Another news cycle and the row goes on?
November 10th, 2009
What does this say about Brown’s survival chances?
The big overnight political betting story is the news that David Miliband won’t be going for the EU High Representative job - and all the speculation that this opens up not only about that appointment but the whole Labour leadership.
Congratulations to Peter the Punter, Morus and others for picking up developments ahead of MSM and to Morus (Greg Callus), in particular, for his tip at 9.20pm on who might end up getting the job instead. Those who acted fast on Baroness Ashton could have got 50/1 - she’s now at 5/1.
The big question now is why Miliband has thrown away this chance and what it says about his Labour leadership aspirations. Surely there can be no doubt that this is what he’s going for - the only issue is whether it’ll be before the election or after.
Which brings us to the news that’s splashed again on the Sun front pages as well as on several pages inside. There’s even a link from the paper’s website to a recording that was made of the phone conversation between Mr. Brown and the Jamie’s mother.
Listening to it you cannot help but wonder whether we are witnessing the final days of Gordon’s premiership. He’s desperately trying to do the “right thing” but he seems to trip up at every step. Why does he contest what’s clear to the world that he got the spelling wrong?
It’s that characteristic, the refusal to accept what’s blindingly obvious, that more than anything else is his greatest political weakness.
We’ve speculated for so long on the Brown departure but there will come a time, surely, when he or those close to him realise that the best option is retirement?
Maybe it’s this prospect that’s caused Miliband (D) to stay in the UK?
Mike Smithson
MessageSpace Advertising
If we were winning in Afghanistan, if we had been given a more convincing explanation why our brave young men in uniform are dying in a hostile far-off land, if Brown hadn’t sent them into battle under-funded and ill-equipped, if he had ever exuded any credible empathy for the military and their families, he might just have got away with forgetting to incline his head in the appropriate manner.
At the Cenotaph, Brown looked like a man who wished he was somewhere - anywhere - else.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1226483/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-Only-Gordon-Brown-turn-tribute-gross-insult.html#ixzz0WQYVpCQr
will listen to it now. he should have clearly said he made a mistake, but that is not in the man’s DNA.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/papercolumnists/billleckie/2721885/Bill-Leckie-column.html
I’VE never had a letter handwritten by someone as important as the PM.
But if one day it plops onto the mat, you’d like to think you’d open the envelope to find it created with a fountain pen that costs more than a small car.
You’d also think that every word would have spelled perfectly, every sentence expertly created. For this is, after all, a brilliant man.
Who, if he should make a mistake in the course of writing something the recipient will remember forever, would surely screw up the spoiled notepaper and start afresh.
Sadly, all those illusions have been shattered. Because it transpires that our Prime Minister sends out messages of condolence where even the word condolences is misspelled…
Umm… are North Korea and South Korea at war?
SEOUL, Nov 10 (Reuters) - The two Koreas have had a naval skirmish in Yellow Sea waters off their west coast but there were no casualties, the South’s Yonhap news agency reported.
The incident comes just ahead of a visit to Asia by U.S. President Barack Obama, with Pyongyang seeking direct talks with his administration and increasing regional tension by saying in recent days it had produced more arms-grade plutonium.
“A North Korean patrol ship crossed the Northern Limit Line and did not cease when we fired warning shots,” Yonhap cited a South Korean defence source as saying.
Military officials could not immediately confirm the reports.
The two Koreas have fought two deadly naval battles in the past decade in the Yellow Sea waters near the contested sea border called the Northern Limit Line.
The South Korean won KRW= retreated on the news, but there was no immediate impact on stocks or bonds.
It seems it’s not only the MPs who are corrupt and a menace to society in Redditch
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Garage-Mechanics-Joyride-Car-In-For-Service-Vauxhall-Monaro-Driven-At-125mph-Roadhawk-Video-Shows/Article/200911215446691?f=rss
Jeesus, listening to the phone call. Brown really is terrible, shouting at the mother, etc.
Who the hell let him off his leash. WTF are his advisers doing? Or, has he gone totally gaga?
Stating the obvious, I am not one of Brown’s biggest fans, but am I alone in thinking these attacks on him over what was actually intended as an act of kindness are way over the top?
Yes, he was careless with his spelling, but hell, the Prime Minister of the country had taken the time and trouble to hand write a letter to the grieving mother of one of our brave soldiers.
He could very easily have arranged for the letter to have been perfectly typed by a secretary, possibly from a pre-prepared stock and then simply signed it, barely noticing the content, as it flashed across his desk.
I for one applaud the fact that he attempted to convey his personal tribute and has unfortunately been villified for doing so.
For God’s sake let’s accept that like everyone else he’s a mere mortal who makes mistakes and move on to more important issues.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6910300.ece
They are done late at night and without fanfare, a solemn token of prime ministerial respect for the families of those who have fallen serving their country. Ever since Margaret Thatcher wrote handwritten notes to the relatives of the 255 Falklands dead, her successors have followed suit and committed a few thoughts to paper each time a death in service is announced.
The process is regarded as private, the letters are not intended for publication and the subject rarely spoken about in public by officials. Surprisingly, the military high command are cautious about the practice — worried about which families should receive a letter from a senior politician…
agree peter.
clearly he could not say sorry or accept there is not enough equipment, and that perhaps more could have been done.
that would admit culpability and liability which he is not prepared to do, on this or many other key aspects.
his heart is mostly in the right place, nobody feels he is an inherently “bad” man, perhaps A LITTLE NAIVE, but he is not cut out for the role of PM.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6532923/Sketch-Gordon-Browns-decomissioning-moves-a-step-closer.html
The announcement was handled by Ed Miliband, one of the new generation of politicians with which Labour is hoping to replace Mr Brown just as soon as they can persuade their unfortunate leader that he has become obsolete.
Mr Brown is said by his disappointed colleagues to be generating no electricity at all, to have shown an almost total lack of renewable energy and to be presiding over a process of catastrophic climate change which will lead to hundreds of them losing their seats…
What are Baroness Ashton’s qualifications for the job?
Is this an indication that the job is totally meaningless after all?
Just listened to the abridged recording.
It is almost as though Peter Mandleson has set him up.
His attitude waas incredible.Surely he must have had an inkling,or at least those around him might have had,that this would be recorded.
His credibility is now shot to bits.
There is a possibility that he could be gone in days.
13-Any normal politician, yes. But this is Brown. One thing I’d say for him is his utter focus on hanging on, come what may. If half his cabinet resigned, he’d replace them with other placemen. Only a no-confidence motion and early elections would then force him out. He’d then have to be dragged kicking and screaming out of No 10, needless to say there will be no concession speech, or anything like that to Cameron. All will be done in utter ill grace.
As for Mandy, he got his Lisbon through, he can now concentrate on a Euro-sinecure. Millipede - he obviously got told he’d have no chance hence his sudden conversion to UK politics.
I think Gordon’s become something of a Zombie.
He just won’t die.
SEND FOR KOBASHI SAN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP5DvB0DMM8
Admit it, you’d love to see him beat the stuffing out of Gordon. Afterall, Japanese men in tights hit for real
Brown should be vilified not for writing the letters, it’s a really good thing for him to do, but for the execution of them:
1) not having someone else check them, for goodness sake if the man doesn’t have a personal secretary he should have
2) getting involved in an argumentative phone call. Did he really not think that the sun would be there waiting to hear him trip up? It’s not PMQ’s for goodness sake.
Knowing the way the labour machine the next thing they’ll be doing is smearing the widow saying she’s a member of the tory party (or the bnp), they have learnt nothing.
To be honest this is a small thing to get right, having decided to write the letters in the first place he should have thought about the consequences. If he sort this out he doesn’t deserve to be PM, not because of his compassion but because of his incompetent execution.
This situation shows clearly Brown’s weaknesses
1) good ideas (sometimes) poorly executed
2) Lack of delegation skills
3) Lack of political good sense
This could easily do for Brown - with the wolves howling around. With the dark lord urging him on to his doom….
but the labour media in scotland will still not touch it, the labour press releases come out every day without fail, copied verbatim into the RECORD and EVENING TIMES, all anti snp rabid attack stuff so it will have no knock on damage in glasgow north east (benefits division)
60% of households have no-one working in them. so no wonder labour thinks it has a captive audience!
if the snp had offered a free can of beer and a packet of fags for every postal vote they signed up they could have won though…..!
OT- What the hell caused this drop? http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/fds/hi/business/market_data/currency/11/12/intraday.stm
Around Oct24th I conducted a small survey on the likelihood of Brown staying or going.
The average of all the replies thought there was a 70% chance of GB staying but more than half of the 49 respondents thought there was an 80% or more chance of this.
The other notable feature was that those who were most bullish about the ‘early bath’ option included Henry G.Manson a Labour insider,the ever shrewd Peter from Putney and no less than OGH…oh and Roger !
Since then and right up to yesterday the Brown/Cameron option has done nothing but shorten and Cameron has similarly shortened to be Next PM.
I have said repeatedly that this is surprising because it is far more stress-free to Back ‘Cameron Only’ in the Party Leaders or a Labour likely for Next PM.
If you think GB is a goner you can bet that for money on BF Party Leaders at 1.44.
….in other words you can LAY Cameron/Brown to WIN £100 but only LOSE £44.
… & my own post was riddled with missed out words, how I wish for the edit facility…
Peter from Putney @ 8
am I alone in thinking these attacks on him over what was actually intended as an act of kindness are way over the top?
Even as one who hates Brown with a passion, I think you have a point. However, the gloves are off as far as the Prime Minister is concerned and nothing will change that.
From a general political point of view, it once again shows his complete lack of competence. Even good intentions turn into fiascos.
8. The angle the Sun is taking is ridiculous–concentrating on his spelling to such an extent. Presumably he could have told the woman to eff off, as long as he got the f, the u, the c, and the k neatly written and in the right order. Then it would have been all right.
The real problem here are Brown’s colleagues, who are perfectly happy to let the man humiliate himself and destroy his party as long as they get that last six months’ salary. Stay forever classy, cowards.
I do have to wonder–if this incident pushes Brown over the edge, isn’t the Sun actually helping Labour? So much for that blue smoke.
diane,
i agree the last thing the tories want is a change in leader; i expect The Sun to tone things down to avoid bananaboy being rushed in at short notice now that brown’s eyesight matches his thinking, blinkered.
1 - from the link
“Little wonder we are programmed to think the worst of Brown. His cowardice, deceit, duplicity and betrayal, coupled with his bankrupting of the economy and scandalous refusal to hold a promised referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, have rightly stripped him of any entitlement he may once have had to the benefit of the doubt.”
As I said yesterday, can this really go on til May?
Self preservation must come into play at some stage (for Labour) mustn’t it?
I think one has to separate out two issues here. The first is the letter - whatever the issues surrounding the pen/handwriting etc it’s really churlish of the Sun to run this campaign. I’ve no doubt Brown thought he was doing the right thing, even if it was poorly executed (and I think Brown is the worst PM of the 20th and 21st centuries.)
The second issue though it the handling of the matter by Brown and No10, and what it reveals about his complete lack of empathy and dogged refusal to see that he may have done something wrong. He call with the lady is a case in point; asked to apologise, he says he’s sorry she feels he needs to. That’s rude and patronising.
Off topic, the response of Labour to the Tory benefit plans is inconsistent with the party’s internal narrative. The Tories say they’ll allow people with new jobs to keep more of their benefits for longer, and it’s apparently a return to Thatcherism. Last I checked, Labour’s view of Thatcherism was that it reduced benefits. Shows to me how much they are floundering.
“Self preservation must come into play at some stage (for Labour) mustn’t it?”
Given how many of them are stepping down, I doubt it. Also, the expenses row has demoralised them. Stolid resignation seems to be the predominant state of mind in the PLP.
3 - oh dear - from the link - “So it looks like all Gordon Brown’s going to be getting from Santa is writer’s cramp.
With the ‘m’ scored out.”
Ok i’m at 14000 feet, I can see lots of yaks, and i’m about to have a heart attack from the altitude.
One of the yaks is glaring at me. This is what it must feel like to be andrew marr, when he gets home ‘late’.
Burnham now on GMTV - the show is becoming a cosy Labour outlet these days, pathetic!
The Conservatives have nothing to fear from someone like Miliband as PM for such a short time. When Cameron’s main electoral issue like all opposition leaders is “experience”, this negative would be wiped out at a stroke.
I se Labours defence is running along the lines that the Sun is a Tory paper.
I do have some sympathy for the view that a fuss over spelling errors is overdone.
But… To me (and my colleagues at work) the real crime in that letter is getting the name of the dead sodier wrong and NOT binning the letter and doing it again. It just looks awful and dare I say it dissrespectful
If I even feel a twinge of sympathy (for Gordon) however I hear Derek “just brilliant Damian” Drapers words and I realise, what you sow…….
30 brilliant. You can see why Marr might feel inclined to, er, dilly-dally on the way home…
Following this with my cell in the remote himalayas, so may b getting this wrong. But surely its obvious what brown should do now. He has to ring again and apologise for not apologising before about his apology of a letter of primeministerial apology. Doddle.
34 Floater
I think the Sun’s position is pretty sordid, actually, but then the Sun is a fairly sordid outfit, almost by its nature.
I can understand Gordon Brown’s position on this, and even sympathize a little - but as someone who follow politics closely, it is hard not to think of the larger picture, and hope Gordon Brown screws this up as badly as smear-gate.
Sometimes, justice isn’t administered with a scalpel, but a rusty hacksaw. Gordon Brown has shown appalling judgement and ability on this, but not active malice - though the former is no surprise. Nevertheless, he is culpable for so many other sins - in this context, repeatedly underfunding, underequipping, underdeploying our troops, as well as not making the case for the Afghanistan conflict powerfully and clearly - that he fully deserves another media disembowelling.
The Sun are still on highly highly dodgy territory though.
The BBC is playing the story as a much wider one of under funding and lack of equipment for Afghanistan. Ultimately surely this is what will be most damaging for Brown.
There’s a curious mismatch about the letter - we’ve been told how brilliant Gordon is, fast tracked to University. But the letter looks illiterate, as if he struggles with some kind of learning difficulty. It’s not just insensitive to send out something so poorly presented to a grieving mother (tho’ it is). Surely anyone else would have thought it didn’t look good and would reflect badly on them. It’s Brown’s incapacity to criticise himself that’s at the heart of the blunder and at the heart of its escalation now.
Ever caring Gordon has decided to handwrite a personal letter to the Nation to apologise for his recent letter blunder
Morning all. I think the Sun’s position is unedifying to say the least. However were I a hardworking Labour activist I would regard Downing Streets handling of this as criminally incompetent. If they were doing their job properly there woudl have been no story or had hte story come up it would have been dealt with properly in minutes. To have two news cycles dominated by this sort of story is breathtakingly bad.
Gordon Brown can’t do anything right, he is wrong to be PM http://tinyurl.com/yjlk7gx
“He has to ring again and apologise for not apologising before about his apology of a letter of primeministerial apology. Doddle.”
“Er, h..h..hello, the Prime Minister here.
Gordon Brown.
The PM. Used to be Chancellor.
No, that started in America.
I just want to lay this to rest and say that I’m sorry you felt I didn’t apologise before when….hello? Hello? Oh dear. Sarah, I think I’ve done it again….”
According to Iain Dale the “real reason” Miliband pulled out of the job is simply he wants to spend more time with his family:
David Miliband’s decision to pull out of the running for the EU High Representative’s job is being over-interpreted. It has scant little to do with his so-called desire to lead the Labour Party. But it had everything to do with his two young sons. He already feels guilty every time he leaves home on a Monday morning. The travel involved in the EU job would have meant he could spend even less time with them.
It really is that simple.
Mmmmm - I’m not convinced.
43, so he can’t be the EU’s foreign secretary because of all the travel involved but has no problem being UK foreign secretary?
I share your lack of belief in Milipede’s weasel words.
I didn’t realise you could listen to the phone call and am doing now. Listening to this conversation is the final nail in Gordon Brown’s coffin - there is no way this many should ever be elected. He is appalling.
Barclays: £4.5bn in pre-tax profits for last 9 months
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/Recession-Barclays-Bank-Reports-45bn-In-Profits-For-Last-Nine-Months/Article/200911215448325
45 Alistair
You can listen to the full version (rather than the clip) here
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/video/article307898.ece?channel=Sun+Exclusive&clipID=1347_SUN27343
I have looked at the letter again and Gordon’s handwriting is worse than my doctor’s but IMO he has not misspelt “Janes” and “Jamie”.
It’s spreading
Para’s grieving dad ‘disgusted’ by PM’s letter
http://www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/4729454.I_binned_my_letter_from_the_PM/
Interestingly, he claims that his letter was not hand-written, but typed:
Well the concentration on the spelling is bad I guess but the way he talks to this lady is dreadful and should the PM be writing like an illiterate teenager?
I also think a graphologist would have a field day. That’s very defensive looking handwriting.
Yet again Brown’s inability to say a simple sorry lands him in a mess. I am sympathetic to him over the original issue, there was no malice just carelessness, but why oh why does he phone an angry and grieving mother and rather than say sorry for making a mistake, only apologise for the upset and then tell her she’s wrong.
