Will attacking Etonians win or lose votes?
December 2nd, 2009
Could Brown’s toff-bashing quip turn-off middle England?
John Rentoul makes a good point about one aspect of Brown’s PMQ’s performance on his Independent blog:-
“…..there was one line that was too good to use. Brown invoked the name of Zac Goldsmith, the dormantly non-dom Conservative candidate, and said that David Cameron’s inheritance tax cut seemed like something “dreamt up on the playing fields of Eton”. .Having a go at Cameron’s school, chosen for him by his parents: Not Going to Work.
It is a core vote strategy that may appeal to people that would vote Labour anyway; Middle England won’t like it.”
Tony Blair won three successive victories for Labour because he made his party “safe” for the middle classes in “middle England” to vote for his party.
Brown was always going to find that difficult to follow that and Rentoul’s right - making silly class-war type comments could go down like a lead balloon with this key large segment of the electorate.
It’s not in Labour parts of Scotland where the general election will be decided but in the small to medium size towns of England that were picked up by Blair in the 1997 landslide.
If the Prime Minister is to prevent a Tory majority then he’s got to stop the seepage of support in England. Maybe in bald general election terms it was Cameron’s PMQs after all?
HAT-tip ScottP
Mike Smithson
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It will go down well with the minor public schoolboys
Wow ! Who said it was a bad day on pbc ?
It will go down well with
*class warriors
*inverted snobs
*tim
*Ed Balls
but not the voters of Crewe and Nantwich it seems.
Damn!
There is no place for Class bigotry in today’s world, it is even more offensive when it comes from the lips of a Prime Minister.
First it was the Latvians, now the Old Estonians?
I’ll get me coat….
Some of it sticks. People still not keen on being run by toffs like Osborne, although Cameron and Boris seem forgiven, at least for now…
re 3. Ed Balls went to a £10,000 a year public school. Clearly his parents didn’t have enough left over for the optional elocution lessons.
FPT - It’s not where he went to school.
Its the fact that he’s reimbursing the fees to his family, adjusted for inflation, while singing “We’re all in this together”
If their daddies really loved them they would have sent them to Eton.
It’s clearly a vote winner as Crewe (Labour vote -18%) and Norwich (Labour vote -26%) proved.
Who says it won’t stick? I don’t know why people assume Middle England, which nowadays seems to include everyone from white van man up, is going to form ranks in class solidarity with the Upper Class Twits Of The Year.
9 If you think the entire motivation for the IHT cut is personal benefit, tim, why exactly did Cameron announce it at all? And why did Labour instantly copy it?
8. He puts his current accent on, as does his wife and as Blair sometimes did.
As someone who was the first person in their family to go to a public school and we lived above the family shop - I find the whole class/inverted snobbery REALLY offensive.
If Gordon majors on this as a meme - well he deserves everything he gets.
You overestimate Eton’s appeal to the middle classes. Eton has never been a school held in the highest regard by ‘middle england’ and you are wrong to say otherwise, in my humble opinion.
I think the “fields of Eton” joke would cause a bit of tittering among a sizeable amount of the privately-educated ‘chattering classes’, directed at David Cameron.
9 FPT I see the TIMBOT’s busy getting his kicks, posting this afternoons quota of the online equivalent of the random obscene phone call.
White van man up !!!!!! New Labour revealed.
Only in Britain would getting an amazing education be seen as a bad thing.
It would all be much better if we had a former postie as PM..
I see we have another set of mystery posters emerging for this thread as well.
8 Sure Ed had de-elecution lessons, probably at greater expense
If “middle” England really is offended by attacks on Eton, they’re clearly delusional about their own place in the world. Do they really think that Cameron is one of them?
I think Labour do have an effective attack line in trying to portray the Conservatives as favouring the rich, especially since Labour’s over-riding priority is to distract attention from the state of the public finances.
However, experience suggests they (and especially Brown) will mess up the attack by over-doing it, and this seems to have already started. Saying that a tax proposal was ‘dreamt up on the playing fields of Eton’ has little resonance because it makes no sense.
In any case it is obvious that the Tory strategists will have noticed that this flank is a tad exposed, and presumably they will respond appropriately in the run-up to the GE - I would guess with some eye-catching policies aimed at the low-paid.
Meanwhile, Tories bleating about undoing the 50p tax rate should shut up; Osborne and Cameron are right to play this down.
Spot on Mike. It will shore up the core vote in Scotland, and keep the SNP at bay, but will stink like a dead fish in the English marginals.
20 tim’s minor public school chums from the St Bots Academy (Salford).
24. “It will shore up the core vote in Scotland, and keep the SNP at bay”
Doubtful, if the new Mori poll is anything like accurate.
The Beeb reporting that the RBS Board will resign if the government insist on cancelling £1.5bn in bonuses.
An open goal for the government :
“We accept. Many in these difficult times will relish the opportunity to serve.”
The danger of this line of attack for Labour is its triviality. Gordon Brown’s more biting attack today was on how David Cameron was reduced from talking about the economy to talking about inheritance tax.
When the public come to cast their votes, they will not be regarding the school that the party leaders went to as the critical consideration. They might, however, ponder on whether they want the country to be led by someone who seems to think that is the defining difference between the parties and the most important issue for the election.
22
They should know their place in the world, eh James.
Upper Class twits? I just sat and wondered how many Upper Class Twits, who played on the playing fields of Eton and other public schools, lost their lives in Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan?
I just thought of the excellent officers, trained at Sandhurst, from people of all classes. Upper twits and Lower Twits paid with their lives on these Labour wars?
How many sons or daughters of Labour MP’s have fought in these wars, compared with Tories and Lib Dems? How many MP’s from the Labour Ranks have been members of the Territorials? I do know of conservative MP’s who have served in the Territorials!
Brown should be made to crawl in the gutter for this class war he has started. Crawl in the gutter whilst apologising to every mother and father, husband or wife and the children of those who gave their lives, for Labour Wars and this country, and who were educated, at their parents expense and not the Country’s,in Private (Public) schools.
For the record I am a former secondary Modern Scholar from a council estate with many Upper Class Twit friends.
27. Depends what it does for the share price - as we the taxholders have a large holding we would decline to be impressed if the uncertainty caused our holding to halve in value.
26 - The word between new and poll should concern.
Cherry picking polls is something we do too often on here anyway.
On topic. I don’t think it will matter much in itself as not that many people CARE about what school anyone went to. But the suggestion that Labour intend a class war battle suggests a core vote tactic intended to lose an election as narrowly as possible rather than an attempt to keep together the voters that elected Blair three times.
It’s probably not a bad idea and should keep more than a Labour rump in Parliament.
16. I think you are right. There is a definite hierarchy among public schools and those not among the “major public schools” hate schools like Eton, Winchester, St Pauls and Tonbridge
27 Jack W - Surely the danger from the government’s point of view is that Darling finds himself in the legal minefield of becoming a Shadow Director?
Is this the ultimate non-denial denial?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/dec/02/tiger-woods-regret-car-crash
I suspect that the Eton point simply ties in Zac Goldsmith to PMQ’s.
His spokesman would not say how much the decision would cost the son of the late billionaire, SirJames Goldsmith. “The benefits were very marginal,” he said. “I don’t know if it is £10 or £10,000.”
Very marginal to someone who’s very wealthy of course, but not to most people, when the average wage is £25,000.
Abd the Tories IHT pledge benefits most those who regard £10,000 ar “marginal”
29. In that case, what’s the point of using this hideous phrase “middle England” if it has no meaning? A five-year-old could see the difference between the word “middle” and the top 0.1% of the population who have the remotest chance of going to Eton.
Reply to NPMP FPT - Thanks for the reply NPMP. I’d heard that there had been a shifting of resources to the next band of seats. Even on a hung parliament swing of 10% there is some method in the madness. They have money to spare and we know Labour don’t so forcing the shifting of funds around is no bad strategy. Moving it up the list makes it possible to target seats that would have been considered safe. I am hoping that there is no complacency and I suspect that we will see a general targeting during the post-Christmas period.
I remember being offered poster sites at short notice during the run up to the last GE so it was obvious that parties had block-purchased posters sites just in case…
On the Etonian issue, it might feel good (and certainly Brown looked pleased with himself) it isn’t smart politics long-term. Having watched it again, today’s PMQs was about setting the political landscape before the PBR. Cameron was pushing on the G20 growth issue. He is trying to set that up as the perspective that the media come from. We’ve also seen that the Treasury are dripping out the poor growth figures early, so this looks like it could be the battleground on the PBR. I’ve seen reports that the Republicans are moving towards “All this money spent and still rising unemployment etc…” I wonder if that is what we’ll see from the Tories on that.
Where Brown risks loosing it with the Etonian line is if he seems more concerned about these jibes whilst Cameron focuses on the issues as it where. Personality v issues doesn’t play well in a GE campaign.
What, who is Middle England, it’s an expression like hard working families and means little or nothing. I have no idea if I am quarter, middle or three quarters England.
People vote on policies and perceptions of policies.
The policy will go down well in Harrow.
- “Could Brown’s toff-bashing quip turn-off middle England?”
Yes.
In Brown’s vocabulary the word “toff” is a euphemism for “English”. Telling English voters not to vote for the Conservative Party because they are English does not work as well as Brown’s mafia mob telling Scottish voters not to vote for the Conservative Party because they are English.
He is a slow learner. But Andrew Duff MEP would be proud of him. Perhaps together the Lib-Labs can “defeat the English”?
http://www.theenglandproject.net/wordpress/?p=501
31 TGoHF. Only a paper loss until sold, if loss there be.
Maggie wouldn’t have been blackmailed. - “We accept, shut the door on the way out !!”
Al the class war stuff is very overplayed on both sides of the equation. My experience is that people just do not care that much - they don’t care that DC went to Eton, they don’t care that Brown has a dig about him going to Eton. It’s all irrelevant.
The real issue is whether the Tories are planning a series of tax cuts for the very well off at the same time as telling everyone that “we are all in this together”. Clearly this is gaining at least some traction and the Tories on here, in the Commons and elsewhere do not like it. So clearly Labour will keep pushing it for all its worth.
It is worth nothing, by the way, that the Mirror has been going very strong on putting the Tories under the spotlight for the last week or so. From a Labour perspective, it is doing an excellent job and has got Cameron and Co rattled.
36 - tim, is it fair that your children benefit from IHT exemption purely because they happen to be born into a family that owns a farm?
8 - If Cameron started saying things like that it would certainly cost him votes. Most people have some kind of accent and don’t like it when others look down on them because of it.
34 Richard N. Darling can appoint some directors and advertize for others. The salaries are tempting.
Politically the government should run with this for all its worth.
42. Yes maybe - but if price goes down too far then confidence could precipitate another bailout. You could always pay minimum wage and see how the bank performs..
43 - The Lib Dems plan to run very hard with the IHT policy as well.
Simon Hughes has said today that they are going to carry on attacking it right up until the election.
And you are right, the Tories are gradually realising what a huge mistake it was.
TIm - Brown is the only one to have reduced the inheritence threshold. Turn your class war fire on him, a man clearly trying to feather his own nest by paying less inheritance tax.
32. “The word between new and poll should concern.
Cherry picking polls is something we do too often on here anyway.”
I’m scarcely cheery-picking polls, David - I commented at length here last week about the YouGov poll that was unfavourable for the SNP, so I’m certainly not going to be bashful about mentioning a new poll that has the SNP ahead for Westminster.
Your first sentence is slightly baffling, but if it’s intended to imply that the poll is not really “new”, all you have to do is check the fieldwork dates on the Ipsos-Mori website - it concluded just over a week ago, which makes it slightly more recent than the YouGov poll. Yes, it’s only one poll, but it’s also the most up-to-date information we have.
“And you are right, the Tories are gradually realising what a huge mistake it was.”
Why did Labour immediately copy it?
Maybe Cameron should respond with “Yeah, but you’re a Scot, so shut up!”
Infact the entire Conservative campaign should just be “Do you want a Scot to run you? Of course not, vote for the English guy”
I see we are now in weekly post-PMQ letters season…
“Hammond letter to Brown on Spain/G20 claim
“Today when faced with a simple and direct question, you chose to mislead the House of Commons by stating that Spain is in the G20.
This is simply not true. While Spain has attended recent G20 meetings, it is not a member of the Group. Indeed, you explicitly admitted in a press conference last year that:
‘Spain is not a member of the G20’ (16 October 2008)
On Monday, David Cameron took the opportunity on the floor of the House to correct a factual inaccuracy from the previous Question Time. I trust that you too will take the earliest opportunity on the floor of the House to apologise and amend the record.
I would also be grateful if you could confirm that, contrary to your assertions today, the United Kingdom will be the last country in the G20 to exit recession.” ”
http://page.politicshome.com/uk/conservatives_call_on_brown_to_apologise_for_spain_g20_claim.html
I honestly don’t think it will make any differance to middle England. Middle England will hardly notice Browns quip and those that do won’t care.
But, we’ve got this kind of class war week in and week out for the next several months - Middle England will notice and be none to impressed. Brown is hoping his core vote, who will lap all of this rubbish up, will be enough to get him a hung parliament - They won’t.
I reckon “the right old Eton mess” way well catch on in restaurants up and down the country.
This from Bloomberg
Labour lawmaker Chris Ruane also raised Cameron’s schooling during today’s session. “The economy will be a right old Eton Mess” if the Conservatives win, he told Parliament, referring to the school’s strawberry, meringue and cream dessert, served since the 19th century.
