Should Labour fight the general election like this?
August 16th, 2009
Is there mileage in using some of the C&N rhetoric?
Last week I finalised a chapter on by-elections that I’m contributing to a book on the general election that’s coming out in the autumn. During my researches I found this great site which is building up a collection of campaign materials from almost all by-election campaigns of recent times.
From going through the literature you can get a real feel for how each of battles progressed and one that I had not examined in detail before was the “Anti -Toff” campaign that Labour put together in their unsuccessful defence of Crewe and Nantwich in May 2008.
What struck me was that this controversial element was used in a more sophisticated way than the impression we got from media coverage. This is all about finding a message for the target audience - Labour voters of 2005 who needed to be motivated to go out and vote in the by-election. Labour, of course, was defeated but the total of Labour votes lost was not as bad as in Norwich North.
The “one of us - one of them” gets over the point nicely as does the phrase”Tory boy who’s used to be waited on not serving others”.
So could Labour refine the C&N approach for the general election? For the party will not be after converts - it just wants a way of firing up activists and having messages that will resonate with former voters.
My guess is that many elements in the party would love to campaign like this and that we’ll see something on these lines used in targeted leaflets for distribution in the traditional Labour parts of seats at risk.
They could decide to go for Cameron and those Bullingdon pictures might re-appear. But going for a leader who is liked might be a mistake. A better target would be Osborne even though he didn’t go to Eton but was a day boy at a west London public school.
Mike Smithson
MessageSpace Advertising
First?
aaargh second again?
Yes, Labour should fight an election like this, it will lead to them being beaten rather comprehensively. Let’s face it, it was a roaring sucess in C&N.
Definitely, that way even if they’ve ditched Brown beforehand then they will still be toast.
3
It’ll be an epic fail. Its proved to be so, and Labour have nothing left but negativity. Timbot displays this perfectly.
Ugh, Del Potro’s thrown away the third set.
I’m not sure campaigning this way would be clever, particularly given the fact that many MPs have milked the expenses system.
Oh yes please. In fact they should have ‘Tammy’s action plan’ (sic) on all their leaflets.
It’s so utterly amateur!
Out of curiousity, since I was privately educated, does that mean I’m a bad person in Labour’s eyes?
Weird. Del Potro just broke back, but it’s still 4-1 (Del Potro to serve). Why can’t my bets ever just win easily, by miles?
6
Your punishment might be reduced to 30 yrs of reading Labour manifesto’s
9 - MD, it’s much more fun this way. You wouldn’t want life to be boring would you
8
No: you are perfect material to be a Labour Cabinet Minister. And then to be Equalities Minister and lecture the rest of the UK on opportunity…
8. Yes. Unless you are a Labour minister, MP or candidate in which case you privileged upbringing, education and enormous wealth is a private matter and not relevant to your ability to represent your constituents in parliament.
8. probably - join the club I was educated at a Grammar School - I must be a bad person too
It’s really hard to believe just how crude, amateur and risible the leaflet produced above is..and that a supposedly serious political party sink to such levels?
And then one considers what sort of people are running New Labour - Brown, McBride, Watson, and the various draperbots - and it makes perfect sense.
14. Grammar school? That’s even worse than going to Eton!
11, yes. I’d like a boring repetition of me winning lots of money and women being unable to resist my grizzled charms.
I really, really, hope that Labour campaign like this. I also hope that they campaign as Guardians of the NHS. And on Education, Education, Education. And on their economic record. And on their conduct of the Afghan War. And on their Employment Record. And on a their more equable tax record.
If Labour do this then they play into Conservative hands as it looks like they have run out of ideas and cannot win on policy arguments. Remember how ’successful’ the Conservative ‘New Labour -New Danger’ campign with the ‘demon eyes’ was in 1997.
14 I went to prep school and boarding school…
15, on the other hand, some people believe Labour could win:
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
And here’s a brilliant party political:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1YtLMrPTD0
21. Arf! I don’t even need to read the URL, ‘win’ tipped me off.
Actually this poster is quite tame, I’d have expected some reference to Baby eating Tories.
Bottler Brown strikes again:
Move me and I leave, Alistair Darling told Brown during June reshuffle
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6798385.ece
21. I don’t need to look. Sion Simon should be Labour’s campaign manager with McBride and Draper as his assistants!
Murray wins. Traitor.
25 - I think one of the great political mysteries of our time is how on earth did Brown and his cronies managed to get the best of Tony Blair for so long
24. I like Alistair Darling, I don’t think he’s done a particularly good job, although God knows the previous incumbent left him a mess, but Darling was right about the severity of the down turn and does seem to have stopped some of the stupider ideas coming from No. 10.
When the history of this era is written Darling will come out of it looking a lot better than most of his colleagues.
Mike, I don’t think that that the younger generations coming through are as tribal in their politics as previous generations used to be. And a good example of that would be the Scottish elections in 2007.
Also, after 12 years of New Labour, their own party brand has become much more toxic and therefore lacks the credibility to make those claims. Who are the toffs in politics today, not so easy to decide anymore? And as for the older core Labour voters, well just what have this lot done for their pensions and savings, and do they really care about not turning up to vote Labour if the other lot might improve that situation?
Lets face it, change is a much more sexy option, especially when you are really angry about this government and you have plenty of other options these days. As for getting the Labour core vote out, Brown and this government would have been far better being more competent in running the economy, public services and staying away from wars which see this level of British casualties.
MD. you haven’t(yet) posted that Murray thrashed Del Potro 6-1 in the final set……….
15 All of that is true, but a really vicious campaign from Labour might just keep them over 200 seats, by persuading enough of their people to go out and vote. That type of campaign in London, last year, saw them to better than elsewhere in the country.
29, I did post but it had a word (not a swear word) deemed inappropriate and it was kept in moderation then deleted.
30, wasn’t that due to Ken’s popularity exceeding that of Labour generally?
Oh! . . . YES PLEASE!
That should ensure that the corrupt B******D’s never return to spy on us, interfere in our daily lives, overtax us, or screw up the economy - AGAIN!
The singing is up to Labour’s standard of competence but other than that I think this good be big for Labour!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vWlArfDZIA&feature=related
21 - that PPB is absolutely awful.
I also adore the idiotic first policy it mentions; the jobs for people unemployed for a year thing. If you had a job to give them, why not give it to them straight away and save all that dole money?
In what way is this message ’sophisticated’? A genuine question, not (just) sarcasm - it seems incredibly crude to me.
33. good = could (doh!)
30. But the rest of the country isn’t London…and Labour lack a candidate with Livingstone’s appeal (sic) to the rapidly shrinking core vote.
Such a campaign will only work in a few spots e.g. with big ethnic populations. Everywhere else it will bomb, turning off swing voters by the cartload and leading to a massacre.
That said, there’s no doubt Labour are cretinous enough to try it. And do they even have an alternative?
30. Sean Fear
The Livingstone campaign was all about getting the votes of Guardianistas and non white voters while abandoning the white working class and lower middle class to Boris.
That was able to get Labour a respectable results but still a clear defeat in London.
