomy as can be,
There are black birds over
The grayish cliffs of Dover
And the rats are preparing to leave the B.B.C.”
Full brilliant lyrics here:
http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php?hid=YNBPAw7pra4%3D
189 punter
sickening.
I’ve always thought of the Japanese LDP as a centre-right mostly conservative party, albeit with lots of personality-based factions. But if some of the comments above have described it as ranging from Thatcherite to Marxist, then perhaps it’s just a party whose sole purpose is to stay in power and win elections - regardless of policies or philosophy. So it’s more like Fianna Fail or the Italian Christian Democrats.
96 - Regarding British pubs with American connections.
My own pub - The Gunmakers Arms in Clerkenwell, London - has an American connection. It’s named in honour of Sir Hiram Maxim, the American who invented the first machine gun close by on Hatton Garden.
In the last day or two there have been lots of reports from various media/internet sources about the opinion poll in Norwich North, being reported as if it’s a new one, and apparently not realising that it’s five weeks old. How come? Why are so many people so stupid all of a sudden? Don’t they check the dates? Didin’t they remember the numbers? Did they all just copy off each other?
183
‘Their Overseas Aid commitment is aimed at exactly the Lib Dem voters who are likely to be alienated by the fox hunting issue.’
Do you really believe that anyone is taken in by the fox hunting ban?
The very same animal welfare brigade that stays silent when thousands of animals are slaughterd each day in the cruelest way possible,namely halal.
“Poll shows voters want Brown to step up constitutional reform”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jul/19/poll-electoral-reform-gordon-brown
The decision to bat on by Strauss was right - the error in my view was not batting on for an hour this morning on a Twenty/20 basis. We could have put Australia out of the game with another 100 runs, and not lost anything by being all out within 20 minutes.
“New Labour became too much of a sect”
By James Purnell
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/19/new-labour-left-unite-sect
221 In a way you are right.Fox hunting is in a way irrelevant when it comes to the inhumane slaughter of animals for their meat.I wish that could be banned as well.Unfortunately there is and never has been political will.
224. I think the weather was the issue.
If Strauss knew for certain there would be 2 full days then obviously we should bat on as if the Aussies bat for 2 days they’ll certainly score 520.
But it was raining first thing this morning (start was delayed 15 mins, but he didn’t know how long it would be) and the forecast was for more showers in the afternoon. There was also the chance of losing more time on the last day.
With all this in mind, Strauss would have looked idiotic if he had batted on and then there had been quite a bit of rain. All things considered, he had to declare at start of play.
207, SStC - good for you, bro! Just returned from a bike/bus ride across much of my fair city - sunny and 70s fahrenheit - kind of day that we generally don’t tell outsiders about.
And can testify that the urban fox is alive and well in Seattle. Ditto her older sister, the urban cougar!
Though where do you draw the line? Perhaps a kind PBer would care to fund my further research???
223.
25% want FPTP
25% want AV
34% want PR (no system specified)
… Hardly consensus, is there?
Plus: Fabian Society commissions poll on constitutional reform, it comes out largely ‘in favour’, and Guardian report it shocker.
But constitutional reform is one of those things most people if asked will say yes to. Because people tend not to like Parliament and feel that reform will make it better (even if in reality it would not). Personally I feel the whole thing is a bit more nuanced than “are you in favour of x?”
An interview with Damian McBride
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/jul/20/damian-mcbride-interview-labour-spin
213, SOL - “Is class warfare a driver of gun control policy in the US?”
No (or not very much) the real divide is rural versus urban.
Rural residents are much more likely to own firearms than urban/surburban people. Though of course the general level of gun ownership is MUCH higher in US than UK or just about anywhere except South Africa.
The NRA has been extremely effective at harnassing both historical tradition, ideological fervor and the cultural mores of rural America. This latter is important not just for current rural folk who own guns or are acculturated and sympathetic to gun owners. It also pentrates somewhat into the rest of society, thanks to people who were raised in a rural environment.
However, one long-term problem for the NRA is the fact that as the rural component of American society continues to dwindle, the number of hunters is declining. For the hunters are the bedrock of the pro-gun lobby.
First, because they care the most, and are extremely concerned that city slickers and suburban mall rats will take their guns away as part of dealing with urban crime and suburban angst. It was this fear that as much as anything else defeated Al Gore in 2000. Certainly it lost him the state of West Virginia, other factors there but nine years ago the rest were only percolating, but the gun issue was a HUGE deal.
