Does Luton matter more than the whole of Scotland?
December 6th, 2009
Are SNP-Labour battles no more than a minor side-show?
Anybody who reads the overnight PB threads might come to the conclusion that the only thing that matters in the coming general election is Scotland. For some reason there are periods in the twilight hours when the site becomes almost a Sassenach-free zone (see note below).
Quite often I’m accused of not taking Scotland seriously enough or I’m taken to task for asserting (post Glenrothes and Glasgow North East) that Labour is doing better in its heartlands north of the border than elsewhere in the UK.
Yet I maintain that the critical issue in the coming months is the number of Tory MPs that will be elected. That, and that alone, will determine whether there’s a majority government or not.
So in that context constituency skirmishes that won’t affect the Tory seat total are essentially a side-show - their outcome will not impact on the big picture.
Unless we are in hung parliament territory the fierce and undoubtedly interesting SNP-LAB or SNP-LD battles won’t affect whether Cameron will enter Number 10. The same applies to LAB-LD fights across Britain.
In the big 32,000 sample PoliticsHome marginals survey in September the projection was that the Tories would have a net gain of just one in Scotland.
Now Luton was a different matter. Both its seats - North and South - were projected as Tory gains. According to Thrasher and Rallings Luton North has a 2005 notional Labour majority of 16.39%, while in Luton South it was 14.71%.
Dave needs to take all the seats with required swings like this if he’s going to get a working majority.
Mike Smithson
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yay !
FPT..
James, it’s all a matter of opinion. AFAIC Christina is an asset to the site, however I notice that almost nightly you seem to cross swords with her regardless of what she has to say. I am sure her local Conservative association feel lucky to have her. BTW have you ever disagreed with any other SNP poster on here? If you have I haven’t seen it. They must be all assets in your eyes then. Well pardon me if I disagree.
Personally I enjoy reading posts from just about all sides of the political spectrum, and it’s no secret that I am a Conservative living in Scotland. Then again I am not tribal, I have friends who vote both Labour and SNP. LOL I even voted SNP tactically and may do so again. Mostly I scroll over posts that get personal, however Christina has been very kind to me during what has been a difficult year for me, she’s ‘finest kind’.
by Kristin December 6th, 2009 at 5:06 am
I can’t wait for Stuart Dickson et al to read that OGH thinks their country matters less than…Luton.
*seeks out hard-hat and bullet-proof dressing-gown*
(*grabs a bag of popcorn*)
3 - me too
That means Scotland certainly means less than Staffordshire, my local county:
Tory targets:
Burton
Tamworth
Stafford
Cannock Chase
Newcastle-under-Lyme
Stoke South
If the only thing you knew was that the Conservatives were going to poll 40% in the UK come the next GE, then the best outcome for them in Scotland would be to win no Seats….and get no votes either except maybe ChristinaD’s and Easterrosses !
This would ensure a thumping Overall Majority. I cannot wait for Robert’s reverse VIPA article to confirm what I already know, which is that the Cons will do well where they need to and that does not include Scotland.
I believe the traditional answer to all PB questions is ‘no’, and - as I’m sure you realised when you posted it - this is no exception!
Mike, it’s principally Stuart that’s criticised you for not taking Scottish politics seriously enough, and I believe it’s primarily been me that’s criticised you for your repeated unproven assertions that Labour are doing significantly better in Scotland than anywhere else. Those issues are (to me at least) wholly separate - I don’t agree with Stuart’s criticism, and I gather from what he said the other day that he doesn’t entirely agree with mine. So there’s no point in conflating the two, although I’m sure it will make for a hearty, no-holds-barred, Jock-bashing thread over the next few hours!
On the particular issue that I keep raising with you, I note that on this occasion you’re not defending your usual theory - merely now implying that it’s not actually a relevant question one way or the other. I hope that’s significant. I’ll simply reiterate the evidence as I see it - the most recent full-scale Scottish Ipsos-Mori poll had Labour down seven points, whereas the most recent UK-wide Ipsos-Mori poll had Labour down just five points. In the European elections, Labour were down 6.9% across the UK, and down 5.6% in Scotland - scarcely a gap of anything like the order you’ve been repeatedly implying. Scottish subsamples of UK-wide polls have been, as you’d expect with such low sample sizes, completely contradictory on this point, and yet those that support the theory of Labour doing disproportionately well in Scotland have been conveniently cherry-picked on this site. Professor John Curtice said on the Glasgow NE by-election programme that Scottish Labour’s share of the vote in recent months has been down by roughly the same amount as Labour’s vote across the UK as a whole. I believe that observation was soundly based and should be taken seriously.
I’m not as bothered by the jibe that Scotland ‘doesn’t matter’ in terms of the electoral arithmetic, but I’ll just repeat my observation from 24 hours ago that it’s quite simply…well, wrong. The polls are now tightening to the point where it’s hardly inconceivable that Labour could be only 4-7 points behind going into polling day, and in that scenario it’s not merely the Tory majority at stake, it’s the question of who will be the largest single party in the Commons. In those circumstances, Scotland would have significance, because if Labour suffered losses to the SNP that would significantly dent their chances of retaining power.
The complaint about ‘night sessions’ here being dominated by discussion of Scotland is especially peculiar, given that this is an essentially open forum, and who comments and on what is entirely self-selecting and signifies literally and precisely nothing. If people from Luton want to come on at 4am and talk about Luton, a small suggestion - why don’t they do so?
2. Kristin, I’m not remotely surprised that you and perhaps a few others will come to the defence of Christina. In other circumstances I might even have done so myself. I find her the most extraordinarily frustrating poster on here, because she’s so friendly at times, and yet at other times she is patronising beyond belief - and, yes, she gets personal, even while criticising others for doing exactly that. I also don’t see how anyone can in good faith deny she’s incredibly slippery in her debating tactics when she knows she’s on weak ground. In the previous thread, it was she that came after me, not the other way round - check and you’ll see. She simply didn’t like it when I was robust in my response, which is a very familiar pattern - well, there it is. She’s not the Queen Mother and I don’t see why I should be expected to act as if she is.
As for whether I’ve criticised other SNP posters, the answer is a categorical yes. I’ve had two major spats with MalcolmG, one over welfare reform. I’ve also differed with Stuart Dickson for being too much of a fundamentalist (and also over continental politics), although admittedly those were friendlier disagreements.
The midpoint of the Spreads implies a very muted performance from the SNP.
It goes like this. LAB+CON+LD= 617 and NI=18. That leaves just 15 Seats for NATS+OTHERS and by my reckoning Plaid Cymru are going to get 5 of those, which leaves just ten Seats for SNP+OTHERS and I award OTHERS 2+ and that leaves the SNP on 8-.
By way of contrast, the bookies give them about 12 Seats so I give them 10+.
Tell me I’m wrong, please !
7. Yes. Labour losing power is a significant event. Scotland might make that outcome inevitable, before the voting pattern in England is settled.
If the number-crunchers decide the game is up for Labour, there could be more of a push to build a pact with the Lib Dems, asking Labour to back Lib Dem in Lib Dem marginals, and vice versa in Labour, and various trades done to stop the Conservatives winning power.
If Labour still think they have a chance to hold power alone, they would tend to run on as they are.
Mike would be right though if Cameron’s lead is unassailable. There would be less incentive to run a Lib Lab pact. Lib/Lab would go into a straight fight for seats as competitors.
Since when did Wikipedia replace a good old-fashioned dictionary? OED, Chambers, Collins… all infinitely superior to Wikipedia when it comes to looking up the etymology and meaning of a word.
And besides, have you not heard of Wiktionary?
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sassenach
Good article Mike. I agree with your point: in terms of whether or not DC becomes PM, Scotland is (almost) irrelevant. There are just so few Scottish seats that the Tories can realistically gain.
However, if we look at UK politics in its wider context (wider than simply the name of the occupant of 10 Downing St come next summer) then surely that fact in itself - that there are just so few Scottish seats that the Tories can realistically gain - is of huge historical significance to the very existence of the British state.
We are now so used to the concept of a largely Tory-free Scotland that we perhaps fail to still see how truly odd this is in an international context.
Scotland and England are the founding member states of a Union which lacks direct international analogies. But just for a moment try to imagine a world where there were no Republicans in Texas, or no Liberals in West Australia, or no Christian Democrats in North Rhine-Westphalia. It would just strike the rest of the world as very, very odd indeed that major constituent members of a federal state lacked representation from a party which has for large chunks of the last 100 years tended to dominate central government.
If Luton becomes Labour-free, and DC becomes PM, then no-one in the international community will bat an eyelid. So what? The UK changes govt and kicks out an incompetent PM. It happens almost every month, all over the planet.
But imagine if this was the 4th Congressional election in a row where the Republican Party returned zero or 1 person to the House of Representative from Texas, and where the Governor was campaigning hard for a Texan independence referendum. Do you not think that perhaps that would be worthy of attention?
Mike, please do not miss the beautiful view of the mighty forest, simply because you are gazing at the pattern of the bark on the tree you are standing beside. I’m sure that Luton is just fascinating, but political connoisseurs must look elsewhere for the stunning panoramas.
12. I agree, Stuart, and there’s an additional point I should have made in my own post. If (and admittedly it’s a very big if) the SNP make a significant breakthrough at the GE, we could look back in future years at the 2010 election as the one that made a major constitutional upheaval on these islands inevitable. The suggestion that Scotland wasn’t going to matter in that election would with hindsight look as risible as any pre-election prediction that Ireland was going to be a “sideshow” in 1918.