Trying it elsewhere will see them annihalated.
Not exactly many Conservative targets seats in the inner cities is there.
What’s all this Tories condemn terror comment story on the Beeb website with the broken link. Have they been nobbled?
The leaflet reminds me of the stuff coming through our letter box from Labour in 1959 when Supermac stormed to victory on the back of his grouse moor image.
FPT.
Afghanistan is a Tribal country in borders constructed by British and Russian pro-consuls in the latter part of the 19th century.
To have British troops die there is not new.
First Anglo-Afghan War (1839-1842): British lost 16,000 dead and sundry thousands wounded.
Second Anglo-Afghan War (1878-1880) British lost about 20,000 dead in a series of running battles.
Third Anglo-Afghan War (1919) In a short war in which Britain used air power for the first time, the British/Indian/Gurkha forces lost an twice the number of Afghan casualities. Number cannot be verified but beleived to be in the region of 2,000 or so men.
Apparently 204 dead is peanuts to old Gordo as it would have been for any past British government. But wheras those past governments had plenty of men, both Indian and British, to lose in any action,
the present British Army is miniscule in comparison with past bodies.
The Taliban can be beaten by us, but not in Afghanistan. As SeanT says, on the last thread, Luton is the place to start, and Banning the Burka and other intimidating dress as France proposes to do, would be a good start.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8203290.stm
The “toff” campaign in Crewe & Nantwich was - from Labour’s perspective - a total disaster. They would be mad to repeat it (which is no guarantee that they won’t).
The “core vote” to which they were hoping to appeal simply isn’t there any more : - died, unregistered, don’t bother voting, educated to fresh aspirations etc. etc.
It also brassed off lots of their own supporters/ campaigners, and motivated anti-Labour voters.
Believe me. I was there!!
I went to public schools. Of course, in Scotland that means schools which are publically provided and not ones which have to be privately paid for.
39 - it would be the comments by elder statesman Miliband, I presume.
It would be ridiculous and hypocritical of Labour to campaign on the ‘tory toffs’ issue.
However, I draw a distinction between what a person could not affect eg. parents wealth, education etc and the choices they make as an adult. The fact that Cameron saw fit to join the Bullingdon buggers and the arrogance that such a decision reveals, I think is fair game.
45 - So what about the living Bell end that is Andy Burnham who joined the Mornie Onion at Cambridge?
39, link works now:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8204159.stm
If Labour went for such a tactic that would be excellent for the SNP. So many of the Labour elite are “toffs” under our flatter class structure.
46. TSE: “So what about the living Bell end that is Andy Burnham who joined the Mornie Onion at Cambridge?”
The same.
I keep wondering lately if Mike is now working as Labour propagandist, or at least “Ideas Man”.
For many threads now mike has been posing the question: “Which is the Best way for Labour to beat the Tories?”
Now I know that Mr, Smithson is a lapsed/unlapsed (?) L/Dem member; has he now gone over to the Labour side?
V. friendly with Gabble, tim and Co lately. Just thought I’d ask.
51 - Plus OGH has been invited to speak at a fringe event at the Labour Party Conference.
The evidence mounts….
Here we go again, socialist morons having a go again at people who have been privately educated and MIke suggesting they go after Osborne because of his private education background. Labour and others that keep banging on about people being toffs because of their education are just sad empty people!
LOL at the idea of Lord Mandy, Harman and the Milibands moaning about toffs:)
45 Go for it Gabble, full throttle and see how far it gets you. Labour are the nasty party, personal attacks are the last refuge of a party with no ideas. The electorate are not as stupid as you would hope.
45,49. So we are to base our voting decisions on which clubs candidates joined at University? Is that the best you can do?
Personally I think they should focus on their Great Leader:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anX2rILSh3M&feature=related
Incidentally, on youtube check a vid poster called grumpyoldtwat. He is a big ‘fan’ of Gordon and Labour.
474, he does look kind of thunderbirdish, but not Parker, skin’s too light. With glasses could he be Brains?
It’s the lips that remind me of Parker, but very thunderbird-ish in general.
47. Slovo was a Communist and a self-hating jew and so was Millipeds father who was agreat propagandist for the far left.
50. weathercock
Even more worrying is OGH’s support for PM4PM.
I know Mike has a bet on it but I suspect its also affected by Mandelson’s contempt for the proles as Mike does prefer polticians not to waste their time among their constituents and that’s an advantage Mandelson has over his rivals.
52 It is particularly pathetic for privileged Labour activists to have a go at the Conservatives for being privileged, but there is probably a dwindling number of neanderthals who may just be motivated to come out and vote as a result of such a campaign.
Or perhaps Gordon ‘getting down’ for the yoof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS37nnFYzZ0&feature=related
Far Left = LOL
Israel = FULL OF WIN
Daily Mail - Top brass have ‘no idea’ how many troops have been wounded in Afghanistan as death toll hits 204
55. 45,49. So we are to base our voting decisions on which clubs candidates joined at University? Is that the best you can do?
I have to agree with Gabble, I think what people have done as adults is fair game, including vandalism etc. It shouldn’t be the be all and end all by any means, but om there/
59. As it happens I have a more than sneaking respect for Mandelson, being a man who can laugh at himself.
But beware any others who laugh at him. Then he can be nasty indeed.
And the latest from Labours Internet Queen:
OK, I’m going for a run. I may not be as fast as Usain Bolt but I can keep going for longer than 9.58 seconds. See you later, Twitizens.
http://twitter.com/kerrymp
Twitizens????!!!!
Noone who freely ADMITS to being SLOWER than Usain Bolt should be a member of the legislature.
This just goes to show how FAR the Commons has FALLEN under New Labour and the era of the PROFESSIONAL POLITICIAN!
50. 59
If your unfortunate enough to support the LibDims at the moment wouldn’t you be looking elsewhere for someone to cling too?
re 51. I’m also doing an event at the Tory conference - so the evidence mounts even further.
69 - Mike, shame on you for using facts to destory my argument. Don’t you know this is the interweb. Facts are not acceptable.
O/T (Sorry) - Well with the first Gameweek of the PB Fantasy football over i am predictably joint bottom. Well done to woodys randoms who are top having put faith in West Ham and Stoke defenders they were duly rewarded
64 I’m not saying club membership isn’t “fair game”, but I’m questionning whether it provides the true insight that we seek.
Most people (me included) didn’t go to University, so could regard anyone that did as unfairly privileged. However an even greater number of voters must surely recognise that undergraduates get up to all sorts of stupid antics which have absolutely no bearing on their suitability to be in Government some decades later.
I can’t believe that a cutting edge political betting audience can be persuaded that Undergraduate Club membership has any relevance.
69.Mike, have you been invited to speak at any events at the Libdem conference this year or at any other time since PB.com took off and became a resounding success?
Also, are you enjoying the freedom to devote more time to expanding PB.com and other betting and political avenues? I suspect you are going to be rushed off your feet managing the site as the GE draws nearer.
Or perhaps Labour could take a page out of Harry Enfield’s book:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnxPuidq1qQ
And with that I must depart for the evening:
Toodle Pip!