“47 42. Yes maybe - but if price goes down too far then confidence could precipitate another bailout. You could always pay minimum wage and see how the bank performs..”
It could hardly do worse.
41 - When you say “the English”, what do you mean by that? The idea that we are one homogenous mass is pretty extraordinary to this Englishman, who is capable of hearing a Scot say the word “toff” without thinking that said Scot is referring to all English people.
It is a frequent claim of yours that PBers know vry little about Scotland. Clearly you have a similar problem with England!
By the way, I should like to make it clear that if there are any vacancies to sit on the RBS board at a salary of a few hundred thousand, I would be prepared, if asked, to put personal considerations aside and do my duty, even if bonus payments had to be deferred for a couple of years. Of course, I have no experience whatsoever of banking, but presumably that would be seen as an advantage in this case.
37
I was referring to the middle of England, oddly enough. Or to break it down, where most people are English and there a lot of them.
I went to a minor public school and have nothing whatsoever against Etonians. Daft uniform though.
41. I think there is some truth in that Stuart - it does matter that this line of argument (if it can be called that) is coming from a non-English person. At the very least it makes it sound phonier, and could indeed be construed as being a thinly-veiled ethnic reference.
FTPT - 192.Oh I think that Brown made a huge mistake with the quote ‘playing fields of Eton’. Not only did come across as extremely personal and class based, but he would have done better to note the much more subtle and clever barb that Howard directed towards Blair a few years ago. Howard highlighted his own schooling, Brown on the other hand seemed to be attacking the famous public school in England to score personal political points. What completely stupid thing to do, and from a Scottish Labour PM as well.
Now having seen the behaviour of the Labour backbenches today, and news from NickP’s little marginals get together. You don’t have to wonder how they ended up with Gordon unelected, or why they have kept him in place for the next GE.
58 After Fred the Shred you would need a nick-name.
“Dick the Stick” perhaps?
“Indeed, you explicitly admitted in a press conference last year that:
‘Spain is not a member of the G20’ (16 October 2008)”
Ahahahahahahaha!
Every Brown “victory” is always pyrrhic..
Its nice to know the entire world immediately saw through the Tiger Woods story.
Sometimes the public are not stupid and don’t like being treated as such.
The annoying thing is that he carried on trying to treat us as idiots for days.
I think the toff bashing is mainly designed to energise his own activists.
I’m sure it won’t help win over the middle ground much, but the judgment must be that neither will it particularly offend, or even be heard by most voters. A bit of a dog-whistle for Labour canvassers.
Doesn’t do much for the overall tone of political debate, though.
59. Precisely. In which case they should have no difficulty with attacks on an elitest public school that they rationally could have no conceivable hope of ever sending their children to.
Australia, election timing.
“To get a double-dissolution election based on the new bill the government would have to reintroduce it in the budget session in May after the rejection in February. The earliest it could practically hold a climate change election would be August, when the option of a normal House of Representatives and half-Senate election becomes available.”
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/politics/rudds-insincerity-cost-labor-the-ets/story-e6frgczf-1225806355756
“The economy will be a right old Eton Mess” if the Conservatives win, he told Parliament, referring to the school’s strawberry, meringue and cream dessert”
So the economy will be sweet, tasty and fruity? Sounds better then the current situation, which if it had a taste would be that of sh*t…….
And of course with IHT Labour risk coming across as extremely obsessive, boorish and single-issueish. Not unlike the Tories in 2001 with their Save The Pound campaign - Though at least the public was actually sympathetic to saving the pound - Theres no evidence at all that the public like inheritence tax as a concept.
54 - If Labour can get it into people’s heads that the Tories are planning tax giveaways for their very rich backers and cutting services for everyone else, while at the same time telling us that “we are all in this together”, the Tories will find it very hard to counter.
It wasn’t the class warfare that lost Labour Crewe & Nantwich, it was the fact that the electors wanted to give Labour a good kicking. If Labour can mitigate that by painting a picture of a Tory demon - much as the Tories did in 92 with Kinnock & Co - then you can bet your bottom dollar that this is exactly what they will do.
Why does everyone carry on about millionaires?
If you die today with £326k of assets you pay IHT. Is that reasonable?
The point that needs to be driven home is that only millionaires WILL pay IHT under these proposals.
43. “It is worth nothing, by the way, that the Mirror has been going very strong on putting the Tories under the spotlight for the last week or so. From a Labour perspective, it is doing an excellent job and has got Cameron and Co rattled.”
The Mirror has been relentlessly anti Cameron since day one. Very few people who buy the Mirror were ever likely to vote Tory. If the Mirror was still a newspaper of any merit it would apply a similar level of scrutiny to the government, it doesn’t.
We cannot have as our Prime Minister someone who has benefited from the finest education available.
We must instead have some gormless muppet who can barely speak. Alan Johnson would be good.
This rules out a Labour government, however, as all their actual leaders for the last 70-odd years have been either public school toffs, or vicious grammar school b@stards who brutally sentenced all the other kids to secondary moderns.
We must make all schools secondary moderns, and we must comprehensivise the universities and make them all equally bad.
62 - Christina said..
ow having seen the behaviour of the Labour backbenches today, and news from NickP’s little marginals get together. You don’t have to wonder how they ended up with Gordon unelected, or why they have kept him in place for the next GE.
We have that to thank them for. Brown being in place probably turns off more Labour voters than his jibes about Eton will turn off middle England ones.
“If Labour can get it into people’s heads …..the Tories will find it very hard to counter.”
So if Labour win the argument, the Tories will lose the argument. Profound…….
46 Jack W - The point I’m making is that, if Darling is seen to be running the day-to-day affairs of the bank by telling the directors what to do, then he might become in law a Shadow Director. He really, really doesn’t want to risk going down that route:
http://www.walkermorris.co.uk/content.aspx?id=304
Of course you are right about who this does and doesn’t appeal to, which is a sign that the battleground has shifted.
Rather than attempting to prevent a Tory majority, much of Labour’s strategy is the going to be safety first stuff to prevent election annihilation.
On the Scotland v England issue. There is a notable minority who do exercised about England being run by a Scot. I’ve never understood it when it comes to those offices that cover the UK, though I thought it was dangerous for Labour when a Scot was running the NHS in England as SoS. If you are to have a UK then that you have to accept these things. Never been a problem before, so I don’t see why it should be now.
If it does play against Brown then I suspect it will be minor. Maybe it plays better the other way round in Scotland, but I don’t know.
58 Richard N. Get in the queue.
The PB RBS Board :
Chairman - Mike Smithson - The Betting Opportunities !!
Richard Navabi - Sheer greed should be handsomely rewarded.
Roger - Exile Champagne Soci*list always welcome
Jack W - Jacobite Investors secured.
ChristinaD - Token Tory Totty !! Woof woof.
Mark Senior - Coin counting and appraisal.
28.antifrank, I think that the way Brown has had to backtrack from the hype over troop withdrawals from Afghanistan in 2010 was the other most damaging problem for Brown today. James Lansdale brought this up on the Daily Politics, because the journalists asked the PM’s spokesman the same question as Cameron did today.
I wondered at the time if this going to be a dishonest ‘troops home for Christmas’ spin operation all over again.
74 - The Mirror supports the Labour Party and so will cover things in a way that helps Labour. Just as the Sun will cover things from a Tory perspective. What the Mirror have been doing over the last week or so has clearly begun to resonate beyond the newspaper’s readership itself - as this current discussion confirms.
FPT 233. Mike L December 2nd, 2009 at 4:24 pm
“The point that needs to be driven home is that only millionaires WILL pay IHT under these proposals.”
Very true.
When people describe the proposed IHT cut as a “tax cut for millionaires/the super-rich” I can only conclude that they would object to any tax cut whatsoever on some similarly bogus grounds.
That said, I really don’t expect the IHT reduction to happen any time soon.
77 - It’s not about winning an argument though, is it? Its about managing the narrative - hence Dave’s trips to the Arctic and his “cycle rides” to Westminster.
Brown is deliberatly lying. He knows Spain isn’t a member of the G20 and said so him self in this press conference.
http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page17206
“If there is, let’s say, a G20 meeting, and Spain is not a member of the G20, I think, and I have said to President Bush that Spain should be represented at this meeting.” Gordon Brown, Thursday 16 October 2008,Prime Minister and Proven Liar
No-one likes a hater.
There’s an art to the political insult. Above all, it must be funny. Then the blood is drawn entirely from the victim.
Gordon doesn’t do funny. He only does nasty. He seems really to dislike people who aren’t like him. It seems personal. Since, by definition, most people aren’t like him (we are all different), the issue is whether people LIKE him.
They don’t. And nasty personal attacks make him even less likeable.
So, yes, it’s a fail.
83 - I suspect if you ask those who think this is a non issue which of them is prepared to offer you the same odds on Zac Goldsmith winning Richmond Park that were available last week, you’ll get a resounding silence.
68 - It depends James. I went to a fee-paying school (an ex-Grammer that left the state sector rather than go Comprehensive which the local authority allowed. They paid the fees of any pupil already there until they left so no one was forced out). It was seen as a good school and people aspired to send their children there. I never ran into issues with anyone for having gone there and when it got into the press 18 months ago over a teacher, boy did it motivate people. There might be some traction at the fringes, but if it looks like attacking aspiration it can put off people across all income areas. Aspiration knows no income limits. When listening to the MPs on Mayo (so much more pleasurable than Bacon) the Labour MP sounded very nervous about how it will play out.
79 - Spot on. If labour can avoid being wiped out, they have a vry good chance of being returned to power in 2014 or 15 as the Tories are going to have some horroble decisions to make, before you even begin to factor in the tax cuts for the wealthiest at the expense of everyone else.
“Just as the Sun will cover things from a Tory perspective.”
Only recently of course. Pre-October it covered them from a Labour perspective.
Whoops - we’re supposed to forget that……
86 - While not seekin to compare Brown to Thatcher, I think it’s fair to say that not many people liked her either. Everyone seemed to like John Major though.
Anyone here from Blackburn ? This is a very old bit of verse from Victorian times.
Play up ye bonnie Rover lads
Etonians thought ye were but cads
They found out different did their dads
A playing Blackburn Rovers !
90 - And now it is Tory and, I guess, hoping and praying that it has called the next election result right.
89 ‘before you even begin to factor in the tax cuts for the wealthiest at the expense of everyone else.’
Just like Brown did when he scrapped the 10p tax and stuffed the lowest paid?
92 - Old Etonians was a powerful footbal team in the late 19th century. Blackburn was one of the first working class professional clubs and presumably gave the OEs a beating at some stage.
*Betting Updates*
1) In case it has not been noted already, Paddy Power have paid out on their November Poll market.
The winning band was Labour deficit of 6 to 10 points, which I believe was favorite at 4/6 when the market opened. Winning punters can count themselves lucky though. The (in)famous Mori poll put the deficit on exactly 6. One point less and the bold punters who got very large odds on the <6 points band would have cleaned up.
Unlucky, those lads and lasses.
2) Ladbrokes have also paid out on the Welsh Leader of the Labour Party election. Again, the hot favorite came in.
Don’t think it was the most active of markets.
3) Sadly, Hills have yet to pay out on a 2010 election.
Wake up, Sidney - The Magic Sign paid out weeks ago!
“Just like Brown did when he scrapped the 10p tax and stuffed the lowest paid?”
Or the Lib Dems giving the wealthy £10,000 a year tax free……
94 - And look how he suffered for it. The electorate do not like the poorest to take it on the chin for the sake of the richest.
92 - http://www.canvasstorehouse.com/pictures_574808/eton-vs-blackburn-1882-3.html
The Giggs thing looks like a campaign now.
86 – Badsman, “Gordon doesn’t do funny. He only does nasty.”
Good point well made, the ‘Eton’ thing is an irrelevance to most people I would suspect, however these kind of attacks from a PM devoid humour will reinforce the nastiness of Gordon Brown’s basic nature in the electorates eyes.
88 - Marylebone?
It is a shame that Brown couldn’t be bothered to check the briefing on the G20 meetings, some of which he chaired in April.
http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/briefings/snep-05028.pdf
There is no mention of Spain as a full memeber.
One thing that does annoy me about PMQs is the way in which some Labour backbenchers think that they can use it to highlight the role of some unknown charity whose work ties in neatly with Brown’s themes of the week.
94 Interesting point of view that the Tory’s proposals are as damaging as the 10p tax affair.
96 PtP Ladbrokes have also paid out on the Welsh Leader of the Labour Party election. Again, the hot favorite came in.
PP have also paid out. I had a few quid on at Evens, thanks to Henry G for tipping that one a while back.
92. It’s no Eton Rifles.
83. “The Mirror supports the Labour Party and so will cover things in a way that helps Labour. Just as the Sun will cover things from a Tory perspective. What the Mirror have been doing over the last week or so has clearly begun to resonate beyond the newspaper’s readership itself - as this current discussion confirms.”
The Mirror makes the Sun look fair. It is easily the most partisan widely distributed newspaper in the UK. I say this as a reader.
81 Can I be Secretary, Jack? I’m very good at taking things down.
I read the other day that Radio 4 audiences were growing because of the growth in the middle class.
That sounded logical and the scope for Labour to win from the working class must be diminishing each year. Compared to 1979 it would be a significant reduction.
However Labour has driven away significant chunks of its WWC vote and we should view the circa 25% it gets in that light. This is their new level.