By the way, I note that Christina D was propagating an (ahem) “untruth” on last night’s thread: that there was a late swing to the SNP at the May 2007 Scottish Parliament election.
In actual fact there was a late swing away from the SNP in the final part of the campaign! A “swingback” to Jack McConnell’s Labour Party. (Rod’ll love that.)
If you don’t believe me, then please peruse the Holyrood opinion polls leading up to May 2007. One month before polling (3 Apr 07) ICM gave the SNP a 5 point lead over Labour. By 30 April this had narrowed to a 2 point lead. And on polling day of course - 3 May - the SNP won by just 0.7 points!!
Just thought that PB commenters and lurkers really ought to be appraised of the facts. Tis not the first (nor probably the last) occasion on which Christina D’s contributions should be treated with due caution.
Now I am off the stand at the doorway of a local sports facility to collect funds for the kids’ club. I would rather argue the toss with you guys, but a man has certain familial duties that just cannot be avoided. Quelle domage.
14. That’s undoubtedly true, Stuart - that’s why Philip Gould was able to write that hilarious New Statesman article exalting the heroes of the glorious Labour fightback in what was described by someone as “homoerotic terms”!
p://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2007/05/labour-snp-campaign-election
O/T (or maybe actually on topic) what the man on the ground thinks
Gordon Brown snubbed by soldiers’ ‘curtain’ protest
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6945976.ece
NICE ONE KEN!!!
KENNETH CLARKE: Harriet Harman went to George Osborne’s school, Ed Balls went to mine… Sorry Gordon, but the class war is over
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1233499/KENNETH-CLARKE-Harriet-Harman-went-George-Osbornes-school-Ed-Balls-went–Sorry-Gordon-class-war-over.html
Ken also goes on to say
“I went to private school myself, the same one, in fact, as Schools Secretary Ed Balls, Nottingham High School. He attended a few years after me and was a fee-paying pupil, but then he is New Labour. I was an 11-Plus boy, paid for by the State.”
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1233499/KENNETH-CLARKE-Harriet-Harman-went-George-Osbornes-school-Ed-Balls-went–Sorry-Gordon-class-war-over.html#ixzz0YtNNrINF
If Scotland only elects two or three Tory MP’s whilst England and Wales put Prime Minister Cameron into Downing Street, then Scotland will have decided to move away from reality-based governance. It would then be almost perverse not to allow the Scots to have a referendum on what they really do want.
Cameron will have a perfect pretext to allow Scotland to do its own thing. If he fails to take it - out of some romanticised notion of preserving a loveless marriage - then he will not be serving the narrow interests of his party or the wider interests of England and Wales.
Scottish Labour must be somewhat conflicted - hoping that the Tories take a few seats off the LibDems and SNP. Although if Scotland does get some degree of political independence, I suspect that Scottish Labour will rise to fill the new power structure, still happy to blame Tory London for all manner of imagined sleights holding Scotland back. Which will be somewhat harsh on the Nats. Hah!
Given the the result everyone appears to expecting, will the Labour parliamentary party, post the 2010 General Election, have a majority of non English MPs?
On mobile phone now so cannot link and getting 404 Error from Times website again despite inactivating cookies.
Iain Gray is being asked to pay back donations made to his constituency Labour Party by East Lothian Council.
For the election after next, Scotland matters enormously. If the SNP take a lot of seats off Labour next year, Labour will be completely out of the running for 2014/15. If Labour hold their own in Scotland, they will be in with a sporting chance in 2014/15 even if they lose to the Tories this time.
12. No Republicans in Texas? Dear God, that would certainly be a sign of the apocalypse.
I assume that a Tory-free Scotland would only really be an oddity if the SNP triumphed over Labour. Otherwise, wouldn’t the situation revert to the 1980s–British Tories preying on a weakened British Labour?
17,18 So the Tories’ defence is that they are like Ed Balls and Harriet Harman.
Innovative.
Marquee Mark: Labour not conflicted at all! They would just love it if the Tories gained 4 seats from the SNP!
I can assure you that Labour members in Moray BBanff&B angus and Blairgowrie etc will be voting Con.
25 Stuart, the only conflict being that would probably “seal the deal” with Cameron in Downing Street!
Tories voting Labour, Labour voting Tory - just to spite another party they hate even more. It’s a truly weird Alice in Wonderland world, Scottish politics!
If devolution is the price of NEVER having another zanulaba government…I might take that deal. As might many english people, I suspect.
Is devolution now a scottish only issue? Does anyone else care all that much?
It might be nice to know WHY we (everyone) should care. The current state of affairs doesn’t seem to make many people happy (perhaps just less unhappy than separation).
I’m lead to believe that it worked very well for both nations previously, or is that a load of old jellied eels / haggis?
24 Jonathan, are you capable of reading a post without spinning it?
What does “bringing more people into inheritance tax” mean? I can see the political attractiveness of raising the amount paid by those at the top end (if workable) but bringing more people in at the bottom end (by definition not “millionaires”) just seems like straight electoral suicide.
29 It must be a chapter from Browns new book - ‘How to lose votes for Dummies’
It’s interesting that the article then states this -
‘…a deliberate ploy to discomfort Cameron who is committed to lift all but millionaires out of inheritance tax.’
A bit off message for The Guardian.
Mark, Wonderland ain’t got nothin on Scotland.
The axis upon which Scottish politics spins is the constitutional issue. Lab and Con are partners in Scotland: united agin a common foe. I fully appreciate that this is a difficult concept for English folkFamiliar with Lab/Con enmity.
29 Alex it means that Gordon Brown wants IHT for the many not only for the rich few.
30 The onward march of the idea of the Dead Millionaires Tax…
The class warfare stuff seems to have massively backfired on Our Glorious Leader.
Good.
30 - Brown wrote the book on losing votes.
His immense good fortune is to be up against CallMeDave.
He only gave one cast iron signal of what he ‘believed in’, that turned out to be plasticine in a microwave.
I think that the next election is going to be a blue knuckle ride for the tories. Wondering how many people, on the day, just say fork it and vote for UKIP.
And BNP for the labaites
Not convinced that Luton matters more than Scotland, but certainly Wales does and we have too few posters from there (though the few we do have are good).
29 Perhaps they are planning to employ murder squads to kill lots of voters and thereby get more inheritance tax.
In all seriousness you are right. It really depends on whether Labour can convince people that the proposed tory inheritence tax cut will help the mega rich(i.e. the nonsense we hear off Tim every day) or whether the Tories will actually turn around and argue the fact that Labour are lying, that only millionaires will pay inheritence tax, and that it was a funded tax cut anyway.
On topic: Stuart Dickson is right.
Scotland doesn’t matter much as far as determining the outcome of the GE is, but might significantly influence what happens after it.
9 - 33 for NI pus others is exactly where I have had others as well.
Well done overnight for.
1.Ken Clarke assuring everyone that all this class thing is irrelevant because the Tories are just like Harriet and Ed. Top stuff Ken.
2.Dave, for ignoring Matthew Parris and shouting down the phone and even sounding red faced.
Well done Dave, but it’s not about your school, its about the fact that you want to give your family an extra £520,000 while all but your mates get tax rises.
On the PBR: I reckon the Mirror has better access than anyone to Downing Street, so am inclined to put some faith in this:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/12/06/darling-we-ll-squeeze-the-rich-115875-21876530/
Mike, the headline of the year.
19 From this it seems that non-SNP folk voting in Scottish constituencies need to vote Conservative to get a fair number of Tory MPs north of the border, thereby maintaining the union.
How refreshing to read a thread before the inane sniping of Tim has appeared
Interesting piece in Bloomberg.com and I hope the Treasury have read it.
Appears to support the Governments fiscal policy and where does this report leave the “Old Etonians?”
Dec. 6 (Bloomberg) — The U.K. Treasury should keep stimulating the economy during the next few months before reducing its deficit by 60 billion pounds ($99 billion) a year, the National Institute of Economic and Social Research said.
A temporary fiscal expansion should only be carried out if the government has a “convincing” plan to consolidate public finances, the London-based economic consultant said in a report released today.
The findings support Prime Minister Gordon Brown argument that the economy needs government support until a recovery from the worst recession on record is assured. Conservative leader David Cameron has said the budget deficit is the biggest risk to the recovery.
“Because we are in such a deep recession, we should actually loosen fiscal policy in the short-run and then tighten it as we move out of the recession,” Ray Barrell, an economist at Niesr, said in a phone interview.
The findings are meant to guide Chancellor of the Exchequer Alistair Darling’s pre-budget report on Dec. 9. The government already has said it plans to halve the deficit by 2014 through spending reductions and higher taxes worth about 30 billion pounds.
That, according to Niesr, would still leave a deficit of about 4 percent of gross domestic product that the Treasury must curtail to keep the public finances on track.
Niesr forecasts that U.K. GDP will increase by 1.1 percent in 2010 and 1.7 percent in 2011, with the unemployment rate continuing to increase. A temporary income tax rebate worth about 1 percent of GDP would boost economic growth by 0.2 percent in 2010-2011, the consultant said.
39 - I made a mistake, heard Dave on the Radio so presumed it was a phone call.
Actually there’s visuals of a bloke in a tie on a hillside to go with it.
damn - too late
43 - Thats the real dividing line, that Osborne will risk a double dip recession for strategy reasons.