73. “However an even greater number of voters must surely recognise that undergraduates get up to all sorts of stupid antics which have absolutely no bearing on their suitability to be in Government some decades later.”
Undergraduates get up to all sorts of stupid antics which have absolutely no bearing on their suitability to be in Government some decades later, such as being joining the Communist Party and supporting the Soviet Union.
At least that’s the way it works if you are a Labour MP.
70. What’s the event you’re doing at the Tory conference Mike, I’ll try and get along to that.
72. Yes I’m rather pleased with the start, having 2 scoring defenders is a big help of course.
On David Milliband : This cretinous weaselly little pipsquittle has really excelled himself this time. This person has no place in the governance of a parish council nevermind the Foreign Ministry of Great Britain. I really hope nobody takes him at his word that terrorism can be justified because his government’s treachery and lies are enough to warrant a thousand bombs under ministerial Jaguars.
70. Great Mike!
Perhaps a couple of future threads could be on: “How can Cameron Smash Labour into the dungheap of history for good”.
Should have Gabble,tim and NPMP climbing the digital walls.
re 77. My Tory party fringe event is being organised by ModernGov and I’m party of a “world class” panel of pollsters etc.
Wednesday 7th OCT 2009
Midland Hotel (SECURE ZONE)
Colony Restaurant (Ground Floor) 21.30-23.30 Manchester
re 74. I’m in Glasgow at the end of August doing an event at a conference of politics academics.
Westminster Hour.. They must have been reading PB..talking about Mandleson.. “The politics of spin and smear”. Quite right too.
re 74. I was invited to do an event at the Lib Dem conference but I’m going to be on holiday in Northumberland.
As for the site - some really big developments in the pipeline.
83 - Any hints about the big developments?
Sorry this is off topic but just seen from the telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6038606/Alan-Duncan-faces-expenses-challenge-from-Terry-Waite.html that Martin Bell and Terry Waite are going to stand against Alan Duncan. Anyone know how likely he would be to lose? Would this really help Cameron if he did lose?
81 - Mike, will you worship at the very feet of the divine Pr Curtice in Glasgow?
CURTICE! CURTICE! CURTICE!
83 Mike S. “As for the site - some really big developments in the pipeline.”
How “big” …. are we talking Pickles big or Soames big ??
83.Mike, thanks, exciting times ahead.
re 84. I hope to be able to say something in the next couple of days.
re 87. We are talking Lembit big - you know what I mean!
89/90 - I cant wait
Prays it something that allows you to ignore certain posters.
90 Mike S.
Bloody hell. Aliens taking over PB …. actually perchance not so big as some days it’s hard they’re not in charge !!
No - but look back to your history - Labour have always campaigned like this. it might have some dog whistle success with core vote but if countered with the obvious tactic of offering reward for ‘aspersion’ it will fail.
Meantime more sad news …
Depressingly 3 more soldiers have does in explosions on patrol in Sangin. We do not know if they have been killed in a vehicle.
The picture is further depressed by the location. I am happy to be corrected but some half dozen soldiers have been killed in the last few days in what is in effect a rear area.
To me this suggests that the campaign is stalled is failing even. The current drawn out situation strikes me as analogous to the first day of the Somme. Then we set out in good heart with a good plan, or so we thought. But the plan failed.
On the Somme within 2 weeks new tactics were devised and 2 years later the British Army inflicted a catastrophic defeat on the German Army. We always remember the Somme but we should not forget Amiens.
The question is can the modern British Army similarly develop the tactics which will bring, if not victory, then security.
The immediacy of national survival is not there (although Brown in fact uses this as a justification, but the analogy with WW1 is valid I feel. Then and now a whole new unexpected set of problems are facing our soldiers. Like then it will be a painful experience in overcoming them.
And in the context of fighting terrorism - which is our avowed reason for being in Afghanistan - Milliband’s word are an utter utter disgrace. What a slap in the face for our soldiers.
89-Teaser. I wanna know. Will I still be able to be first?
90. Mike, that big??!!
I used to love the comedy Coupling, and anyone who remembers Patrick’s legendary pulling power, or the time Sally had to weigh up her dislike of dating Tories against it. Priceless.
The Labour Party shouldn’t campaign on class.
It should bring in hypocrisy.
If Cameron claims he is going to share the pain of the financial situation it should be pointed out that the tories tax plans enrich the Camerons.
Tory toffs posters you cannot be serious, man.
How big a swing did C and N bring against Labour?
96.Tim, where have you been the last 12 years!!!
How will this political PR own goal effect the prices for Thirsk and Malton?
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/goldlist/
PB is going to be joining forces with Martin Day’s site.
Labour could be reminded about the attempt to parachute Georgina Gould in SE London, Tasmin at C and N, Harriet’s hubby at goodness knows where, as well as trying to let gorbals mickson in at that Glasgow seat.
14 I went to prep school and boarding school…
by Maggie Thatcher Fan August 16th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
I’m thinking of putting together a groundbreaking class action under the sale of goods act, would you like to join.
Wiggin had to back out fearing Eton would counter sue on reputation grounds.
99 Which one?
“I can’t believe that a cutting edge political betting audience can be persuaded that Undergraduate Club membership has any relevance.”
Ed Balls must hope so - he was a member of a misogynistic Oxford drinking club - the Steamers. I can’t be bothered to link to the well known picture of him dressed up like a nazi storm trooper. Any more than linking to the photo of the Austrian member of one of labours Euro coalition partners similarly garbed (goose stepping to boot).
Mike, we’re not getting Derek Draper as a contributing editor on this site?
102 - The NC = NK site for starters and we’ll see how it goes.
96 which tax plans enrich the Camerons tim?
99.Double Carpet, quick, order the smelling salts and indigestion tablets.
Query, I use firefox, can I do anything to sort out my problem of loading my details every time I post. Its now driving me nuts!
99 - How about merging with Guido, think of some of those comments on here.
OGH would be tearing his hair out 24/7
A “class action” from the T.I.M. would certainly be groundbreaking…
Apologies if already posted:
Vince Cable writing in the Guardian:
“The rich must be reined in”
“There is now a compelling case for a high pay commission”
What socialist rubbish from a “liberal”.
106 - Which don’t may be a better question.
I don’t think the first time buyers stamp duty will but the married thingy and IHT will be worth a good wedge.
Perhaps more to the point is which increased taxes will Dave pay?
Are we going to get to interview someone?
111.”Perhaps more to the point is which increased taxes will Dave pay?”
Well income tax for a start if he wins the GE!
111 IHT doesn’t benefit them unless someone dies and they inherit some money in excess of the existing limit. and there was not already tax planning in place. I don’t expect you have access to any relevant last wills and testaments to be able to amke a judgement.
I expect Gordon benefitted from the reduction in basic rate and from the 10p tax rate when it was first brought in, and from all changes to the personal allowance ever made as chancellor.
The increased taxes we remain to see - no-one as it stands appears to be paying more until we know what rises and when.