The approach from Downing Street has been to excuse not apologise, then attack the Sun. Just say sorry.
51, quite.
This is similar to the cringing nature of The Office, only it’s happening in an incredibly sensitive area of real life.
Gordon Brown = Empathy Free Zone
Who would have guessed that Gordon’s people-skills were this poor? How can someone so illiterate in human emotion become such a senior politician? There is something tragically wrong at the very core of the Labour Party if it allows such a person to rise to the top.
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
51 - It has been phenomenally badly handled.
Wait till Gordon comes face to face with someone like this on live TV during the GE campaign. Thats what Labour folk are worrying aboout today.
38 - PollyB “It’s Brown’s incapacity to criticise himself that’s at the heart of the blunder and at the heart of its escalation now”
Absolutely. And on a wider scale, one of the things right at the heart of Labour’s travails. Failing to recognise or acknowledge mistakes made means those policies get carried on far too long and then when they are finally reversed, the arguments put are unconvincing at best.
On topic, from conversations I’ve had at work (unprompted), there’s some sympathy with Brown on the letter, where he’s thought to have tried to have done the right thing. But then it’s tempered with ‘we shouldn’t be there anyway’ and ‘underfunded and underresourced’ - though Blair is still picking up some of the blame as well.
I get the impression The Sun is thinking about aiming for quite a long series of such letters and articles - they may yet have second thoughts there.
56, might depend on what the Sun wants. If it wants to bring down Brown, more of this might do it. But if it wants a Labour electoral wipeout, they should delay it until the election.
57 Morris Dancer
The Sun wants to sell more copies.
“Mr Doherty said: “I felt there was no sincerity to the letter. It had just been typed, signed and punched through the post to us.””
Does show how Brown can’t win here.
I was listening to 5 live last night and they had on a handwriting expert. His point was that Gordon Brown didn’t make any spelling mistakes. He looked at the words and the letters had merged. He said that this was indicative of two things. Firstly Gordon Brown’s bad eyesight and secondly a person under a lot of pressure. He even said that the writing wasn’t rushed but carefully written. I’m sure that you can find the item on the 5 Live drive website. I’m not a fan of Gordon Brown but I think that he has been dealt with very harshly and I hate the baying pack mentality that is going on.
57 - I think you need to run through the Labour reaction to this which is to defend Brown from the “monstrous behaviour” of the Sun. So counter-intuitively this is I suspect designed to damage Brown in a way that means Labour can’t get rid of him without looking terrible.
I’m now feeling sorry for Gordon, but this is tempered by the knowledge that the whole thing is of his own making. He surrounds himself with sycophants, refuses to accept his own falliability and fails to understand basic human emotions.
When a woman, who is grieving and angry, expects an apology. Then you give it. Privately if necessary. Send a car round, get her to your office and spend 30 minutes privately grovelling. End of.
I’m reminded of the French Presidential debates. Royal was angry, provocative and a little unhinged. Sarkozy just took it. He had to.
FPT
oldnat - “… there aren’t any(?) Scots Labour posters on here. They are desperate for Brown to stay on as leader. Labour would benefit in England, but suffer up here if someone like Milliband became leader.”
PtP - “Mike Smithson does not bar Scottish Labour supporters from posting on his Site. Are you telling me that from amongst the thousands that post here, we have no Labour supporters from North of the Border?”
oldnat - “I simply note that I can’t identify any Scots Lab supporters. Perhaps none of them bet?”
PtP - “So where are the left-leaning Scottish posters on PB? Scots are not, in my experience, exceptionally reticent. You telling me we have an atypical sample on this Site?”
Yes, we do “have an atypical sample” Peter!
It is an amazing fact (when one considers how the Scottish Labour Party utterly dominated Scottish politics over the last half century), but AFAIAA no Scottish Labour member/supporter has ever contributed to PB.
In fact, it is one of the greatest mysteries in the history of PB, and in the history of political blogging in the UK in general: the mysterious absence of Scottish Labour voices.
The SLP claim to have 18,000 members. I say that that is utter pants. If they have so many members, then where on earth are they? Surely one or two have discovered the internet?!?
(Note: I seem to recall that either Tom Harris or Kezia Dugdale once made a comment at PB Channel 2.)
The apology problem, is that due to being too Calvinist ?
Presbyterians are generally so convinced they’re right they can’t admit mistakes. Try getting Peter Robinson to apologise , same problem.
Several threads late but a quick comment on Brown not bowing at the Cenotaph.
To me, that was highly revealing. I don’t doubt for a moment that he would have done had he remembered, as he did at previous ceremonies, and can only conclude that he is feeling under desperate pressure, to such an extent that it intrudes even at such solomn moments.
Brown almost certainly doesn’t like ceremony and as gone out of his way in the past to avoid it. Ceremony is to an extent acting and Brown quite simply doesn’t act. However, campaigning is also to a similar extent acting - playing yourself but in a very limited and specific role. Once again, when he’s not in control of the agenda, Brown will feel and look uncomfortable and come across poorly. If I was advising any of the opposition parties, I’d be looking for as many ways as possible to get Brown into contact with ordinary members of the public.
Oh - and the debates are off. Even if he thinks that he’d win them (and he probably thinks he would win a ‘fair’ debate), he won’t trust the Murdoch media. The only question is how adroitly he can get out of the commitment.
This story is quite ridiculous (though I take ChristinaD’s point from yesterday that there may be a male/female divide on it). I agree with Peter from Putney at 8 in every detail.
That said, the media handling by the Government is abysmal. Yesterday really shook my faith in the assumption that Gordon Brown will survive to the election.
55. Marcus - “Wait till Gordon comes face to face with someone like this on live TV during the GE campaign. Thats what Labour folk are worrying aboout today.”
Beware the coming of The Brown Epiphany.
I don’t see how you can stand at any war memorial for more than a few seconds and not bow your head.
Imagine how powerful that feeling should be when you are personally responsible for sending thousands of young men and women into harm’s way.
He’s a very very odd man.
B0ll0x!
I’ve just put £50 on Labour to win Glasgae North-East. Sorry Stuart, but it’s easy money!
Apparently it’s the Prime Minister’s monthly press conference today - though I can’t find the time on the No 10 website.
64 - I don’t think the debates were ever seriously on. Brown knows he cannot possibly do them and yet doesn’t want to look bad refusing. Tragic.
69 - I wonder how many Downing Street staffers have called in sick or taken the afternoon off?
8. PfP and 65. antifrank
The real killer detail about the letter is that he realised that he had mis-spelt the name of the deceased, but he did not have the gumption to realise that this meant he must throw that bit of paper in the waste-paper basket and start the letter afresh.
It is that lack of insight in Brown’s behaviour which gives us an insight into the workings of his mind. It is not a pleasant sight. The man is selfish beyond description.
Fluffy
I did the same yesterday. Money talks.
Now is a difficult time for Gordon to go as the opening of parliament and the Queen’s speech is only a week or so away.
If the vote on the Queen’s speech is defeated, this would mean a December election?
74 - The Queen’s Speech will pass.
I can’t bring myself to listen to the recording, just reading the transcript is bad enough.
On some level I feel sorry for the PM, (though he should have started the letter again when he knew he’d spelt the name wrong) but then I remember McBride, Jo Moore, the Paddington rail crash survivors, Rose Addis…
55 - You are right Marcus, and Brown is totally hapless.
Blair in the last election was face with an MMR hoaxer screaming at him and I seem to remember him not punching her.
I don’t think we could gurantee the same with Gordon, although he’d probably miss.
On the other hand on last nights poll the removal of Brown would probably lead to a 35-35 draw whoever took over.
This is increasingly reminding me of Diana Gould confronting Thatcher over the sinking of the Belgrano. One thing is for sure Mrs Janes is no shrinking violet. She’s a forceful woman who wants to make a point. Anyone who thinks she’s being manipulated by the Sun just can’t confront her genuine anger over the handling of Afghanistan.
77. tim - “… on last nights poll the removal of Brown would probably lead to a 35-35 draw whoever took over.”
Are you listening NPMP?
74
If the vote on the Queen’s speech is defeated, this would mean a December election?
The government has a majority of over 60, how could it be defeated?
The Sun story may not reflect too well on GB, however I’m not too sure recording the conversation and then publishing it reflects to well on the Sun. Still for a newspaper that once, ‘faked’ an interview with a dead VC’s widow, its small fry.
Milliband not taking the Eurojob, could be significant,we will wait and see.
Interesting poll, my Tories 38, Labour 28 Libdems 20, (22 if they have a good campaign) for the GE looking good.
74. Firstly, as James rightly says, the QS will pass. I’d be astonished if a single Labour MP so much as abstains on it. It’s just not the done thing (and besides, there’ll be no points of principle to stand on).
On the theory, not necessarily. A government is expected to resign if defeated on a QS - it’s generally considered equivalant of a formal vote of confidence as it implies the House has no confidence in the government’s programme - but that doesn’t necessarily mean a GE if another government could be formed from the same House. In this case, that would have to be a Labour government.
Even if an election were to be held, there are no rules laid down and the best rule of thumb is ‘what’s acceptable’. A dissolution following a defeat in latish November implies a GE date very close to Christmas. Few people would want that (including businesses), and the likeliest outcome would be a dissolution early in January. But that’s all theoretical - there’ll be no defeat.
On a related topic, there’s barely time for a Labour leadership election before Christmas either. An election could be shoehorned into about three or four weeks but it’s putting a huge amount of pressure on unions and others and six weeks is a more usual timescale. Six weeks from today is 21 December.
77 - tim but the idea that removing Brown will make any difference is based on a fallacy. That is that Labour’s policies are all popular and it is only implementational and presentational incompetence that is holding them back. It isn’t and getting rid of him is not a panacaea.
I think the Sun might have made a bit of an error with the timing of their “Labour’s Lost It” shenanigans during the conference.
Imagine how much worse this would all be if they were still (if only in name) a Labour rag right now.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2002/jan/27/conservatives.health
Rose Addis…
The battle was only beginning. Malone-Lee told BBC’s Newsnight that Addis had refused to be treated by ‘that kind of nurse’. Was he implying racial overtones? ‘I imagine that people could deduce that,’ he said. Labour aides angrily deny spreading race allegations to discredit Addis…
Either way the rumours backfired: the Gold family are Jewish, it emerged Addis had a black home help and the impression of spin-doctoring against a sick woman was a blunder. ‘We are talking about a 94-year-old woman with a head injury, not Adolf Hitler,’ Fox told Duncan Smith privately the next morning.
78 - Its interesting to read that Diana Gould exchange again.
Thatcher: Mrs - I’m sorry, I forgot your name.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Diana_Gould
81
You’d be amazed what can be done when you, ‘have’ to do it.
Columnist Bill Leckie in today’s Scottish Sun:
‘Deer Santa, this year can you bring me a compuper’
OT it apears the UK has got so bad under labour, even Ben Elton’s emigrating !
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1226529/After-25-years-moaning-Britain-comedian-Ben-Elton-Australia.html
he’ll be voting for Thatcher next.
Gordon’s problem is, after so many years of prevarication, refusal to acknowledge fault and not answering questions, that when he tries to get something right and makes a mess of it because of his lack of personal honesty (he sees an acknowledgement of an error as a weakness that should not be revealed), then that simple effort to make good is drowned in the avalanche of retribution for all his past and unacknowledged mistakes.
I am afraid it is nigh too late for him to retrieve the situation. It will be interesting to see if he supports Alan Johnson’s confession about the mistakes of Labour’s past multicultural and immigration policy.
Some month’s ago, I had to write a letter of condolence to late colleague’s widow who I scarcely knew. It took me five attempts to get it near right. However, subsequently she told me that what was most helpful was my support in the months after the funeral, in helping her to rebuild her life. I just wonder what support the MOD gives to soldiers’ widows and families and for how long.
85 - Therein is the difference, she apologies.
The Falklands was also a war started by an invasion by a foreign power, not a protracted and seemingly pointless occupation of an Asian wasteland.
GB had 3 things to do on Sunday. Place the wreath smoothly on the cenotaph, step back safely, and bow gravely. He found the wreath quite difficult and it wobbled slightly after he let it go. When he stepped back it was rather awkward and he became flustered and, getting his order wrong, did a slight bow on the steps. That’s why he didn’t bow at the end. He is not very ept.
65 antifrank
I don’t know whether the male/female divide thing is true.
PB doesn’t have many (if any) left-leaning women regularly contributing.
But if you go to female forums with a Guardianista bias, like Mumsnet, you find almost unanimous sympathy for Gordon Brown.
Similarly, the comments by people with female names on right-leaning newspaper websites seem broadly sympathetic to Brown.
This isn’t scientific but take a look at the Daily Mail comments
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226278/Mother-dead-soldier-confronts-Brown-letter-errors-equipment-shortages-astonishing-13-minute-phone-call.html
Listening to the phone call, Brown is on the same auto pilot as in PMQ’s. Not taking any notice of the woman’s points but giving the same pre prepared lines.
I felt a bit sorry for him yesterday but not after listening to this.
We have rapidly descended the ladder from Tony Blair to David Milliband to Baroness Ashton.
Where will we end up?
Next thing, Dennis McGabble will be being touted as the UK High Representative.
48 PollyB “As for David Miliband, I don’t get that either. Why doesn’t he want the Europe job?”
Catch 22. If it looks like he’s actively after the EUSSR job then he looks too much like a rat leaving a sinking ship which, if he doesn’t get the EUSSR job, would then affect his chance of the leadership. So from his point of view he needed all this to be going on behind the scenes so both options were kept open.
I spy a shadowy figure.
Could The Sun find itself in trouble for its recording of the PM’s call without, one assumes, obtaining his consent to it? Presumably the call on Sunday night only came about because The Sun notified him on Sunday afternoon that it was running with the story, and the call was therefore his botched attempt at a damage limitation exercise, and the paper therefore arranged for a recording.
Listening to the 4 minute extract, whilst it is one big car crash for the PM, you do feel a sneaking bit of sympathy for the guy - we sll know he is socially inept with a lack of people skills, and it’s that which comes through to me, rather than anything else. I think this sort of thing could actually harden the Labour core vote, particularly when it’s coming from The Sun/Murdoch and part of a clear strategy to get Brown out. So I’m not sure whether this is really doing the Tory cause any good frankly - the paper might be well advised to draw a line under the affair after today.
95 (cont) Oops, should have been FPT 48.
Why doesn’t Bananaman want to represent the Banana Republic?
He found out he didn’t have a chance of winning. Thats all.
#88 by Alanbrooke November 10th, 2009 at 8:39 am
What is it they say about rodents and water-effected vessels…?
72-Stuart Dickson
“The real killer detail about the letter is that he realised that he had mis-spelt the name of the deceased, but he did not have the gumption to realise that this meant he must throw that bit of paper in the waste-paper basket and start the letter afresh.”
Well said Stuart! Before my first editing typewriter I used to write/type all my letters on smallish notepaper. If a correction was necessary I only had to copy one of the pages instead of the complete letter. The notion of sending a letter to anyone anywhere with a crossing out was never an option. And I was just a wee nothing.(With a bit of pride.)
Smeaton has dropped to 4th place on SPIN:
W.Bain (Lab) SELL 21.5 - 22.5 BUY
D.Kerr (SNP) SELL 12 - 13 BUY
R.Davidson (Con) SELL 2.5 - 3 BUY
J.Smeaton (Ind) SELL 1.5 - 2 BUY
E.Baxendale (Lib Dem) SELL 0.5 - 1 BUY
M.Hughes (Ind) SELL 0 - 0.5 BUY
… so, does that make Con 11/8 good value in the 3rd Place market?
Ladbrokes - Glasgow North East by-election - 3rd Place?
John Smeaton 11/8
Conservatives 11/8
Liberal Democrats 12/1
Greens 20/1
Tommy Sheridan 25/1
Mikey Hughes 33/1
Any Other Candidate 5/1
88 Finally, there is a really positive New Labour achievement.
They’ve offloaded Ben Elton to Australia.
Actually, that is the second. Tracey Emin is leaving from France because of the 50 per cent tax band.
Bob Sykes @ 94
Could The Sun find itself in trouble for its recording of the PM’s call without, one assumes, obtaining his consent to it?
That would definitely be worth watching. The head of the government that wants to watch our every move, record our every email conversation, gets upset when he is taped without consent.
I would love to be working on election strategy for either the Blues or the Yellows if this were to become an issue.
One law for us, another for them.
98. “He found out he didn’t have a chance of winning.”
Something to do with Latvian SS Officers I understand.
94
Ashton would be perfect for the EU job. A complete non-entity, never been elected in her life, steeped in the political elite. What more could a sceptic ask for.
96 Bob, indeed I think there will be sympathy for Brown, in at least trying to ddo the right thing. The few who listen to the recording will I think lose any sympathy they have but thats a relatively small section of the population.
Its a but like the “bullying” accusation thrown at Cameron which attempts again to get sympathy for the PM. Might help a bit but do voters want a leader they feel sorry for?