43, hmm. There won’t be an election for a few months, which is when the organisation says we should start cutting. So, that would be backing Tory ideas then. Not that it particularly matters.
46, we’re probably going to have a double dip recession whatever happens, you naughty little tinker.
Morning all.
Last night you were talking about Liam Byrne’s seat and precisely what the “notional” 2005 figues are for it. I have been trying to tell you for months that in 2005 the so called Scottish notionals were as wide ranging and the actual results in several key seats was thousands of votes away. The 2 Dumfries seats are perfect examples of that.
Mike ignores:
SNP v Tory seats
LD v Tory seats.
The Tories on 15% were 2nd in 15 seats in 2005.
If the Tories in Scotland are now around 20-22% that equals 150,000 extra votes. They are not going to be spread evenly in 59 seats.
If you want to know the Scottish seats to watch and bet on then read my recent review on PB2 for all 59 giving winners and losers from 2005, winners from 2007 and my 1st and 2nd choice for the GE in each.
Anyone interested in a breakdown for all seats can email me at
msf10@hotmail.com
Have fun! Im off to watch Marr and Boulton before going out to lunch.
tag-team-tim have you talked to your organ grinder yet? I know you are the morning duty Bot but surely the others left you some notes?
Do buck up and do something useful for a change.
43: “The U.K. Treasury should keep stimulating the economy during the next few months before reducing its deficit by 60 billion pounds ($99 billion) a year, the National Institute of Economic and Social Research said.”
Ah, the old prayer of St Augustus; “Lord, make me virtuous but just not yet”
7. James, you should know by now that if you are not praising the Tories, stating they will have a huge majority whilst pontificating about English constituencies then you will get brickbats. The opinions on here mirror the government and the country in general, English just want to believe Britain is great and that the Scottish are parasites taking all their money whilst not being thankful for them making use of all our natural resources.
Andrew Marr’s paper review is a disgrace.
51 just dont reduce it before the general election….
12. I haven’t checked the exact details but I’d expect that Texas probably returned precisely zero Republicans over at least large period of not 4 elections but 40, between the Civil War and the Civil Rights debates.
53, did he spend a disproportionate amount of time on the Sunday Times?
41. John, if it was a choice of voting Tory or save the union we would be independent tomorrow.
Urgh, Osborne has UPVC windows.
How common
I posted this yesterday night:
For those who are betting on seats:
“Labour is to step up its attack on the Conservative Party’s climate change divisions by targeting 31 “green seats” that David Cameron needs to win the election.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-to-paint-camerons-target-seats-green-1835029.html
Marr almost promotes Osborne: “Chancell….Shadow Chancellor, thank you…”
56 Morris Dancer
Indeed disproportionate - ie, none.
Good interview by Osborne but the echo and the surroundings were pretty awful.
62 As was Marr he gets more bland by the week.
I agree with the first part of OGH that seats in England between Lab & Con are a much more important matter. However if those seats start to produce a picture that moves us into hung parliament territory then it does become important how the seats in Scotland fall.
For example are the LDs keeping 12 in Scotland when the polls forecast a drop of 1/3 to 1/2 in their Scottish vote? How that translates (in LD eyes) into little change beggars belief.
Good old Osborne got it right on Andrew Marr re inheritance tax.
Labour are the enemies of aspiration; Conservatives will not penalise you for saving and planning for your family’s future.
39. I think Ken was simply to trying to remind us of John Prescott’s judgement regarding Ms Harman’s liking for private schools.
62 Perhaps it was the only angle they could shoot from that didn’t show the massive piles of money reaching to the ceiling in Osborne’s gaff.
Either that or he is embarrassed by his wallpaper. Which in itself would be rather embarrassing!
So we have a handful of Scotch buffoons who think OGH doesn’t take Scotland seriously enough, versus probably everyone else who loiters round PB, who think he and the nits alike take Scotland too seriously. Indeed, the nits also take themselves absurdly seriously.
The fact that nit politics even exists at all is testimony to the crushing triviality and small-mindedness of the kind of hicks and hayseeds who support these little parties.
It reminds me a story some comedian used to tell about how he’d overheard two Mancs Christmas shopping in Oxford Street. One said “Busy, ent it?” and the other said “Well it would be, there’s us big busload in from Sale today, int tha?”
And that’s nits that is.
Still, at least OGH didn’t mention that Luton, as well as being more significant than Scotland, is also less sectarian and violent, and more literate.
Osborne was very good this morning, As he says he now sounds like the chancellor and for example with Bank bonuses has it nailed. I suspect in comparison Darling will be incoherent with lots of party political pettiness.
Mike can speak for himself, but I’m sure he didn’t mean that it was unwelcome for Scots to discuss prospects here - the fine details may elude some of us in some of the posts, but they’re not unique in that, and it’s one of pb’s strengths that it has local expertise in all kinds of places. His point is just that there aren’t many Lab-Con marginals up there so if Cameron wants a majority he won’t make much progress there. However, if there’s a hung parliament, the Lab/SNP balance will certainly be relevant to who the largest party is, both in seats and votes.
69 voreas
I doubt it. Darling normally comes across well in interviews.
40. As a tax lawyer I work mostly in the FTSE100 and global500 space and the discussion that most interests the leaders of these businesses is just how uncompetitive this current government is prepared to make the UK.
We are already losing significant inward investment as few executives want to relocate here (and that includes football players)and the exodus discussions with our UK based clients continues to grow exponentially. Both individuals and corporates are considering joining the ranks of WPP, Informa, Shire, UBM and various hedge funds and other previously signifcant UK tax payers and employers in taking their tax dollars and business elsewhere.
For those who are not wealthy or mobile enough to move, the game is tax planning and I cant get an appointment with our Human Capital professionals for 3 weeks because they are so busy developing, selling and implementing planning opportunities for mitigating the impact of 50% and reduced pension relief.
So far from “getting the economy back on track” the actual result of all of this enterprise, pip squeezing nonsense from Labour and the Timbots will be totally the opposite. Although it does seem to have resulted in a very modest narrowing of the opinion polls. However, assuming our government rules in the national interest I cant for one second believe that Team Brown could be threatening such economically dangerous and counterproductive policies just for short term partisan gain.
Marr really needs to decide if he wants a serious politics programme - or to be hosting South Bank Show lite. The weird mix doesn’t work.
The story so far: tim, pbc’s indefatigable Labour warrior, appears to despise Brown, Balls, Harman and McBride. He calls them crap.Tim is the Gerald Ratner of party spinners.
Darlig: hard sell of “moderate” growth next year.
Doesn’t sound good…
68. And so says the biggest buffoon of all.
71 Not so far, he is ignoring debt, and talking growth, dissing the tories etc.
77 Deficit will obviously be reduced it is a stupid point, what about debt? No spending review I wonder why?
Tough choices? Darling “not doing a spending review now, still too much uncertainty…”
So running and hiding until the election.
Excvcellent news.
Darling ditches NHS IT scheme.
70. Nick, very eloquent post , nice to see that someone actually understands the point , the herd on here cannot see outside their blinkers. We can only hope it ends up with the Tories being the biggest party and SNP doing well in Scotland, we will see some hysterics and opinion changes on here then.
69 Shock horror you say the same every day.
81, don’t you ever get tired of moaning? If Scotland want independence all they have to do is vote an SNP majority at Holyrood then vote to break away in a referendum.
All this talk about Scotland makes me wonder whether it is not time to review the constituional arrangements of PB.com.
We could start with devolution: a subsite to which the main site will link (in honour of Scotland’s geographical position) at the top of the page.
Within the sub-site the Scottish posters would be largely free to discuss matters as they please. It will have a population less than one tenth of the main site, and the London-based media will ignore its threads, while continuing to refer daily to discussions on the main thread.
Quite charitably, Robert Smithson will provide technical support for the site and Mike Smithson will suggest thread titles from time to time.
The participants on the sub-site will complain about Robert’s technical support and Mike’s threads, noting that the Scottish sub-site is treated less well than the main site. Earnest debates will start about full independence.
There will be a protracted impasse while the Scottish posters slowly learn that independence is not just a matter for them, and that Mike, ruler of PB.com, has a say in the matter.
Quite reasonably, the Scottish members will insist as part of the separation terms that Mike pays them a stipend of two thousand pounds per poster, provides ongoing virus protection and consultancy services. They also insist on receiving copyright on any words sopoken to, by or about any Scotsman or person related to a Scotsman posted on the main site in the last thirty years.
Being weary, Mike will eventually agree to full independence, accepting some of the Scots’ terms, very watered down.
Scottish PB.com will launch in September 2013 amidst much fanfare. It will fail to make its revenue targets and within two years will be unable to support itself financially (in part because senior posters will have been awarded a 2,OOO pounds a year sinecure for life)
Mike will generously bail out the Scottish site in November 2016 but will receive no thanks. The site will close six months later, its main posters drifting back to the main site, where they will dominate each thread with earnerst discussions as to why independence failed, the inevitable conclusion being that it is Mike’s fault.
ENDEX
78 Inheritence tax doing the “Top priority” lie, dear oh dear.
Darling on IHT: “can’t see how it could be a prioroty to give a tax break to the top 2% of estates in the country”
A damn sight more than 2% of Britain worry about IHT, Chancellor.
85 Every other country has similar problems lie. Hell do best placed in a minute.
87 totally struggling on bonuses as he is clueless.
88 completely hopeless, “you need to keep credit going”, so why isn’t it?
88, still feel some sympathy for Darling. He’s also kept Balls from Number 11.