Wow - Tim’s cornered himself into arguing that tax decreases aren’t acceptable because the people instituting them will benefit themselves.
111. ROFL , Tim doesnt get it, the rich tend not to pay inheritance tax because they make sure their affairs are in good order, by paying people to come up with schemes that avoid it.
The people who get caught are the affluent middle classes, those with properties that put them in the inheritance tax band, and thats without savings, but arent wealthy enough to pay someone to take the action necessary to escape the clasping hands of IHT.
108. It will be revealed that PB.com is a front for the popular campaign to re-elect Nick Palmer…
115 - But Dave claims he’ll share the pain.
I’m sure he’ll emote a lot, and if he’s not already in a tax avoidance scheme will fill his families boots
£480,000 Ker-ching
117 - The Committee to Re-elect Palmer? or CREEP for short?
“if he’s not already in a tax avoidance scheme”
Ah, it begins. That didn’t take long.
118 - Tim, so you think it’s ok to Tax income twice? Once as income or dividends, then when you die, you get taxed?
116 - Then let him fight an election campaign on “sharing the pain and how my family will be avoiding IHT”
118 lol, laughable line of attack.
You think Labour should campaign that Cameron and his wife are going to change the law and hope that a close family member dies so that they can benefit from the change of law?
Muppet.
121 - I do. As do all three parties.
93
Trevorsden
‘And in the context of fighting terrorism - which is our avowed reason for being in Afghanistan - Milliband’s word are an utter utter disgrace. What a slap in the face for our soldiers.’
Our reason is to prop up a governement whose president has just passed a law that legalises rape in marriage,where a wife must get permission from her husband to leave the house,work or have education.Exactly the same repressive medieavel laws that they have in Saudi Arabia.
Meanwhile to prop up this vile government over 200 british soldiers have been killed and thousands wounded whilst trying to fight and unwinnable war with sub standard equipment.
123 - No.
Just that Daves policies (from what we have seen) will hit the middle classes and protect the rich, particularly the married rich.
118 Pretty much every single person that has lost someone they care about and has paid IHT will see Labour for what they are with that line of attack.
Go fot it.
123- Such as?
126, not 123….
126 That’s a different argument.
You had to make it personal and talk about the Cameron’s personally ‘benefitting’ from the death of a close loved one - the electorate will think of Ivan Cameron and will hiss Labour into oblivion if you go down that route.
So Bob Ainsworth reckons we’ll be out of Afghanistan in about a year.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6039189/Bob-Ainsworth-troops-will-be-out-of-Afghanisan-in-a-year-or-so.html
I need to invent some new words that will do justice for my contempt for this man and Gordon Brown.
130 - Don’t be silly.
Anyhow, use Osborne as an example instead.
I’m sure he’ll be wittering about evryone sharing the burden, but not his family.
Daily Mail - 204 dead heroes and one clueless minister… yet ‘Afghanistan can be sorted out in a year’
“Last night Colonel Tim Collins, who commanded the 1st Battalion of Royal Irish Regiment during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, said: ‘I’d be very careful about what Bob Ainsworth says when it’s the Government’s spectacular lack of planning and strategy that has been at the root of the problem.
‘Rather than making wild predictions he would be well advised to look at what the Americans are doing and concentrate on sticking around until the job is done.’
General Lord Guthrie, former Chief of the Defence Staff, attacked the Government’s failure to put the country on a war footing and give troops the necessary equipment.
He said: ‘Those in Afghanistan believe, quite rightly, they are at war but there is no feeling in Whitehall that this is the case”
126 - unlike Labour, who will economically butt-rape you regardless of class.
132 - So you think attacking Cameron’s family is fair game.
Excellent. The more you do that, the bigger the Tory majority.
132 I am not being silly tim, thats the line you were taking ‘£480,000 kerching’ - completely tasteless. Also tasteless if applied to someone elses family.
As for married allowance etc, its no different to changing personal allowances or the tax rate as Brown has many times and beenfitted from personally.
It’s a facile line of attack and you should certainly encourage Labour to go for it, we can have a numpty leaue for every minister that trots it out.
126 tim “Just that Daves policies (from what we have seen) will hit the middle classes and protect the rich, particularly the married rich.”
I thought it was Inheritance Tax you were so excited about?
You know - that tax which, before Osborne’s famous intervention at the 2007 Conservative Conference, hit any estate of around £350K+ - pretty much a definition of the middle classes, given house prices at the time - but didn’t affect the rich - who could afford the professional fees necessary to rearrange their affairs to avoid the tax.
Luckily Brown and Darling pretty much copied Osborne’s idea, with a few minor tweaks, so it’s no longer an issue.
Only millionaires pay inheritance tax now, thanks to Osborne. Hard-working middle-class families, like hard-working working-class families, don’t.
135 - Its fair to ask how much pain the emoting dave will be sharing.
So far the answer is none.
Can anyone name a Tory tax and benefit change that means Dave shares some pain?
132.Change the record, or at least show a bit of balance. What about the IHT arrangements of current members of this government?
131. TSE.
I think they’re targetting late April…
Daniel Hannan
Alan Duncan
Anne Main
…all bad’uns and all still in position, thanks to dithering Dave.
Epic fail.
138 - Yes, his proposed increase of the top rate tax to 50%.
Next.
141 like Straw, Darling and Brown - all bad uns and all still in position
137 - If its no longer an issue, how come it remains a Tory priority.
And I understand it applies to a couple leaving up to £2 Million.
Is that correct?
140 - You mean around the time of the next election???????
You cynic, Gordon would never use the armed forces for his own political benefit would he?
142 - The 50p tax rate is not a Tory Policy.
Thats like claiming he’ll be paying more because he accepts a high council tax band that already exists.
So a Tory policy please.
144 who cares? you’ve set out your expert line of attack - go for it, and get Labour to use it as well, we can all laugh at the fall out.
I hope Bob has spoken to General Sir David Richards.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6788043.ece
140.Words just fail me, really.
146 can you name a Tory policy that involves anyone paying more tax at this time tim?
‘http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/aug/16/fraudster-liberal-democrats
Not looking good for the Lib Dems,they didn’t even bother to check that their donor company was trading.
145. TSE.
Never!
It raises a scary thought. $DEITY forbid it, but what if the fortnight leading up to the election see a succession of deaths like we’ve seen over the last month or so?
“My guess is that many elements in the party would love to campaign like this…” ??!!
You’re joking, of course.
I don’t know which head office nutter was behind the C&N leaflet to which you refer, I suspect it’s someone who has been sacked.
110. I wonder what someone like David Laws thinks of Cable’s illiberal nonsense. He has a point about those like bankers in industries under-pinned by government guarantees, but is he really going to intervene in the pay of filmstars and sportsmen.
Politicians have enough under their direct control which they need to put right: the high pay in the BBC and the proliferation of well-paid jobs in the public sector, being good examples.
Perhaps we’ll see a dividing line between the Social Democrats and the old Liberal elements in the LibDem coalition, which many of us always thought was an unnatural alliance anyway.