Interesting developments in the EU….
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/philipjohnston/6528811/EU-reform-that-sweeps-British-justice-aside.html
103 - I don’t think even this knackered government is that stupid.
94 - The Sun claim they had nothing to do with it and that a neighbour recorded it on their Blackberry.
I wonder if this letter and phone call will give the SNP a boost in Glasgow NE? I’m sure Brown will have gone down in many of the voters esteem due to his apparent illiteracy, lack of real empathy and stomping insensitivity. In my experience the Scottish people have great respect for the military and for education, and Brown’s actions have demonstrated his lack of concern for the former and lack of participation in the latter.
I still sort of think Labour will squeak it but it may be tighter than people imagine.
Morning all.
Oh dear. Labour’s media management skills seems to have got a bit rusty. Sure Campbell, or indeed anyone vaguely media-savvy, would have guessed that the Sun might have arranged to have the call recorded?
However - I don’t agree that this necessarily makes the departure of Brown more likely. Just think of the screaming Sun headlines in the event that he were to resign. It would be the newspaper campaign scalp of the century, and would leave Labour in total disarray. Changing leader a few months before an election is one thing (and dangerous enough), but doing so in response to this kind of attack would look incredibly weak - and it wouldn’t just be Brown personally who took the flak. What would the new leader say in response to the inevitable taunts about previous professions of loyalty to Brown? And of course, all the problems of installing a (relative) novice in these difficult economic times would still apply.
Any good Chief Executive knows that to succeed they have to focus and give 100% of their attention to the matter immediately before them.
Then they have to switch that focus to the next matter and so on. At the same time, they put into the back of their mind the rest of the important matters that have to be dealt with that day. If a sudden priority happens, then they need that same focus to deal with that matter before returning to their programme of the day.
Gordon lacks these attributes and so fails at “fire-fighting” and is even worse at preventing those fires from occurring.
Only very good leaders are able to exercise that quality of self-discipline and orderly mind and they are increasingly hard to find. As an employer, I find that fewer and fewer people are able to multitask in this way and that most get very stressed if asked to do so.
A passing note about the usefulness of pb.com - those who are interested will have noticed I passed on the information about David Miliband ruling out the EU job before the BBC did. However, I think Stuart Dckson is slightly overestimating our role in the history of the galaxy when he says “It is an amazing fact (when one considers how the Scottish Labour Party utterly dominated Scottish politics over the last half century), but AFAIAA no Scottish Labour member/supporter has ever contributed to PB.” We have only 50 or so regular contributors and the fact that we’ve not picked up a Labour supporter from Scotland is neither here now there. It’s the opposite lunacy to the belief that Labour HQ employs a team of people who are ordered to post on all the blogs.
On topic…without bringing my own views into it, I’ve been surprised by how many non-Labour people have said to me in the last few days that they think Brown is being set up unfairly. It hasn’t made them into Brown fans, but a degree of sympathy has crept in. The fact that the phone conversation was recorded IMO adds to that. If someone rang you up, would you spontaneously have the equipment to hand to record it? And I’ve seen the clip of Brown at the Cenotaph and it’s completely respectful - it’s on YouTube if anyone wants to check for themsellves.
111 - Nabavi Libels Sun Shocker!
114 tim - Ah, but I said might.
#107, by James Burdett November 10th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Sounds dodgy, but can’t see it happening. If it did, just think; Silvio Berlusconi on-trial for corruption in-party with a UK citizen…!
If this debacle demonstrates anything, it is that Gordon Brown is incapable of doing ‘human’. . . And we already knew that.
114 – He does no such thing, stop being an idiot Tim.
111 - Gordon Brown won’t step down in direct response to this fiasco. However, the vivid illustration of the complete impossibility of getting Labour’s message across might cause plotters to plot.
113 - I suspect you are right on the sympathy thing, and that the Sun has “done a Dannatt” and undermined its own position.
That does not mean that a PM who people fell sorry for will ever be elected.
113 NPMP Perhaps there is a degree to which people think Brown has been set up, but surely the fact that he can be so easily caught out is the more significant element.
113 Nick P - From the political point of view the question is not so much whether people think Brown is being set up unfairly, as the general impression of him not being in control of events. In the school playground which is politics, you may well feel sorry for the weedy geek who is taunted and bullied by the others - but you don’t make him a prefect.
Yesterday I speculated Brown was having some sort of breakdown after sending out a scribbled, spelling mistake strewn letter to a grieving mother.
Today we have Brown actually getting into a row with the mother after phoning her to apologise. The guy is officially nuts!
The truly telling thing about the phone call (which I have listened to in full) is to imagine that same man, incapable of controlling the situation, locked in a negotiation with Merkel or Sarkozy or Qadaffi. He has no authority. This was a very ordinary woman, albeit fired up by grief, who frankly should have been intimidated by the office of Prime Minister. But not a bit of it. She has no training, no life-long ambition to be where she is. But she has no qualms about taking on this man. And bringing him down.
So how the hell Brown can control, let alone intimidate his Cabinet is beyond me. His standing on the world stage is now shot to ribbons after “Obama in the kitchens” and the G20. How in the name of God can Labour even put this man forward for consideration to govern us for Five More Years?
Gordon cannot say sorry in a way that admits prior fault. It is just not in his DNA. And in New Labour he found the perfect vehicle to match his character flaw. New Labour never “did” sorry. Instead, it did Deny, Lie, Move On. Which is Gordon to a tee. Getting rid of Gordon has to also destroy that underlying premise. Labour has to find out how to “do” sorry. And truth. Removing Gordon has to be concurrent with killing New Labour stone dead.
And so despite his utter unsuitability as PM, it seems that Labour has to suffer the coming electoral loss to be able to come to terms with the grief it is already suffering; the grief of losing the soul of the Labour Party in return for winning elections. And it has to do it under Gordon Brown. Because he represents all that they have become, all that is to be regretted. There can be no other reason for keeping him in post, short of mass madness.
@113: As one who absolutely cannot stand Brown, and most of what has been done for the last decade, I still have to agree with you, in large part: he is clearly being set up.
However, he does seem to be doing an excellent job of walking straight into the trap provided, while hitting himself over the head with a piece of sporting equipment seemingly provided by his advisers.
Another sickening story of Labour’s police state
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/6535694/Pregnant-woman-reported-to-social-services-over-half-decorated-home.html
123. NPMP are you suggesting a slaughtered soliders mother is in some sort of right wing conspiracy to ruin Gordon Brown? That this poor woman is actually the villain of the piece? Because thats what it seems your suggesting and if you are, I suggest you get yourself down to the doctors because clearly loopy Browns madness is catching…
125 - I dont think the Tories plan to abolish the police so it’s probably not a problem specific to Labour.
I have to keep reminding myself through all this ineptness that Labour still has a 60 seat majority. Major and Callaghan were running governments on very small majorities and / or as a minority administration. Just shows how truly awful this lot are.
The GE is basically going to be four weeks of groundhog day - Brown meeting lots of ‘Sharron Storers’ and losing his temper. I don’t think I can bear it
Thats to NickPMP at 113.
126 - GIN, are you trying to put words in Nick’s mouth? For shame.
…and after due reflection, I think that hectoring a grieving widow is not quite as bad as punching a puppy.
But only by a (snub little puppy’s) nose…
For those who can remember the dying days of the Major administration, this is the same scenario being played out, but with an added twelve years worth of cynicism. Ministers will not resign - they refuse ‘to walk’, even though their incompetence, their ‘crookedness’ is manifest, so the press go after them for the smallest trifles. The most obvious example is Jacqui Smith’s ‘prongate’.
Ed Balls is demonstrably not up to his job in education, Ainsworth can be charitably described as mediocre, the boy Miliband simply doesn’t know what he is doing and the list goes on. My point is that in an almost Darwinian fashion, the government gets the press it deserves.
113. NPMP - “We have only 50 or so regular contributors and the fact that we’ve not picked up a Labour supporter from Scotland is neither here now there.”
But Nick, forget about the “50 or so regular contributors” (surely an underestimate?!?), what about all the thousands of other PB contributers: irregular, occasional or lesser-spotted. Not even a Scottish Labourite to be spotted there either.
If a twitcher visited 50 average Nottinghamshire gardens during a month, but did not see one single Chaffinch, Robin or Blackbird, then I think that that would be noteworthy! N’est ce pas?
So, as PB has 5 years under its belt, one begins to wonder where on earth all those 18,000 Scottish Labourites are hiding.
Plenty of SNPers and Scottish Tories. A fair smattering of SLDs. But not one single SLABer. How very, very, very, very odd.
I don’t understand how he is being set up. Gordon Brown wrote the letter with the corrections in it and without getting it checked. He made the “apology” phone call and sounded like an idiot. No one forced him to do these things. The only person who has set him up is himself.
If I received such a letter which showed such a lack of thought then I would want people to know about it. Also, if I knew I was going to be getting a call from the PM then I would ensure that I recorded it.
All these problems are of Brown’s own making. Can anyone really imagine Tony Blair or David Cameron causing themselves such problems?
132 - “Ed Balls is demonstrably not up to his job in education”
Go on then, demonstrate it…
What a piece of shit this woman’s mentors at the Sun are. And what a pity that no one is there to advise her that she has made herself look as shitty as the Sun. How embarrassing for her other son who apparently is still in Afghanistan.
As for Brown-this’ll do him no harm at all. For the first time for a long while he looks human. A man trying to do the right thing albeit clumsily persecuted by a trashy tabloid newspaper which thinks nothing of using a grieving woman in this way.
Theyve got Charlie Whelan on 5 live claiming the Sun/Murdoch are smearing Gordon Brown.. and that smearing in politics is on the rise. Unbelievable.
135, I agree. I for one am pleased he announced babysitting was no longer illegal.
127 Neil - It is an example of Labour’s police-state mentality. They introduced a form which the police have to fill in whenever they investigate an alleged crime, if there are children in the house they visit - even if there is nothing to arouse suspicion.
So if your house is burgled, and the police are called, you may get the impression that they are not interested in the crime but are asking questions about something unrelated. You would be right.
Off-topic:
Just looking at Al-Beebs Football gossip.
I know we all have our doubts and reservations about migration issues, but this has got to be one of the coolest names in soccer: Raheem Sterling. Come on the England!
135
results have been going backwards when compared to other countries for the whole of this governemnt. Not just Balls, all of them have trashed the education system. See PISA studies and weep.
139 - “It is an example of Labour’s police-state mentality.”
It had nothing to do with Labour. Not everything is the government’s fault.
131. Marquee Mark
I fully expect to see a headline as bad as Brown Punches Puppy before Polling Day. Jonah really is that unlucky.
What are the odds that Brown just detests dogs? And pets in general?
136 - That is about the most outrageous thing you have ever posted. The mother looks as she is a woman raw with grief, so she deserves all the latitude that she needs. I don’t think that the Sun are being particularly edifying but to do as you do and attack a grieving mother is beyond despicable. I foolishly thought better of you.
136. “What a piece of shit this woman’s mentors at the Sun are. And what a pity that no one is there to advise her that she has made herself look as shitty as the Sun. How embarrassing for her other son who apparently is still in Afghanistan.
As for Brown-this’ll do him no harm at all. For the first time for a long while he looks human. A man trying to do the right thing albeit clumsily persecuted by a trashy tabloid newspaper which thinks nothing of using a grieving woman in this way.”
Wow.
Just turned on the Radio5 phone in, did I just hear George Pascoe Watson claiming that the Sun may be overplaying their hand?
136.
Get back to the lounge, your medication trolley is on it’s way round.
142
“It had nothing to do with Labour”
er who’s the government, which party does the Home Secretary belog to, who passes and repeals laws ?
Policing wasn’t like this in 1997.
143 - The problem is that at this stage of the electoral cycle there is no news that is good news for a government.
137. Charlie Whelan?
What next Mandelson lecturing us about honesty?
130. No I’m trying to find out what NPMP is getting at when he wrties;
“I’ve been surprised by how many non-Labour people have said to me in the last few days that they think Brown is being set up unfairly. It hasn’t made them into Brown fans, but a degree of sympathy has crept in. The fact that the phone conversation was recorded IMO adds to that. If someone rang you up, would you spontaneously have the equipment to hand to record it?”
Specifically, who is “setting Brown up?” And whats he getting at when he hints that its strange the mother had the equipment to record Browns “apology?” To me it certainly reads between the lines that Nick Palmer is laying the blame for his at the feet of mother?
133 “Plenty of SNPers and Scottish Tories. A fair smattering of SLDs. But not one single SLABer. How very, very, very, very odd.”
Online is disproportionate with people who don’t feel their views reflected on the broadcast media. If the Scottish telly is wall-to-wall pro-Labour (as claimed on here, no idea if true) then it might not be that surprising? Although i’d still expect one or two i suppose.
135: SATS marking issues, New diploma issues, Student loan issues, Student places issues…
149 - “which party does the Home Secretary belog to”
What involvement did the Home Secretary have?!
134 “If a twitcher visited 50 average Nottinghamshire gardens during a month, but did not see one single Chaffinch, Robin or Blackbird, then I think that that would be noteworthy!”
A Twitcher writes: it would indeed be noteworthy!
152 - “To me it certainly reads between the lines that Nick Palmer is laying the blame for his at the feet of mother?”
I would hesitate to say that you are probably alone in that interpretation because there are a lot of nutters on the site but let’s just say he clearly wasnt blaming the mother for this.
“On topic…without bringing my own views into it, I’ve been surprised by how many non-Labour people have said to me in the last few days that they think Brown is being set up unfairly. It hasn’t made them into Brown fans, but a degree of sympathy has crept in. The fact that the phone conversation was recorded IMO adds to that. If someone rang you up, would you spontaneously have the equipment to hand to record it? ”
Dr Nick Palmer, your party is the one which has brought the proposal to record email and mobile phone numbers is it not? If you are uncomfortable about Gordon Brown having a conversation recorded, then how could you back that database?
If anyone still fancies a bit of Lab for Glasgow NE then the best Lab price is now 1/4 over at Paddy Power. (Ladbrokes, Hills and VC are all now at 2/9.)
137. Oh, lefties are showing themselves up today aren’t they?
Roger, you do realise that this is the mother of a solider thats been killed don’t you? A solidier that Brown and this giovernment sent into battle? A grieving woman he feels her sons memory has been insulted and who blames Brown for not providing the helicopters that might have saved him? Just take a step back for a moment and realise how outrageous your post comes across.
The only entity who could possibly be “setting Brown up” is the Labour Party itself…
Or at least, certain of its senior members…
People do feel sorry for Gordon Brown, the same way you feel sorry for some pigeon that’s been half squashed by a lorry, and is dragging its bleeding and sorry carcase along the road.
Someone just kill it, please.
That’s the kind of sympathy that Brown is getting. The spectacle of his appalling premiership is becoming too gruesome. The silly man is so obviously unfit for the job it is actually painful to watch. To continue is cruel.
Someone just end his career, please, and put us all - and him - out of this misery.
157. So who is he blaming?
A reasonable comment from the Sun’s stablemate:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article6910153.ece
I’m quite impressed by the Mail’s reader comments on this. The Mail’s comments section is *always* ferociously anti-Labour. Many of the people commenting say that that’s exactly what they still are. But they’re trying to be fair, and it gives a bit of credence to the view that Brits are on the whole quite keen to be fair even when they’re politically at one end of the spectrum.
155
the Home Secretary’s desk is where the buck stops on policing.
I blame Diana’s driver he put in motion all this “I’m a victim hence I must be an expert”.
I suspect the call was taped after the Sun had the letter and that the Sun did the taping.
Shame really as there are so many other things to hammer Brown with - this one seems a bit crass.
Good Morning Letter Writing Voters For Nick Palmer Worldwide
Meanwhile …. MM @ 123. The difference is very simple. Politcians often find dealing first hand with lucid and intelligent voters very difficult. The voter often cuts through the drivel, asks a direct question and usually has sufficient disdain for the politician not to be fobbed off with a pre-prepared or scripted reply. Even the sainted She Elephant was left sprawling in the doings by Mrs Belgrano !!
“161.The only entity who could possibly be “setting Brown up” is the Labour Party itself…”
That would be my guess.
165 - Right, so if this happened after the election it would be the Tories fault? Or are you going to claim it wouldnt have happened after the election. Because a new era of peace, harmony and 100% more sensible police officers would have been ushered in?
Huh, late up this morning, BBC website has nothing of this story on the front page in the Sun.
167 Thats a very good point. I remember the hospital incident with Tony Blair.
155 Neil - Er, Labour introduced the regulations I referred to. This is 100% a Labour government initiative - part of the massive red tape which Labour have introduced into policing.
#135, by Neil November 10th, 2009 at 9:13 am
Go on then, demonstrate it…
[Src: An Inspector calls
Be careful when playing with the big-boys…! :evil”
Daily Record:
Alistair Darling: Glasgow North East by-election is ‘battle for future of the city’
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics-news/2009/11/10/alistair-darling-glasgow-north-east-by-election-is-battle-for-future-of-the-city-86908-21810499/
What is the Lib Dem’s record worst-ever result in a Westminster by-election? (Official Lib Dem candidates only.)