Second, the decline of hunting means that ever higher percentage of gun owners will be non-hunters. These are a diverse group. But even factoring in animal rights, yuppie sqeemishness & the like, hunting at least has the benefit of being traditional and functional. Most hunters do it for sport, but there a plenty who also put meat in the freezer. Indeed, getting back to WVa, traditionally in hard times, it common for laid off miners and others folks on diminished incomes to resort to hunting to put food on the table. In particular deer which are plentiful (indeed a nusance in many areas), tasty and large enough to fill a freezer for a while.
220, Jeff - that’s great to know.
Speaking of the NRA, you might consider letting them know of your existence, for example small add their website or magazine. Bet you’d get a bunch of US firearms enthusiasts (they are NOT all nutters by any means, and tend to have disposable income for travel and entertainment) stopping by to hoist a pint in honor of Sir Hiram.
Might even help man the barricades if heirs of the Fuzzy Wuzzies, etc. decide to even the score now that their own armament is a tad more sophisticated than back when the Maxim gun was knocking off their kith and kin like ninepins.
230. Vomit-inducing, especially the stuff about his dad.
230 - it’s still difficult to believe he is only 35
233 - he’s not the most sympathetic character but vomit inducing? why?
233-Don’t you want to read that part again? He has a moral compass!
“”I lost my dad three years ago. He was from a religious Scottish upbringing, very stern, and he would have hated reading those emails. I remember thinking: ‘Thank God my dad didn’t have to see this’, but the way Gordon reacted to me that day, it was as bad as telling my dad.”"
234. The evasion (’that’s my job’…oops), the self-pity, the nauseating attempt to garner sympathy, the blatant lies…what else do you want?
236 - What blatant lies were there?
237-For starters, he said he is 35.
I love reading mixed metaphors and Double Carpet’s “the sound of a barrel being scraped in the last-chance saloon” is a cracker.
Quick skim of the thread - couple of points:
- The Charles Clarke interview is based on the persistent claim that the ICM poll is a new one - it refers to the national poll at the same time, and interviews Clarke on that basis. I doubt it, as the coincidence of numbers with the last poll would be surprising, but maybe worth Mike ringi9ng them to check, asit clearly would hav emajor betting implications.
- Foxes: we have a more or less resident fox who has a partner and cubs ever year: once they’ve grown a bit, they go their separate ways. One of the best moments of my life was looking out of the back window and seeing a farewell reunion of the current couple of thier four cubs, all sunning themselves in the grass. Yes, numbers are an issue if allowed to multiply and so is pet safety, but leaving aside the policy stuff they’re beautiful animals to look at.
As for the politics - there are certainly voters who will only vote Labour because of this - one of them is involved in my ‘Conservatives for Palmer’ group. No doubt the reverse is true too in some areas, but on the whole the Tory commitment to set aside time to reverse the ban is IMO doing them more harm than good: some natural Tory supporters really hate it, and a much larger group who don’t care think “bloody hell, is *that* going to be your priority?” We had the same problem with the ban - lots of people think it a fringe issue and don’t want time spent on it either way.
I wonder if the timing of this interview has anything with Guido being out of the country for quite a while on his hols?
240 - You would hope that his friends are advising him to forget about Guido and move on.
240 (cont) There are some whoppers in that interview for certain! For starters,
“McBride phoned Brown on a Saturday morning, when reports surfaced that there was a scandal brewing”
That’s odd, I seem to remember it being all over the net and news on Friday night out these “juvenile” emails, anybody remember the Telegraph spoiler story breaking Friday Tea Time?
Also, I notice he tries to spin the lies as, well the lobby journos told me they were true and came from within the Tory party, and those journos have never said I lied! Hint, hint, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Entertaining report from the Norwich front:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6719526.ece
“They were composed in minutes, without the knowledge of No 10, as “a personal favour to Derek”
“As far as I was concerned, those emails went in the bin shortly after they were written”
That’s odd, Guido and the press showed that various emails were sent over a large period of time. He may have only taken a total of a “few minutes”, but certainly wasn’t the result of one late night drunken blast at the keyboard for 10 mins.
“I think there was an element of snobbery to [the criticism],” McBride says,
Them Tory Toffs and their Toff media friends all ganging up against poor defenseless little me….
All in all a fairly disgusting response from McBride, but would we expect anything different?
Apologies if somebody’s already mentioned this, but the Scottish breakdown of last night’s ComRes poll was -
SNP 27% (-18)
Labour 26%(-3)
Conservatives 23% (+15)
Liberal Democrats 16% (+4)
Others 9% (+4)
PS. What a shame about Tom Watson. There seems to be something uncanny about the failures to break the ‘oldest player to win a major’ record in the last couple of years. Greg Norman came fairly close last year, Kenny Perry came very close on two occasions, and now Watson.