Tim is simple trying to divert the thread this evening. Its become a well worn tactic of his. Better to focus on what he doesn’t want us to be debating this evening…
155 oh well, twas fun anyway
I’m going to hit the hay
Night all
Just catching up on thread and can’t believe that anyone would think campaigning on a toffs / private education ticket is a ‘good idea’.
I also went to a private school - my older brothers didn’t as my parents couldn’t afford it for them 8/9 yrs earlier.
We lived above the shop and never ever went on a family holiday as they couldn’t afford it/time away.
Does this make me a ‘toff’ too?
Oh and when my parents died early in their 60s from cancer/crap NHS treatment in the early 00s - their estate paid over £300k of IHT based on the value of the small business they worked 16hrs a day for 30 yrs.
I deeply regret ever voting Labour.
157 - It’s ok Plato, a lot of people were misled by Blair.
I remember one friend urging everyone to Vote Labour in 1997, because the Tories will introduce tuition fees.
I’ve never seen anyone so heartbroken when Labour did exactly that.
Skynews - Front pages
“Pirate Party “overwhelmed” by file sharing response”
“Reports from various quarters have suggested that around 100 new members are signing up every hour to the party, but Eric Priezkalns, party treasurer, said he still needed to validate the figures about memberships received to date.”
http://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/153120,pirate-party-overwhelmed-by-file-sharing-response.aspx
159 Are you sure you intended to post that? Mandy will be pleased
Doh, I’ve just figured out the site change…
gabble has taken over, and you will only be allowed to post if you have an ID card to match all your tracked Internet traffic.
Where can I apply?
Not sure I like the sound of this one… Civil liberties anyone?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1206965/Extradition-threat-hundreds-Britain-signs-EU-law.html?ITO=1490
“The Home Office believes the number sent to face justice overseas is likely to treble when the draconian new agreement comes into force next April.
It means Britons in receipt of a European arrest warrant (EAW) could be sent for trial anywhere else in the EU for minor crimes such as drunkenness and driving offences.
The major extension of police powers comes as campaigners fight the extradition of computer hacker Gary McKinnon to the U.S.
European arrest warrants are already issued by EU nations, and British police forces usually respond to those relating to serious offences such as terrorism and organised crime.
Under the controversial new rules, a key part of the so-called Schengen Information II system, the police will be forced to respond to all EAWs.
Anyone who has an EAW issued against him or her will be automatically taken into custody. British courts must then allow an extradition, even if there are concerns about the standards of justice in the country they are being sent to. For example, trials in Poland, Greece and Bulgaria are often held without an English translation.
Last month the Daily Mail highlighted how 20-year- old Briton Andrew Symeou was extradited to Greece under an EAW to face charges of killing a British teenager in a fight in a bar. He claims his friends were beaten by police into implicating him…”
161 - Stop giving Labour new ideas.
161 And have put your wheelie bin out on the correct day with the lid firmly closed…
This was really the most pathetic and childish campaign ever seen. They put the “toff” in a Bentley (one of Crewe’s main employers), they attacked a member of one of the most visible local business families which has a good reputation to work for and they completely misread the non-Crewe part of this constituency. It attacked ambition and enterprise and plaid only to envy and tried to motivate the core vote. It failed spectacularly. You see, people don’t care about the background of someone as long as it isn’t loony (Hatton) or offensive (BNP). They watched a government saying one thing and doing another (10p, Iraq) and saw right through it. Let’s not forget that there was a near direct transfer of votes from Labour to Conservative with little leaking to the minor parties.
There will always be some idiots who respond to this nonsense or try and peddle it (we can see that on here) - the thing is, it doesn’t fit into the British psyche anymore. This government talks only amongst itself or in Westminster mode. It has no new policies, no new faces and the scheming of Mandleson is all that has been on the news when reflecting Labour. The NHS attack ran out of steam and will affect only the margins. I hope they try this - it will just mean more of the PLP joining me on Brown’s Unemployment Scrapheap.
And O/T, but this must be the first time we’ve been in the top 4 for an awful long time…
162 - So basically, some Judge in Spain could issue a warrant for Tony Blair in relation to war crimes….. And the government would have to hand him over?
I hope the site changes include a clock that keeps good time and the return of the deit fnuciton.
165.Sth London Nick, how is the job hunting going, any promising leads?
165
NHS issue was raised by an ‘eccentric’ Tory and I don’t think Labour have finished with it yet.It still has legs and may very well still do come election day.
*** BETTING POST ***
Someone on Betfair is laying Lee Westwood at 1.8 for the top UK & Ireland player as the USPGA, despite him being the clubhouse leader
“Someone on Betfair is laying Lee Westwood”
I was home all night and I got witnesses gov..!
169.You obviously have not seen tomorrow’s front pages.
And never underestimate the ability of a tired government on its way out to revert to naval gazing of the worst kind.
166 Perhaps they could extradite Thatcher while they are at it.Can think of many crimes she committed.
170. update.
dead heat rules apply.
Yang by one from Woods with one hole to play.
Yang should have virtually wrapped it up by now - Woods’ putting has been poor by his standards over the last few holes - but has just three-putted the 17th.
Via Dale:
http://heresycorner.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-you-are-funding-taliban.html
173 Such as? Citations? I never voted for Thatcher so would be interested to learn about this.
173 - Perhaps you’d like to list them.
I do love lefties hating Maggie, makes me feel proud.
177 - I’m sure the General Belgrano will get mentioned.
On topic, I hope Labour do try to use tactics like that in the General Election, because they would get thrashed for their troubles. Tactics like that can only work if there is a scintilla of truth in the allegations, but in C&N, remember, it was Ms Dunwoody who was the only candidate with an entry in Debrett’s Peerage, whereas the Tory was a cobbler’s grandson (!) who did pro bono work as a barrister for the local family centre.
179 Glad you reminded me. Think I’ll email Interpol.
Strong stuff from David Blunkett in the Times:
“It was, therefore, deeply unfortunate to hear the Shadow Health Secretary on the BBC Radio 4 Today programme on Aug 14 suggesting that politicians in this country intervene to stop cancer drugs being prescribed to those who need them. Andrew Lansley knows perfectly well that, as with the adverts in the US, he was choosing to dissemble and distort the reality of how decisions are made here about prioritisation and clinical need.
Those who tell untruths about our own system in order to deny others the benefit of even modest improvements in health coverage in another country need to examine deeply their conscience and their morality.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article6798223.ece
168 - Hi ChristinaD - Thanks for asking - none I’m afraid. I keep plugging away (rebuilding my portfolio website and learning JQuery Javascript to jazz it up) and applying for work. I’m sure I’ll find something, but employers can specify a shoe size as part of the criteria at the moment. I posted yesterday that my monthly “check ups” have been cancelled as they cannot cope with the numbers at the job centre any more. It’s very very grim at the moment.
169 - valleyboy - I’m sure they’ll keep trying, but every time the Tories say we’ll increase spending and Labour waffle it dies a death. I like Hannan and some of his ideas are worthwhile (Primaries for example and some of the localism) but he is flat wrong about the NHS. However people are open to the idea that the NHS can be better than it is and can achieve more. I postulated a good line on this yesterday that I think the Tories will use. They are in a position that the public are now listening to them and not Labour. When a government reaches that it fails to get its message across.