Notr one of Darlings best inteviews so far, no spending review, struggling on bonuses..
88 Yet again another fair balanced nuanced comment.
89 Doesn’t want to damage financial services. Why allow the french to have the city commissioner then?
92 So give us your commentary then, Dez. Say something positive about Darling’s performance. Is he inspiring you?
Darling seems to lose his composure a bit when it came to bonuses.
This is more partisan than I’ve generally seen him.
93 hypocrisy on class war. It is a full house.
Interesting ~ Darling gives in on very interuption ~ hes does not want to say anything!
Go on Marr - pick up Darling on his education: you know he went to one of the flashest Scottish schools.
But no - pulled punches…
Very weak, Marr.
Labour would do far better in the election with Darling as leader. He’s credible in a way the current incumbent isn’t.
19. If Scotland only elects two or three Tory MP’s whilst England and Wales put Prime Minister Cameron into Downing Street, then Scotland will have decided to move away from reality-based governance. It would then be almost perverse not to allow the Scots to have a referendum on what they really do want.
I find it perverse that it is always assumed Scottish “independence” (they’ll still be run by Brussels and they’ll find “their” oil isn’t actually theirs, any more than their fish is) is a matter to be voted on by Scotch voters.
As it is English taxpayers who will benefit from Scotch expulsion from the union, English taxpayers should get to vote on it.
Otherwise, it’s as though you’d held a vote on German reunification in 1989 and only polled the East Germans.
Such a campaign would be extremely entertaining. North of the border, the Nits would be arguing that direct rule from Brussels would herald the dawn of a golden age of Scotch prosperity. South of it, they’d have to argue that Scotland’s resemblance to Liberia is increasing daily, and the English should vote them out before they’re forced to pay even more to be joined at the hip to a basket case failed state.
A further advantage would be that, after Scotland had failed as a state and tried to re-enter the Union, there would be a precedent for a UK-wide referendum on the reunion. So we could all vote once again to keep the sponging whining navel-gazing smack-injecting Mars-bar-deep-frying inpenetrable-regionally-accented buggers out.
Darling wasn’t very warm on the idea of a windfall tax.
He didn’t seem to think there was a problem with credit flowing either. Poor.
99: I think he’s a pretty decent man having to play a vey sticky wicket.
99 Not really though Mike, as a chancellor I don’t think he has been good if we take away how bad Brown is comparatively. He has spent the past year giving in to the banks, constantly changing his forecasts and postponing spending reviews. Not exactly credible.
102 Kristin
I missed what he said when confronted with the credit agreement failure - could you remind me?
98 - Its not the schools it the hypocrisy of “We’re all in it together” whilst filling your mates pockets.
In a spirit of consensus I thing we can all agree on two things.
First, we should all give thanks that Alistair Darling was in power last autumn rather than George Osborne.
Secondly that the Tories have made a huge miscalculation on IHT.
99 - 100% right Mike.
100
given the generally contrarian nature of the the Scots, if they were told they had to leave the Union they would see it as an insult and refuse.
105 - he said that because business was paying down debt the lending figures look a lot less than they actually are. There has been lending.
94 Mark Darling doesn`t inspire no, but he is a solid politician.
Osborne was good this morning against a going through the motions Marr.
But its always black and white for many on here.
One reason Conservatives might vote for Scotch independence is crime.
Crime levels in urban Scotland are among the highest in the UK. If you took Scottish crime out of UK figures you’d find that England is actually a pretty peaceable place.
We see this every day with the ranting, foaming, hate-filled cobblers that nits post on here. Clearly, they’d rather be kicking posters they disagree with in their “heed” than debating with them. Trainspotting was a documentary, basically.
A Tory PM who promised to cut crime by expelling Scotland would be onto a winner. Alone, the reduction in Labour MPs that resulted would achieve a significant drop in white-collar offending.
103 - slack - I’d agree with that. Not one of his best interviews thouhg.
106 Is that your version of the royal we then Tim, or do you just have lots of multiple personalities going on in your head.
Its not the schools it the hypocrisy of “We’re all in it together” whilst filling your mates pockets.
I assume you’re talking about Blair - yes it’s absolutely despicable.
The critical issue in the coming months is the number of Tory MPs that will be elected. That, and that alone, will determine whether there’s a majority government or not.
Er, surely it also depends on the number of Labour MPs that will be elected? If Labour loses one or two extra seats in Scotland, that would help to lose its overall majority. You never know when something unexpected might happen - Conservatives might do better than expected in Scotland (4 or 5 gains rather than 1 or 2) but worse than expected in England. Remember 1992!
Hooray for IHT!!
Boo for DMT!!
Currently got 2 ‘normal’ Beds-based couples making IHT plans in case the Tories don’t get to deliver the IHT promise before they die… neither of them get Xmas cards from anyone in the Conservative party which is odd given Gordon’s assertion???
IFAs 4 Labour… IHT - a tax on the unprepared.
If they could stop their annual increase to 350k from 325k then business would boom!
99 Agreed - of the current Cabinet he is the one with credibility. He doesn’t seem to have much in the way of party backers though, maybe like Major he could attract the stop others MPs, the stop Harriet/stop Balls MPs who aren’t wedded to Miliband/s.
John Rentoul notes in his column, saying Brown isn’t quite home and dry to stay, that Brown’s “people briefed against the Foreign Secretary at the Commonwealth meeting in Trinidad last weekend. Journalists were told that David Miliband had tried and failed to persuade the Sri Lankans to withdraw their bid to host the next meeting; Brown then succeeded.”
Question: who was the last English candidate to win a Scottish seat?
Until 2005 the Tories were still putting up English candidates in Scotland. Have Labour ever done that?
TIMBOT, from 2 posts it’s possible to deduce two things about you -
‘106 In a spirit of consensus I thing we can all agree on two things.’
You’re both arrogant…
‘58 Urgh, Osborne has UPVC windows. How common.’
And a Toff!
111 - John R - I think you’ll find that crime figures are reported separately. Scotland has it’s own judicial system, devolved.
I do not understand why Osborne does not kill off these IHT jibes. All he has to do is say that because of the terrible state that Labouur has put public finances in, the IHT tax threshold will go up by 10% each year and in 2014 it will have reached £1m for married couples.
simples and an end to timbot and one of Jock Brown’s attacking lines.
PS Labour have already promised £700k for couples in 2010!
55-Indeed the whole of the South.
106 Blair and Darling went to the Scottish versions of Eton and Harrow. Marr should have tripped up Darling on his hypocrisy.
Labour crushing ambition and aspiration through the tax system. Happy to fight an election on that. If Labour think that their “richism” will resonate, let them run their campaign and their tax system on that basis. If people are to be sneered at for hard work and making something of themselves, and then to be dragged down on death, go ahead.
The American Dream is one end of the spectrum. Labour’s War on Aspiration, their denigration of rewards for effort at the other. One leads to growth and a bigger pie to tax; the other to terminal decline.
Damn, I’m looking forward to this election!
BBC News choose 2 clips from Marr’s show: Osborne being very good on massive debt and government acting like an opposition, and Darling tying himself in knots on bonuses.
121. No………………….
Vote Labour and keep IHT for the poor little IFA.
I think Marr was good this morning and I wish he were like this all the time. Far less interruption of both interviewees but having about 5 or 6 really tough questions. Gives the Interviewee a chance to make a case on a very tough subject, perfect.
118. Was that the late Rachel Squire in Dunfermline?
Perhaps the great IHT expert could come up with some figures to show the level of indexation on IHT since 1997, or even some data about how many people were affected by it every year since its introduction.
I wonder if the IHT expert is actually a IFA and involved in tax planning. Perhaps Marr should have asked about Alistair Darling’s method of avoiding Captial Gains Tax, or how the Chancellor is exposed/not exposed to IHT.
123, I’m ambivalent about it. I remain concerned about postal voting.
Yvette Cooper, terrible on Boulton.
I cannot think of any level on which Luton matters…
128
That sort of question is bound to come up in the GE election campaign.
128. Tim an IFA?
You little beauty. Welcome to the club…
130. typo on that.
Yvette Cooper = terrible
115. Er, surely it also depends on the number of Labour MPs that will be elected?
Er, no. There are two kinds of MP in the house: Conservatives, and anti-Conservatives.
It makes no difference what flavour of anti-Conservative is elected. Scratch any of them and they’re all red underneath. So a Lab/SNP marginal is of nil relevance to the GE outcome because whoever the winner is they will line up with the left.
The hatred of the left for each other, and consequent People’s Front of Judaea / Judaean People’s Front chaos, have been tremendously helpful to Conservatism over the years.
83. Morris you are the one that does the moaning about Scotland, like many on here you are intolerant of other peoples opinions if they do not match your stereotype. Time you took a good look at your self and appreciated that there are other opinions in the world and some of them have validity. Practice what you preach.
30
Oh dear, I hope tim is not going to cast her out into the nether regions as well.
The point about IHT is not the number affected in any one year (”3000 estates”) but the number who are potentially affected at any point in time.
Trashy IKEA lights on Yvettes fireplace…
110 Dez, appreciate the positive engagement. We will just have to disagree about Darling.
He was never going to give much by way of detail; in that regard, I don’t really know why they get invited on media shows before these big set-piece speeches. But from little he did say, it appears that he is not going to get serious about the needs of the British economy. He is like a surgeon with a patient losing masses of blood, who requires a very risky operation. Darling seems to be waiting for the next shift to clock on so he doesn’t get any blame if the patient snuffs it - whilst taking no responsibity for the delays being a major factor in the death of his patient.