To then say and do things that put off the large middle class is of course just plain daft. Tony Blair knew that but our Scottish born PM does not. The more class warfare stuff Brown spouts the smaller will be his vote from the middle class.
107 Sounds like you’ll fit in well in most boardrooms.
101 - If that was for me. I’m from ‘up North…
104 Correction - Oops, I’m getting confused there - that was a bet o Tony Lloyd as the Chairman of the PLP.
‘Mike Russell to get tough on councils over Scottish class sizes’
- Scotland’s new education minister has indicated he intends to get tough on recalcitrant councils to ensure they comply with SNP class size targets
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/6710717/Mike-Russell-to-get-tough-on-councils-over-Scottish-class-sizes.html
98 The difference being that Tory IHT plan would appear to be an aspiration whereas Brown’s copy cat changes and scrapping the 10p tax were a reality.
Oh, Brown…
Yes, he looks confident, but that’s just because he’s in his home territory. The fact that you’re at home whilst fighting the war, means that either
a) you don’t know where the front-line is, or
b) the enemy’s tanks are on your front garden.
Brown can grin all he likes; remember the last time he grinned on YouTube?
104 Yes, I’m sure it was Henry who put us on to that one, Richard. He’s not been around much lately. Hope he’s ok.
103 Wishful spinning on your part Jonathan.
Oddly enough I spent five years at Eton and never encountered Eton mess once. Wikipedia tells me it’s traditionally served at the Eton v Winchester match, so perhaps that’s why.
In any case, it’s a (very slightly) more middle class place than most people realise. My own father left (state) school at 16 and became a post office worker. Later he found himself working in IT, and eventually made some money consulting in rather inhospitable parts of the world.
OT…
Makes our Panda Car Astra’s look even worse…
“Italian police crash Lamborghini supercar”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8388128.stm
118 118?
“Eventually made some money consulting in rather inhospitable parts of the world”
Harrow?
76.Kristin,
81.JackW, you may be a 107 year old Jacobite, but you are still a cheeky boy.
91.SO, if Skynews put it online, I suggest that you watch the Kay Burley vs Paddy Ashdown exchange this afternoon. Paddy was very impressive, and he really nailed the current failings of this government on the issue. And words of praise for Mrs Thatcher who compared much more favourable than Brown, and this, despite disagreeing with her on everything else she ever did politically.
Will the Prime Minister now make an apology to the House for getting his facts wrong at PMQs?
44 For tim, IHT is a tax that *other* people should pay.
12. If class war was appealing, Labour would never have lost an election. Most people don’t resent the upper and upper middle classes, and for Labour to go on about them just reminds them what they dislike about the Labour Party.
is Eton mess similar to soggy biscuits ?
111 - It was for you. I assumd you were from London and I remember Marylebone being given the choice you described and going private. My school, which was the other inner London grammar, went comprehensive.
123 You speak as if the Tories don’t have their own forms of class warfare.
117 - If its all spin, would you like to offer the odds on the Lib Dems taking Richmond Park that were available last week?
I think we can guess you answer.
123 - My guess is that a lot of people will resent tax cuts for the wealthiest as they are being asked to make significant sacrifices. It’s not a class thing, it’s a fairness thing.
Will attacking Etonians win votes?
Simple answer: Do you want an education system as good as the best money can buy? Or just the current crap one?
As far as Cameron and PMQs are concerned..
just a simple thought.
What would have been the worst outcome for the Conservatives in 2009.. seeing as there is no GE until 2010?
Answer: Labour replacing GB as Leader with a better candidate.
Outcome: has not happened…Gordon is cemented on as Leader..
126 - You mean those dreadful ethnics, public sector workers and welfare scroungers that vote Labour? Tory hypocrisy - surely not.
129 - Are the Tories promising everyone an Eton education? If so, they get my vote.
123 - Sean Fear you make an interesting point. Odly there always seems to be more anger directed against new money than old. If you remember the Yuppie attacks for the 80s, then the bankers are still there (and for good reason this time). It didn’t do anything for Labour then. In fact the biggest problems for the Tories in the 1990s was that the aspirational middle class had felt under threat with the White Wednesday debacle. I remember Neil Hamilton saying on the Tory!Tory!Tory! series that they wanted through increased home ownership to increase what people had to “Conserve”. Well they did and when people felt that under threat they turned on Major.
On Maggie/Brown, the issue was that Maggie was loathed and disliked but she was respected by many many people who voted for her. Major was liked but was not respected. The problem for Brown is that he is neither liked nor particularly respected. That is a toxic combination.
posted on Order Order
Gordon seems to think that Spain is a member of the G20. It isn’t, but Brown will not admit that. So I thought we ought to try to bring reality into line with Gordon, since Gordon will not come into line with reality.
See the following petition on the No 10 Website:
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Spain-G20/
I was surprised to see such a harsh assessment of Obama’s Afghanistan speech published in none other than the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/dec/02/barack-obama-afghanistan-taliban
There seems to be some skepticism that the Taliban can be rooted out of its bases throughout Afghanistan and Pakistan, and the Afghan governmental and military infrastructure made to turn on a dime and gear up for self-sufficiency, all within one year’s time from peak surge to pullout implementation. The fact that Karzai knows we’re threatening to leave starting on a date certain is supposed to spur him to action, but that presumes he will take the threat seriously and further that he is inclined to take the action we hope for. Additionally, the Taliban and other associated forces know just as well as Karzai does that we’re threatening to leave only one year after we gear up to make our one last push (Battle of the Bulge redux?), so presumably they will be at least as motivated as Karzai to seek to take advantage of this information.
Obama needs immediate positive results in Afghanistan so that he will be able to both claim success and show serious withdrawal implementation in time to avoid major problems with his base, not to mention the general electorate, during the early stages of the 2012 election cycle… all of which helps to explain the hasty buildup in the new year followed by an equally hasty withdrawal schedule.
In a way, this huge let-down for the anti-war left, which has been making self-deluding excuses for years now as the Democrats have repeatedly failed to live up to their 2006 and 2008 promises for a pullout (although Obama himself was more careful on this issue than most of the rest of his party), makes Obamacare all the more imperative. Obama and the congressional Dems simply must show their base something to keep them from becoming totally disillusioned as we head toward the 2010 mid-terms. For now, the once-enthusiastic liberals who propelled Obama to the White House can justifiably complain that one year of Obama has delivered little more than war escalation, which is quite ironic since it was opposition to war that initially helped to catalyze the Democratic takeover.
One other note: I had mentioned early this year that Obama was taking a huge gamble that the economy would fix itself as he decided to spend the year working on healthcare while the economy went ignored. It didn’t fix itself, and now his whole party is paying a mighty price for their perceived neglect. Now he’s taking another huge risk: that seemingly improbable results will be achieved in Afghanistan in a very short time, allowing him to claim victory and leave on the eve of the 2012 primaries rather than having to choose between being bogged down in an escalating war or the cut-and-run route. If he is lucky, it will all work out somehow. If he is not, he will be confronted with an even worse mess just as he’s restarting the “Hope and Change” Express for 2012.
120 Jonathan -
It wasn’t quite that bad, only Saudi Arabia.
121 - As I have said before, the only downside to the Tories not winning the next election is that Brown will still be PM.
127 Make a bet with you tim? No thanks. I prefer to do business with bookmakers.
129. Completely agree - it is Brown’s unpopularity which would mean the difference between a Tory victory and a hung parliament. 14%+ Tory leads and regular PMQ ‘victories’ would significantly increase the chance of Brown being replaced.
Being about 10% ahead is the best place the Tories can be until spring, when it becomes too late for Labour to get a new leader.
People have underestimated Cameron before - do they really think he is just sitting there right now saying “why is it all going wrong?”.
128 The wealthy, like most people, will see their tax bills rise over the coming years, and their entitlements from the State reduced.
126 Not to anything like the same extent.
“To enhance and embellish and sweeten
Its image, the posh school in Eton
Is known as a college.
We’re forced to acknowledge
Tradition can never be beaten.”
but, no perceptible effect.
136 - The bookmakers have shifted their odds on Zac, they know its not all spin.
128. “123 - My guess is that a lot of people will resent tax cuts for the wealthiest as they are being asked to make significant sacrifices. It’s not a class thing, it’s a fairness thing.”
On December 9th Labour are going to kick every taxpayer in this country right in the nuts, Labour fairness in practice.
I think the rise of the BNP proves that dread of ethnics is virtually confined to Labour strongholds. The hatred of welfare scroungers is greatest amongst the “workers”. Public sector workers ? I confess to an irritation with the feather bedded BBC.
109. Indeed - Blair’s brilliance at winning elections was because he got the right votes in the right places.
Hence all the endless posts about the biased electoral system - people think the system is biased but it isn’t - it is all about the right votes in the right places.
Blair understood this better than anyone else in Britain. Brown has less understanding of it than anyone else in Britain.
133. S&S - surely no-one really believed that a reheated Clinton administration was going to be anti-war?
Is this a slogan that we will be hearing more of?
At the end of PMQs to the final question, Gordon ended with “Because that is what Labour Governments do”.
You can imagine a realm of tractor stats, investments here and there, personal stories of how the Labour Government saved their hospital/school/cat with that as a tag line holding it together.
Did Gordon let it out too early?
141 - “We’re all in this together”
1410 Tim, last night you said half the bookmakers, which meant half had not…, now you say bookmakers..
140 Come on tim. You must have an answer to this.
If you think the entire motivation for the IHT cut is his personal benefit, tim, why exactly did Cameron announce it at all? And why did Labour instantly copy it?
Here’s another. Who would make a better PM?
- someone who’s had the best education the UK can offer
- a muppet.
Hmm?
Not hard, is it?
143. “Hence all the endless posts about the biased electoral system - people think the system is biased but it isn’t - it is all about the right votes in the right places.”
I think that’s precisely what people mean by ‘biased’. Is it too much to hope that, in an alleged democracy, no vote should be more equal than others?
When considering which constituencies where a class war may win or lose votes for Labour lets bear in mind Edinburgh South West and Edinburgh South have a high proportion of parents who send their children to private schools and have/ aspire to £1 million houses. Brown’s tactics could be harmful to Darling’s chances at the GE!
“Because that is what Labour governments do”. I don’t think even this shower would be stupid enough to go with that one.
Well if Brown and Labour want to be portrayed as anit aspiration, anti success, jealous, class envy etc etc then thats fine by me as a Tory of very humble origins. Just wait until the PBR when the middle classes realise that under Labour as soon as they are succesful the State will tax them for it.Its just this sort of attitude which Blair weaned Labour away from and which brought them 3 election victories.Brown won a battle at PMQ’s today but carrying on like that he will lose the War.
145. I’m sure many people have less flattering concepts of ‘what Labour governments do’.
147 - You don’t bet do you, thats obvious, compare the two points I made.
152. Bankrupt the country ?
145 Verulamius: If so, could backfire:
“Bankrupting the country. Because that is what Labour Governments do.”
“Sending sick men for unfair trial abroad. Because that is what Labour Governments do.”
“Allowing the French to walk all over us in Europe. Because that is what Labour Governments do.”
“Getting bogged down in unwinnable wars. Because that is what Labour Governments do.”
“Increasing the gap between rich and poor. Because that is what Labour Governments do.”
“Allowing uncontrolled immigration. Because that is what Labour Governments do.”
“Arresting innocent opposition MPs. Because that is what Labour Governments do.”
138 You’re simply blind to the prejudices of your own party.
BTW Just caught up PMQs. Brown was really rather good. Quite different. Good stuff. More please.
140 Fine TIMBOT. I’d still prefer to bet with them. BTW I’m slightly puzzled as to why you’re channeling ‘Get Goldsmith’ in my direction - I’ve not made any comment on his predicament. Lay off the internet onanism; it’s addling your brain.
‘Could Brown’s toff-bashing quip turn-off middle England?’
Without a doubt. Simple note to Labour:
Brown as tearful, wretched figure hounded by The Sun, and Cameron as corrupt - Works.
Brown as smug, swaggering bully boy making barbs about where his opponents went to school - Doesn’t Work.
I didn’t see PMQs today, but it sounds worrying for Labour. They had a nice, simple method of fightback going, but it appears that the reckless Brown can’t help himself and all the good work of the last few weeks might be going to waste. I’m also detecting a careless swagger amongst the Left at large: the supposedly sensible and non-partisan Will Straw was yesterday forced into a humiliating apology to Guido Fawkes after he, Straw, bungled some economic statistics in an attempted put-down. If I were a Tory I’d be delighted at this current mood amongst Labourites.
153
No I dont and you know I dont, but last night you were flying a kite, that was obvious too.
137
People have underestimated Cameron before - do they really think he is just sitting there right now saying “why is it all going wrong?”
From what I have seen, I think he’s been taking it easy to ensure Gordon is cemented in as Leader… and planning to peak next May.
Timing is everything and peaking too early - (as the actress said to the Bishop) - is often very frustrating and ultimately self defeating.
This is a a marathon and not a mile race.
113.In other words, still trying to pass the buck to local councils on this issue. Be careful, they might bite back, and hard, due to the demands of other SNP policies on free school meals for all and the dramatic drop in teacher numbers overall.
With three kids going through state education up here right now, I think that the latter is the biggest concern of all. I think that the SNP should put their money where their mouth is on this, go on and take education out of council control altogether. And then lets see how easy it is for the Scottish government to find the funding for their promises, take the responsibility for this.
159 - Last night I said half the bookies had gone odds on the Lib Dems in Richmond Park
Today I said all of them have moved their prices since last week, indeed some have now taken their markets down.