179 I wonder how many Belgano casualties would fit into Iraq civilian losses?
The former warship directed by an aggressor to British sovereign territory and the other…
181 - As Tam Dayell put it, at least Thatcher had the excuse of Argentinian aggression, even Blair couldnt use that argument vis a vis Iraq
176. Nothing new, the UK & US have been aware of this for some time. The public game is that its all down to the poppy crop, burn it and cut the Taliban’s sole fund raising source.
Its a nonsense.
Front Pages:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Mondays-Papers—Newspaper-Front-Pages-Monday-August-14-2009/Media-Gallery/200908315362524?lpos=Home_Left_Promo_Region_0&lid=GALLERY_15362524_Mondays_Papers_-_Newspaper_Front_Pages_Monday%2C_August_14%2C_2009
173. Name me one.
180
My outsiders view on Crewe was not the toff thing wot done it, but the fact that the Tories gor their rural vote out, whereas Labour didn’t get their urban vote out.A similar thing happened down here in Preseli and did for TD in the Assembly elections.
182. Gabble.
By “strong stuff”, I presume you mean “bollocks”.
Blunkett’s use of the word “suggesting” is a dead giveaway.
Sounds like Blunkett’s been spending too much time in the Duke of Devonshire’s wine cellar.
I wonder if he still thinks that the greatest economic difficulty that Sheffield faces is not having properly qualified wine waiters?
Ah those front pages - more bad news for the Tories, not.
189 - Erm, the polling returns showed a lot of Urban switchers direct from Labour to Tory.
185. And the fact we were defending something we owned, rather then trying to take something away from something other people owned.
The reason why the Falklands is such a big bone of contention for those on the left, was that it heralded a new day in the history of this nation, no longer were its people willing to settle for managed decline.
183.Sth London Nick, sorry to hear that and I hope something turns up soon for you and the posters here who are in the same position.
“but he is flat wrong about the NHS. However people are open to the idea that the NHS can be better than it is and can achieve more.”
I totally agree with that view.
194 - Very well put sir.
Yang wins.
Stephen Glover in the Daily Mail - So Mr Miliband thinks terrorism is ‘justifiable’. That makes him even more of a grade-A chump than I already thought
Sometimes simple and direct works best…
http://www.mattwardman.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/q-political-leaflet-sdpcros811.jpg
196. Thank You. Margaret Thatcher will be remembered by history as one of the greatest political leaders this country has ever had, and without doubt the greatest in peace time. She will be spoken in global terms, as possibly one of the greatest leaders anywhere in the globe of the past five hundred years.
193
I won’t doubt what you say about urban switchers as I have not seen the returns for Crewe,but my main point was that the toff thing had little negative impact on labour’s campaign. Other factors did for TD.
The Bullington thing could be an issue at a GE, and it will be interesting to see how Labour plays this one.
199. RodC
It didn’t in 1983.
200 Pass me the sick bag.
194 It won her the 1983 GE.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5266698/why-we-need-a-proper-debate-about-healthcare.thtml
Interesting poll from the OECD. Obviously I don’t have the background, but this reinforces what I’ve said - a really positive proposal on the NHS could become a vote winner. I have a former colleague who was diagnosed with terminal cancer a few years ago. The experience of the NHS was a tale of the good, the bad and the ugly. As a last hope they agreed to go down the route of experimental drugs. They are still here to see their child grow up. It is some of the best news I’ve had in the past few years.
201. Valleyboy
The thing that had a negative impact on Labour at Crewe and elsewhere was the Labour government.
And that’s something you can’t get away from.
“Cameron woe deepens over NHS dissent”
“David Cameron remained embroiled in a battle to maintain party unity last night after the Conservatives were hit with more apparent splits over the future of the NHS.
Senior Tories, shadow ministers and incoming MPs were all implicated in the row, which showed no sign of abating over the weekend. The Tory leader faces widespread opposition among his MPs to his pledge to ring-fence health spending should he form the next government.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/cameron-woe-deepens-over-nhs-dissent-1773092.html
202. Boundary changes and Tories overcompensating for an expected loss…
Tragic. I lost a good tenant.
205 Of course labour,like most mid term governments get a kicking, so the result at Crewe is only of significance to people like us who have nothing better to so at this time of night.
Gabble
A few weeks ago you were getting all excited about Coulson.
Remind me what was the effect of that?
Should Labour fight the general election like this?
No.
I am what the Labour Party regards as a ‘target voter’. Yet it is this sort of attitude towards success that puts me off the Labour Party today - a nasty campaign that attacks the hard-work, innovation, education and industry of others, that thrives on jealousy, envy and power lust, that seeks to ‘divide and rule’, and manipulate into keeping power indefinitely.
I actually now despise Labour because of this. It is quite simply abhorrent, and pure gutter politics. I especially blame Gordon Brown for it, who evidence indicates is a lifelong Communist (pretending to invoke Christianity recently, when he has systematically attacked the Churches over the years).
Many of us that grew up in poverty and went to very bad comprehensive schools (and that’s most of them), but nevertheless have had a strong desire to rise above what we were born into, admire those that have gone to good schools, are well educated, civilised and polite. They have treated us well, united and inspired us, given us jobs, educated us, tolerated our faults, and corrected our errors, and allowed us to become successful and prosperous. Without them there would be no jobs, because there would be no investment or innovation.
This is the British way. This is what was fostered by the great Grammar Schools, which Labour destroyed.
The attitude displayed in the campaign in Crewe and Nantwich is alien to Britain. It belongs to Communist Russia and militant Marxism. I suggest these people go and live in Moldova (oh, I forget, they have just kicked out the Commies as well).
If the Labour Party want to survive with more than 150 MP’s after the next election offer an honourable campaign. Make a positive case for votes. After 13 years in power, resorting to the above sort of bile will result in wipeout.
206.
Attempts at producing a self-fulfilling prophecy don’t often work.
209 How do you know most comprehensives are bad?
Right massively off topic, am i the only one who is scared sh1tless that the bloody convicts are going to thrash us next week at the oval?
208. another richard: “A few weeks ago you were getting all excited about Coulson. Remind me what was the effect of that?”
He’s right at the heart of the tory experiment - just where Labour want him.
211 - The league tables.
203. valleyboy: It won her the 1983 GE.
Ridiculous.
If nothing else, the longest suicide note in history may have had just a little to do with it.
The reason the left hate Thatcher is obvious: she ended socialism’s ability to be an election-winning ideology in Britain.
211 - Oh, and the fact, that when any lefty politican has to choose a comprehensive school for their kids, they end up choosing some private school.
Yes you, Blair, Harman and Abbot, you sodding hypocrites.
207. valleyboy
We’re over 4 1/4 years into this parliament, it is no longer mid term.
Take a look at Gabble’s and tim’s comments.
They give no reasons to vote Labour all they can do is smear.
Labour only wants to maintain power for the sake of doing so, they have no ideas about how to improve the country.