84. flockers , do not give up your day job , you have far to go before you make it as a comedian.
136, moaning? I get bored listening to whinging. You’ve got a Parliament. If he people of Scotland want a referendum they can use the ballot box to ensure they get one. They haven’t.
Yvette Cooper, a horriblw monster.
And of course the “number of estates” does not equate to the number inheriting.
139 - Did anyone expect anything else, she married badly.
Although I now understand why Osborne has made so many mistakes on his Cheshire mortgage, his house seems to double as a Harvester truck stop.
145
she married
so Sir Tim Ffortesque-Smythe she should have done like you and married a close relative ?
111. John , you betray your stupidity and fact that you are a troll. Scottish crime figures as you well know are not included in the English numbers. Methinks you may be Tim in disguise or at least one of his acolytes being paid by Labour.
37, 45
Blimey, I never expected him to actually do it !
140 - Labour are in the desperate position of both wanting the election to be as far in the future as possible (to give time for the economy to recover) whilst desperate for it to arrive as soon as possible (before any new shocks appear to return them to levels of support of earlier in the year).
From UK polling report, from the polls.
Some interesting stuff in the other questions in both polls. YouGov asked some questions about whether the Conservatives were seen as the party of the rich, and about potential tax hikes and cuts. On the issue of the Conservative party image 52% agreed with the statement that the Conservatives are still the party of the rich, with 31% disagreeing. It was largely a partisan response though, 90% of Labour supporters thought so, only 14% of Conservative supporters.
On taxation, YouGov continues to find the public opting for public spending cuts over tax hikes (by 52% to 30%). If there are to be tax rises though, putting extra taxes on the very rich remains as popular as ever. Asked whether taxes should be spread evenly across the population, or concentrated on rich people, 66% go for the latter. YouGov also asked about the Conservative proposals to recognise marriage in the tax system, and found the public pretty evenly divided: 48% of repondents supported the idea, 43% disagreed.
‘Till the pips squeak’ perhaps.
Is Anne Moffat MP East Lothian not English?
142. Morris , you seem unable to grasp that all the power is held in Westminster, Holyrood at present only gets to dole out the amount of pocket money that Westminster deigns to send us. Stick to subjects you know something about , lots of people read your whinging posts and refrain from giving their honest opinion , try doing the same now and again.
151 - It must be pretty difficult to qualify as bona fide Scottish these days!
“Born in Dunfermline in 1958, Anne Moffat is of the well-known Moffat family of East Lothian and Fife, but was known by her married name of Picking. She contested the 2005 election under her married name, despite having been divorced for two years, so as not to confuse the voters. Following the election she returned to her maiden name. [1]. She attended Woodmill High School in Dunfermline before embarking on a career in nursing.
She joined the Fife Health Board in 1975 as a nursing assistant, becoming a pupil nurse in 1977, before becoming a State Enrolled Nurse in 1978 working at the Lynebank Hospital in Dunfermline. In 1978 she left Fife and joined the Northern Ireland Eastern Health Service in 1980, leaving in 1983 as a staff nurse. She moved to England in 1983 and joined the East Kent Community Health Care Trust as a staff nurse. She became a councillor in 1994 on the Ashford Borough Council where she served until 2000. She has been a member of the National Executive Committee since 1990.”
Malcolm Tucker’s gone!
54
Replaced by Inspector Grimm.
152, do you think that if most Scots backed the SNP, who then initiated a referendum and that referendum returned a vote for independence that Westminster would overrule it? Of course not.
140 Marquee Mark.
Agreed, I don`t know why they get invited on media shows before these set pieces.
As the mantra of involving parliament first for any government from now on seems designed to make it a difficult interview.
I would disagree with the patient dying argument, it is to negative.
This country has been through worse in the 30`s 40`s and still went on to improve the life of its people in so many ways.
154 - it’s the first of a two parter apparently.. so we’ll see.
RE IHt are there some interesting tactics at play - labour are so excited about this dividing line that they will withdraw the promised rises in thresholds that they promised when copying Osborne in 2007
But this will leave room for Osborne to reduce and defer his proposals ( citing government debt mess ) whilst retaining a clear aspirational difference which will be hugely popular whilst labour will be left with IHT cutting into a huge % of estates based on current thresholds . Many families are have fairly high debt and have to an extent been counting on some inheritance to see them through but are shocked when IHT cuts in at their perceived modest level of wealth
154 That is a bold statement!
He’ll have more returns to the frontline than Mandy… He “cannot be
f*ckedkilled”, just like..oh hang on, I’ve got it somewhere…aha!
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
135. Er, no. There are two kinds of MP in the house: Conservatives, and anti-Conservatives.
It makes no difference what flavour of anti-Conservative is elected.
Er, no. Whether there is a majority government or not depends on two things:
(a) whether the Conservative Party has a majority;
(b) whether the Labour Party has a majority.
Therefore, whether there is a hung parliament or not also depends on two things:
(a) whether the Conservative Party has a majority;
(b) whether the Labour Party has a majority.
A Labour majority (i.e. the lack of a hung parliament) could be achieved with the Conservative Party gaining 4 or 5 seats in Scotland. Therefore it is not accurate to write “the critical issue … is the number of Tory MPs that will be elected. That, and that alone, will determine whether there’s a majority government or not.“
Clegg and Kofi Annan on Boulton.
145 And what exactly is the problem with Harvesters, and uPVC windows? Are you trying to alienate more of Labour’s core vote, and drive them into the arms of other parties, such as the BNP.
For someone who makes so many posts about perceived privilege in the Tory party, the snobbishness and interest you constantly display with regard to your own social standing and wealth, are astounding.
Alex, I stand corrected!
Scotland matters more than Luton, by a factor of maybe 3.
157 “This country has been through worse in the 30`s 40`s”
Hardly a ringing endorsement of the Gordon Brown Years:
“He did slightly less damage to the British economy than the Luftwaffe.
Although more than Thatcher…”
58 the interview was from a village hall in his constituency
Norman Godman MP was he not EnglisH?
163 EdP, tim despises ALL politicians.
They are all beneath him. But that is what you get from living on Mount Guardianista…the pinnacle of all that is proper.
145 - Actually tim, those look more like double glazed hardwood frames.
166 I believe there was a report yesterday saying the UK may be only the 15th richest country in less than a decade. This has to be worse than just after the second world war, and gives you an idea of how truly awful a chancellor/prime minister Brown was/is.
161. JohnLoony.
If you believe that Labour retaining their overall majority is a plausible outcome, you can avail yourself of Stan James’ 14/1 odds.
163 - Perhaps from your low base level you aspire to a Harvester with UPVC windows, personally I have a higher vision for the dignity of the British working classes and wouldn’t condemn any of them to suffer a “Two for One” meal deal of reheated Rogan Josh and Lasagne with a side salad.
Unless they are from Essex of course.
And I think Osborrnes Harvester Truck Stop backdrop will not win him any votes.
157. the whole world went through bad times in the 30s and 40s, a lot of the rest of the world has thrown off the banking crisis and are now moving ahead. We are a patient in decline, we might not need last rites, just yet, but a doctor might recommend the patient gets his affairs in order as soon as possible.
116.
Saying IHT is “a tax on the unprepared” is like saying “VAT is a tax on people who buy stuff”. What preparation is available other than giving stuff away and living 7 years, plus a few trust things which enhance the advantage of doing that? My (first hand) experience is that rich people give away as much as they reasonably can but also hang on to a lot on the reasonable grounds that (a) it is nicer to be rich than not to be rich, (b) unless you are so close to death that it’s too late to bother with the 7 year trick you can never be sure that you are only going to live another 7 years rather than 17 or 27 - which is a long time to be not rich. And you can’t give it all away on the assumption that your kids will see you right if necessary because they could lose it all on the horses/divorce courts or turn out to be greedy little bastards.
So even the prepared and the rich get hit by IHT. The Telegraph “recent wills” don’t show up on google presumably because of a noindex instruction in the html, but they usually have two or three people leaving well over a million quid. These people are all paying IHT on that sum unless it all goes to charity (a minority of cases) or it all goes to the spouse in which case it is taxable on his/her death, unless he/she gives it away and lives 7 years (but if they were that clued up about IHT avoidance there wouldn’t have been so much money left by the first to die.
And even the unprepared have votes.
172 You pointless petty man.
166 I wasn`t really meant to be a war anolgy but world economic conditions experienced in the banking crisis of the depression years .
I don`t personally believe the conditions would have been different with a Conservative government elected in 2005 under PM Michael Howard.
The decision was still the correct one to massively support our banking system from collapse.
Historians will be more balanced than yourself on the governments actions in 2008.
172
looks like you are on the wrong side of Brown’s class dividing line !
172. tim, skirting the issue as usual. Never mind the sodding windows, was he in Boden or TM Lewin?
172. Once more, in the less then a few words, Tim shows up the complete and utter contempt the Labour Party has for the working classes.
You know what, us working classes quite like our pub food, and if the meal cost more then £10, it aint pub food, its restaurant food, served in a pub.
172 tim, drive away more of Labours vote. I’m sure your bastard child, the BNP will welcome them into the fold.
172.Once more, in the less then a few words, Tim shows up the complete and utter contempt the Labour Party has for the working classes.
You know what, us working classes quite like our pub food, and if the meal cost more then £10, it aint pub food, its restaurant food, served in a pub.