Could Thursday see a small piece of history-making?
168 It may not be pro-actively setting up Brown. Just giving him enough rope to hang himself should do the job. After all, isn’t Gordon supposedly on a final written warning suspended sentence one-more-tackle-like-that-and-you’re-off-laddie line in the sand before Christmas?
172 - Can you cite the regulation that requires police officers to have expectant mothers who decorate their houses investigated?
167 - I think most politician/member of public spats come down to the difference of vantage point between the member of the public for whom the world can often be black and white and the politician for whom the world is more shades of grey.
The bit that gets me in the phone conversation is Gordo repeatedly denies he made any spelling mistakes. How can you move on, when he refuses to admit that he did that even, when you can see it in black and white. This isn’t a question of an interpretation, it is fact. I can draw only one conclusion, the man is completely insane, he truly believes he didn’t make any mistake over than have messy hand writing.
over -> other.
160
One can fullly understand the poor woman’s grief, but the idea that more of anything could have saved her son’s life is simply not true.
When the West lose in Afghanistan they will lose for the same reason the US lost in Vietnam.
Willard: Charlie didnt get much USO. He was dug in too deep or
moving too fast. His idea of great R&R was cold rice and a little
rat meat. He had only two ways home: death, or victory.
From Apocalypse Now! swop Charlie for Taliban.
169 Neil - Yes, I believe the Tories have plans to scrap this piece of Labour meddling, and replace it with the commonsense approach that the police should only notify social services if there is something obviously seriously worrying. In other words, going back to pre-1997 sanity.
on 176 - I have work to do, but if you Google you will find it. The Conservatives have cited it as a particularly silly example of wasting police time.
I think this story shows that, whatever you think of the way it’s been presented, Labour cannot win an election campaign that’s fronted by Gordon Brown. This is the massive, gaping flaw in Rod Crosby’s swingback theory.
Looks like the Tube will be screwed over Christmas.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23767130-tube-strikes-for-christmas-as-peace-talks-break-down.do
Yes, if it continued to happen.
The issue isn’t does single plod do stupid thing - big organisation it’s going to happen. The issue is what happens next?
The government have not issued any guidance for the police to lay off citizens and let them get on with their lives in peace. If anything the target culture of ” get a conviction - points mean prizes ” has encouraged the opposite. Since 1997 the police have been used to consistently infringe on the lives of ordinary people and have eroded civil liberties. This is the policing culture we now have ( surveillance, more laws,fewer protections ) and this culture starts at the top.
So yes if the Conservatives were the next govt. and do nothing about it I would say it is they’re fault. The bloke at the top of the organisation is there to effect change not just to collect a salary.
182 - How are they going to manage to keep Gordo away from the public for 3-4 weeks? There are only so many schools and Labour safe lands that he can visit.
178: Brown has his golden rules which are never broken. Almost all his mistakes can be taken from that
1) I am always right
2) Tories are always wrong
3) Never admit mistakes
4) Never say ‘you’ are sorry
Just extrapolate those rules, and it accounts for every error he’s made.
167 - The most famous recent case of course is the shrieking whackjob MMR hoaxer who rushed at Tony Blair.
You can get 13/8 on her in Eastleigh
185. Their saving grace will be popular, trusted Cabinet subordinates like ….. and ….. and um…David Milibahahahahahaaha.
187. tim - you are Jim Devine and I claim my £5
182 Yup.
But equally, any other leader fronting up New Labour still has the albatross of his 12 year record around his neck. The damage it has done, will continue to do. Which is why I have no truck with tim’s 35:35 under a new leader. A new salesman in the Trabant showroom is still selling Trabants. It is New Labour that is broken and unsaleable, every bit as much as Brown.
Plus, putting a new leader in so close to the election will be seen as a cynical ploy, taking away the voters chance to give Brown a great big electoral kick in the goolies. Robbed of booting Brown, they will just change their target to the next in line.
175 MM. The Sun is going for Brown in the same way it gunned for Kinnock and defeated England football managers. It’s the lightbulb/turnip syndrome all over again. In such campaigns truth, reasoned and measured debate become fatal casualties and frankly the way the Sun is abusing the grieving mother is venal and disgusting, but sadly quite in character.
David Miliband’s band on SPIN is an unusually narrow 4-4.5. He is now joint favourite (with Alan Johnson) with Ladbrokes at 7/2. Meanwhile, you can still get 11/2 on him at Victor Chandler.
Opinions on Alan Johnson’s prospects are similarly diverse - you get a measly 7/4 on him with Paddy Power, but more than 5/1 with him on SPIN.
Ed Miliband is as tight as 7/2 with Victor Chandler. Ladbrokes price him at 5/1.
This confusion about who is the front runner may be Gordon Brown’s saving grace.
156. I did some Twitching today, Mark! I’m getting quite keen on this birdwatching, er, lark.
Anyway, I saw one of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stork
One of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-tailed_Eagle
And, fabulously, lots of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-necked_Crane
Don’t know if it has been noted, but it seems the runt’ed French one appears to be having problems too.
Sarkozy’s unreliable memories of Berlin 1989
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100016196/sarkozys-unreliable-memories-of-berlin-1989/
I’m wondering if the Tories are actually happy about what the Sun is doing. There’s a real danger this could finish Brown off, surely the best tactic is to keep him there for the election - Brown’s the best weapon they have
175. Yes. Stepping back and letting him be his usual self without the usual protective intervention.
192 - I think he is deliberately ensuring there is no obvious successor.
As Murdoch has now declared war on Labour, lets hope Labour nails news international on the taxes it avoids and maybe pass a law banning foreign media barons owning our TV and newspapers. Although I hate Gordon, Murdoch is even more dangerous as he pulls strings without ever being elected.
195 - This won’t finish Brown off, it is just another lance in the tercio de varas.
198. And who elected James Gordon Brown PhD as Prime Minister?
192 (cont) - If you take the view that it is a better than evens bet that one of David Miliband, Alan Johnson and Ed Miliband will be next Labour leader, there is value out there.
192: You’re right. With Thatchers demise, at least Heseltine was lurking and being there, which allowed plotters their avenue. With Brown, that is much more murky, with no clear path from A to B.
201. Watching Ed Miliband on Newsnight last night I cannot see the bruvvers getting behind another Blair type figure especially him.
Unless the rules of the contest change its AJ vs HH.
189 - We have very different dreams.
The victims as experts syndrome is at its most damaging when it comes to which is the most media friendly cancer victim when lobbying for new expensive drugs.
Appearances on Breakfast TV being more important to some than the efficacy of the drug.
147 tim
I suspect you have hit on something here.
George Pascoe-Watson was an incredibly canny operator, who would have a better feel for how this sort of story would play.
This story might be a new and inexperienced senior political team going too far.
It’s all terribly undignified, petty and mawkish. Woman demented by grief turns on visually-impaired man for writing sloppy letter of condolnce [sic]. Perhaps she would have felt better with a photocopied pro-forma from the under-secretary of state…
George Pascoe-Watson spent much of his time writing pro-Labour pieces. When the Sun decided to back the Conservatives he left shortly after.
He now comes out and supports Labour against the Sun. Bears antics in woods would be more of a shock.
Brown needs to learn the very basics of polite communication, such as is done every day by good companies to their clients and enquirers:
- Always get names right. Always. If it’s anything out of the ordinary, check it 3 times.
- As soon as you realise you’ve made a mistake, or you pick up any hint that the client feels agrieved, apologise straight away.
- Never do fake-apologies e.g. “I’m sorry you felt I had made a mistake.”
- Never imply that the client has done anything wrong.
Perhaps this lack of customer service comes from never having done a proper job and never having fought a competitive election.
I don’t think there will be a backlash against The Sun
1 - There is an on-going narrative about the poor equipment that our armed forces are having to cope with. This fits in with that
2 - No-one doubts that Gordon meant well. The problem is that, for whatever reason, he did not take enough care over the letter. If he had have got the names correct, this would never have happened. He only has himself to blame.
3 - The Sun are well-known for this style of journalism. The New Labour problem with it stems from the fact that they are now the target not the instigators. It might not be pretty - but they wrote the rulebook on this sort of behaviour.
If Gordon comes out in a couple of minutes and issues a formal statement of apology, then tomorrow we will be on to something else.
However if, as is highly likely, he screws up his press conference, he will have to suffer day 3 of this
207- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Pascoe-Watson
“He was in a relationship with Sky News presenter Kay Burley which ended in early 2009.”
Ah yes, Kay “Leave Brown alone you nasty people” Burley
When you go to the recording of the interview you are first subjected to an ad for a Family Guy DVD featuring a joke about horse sperm.
That doesn’t seem very ‘respectful’ to me.
Oh look..the labourite have turned their venom on the mother…how touching.
206 - Perhaps she would have felt better if he had got it right. Attacking someone in the midst of grief is beneath contempt.
207 - As has just pointed out on Radio5, this womans dignity was not important enough to shift the Page 3 tit photo.
The Sun I suspect have done a Dannatt and undermined their own credibility here.
Miliband wanting to spend more time with his family is a load of old cobblers. He just realised he couldn’t get the EU job - because of what he said about the Poles and the Latts.
Poland is a big EU country; Miliband called their president an anti-Semite. Warsaw would have kicked up an enormous fuss if the job had been heading to Nazi-name-calling Banana-boy. And the EU dislikes fuss.
Of course if he’d been offered the EU job Miliband would have leapt at it. The timing of the move couldn’t be better from his perspective. Just as Labour are about to go down to bitter and ravaging defeat, he waltzes off to Brussels. There he gets to be feted and revered, and also very very well paid, while the vanquished brothers at home are fighting like rats.
Five or ten years later he returns in glory and takes the leadership when he might actually have a chance at winning a GE. Perfetto.
But he blew his chance cause of his stupid, overdone, Waffle $$ nonsense. Good.
PM conference starting soon
174. Another Glasgow seat, a very long time ago.
1.2% of the vote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Camlachie_by-election,_1948
215 - I don’t believe Miliband said anything about the Polish President
Brown’s conference about to start
214: tim, if you think going against the sun is a good move for labour at this point in time, well….good luck to them.
210 scarface, Thanks for the link, I did not know he split from “red” Kay Burley.
That article states “He now works for the Portland PR agency founded by Tony Blair’s former spin doctor Tim Allan”
So Blairites found him a job as payback for the years of work supporting Labour.
220 - They don’t need to say anything, the Sun has now overplayed its hand.
As with Dannatt who was a more credible critic before his mistake, the Sunn has weakened itself.
Labour should not mention the Sun at all now.
218: The countries president is from the Law and Justice party.
The horror show for Labour spinners in this story is that:
(a) the mother is nobody’s fool; she is not being manipulated. Her grief is being focussed on the PM with a laser. And worse - she knows her shit.
(b) the letter is in the public domain. No scope for use the usual fudge or distortion. This what the PM wrote. This is how he wrote it.
(c) the tape is in the public domain. In full, unedited. No scope for use the usual fudge or distortion. This what the PM said. This is how he said it.
(d) Accordingly, The Sun is largely just laying this story out and saying “what do we make of this then? Bloody outrage, innit?”
(e) Again, it comes back round to reinforcing the notion that the Govt. has short-changed “our lads” on kit and helicopters and vehicles. Utterly toxic for Labour, this woman’s grief is the inescapable consequence of deliberate funding decisions taken years ago. Which in turn, puts Labour’s other spending of the last 12 years under the microscope. “We haven’t got money to support our troops on the battlefield. Yet we have the most mind-boggling level of debt. So - WHERE HAS ALL THE MONEY GONE?”
Labour keep repeating the same mistake, now attacking The Sun over this. Remember they attacked Staines over Smeargate (Pound and his ridiculous I’m going to the police about this hacking..) and the Telegraph over expenses (and again starting an investigation to get the mole who leaked this).
re 206. If he is that visually impaired he should not be in the job.
136
‘Shut up and do as I say’:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/6496152/Ed-Ballss-insane-education-policies-make-school-gate-cheats-of-us-all.html
‘Din’t know nuffink abaht it mistah’:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/sep/14/edballs-warned-of-sats-fiasco
‘It was ‘im what dunnit; on my life guv’nor!’
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/exams-head-balls-sexed-up-evidence-against-me-1672712.html
‘Nah, look see. I got all brand new stuff now’
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/secondaryeducation/5880086/Exam-chief-warns-barmy-Ed-Balls-over-A-level-replacement.html
‘Me? I’m all warm an’ cuddly, ain’t I?’
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/19/eb-balls-bully-claim
http://www.publicservice.co.uk/news_story.asp?id=10942
‘No, they’re not cuts, they’re just negative investments, totally unlike Tory savage cuts’
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/09/21/school-cuts-fury-115875-21689153/
‘Well, I am a Minister of the Crown’
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1216583/Ed-Balls-spends-3m-office-makeover–including-massage-room-Muslim-prayer-area.html
http://www.furnessacademy.com/2009/09/ed-balls-fit-for-purpose.html
Quite.
I am a bit concerned that labour will finally ditch Brown, and get someone better in. I was really hoping they would get absolutely smashed at the election, because virtually no-one in their right mind (I exclude Roger and his disgusting post at 137) could vote for him now and they would be left with stuffed postal votes and the terminally stupid on about 23% max.
However, this phone call must surely make the rational wing of the Labour party (NPMP?) think again about the status quo - it cannot go onlike this surely?
206 RodCrosby. I find it inappropriate to critisize a mother who rightly is racked with grief, anger and bitterness over the loss of a much loved son.
Brown is clearly at fault. He is a man who outside of his family, close friends and political coterie finds empathy a difficult quality to master. Though clearly not insincere his cold outward demeanour has not served him well.
My harshest critisism is for the Sun newspaper as it dances on the servicemans grave with glee and relish and prostitutes itself as a family friend simply for a cheap shot at the Prime Minister. It’s foul, loathsome and the most disreputable form of journalism. We expect no less of the gutter Murdoch press and it rarely fails to meet that low expectation.
222 – Gone pear shaped rather quickly hasn’t it Tim. No wonder so many at the Brighton Conference had a hissy fit when the Sun deserted Labour.
Never mind Tim, only another six month and it will be over.
226. Very un-PC, Mike…
There are times when, thinking about MacSporran, I start to wonder if Tories will forever look back on this as a golden era. Rarely does a party find itself in the position the Tories are now - where the enemy’s leader is such a vicious, incompetent, odious muppet that every single punch thrown at him connects, including quite a few he’s thrown himself.
Surely, I reason, this is all going to come to an end. He will lose. He will be replaced with someone a lot tougher to deal with. The Tories will have to get their feet off the desk and start working to win the arguments instead of coasting them all.
But then I look at the rest of the PLP. And I think: nah.
My word.
What an awkward segue by Brown from Afghanistan to the NHS.
226 - Err, should Blunkett have stayed at home crocheting baskets?
Jack Ashley worked for Remploy?
Come on Mike.
Brown sounds very down
Jesus f***ing Christ. Just seen the start of Brown’s press conference statement…. he sounds ruined.
BBC run by ‘Kafkaesque committees’ ruining television, says Stephen Poliakoff
The BBC is being run by “Kafkaesque committees” ruining television and forcing it into “crisis of confidence” according to the dramatist Stephen Poliakoff.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/6530822/BBC-run-by-Kafkaesque-committees-ruining-television-says-Stephen-Poliakoff.html
Gordon Brown looking shattered.
I want Brown thrown into a live volcano as much as the next person, but this story is such pish. The Sun got to fill up two pages by meticulously examining spelling and handwriting errors made by a near-blind man who is obviously dyslexic. I’m sure he’s learned his lesson now, though: in future, just get some intern to mailmerge the letters.
226 Mike S. Not very liberal Mike. Was Blunkett similiarly disqualified from cabinet rank for being blind ??
231: Lol say Rod Crosby..
I beleive you hold a few views people might deem ‘un-PC’.
In my experience grieving people are usually at their most humble grateful for all the sympathy offered. This woman by secretly recording a conversation with the Prime Minister in order to give it to the Sun has behaved atrociously. Grief doesn’t forgive this anymore than it excuses any other grotesque behaviour. Nice people are nice people and shits are shits.
Apart from the uber Tories on this site I’m fairly sure that the majority of people from whatever political background will sympathise with Brown and feel that like at Hillsborough the Sun have overplayed their hand.
239 - But according to Gordo himself a) he doesn’t have a problem with his sight and b) he didn’t make any spelling mistakes, it was the women who couldn’t read it properly.
Brown is supposed to have worked as a lecturer, at an obscure Tech College in the West of Scotland. I have always been surprised that no one has appeared to tell the world that Dr James Gordon Brown’s lectures on History and Politics were so wonderful, and changed their lives, or that they witnessed a live demonstration of flying blackboard rubbers in the lecture theatre.
137 Roger - I agree and hope this affair rebounds badly on the Sun.
If ZNL go for attacking the messenger the Sun could segue the story into a 12 year history of ZNL attacking the messenger whenever there’s a scandal e.g the woman who got smashed up in that train crash who they smeared as (forget what ) or that old girl from the hospital scandal they smeared as a Nazi.