209 I can’t remember the last time I heard a Labour politician or poster on PB say anything terribly constructive about their future policies that weren’t framed in Tory baby-eating terms.
FFS What are they thinking of - double digit poll deficits for MONTHS and still no positive reason to vote for them.
Perhaps Gordon just needs MORE TIME to set out his vision - we’ve only been waiting for 25 months…
211. valleyboy: How do you know most comprehensives are bad?
Alistair Campbell said so?
206 Gabble, I think people a bit more mature than you seem to credit. The NHS is simply a mechanism whereby people in the UK insure themselves against the costs of medical treatment. Other countries do it differently: some better and cheaper, some worse and more expensive. The idea that the NHS is set in stone and cannot be criticised or changed, is part of the reason why Labour (post Blair) is in disarray.
David Laws made a valid point in the Orange Book. Luckily he is a LibDem not a Tory so no-one took any notice.
“In many continental European countries (often regarded as dangerously left-wing by commentators in this country), a totally different model of health care provision does exist, which does offer citizens greater choice and variety. The model is usually described as representing a “social insurance” approach, where the state funds all health care out of progressive taxation but people can choose between different providers.
In many of these European countries, waiting lists are regarded as an absurd British eccentricity, and the fixation with having only one state provider is regarded as absurdly out of date. The social insurance systems are identified with greater choice and competition for patients, better funding and health outcomes.
This is surely a model which we in the UK could be learning from. Could we not have a more meaningful and adult debate about how to build a health system fit for the 21st century, on the basis of the very principles which underpinned the foundation of the NHS? For example, why not switch from a monopoly NHS system to a National Health Insurance Scheme - with the NHS remaining in place, but as only one of the options available to all citizens?”
213. Gabble
That’s curious because you were desperate to get him sacked last month.
Another failure for you and Tim.
I hope you both get paid per comment posted and not by their political effectiveness.
213 Gabble - HAHAHAHHAA
213. Gabble - don’t tell me; the next part of this master plan is for the Tories to win a landslide majority at the GE, after which they will be in real trouble, right?
213 - Gabble, Henceforth, you shall be known as Jock Strap, let’s face it, you’re full of bo11ocks
182, 206. Gabble, no one cares.
The public is not positive about the NHS, and if anything Dan Hannan’s comments are popular. There is a popular mood wanting reform of the NHS particularly wanting an end to monumental waste of taxpayer’s money.
Outside the other big taxpayer funded UK monopoly called the BBC, and the rump Labour Party, no one cares.
We ‘put up with the NHS’. No one loves it or especially likes it. Look at the dismal failure of the Facebook campaign ‘We love the NHS’, despite all the publicity the issue got last week. More people have joined a Facebook group wanting a Big Brother contestant to go nude!
I refer you to the Yougov poll on the NHS conducted only a year ago. To quote :
‘A special YouGov survey for The Daily Telegraph shows that millions of Britons are apprehensive about its future and believe it is already riddled with waste and mismanagement.’
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/2219100/NHS-The-nation-fears-for-its-future.html
*still laughing* I’m off to Planet Nod
Nite Jim Bob.
225. “The public is not positive about the NHS, and if anything Dan Hannan’s comments are popular”.
I got as far as that and was too busy laughing to read the rest.
Actually I expect we will have an NHS poll soon…
227. Which proves why you’ve lost the argument.
225.
“NHS London reports ’sharp improvement’ in public satisfaction”
“Public satisfaction with the health service in London has shown a “sharp improvement”, a poll has revealed.
The phone poll by Ipsos MORI for NHS London, of around 3,000 residents, showed 79 per cent strongly agreed or tended to agree the NHS provided them with a good service.
It was an 11 percentage point increase from a similar poll for the strategic health authority in 2006.”
http://www.hsj.co.uk/news/acute-care/nhs-london-reports-sharp-improvement-in-public-satisfaction/5000802.article
re 206 Gabble the Wellingborough MP seems to be talking absolute sense to me. The way Labour has treated the NHS whereby doctors have to leave sick people to go and treat those that have waited 3hrs55min could be described as nothing other than Stalinist.
225 Gabble, you old whiner, what’s your point? A survey of the capital city’s healthcare system, which one would guess has received skiploads of cash, shows an improvement in public satisfaction - what about the rest of the country?
BTW how’s Rotherham tonight?
225.
“NHS satisfaction highest for over 20 years”
“The public is more satisfied with the NHS than at any time since 1984, according to the latest British Social Attitudes report.
The report, by the King’s Fund, said that over half (51%) of people are “very satisfied” or “quite satisfied” with the NHS, up 17% since 1997. Thirty per cent of people are “dissatisfied”, down from 50% in 1997.”
http://www.hi-mag.com/healthinsurance/article.do?articleid=20000137961&adname=his_breaking_news
225.
“NHS satisfaction highest for over 20 years”
“The public is more satisfied with the NHS than at any time since 1984, according to the latest British Social Attitudes report.
The report, by the King’s Fund, said that over half (51%) of people are “very satisfied” or “quite satisfied” with the NHS, up 17% since 1997. Thirty per cent of people are “dissatisfied”, down from 50% in 1997.”
233.
http://www.hi-mag.com/healthinsurance/article.do?articleid=20000137961&adname=his_breaking_news
233. http://tinyurl.com/m6r76h
229. If you really think that people don’t like the NHS then you are deluded. They moan about it but everyone knows someone who’s life has been saved by it. Attack it at your peril.
233.
They shouldn’t believe everything they read in the papers.
235. Monty.
There’s a difference between thinking it’s a good idea in principle but could be run better (most people) and loving it exactly the way it is unconditionally and thinking any attempt to reform it even marginally is tantamount to destroying it (lefties).
225. Gabble, the MORI poll is NOT a national poll, is NOT weighted or properly sampled and so it’s irrelevant. It is a poll of ‘3,000 residents’ that doesn’t appear to be either weighted or sampled. It seems to be a ’straw poll’.
And few take MORI seriously as a pollster after it’s wild innaccuracy in predicting election outcomes over the last 10 years.
Put you faith in Yougov, they’ve successfully predicted nearly every election for the last 4 years.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/2219100/NHS-The-nation-fears-for-its-future.html
Should Labour fight the general election like this?
Yes please.
233. Gabble, no one trusts government funded ‘reports’ on ‘attitudes’ which promote it’s own policies, after the many fiascoes over fiddled inflation figures, fiddled unemployment figures, fiddled crime figures, etc, etc.
‘Tractor and steel production is on the rise according to the latest government survey of tractor and steel production……….zzzzzzzzz. Stalin is jubilant, the people are euphoric……..zzzzzzzzz.’
‘Monty - If you really think that people don’t like the NHS then you are deluded. They moan about it but everyone knows someone who’s life has been saved by it.’
And most of us also know someone that has nearly been killed by it due to incompetance.
I know 3 including myself - one actually died, family sued and won.