174 - the main issue is the family home which can’t really be “given away” for obvious reasons. When children inherit they are often forced to sell up against their wishes, merely to pay the inheritance tax bill.
Personally i would have far less issue with inheritance tax if it only became payable on cash realisation of the asset.
176. I think it’s extremely unlikely that economic historians will be of one mind about the wisdom of what was done in Autumn 2008. The whole question hinges on what the consequences would have been of acting differently, and there is endless scope to disagree about that.
Isn’t Luton one of those typical English rotten boroughs that seem to predominate down there? Ugly, suburban and with a propensity to violence (enough about the natives). Isn’t it one of those places where you’re likely to get your car stolen at Tesco’s, or much worse? Or am I thinking about Essex? In that part of the world, those places all seem to blend into the same chav ridden wasteland.
176 - I think the issue for most people is the Government’s actions before 2008, not since!
176 - RBS most people probably agree, if they’re honest. Northern Rock, far less clearcut.
Lloyds/HBOS - a lot of people have good reason for being angry about what happened to Lloyds.
183.
White hooded intimidating youths, with feckless pregnant girlfriends = chavs
Black hooded intimidating youths, with feckless pregnant girlfriends = A welcome, cosmopolitan injection of cultural diversity that should be celebrated by a lottery grant.
173, The patient could have a relapse if the treatment is taken away to early, it will be a difficult judgement call.
But the fear for many would be the 1980-83 experience.
With unemployment still the lagging factor until the late eighties.
177. dez: The decision was still the correct one to massively support our banking system from collapse.
It was the only course of action possible, thanks to Brown’s 11 years up to that point.
189. Its probably to late to do an IHT dodge, at least if the French and German sods are going to inherit it all, they’ll have to pay 40% on everything above £280,000.
189 Dez, the overall destruction of the economy has been worse than 1980-3. The painkillers of monstrous amounts of newly-created debt were intended to mask the pain; but the problems caused by the treatment wil persist for decades, in the form of eye-watering interest payments aka “someone else’s problem”. They have cynically pushed the real problems onto future Govt’s - Govt’s they expect to be Tory.
That is what Osborne needs to get through to the voters in the GE campaign. If the voters take that on board, then Labour will in turn be poisoned for decades too.
Today’s news that GideO’s disgraced doctor brother has undergone a quick conversion in order to wed his long-term sweetheart made me think. Might GideO become an equally-speedy convert to sound finance? Will he repent his position of last year which was to stare into the headlights of the banking crisis like a baby rabbit, putting forward policies which would have had Britain in a slump worse than the 1930s? And, on a personal note will he ‘fess up on flipping second homes?
IHT relief for billionaires. It’s GideO’s election-winning number one priority!!
I see Khameroeon’s flown off to a Khaki photo-opportunity again. Nice of him to remind us all how he was signed up 120 per cent to Tony Blair’s Iraq war fiasco. Whoever said “you can’t kid a kidder”?
177. In the situation at the time, i think pretty much anyone would have made the same decision. But, we now have the advantage of hindsight, with that, do you still think it was the right idea?
Remember at the time the government stepped in to help northern rock, the massive scale of the problem was unknown. We were repeatedly told that the ‘loan book’ was sound and this was just a cashflow issue because of the crunch.
I think, again, with hindsight, it would have been better for the government to 100% guarantee deposits of individual (and institutional??) account holders, and let the banks fold.
As quickly as northern rock, hbos and rbs hit the floor, Tesco, Virgin, HSBC and even the post office would have been there to pick up the new customers.
Some of these banks have foreign liabilities that massively outweigh their assets. Bankruptcy would probably have been in the national interest.
166.
““He did slightly less damage to the British economy than the Luftwaffe.”
What damage did Gordo ever do to the Luftwaffe? Is that why Angela Merkel seems so cold to him?
191 - relocating to italy and becoming domiciled there is an option.
There really isn’t a downside, food, wine, weather, people, I could go on.
re 173. What a nasty snob you are - and you also launch into attacks without checking simple facts.
The Osborne interview for Marr was done from the church hall as was made clear if you had watched the programme AND paid attention.
Oh sorry - that undermines a good story.
193 - I think I understand why wage slave uses ‘GideO’: it’s to emphasize his perceived ‘upper-class’ (maybe even slightly Jewish) first name. But where the **** does ‘Khameroeon’ come from? Does he just press letters at random because he can’t bear to write any Tory’s real name?
The counterfactualists are already at work
It is an interesting thought. What if bust banks had gone to the wall and instead of bailouts there had been an immediate 5 pence reduction in income tax, a substantial reworking of thresholds and big cuts on taxes on business. Would the result have been any worse than the current deep recession? It would have taken political nerves of steel to implement such a policy. But Andrew Lilico thinks the bailouts weren’t just an economic mistake, he says they represented a moral failure.
“I continue to believe that the moral aspect of this is totally under-reported. In the bailouts we identified some of the richest people in the world - bank bondholders, bank employees, bank depositors with cash sums in excess of deposit insurance thresholds - and used money raised in taxes on the poor to spare those rich people the consequences of their mistakes. How is that the press is not more outraged by this? And why is there so little outrage that whereas when miners and shipbuilders and car manufacturers argued that there were systemic consequences from the shut-down of their companies - blighting whole regions for a generation - we all (rightly, in my view) said they had to be sacrificed on the altar of the free market, but when it’s bankers and London that’s involved, suddenly systemic effects and the misery of unemployment are rediscovered? It has absolutely, unequivocally, been one rule for the rich and another for the poor; and one rule for London and the South-East and another for Yorkshire, Wales, and Belfast. I think that’s immoral, and I am disappointed that so few journalists seem to be able to see it.”
40.
“http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/12/06/darling-we-ll-squeeze-the-rich-115875-21876530/”
Gordo’s lot will do anything to get back at Tony Bliar won’t they? Does no harm in their eyes either if these measures swipe the Khammy and GideO families along the way.
193 - Ah yes, of course, “Mr 120 percenter”.
I will grudgingly support the government on Iraq and pray that war is short, writes David Cameron MP
@193 wage slave
“Whoever said “you can’t kid a kidder”?
was obviously wrong .. labour seem to have ample opportunity and appear to be succeeding.
198. It’s hilarious. Obviously. Not as funny as Khaooomooooreeeosnfhgtiurlfmcwq, but then he’s not as witty as SeanT…
Anyone watching Clegg on Boulton? He really should remember to close the conservatory door before the interview starts!
197. OGH: that undermines a good story.
To be fair, Mike, it undermines a bad story.
197 - The Tag Team Tim’s are doing well over the past few days. 12hrs bashing a armed services charity campaign, now taking the piss out of a church hall. Lovely.
194 - The problem with the scenario is that the Govt could “guarantee” as much as they liked. Any business, of which there are thousands, which had their business account with RBS would have gone bust with the complete cessation of cashflow. It wouldn’t have been a simple matter of ringing up the Treasury and asking for your money by tomorrow morning.
206 (cont) Some might be tempted to say “what a tit”.
Interesting comment from FN.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5605673/brown-waits-to-strike.thtml
Backed up by Osborne’s support for a windfall tax on the banks. Strange whenever Labour suggests such a thing, this site is full of howls of protest from the, ‘usual suspects’
209 - I don’t think the banks have much support, even amongst Tories. Didn’t they have a windfall tax in 1980?
The point about a windfall tax is that it’s a one-off. It’s not really an excuse for Banks to up sticks and go elsewhere, because it doesn’t make a difference to their longterm profitability.
The difficulty is to implement it in such a way that they don’t immediately pass it on to their customers.
192 Marquee Mark,
The Destruction of the economy as you put it 1980-83 was deeper in certain sections and areas especially outside the south east of England.
All goverments and oppositions don`t reveal fully what actions they are to take until after the voters have had there say.
Thats why most are very cynical.
Note Labour not been clear about nat ins rises for NHS increased spending.
Conservatives massively incresing VAT from 8% to 15%.
As you say a Conservative government is expected, as is the VAT rise to 22.5%.
But honestsy won`t come from either party until July/SEP 2010.
Like many political journalists, Fraser Nelson is excellent at articulating political ideology. But political strategy eludes him.
If people believe the argument about VAT rises being used to stimulate the economy because spending will increase prior to the rise, why don’t the Govt institutionalise “high VAT” and “low VAT” periods? First six months of the year could be 25%, second six months could be 15%, on a rotating basis
201.
Seven minutes!!! Slacking boys. The Khammeroen eras-protection spin machine must have been toasting their crumpets. You appear to have a little trouble confusing what certain politicians think and what they choose to say they think.
In that nauseating handwringing piece, DC still cannot hide the pathetic real reasons why he would vote to follow Bliar to slaughter hundreds of thousands of towelheads:
“Consider the consequences, at this late stage, if the no vote actually carried the day.
The US-UK alliance, which has been at the heart of Nato and the key to peace in the post war world, would be shaken, if not broken.
In terms of the UK, we would have let down our strongest ally and friend.
In terms of the US, any chance of the administration following a multilateralist approach in the future would be virtually at an end.
In Iraq, Saddam would celebrate a great victory. He would have completed his aim of dividing those who stood against him and in favour of his disarmament.
Finally, the UN and the concept of international law would suffer. Instead of talking about world order, we would face world disorder.
…. I see no alternative to backing our government and our troops - and praying that the war is short.”