Both are true, because the idea that this issue doesn’t matter is fatuous.
Targetting Zac for a tax cut may make sense to you, but you’re in a dwindling minority.
144- It is more a problem of the chickens finally coming home to roost. Unless problems solve themselves, they eventually can’t be avoided. Since the Dems are in complete control of Washington, it unavoidably falls to them to address these problems. This is a case of where the Dems fanned anti-war sentiment for years and to great political benefit while Bush was president, but now that they are forced to make a serious decision, they are put on the spot. Their base will not forgive them for this anytime soon. The fact that most congressional Dems are apparently likely to vote against Obama on his request for surge funding shows the level of the crisis this causes within the Democratic Party.
152 Leave the country with more uemployment than they inherited.
“Because that is what Labour Governments do”.
158 That some impressive spinnage there Stark. In your world, if Labour do well/bad its always good news for Cameron. I suspect if the world was hit by a meteorite you would be busy articulating the plus points for the Tories. You’re not alone or the worse offender it has to be said.
What is surprising is that you (and others) actually want to churn out this tribe. Your party is still highly likely to win the GE by a big margin you know. In the light of that, stiff upper lips and a sporting “well done” are called for on the rare occasions when Labour has a good day. You look worried, when I doubt you really should be.
That said Labour are having more good days of late. So you may be right.
So after last week Tory balls up, usual post-PMQ’s activity has resumed i.e #10 Press Office running around clearing up after Gordo drops a big smelly one on their plate. I bet they love Wednesday afternoons down in the Bunker, busiest day of the week!
When Labour start cheering its usually because Gordon has done something they don’t forsee the consequences of - bit like when they allowed him to become leader.
160 I’m not sure if its deliberate (rather cruel to play Brown and the Labour Party like a game fish, letting loose the line now so the fish thinks its free, then reeling it in slowly as it tires, surely no Old Etonian could behave so) but if Gordon is in place in 6 weeks time then “Gordon, 5 more years” is ready for use in the election.
‘The fact that most congressional Dems are apparently likely to vote against Obama on his request for surge funding shows the level of the crisis this causes within the Democratic Party’
That’s very interesting S&S, but is a Congressional defeat actually likely - and would it actually stop the troops being sent?
160 “From what I have seen, I think he’s been taking it easy to ensure Gordon is cemented in as Leader… and planning to peak next May.”
But that’s just bollocks isn’t it? It doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny. Cameron was certainly trying hard to today and was very proud of his pathfinder school quote the other week, until he was pulled up on his “facts”.
May have been referenced already, but on “Yesterday in Parliament” on Today, there was a clip of Johnson getting very snippy about having been partronised by rich Tories over the Gary McKinnon extradition. It sounded really unworthy of him - made him look a very small person, having lost the argument he was reduced to lobbing about class-warrior nonsense.
But maybe, just maybe, Johnson is a very small person… Certainly not PM material. PM’s wouldn’t stoop to… Oh. Right. Of course…
165 - Jonathan. I think what Stark is getting at is that sometimes you just leave ideas hanging in the air and let them gain their own traction. If anyone looks obsessed about an issue, people turn off with a “heard it all before”. I think this is actually a problem that both Brown & Cameron could/are suffering from. Cameron needs to widen the attack to more areas, the debt argument is lost to Labour. If Brown just bangs on and on and on about the same issue the public will have made their mind up.
As another aside Mr Lansdale on Daily Politics was saying that the IHT postponement in the PBR may not happen as Labour are worried it might give the Tories cover to withdraw their promise, loosing one of the few lines they feel they have traction with. Which way would you go??
Is history repeating itself? It wasn’t long ago that another plodding politician well passed his sell-buy date made a gaffe about the status of Spain:
http://tinyurl.com/3ogpb2
Chancellor puts self in very very difficult position as regards RBS. . Directors may be forced by law to resign en masse over bonuses.[Peston]
Hmmm
EU finance ministers agree new European regulation deal
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8391354.stm
Devil/detail I think. I suspect Britain has been screwed.
Gordo’s other great success of the day…
European Union finance ministers overcame a clash between the U.K. and France to reach an agreement on overhauling financial supervision for the bloc.
…
“It seems like a loss for the U.K. but there’s still a big debate to be had about the consequences of calling an emergency,” Simon Gleeson, financial regulatory specialist at Clifford Chance LLP in London, said in a telephone interview today. “To the extent this means something, I think it is a loss for the U.K.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=apVA2VFpBGpY
The attacks on Brown have gone too far and many are totally OTT. That Sun letter story was probably a step too far for most people. The Tories need to be careful attacking him here on.
172 Stark Dawning
John McCain is on Newsnight tonight (if he doesn’t flunk out again at the last minute).
I saw Camerons performance on PMQ’s, just.
Whatever people say about Browns lies and evasions, he outperformed Cameron in parliament today.
Indeed our Dave looked sloppy and out of sorts, except for Afghanistan the questions were repeats that were well fielded by Brown.
Our Dave was outclassed today and needs to pull his sock’s up if he want’s to be a major prsence.
173 - Pure brinkmanship. I suspect Darling will cave in but he shouldn’t. The “legal advice” is bogus in my opinion - you can get legal advice to say nearly anything you like - ref. Iraq.
Good, seems to be indicating a better chance of a hung parliament. This will frighten the markets and force the UK to go begging to the IMF, then we can implement the austerity cuts required to reverse the socialist country we now face.
If either party gets a majority, they wont have the balls to implement the cuts necessary and we will just drift for years or worse print even more money. Better to take the medicine early!
I wonder if the whole IHT issue really plays differently in London, and the South East, to the rest of the country. In the former, I don’t think it’s seen as a rich person’s tax, but is it seen that way elswhere?
I know, from having written hundreds of wills, for people living in North London, that people who aren’t wealthy do fret about IHT, sometimes unnecessarily.
Years ago, a commission examining education had a tour of Eton and its system of schooling. “This is what all schools should be like” - said a Labour member of the commission. It happens to be just about the best education available, and it is only envy that condemns it, as I am sure Blair would tell you, as he also went to Eton(Scottish version). I wonder why the winner of three elections for Labour did not attract the same ridiculous attention?
A bit of bullying in the air tonight.
170: I watched Johnson’s performance in Parliament on the extradition. Just my feeling, but he didn’t come over too well. The criticism of him came from all sides - almost non-partisan.
70 - amusing point re Eton mess. The economy is in a Fettes mess at the moment.
On topic - Eton is a school with an unmatched record of public service, from the Duke of Wellington to George Orwell, and a proud tradition of intellectual excellence. Quite why anybody would hold it against someone that he went there has always baffled me, and I think most right-thinking people in this country. There is plenty for which to attack Cameron, but his schooling isn’t one of those things - especially from a party just led by Tony Blair, who went to a school sometimes known as the Scotch Eton.
Oops.
Gordon Brown got his gloves off in PMQs today, calling David Cameron a smoothie whose tax policies were dreamt up “on the playing fields of Eton”.
No doubt he meant to evoke an effete, privileged, clubbish brotherhood, all straight bats and floppy fringes; but the Duke of Wellington’s much over-quoted remark - if he ever made it - seems to have referred to something a lot more thuggish.
http://timesonline.typepad.com/timesarchive/2009/12/gordon-brown-the-duke-of-wellington-and-the-playing-fields-of-eton.html
Nick Robinson: Why’s Gordon smiling?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2009/12/whys_gordon_smi.html
OT For you betters here, an interesting article on congressional seats prospects for next year’s mid-terms:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/12/02/_rothenbergs_dangerous_dozen_house_seats_for_2010_99366.html
165: ‘Your party is still highly likely to win the GE by a big margin you know.’
My party? If you mean the Tories I’ve only ever voted for them fitfully and not at all since they abandoned their opposition to the minimum wage. I actually speak as a friend of the Labour Party. I want to see it live on - albeit purged of its anti-capitalist and anti-individualist dogma. However, it needs to tread very carefully if it is to avoid annihilation (never mind a General Election defeat). I’ve seen worrying signs today that it’s veering off on the wrong course - yet again!
‘The attacks on Brown have gone too far and many are totally OTT. That Sun letter story was probably a step too far for most people.’
I ptresume you are arguing that for political rather than moral reasons since he is been the biggest bully in your party, for the most part attacking his own people.
Going back to the Burnham story, apparently Unite are intending to throw their weight behind Ed Balls…
http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2009/12/andy-burnhams-leadership-potential/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ft%2Fwestminster+%28Westminster+Blog%29
If a boy ends up having a good education, even though purchased by his parents, then good luck to him.
The sad fact is that, in this country there is no specific educative process for government - look at Jackie Smith who finally admitted the task was way above her, even though that was obvious to everyone (except Hattie and the Sisterhood).
How can a career as a teacher, postman, even small businessman prepare candidates for high office?
So, we offer no training for government, what is the best alternative? Well Eton, with it’s long list of exceptional inividuals who held the reigns of power in the past, looks as good as we can get.
How about an Eton School of Government for all potential candidates? Privately funded of course . . .
I was revolted when brown said it. Looking again at the silly little face he was pulling at the time I am even more annoyed.
Again, I grew up on a council estate and this sickens me.
I will as already stated be voting tory next time to gert rid of this shower, can non members volunteer their time to help the conservative party because count me in.
The IHT thing is shameless positioning and I will repost my reply to Sandy on previous thread again.
“233 - no Sandy that really isnt true and you know it.
This is what annoys me, the sheer dishonesty of the positioning going on.
Tell me why should a friend of mine who cleans houses and at one stage school toilets lose a chunk of her inheritance in this way.
Her husband has lost his job and the inheritance they did get has gone trying to keep them afloat.
Despite Labour announcements re helping people keep their houses they expect to lose their house next year.
It just feels like punishing someone for doing the right thing in their life and working hard to pass something on to their kids
by Floater December 2nd, 2009 at 5:27 pm”
193 - Not a good line Sally when the highest paid Conservative employee in Camerons circle is a proven bully
190. At the risk of being Malcomesque, when Gordon sulks its good for the Tories and when Gordon sdmiles its good for the Tories [perhaps even better].
188 - “Eton is a school with an unmatched record of public service, from the Duke of Wellington to George Orwell”
…and from Jonathan Aitken to Simon Mann
Seriously, the criticism of old Etonians, of whom I know and like several as well as disliking several others, is they are by definition from very well off backgrounds and often have correspondingly limited understanding of the financial constraints affecting middle class let alone substantially less well off people.
Should that bar them from office? No. Are many Labour attacks OTT? Yes. But it isn’t utterly without foundation and it is a bit of a problem if too large an elite is drawn from too small a pool which lacks in one rather important ingredient.
A lot of sensible analysis from Southam Observer this evening.
43/123. I think people misunderstand the standing of class in Britain today. Class *identification* is as strong in Britain as it has ever been; 100% - no doubt. The middle classes, from all political backgrounds, tend to be aware of their class and disparaging about “chavs” and “council estates”. Class identifiers are regularly discussed informally and ‘house-talk’ often references living at the “good” end of town (middle class) and not the “rough” end of town (working class).
This cuts right across party lines. My left-wing friends – Liberal Democrat and Labour voters – are amongst those who are aware of it the most.
On the flip side, although my accent is barely noticed by middle-class friends of mine, some of my working class colleagues from work often chuckle at it and say it is “posh”. Slightly more flatteringly, some of the ladies say I “speak very nicely”. None of this suggests people cannot perceive class – they can.
In other words; class consciousness is a strong as ever. What *is* different now - in England at least – is that people feel they are free to move up and down the class ladder and it’s no longer inflexible in the way it once way.
This is why Labour’s class messages do not resonate. People are aware of their class but do also feel that their life is in their control and within their ability to change.
Rhetoric aiming to suggest that this isn’t possible and that people are stuck in the classes they’re born in just doesn’t chime anymore. The swing voters in particular don’t believe it and the rest just ignore or laugh at it.
It’s a dead duck. Labour can only make it work if they paint Cameron’s team as purely upper-class and *literally* only interested in enrichening themselves – citing evidence –but I think that’s an incredibly hard circle to square.
I’m pretty relaxed about it because I know how emotional and heated the Labour party get about class so I’m confident if they play that card they’ll just turn people off.
72. Absolutely they will do that. In fact, it is Labours only credible strategy. Where I differ is that I think Cameron will respond to that strategy faster and more flexibly than Labour can and so its effect will be minimal.
92. Many people disliked Thatcher but they also respected her. Brown is neither liked nor respected - a very difficult package to sell.
130. You are referencing a client state. And groups which don’t directly correspond to class.
So that comparison doesn’t wash.
194 SthLondon Nick
Not a surprise with Whelan in charge (remember, he was copied into the smeargate emails whilst funding LabourList).
One of the key Liberal bloggers has left the Lib Dem list.
“That’s it. They broke me.” Charlotte Gore
http://charlottegore.com/2009/12/01/thats-it-they-broke-me.html
Sad that a real libertarian has left.
196 It’s still a very good line since most people don’t know who Coulson is - or care. Zilch name recognition.
Gordon on the other hand is the product you have chosen to ’sell’.
The basket [no pun indended] in which you have put all your eggs.
184. A lot of truth in that Sean.
163. Christina, Totally agree, it would be a good move, also time that the number of councils was reduced as well, crazy that we have 32 sets of administrators for such a small country. Hopefully SNP will be brave and get on with it.