Botched operations, prescribing the wrong drugs, very badly wrong diagnosis, refusal to provide treatment promtly, refusal to provide a doctor’s appointment in less than 1 and half weeks! - I have know many that have experienced this list of incompetance and neglect.
Everybody knows that if you want decent treatment you have to go private.
209 (and many more) from Will L: Will, I just want to reassure you after reading your thoughts. I do NOT consider you a target voter for Labour. Relax. We won’t try to persuade you. Vote for someone else.
242. lol
As is my more considered,middle-position,I will attempt to be totally reasonable:
(a)Probably 90% of todays teemagers go to comprehensive secondary schools- for a majority,their progrss to further education is a BIG positive
(b)Believe it or not-I for one can see beyond the ‘public-good’,'private-bad’ name-calling over the NMS since c.Friday- a programme of ‘opt-out’ for say families earning £60-70 K/annum,with a commensurate tax break,would free up resources for the other 85-odd % As a guy good at maths,it sounds like perfect common sense!
(c)It reuely makes me shudder to admit-but Maggie did a few things right
At that point,I must raid my drinks cabinet to dull the shock,see ya all soon,all the best!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/16/swine-flu-tamiflu-helpline-paracetamol
#241 Will L
Thanks for the warning re the incompetence of the English NHS. I’ll make sure that my travel insurance covers any of my trips to England.
245. oldnat.
Very droll. I’m looking forward to the referendum, but apparently Salmond hasn’t got a round tuit yet.
oldnat, you’re welcome.
One point-I personally think Stephen McCabe,the Cottish-born MP for Birmigham Hall Green,who co-orinated the ‘toff’ campaign in Crewe and Nantwich,should think 3 or 4 times before he attempts any other such campaign-if I lived inhis seat I would especially enjoy voting Lib Dem; as I live in Bournemouth East I merely add 1 or 2 to Tobias Ellwood (who IS a very nice guy,I hasten to add)’s majority
Gabble doesn’t your poll tell us that 49% are not satisfied with the NHS?
No other conclusion if, as you quote, only 51% say they are in anyway satisfied.
245.”Thanks for the warning re the incompetence of the English NHS. I’ll make sure that my travel insurance covers any of my trips to England.”
oldnat, I would worry about the state of the NHS nearer to home.
Unionists = LOL
Salmond and Sturgeon = Full of win.
How can we trust a government and its strategy whose Deputy Prime Minister when the war started spelt things out as clearly as this:
The objectives remain the same and indeed it has been made clear by the Prime Minister in a speech yesterday that the objectives are clear. And the one about the removal of the Taliban is not something we have as a clear objective but it is possibly a consequence that will flow from the Taliban clearly giving protection to Bin Laden and the UN resolution made it absolutely clear that anyone that finds them in that position declares themselves an enemy and that clearly is a matter for these objectives. August 2002
252 LOL. Crystal.
Shouldn’t we, genuinely, be, as a ‘nation’ be looking at just how John Prescott got to the rank of Deputy Prime Minister.
It’s as much of a national embarrassment as the yanks with Bush IMO!
http://delivernothinglabourparty.blogspot.com/2009/08/why-does-gordon-brown-still-have-pliant.html
Thank Gawd we have Martin Day to hold this vile government to account!
256. Ezio Auditore da Firenze August 17th, 2009 at 2:45 am
257.”the guy is an idiot!”
Martin, sadly he is our idiot and not someone else’s. Remember when some felt superior because they had Tony instead of George?
Keep it up Martin, you do a better job holding the PM to account than a certain backbench MP who wastes time posting on here when he should be, constantly without pause for sleep or food, be responding to the letters and e-mails of his constituents!!!
Broxtowe = PLAID CYMRU GAIN!
258. Yes - I dont know how idiots get to the top? Really puzzles me.
259. Dont blame him for coming in here - probably less hostile!
Many pissed off people around the country at the moment!
in - on!
Sounds rude!
Now, now Martin.
Everyone knows Broxtowe isn’t hostile. It’s the only place in the country that is swinging towards Labour
:) 
http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Gordon+Brown+Greets+President+Sarkozy+Downing+1U9lzm8b6Nwl.jpg
Stunning evidence of just how pathetic and petty our PM really is.
Japanese economy out of recession:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article6798681.ece
Brown said we were best placed - Why are we shrinking whilst the world grows?
From the Times piece: “Savaged by public opinion and on course to lead his Liberal Democratic Party to a historic defeat on August 30, Prime Minister Taro Aso will now be fighting with a signal success to his name: he promised earlier this year that Japan would be among the very first developed economies to claw their way back from recession, and he has – more or less – made good on that.”
I seem to remember Brown saying something like that - Brown has been found out to be a liar and a cheat. He also could not deliver the goods.
260 Idiots get to the top in organisations where managerial competence is not required. The Labour party, some trades unions, some family business - all good examples.
“on course to lead his Liberal Democratic Party to a historic defeat”
A bit like Nick Clegg in the UK!
new thread
I don’t think Labour has as much credit as it would like to think with the working class now; and after the BNP’s minor increase in popularity, I’m sure they’ve took some notice and realised there’s too much stretching to do to get back some of those votes. How affecting the credit crunch will be, will be up ahead. But the Toffs thing looks too thin to me. Listen to and look at Tony Blair! Hear Patricia Hewitt! (I know she’s gone, but who can forget that voice!).
The high-smart in Labour can pass for well spoken loads-a-money types in the Tory party.
Labour’s best changing leader with plenty of time to gather and harry its troops just to make the gap smaller between the victory and the defeat, saving a bit of face for the next general election and for its time in opposition.
212 Will L,
Like you I am the typical person Labour should be targeting, however I was given the opportunity to go to a major Scottish Public School thanks to the Assisted Places Scheme.
I was a bit of a misfit in that public school, I was different from my peers because my parents were poor and I was seen as a working class English fenian! The bullying was rife, so I toughened up. I learnt more about people and the social class system we live in through that experience, never mind the rugby you play the or education you receive - they are not that important, but your character is. The only way to survive in the public school system is to prove to everyone that you deserve to be there. The toffs actually like intelligent working class people, just as long as we cultivate the right attitude. If they don’t like you they ignore but at least they do not resort to current hate you receive from Labour.
I have suffered discrimination from Labour types because I was public school educated - and at university some lefty tutors hated me for it. I am sure the grading wasn’t very objective but I did well enough to study for a Masters elsewhere. I suffered similar discrimination in the work place but the public school experience taught me to rise above it. The biggest bullies in the world are freemasons and lefties.
I continue to believe that England should become a more meritocratic society but there are too many barriers. Firstly the Queen and the Royal Family need to step aside. Second. Disband the Church of England and it return to Rome where it really belongs - no more splits, no more gay priests, etc. England really should become a Catholic country again. Third. Abolish freemasonry and other secret societies.Finally. Destroy Labour by giving Scotland the independence it wants.
Unfortunately these will not happen soon, so the lefties and toffs will continue to fight each other while everyone else suffers.
For the last threes I have been running my own company, employing dozens of staff. People management and customer service are the key but you need resilience and drive. The ability to change and re-engineer operations help you through the bad times like now.