244, Oracle - anyone who’s still trying to make excuses for that fiasco needs to be handed their head and told to take a hike. Not necessarily in that order.
“I could happily sit down with Glover and have a debate about any aspect of policy. That’s my job.”
Except, of course, it is no longer his job. But McBride’s conversation is littered with similar slip-ups.
Hmmm, really, makes you wonder……
242-It was published on a Friday
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/conservative/5138271/Row-as-Number-10-emails-smear-Tories.html
46, RM - “There seems to be something uncanny about the failures to break the ‘oldest player to win a major’ record in the last couple of years.”
Postal voting?
249 - As I said, full of whoppers that little piece. I hope somebody goes to town on him. Also, amazing how the Guardian journo could find him fairly easily, but he was un-contactable for the select committee hearing.
Oh I missed the last bit, basically a threat that he is going to get Guido. Nice.
251-Maybe he found the Guardian journalist.
250. SSI - The marked register has gone missing so we’ll never know.
253 - A very good thought, and he does admit he is still in contact with his “friends” in the lobby.
251 - Really? Full of whoppers? Full of stories you arent convinced by or dont believe but that doesnt make them actual lies though. (Unless we have redefined the word lie.) You make much of McBride saying he called Brown about it all on Saturday morning. Who’s to say he didnt? Why would he lie about the timing of the call? Why do you think you have shown him to have lied about it?!
According to another article, he said that he may write memories.
Poignant:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/07/02/the_least_free_places_on_earth
I think Neil is right. The only lie that I can see is the fact that he has 35, besides that we can only doubt about his versions of events, but we cannot be sure that they aren’t true.
Good night everyone.
Here is a whopper,
“while his email about Frances Osborne (he) made clear that the rumours about her were “false”.”
The relevant email,
“Gents
A few ideas I’ve been working on for Red Rag. For ease, I’ve written all the below as I’d write them for the site, but obviously Andrew will want to adapt for his own house style, length, etc.
The first one is a solid investigative story, so may be a good one to use early. The other 3 are gossipy and mainly intended to destabilise the Tories.
I’m not sure how to set up easy links in the copy of the text, so I’ve stuck in the full links below each bit of relevant text.
Damian”
He uses the word gossipy, nowhere does it say “made clear that the rumours about her were “false”. There is absolutely no clarification about the truthfulness of the story at all.
Just a thought everone-by BST we are well into the 40th anniversary of Apollo 11 landing at (?) 4.56am BST.
Many of us were not even born then,I feel real humility and awe that such an incredible feat could be achieved.For those who believe in the second event I will mention,in my opinion it is,alone,worthy of being compared in history with the birth of Jesus Christ.
(Last thought-the computer of Apollo 11 had a BILLIONTH (10 ^9) of the power of the average mobile phone today in mid 2009- Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin (not forgetting the third guy in the orbiter) truly deserve their place in history)
Another whopper,
“They were composed in minutes, without the knowledge of No 10, as “a personal favour to Derek. Nobody else knew anything about it.”
Other than the other people cc’ed in on them! Even in the email I copied, it say “Gents”, plural, not Derek, not Mr Draper, Gents, plural!
I’m still here…
261-Oracle-For me it’s a question of interpretation and the paragraph as whole. When he says the first one was a product of solid investigation, but the other three are gossip, I do think it means they are false although it is not explicit. But like I said, that’s how I read it, but I’m sure many will read differently.
263-”a personal favour to Derek. Nobody else knew anything about it.””
Ok, that’s a lie.
Now I think I’m really going, good night.
264 - I agree to a certain extent, but I put that down to him twisting the truth, like the “composed in minutes” (that could be taken as 10 minutes bashing the keyboard in one session, or 5-10 emails taking a few minutes each to compose, which from the evidence provided via Guido, The Times and NOTW, seems far nearer the mark).
How about the 2nd whopper I identified?
“Nobody else knew anything”, but his emails have been shown to be cc’ed to other people, and address the one I showed as “Gents”.
230.That article in the Guardian totally defies belief, and yet they printed it! After the last couple of weeks, and the way they are going after Coulson, this is pretty disgusting to be honest.
268 - Yes, you couldn’t miss that it starts with all the stuff about Coulson! Not trying to connect the two cases, surely, no, never….
269.Oracle, I just had to go and read it again. I was coming to the conclusion that their obsession with Coulson was getting out of hand, especially when nothing of note linking him to the case has appeared so far. In fact, it brought back memories of their behavior towards Boris Johnson in the Mayoral contest.
But that first paragraph is truly shocking!