Obviously not such a good plan if they used the Sun to do the smearing.
242 - If Gordo had rung up and apologised unreservedly for the mistakes in the letter, yes. But he didn’t.
239. Obviously Brown knows he’s nearly blind and clearly he must have been told in the past that he makes spelling, therefore for something as important as a letter of condolence, he should have got someone else to check it.
230
That was the huge tactical error. The hissy fit over the Sun backing the Conservatives.
Wow - Labour is promising to allow people to go to their doctors to get their health checked
Blimey, I never knew such things were possible.
I didn’t know the NHS was capable of seeing whether people were healthy or ill
218. Exactly, you don’t *believe*… but you’re not sure, are you? Miliband said so many daft and tim-like things during his ludicrous Nazi rants no one can actually remember who he labelled a jew-hating Slav and who he said was a gay-bashing Balt.
He f*cked up, big time. And he seriously annoyed the Poles, and, yes, the Polish president, hence his non promotion. They threatened to veto him. Charles Grant the Federalist reckons that Poland isn’t big enough to veto:
“In theory decisions on both jobs taken will be taken by qualified majority; in practice there will be a lot of effort to reach a consensus and the big countries would be able to veto someone they do not like. So the UK would block Jean-Claude Juncker, the Luxembourg prime minister, if his campaign for the presidency looked like succeeding.
As for the reports that Poland would block David Miliband from becoming High Representative, it is not clear whether Poland really counts as a ’big country’, ie one that can veto. Would Poland really try to block him? That would depend on the balance of power between the president, who is doubtless furious with Miliband’s comments about his Law and Justice Party, and the PM, whose own party is a bitter opponent of Law and Justice.”
But he is wrong, Poland is plenty big enough: it stands for all the Eastern European states.
Miliband blighted his own career for some pointless partisan point-scoring that achieved nothing. He may be bright, but he is crap at politics and politicking.
“I find it inappropriate to critisize a mother who rightly is racked with grief, anger and bitterness over the loss of a much loved son.”
Grief-stricken people often behave in bizarre ways.
He still isn’t apologising….He is just talking about how people feel when they suffer loss, hint hint often react irrationally and don’t see the wider picture.
Look at the following people attacking a mother in grief
tim, Rod Crosby, Roger
What a fine bunch of people you are…
Brown still can’t say sorry
This won’t go away
He just doesn’t get it. The human touch matters - not just running through a prepared spiel of policy positions
253 - I thought that was astonishing.
This is a pretty strong answer by Brown, though obviously pre-prepared.
251 - Don’t be silly Sean.
The man Miliband attacked was in a Neo Nazi party.
He is now bashing on about how he has to explain to relatives why we should be in Afghanistan. Did he not listen to the mother? She said she knew why and agreed, that wasn’t the issue!
242 Roger. Absolute bollocks, people deal with grief in different ways, and it often erupts in the most unlikely of ways at unexpected times.
And to obviously imply that this grieving mother is a shit is offense.
From what I heard of the ‘phone-in on 5Live, all the nasty,horrible people were against Brown and right behind The Sun, and all the decent human beings felt sympathy for the Prime Minister.
OMG, he is lying, he is flat out lying!!!!
“I apologised for any mistakes”…no he f##kin didn’t! He argued that he didn’t make any spelling mistakes!
Brown looks exhusted and ill, waffle….waffle… auto pilot is all he can do, repeat Labour policy. His lack of conviction about Afganistan is most damaging for public support.
I think G P-W is just wishing he wasn’t now in a non-job and was still at his desk. It’s a bit early since he quit for him to be sniping and makes him look a bit bitter.
Also, ask yourself how The Sun got this story before saying the currant bun are using this poor mother.
226 - That’s really not the best comment you’ve ever made. There are many reasons he shouldn’t be in the job. That’s not one of them.
That’s nice Roger. The true voice of Labour. Just because this grieving and perhaps irrationally angry woman, who has JUST LOST HER SON, has criticised your leader, she is therefore “behaving atrociously”.
And just in case we don’t get the message, you add that the same grieving mother is “a shit”.
That’s nice. Roger. Really nice. And then you criticise the Sun for being beastly.
You are a stupid pompous hypocritical c*nt. There. At least that’s true.
257, just off out for a bit, but am I alone in my war on the word ‘pre-prepared’? It’s a Brownism and the prefix is utterly unnecessary.
Prepared is fine!
JJ: I don’t want to sound disrespectful here, but was an insult to my child. There was 25 spelling mistakes, 25!
GB: There wasn’t.
…
GB: I think I think I was trying to say Janes, as your right name. Maybe, maybe my writing looks bad but I was trying to say your right name. And I spelt Jamie right as well I understand.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/2722106/Mum-at-war-Jacqui-Janes-the-full-transcript.html#ixzz0WRzyABLu
254 ‘Look at the following people attacking a mother in grief’
Standard Labour response isn’t it? Deny, Lie & Attack. Do not apologise under any circumstances.
Brown and Co have had this coming for years - sending underfunded, and under resourced soldiers to fight in hostile environments with no apparent care or interest in the consequences was always going to return to bite them. He deserves everything he gets.
A strong start by Brown but now he is floundering badly. His face looks absolutely awful.
~He is banging the lectern now. Doesn’t come across well.
You demonstrate the depth of your sympathy in a condolence letter by the care you put into it.
Come on, Labour MPs. Now is actually a really good time to get rid of Brown. A new guy can come in and run through til May with no pressure to go to the country immediately. Phone-ins will be about “Will you give Labour another chance now they have a new leader?”. That is, there will at least be some hope.
Act now! This week! Do us all a favour!
264 - Hardly sniping, its clear that the Sun has overplayed its hand and weakened its case.
As Roger at 242 nand others have said, most people will see that MacStalin was at least trying to do the right and proper thing here. It seems very mean-minded to take him to task in this way and especially to tape a call, in which he was doing his none-too-impressive best to make amends, in order to embarrass him with it.
Unfortunately MacSporran seems to be completely bereft of any people skills - and indeed of any political skills, now that his ability to smear has been taken away. The way this has blown up is all his own doing.
I don’t see that it does signify his premiership being any nearer its end, though.
As we’ve discussed exhaustively in the past, the options to dump him are either a visit from men in grey suits (which will founder because there’s nobody with unanimous support waiting in the wings to replace him) and a PLP revolt. The latter would fail for the same reason, but also because only those Labour MPs who are in a marginal seat care who leads them in the GE, and there just aren’t enough of them to force the issue.
Totally O/T whilst PM press conference is on,
but I’ve just done my first Springboard UK (aka PBC’s pollster) online poll. Some of the questions were quite innovatively constructed, but no vote intention question.
And on topic, why is Burnham at this Press Conference????
I can’t watch anymore of the lying f##ker, otherwise I might end up breaking a rather expensive monitor.
If he really does think he apologised unreservedly, he is f##kin insane, absolutely f##kin insane. We can all see in black and white what he wrote, and we can see the transcription / hear the audio, and he argued over if he made any spelling mistakes. Now in a press conference, he claims exactly the opposite, even when we can see all the evidence that contradicts that.
242
The example is Blair himself, when he set out on his ‘Masochism Tour, UK 2005′, and when he started to apologise for all sorts of things (most of which he had nothing to do with - but he understood the strengths of a touch of Uriah Heep).
269. “A strong start by Brown but now he is ‘floundering’ badly”
Whoever is in charge of Labour’s campaign strategy will no doubt despair at the thought of having to create a Michelin star Bouillabaisse using a rotting fish.
Gordon will be hidden at the back of the fridge for the whole duration I’d imagine while Mandy prances around the kitchen with a tin of air freshener.
274: What it could show (it’s all the spin) that Brown was paying lip-service to something which he ‘had’ to do, yet couldn’t put the time or the effort into it, and treated it with the same dis-respect as he has the rest of the armed forces.
Oh my God…
He has just said that we are “another occupying army”.
And Brown is now laying out the beginnings of a withdrawal. In effect, protect the urban areas, surrender the rural. Most of Afghanistan is rural.
Basra Mark II.
Just saying he is shy. Aargh.
Back to the betting front: Brown looked shattered at the start of proceedings today.
I don’t see how he can continue to take these vicious,designer attacks without further ill effects.
Betfair has had downtime this morning but my two markets are unmoved.Will report if that changes.
Gordon Brown on the verge of tears… I am feeling genuinely sorry for him at the moment - a rather odd experience.
He didnt answer the question about the equipment. They may be starting to get it now, but it its incontrovertibly true that they were not. If it were true, why are soldiers buying their own equipment?
280
Those words will cost lives.
Great, just great…
286 bono publico
If I remember correctly, it was in the context of how our strategy differed from the Russians or “any other occupying armies” - ambiguous about whether he was referring to us or not. Still very unfortunate - unless I completely misheard.
The buzz phrases from Brown are
“I have got to explain to people”
“I have got to ensure that people understand”
I am finding it hard to concentrate on his droning answers
2 sentences in and I am fighting the desire to sleep
No wonder people have stopped listening
Male blubbing is surely fatal for any PM, unless it is when you are addressing the nation during war, or following some terrible atrocity, etc etc - then you are allowed a slight and manly chin-wobble.
Turning on the faucets just cause you are under pressure is not so good.
Brown’s lies with the audio recording of the phone conversation will destroy him on the tv news and in the papers. He had the chance to kill this story and has failed. What are his PR people doing or did he ignore them again?
284 ‘Gordon Brown on the verge of tears…’
He’s got to go. Now. Someone needs to tell him to walk away, or do it for him, for his sake as much the Country. Regardless of ones political persuasion, we cannot have a PM as utterly out of his depth, and incompetent as this one. The game must be up.
Conservatives only have to pray that Brown lasts 2 more months and then any move to replace him before the GE becomes almost impossible.
If the GE is March then Brown will remain in place IMHO.
285 MTF. Service personnel always buy equipmemt and have done so for centuries and will do so under a Conservative government too.
Having an almighty winge in the armed forces about kit is an art form right from the lowest private to Admirals of the Fleet. I remember it well !!
49 - JJ Doherty was actually born and brought up in Southam. His funeral was unbelievably moving. The whole village came to a standstill and watched in silence as the coffin, wrapped in a Union Jack, came down the main street in a horse-drawn carriage, with the family behind and the bells of the chuch slowly sounding. The dignity of the family was striking - I will never forget the sight of his youngest brother, who is still at the local primary school I think, saluting as JJ’s coffin was lowered into the ground.
Seeing a funeral like that brings the whole thing home to you in a way that nothing else can.
Gordon sounding a little better - I thought he was going to cry at the beginning.
Just had some “Cameron only” on the betfair party leaders market at 3.9s…
278 I will now have the image of Mandy doing the “Shake and vac” dance running around in my head all day….
230/249. Absolutely.
222. “Labour should not mention the Sun at all now.”
Quite.
Labour’s reaction to the Sun’s desertion has been simply hilarious.
It’s been handled with all the maturity of a petulant six-year old boy running off crying; “you’re not my FRIEND any more!!”, when he finds out his former best conker buddy has started hanging out with the tricycle crew from Lavender Gardens; whom together they’d always both hated before.
In fact it reflects Labour all over: highly sensitive, childish, prickly and immature.
But, what do you expect?
Running the country is a job for GROWN-UPS.
287
I’m not sure the nuances will be highlighted by those who will use those words against us.
More car crash stuff.
294
Yes “kit” maybe, but not body armour.
FFS, He just got a free pass to admit he got things wrong and he still can’t do it. ‘I apologised for any offence caused’
Brown is intolerable. Droning and obfuscation. So boring! He just switches me off and infuriates me at the same time. Still can’t answer a straight question about whether he misspelt the soldier’s name twice. “I apologised for any offence I might have caused”, to paraphrase.
I am a little bemused by this story. I say the Remembrance Day Service and - NPMP - I noted that Brown didn’t bow which seemed v. odd to me since it’s the obvious thing to do and everyone else around him was doing so. I also think that he should be given credit for handwriting letters of condolence but if he is going to do that he should know, for heaven’s sake, that you don’t send out such a letter - any letter - with crossings out in it. But the absolute golden rule is that as soon as you realise you’ve made a mistake - even if you didn’t intend to - you apologise unreservedly. It’s his failure to do this which lays him open to criticism. I just find it bizarre that someone who knows what it’s like to lose a child should be so lacking in understanding how this mother will feel.
The reason, though, this story has traction is because it humanises a very real concern that all of us have about soldiers being sent off to fight in a pointless war with insufficient equipment etc and that is down to the government and Brown in particular. Brown is simply incapable of articulating why we are in Afghanistan, assuming he even knows himself, and is now finding his failure to fund the armed forces properly coming back to haunt him. People don’t believe that Labour is behind the army, they know the consequences of that, which is why Wootten Bassett will be full again today when the 5 soldiers killed by the policeman return and they also see their political leaders behaving like cowards (no Minister ever meeting the coffins etc but happy to wrap themselves in the flag when it suits them). That’s why this is so toxic for Labour.
WTF - Brown offered the chance by The Sun to apologise for spelling the soldiers name wrong and kill the story and he does not.
I hadn’t heard about Fitch threatening our credit rating - good question by Bloomberg.
284. Going after the sympathy vote is probably Labour’s only hope. It might save them a few seats, especially if the Sun persist with this OTT and completely insincere campaign. I would advise Gord to squeeze out a few tears the next time the Tories wave their order papers at him and bray like hyenas with Down’s Syndrome.
I could feel some sympathy from Brown if he had the decency to acknowledge his spelling mistakes etc to the grieving mother.
He did not and actually started to argue with her. Bizarre behaviour that demonstrated his lack of empathy.
Today he now is forced (by the media) to acknowledge these spelling mistakes. It is the behaviour of a coward who only concedes the truth when faced with a stronger opponent.
Gordon isn’t the first PM to find himself on the wrongside of grieving parents. I can remember seeing a documentary about the Falklands that showed a couple whose son was killed on HMS Coventry. They had been lifelong Tory members but something Thatcher did, I can’t remember what, it could have been the letter she wrote to them or they could have taken offence at how triumphalist she was at the war’s end, caused them to resign from the party and they didn’t rejoin until she was ousted.
306 - Brown will answer the second part of the question on Tobin tax and ignore the credit rating question.
153. MrJones - “Online is disproportionate with people who don’t feel their views reflected on the broadcast media. If the Scottish telly is wall-to-wall pro-Labour (as claimed on here, no idea if true) then it might not be that surprising? Although i’d still expect one or two i suppose.”
How then does one explain the preponderous of Tory donkeys in the UK political blogosphere?
Nope. Your possited explanation just does not wash I’m afraid. Plenty of other groups well-represented in the MSM are also well-represented at PB (and other big blogs). So why the mysterious absence of Scottish Labour voices.
Heck, I’ve even seen a Scottish Green or two commenting at PB. And they are not two a penny! But never a SLABer. How very, very, very, very, very odd.
One thing this episode shows is that as well as being poor with money (and with numbers in general), poor with people and a poor speaker, Gordon is also poor with the written word.
Why has the Labour Party foisted this halfwit on us?
Actually, I know the answer to that: it was his turn. The Labour Party has many failings but a blindness to queues is not one of them.
294 JackW, too true. Squaddies will always supplement MoD supplied kit with their own . That doesn’t say much about the quality of the official equipment!
The arguments about the heavy stuff. Armour and helicopters.
My own view is that the Sun have overplayed their hand, but it really makes no difference from Gordon Brown’s point of view. For a political leader, it is as bad to be pitied as it is to be despised or hated. Plenty of people felt sorry for John Major, and much good it did him.
310 - Ok I was wrong.
Parris in times describes how Thatcher got this apology malarkey right. Brown should take note.
Basically: <Say sorry, fast, unconditionally, before anyone asks us to. Then shut up.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article6101331.ece
305 I know - I thought he’d finally take it but no.
Why is he still lying? Anyone with two braincells to rub together can see that there are spelling mistakes/name correction. It’s such a tiny thing to concede not some 0% growth concept.
OT - not quite the Cones Hotline, but still…
http://tinyurl.com/ydlrbgr
“Brown: Miliband never a candidate for Euro Foreign Minister” - according to BBC website ticker.
I imagine that lie could be exposed pretty easily…
301 MTF. Yes body armour too. In Gulf War One (Conservative) body armour in the British Army was like rocking horse doings. And going back to the Falklands War our lads were even stripping the Argy dead of their boots because our boots were leaking like a government department.
312 - No wonder he took 10 years to complete his PhD. All those typos and spelling mistakes, then an almighty battle with his supervisors over who was right and who was wrong and what needed to be done to rectify the situation.
The Sun may be hated by Labour. It may have many people uncomfortable about th etactics it has pursued.
But in its first major manoeuvres, it has had the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom standing in front of the World’s press and answering questions about their story. THEIR story. And having that Prime Minsiter on the verge of tears in his discomfort. With the issue guaranteed to go into a third day of the news cycle.