194.”apparently Unite are intending to throw their weight behind Ed Balls…”
SthLondon Nick, thanks for that, the smoke is clearing. A powerful endorsement for Ed Balls, and having Brown’s other little helper running their spin operation won’t hurt either.
Sir Norfolk - “But it isn’t utterly without foundation and it is a bit of a problem if too large an elite is drawn from too small a pool which lacks in one rather important ingredient.”
Certainly it’s a problem, but the problem is with the other schools in the country, not with Eton, Winchester, St. Paul’s, etc. If they offered education in its broadest sense as good as the elite English schools or their counterparts overseas, we would not be having this conversation, and indeed many public schools would go out of business - as was slowly happening before the Socialists destroyed the grammar schools.
Right - off for the night.
Interesting thread though. I’ll check in later to see how the debate progressed!
204.Malcolmg, we agree on both issues.
Hmm, still mulling the idea that UNITE are going to back Ed Balls in a leadership contest, and with Charlie Whelan in the back ground too.
You have to wonder about the increasing personal animosity between Balls and Cameron over the last couple of weeks.
30. interesting point you raise
of Labour’s 350 MPs does anybody know how many, if any, have served for our county in the Armed Forces?
196 tim - Not a good line when the head of the government task force for women in business “found guilty of bullying her workers”:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6939894.ece
184 - I’m sure thats true, there’s bound to be more concern about IHT in areas where house prices are high.
But I doubt even in those areas, that the majority view supports aiming your tax cuts at those who are inheriting between £650,000 and £2 Million.
And I think the Lib Dems know that.
171- runnymede, Obama will have to pass his troop surge bill on the strength of GOP votes, and I’m sure enough centrist Dems will go along to give him a majority. But while this may allow most congressional Dems to stay consistent in their anti-war voting records, it puts them on a completely different page from their leader. This will cause much disillusionment in the Democratic base and will serve to dilute Democratic voter enthusiasm in 2010 and possibly beyond.
FPT 211 Herbert Proper Snr
I am busy researching “mindset of the 1930’s”
I guess Gordon had Ramsay MacDonald, his party’s first ever Labour Prime Minister, in mind: in particular his second term of office beginning in 1929.
Like Brown, MacDonald faced a global recession which started in America. In deciding how to manage the economy, MacDonald’s cabinet was split: only this time the Prime Minister favoured public spending cuts whereas his Chancellor advocated deficit spending. Unable to resolve the internal party splits, and at the invitation of the King, MacDonald formed a National Government in coalition with the Tories and some but not all Liberals and Labour MPs. In response, the Labour Party sacked MacDonald and appointed a new Leader.
MacDonald then put the cuts vs. spending argument to the electorate. He called an election which resulted in the National Coalition being returned with 556 of the 694 seats in the HoC. The Tories achieved 55% of the votes, with 473 seats (210 gains) and Labour fell to 52 seats on a 30.8% share.
I rather like the idea of Cameron having a 1930’s mindset myself.
S&S at 134: the Guardian is essentially anti-war and will always be dubious about troop surges and the like - think of it as a UK MoveOn.
On topic: I don’t think anyone is going to notice much about PMQ wording one way or the other, but the media have got bored with ‘the Tories are going to win overwhelmingly’ and everyone is responding to the change in mood. Gordon’s vigorous PMQ has certainly cheered the troops here and reinforced the view that Cameron is not some sort of invincible superhero, and I’d guess that will feed into media commentaries. I was talking to a senior broadcaster earlier who said spontaneously that he thought the change in mood was partly down to local Tory councils being militantly Thatcherite (he specifically mentioned Notts so word is getting around), undermining the cuddly image. See e.g.
http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/news/Tory-quits-party-county-budget-cuts/article-1535967-detail/article.html
None of that means the polls will suddenly swing dramatically, but we’ve probably said goodbye to 17% leads (except for Angus Reid, which with the best will in the world seems to me to need an analysis review to see why it differs from everyone else).
Southam Observer many of the people who hated Thatcher admired her skills and determination. The few people who admire Brown pity him for his.
114 - and (a recurring theme here) he lied about the affects of it.
Whats is it about Labour and lies?
208 Hmmm…it may surprise you, Christina, to learn that I gave the Tory PPC for Morley & Outwood, Antony Calvert, a tenner for his Get Balls Out fund, when he turned up at the PB Drinks get-together recently.
Had I known Unite were behind Balls, I’d have given him twenty.
208. ChristinaD. I think you are onto something there. It is entirely possible the Tories are attacking Balls so that if (when?) he takes over he is already discredited. I do think “Ed Balls, 5 more years” would be worse for Labour than “Gordo, 5 more years” but YMMV.
125 - did I go to the same school as you sotham?
Not in Battersea was it?
199. Agree that SO has posted well today. Lots of Tories on here do not seem to get the fact that ordinary people, those that think £10,000 is a fortune never mind a million get a bit hacked off when they see the sort of stuff the Tories are coming out with recently.
Most people do not have a problem with people being rich as long as they see themselves being treated fairly. Currently Cameron’s team seems to consist of mega rich people , grasping to get as much as they can themselves whilst telling ordinary people that they will need to tighten their belts and accept less. People do not like to see their wealth being flouted whilst their noses are rubbed in the dirt. Cameron needs to be careful or he could blow it yet, the Tory vote is very soft.
204. I understand from my sources that one of the problems Hyslop had is she was busy berating councils for not doing enough, when 6 of them were under SNP control. Taking control away from the councils sidesteps that issue.
another brownie…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8390901.stm
210 - She sound vile, as does Coulson, I’d sack them both.
213 - If he has a 1930’s mindset I can sell him some nice Art Deco lampbases to replace those chavvy Elephant Lamp things.
A little bit of mischief to remind Gordon that he made a mistake.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Spain-G20/
A pettition to admit Spain into the G20.
Are the Tories promising everyone an Eton education? If so, they get my vote.
by Southam Observer December 2nd, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Cameron is on record as saying he wants everyone to have as good an education as he had. That is his performance measure.
So you will be voting Tory then.
217 A Labour loyalist to the end EH PtP??
Bet he gets more from Labour than the Tories.
Some of us wouldn’t mind extending Mr Balls tenure in the PLP.
Tee hee hee
http://order-order.com/2009/12/02/downing-street-petitioned-to-admit-spain-into-g20/
209. Eric Joyce?
214 Nick P - I was talking to a senior broadcaster earlier who said spontaneously that he thought the change in mood was partly down to local Tory councils being militantly Thatcherite
Forgive me for being cynical, Nick, but I suspect ’senior broadcaster’ probably means one of those well-known figures who blame everything on Thatcher, and who so infest our media with their distortions of history.
As for ‘Tory councils being militantly Thatcherite’, they are trying desperately to offer better value for money, thank goodness. The days of massive wasteful spending have got to come to an end, as Darling will (if he is allowed to tell the truth) admit in a few days’ time.
223 - What would you sack either of them for? Their sins were committed for previous employers. Or does New Labour just decide who it dislikes and treat them accordingly, regardless of whether there is any good reason?
222. Hmmm
Has Cameron turned his apology to his advantage?
Every time Brown gets it wrong they will call for one on the basis Cameron has. Though no one will remember or care what it was over.
216 - Aitken, Archer, Porter … all Labour born and bred.
191- TimT, that assessment by Stu Rothenberg regarding the 2010 elections is definitely worth a read, but such seat-specific evaluations aren’t of very much value at this early stage of the election process; much more valuable are the rare articles from people like Charlie Cook giving a highly-informed bird’s eye view of how things are shaping up for 2010 (if you want to become well-informed about upcoming American elections very quickly, read anything you can find written by Charlie Cook).
221. Scott, Big prize will be to give Purcell and Labour one in the eye, the amount of money wasted in Glasgow over the years for no improvement is obscene. It is time for somebody to change it.
206 - I think it’s ludicrous to compare elite public schools with state ones in that direct a way. Public schools have a highly selective intake, parents who are broadly supportive in every way of academic achievement, and they are funded in a way that is simply impossible for state schools.
You are comparing a Rolls Royce with a hatchback. What you really want is the best damned hatchback you can get for the money you’re willing to spend, but you don’t get that looking longingly at the Roller. Do we get that? No in my view. Though I happen to believe based on friends and relations who have worked in the sector for some time, that we’ve moved from a Lada to a rather substandard Subaru Impreza - better but the money could have been better spent.
Here here Mike. An awful lot of people must look at their local comprehensive and aspire to send their children to a better school. By bashing Eton, Brown bashes not just Etonians but all these people too. It’s ugly politics but crucially it ignores the very reason Blair won 3 terms - as you quite rightly say.
Anyway, how dare the PM publicly ridicule a private organisation, Eton, going about its business and in fact doing a very good job of it.
224 - I am sure we all want a lot of things. Promising to do something, of course, is a very different matter. But seriously, if the Tories were promising an Eton standard education for all kids I would certainly vote for them. However, the problem with an Eton education is that it loses its cache if everyone has one.
229 - Would they have had to disclose the bullying charges at interview?
218.ScottP, I wondered about this last week at PMQ’s, I thought then that the story is wider than some Pathfinder scheme in the Education department. And I think there is a very personal angle to it as well which makes me wonder what is going on off the public radar?
219 - No, in NW5
238 - That was where Cameron came over worst of all.
A man who wants to be PM getting down to the level of Ed Balls and managing to sound bitter at the same was time terribly demeaning.
221.ScottP, I would like to see the SNP administration remove education from council control right now and find the funding themselves. The SNP are writing education policy cheques those councils cannot pay, especially with the council tax freeze. So to then blame the councils for failure to deliver is a very big cop out.
236.
‘cache’?
Spare me. DC has become a hero of the Old Etonians because he is the first to refused to apologise.
Most people who send their kids to private school are now aware that they will be penalised for it at some point. In fact it begins before they leave school. They make a assessment about whether the education is worth it.
241. “A man who wants to be PM getting down to the level of Ed Balls and managing to sound bitter at the same was time terribly demeaning.”
Oh dear, like Brown never sounds bitter. Tim your criticism of the Tories would carry more weight if occasionally you came up with something where Labour is not at least as bad. Almost everything you churn out shows an almost total blindness to far worse behaviour by the government.
236 Southam seriously, if the Tories were promising an Eton standard education for all kids I would certainly vote for them.
No, you wouldn’t, because Gove is trying to do everything that is humanly possible to make available to all as many of the advantages of high-quality education as possible, and as far as I know you’re not planning to vote Tory.
It is very likely, in my view, that institutions such as Eton will set up schools under Gove’s scheme - it would fit in very well with their charitable foundations. Over time, those new schools will have a dramatic effect on the standard of state education ‘for the many, not the few’, and you can bet that they will be well-run.
But of course such reality doesn’t fit the prejudices people have, so they ignore it.
217.Peter, well done.
So, tim, you do despise Ed Balls. And you think Brown is crap. So who don’t you despise in the Labour government ? I only ask as you seem to be expending a great deal of time and energy to support a group of people you do not like.
223 ‘… to replace those chavvy Elephant Lamp things.’
TIMBOT, it’s interesting what your comment gives away with regard to your own snobbishness. You seem to be very obsessed with class, and perceived taste. Keeping up appearances?
Just watched PMQs. Brown didn’t come across all that well, refusing to answer questions. It just looked like he was playing to the people behind him. As Mike says above it will shore up the Labour vote, it won’t win any converts.
243. Christina, I agree with your first point, however the problem is they are using the education money for other things, covering up the inefficiency and gross waste of money in local government.
233. malcolm. While I would not be unhappy to see Purcell get a (metaphorical) smack, I am mildly curious how the East/West SNP/Labour bunfight will develop.
In the context of global recession, questions of national identity and self expression, foreign conflict and a flu pandemic, it is perhaps unedifying that an important political debate about the the future prosperity on the nation (via educated kids) comes down to a parochial dispute about whether you live 40 miles East or West.
All politics is local?
239 - That depends on what questions were asked. It’s not automatic and it would be an unusual question to ask, in my experience.
If there is no evidence of misbehaviour in the current role, they should stay in post. It is normal to believe in rehabilitating offenders rather than ostracising them.
Police are spending no more time on the beat despite the Government’s attempts to tackle bureaucracy, the Home Office adviser charged with reducing red tape in the force said today.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6940989.ece
252. Scott , we all are , Labour have had a west coast( Glasgow ) hegemony for 50 years and they are now down to that as all they really have left , their power anywhere else has been diluted. A lot will hinge on what happens in the west, labour will push the divide as much as they can even though Glasgow has a significantly higher spend per person than anywhere else in the country, yet is still has shocking areas of poverty.
214 NP. You may be right about neo-Thatcherite councils. The Tories most publicised move in my area since regaining power from NOC is to close 3 popular public toilets in a short-sited cost-cutting move, just ahead of the Christmas rush in the main part of town. Although agreement has been reached with a pub and M & S to make their facilities available it hasn’t been well received locally.
While the amounts involved are relatively small in the scheme of things, it is surprising how much anger can be generated over this while items taking far bigger slices of council tax eg education are overlooked. These type of measures that disproportionately affect pensioners, who are generally more inclined to vote, cause more political damage for the party implementing them than they’re worth.
This needs a wider audience.
This seems to have slipped under the radar (and no wonder given that it is buried in an obscure document on the BBC website, sans press release), but it’s worth noting.
The BBC Trust has decided that it is not offensive to compare Peter Mandelson to “manure”.