262 - I remember it well. Was in Salisbury, Rhodesia on holiday. No TV pictures but listened in BBC World Service looking up at the sky and the moon, as were all the neighbouring houses, excited kids imagining what it looked like. Next morning went to Meikles department store and bought an LP of the landing - pressed and distributed within hours.
Amazing achievement, especially when you read of all the things that went wrong (computer unable to handle the two streams of data being fed into it, landing some distance from target, door redesigned without taking account of size of astronaut with life support back pack so a very tight squeeze getting in and out etc)
I’m with Oracle & ChristinaD on this onoe, anyone who takes these clowns at their word should check out the specials at the Bangkok airport duty free store . . . or contact me for details on purchasing the Space Needle . . .
242.”Also, I notice he tries to spin the lies as, well the lobby journos told me they were true and came from within the Tory party, and those journos have never said I lied! Hint, hint, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.”
Oracle, go back and check out PB.com that Friday, and Guido over the weekend.
271.Ted, what is your view of the article Me linked to @230?
272.SSI, by the way, I have two cats, and a dog. I love animals, wouldn’t harm a fox or ever go fox hunting. But, as someone who grew up in a rural area, I think that this ban was class driven and stupid. Luckily for the hunting fraternity on this occasion, Labour’s poor legislation skills struck again.
Churchill bunker “not bomb-proof”:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8158099.stm
Insert your own joke here…
Hold it in, boys?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8158350.stm
251.Oracle, maybe the irony of that was lost on the Guardian reporter and McBride?
274 Content free interview with reporter asking no difficult questions and result being negligible in telling us anything. McBride gets a few spin lines in - mention of his father & Gordon as if both are strong moral men with Presbyterian consciences (McBride an RC surely?) to support the Good Gordon, Moral Compass meme. No truth or insight on the dirty tricks. Still talking as if he was in the loop which is interesting but really a waste of newsprint.
275, LS - can THIS be blamed on New Labour?
274, CD - my view is pretty much as yours on hunting in general.
Grew up in a community where every year the boys (very sexist!) were exused from school on first day of deer season. Personally have never had any desire whatsoever to hunt, or even to shot at targets & the like. But understand those that do, provided they practice proper firearm safety. Have friends back in WVa whose homes might be mistaken for arsenels, for example rifles in the corner, shotguns in the closet (and no kids in the house) even one guy who manufactures his own bullets in the basement! AND have never felt the slightest concern, because these people truly know what they are doing.
231 SSI. Guns and Foxes
It seems the core justification for gun ownership in the US is the right to hunt for food. Fox hunting - “the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable” - cannot be so justified, although fishing, shooting and game hunting can and therefore survives.
In the UK the finance supporting fox hunts has traditionally been provided by the landed aristocracy. Country Houses kennel the dogs and their parks and farms host the meets. This remains true today although new money and management is often injected from non-aristocratic and urban sources. The landowners at the top of the pyramid are not bound to the country and will have London homes and ‘roots’. A patron may well be a hereditary peer with connections to Parliament (e.g. House of Lords until recently) and the Court. Although the top end bridges town and country, hunting activities have always been rural pursuits with matching social structures. This gives the lie to the defence of hunting as a “farmers only” or rural working class activity (there are of course exceptions…). Participation in hunts will usually involve a broad social spectrum within the rural community, although the scarlet coats and liveried horses will only be accessible to the monied. Others will follow on foot or work in or for the hunt. It is this broad social spectrum that makes up the hunting community, a conservative (and almost exclusively Conservative) coalition. Rural attitudes to animal welfare prevail.
As you might expect there are plenty of political targets here: landed wealth, hereditary political and social power, clearly delineated and inflexible social strata etc.: everything that adds up to “toffs in pink coats”. When this is coupled with urban views of animal welfare, battlelines are drawn and attitudes polarised.
The hunting community sees themselves are defending an attack on their cultural identity. Their opponents see themselves fighting a class war on behalf of wild animals. The status quo is a temporary truce which results from an unenforceable legislative ban.
239 NPMP.
Foxes are attractive animals when admired through a garden window. When they have just killed your livestock they are less beautiful to the eye of the beholder. [Not that fox-hunting is the solution to the latter problem].
It is disingenuous for Labour to claim that the Tories will receive limited benefit from repealing the fox-hunting ban and that other political priorities should prevail. Exactly the same criticism can been levelled at the government for introducing the ban. If Labour can waste parliamentary resources to enact why can’t the Tories do the same to repeal?
Having ranted, I confess that I don’t favour a Tory manifesto commitment to a repeal. As the current law appears unenforceable, my view is that the Tories should only intervene if the status quo changes, i.e. let sleeping dogs lie.
all over