Basically sounds like he was deep-down for war for regime-change, just like his then leader Mickey Howard. How things looked mattered more than how things actually were. And licking up to our American masters more important than anything. 120 per cent Bliarite in reality. Couldn’t stop it from bubbling through the handwringing presentation.
212. dez: The Destruction of the economy as you put it 1980-83 was deeper in certain sections and areas
Examples?
I’m sure you’ll be tempted to answer “manufacturing”, but you’d be wrong.
But honestsy won`t come from either party until July/SEP 2010.
As long as Labour dishonestly pretends that all’s right with the world, the Tories can’t be realistic (unless they want to lose). Sadly, 12 years of New Labour have left the public unprepared for being told the truth.
And this is why Brown bottling the election twice has been disastrous for the country - at the very time we needed a government (and opposition!) that could look out for the national interest and not for the next election, we’ve had 18 months of drift.
Given the amount of money that the UK has ploughed into banks in the last year or so, it will ill-behove banks to complain about any taxation regime for a very long time to come. The sole criterion for setting the taxation regime for banks should be whether it is in Britain’s long term interests. alex’s post addresses the most important points.
17 and 18. Great stuff from Ken Clarke. How the Tories have missed his commonsense and humour.
Mockery will be a key weapon against this attempt by New Labour to declare class war on the Tories. As I’ve tried to show a number of times, their claims are quite absurd. By their speeches, patronage and more importantly their actions New Labour gave every appearance of being completely dazzled by the super-rich and the City in the past decade and more, and not a few of our current problems stem from their fawning and niaivete.
The Tories need to show less embarrassment about their background and start to ridicule the gap between what Labour now say and the reality of their past actions.
just watching Kofi Annan on Boulton ~ saving the World by burning it down!!
215
Christ, all this “Khammeroen” and “Bliar” stuff is such a turn-off for anyone who is actually just interested in politics.
Does it really make you feel any better posting this stuff?
212 Someone on R5 thought that whichever party formed the next Government there would be a post election emergency budget - the truth will not play a great part pre-election.
213 Fraser gets a bit hysterical about the effectiveness of Gordon Brown’s tactics, not quite up to Janet Daley (or SeanT’s) mood swings but close.
220 - Is Khameroen some sort of attempt to make Cameron sound Arabic?
Right, well the idiot is in full Kammmmeroajkdvbkasfasjgachfghkaen flow, so I’m going shopping.
222 - Haven’t a clue, I was puzzling over that as I copied and pasted it.
It really makes this place difficult to read through. I’m off til he stops.
151 “Question: who was the last English candidate to win a Scottish seat?”
I think that is an interesting point. What is the answer ?
Both in Wales & in Scotland, I think it is becoming more difficult for the parties to field candidates that are not Welsh/Scottish respectively. I personally think that is a good think, as Labour have too often used the Valleys seats to parachute in debris like Peter Hain.
But, there are Scottish and Welsh-born & bred politicians aplenty representing English seats. Particularly, Conservatives as there are few safe Tory seats in either Wales or Scotland — probably only Monmouth!
221 - Nelson seems to think that Cameron should announce a dismemberment of the NHS to improve his popularity.
22 I thought it was meant to invoke an image of a beturbanned Pakistani or possible Sikh chameleon ?
215 I see the wage slave is down on his knees, worshipping at the altar of Heffer. Drink deep.
228. It’s clearly brilliantly effective. Or not.
193.
” I think…. wage slave uses ‘GideO’….to emphasize his perceived ‘upper-class’ (maybe even slightly Jewish) first name.”
Like ‘David’… ‘Jonathan’…… ‘Adam’…… ???????
Unlike me, GideO is seriously MIDDLE class, which none of his money will ever take away from him. Pater was in ‘trade’ y’know!
Silly boy, Pike!!!
I use it to emphasise the reality which was good enough for him as a schoolboy but was twisted in a silly snobbish late-change for ‘effect’. Just like George (not Duncan) Smith.
226.
Malcolm Bruce (Lib Dem, Gordon) hails from the Wirral.
A question for the nats who are no doubt reading this thread with interest.
Would you have a problem with the English, Welsh and N Irish having a referendum to decide if we want to eject Scotland?
Personally, given the opportunity I would vote for ejection and I say that as a Scot (who has lived in England and elsewhere since about the age of four) with Scottish parents, 3 Scottish and 1 Irish grandparent.
It would be worth it to stop the incessant poor me whining that comes from North of the border.
BBC HYS on Gordo Class Warfare not looking too rosy for the Nokia thrower. If anything quite a few people seem to think the opposite, it is a positive to have an Eton educated PM.
28 ” Jonathan, are you capable of reading a post without spinning it?”
You didn’t really need to ask that did you?
231 - Yep, perhaps the question should be clarified as “who was the last English candidate to win, as a new candidate, a Scottish/Welsh seat?
More than 250 murderers serving life sentences are being housed in open prisons, ministers have admitted.
A total of 360 prisoners handed a life term have been moved to the low-security jails in England and Wales, including 260 who were convicted of murder.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6738602/Hundreds-of-murderers-placed-in-open-jails.html
Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime?
Interesting article by Ken Clarke in that it deliberately misses the point. That he went to school with Ed Balls isn’t interesting to anyone other than perhaps Ed Balls.
What Brown did last week was in Aussie parlance give a wolf whistle. The same as Michael Howard in his his seemingly bizarre attack on Gypsies. Who has ever been bothered by a Gypsy? It was a Mcguffin. It tapped in to a prejudice Howard rightly thought would appeal to right wingers.
Brown’s hit at Eton-not grammar schools or public schools nobody has heard of-but Eton is an attack on privilege. A hereditary system which many in the centre and on the left are uncomfortable with.
The Tories are being smart in trying to keep it as an issue of which schools people went to but IHT is making this very difficult to do and Ken Clark knows it.
226 - Do you think the main driver behind Scots standing in England is the lack of safe seats in Scotland, or a desire to escape from Scottish politics?
39 - later start than your norm tim, but still lying I see.
212. One of the main reasons for electing a Conservative govt., is to find out the real state of the nations finances as well as other statistics of paramount interest.
I can imagine that about a month after forming a governmant Cameron appears on TV in a “fireside” chat to the nation.
“My fellow countrymen/women”, he would say, “the state of our current account is dire”, and then proceeds to tell the country exactly what Labour has held back and lied about over 13 years in power.
Even then he dare not tell all in case the international bankers, creditors and the IMF come sniffing around. But what he said would have been enough to damn Labour and their ilk for at least a generation.
It could be just the start a Tory government needs.
238 - Or the fact that many Scots come to England to find a job and absorb English political views while here? Plus some of them see themselves as local to their adopted area of work?
Is Andrew Marr a product of Loretto School, just like Alistair Darling?
242 - Certainly is.
220.
You betray a nauseating respect for comfort blankets, which is rather different to ‘interest in politics’. Plenty of posters repeatedly take paragraph after paragraph on here parroting partisan denigration of their opponents without substance.
So much irateness over a single word or two. Despite their ‘machines’ trying to re-cast them as soil-relocation implements, I call spades spades. It is amusing to see people pretending they don’t know what is referred to. ‘Prick’ and ‘bleed’ come to mind.
Funny, too, how nobody winces from the Labour perspective. Then, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed monster is fair game for a kicking, eh?
237. ‘who has ever been bothered by a gypsy’?
Roger proves to a higher burden of proof then even ‘reasonable doubt’ that he is a metropolitan elite.
Any area that regularly gets visited by Gypsys knows of the problems, the police know very well of the problems, local councils know very much of the problems (though put a rosy gloss on it), even when state of the art facilities are provided completely free.
Reading what Roger writes, i really do think that people live in entirely different worlds, each completely and utterly ignorant of the others life experiences.
Roger
”let him throw the first stone”
A learned man like yourself probably knows the meaning and applicability of the phrase. Back in the Blair/Campbell/Mandy heyday, new labour could make the most outrageous smears, like comparing Howard to Fagin. Not anymore.
As your leftie mates keep going on about, 90% of people in this country haven’t been to a private school of any description. I can tell you Roger, that for most of us, Millfield and Eton are exactly the same. Better tell Gordon before he does anymore damage to his colleagues.
234.
“it is a positive to have an Eton educated PM.”
Plenty of politicians have BEEN to Eton. Some even without being carpeted. But how many gained a real EDUCATION there?
48 - yes we are.
tim as people will have noticed isn’t really interested in truth.
Talking about labour lies
http://www.labour-watch.com/sleaze.htm
” whereas under the Tories there were undeniably some individual back-bench MPs with dodgy agendas of their own, the Labour government is rotten to the core - the cabinet itself; the Prime Minister himself. Tony Blair was caught red-handed lying to the House of Commons about the £1m contribution Labour accepted from the motor racing industry. It was a defining moment and would easily have been the end of a less slimy politician’s career.”
247. Stop acting the fool wage slave.
244, wage slave, see you can write an intelligent post. So why litter your normal stuff with crap that effectively forces people to scroll by as soon as they realise it is you writing.
You have points to make and can make them, so why don’t you do it more often?
238 If you are a Scottish or Welsh Tory aiming for a long-term career, you’d want a safish seat.
So, I guess it’s no surprise that Howe (born Bridgend), Heseltine (Swansea) and Howard (Llanelli) looked outside their land of birth.
Scots standing in England or Wales include Jennie Lee (MP for Cannock), Keir Mardie (Merthyr), Ramsey Macdonald (Aberaveon).