When the Dark Lord returned to Government last year, Nick Robinson said on the BBC Ten O’Clock News that Mandelson “attracted controversy like manure attracts flies”.
Someone (no, not Mandelson, a BBC source tells me) complained that this breached BBC guidelines. But the Trust has now rejected the complaint.
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/12/mandelson-manure.html
214 NPMP - “(except for Angus Reid, which with the best will in the world seems to me to need an analysis review to see why it differs from everyone else).”
Maybe it’s right? It wouldn’t be in their interest to change their methodology simply to get in line; in fact that would lack integrity. They’ll be judged by the result as will all the others and we shall see soon enough.
Morale and polls -
http://page.politicshome.com/uk/proof_at_last_mps_morale_is_all_about_the_polls.html
I agree, it is terribly common.
Dave’s mates all go round to her indoors’ ma’s shop and buy Elephant Lamps, then Dave votes a big tax cut for the chavvy lamps shop owner when she passes it to her indoors and hey presto, Elephantgate.
257 I think “manure” should complain to the BBC Trust about being compared to Peter Mandelson.
257. Would the BBC allow the joke about the difference between Milord Mandleson and a bucket of sh!t?
246 - I think the problem isn’t that it doesn’t fit our prejudices. It is that it doesn’t fit with experience of 1980s and 90s education policy back in the day when today’s senior Tories were rolling straight out of their top-notch private schools and into the early stages of their political careers.
I’m less cynical than some on this. I think, in fact, senior Tories have moved position and will seek to govern from where they claim they will, in the same way New Labour did despite its birth from a more militant party in the early 1980s.
But I’m damned if I’ll be accused of criticising Tory education policy from prejudice rather than bitter experience.
So, SO, as Cameron’s target is to provide an education as good as his Etonian one, are you going to stick to what you said and vote Tory?
I am sure you would not dream of doing a Brownian flip and tell me it had to be free places in Eton itself.
You know, this is not a constitution so we will not offer the referendum we promised sort of manoeuvre.
263 Sir Norfolk - Come off it, you know perfectly well what a disaster state education has become over the past thirty years or so. It is true that Maggie failed to get a grip on it - it was one of the battles she chose not to fight, which in retrospect was a mistake, but it has got worse and worse under Labour.
As Gove has pointed out, 15 per cent of the school population are eligible for free school meals, and thus represent the less well off. Of those, the number of boys who got three As at A level was just 75. A single private school - Eton - had nearly three times that number of boys getting three As. You can argue about motivation and parental background etc etc as much as you like, but even allowing for all that, this statistic should fill anyone even remotely associated with Labour with complete shame.
It is an unmitigated disaster. Gove has a credible plan to do something about it - and, most damningly of all, the Tories seem to be the only party that actually cares about this problem.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23733078-academic-rigour-is-the-answer—not-an-a-level-in-dance.do
245 - I am not sure Dave would get very far in rguing there is no cache in an Eton education. It would be interesting to watch him try though.
239 - Did Brown disclose his?
I mean, what sort of PM makes a switchboard operator cry?
apparantly the same sort that lobs Nokias at people and smashes printers.
227 Sally C - You are founder member of the Tenner To Keep Balls In group?
241 - ah ok, cheers for answering
242 - what about the man who is pm ?
I still shudder at that picture of him sitting in the car after shafting Blair
Daily Mail - Brown mocks Cameron with ‘playing fields of Eton’ jibe in PMQs clash
All of us talking about this issue and I’ve yet to see it on a news bulletin.
The Goldsmith case merited a small mention but thats it.
Goldsmith can’t just swim ashore and be a credible Tory candidate – Oakeshott
Wed, 02 Dec 2009
“How on earth could he sit in Parliament and pass laws for our people when he hasn’t paid British taxes,” said the Liberal Democrat Treasury Spokesperson.
Commenting on the news that Zac Goldsmith is to give up his non – dom status, Lord (Matthew) Oakeshott said:
“Zac Goldsmith can’t swim ashore for tax purposes just months before an election and be a credible Tory candidate.
“How on earth could he sit in Parliament and pass laws for our people when he hasn’t paid British taxes on all his worldwide income and capital?
“It is hard to see how he could represent families struggling in the recession when he’s been given his mansions on a silver platter by Cayman Islands trusts.”
Lib Dems running with the Zacster.
Link to 272
http://www.libdems.org.uk/press_releases_detail.aspx?title=Goldsmith_can’t_just_swim_ashore_and_be_a_credible_Tory_candidate_–_Oakeshott&pPK=fcabde29-204e-491f-97fa-b018e75c02e0
If Labour intends to wage a GE campaign on bigotry and stealing from the dead, good luck to them with that. It’s, err, courageous.
There are far too many noble or extremely rich Labour people for this to be an effective jibe.
OK most of them probably didn’t go to Eton, but many of them have a great deal more money than a lot of Eton old boys.
Silly move Brown, and just the kind of daft thing that we have come to expect from you.
236 - Actually sotham admitted to me yesterday that the only downside of a Labour win is Brown, I took that to mean he loaths the tories (his posts do tend to reinforce this).
It matters not what the tories say or do, to him they are tories end of.
266 cache? CACHET.
Obviously no one will be impressed by an attack on the public school Mr Cameron senior chose to send young David to. Where there might be unease is if it seems Cameron is promoting people from the same or similar background. In this case it starts to look like a cult and even middle England are suspicious of cults.
SO I am a little sad that when I demonstrate that Cameron has pledged to meet your requirement you are not reaffirming your part of your own pledge: to vote Tory.
249 EdP
those chavvy Elephant Lamps
tim has a sharp eye but lacks context. Nonetheless he makes me smile with his observations.
He once mistook Dave and Sam’s over-Aga bottle rack as a wine cellar rather than a store for domain bottled Balsamic Vinegar and single-estate extra Virgin olive oil.
The “Elephant Lamp” is undoubtedly a class indicator, but unless it can now be bought in cost-engineered form from the Argos Catalogue, I doubt it is “chavvy”. More 1980s Homes and Garden I fear.
What the Camerons really have is a pair of Andrea Brustulon blackamoor candle sconces. However, these prize sculptures are kept away from the camera’s lens just his children will be moved from the danger of a public school education.
Such are the sacrifices that have to be made by an Etonian seeking power.
Conservatives call on Brown to apologise for Spain/G20 claim
http://page.politicshome.com/uk/conservatives_call_on_brown_to_apologise_for_spain_g20_claim.html
Robert Key standing down in safe seat
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/8391330.stm
260 for the nth time tim - the rich don’t pay inheritance tax. It is the unprepared who do. Assuming “er indoor’s ma” is well advised (as seems likely) she will take care to ensure that all her funds are passed on to whoever she chooses well in advance of her demise and free of tax under all parties proposals.
So your central premise - that the IHT changes are likely to be beneficial to Cameron and Osborne - falls.
234- S and S
Agreed that it’s much too early to have a good view.
But I would argue that GOP efforts to recruit good candidates against some Reps basically unopposed the last time show that they are trying to widen the playing field, and that they feel more confident at this stage than Democrats.
For example, in Tennessee (currently 5 Dem 4 GOP) the Commerce and Insurance Commissioner Paula Flowers 9 supported by national Dem strategist strategists) withdrew from the race for the 3rd district open seat.
Opposingly, John Tanner (8th district)has announced his retirement after 22 years in the House, as he was facing for the first time in years a well-funded opponent (Stephen Fincher).
In the 6th district, 26 years incumbent and unopposed in 2008 will apparently be challenged this time by a well-funded opponent, state Sen. Jim Tracy.
This is a collection of anecdotes at his point, but it will be interesting to see if it becomes a trend.
282 - You are alleging that the Cameron and Osborne families run tax avoidance schemes as legal as Zacs.
I look forward to them being asked the question.
273.Great news, it will go down well with the 1 million, oops, 2 million mansion tax in Richmond. Going personal will back fire on the Libdems, and it will align them nicely with a similar campaign from Labour.
The class war does not seem to be as successful as Brown thought it would be going by the comments on the newspaper sites, even the usual ones who are anti-Conservative are saying it is envy politics and the sign of a tired rattled Labour government who need to be kicked out if this is all they have to offer.
284 What question?
Interviewer: Tell me how much Inheritance Tax will be paid when your father dies?
DC/GO: That’s a question you would have to ask my father. His taxes are a matter for him
Next question
284 - Is the bunker is now targetting the families of Conservative MPs?
284 (continued) - but let’s agree that your response shows that you know b*gger all about IHT. Which begs the question why you insist on bringing it up on every thread. Couldn’t we have someone who actually understands the tax do that on your behalf?
284 You are alleging that the Cameron and Osborne families run tax avoidance schemes
You make it sound as if there’s something wrong with tax avoidance..
284 tim, do you know what your point is anymore? You seem to be twisting yourself into knots now. Spinning someone else’s posts doesn’t help.
Anyone can choose to set up tax avoidance schemes should they wish to do so; there are plenty of legal ways of setting such schemes up.
284 tim - Maybe they are advised by Bircham, Dyson Bell, like your hero:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/dec/01/mystery-tony-blair-finances
290 - “Only the little people pay taxes”
Good line.
C4 News has some exclusive on Tory lawnorder/prison policy reverse.
Oh good, Grayling/Duncan time.
Meanwhile - Google, eBay, Yahoo and Facebook are not pleased with Lord Mandelson of no fixed title…
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2009-12/02/internet-giants-come-out-against-digital-economy-bill.aspx
293 tim, no offence chum, but you’re looking like an utter twit now. Keep it up!
282. “the rich don’t pay inheritance tax.”
I don’t think this is true. How do they get out of it? - short of transferring inter vivos and surviving seven years - not by any means to everyone’s taste - there are no obvious loopholes to exploit that I know of. You can transfer works of art to the nation in lieu of death duties but they have to be of drop dead quality - think da Vinci cartoons - and therefore hugely valuable in themselves. There are strong anecdotals floating around about British families which have been very very rich for a very very long time getting wiped out by deaths in unexpectedly quick succession. If there is an easy way round all this, what is it?
Toddled to the shops earlier for some milk and who should I meet on the way? My gardener-cum-handyman, who, I might add, does the occasional spot of work for Eton College. ‘Did you hear that rotten bloke Brown?’ he asked. ‘Been a Labour man all me life but am having second thoughts if targeting the young gentlemen of Eton is his game.’ I expressed sympathy but said there was little I could about it. If a working class man is expressing disquiet, what are the populace at large make of Brown’s envy and spite? Brown is truly coming across as a rotter!
297 - Do you live in an Edwardian costume drama?
Labour (and any other party stupid enough to do this) are playing with fire if they bring up upbringing, education and social background as an election issue. a) voters will not really care except hard core socialists who would not vote Conservative in a million years b) some of Labour’s own MPs are vulnerable on this. For example the Chancellor was educated at the private Loretto and is the Great-Nephew of a former Lord Provost of Edinburgh and Conservative MP.
A long while since the Tory posters on here have been so rattled. I think this is a bigger indicator of where we are than any analysis of Cameron’s poor PMQ’s. PB.Com has always been a good barometer of where the polls are going.
There is no way cameron will go into the election with this IHT policy. It’ll be halfed to £500,000. Whats more, dont be surprised if they copy the lib dems and raise the tax threshold to £10,000. All they have done is smoke brown out and forced him to plan a ge campaign on an issue the tories will kill dead when the time is right.
Remember the eu referendum from labour in 2005? referendum on the pound in 2001? It killed the tory policy in one and made them appear stupid when they kept going on about it.
294 Interestingly there is also this. Unintended consequences and all that:
http://www.techradar.com/news/internet/why-it-s-the-end-for-public-wi-fi-655058
If Gordo wants to answer economic questions by talking about public schools, maybe he should defer to the Chancellor…
“drawn up ‘on the playing fields of Eton’. ” Better than the back of a fag packet?
My, what a warm and fuzzy thread this is
Whilst Gordon plays little class games. the city got screwed.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article6940999.ece
The worst Prime Minister ever.
296 Constan Treader Have you heard of a trust? (There’s a large part of the tax code devoted to them, and they’ve been around for centuries, but the list of avoidance measures in your reply suggests you haven’t.)
I notice that the http://www.g20.org/ site which is proudly © HM Treasury doesn’t mention Spain at all on the site
300. Er, no it isn’t. PB lives in its own little bubble where everything is blown up to have far more significance than it actually deserves.
297. Are you sure you didn’t ask Mellors as he doffed his cap what he was doing listening to the radio at 12 o’clock?
298. LOL
Of course a lot of the political reporters and most of the Guardian went to public school….
How to win friends and alienate people…..
Could somebody name another country where having a good education would be seen as a disadvantage. I cannot think of one. It really is silly i cant believe people fall for it.
Jack (accounting is for other people) Straw admits our Dear Leader made a mistake
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6711586/Jack-Straw-Gordon-Brown-should-not-have-ducked-election-that-never-was.html
Whilst Gordon plays little boy class games, £30bn/year have been wasted in schools
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article6939885.ece
The worst Prime Minister ever.
300 O/T Roger, add ‘44 Inch chest’ to the list. Quirky. Plenty of 4 letter expletives. The cast are great but particular mention has to be made of John Hurt and Ian McShane, and a cracking cameo appearance by Stephen Berkoff. I wished the film had been longer - the characters were so interesting, I wanted to see more of them.