That has got to go down as a spectacular success by The Sun. Not yet up there with the Telegraph on Parliamentary expenses. But this was just the first shot of the war, and they nearly took out the opposing General.
Gordon Brown will be in textbooks for centuries as an example of how NOT to do the job of PM.
314 And in any case, what goes around, comes around. Spite, smearing, and malice are the hallmarks of New Labour, so they’ve no grounds for complaint when they’re on the receiving end.
All in all, it’s rather like the end of the Olivier film ‘Richard III’ where the infantry gang up with halberds…
265. Well said SeanT.
Roger: what you said was disgusting.
Huh?
Brown asked about the “resign” petition, and starts talking about Mrs Janes??
Always remember we are best placed…..
Fitch: UK Potentially Most At Risk Of Losing AAA Rating (Fitch Ratings)
LONDON -(Dow Jones)- The U.K. government is potentially most at risk of losing its AAA rating, but its stable outlook reflects an expectation that it will announce moves to cut its debt more aggressively after an election that must be held by June of next year, Fitch Ratings said Tuesday.
The co-head of Fitch’s sovereign ratings said that among large developed economies with a top credit rating, the U.K. was “potentially most at risk” of a downgrade “given that if faced the largest budget adjustment.”
However, in a statement, David Riley said that the stable rating outlook Fitch assigns to the U.K. “reflected our expectation that the U.K. government will articulate a stronger fiscal consolidation program next year.”
Both the governing Labour Party and the opposition Conservative Party have pledged to cut the government’s debt, but most economists don’t expect radical plans to be announced until after the election.
In May, Standard & Poor’s Corp. assigned the U.K.’s triple-A credit rating a negative outlook, saying it would make a decision on its rating after the new government makes its intentions clear.
The U.K.’s public finances have deteriorated sharply since last autumn with the country experiencing its deepest recession in decades. Output has contracted for six straight quarters and the numbers out of work have climbed steadily since mid-2008, putting an extra toll on the public coffers.
-By Paul Hannon, Dow Jones newswires, +44 20 7842 9491, paul.hannon@dowjones.com
278. Simon …. Hilarious
“Whoever is in charge of Labour’s campaign strategy will no doubt despair at the thought of having to create a Michelin star Bouillabaisse using a rotting fish.
Gordon will be hidden at the back of the fridge for the whole duration I’d imagine while Mandy prances around the kitchen with a tin of air freshener.”
327 - That was level 10 on the bizarro-meter.
As for Gordo nearly crying, maybe he is starting to realise what it is like to be on the receiving end, like the Downing Street switchboard operator he made cry for instance?
314. “For a political leader, it is as bad to be pitied as it is to be despised or hated.”
It’s worse.
320. JackW - in fact, all the troops I’ve spoken to (several friends) have told me they have plenty of “kit” but what they really lack is helicopters and armoured APCs.
Personal kit is not a problem.
On kit.
When I was in the Kuwaiti desert, waiting to be sent to kill people I didn’t really fancy killing for Blair, I had no suitable boots. Back in the UK, politicians were denying there was any kit problem.
The RSM finally pulled strings to get me boots when my feet started going manky. It’s not a new thing. It’s a depressing constant.
When Brown spoke to the mother did he actually have a copy of the letter? As I understand it, the conversaiton took place on Sunday, before the story was broken. At the time he was speaking t her, he may well not have realised where the spelling mistakes were. I have not listened to the phone call though, so maybe that provides the answers.
38/68/317 (et al): perhaps Brown suffers from something akin to dyslexia. The sheer oddness of aspects of the letter seems all of a piece with his apparent inability to correct the risible “Alky Ada” (surely someone must have told him about it by now) and his bizarre repeated use of “eye-ron cast guarantee” at PMQs.
The denial of the errors even in the telephone call seems quite deeply disordered to me. Is anyone besides him seriously suggesting that he did not overwrite an error in the dead man’s name? Not to realise that this was an unpardonable solecism is simply abnormal.
That said, while Brown is grotesquely unfit for his office and richly merits his daily humiliation, the grieving mother’s behaviour has been undignified.
311 “How then does one explain the preponderous of Tory donkeys in the UK political blogosphere?”
Umm..no point in carrying this on.
311. typos - “preponderance”, “posited” etc
Crikey. I make Gogsie Broon look guid!
334 -
JJ: Mr Brown I’ve got the letter in front of me…
GB: I’ve got the letter in front of me and if you feel that my writing was not right then I’m sorry about that.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/2722106/Mum-at-war-Jacqui-Janes-the-full-transcript.html#ixzz0WS75X59I
311. Probably the fact that the Beeb is so leftie that they have to go online to rant their views.
332 Actually, true. I remember talking to my Agent in Hertsmere about this, a few years ago, when we were recalling the 1997 election. I said the public hated us, then. He said, “No, it was worse. They pitied us, like a crippled child.”
329 wayne and 278 Simon, regarding fish, a fish rots from the head down.
338 (cont) Also, if he didn’t have a copy, why was he arguing if he made spelling mistakes or not. He should have apologised unreservedly, rather than debate if or not he did or didn’t. But he claims he had a copy of the letter, so it is even worse, he has it in front of him and still trying to claim he didn’t make any.
340 I doubt the voters will be so charitable next time.
336. MrJones
I’m not saying that all Tories are donkeys. But clearly you have a huge problem within your ranks. The mass braying around here can be quite impressive on occasion.
If, after PM Dave’s record-brief honeymoon, you wonder why the Tories are so disliked, the donkeys will provide a good part of your enlightenment.
Ouch Megrahi again
340. Ah, 1997. I remember it well.
Intersting thought. One piece of spin is that Gordo writes these letter alone, and seals them himself without anybody seeing them, and pops them in the post.
But from the transcript, he must have a copy on file. Therefore, he or somebody else must photocopy them, and I doubt very much he then starts filing them as well. It also means there is an opportunity for other to check them.
Toenails latest blog - trailer for Cameron’s speech on poverty
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2009/11/the_party_of_th.html
Brown admitting putting NHS professionals under pressure.
I’ve just been trying an experiment. My right eye has about 30% vision, supposedly the same as Brown’s (although that’s not what he told Andrew Marr). Covering up my left eye, I find it impossible to read ordinary size type, so I can understand why Brown needs extra-large print for reading. However, although I cannot see clearly what I am writing, I am able to write pretty legibly with an ordinary fine-pointed fibre-tip, so long as there is a good light.
What I cannot understand is why Brown uses this big thick marker pen which would make any writing look childish, when writing to other people. Can he actually read his own words when he writes like this? Is he just too pig-headed to ask anyone else, even his wife, to check letters he has written?
Although the Sun is probably going a bit OTT on this, the whole affair just adds to the idea of him being a bit weird and not quite normal.
342 - If Brown did keep a copy of the letter, are we to assume that he went to the photocopier himself?
I very much doubt it
Therefore, the only conclusion we can draw is that a member of staff did the copying and could, nay should, have made sure that the details were correct.
So if the PM doesn’t care enough to check, surely his staff should.
None of this can show the No10 machine in anything but a poor light
347 Good spot Oracle - I thought it was 0% likely that he addressed them himself - so now he photocopies them and files them too.
I know he has a problem delegating…
I think this post and many of the comments come under the heading of over excited.
There is a mood of contempt for Gordon, but this is not news and if David Milliband was cowardly on two previous occasions what possible reason is there to anticipate him being brave now.
I really think this changes nothing.
221. For his tutors Gordo must have been the student from hell AND it was in the days before spellcheck. They probably ended up saying ‘Yes yes Gordon you’re brilliant’ because they couldn’t read his handwriting and didn’t want any agro.
We’re putting NHS professionals under pressure - what a great soundbite!
338 - No excuses then.
332 Casino. Indeed so. The level of personnel kit and the volume of it is very good. True also that armoured and lift capability is a problem. However these priorities were laid down several years ago not at the behest of politicians but of very senior officers and top MoD wallers, although clearly signed off by the Minister of Defence. Additionally our lift capability is integrated into the largely American (NATO) effort and that is pretty impressive.
The Conservatives will find similiar problems to Labour, and with potential defence cuts to come. Sometimes with the best efforts and with a vastly increased defence budget un Labour, not everything at every time can be done.
Virtually all our casualties are foot patrol IED deaths - terrrain capture and control and little this or the next government can do will change that.
Fascinating watching this story slowly but surely snowballing into a potentially fatal issue for Browns premiership.
Firstly, Labour going to war with The Sun. The Sun have the most readers because the Sun is the very best at articulating what their typical reader thinks. The Sun followed their readers to the Tories, not the other way round. Blaming the paper was the dumbest move ever by any political party, dumber even than the 1983 Labour Manifesto.
Far from ‘backfiring’ as Roger hopes, the Sun have now hard wired their readership to Browns deepest flaw, his utter lack of humility, via a heroic soldier and his grieving mother.
There is no doubt that when Brown leaves 10 Downing street (either before or after the next election) there will be cheering on the streets - and on the nearby newstand will scream the headline ‘It was the Sun wot done it’
348, sounds interesting, although Robinson’s about as neutral as red litmus paper.
354 Especially as back then, mobile phones were the size and weight of a house brick. Wouldn’t won’t those being chucked about…
Brown walking out of the Press Conference with his shoulders hunched and head bowed. Didn’t look good.
5,000 more jobs to go at Lloyds bank
Wow… 5000 job losses at Lloyds announced during the PM’s press conference.
Well, I’ve little to add to what I posted yesterday: on this occasion Brown has been unfortunate rather than malicious, and all this could have been avoided if Brown’s advisers put even a hundredth of the time proof reading the PM’s correspondences as they do trying to link members of the ECR to neo-fascism. That said, it’s highly disappointing to read the PB.com Brown fan club (Mr Nick Palmer MP, Jack W, roger and so on) trying to use this affair to score political points against The Sun. Very unseemly I’m afraid.
361 - He can bow his head - at least we have proof that it is possible.
So he can show his upset at his own woeful performance in a press conference, he just can’t bow his head out of respect for lives given in the service of democracy
LONDON, Nov 10 (Reuters) - Lloyds Banking Group PLC : * Says will cut about 5,000 jobs by end 2010 * Says net reduction will be about 2,600 permanent jobs across UK by end 2010 * Says 2,820 roles to be affected in group operations, 1,190 roles in UK insurance, 950 roles in mortgage operations
353 - If Miliband is concerned about spending time with his kids, he nows he only has to wait another few months and he is going to have much more opportunity than he does now. Going to the EU would end all that. Your kids only grow up once, so why wouldn’t he want to see it happen? I don’t think that on this occasion it is cowardice, it is much more about knowing he has at least five years in front of him when he can be at home much more than he is currently. My guess is that Miliband is actually looking forward to opposition and that this is informing a lot of what he is dong at the moment. He is not bothered about rows with Poles, Latvians, Tories or anyone else because he knows that they are going to make no difference this side of an election. However, he also knows that of something blows up over Europe once the Tories are in power - and the chances are that it will - he will be in a strong position to say I told you so. And that will do him no harm in the longer term.
Incidentally, SeanT is giving Tim a hard time over the harm that Miliband’s comments have caused him in Poland. What he has failed to note, though, is that the Europe minister in the Polish government has said there is no chance of the Tories being able to renegotiate anything to do with Lisbon. His party, of course sits in the same Euro-parliament party as Merkel’s and Sarkozy’s.
361. Pity he didn’t remember to bow his head on Sunday, that laid the foundation for this story.
364 - “on this occasion Brown has been unfortunate rather than malicious,”
If it was just the letter, with the errors, I would totally agree. In fact I said that yesterday, mistakes do happen (although the crossing out dents that too).
However, as soon as this story broke we have had spin and more spin, and no direct apology. Then we get the phone call and it is even worse. Arguing with the lady black is white. Now the press conference and he stands there and spouts “cast-iron” (or as he would say iron-cast) lies!
367. ….. the Europe minister in the Polish government has said there is no chance of the Tories being able to renegotiate anything to do with Lisbon.”
And therein lies the whole problem with the EU. The democratic deficit.
I feel this has 10p tax written all over it - until he apologises [which he won't], this will just keep running in the background.
I’m amazed that anyone is saying this is a non-story or that it’s all been stoked up by the Sun. It’s been carried much more extensively than any other story in weeks.
There were some really twisted people on R5 earlier condemning Mrs Janes for ‘cashing in’ on her son’s death - appalling, Campbell even had to ask the chap from the Sun to confirm she’d got nothing but a tribute to her son.
This whole story is cringe worthy to say the least and the longer its in the head lines the more damaging it is going to be ( not that I mind ) . You can not win this kind of argument so you don’t go there in the first place and if you do you just say sorry and shut up no come backs no ifs no buts you say your sorry. Its like a husband that has been caught cheating on his wife and still thinks he can win the argument by scoring points.
367: In which case, he would surely prefer to have Brown in position until the election, rather than risk Brown going, and having to take the head and run the election.
357. You speak with the wisdom of someone who knows that some problems will face all governments, no matter what the colour.
However, politicans remain accountable for the MoD and the fact that there are still not enough Chinooks after several years of the problem being documented is a scandal.
“Virtually all our casualties are foot patrol IED deaths”
This is what vexes me the most. I don’t understand; surely there must be a counter-strategy to this?
Do we *have* to patrol on the most dangerous roads ON FOOT?
-Why can patrols not be along the fields upon either side?
-Why can we not patrol down the centre of the road, rather than down the sides?
-Is there no way of detecting IEDs with highly-sensitive ground penetrating radar equipment?
-Can hidden cameras not be set up on critical roads to detect, catch and deter bomb-planters?
I’m not an expert on Afghanistan - and I’m sure these questions have already been asked - but why can’t we get a better grip on this?
369 - All sides are spinning. The Sun is spinning for its life. Why else record the telephone conversation? The whole thing is pretty sordid. Brown is behaving as Brown always does and The Sun is using a well-meant gesture to attack him.
Maybe the copy he is referring to is one of the reproductions from a newspaper? I think the conspiracy theorists are getting a bit carried away now.
Amazing testimony by John Major in Select Committee on appointment procedures.
376 - We are led to believe he rang on Sunday night (10pm) before the letter was published.
I wonder at what stage the Tories will be asked to comment on what The Sun is doing and whether they support it.
372 This story will continue into tomorrow’s papers at least. It also has the counterpoint of the return of six more bodies coming back to RAF Lyneham; and then the extraordinary tribute which will again be paid today on the streets of Wootton Bassett, contrasting with Gordon’s own clumsy efforts.
379 - I would be surprised if they hadn’t already and made no comment.
378 - I am sure The Sun could have provided him with a copy. Clearly they informed No 10 that the story was running, otherwise he would not have known to make the call. And they would not have been in a position to record it.
367. “.. the Europe minister in the Polish government has said there is no chance of the Tories being able to renegotiate anything to do with Lisbon.”
Similar things were said to Thatcher in 1979.
Europe is all about resolve. If Camerons makes enough of a nuisance of himself he’ll get what he wants.
If he doesn’t he knows what’s coming from the party.
374 - I do know this; that the Taliban, having stolen some of our metal detactors and various other bits of equiment, work out ways to hide the bombs in manners which our troops cannot detect.
375 - The Sun is not attacking the gesture
No-one is doubting that Brown meant well and that sending hand-written notes is the right and proper thing to do.
However it is in the execution of the note that the problem lies.
We now have evidence to show that No 10 staff were involved in the letter (taking a copy etc)
You get the details right on such things. Anything else is slapdash.
That is what comes over as disrespectful
The intention was right - they just didn’t care enough to get it done properly.
381 - When is Cameron’s next press conference? I would not b surprised if one of the left-leaning papers asked if he is comfortable with what the Sun is doing in the name of getting the Tories elected. I can see Michael White asking something like that, for example.
379: Who’s going to ask them… The tories will just say ‘This is a personal matter for the Prime Minster’. No point in joining in something like this when the sun is doing all the work.
382 - Maybe well be a possibility.
Although, personally I would be shocked if his letters aren’t kept on file. It is completely unprofessional if they aren’t (however personal they may be, they are written as part of an official policy).
The latest excuse for Brown’s phone call calamity from Southam O is that he didn’t have the letter in front of him.
That excuse, like all the others, simply shows how chaotic is the Downing Street operation. It is bigger and more expensive than ever before but being presided over by Brown it seems the most incompetent and clumsy ever.
The other half of the defence, deployed by left supporters here and supported by the sinuous Nick Palmer, is the hint, the half allegation that it was a set up by the grieving mother and the Sun.
Well, that is clever, the Sun getting the PM to write a letter it can then publish.
Nasty rot.
A simple apology would have killed this stone dead. The lack of it demonstrated what a dangerously stubborn man we have as PM.
Link to John Major’s testimony
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=5135
The BBC aren’t showing it, not even on Democracy Live, for some reason.
320. “301 MTF. Yes body armour too. In Gulf War One (Conservative) body armour in the British Army was like rocking horse doings. And going back to the Falklands War our lads were even stripping the Argy dead of their boots because our boots were leaking like a government department.”