Come to think of it, I now realise that Labour have missed a trick. Instead of going on about the IHT changes benefiting Cameron’s and Osborne’s friends, they should point out that the Blair family stand to benefit:
Blair is estimated to be in the process of receiving up to £14m, making him one of Britain’s wealthiest ex-prime ministers. This includes a £4.6m memoirs deal with Random House.
He is also receiving a series of US fees from the Washington Speakers Bureau for making speeches estimated to include a £600,000 signing-on fee; consultancies with the US bank, JP Morgan and with Swiss insurers Zurich Financial Services; and commercial consultancy deals through his private firm, Tony Blair Associates, with regimes in Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates among others.
The growth in Blair’s personal wealth was illustrated in May 2008, when he agreed to pay £5.75m for the late actor John Gielgud’s Buckinghamshire residence, described as “a small stately home”.
This was in addition to the £4.45m paid earlier for a London home in Connaught Square, together with an adjoining mews house.
Clobbering that lot would motivate the core vote.
300 Roger
Whilst I have rarely agreed with your posts, I have always treated them with respect. That is until I learnt from OGH that you attended Millfield School.
In my day, it was considered very suspect. The Headmaster claimed to levitate and to need only two hours sleep a day: feats attained exclusively through yogic meditation.
Can one trust a school that permits you to keep a horse on its property?
Whilst Gordon plays little boy class games, no improvement in police productivity in fact it is getting worse.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6940989.ece
The Worst Prime Minister ever.
309: ‘…as he doffed his cap…’
He wasn’t wearing a cap but one of those hard, plasticky builders helmet things, and he certainly didn’t doff it. I see Channel 4 are reporting that one of Brown’s henchmen has said that Dave’s Eton background is ‘a killer’ and Labour are going to run with it till the General Election. A terrible misjudgement, but at least we know where we stand.
“Jack Straw: Gordon Brown should not have ducked election that never was”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6711586/Jack-Straw-Gordon-Brown-should-not-have-ducked-election-that-never-was.html
306. Yes, I have heard of lots of different sorts of trust. Which particular flavour of trust in your view brings exemption from IHT? My understanding is that when you set up the trust that is a disposal attracting IHT like any other disposal, and subsequent beneficiaries of the trust are likely to be deemed owners of the capital for IHT purposes. Do you know different?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6712079/Satellite-preachers-to-be-banned-under-Tories.html
Interesting.
Labour, in particular can I point out the last part
“But Mr Grayling also used the speech in America to draw a line between the Tories and the Bush administration in the US in dealing with detainees.
He told his audience: “We are determined that it is right to stand up for the rule of law. We must be careful not to employ methods that undermine it.
“Reports of prisoner abuse and of extraordinary rendition flights leading to the torture of terrorist suspects results in a loss of goodwill towards America and its allies.”
I realise to some that its far more important to point out which school someone went to rather than you know, doing the decent thing….. But it is Labour we are talking about
“whiter than white”
From 321,
“The police service is a 24-hour, seven-day-a-week organisation and has to be able to respond flexibly to any event or crime at any time.”
Hmm, thats why in my fairly sizeble town from the beginning of next year I will only be speak to a police officer for non-999 during office hours, Mon-Fri, 9 to 4.30pm, no Bank holidays or weekends.
320 No doubt the “Eton Toff” stuff has been through focus groups and as a result Labour (or rather Brown, Balls, Whelan, McGuire and perhaps Campbell & Mandelson?) have decided that class war is the way to undermine Cameron and Osborne.
320. “I see Channel 4 are reporting that one of Brown’s henchmen has said that Dave’s Eton background is ‘a killer’ and Labour are going to run with it till the General Election. A terrible misjudgement, but at least we know where we stand.”
They are so clueless it beggars belief. Let’s see a list of the schools, universities, incomes and wealth of Labour party MPs and candidates. They bloody well won’t look like a workers party that is for sure. Most people have a good idea what the Tories are like, they may not be aware of how similar the Labour party are.
320.”I see Channel 4 are reporting that one of Brown’s henchmen has said that Dave’s Eton background is ‘a killer’ and Labour are going to run with it till the General Election.”
You have to laugh though, not like we didn’t see that one coming over the last couple few years. There was ‘Dave the Chameleon’ in his little school uniform, and the toffs who turned out to be toffs running around the C&N by election. Apparently its all going to finally work this time because Brown caused this big economic bust I presume?
Whilst Gordon plays little boy class games his master has deployed another flawed strategy that will cost British Lives.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamescorum/100018548/three-big-flaws-in-obamas-plan-for-afghanistan/
320 - A terrible misjudgement, but at least we know where we stand.
Quite. Any tories in tonight, can I (do) volunteer (work) for them whilst not being a member?
317 - I like the bit about him being one of Britain’s richest Ex-Prime Ministers.
There are only three of them after all.
327 ‘Apparently its all going to finally work this time because Brown caused this big economic bust I presume?’
Well, with class obsessed clueless twonks like tim running this wizard strategy, it must be a winner.
In other important developments, it seems Tiger is - allegedly - paying his wife to stay with him and they are in ‘intense’ marriage counselling…
http://www.suntimes.com/entertainment/zwecker/1916410,zwecker-tiger-woods-marriage-elin-prenup-120209.article
329 - You certainly can.
318 - It seems a little unfair to single out individuals as representative of a systematic failure in a particular education sector.
Unless you think Margaret Thatcher had a Grayling premonition and tried to destroy his grammar school before he got out the other side.
And what would you do after judging the Wiggin family, bomb Eton?
283- Chris, I am definitely following developments such as the Tennessee congressional races just as closely as you are. But, as you indicate, it is the extent to which they are consistent, or inconsistent, with the bigger picture that is interesting today. Recruitment trends and retirements are often late-breaking indicators of the overall political atmosphere, as potential candidates from the rising party realize they suddenly have a golden opportunity and jump in, while candidates from the declining party see the writing on the wall and opt to sit this one out. I’d say there is a good chance that you’ll see a fair-sized number of primarily Democratic retirements from the House in the next few months, but not as many as in ‘94. At this stage, I’m still betting on about a 25 seat GOP gain in the House (I’ve been saying this since last year), but I’m more optimistic on the high side of that number than I was before.
But if there is a wave of Democratic retirements in the House, it won’t be merely because they expect to lose. I imagine many of them would win, including the Tennessee incumbents, if they put in a major effort. However, another element is probably that it is just becoming less fun for them (particularly the Blue Dogs) as the narrative turns so negative for them and their party. They just say “Enough!” and head for the exits (this also explains a lot of the GOP retirements in 2006 and 2008, while Democratic retirements have been minimal for many years).
Do the political parties (OK the Tories) have any organized proxy voting setup for those of us with overseas postal votes?
325 I have spoken to my gardener and cleaner and they are certain to vote Conservative, they are very deferential to the landed elite.
They are scandalized that inheritance tax may have to be paid.
The equality bill has passed 338 - 8.
So thats the best Labour can come up with - a grubby nasty personalised campaign against somebody because of the school, he went to.
335- S and S
Agreed. The picture will anyway be much clearer in March/April.
Regarding the West Point speech, I thought the delivery was so awfully passionless and boring, it was probably intentional.
I watched it on CBS and was very surprised by the largely negative comments afterwards, mainly from the left. Only Katie Couric and Mc Cain seemed to support the policy…
I checked on the Daily Kos afterwards and the mood was beyond funeral. Huffington Post and Atlantic Online were more upbeat.
Another interesting little read
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6711154/Have-police-shut-down-any-extremist-websites.html
“Baroness Neville-Jones, the Shadow security Minister said: “Terrorists are getting better at using technology to attract recruits, but Labour are still playing catch-up.
“First we heard that they had let extremists use community centres to reach British audiences by video-link, then we heard that the government had failed to shut down any extremist websites.
“Now, months later, we’re told that they’re still not keeping proper records. With our national security at stake, Labour really must get a grip.””
The following bit is typical Labour
“A spokesman for the Home Office said: “The preferred route for removing potentially unlawful terrorist content is through informal contact between the police and the Internet Service Provider.
“This has proved effective so far and police are happy with the impact of this approach.
“As a result, it has not yet been necessary to use the formal powers given under the Terrorism Act 2006 to close any websites.”
But hang on a minute
” Lord West, the Security Minister, told the House of Lords that so far, “the police have not found it necessary to use” their powers under the act.
He said in some cases they had received co-operation from internet service providers but added: “It would be wrong to say that everyone is as co-operative, because they are not.”
Lord West added that he could not say when police had shut down sites without using the powers because they had not recorded “as well as they should exactly when they have shut down a site.”
Lord West said the government’s Office for Security and Counter-Terrorism was now talking in talks with the Association of Chief Police Officers to compile the figures and improve record keeping.”
317. Richard Nabavi - IMO Blair ought to be charged with war crimes. Will Chilcott deliver and get him indicted? Somehow I doubt it.
318. Seth. “In my day, it was considered very suspect”
In my day too!
316. EdP. Many thanks. I just wish they’d put some of them out now. It’s a long while since there’s been such a dearth of good films. I’ll certainly see them when they open to the public! Have you seen Paranormal Activity yet?
33 - Speaking as an Old Tonbridgian I would say that Brown’s attack is a vote loser and fails to recognise the efforts my old school and others are making to expand means-tested bursaries and share facilities and build links with state schools. Unfortunately, DC does not help himself defeat the elitist argument by failing to support the reintroduction of Assisted Places!
329. Register on http://www.myconservatives.com, some campaign will snap you up.
Ten years ago Tony Blair said “we’re all middle class now”.
I wonder if Gordon Brown would agree with that today.
On the Toff thing - I’m sure it won’t do much except limit the scale of Labour’s defeat, but i think we should be a little wary of constantly citing Crewe & Nantwich.
From memory, that was a particularly crass campaign, firstly because the target of the attacks was one of the biggest local employers in the area, very well respected, whose family business had been built up from scratch, and secondly because Labour tried to make a big thing of the Tories driving around in Bentleys. The Headquarters of Bentley being, er, Crewe.
334 tim
And what would you do after judging the Wiggin family, bomb Eton?
You misunderstand the purpose of public schools. It is neither to produce an academic excellence nor a political elite, though both may be welcome by-products. It is to produce a corpus of old boys that share the same values. Eton is truly egalitarian: it welcomes the dim second son as much as the aspiring scholar or weighty rower. It moulds them all. Exam targets are no barrier: if needed there will always be a dedicated teacher to lend a hand.
A Wiggins is as much an OE as a Cameron or a Pincent. No preference will be made by the school for one over another.
No need for bombs: they should remain targetted on Slough.
215. Another of Nick Palmer’s increasingly unimpressive posts there. First a Roger-style anecdote, then a Senioresque local non-story, and then a risible swipe at Angus Reid polls. Dear oh dear.
345 - doing it now, many thanks
Conservative Prison policy that fell apart is only the one no one believed in the first place about how much Victorian Jails could be sold for.
But it does seem they’re moving to a more sensible policy based on rehabilitation and community sentences.
Jonathan Aitken makes a lot of sense these days.
Looking at him this could be the solution for the Eton twit problem.
A years Jail instead of a gap year as soon as they leave.
Alan Clark, Tredinnick etc would have benefited, and Wiggin could do woodwork.
A TV Sitcom, “Kedgeree” perhaps, could be based on their exploits.
340- I don’t follow the liberal commentary sites, but there is obviously a difference in attitude from one to the other. Maybe I should begin to patronize them to see where the divisions are, which would doubtless become more entertaining as the elections approach!
One of the problems with the West Point speech was that the nature of the audience was such that he couldn’t expect constant thunderous applause and approval. I wonder if he and his staff had considered that beforehand? There was a huge stretch there with no applause at all, and the applause that was there was fairly tepid. That made me wonder whether he would have been better off doing it as a broadcast from the Oval Office.
As for the post-speech mood, it is no surprise that true anti-war and pacifist leftists would be heartbroken. I’m sure many of them had convinced themselves during the campaign that Obama didn’t really mean what he was saying about being dedicated to the mission in Afghanistan, imagining that it was just a bunch of unpleasant but necessary white lies designed to win over centrists. Now it is no longer possible to remain in denial, for those naive idealists.
The problem with Rentoul’s analysis is that the evidence from what people said in focus groups from 1994 onwards suggests that middle class people in Middle England are more likely to support Labour against the Tories when Labour attacks the privileged:
http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/11/23/how-new-labour-ignored-the-focus-groups/
Key quote from Stan Greenberg, who ran the focus groups:
“When Labour had lost its lead in 2004 over the Tories, I sat with Blair in his study in Chequers and dwelled on a single graph that illustrated the power of our message: “In a modern and uncertain world, hardworking people, not just the few, have the opportunity to make a better life.” It was 15 points stronger with the added reference to the privileged. But he felt it smacked of old and not the new politics that had opened Labour up to so many former Tories, though the data did not support that conclusion.”
*
There is a separate point, which is that rich people don’t like attacks on the privileged, and since rich people own newspapers and give (or decide not to give) large donations to political parties, this can cause harm to Labour’s electoral prospects.
Corrections
[348] Pincent = Pinsent and [280] Brustulon = Brustolon
129
‘Outcome: has not happened…Gordon is cemented on as Leader.’
Agree,excellent news for the Tories.
The problem in Brown using this as an electoral strategy is that Cameron is pretty likeable, Brown is not. During the blanket tv coverage of the GE campaign, personal attacks by Brown will drive people away from him (if they haven’t been already) and towards the more personable Cameron.