I do some what agree, but the Falklands was a rush job, and even the Gulf War was done and dusted quite quickly. The major issue with the Gulf Was was preparing for desert operations given the European focus of our army at the time.
Afghanistan is different, we have had forces in Afghanistan for eight years now. If a war doesn’t provoke change to MoD procurement nothing will, in which case the MoD needs replacing.
374 Casino Royale -
-Why can patrols not be along the fields upon either side?
The fields are stuffed with IED’s.
-Why can we not patrol down the centre of the road, rather than down the sides?
Ditto. It doesn’t make much difference if your on top of, or 10 feet away from a 500lb bomb going off.
-Is there no way of detecting IEDs with highly-sensitive ground penetrating radar equipment?
Patrols do go out with such kit. It’s not 100% guaranteed to find all the explosives.
-Can hidden cameras not be set up on critical roads to detect, catch and deter bomb-planters?
One of my oldest friends is currently serving in Sangin. The locals are brazenly planting bombs in open view of the army compounds. The snipers get them, but they still try.
384. I’d be inclined not to use roads then and force them to change tactics.
Except…. um… we don’t have enough choppers.
384, apparently the Taliban have started using plastic as much as possible rather than metal to evade metal detectors.
386 - The Tories have become very good at replies to those kind of questions, these days they actually rarely call for the head of the person involved etc. It was only last week they supported Johnson when he was digging a massive hole over Nutt.
372 Axp - spot on. As soon as I heard Gordon do the ‘I’ve apologised, I’ve done my best, if that’s not good enough for you…’
Blame-shifting = BIG NO NO
385 - We have no evidence that any copies were taken. It could well be that Brown got a copy of the letter from the Sun, as he had to have nown there was a problem in order to call the lady in the first place. He could only have known that there was a problem if the Sun contacted him and the Sun could only have recorded the call if they knew that Brown was going to make it. He has clearly been set up by the Sun. That does not make his behavious any more excusable, but it does demonstate that the Sun is deliberately looking to make this a big story.
392. “The fields are stuffed with IED’s.”
How can the fields be “stuffed” with them? A field is a huge area.
“Ditto. It doesn’t make much difference if your on top of, or 10 feet away from a 500lb bomb going off.”
I=D(squared) - it makes some difference.
“The locals are brazenly planting bombs in open view of the army compounds.”
When I read that.. I mean, Jesus…
What is the point?
374 Casino. All those and many others. The fact is that much like aspects of the Northern Ireland conflict we are fighting a low tech insurgency with multiple approaches some high tech and other - namely foot partols very much of the order of centuries past.
Put simply you cannot hold ground from the air alone, you have to put boots on the ground against an enemy that is of sufficient strength that not to do so would effectively cede that territory and the military initiative to the enemy.
Sadly we will continue to take casualties as the present rate and indeed worse until we are able to marginalise the Taliband in Helmond and push them back fully to and over the Pakistan borders.
397 - A simple apology would have killed the story on Monday morning
Now, because of the No 10 foul-ups, it will go on through Wednesday
The Sun don’t need to do anything. Brown et al are doing all the work for them
397 - “Clearly been setup by the Sun”, well you might want to be careful there, The Sun are absolutely categorical that the women came forward herself, wanted to do this, no money involved etc.
Also, if he had his own copy or one given by the Sun, he still had a copy and still denied spelling mistakes etc. He now has lied in his press conference. None of that is The Sun’s doing.
ARRSE reporting Clarkson’s anti-Mandelson article has been mysteriously removed: http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=137553/start=0.html
389 - No excuses from me. Brown has handled it very badly, as usual. However, I am pretty sure that he has been set up hook, line and sinker. Clearly, he was contacted by The Sun on Sunday and told that they were going to run this story. At that stage, I imagine they sent him a copy of the letter and arranged the call - knowing that they could then tape it. Of course, Brown should have apologised unreservedly to the mother, but being Brown he did not.
242. One of the most unpleasant posts I have seen on this site. Roger in complete lost-the-plot mode.
Actually it’s notable how many of our supposedly ‘compassionate’ left-wing posters on here have a tendency to post extremely callous and nasty remarks of that ilk.
403, I sort of agree. Funny how the Government wants a huge database to monitor our communications though, when they don’t seem so keen on it themselves.
399. “Sadly we will continue to take casualties as the present rate and indeed worse until we are able to marginalise the Taliband in Helmond and push them back fully to and over the Pakistan borders”
You really think that possible?
398 The military compounds in the outlying regions are ringed by layers of very well dug in Taliban in sophisticated trench systems. These people aren’t completely stupid - they’ve had years of fighting the Russians. Killing invaders is a national sport.
Can sniffer dogs detect explosive without detonating IEDs?
(leaving aside the fact that the RSPCA would go nuts)
401 - I am sure she came forward. I meant set up with regard to the phone call. The Sun could have reported that yesterday as well, but chose not to. They are out to squeeze this story for all they can. Of course, Brown should have ust apologised unreservedly. But he is Brown and cannot do that. I am not seeking to excuse him, merely to point out that the Sun is also spinning a story.
If The Sun were really that instrumental in Brown being set up, can I just say to David Roe - can your guys please get some better quality recording gear! Really no reason it shouldn’t have been crystal-clear digital sound…
Which to me suggests the recording of the call was not of their doing.
404 - As opposed to the sweetness and light that always resonates from the Tory posters, of course.
Brown has written over 200 letters, presumably all with similar errors. One complaint. That’s a 99.5% satisfaction rate. You can’t please everyone…
The Indy did tip Lady Ashton last week and I asked shadsy for a price and had a modest flutter.
357 “The level of personnel kit and the volume of it is very good.”
What i read was when Reid did his “not a shot fired” spiel and the bods first went in there was months of multiple Rorke’s Drifts going on all over the shop that wasn’t reported because the bods out there didn’t have enough water or ammunition and reporting it would have made the government look bad. My understanding it that eventually got better after many months.
“True also that armoured and lift capability is a problem.”
A problem is a bit of an understatement imo.
“However these priorities were laid down several years ago not at the behest of politicians but of very senior officers and top MoD wallers, although clearly signed off by the Minister of Defence.”
Is that what happened or did ZNL ask the military for best case, worst case and middle scenarios then picked the best case option because it was the cheapest only to find out they were dropping people into the worst case scenario?
“Sometimes with the best efforts and with a vastly increased defence budget un Labour, not everything at every time can be done.”
Vastly increased?
“Virtually all our casualties are foot patrol IED deaths”
Is that true? Again, hard to know from the tiny bits of info i’ve managed to glean but i had the impression a lot of the casualties came from IEDs on road supply convoys taking out unarmoured vehicles?
410 - The alternative is that the mother undertook the recording on her own and that she then immediately supplied it to The Sun. Do you think that is what happened? I hope not.
407. Are you saying they have actually invested our outposts and surrounded us with siege lines in the classic manner?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment_(military)
Surely they should be sitting ducks for Apaches and Gunships if that is the case.
414. “when Reid did his “not a shot fired” ”
That will be one of the defining quotations of this century.
Historians will look back at Reid and shake their heads in amazement.
406//408 Casino. Many more boots on the ground required to complete the mission Will Obama commit more troops and what of other NATO nations ??
Sniffer dogs can but the losses from Taliban activity would be massive.
“You can’t please everyone…”
Yeah, these mothers of young men killed because they blead to death because Brown hasn’t given them any helicopters. How dare they not appriciate all Brown does for them, huh?
414. “months of multiple Rorke’s Drifts”
Yes. That’s exactly what it reminds me of.
But the Zulus had some honour.
412: Laughable…for all the wrong reasons. Seriously, you’re just making yourself look more like a prize berk than normal.
414 MrJones. Debating with someone using terms like ZNL is worth the candle !!
Jesus. This is a CONTROLLED explosion of an IED in Iraq.
Remember that word: CONTROLLED.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IED_Controlled_Explosion.jpg
412: You really think then that Brown should stand up there and say ‘Well, you can’t please everybody…..’ ‘All the other mothers of dead soliders were very pleased with my letter’
He’ll be out of the door within the hour.
Clearly, he was contacted by The Sun on Sunday and told that they were going to run this story. At that stage, I imagine they sent him a copy of the letter and arranged the call - knowing that they could then tape it.
by Southam Observer November 10th, 2009 at 11:23 am
So you think a newspaper told Brown to call, or told the Number 10 switchboard to call Mrs Janes and pass the connection to Brown?
The ploy is well rehearsed by Labour. If in a hole, try and drag someone in with you as a distraction. So we have the constant mantra that the Sun is overplaying it’, whatever that means.
Has the Sun printed anything which is not true?
Did Brown write the original letter of his own volition?
Is the recording of the phone conversation a true record?
If the answer is yes to all of these, then it is not the Sun in the spotlight, it is Brown. He is now exposed in public for how he has behaved behind the doors for years.
What was it his colleagues said about him. Deluded control freak, psychologically flawed, Stalin, Mrs Rochester, he would be a ‘fuccking disaster as PM’, were a few of them, were they not?
So why should anyone be surprised by this behaviour now?
424 - “He’ll be out of the door within the hour”
More likely a window, but lets not quibble…!
416 ‘Are you saying they have actually invested our outposts and surrounded us with siege lines in the classic manner?’
Yes, they have around some compounds. It’s a stalemate situation - they shoot at us, we lob some mortars back. There’s no point in clearing them out, they’ll soon be rebuilt and tooled up again.
The big problem at the moment is resupply. They’ve got the basics, but nothing else can get through without costly land convoys fighting their way in, due to the lack of helicopter lift capacity.
418. Hasn’t he done so today (or last night) ?
Each patrol has a couple of dogs with the lead man. Man covers dog with rifle. Dog detects IED.
Politicans and press then tell RSPCA and animal rights knobbers to shut-up.
Dead dog = not as bad as dead soldier.
Did Roger really call the mother of a slaughtere soldier - A solider his Labour government sent into battle - A sh*T?
The leftie mask has really slipped this morning hasn’t it? Those ever so pious, hollier-than-thou, lefties aren’t quite so nice after all are they?
424. I’m not saying it. Other recipients of the letters have already said it publicly. This is the worst sort of yellow journalism from the Sun [no surprise there!].
Voting down the queens speech might notbe such a bad idea… remember, if there is a GE in september, all those naughty mps who owe thousands of pounds wont have to pay it back. If they are voted out no pay, if they are re-elected, no pay! im sure there are 32 lab mps who are thinking the same thing!!!
It would be better if Cameron (if he becomes PM) stops this recent practice of sending hand-written letters to grieving parents, perhaps after the Afghan war ends and there is a lull in the number of casualties. A letter makes sense if you knew the person or had met them, but otherwise it’s just going through the motions.
425 absolutely. All this ‘trying to do the right thing’ crap - were he trying to do the right thing he would apologise unreservedly and admit his mistakes. That he didn’t even when offered up an underarm lob at the press conference speaks volumes.
As for his treatment - the employer of Damain McBride really ought to expect much worse than he is getting.
433 and by that I mean that clearly his view of ‘the right thing’ is fundametally wrong-headed and at odds with the rest of us. Hence he is utterly the wrong man for the job.
432. On the West Wing, President Bartlett speaks to them on the phone - much better than relying on the Royal Mail..
425 - No, I think that the Sun told Brown it was running the story and supplied him with a copy of he letter it was goin to be publishing? If it did not, how on earth would he have known to call Mrs Janes. I also think that the Sun was instrumental in recording the conversation between the two of them.
None of which excuses Brown. As I keep on saying.
432 It started under Thatcher so not exactly recent.
275. I also got this survey. I liked the question where you had 100 points to allocate to different issues. The questions seemed to be mainly based on the economy and opinion of Brown & the current government. No voting intention.
409 - How many papers print all of a big story in one go? People were saying how masterful the Telegraph were for spinning one out for THREE MONTHS, let alone 2 days.
410 - I have no idea how the recording was done but the story could not have been published without the full and willing co-operation of this grieving mother.
Can we repeat this point. The grieving mother.
And yes, it is likely that had they been using studio equipment, the sound quality would have been better.
I stress I haven’t been in the office for 10 days and only got back to the UK last night so this is all catch up for me.
If it was a set up it was a bear trap with a huge signpost. A simple apology and he could have come out of this with very little harm. If he’d said it was a sad error and he will ensure it doesn’t happen again but the feelings expressed were heartfelt and personal he could have actually got some credit.
But it is another case of astonishing lack of ability from the PM and he’s just added another chapter to his personal book on courage. He gets annoyed at grieving mothers on the phone.
430. I’m no fan of Murdoch or The Sun, but I’m not sure why they are getting so much venom. The mother did, afterall, go to them with the letter.
437 I knew that. When you’re my age Mrs Thatcher is recent.
O/T from Conhome
After the resignation of David Bull as PPC for Brighton Pavilion earlier in the year, a new candidate will be selected from six contenders at a meeting open to all voters in the constituency next week.
The final six are:
Douglas Chirnside
Scott Digby
Anna Firth
Charlotte Vere
Mary Weale
Andrew Wealls
The meeting will take place at the Grand Hotel on November 18th at 6.30pm. Anyone on the electoral register in Brighton Pavilion wanting to register to attend should call 01273 411844 or contact the association via email with their name, address and contact number by 12pm on Monday November 16th.
423 I think (from the summary) that it’s a controlled explosion of more than one IED (”Controlled explosion of anti-tank mines placed by Iraqi Republican Guard, IED’s and other ordnance”).
Makes sense to do a job-lot, I suppose.
Southam O you are stretching now. You actually said,
I am pretty sure that he has been set up hook, line and sinker. Clearly, he was contacted by The Sun on Sunday and told that they were going to run this story. At that stage, I imagine they sent him a copy of the letter and arranged the call - knowing that they could then tape it./i>
How did they arrange the call? Mrs Janes rang Brown? The Sun certainly didn’t instruct the Downing Street switchboard - if you think they did you know nothing of that august institution.
These are all excuses for the inexcusable.
443 –FFS, a good point, well presented, however, why stack all the explosives under a bridge?
Seems odd don’t you think?
Really the ‘i’m not excusing him, but…blah blah blah’
is another version of ‘i’m not a racist but…’
Someone said earlier that Mrs Janes put GB’s call on the speaker and a neighbour recorded it on her phone.
Did Brown’s Tech College students ever complain about not being able to read his handwriting on a blackboard?
All you need to know about Gordon Brown is contained in one sentence:
‘An “infallible” method of cheating your way into bring-a-bottle parties is to “use a carrier bag of empty cans with two half-bricks at the bottom”.’
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23391907-how-to-scrounge-off-the-state-by-gordon-brown.do
The man is a total shit.
I’m worried. Not about Brown (we all know him by now) but about the collective state of mind of the Labour Party. The ‘betrayal’ of The Sun really appears to have unhinged them. The first indications were evinced last month at their conference: the tantrums of delegates, the sustained sniping at the paper from speeches by cabinet ministers, Mandelson shrieking obscenities at News International executives - all both bizarre and appalling to behold! Now Brown’s unfortunate but forgivable faux pas is being seized upon by Labour to reignite this unseemly slagging match with its former ally. So unstable have they become that I can quite imagine the grieving mother of that dead soldier being branded a ‘Tory stooge and payee of the Murdoch Empire’ by some high-ranking Labourite before the day is out. It’s becoming that nasty and strange.
448. I imagine they were all either asleep or absent most of the time and so didn’t notice.
449 Spurned Lover Syndrome
350, I can write legibly with both eyes closed, as can most people if they try. You no more think about what your hand is doing when writing than what your tongue is doing when speaking, so you don’t need to actually see it. It’s only if you routinely write blind that your handwriting begins to decay.
Thus, your experiment proves little. You’d need to try living with limited vision for several weeks to do that. However, Brown knows perfectly well his eyesight is flawed. All he needed to do was look properly at what he’d written, with a magnifying glass if need be, and use a pen with a fine nib.
The Sun is being rather tacky in trying to exploit this, but Brown is clearly in the wrong.
The point about all of this is, if Brown had just rang up the mother, apologised unreservedly, listened to the mothers grief and concerns, empathised and charmed her and then invited her to meet him in person at a later when her feelings weren’t as raw (all the thing Tony Blair would have done, in other words) he may have actually come out of all this with his reputation enhanced.
But of course thats not Brown. And because of that Labour are blaming the mother and the Sun for an issue that ultimately should have been nothing more than a minor embarrasment at most, but has been allowed to blow up into a crisis because of Brown appalling social skills and Labours terrible attitude.
Stark D it is really worrying that this mind set is at the heart of government, and no-one at the top Labour table is prepared to do anything, let alone say anything about it.
Downing Street is clearly heavily and expensively staffed and inversely effective to the numbers of people and pounds spent.
In that it mirrors the whole government. Spend incontinently and incompetently but constantly claim all is not only well, but superbly so.
With a real war and an economic war on at the same time that is a very dangerous position for us to be in.
450 They were more likely to be following Browns wise words on scrounging, and filling plastic bags with empty cans and bricks before filching drinks at parties. Or milking the benefits system.
444 - How would Brown have known to make the call if he had not been told The Sun was going to run the story?
What bit of “None of this excuses Brown’s behaviour” are you finding it difficult to grasp?
449: they have lost (hugely) what has been their prime advantage over the last 10 years. Control of a willing media. It is now only the BBC and the dying guardian/independant/mirror which can stick with them.
446 - Really? How very insightful of you.
453 Agree. The Sun aren’t really the ones fuelling this - it’s the mother and McDoom’s response(s) that’s giving it legs.
445 SSC - I presume it’s actually level ground, although it does look a bit like a bridge. Since it’s a wikipedia photo there’s no way of really knowing anything more about it…
Either way, it’s clear from the linking article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_explosive_device) that they can be pretty powerful, and surprisingly sophisticated to boot.
418-Sniffer dogs can but the losses from Taliban activity would be massive.
Won’t happen, as having dogs would “upset” Muslims. Same way we don’t wrap their corpses up in pig skin. The latter may be an urban legend. Not a Muslim scholar so not sure of exact status even if it did happen.
http://pinoyhistory.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=othereras&action=display&thread=282
457 Attacking the mother and the Sun is immensely stupid politics - Whelan on R5 this morning had me laughing in amazement at it’s all those nasty Tories and their mate Murdoch [oh and its all a giant conspiracy theory to do with Ofcom and shutting down the BBC's website].
I think the Sun has gone a bit far TBH but it’s got Labour right on the ropes on its favourite subject - soldiers, the one service that is almost never ever criticised by anyone.
Firemen and nurses are the next group, followed by animal and cancer charity workers
455. It is odd that no-one appears to have told the media about they enjoyed the lectures from their now famous lecturer in History.
It makes me wonder if Dr James Gordon Brown ever gave any lectures.
Why is Arnand reading out Brown’s words, yet relaying one side of the conversation?
349. You’re right Stark Dawning. And now Slackbladder is making out there’s some equivalence between racism and Murdoch - after all those years of Murdoch supporting new labour! Seems like they’re suffering from a kind of collective nervous breakdown.:roll:
462. Of course the Sun has gone OTT - that is what the Sun does. But this story only has legs because of Brown’s wild ineptitude.
Watching the various Labour (’I'm not Labour really nor am I excusing Brown but…) apologists on here flail around this morning is very amusing.
I’ve noted 2 odious comments from someone called ‘Rodcrosby’ (seebelow). Sorry the women wasnt ”umble’ enough to accept the great leaders sympathy with more joy. I suppose she doesnt lose her son everyday.
If this is what passes for the Modern Labour party supporter I dispair. Remember its your mob who have behaved like hysterical ’shits’ at every possible juncture smearing anyone who criticised you. Would you have the balls to say this to the mother face to face?. I doubt it.
‘In my experience grieving people are usually at their most humble grateful for all the sympathy offered. This woman by secretly recording a conversation with the Prime Minister in order to give it to the Sun has behaved atrociously. Grief doesn’t forgive this anymore than it excuses any other grotesque behaviour. Nice people are nice people and shits are shits.’
‘It’s all terribly undignified, petty and mawkish. Woman demented by grief turns on visually-impaired man for writing sloppy letter of condolnce [sic]. Perhaps she would have felt better with a photocopied pro-forma from the under-secretary of state…’
442 Thanks Ghost
Bit late for a new PPC, isn’t it? Can’t help but think this will help ‘Loopy’ Lucas in her bid to become the first Green MP.
My voucher with ‘Greens at 4/1′ on it just got a little warmer.
464: I’m not actually…Just saying that often people say ‘I’m not XXXXX…..then go on to actually XXXXXX’. That’s all.
464. 349=449.
467 You’re right to bet on her.
If I were on the Approved List, I wouldn’t waste time applying for Pavilion.
Re Brown not falling into the trap, I could have imagined a conversation something like this.
I’m sorry to have caused you more sorrow in your time of grief, I was only trying to offer my sincere condolences and this has obviously not happened. My only explanation is that I wrote your letter in some of the rare free time I have at the end of the day and unfortunately missed the errors. I can only blame fatigue and that no one else saw the letter before I posted it.
I apologise once again …
I think that would have defused the issue.
461 The armed forces have sniffer dogs in the Afghan theatre. They’re too valuable to use for IED clearance.
Arnand reading out ‘critical’ emails first.
The ones below are from Iraq, but you will get the idea of what an IED can be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51AgvErYIpE&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GduDhBKyuwg
re 467. I’m on that bet as well Peter. Great value.
Just to let everybody know that the predictions of the modestly titled “PB SUPER SIX” will be featured later today.
These have all shared lists of their general election seat bets and PtP and ScottP have put it together into a chart.
467 - Did we ever get to the bottom of why Bull stood down? He doesnt seem to have been offered a real alternative post yet but I suppose that can come after the election.
467. Yes none of those names jump off the page.
First Green MP a real chance now.
When Diana Gould took on Thatcher she was a heroine and became the darling of the media. Compare and contrast with poor Mrs Janes who is either a poor simple fool, manipulated by the Sun, or alternatively a nasty Tory stooge. Incroyable.
479-Ah, the left wing media has always been with us. I thought the BBC always sided with the government of the day. How wrong I was.
Off topic, the Lib Dems, Cons and John Smeaton are all sinking on SPIN in the Glasgow NE by-election market. That implies that someone else (presumably the BNP) may indeed have better chances of finishing third than previously thought.
Brown’s growing on me.
I just listened to that call and heard someone acting like a human being and not a scumbag politician.
Tony Blair wouldn’t have got into trouble like that. He’d have soothed, elided and emoted. When the woman asked for an explanation of what was going on with those helicopters, he’d have evaded it rather than playing the unwinnable game of actually answering it.
He could probably have gone straight from that to sending a bunch more kids to die to look for made-up weapons without missing a beat.
476 Thanks Mike - Yes, The Super Six do not believe in hiding their lights behind a bushel.
Stay tuned, PBers, for one the greatest flights of fancy since Jarhead! !
The Janes’s letter story tells us something new about Gordon Brown and that is he has not come to terms with his disability.
467 PtP - Certainly 4/1 was a very good punt, and as you say switching candidate at this stage is not ideal. However, an open primary could be an effective way of regaining lost ground and establishing momentum, if it works well as in Totnes (and isn’t a disaster as in Bedford).
It’s interesting to look at the current best odds:
Con 13/8 (Ladbrokes, Sky, PP)
Lab 2/1(ditto plus Wm Hill)
Greens 2/1 (VC)
I have a hunch that this will end up as a Green/Tory contest, so IMO the current odds on Labour are too short.
From Hill’s press site:
GOOD NEWS FOR GORDON AT LAST - LABOUR FAVOURITES TO WIN BY ELECTION
THE FIRST GAMBLE on Labour to win a by-election since Gordon Brown came to power has seen William Hill slash the odds about a victory for them in the Glasgow North East by-election, from Even money to 2/9 red hot favourites. ‘We’d almost given up hope that there were any Labour-fancying political punters left, until they suddenly began to back Labour to win in Glasgow - we haven’t seen a Labour gamble since Tony Blair’s days!’ said Hill’s spokesman Graham Sharpe.
By contrast, the SNP odds have gone from 8/11 odds-on favourites, out to 3/1. ‘There is little support for the SNP to upset Labour this time’ said Sharpe.
LATEST WILLIAM HILL GENERAL ELECTION ODDS….2/7 Conservative majority; 14/1 Labour Majority; 11/4 Hung Parliament.
YOU BET BLAIR IN RETREAT
TONY BLAIR’s odds of becoming European President have drifted from odds-on favourite to 11/2 with William Hill who make Herman Van Rompuy 8/13 favourite, and also offer 7/1 Jean-Claude Juncker and Jan-Peter Balkenende; 10/1 Wolfgang Schlussel; 11/1 Paavo Lipponen; 12/1 Felipe Gonzalez; 14/1 Guy Verhoftstadt. ‘If money talks - as it frequently does in political betting - then Tony Blair’s hopes of becoming President are dead in the water’ said Hill’s spokesman Graham Sharpe.
482 ‘He could probably have gone straight from that to sending a bunch more kids to die to look for made-up weapons without missing a beat.’
Instead he’s sending underequipped and poorly resourced kids to fight in an extremely hostile environment. What’s the difference?
Brown’s misdeeds have finally come back to haunt him.
482. So Brown’s an honest straight talker now, eh? Perhaps he has a moral compass as well?
That must explain why he surrounds himself with the lowest kind of lying, smearing pondlife.
479. The abuse the left are dooling out at her is appalling. On this website I’ve seen her called a sh*t. On another website I’ve seen her called a nasty bitch. Its being infered that she either out of her mind and is being expolited by the Sun, or that she’s actually a cold hearted, calculating woman thats involved in some sort of conspiracy with the Sun (and presumably the Tories?) to ruin the Labour government.
And all because she didn’t think it acceptable to recieve a letter that spelt her late sons name wrong and didn’t take kindly to Brown ringing her up and seeming to blame HER for not reading the letter correctly.
Dear oh dear.
481 antifrank - It might indicate a bit of tactical betting in a not-very-liquid market. I took a modest profit by selling my Con position and re-investing at Ladbrokes for better odds, and maybe others did the same.
485 Richard Nabavi.
I have been offering 3.60 Labour at Brighton Pavilion since The Prince Regent was in residence and still no takers.
The attacks, especially by Mandelson, on the Sun reflect the huge investment New Labour put into developing social relationships with the Murdoch clan and key News International people. Murdoch has been a regular guest at Chequers & Downing St throughout Blair & Brown’s premierships and right up to the “Betrayal” there was continued socialisation. Last year for example Sarah Brown traveled to New York to host an event with Wendi Murdoch. This article, from a year ago, by John Harris details the complex inter-relationships of Blair, Brown & Mandelson with key players.
Then Cameron & Osborne arrived and gradually displaced New Labour, Osborne developed a friendship with James Murdoch, Cameron concentrated on the Freuds & Rebekah.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/nov/13/elisabeth-murdoch-matthew-freud-politics
482 - take a tablet
475 kinell
490 - That’s a fair point. I’ve certainly been playing the markets. My only losing position is if none of John Smeaton, the Lib Dems and the Tories come third, and even then my loss is not too bad. My definite betting preference is for a Tory third place.
476/483 Mike S/PtP. ” …. the modestly titled “PB SUPER SIX”
Clearly a second division grouping after the two “PB TITANS” whose names escape me for the moment !!
Have we missed an opinion poll? I don’t see a thread on this one:
“Opinion poll Tories 42%-Labour 28% - written by John_P_Reid
Posted on November, 9 at 6:20 pm
The Independent is carrying the latest opinion poll Withe the tories up 3% from last month to 42% and labour up 3% from last month to 28%, in away this is similar to the 87 election where the Alliance vote (as they were called at the time)collapsed in the run upto the election.”
http://www.labourhome.org/?p=8295
463 - On reflection, I wonder if it is immensely stupid politics. Labour knows the next election is lost, so why bother trying to stay onside with a newspaper that is only ever going to attack you anyway? What going to war with Murdoch and the Sun does is free Labour up once in opposition, as well as mobilising the base that will be needed to ensure that Labour does not fall to the 120 seats that Jackie Ashley was wriitng about yesterday.
The key is not to attack Mrs Janes herself, but the way in which the Sun is running with the story. Obviously, the Tories on here will spin it to make it seem that is exactly what Labour is doing, but I am not sue most people will agree with that. We shall see. In short, I don’t actually think this will do Labour much harm because the election is already lost. From here on in, being at war with the Murdoch media may actually only be a benefit to Labour.
489 - When you say “The Left” do you mean all people on the left, most people on the left, some people on the left or several individuals on the left? There is a big difference, as you clearly know. If Tim had said something along these lines about Tories you would have called it a smear.
The best GE market for me so far is the Betfair election date market - we had 2 years from Autumn 2007 with people backing this spring and that autumn which came and went but it was pretty obvious after the crunch that Gordo would drag it out to the end hoping for recovery.
So I have some funds to invest - looking for some top tips later
485 Hmmmm…think I might pop down to Brighton and attend that ‘Primary’. (I have a temporary residence there English’s restaurant.)
I reckon you can safely rule out Labour and back the other two for a small profit, but in view of today’s news perhaps the 2/1 Greens is the best value. It depends on how the Primary goes though. It worked well in Totnes, but badly in Bedford.
Funny constituency, Brighton. You feel anything could happen.
498 SO “The key is not to attack Mrs Janes herself, but the way in which the Sun is running with the story.”
Very tricky, and too great a risk. They’d do better to shut up.
496 ‘The Twin Towers’, Jack.
We need no introduction.
We’re going to win Brighton Pavillion. People don’t vote for minor parties in a changeover election.
497 wasnt it a poll of polls…
492 - Its all about mobilising the base, or wat’s left of it.
I suppose News International have to hope that Labour does not return to power for a good while. And if they should somehow win the next election, I imagine the NI business strategy for the next few years may have to go out the window!
467. I’m not a Labour supporter, and didn’t write one of the two quotes you attribute to me. Perhaps you are visually-impaired too?
497: that is a ‘poll of polls’ so not a new one.
502 - Again, I am not so sure. My sense is that a lot of peple are pretty sympathetic to both Brown and Mrs Janes right now, and that the Sun could end up being the bogeyman in all this. I am pretty sure that the Tories will not want to get into a position where they are being seen to defend the Sun, so Labour pretty has an open field if it does want to go on the attack and state this all about the Sun having an anti-Labour agenda. This may help to neutralise at least in part all the future anti-Labour stuff the Sun does.
500 Harry
The Individual Constituency markets are beginning to liven up. Don’t bother with Betfair; there’s no liquidity, but check out the prices with the main bookies. There are some remarkable discrepancies. (I pointed out one yesterday at Stockton South but Richard Nabavi hogged the price and it’s gone now.)
Be patient, bet on constituencies you know, or where you get good solid information. PB is great for that. A lot of the best punters on here bet in trivial sums so you often get the chance to capitalise on the information they provide free of charge.
I reckon you should be able to get a 25% return on capital - £250 for every £1,000 of bets - but do it in small bites and keep your eyes open for any sudden market shifts.
Good luck!
475. Holy Mother of God.
The second one was far more powerful than I thought they could be.
485. Except - it’s not an open primary. It’s an open caucus.
503 PtP. “We” !! “We” !!
I think you’ll find that by losing by that vast margin in the “PB World Betting Forcaster and General Good-Egg Vote” and your failure to engage in the “Great Watford Debate” has relegated you to the under Titans of the “PB Super Six”
Think Chelsea and Manchester Utd against the likes of Everton, Tottenham !!
I would like to come out as the first Scottish Labour supporter to post on pb.com. I think Iain Gray’s the dug’s baws!
513.
NEW THREAD
Is the Glasgow North-East by-election this Thursday?
Could provide some good news for Brown.
512 It’s true, Jack, I’ve never really recovered from that crushing defeat.
Tell me, how much did you pay your peasants to trawl the internet cafes of Hertfordshire posting votes?
344- donkey’s versus cyber nits
499- before you complain about people generalising again you should re read your own post “Obviously, the Tories on here will spin it to make it seem that is exactly what Labour is doing”.
FWIW I think Brown has been pretty badly treated here, especially taping the phone call, that is really low. But there’s no point trying to associate the Tory party with such tactics because we weren’t involved. The Sun did it on their own frolic.
When Alan Duncan invited the guy who had vandalised his garden for drinks, he betrayed Duncan’s trust and recorded the conversation. Labour have used that as a line of attack so it would be hypocritical to complain about this. Especially Brown, given his track record on spin and unpleasant tactics.
Coral - Who Will Be The Next Permanent Labour Leader?
Alan Johnson 9/4
David Miliband 4/1
Ed Miliband 6/1
Harriet Harman 6/1
Peter Mandelson 9/1
James Purnell 14/1
Jon Cruddas 14/1
Andy Burnham 16/1
Jack Straw 16/1
Alistair Darling 20/1
Ed Balls 20/1
John Denham 25/1
Hilary Benn 33/1
Yvette Cooper 33/1
Alan Milburn 66/1
Charles Clarke 66/1
John Hutton 66/1
John Reid 66/1
93. Well, as a “left-leaning woman” (actually I stand reasonably upright and doubt my politics have anything to do with my gender-but there ya go) I have very little sympathy with a politician that STUPID.
I do demand intelligence in a politician and how hard would it have been for the man to say, “I am so sorry to have added to your grief. Please believe that I meant well.”
It boggles the mind that so highly placed a politician could be so dim-witted.
I agree with JR Tomlin. This story would perhaps have moved away from the front page since now the lady has accepted his apology; but of what do we hear? Ah it’s no one other than Mandelson attacking the Sun for attacking Brown. This no doubt self entitled master of the media has only his collegues’ best intentions by giving him more connection with the story and won’t think of the lady’s going to the Sun as she did say just yesterday. Perhaps it’s a spot of revenge for some passing snub from way back, forgetting he might have been on Brown’s blind side. But Brown deserves Mandelson & v-v. We don’t.
Anyone else think we have Gordon W. Brown in charge?