348 - Don’t mention bombs and schools in Slough, although you could twin them in a “Yeah but, no but Hizb-ut’Eton” pathfinder social cohesion experiment.
348 Seth
A bit wide of the mark re the dim second son. When I was there the Common Entrance requirement was considered to be pretty steep. In my first term the boy who came last in the end-of-term exams (they ranked the entire year from 1-250; I presume they still do) was in my house. He’s now a barrister.
whilst gordon was playing his little class war. Alistair was busily cowering away from the true debt situation and creating a Japanese style lost decade.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/spectator/thisweek/5571478/part_6/prepare-for-a-japanesestyle-lost-decade.thtml
The Worst Prime Minister Ever.
357 - Well I don’t think there’s any danger of Prince Harry becoming a barrister.
359, now there’s a sitcom idea, alex
350. Floater - would you accept if they asked for help in Richmond Park?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6710922/Police-should-patrol-alone-to-save-money.html
Would that be with guns or without? I just cant keep up anymore.
I dont envy the police going into certain areas on their own, ambulance staff / doctors and firemen sometimes require escorts.
353 - I’m sure Camerons focus groups say the same.
His attempted de poshing of the Cabinet in January, the double barrrelled names stuff, the Zac embarrasment etc.
But I still think it has to be based around the priviliged Shadow Cabinet prioritising the privileged for tax cuts, rather than schools.
Its OK to make everyone laugh at Daves Mates though.
Humour is always the best weapon.
Everyone still remembers the chauffeur and the bike story because they all laughed at it.
361 - Have already volunteered to help closer to home (thanks to a helpful poster earlier).
357 Father Finton Stack
You forget the impact of prep schools. If the parents said their boy was down for Eton, then that is where he tended to go regardless of true academic potential. Common entrance was not an insuperable barrier.
OK, parents were sometimes persuaded that Milton Abbey may be a better choice of school but only in extremis.
As to barristers, I always though it was their bedside manner with clients and solicitors that delivered success. Let the clever ones become judges: the remainder can continue to take tea in chambers for a lifetime.
361 - Now that has given me an idea.
So it’s going to be class war. Now we know. Forget the Duke of Wellington and what he said about Waterloo. At PMQs Gordon Brown made it clear that he wants the next election to be won not on the playing fields of Eton but by attacking them.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6941540.ece
Attacking Etonians is desperate ultra-core vote stuff. Pathetic, sad, wrong.
For that reason I am encouraged. Labour must be seeing awful private polling to sink this low, they must be worried that in fact Cameron’s jibe today is the closest to the truth, and that Morley and Outwood really is looking marginal.
On the cost of state/private education.
Some years ago I lived for a while in the sticks - middle of Wiltshire. The local primary school was under pressure because it was very small - 50 pupils or something like that. One night in the pub, one of the teachers mentioned the amount per pupil that was being spent. The bursar of a nearby private school - very, very expensive - pointed out that at that 50% of that price he would bring the whole thing into his school. You could see him thinking of the potential benefits of adding primary school classes to his domain…. until he pointed out, that of course that wouldn’t be allowed.
Chris Woodhead has managed to setup private schools that charge about what it costs per pupil in the state system….
Gordo has a point. Some public schoolboys are chumps
Alistair Darling loses EU fight over fiscal sovereignty
Alistair Darling on Wednesday made a major concession weakening Britain’s power to block new European Union financial regulators from taking decisions that could result in a bill for the taxpayer.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/6712062/Alistair-Darling-loses-EU-fight-over-fiscal-sovereignty.html
Re point about Japan above
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/6703032/Japan-steps-up-quantitative-easing-to-fight-deflation.html
Interestingly it states
” But Junko Nishioka from RBS called the measures too timid for lasting effect, saying it may take large-scale purchase of state bonds to stem deflation.
That is the slippery slope feared most at the Bank of Japan. “I have no intention of monetising government debt,” said Mr Shirakawa.”
I’m no more of an economist than Gordon Brown, but isn’t that what we are doing? (or have I read that wrong)
352 S&S If you want to read a devastating take on the Obama speech, read Gabor Steingart at Der Spiegel:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,664753,00.html
PS did you notice how many of the servicemen and women looked to be on the brink of sleep during the speech? Fortunately, I was eating Pad Thai at a local noodle restaurant so I was able to give the speech and my delicious food each the attention they deserved…
371. It’s also what the Japanese themselves did in the very recent past.
361. Tim - I am intrigued but is it not for public pb consumption?
363. ‘Humour is always thes best weapon’
That sounds like a retread of Kevin Maguires awful blogpost today. Have you purloined his extensive worldview and insights or do mediocre minds think alike?
http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/maguire/2009/12/mockerys-the-best-brown-policy.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+KevinMaguire+%28Kevin+Maguire+and+Friends%29
369 Dr Raymond Cocteau
You are talking I assume of Marlborough College. A couple of weeks ago there was an interview with the Master of Marlborough on Sky News. He was discussing the school’s plans to open and manage a boarding school in Malaysia.
It seems strange that the country’s leading public schools are free to open schools across the commonwealth but are forbidden from providing services locally.
Time for Gove to step in an change the rules.
374 Goupillon. So Tim will be volunteering for the Conservatives in Richmond Park?
375, 8 comments this far, none supportive.
Undoubtedly a good day for Brown, but one day doesn’t wipe out a double-digit deficit.
348. Seth. “It is to produce a corpus of old boys that share the same values” An astute and well expressed post.
And I think you are right (though in this Millfield was an exception) It’s for this reason that they will know the value of ‘the old school tie’ and why many of those that know its value are likely to resent its abuse
As I said earlier reasonable people wont blame Cameron for going to Eton but any perceived favoritism to those from similar backgrounds is and they’ll be regarded as a clique. Zak hasn’t helped. Let’s see what AC can dream up next.
283, 307 Adam Smith: Again, what sort of trust do the rich establish which results in them “not paying IHT”? You have gone very quiet on this subject. You helpfully point out in 307 that a large portion of the tax code is devoted to trusts. Well, yes. And do you think that this large portion of the tax code is intended to make tax avoidance by use of trusts (a) easier or (b) more difficult?
In the absence of any further comments from you, I think we have established ex silentio that it is complete cobblers that the rich “don’t pay iht”.
297 How do they get out of it? One way, is by owning agricultural property, which is exempt from IHT. That is a perfectly lawful tax avoidance scheme, which tim, for example, takes advantage of.
212 It comes down to whether people consider IHT to be fair. Again, taking London and the South East, I think most people there don’t, but I accept people may feel differently in other parts of the country.
380 The assets that rich people tend to own, such as woods, heritage property, agricultural property, and business property, are mostly exempt from IHT. Country houses are exempt, so long as they’re open to the public some days a year.
380 The assets that rich people tend to own, such as woods, heritage property, agricultural property, and business property, are mostly exempt from IHT. Country houses are exempt, so long as they’re open to the public some days a year.
380 The assets that rich people tend to own, such as woods, heritage property, agricultural property, and business property, are mostly exempt from IHT. Country houses are exempt, so long as they’re open to the public some days a year.
Discounted gift trusts are a good way of saving IHT; so is writing life policies in trust for one’s heirs, rather than having them pay out to the estate. A rich person who is well-advised can ensure that his heirs pay very little IHT.
O/T
Has anyone else noticed that Brown insists on wearing just one tie to destruction. Currently it’s the navy and white striped jobbie, which has been in evidence exclusively for quite some while now. Before that, it was the light maroon version, which he wore for many months.
Extraordinary that someone on his salary does not appear capable of ringing the changes on an item of clothing as relatively basic and inexpensive as a neck tie. It’s equally surprising that his image consultants aren’t attentive to such details in his dress.
Having said that, he is eons behind Dennis Healey in terms of neck attire, who wore the same design of tie (I believe it my have had connections with the trade union with which he was connected) endlessly, year after year, to the exclusion of all others.
381. Yes I know about the farm exclusion. I think I can boast with a certain pride that I was the first to point out the equivocal position in which this placed tim the barley baron. Thing is that for a wide variety of reasons rich chaps like to own a variety of nice expensive stuff, not farmland and nothing but. In a nutshell you can fart about a bit with inter vivos transfers to trusts which potentially exempts any gains in the value of what you transfer even if you don’t last the seven years, but basically if you die you pay iht no matter how clever and well paid your accountants are.
385 Re the Dennis Healey tie, for anyone old enough to remember, that to which I refer is of course the diamond-design ever present one.
Sean Fear
How do they get out of it?
For fungible assets, a post-mortem power-of-attorney over Swiss bank accounts is known to help.
385 PfP
navy and white striped jobbie
Are you sure it is not navy and light blue?
I suspect it is part of Labour’s cross despatch box psyops.
375: ‘That sounds like a retread of Kevin Maguires awful blogpost today.’
If Brown’s tactics are receiving the endorsement of Maguire then that is truly worrying for Labour. I didn’t see PMQs but saw a clip: Brown looked awful - bumptious and snide. I fear today we’ve seen Labour’s fightback go up in smoke. A 12 to 14 point Tory lead in the next batch of opinion polls is certainly on the cards.
359. alex. Very funny! But you make a very good point.
372 I was eating Pad Thai at a local noodle restaurant
That’s un-American
Comments on the Daily Politics site re today’s elitism item with Brian Cox are interesting. Overwhelmingly negative.
379 Roger
people wont blame Cameron for going to Eton but any perceived favoritism to those from similar backgrounds is and they’ll be regarded as a clique. Zak hasn’t helped.
I wonder just how far the “old school tie” persists today. Friends made at university tend to be more persistent through life than school friends. I accept that university friends tend to come from similar backgrounds, but to claim that the diaspora of Old Etonians has the same influence on political advancement as, say, L’École Polytechnique in France is to misread the influences.
I see much greater similarities between Osborne and Cameron than say either of them with Zak Goldsmith. As Scott Fitzgerald said in opening his short story: “Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me.” The risk of Zak being an MP is that he will never need Parliament in the way that other MPs - even the relatively rich - will.
He will definitely win in Richmond Park though. A true local brought up in Ormeley Lodge, his mother’s beautiful house, prominent to everyone that passes through Ham gate into Richmond Park. To the vast majority of Richmond’s constituents - whether admitted or not - Zak will represent their fantasy lifestyle.
I would be surprised though if he stayed the course for a long and successful political career.
Well we know now fairly clearly that labour are going to go for a desperate core vote strategy. Parties that do that are parties that know they are losing in a big way. It is all about desperately trying to keep a tribal group on side because that group have started to have doubts and many people have deserted the ship. Conservatives did this nonsense in the past when they were in a corner. Now they are not and need to think differently. Cameron must talk over this Labour class desperation and talk to the people about the real issues and where he is going to lead a once great country, Britain. If Cameron sticks to a message that resonates with most ordinary people, it won’t matter what desperate class rubbish Brown and Labour come out with, they will look more and more like losers and most people will rumble Labour. Cameron and the Conservatives should be reassured by what labour are doing and know it is the action of desperate losers.
the latest poll in scotland (in percent) has the snp at 34 and labour at 32. over 1000 interviewed.
this is depsite a ferociously negative media led by the bbc, scotsman, record and to a lesser extent the herald and the sun.
the level of coverage on this poll has been close to NIL.
it should be noted that if the snp get to 36 and labour drop to 29 then the seat changes became monumnetal and the snp will have a majority of scottish seats under FPTP.
whether this was brown’s logic, an outcome if the AV vote will be similar to the scottish parliament, whereby even with the most votes the SNP cannot have amajority of seats without 50% plus of the vote, which at this time is very unlikely.
were the snp to get the majority of seats at westminster then the issue of what is reqiuired for independence is different, as the mandate for independence, having the majority of MP’s, has been reached.
it should also be noted in the 70’s that when the snp had over 30% of the vote and “it’s scotland’s oil” was the catchcry they came very close to that tipping point whereby they would have got lots more MP’s.
so as well as doing a back door deal with the libs to stay in power, this would laos limit the snp a slong as there was strong unionist push to transfer votes between unionist parties, ANY party, rather rthan transferring support to the snp. it would not quite work that way, as people are not quite that stupid to be told what to do to that extent, but i think that is labour thinking, at least in scotland at the orange lodge and glasgow labour politburo hq.
labour would only vote AV if a deal with the libs had been sealed and delivered. the libs would hope to be everyone’s inconsequential second or third party and squeeze thru on transferred votes. maybe even up in christina d land?
So is Brown and the whole Labour message, don’t go to a good school,don’t work and most of all don’t try and make a better life for your children?
Stay at the bottom,live off the state and by doing that you will not have to pay any death tax or be branded as some kind of nasty growth that needs getting rid of,shamed and ridiculed?
Great idea.
Over the last decade Labour have churned out a generation that are ill educated,crude,violent and with no knowledge of what they will face in the future.
With this kind of governance Labour should walk back into power sometime during 2041.
Middle England wont like it? I’m not a Labour supporter but I loved it
Cameron is looking more ridiculous by the day!
398 - What right do you have to make such an assumption? I’ve grown up under Labour and I’m now 18 and although I haven’t grown up rich I now feel confident that I will be going to university, I have a great job that pays fairly thanks to the minimum wage and the violence claim is beyond pathetic. Dont listen to people like this, they are completely out of touch and most likely borrow their opinion from the Daily Mail
If Brown bangs on about Tories going to public schools, then middle class voters will take one look at the sink schools their kids have to go to, the good independent school down the road, and they will know whose side Brown is on.
Thank you, Gordon - this should help take another few Labour marginals.