I have no idea why Hardie & Macdonald didn’t represent Scottish seats — perhaps the distinction was not important then as the Labour movement regarded itself as international then, and was certainly strongly anti -nationalist.
Not sure if mentioned, nor if Esther is still standing, but the Sun had a story about her going for the brussel sprout-eating world record yesterday.
I bought the Sun yesterday and read it cover to cover. First time I’ve done that for a while. It’s definitely gone right in respect of Islam. There was an editorial piece on minarets and a rehab of Lee Bowyer. All fair comment.
The other thing about Luton of course, is the EDL and Muslim extremists. I’d be surprised if that doesn’t feature locally given that both are visible in the town.
I put a wage slave post through google translate, makes more sense to me like this…
سبع دقائق! تجنب العمل الفتيان. عهود Khammeroen حماية آلة نسج يجب أن الفطيرة الصغيرة. يبدو أنك لديك صعوبة تذكر ما مربكا بعض السياسيين واعتقد ما يختارونه لانهم يعتقدون.يكون قد شرب نخب من
244. wage slave December 6th, 2009 at 11:46 am
“Funny, too, how nobody winces from the Labour perspective.”
On the contrary, “ZanaLab” is equally as idiotic as your own mis-spellings. Likewise “Bliar”, which is anti-Labour and part of your, er, repertoire.
Any point you want to make against David Cameron would be a lot more telling if you called him “David Cameron”.
The US has had no reliable information on the whereabouts of al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden in years, US Defence Secretary Robert Gates has admitted.
“Well, we don’t know for a fact where Osama Bin Laden is. If we did, we’d go get him.”
…the detainee said that militants were avoiding Pakistani territory because of the risk of US drone attacks.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8397684.stm
But but but Gordo says he is in Pakistan….
243.
“Is Andrew Marr a product of Loretto School, just like Alistair Darling”
And Norman Lament. They are thinking of rebranding themselves, maybe, “CrapChancellors’R'Us?”?
Mind you, Noman never joined the Trotsyite 4th International, did he?
254.
Now you’ve blown your own cover, it is presumably OK to refer to your Al Qaida antecedents, Oracle
Dave coming up on the Politics Show.
He stressed that several members of his shadow cabinet, including shadow defence secretary Liam Fox, shadow foreign secretary William Hague and party chairman Eric Pickles, had attended state schools and pledged to rectify a matter on the Conservative website that only reveals the schooling of personnel if they were educated in the state sector.
He seems to have done a good job of creating a Press story out of that one.
Well done.
237. Roger December 6th, 2009 at 11:39 am
I think the term you want is “dog whistle”?
Lovely image of Michael Howard wolf-whistling though.
Thousands of bogus students are being handed British visas after the Government’s much-heralded reform of the immigration system created a major loophole, an investigation by The Sunday Telegraph can disclose.
Whistleblowers within the immigration service have revealed for the first time that rising numbers of student visa applications have created a big global backlog because new Home Office rules left officials powerless to refuse fraudulent applicants.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/6736498/Immigration-rules-result-in-flood-of-bogus-students.html
NOTICE OF INTENT
I am seeking the “Lanny Budd: Worlds End. series of books in hardcover by Upton Sinclair.
There are 11 books in the series. Starting with ‘Worlds End’ 1940, and ending with ‘The return of Lanny Budd’ 1952.
If anyone knows of a copy/copies and where they may be found, please let me know.
258 tim
It was already a Press story.
The Conservative leadership is obviously worried about the class-based attacks - but that’s because they are paranoid, not because they will work. The fact that they go out of their way to showcase the state school background wherever applicable is just another manifestation of this. Just more political insecurity.
But ultimately, floating voters just don’t care. If they care at all, it’ll rebound on Gordon Brown because he’s obviously out of ideas.
255.
“we don’t know for a fact where Osama Bin Laden is. If we did, we’d go get him.””
A good friend of mine, a minor Afghan Chief, told me a colleague of his dad (slightly bigger Afghan chief) once offered OBL up to the Yanks on a plate, dead or alive. The prices was about the value of 15 minutes Afghan opium supply to Europe.
“Nah”! they said (sort of politely). At the time he was considered more of a problem for Saddam, Russia and even China than for ‘the West’.
258
I’ve just had a look at the Labour website and Harman’s personal one. I can see no mention of the school she went to. Will that be rectified?
I suspect the same is true of the other Privately educated Cabinet members.
262 - But now it morphs into a Sham Cameron story about hiding who they really are, thats why the chauffeur and the bike story is so remembered.
Far more dangerous than a simple stat that two thirds of them went to public school.
WS
I’ve been told by people who know that OBL could have been killed many times over. Too late did the US/UK find their vengeance and wasted it on Iraq.
Darling ‘to shelve multi-billion pound NHS IT system’
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8397854.stm
Do we know how much has already been spent on this?
What a background from which to do the interview.
It looks absolutely beautiful.
Re may post at 268
And that’s just the Politics Show studio
267 Hundreds of millions. Par for the course.
#235 There’s a few in the Scottish Parliament that would fit that bill, I think.
270 - If it is just hundreds of millions we have got away very very light!
The latest budget for the scheme had it costing £20bn when complete, I assumed after so long it will have cost into the billions.
237 Roger - I think the distinction you draw is correct, but your conclusion is the wrong way around.
Labour DO have an effective attack line in dishonestly portraying the Tories, and in particular the IHT policy, as favouring the rich. It is nonsense of course, but still can be effective. But they are messing up this attack by over-personalising it, and in particular by going the top on Eton and the background of individual Tory MPs. That has opened the flank which Ken Clarke, and no doubt other Conservative spokesmen, can now hit back on - that Labour is engaged in shrill, silly and hypocritical class-warfare.
It is all entirely predictable; Brown always overdoes this kind of attack.
Blair would not have made such a crude mistake; he would have subtly got across the first message, whilst disowning the second.
I missed this story at the time,
Richard Granger is one of the highest paid civil servants in charge of a £20billion project to transform the NHS’s computer system.
His mother revealed that the man overseeing largest civilian IT project in the world failed his computer studies course while at Bristol University.
I had to write to Princess Anne, who at that time was “university visitor” there to appeal for him to be allowed to resit the exam, as initially he was refused permission.’
Mr Granger passed the exam on a resit and eventually graduated with a 2:2 in geology.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23374264-nhs-computer-chief-failed-computer-studies-exam.do
Cameron struggling on the marriage/tax issue.
Is Ken not on board?
On TPS, Khammy is busy dodging questions on his shallow shamming about ‘marriage and the tax system’. He’s actually going to invite Tiger Woods over to star in a working party led by Zac Goldsmith and Boris Johnson.
Looks like the costs are being hushed up, but estimated at £3.5bn upto March 2008.
http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2009/09/22/237790/ministers-withhold-draft-report-on-nhs-it-scheme.htm
260 - “Whistleblowers within the immigration service have revealed for the first time that rising numbers of student visa applications have created a big global backlog because new Home Office rules left officials powerless to refuse fraudulent applicants.”
Why don’t they just say “No”?
261 - try http://www.bookbutler.co.uk you’ll find some there.
274.
“I had to write to Princess Anne, who at that time was “university visitor” there to appeal for him to be allowed to resit the exam, as initially he was refused permission.’”
(sigh) not another ‘royal family responsible for vast expenditure of public money’ story.
O/T
We are now almost half way into the 2009/2010 Barclays Premiership season, aka manager sacking time. My money, sadly, is on Gianfranco Zola at 5.5/1 with Victor Chandler.
Cameron very solid generally but quite evasive on Ashcroft.
Face goes red on schools and websites question.
Literally
278 - Cos stuff like this happens,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/3943489.stm
test
260. Truly breathtaking, even when they try, they mess it up. The visa scam with fake colleges is well known about, and here we have a brand new system which has more holes then the old system.
Does everything this government do, turn to sh*t?
We know who is going to suffer in this mess up, all those genuine students who come to british universities and carry out legitimate study, foreign students are a lifeblood of many universities, and these will suffer in a clampdown.
Both myself and my wife have both studied abroad at foreign universities, an exceptional experience, i wouldnt want students to miss out on this because of an incompetent government.
281.
“Why do we only put our educational background on the web if we went to state schools? I don’t understand the question,” says Khammy. But to his credit he’s off to sort out the Tory web-site to put in the Bullingdon legacy tout suit and even quicker than that.
“Andddyyyy!!! Why wasn’t Jimmy Young doing the interview??? It always worked for Margaret!”
254 and others -
Wage Slave
Michael is right. If you want people to read your posts, give up the silly names. It isn’t just right-leaning posters who scroll past at the first sight of Khamerion, Bliar, Zanu-Lab and other tired little jokelets.
282 - Loved his answer on state educated Fox and Hague, says they went to comprehensives.
“Eric Pickles went to school in Bradford”
On-topic; OGH is correct. If the Tories win comfortably in England and Wales Scotland becomes a side-show.
Worrying for Scotland is the scenario whereby the Tories gain no seats whilst being the third-party with one-fifth of the vote. Whilst many would say this is a systemic result from FPTP it is actually the result of an East-West Central-belt stitch-up (aided by the northern lib-dems).
As an English Democrat I look forward to the disenfranchisement of the Border Reithers [sp?]. Surely it’s is time to overturn the Hiberno-Pictish 11th/12th Century expansionism into Cumberland and Northumberland!
If the NHS IT scheme is abandoned then it should appear on New Labour’s gravestone.
The IHT avoider Ed Miliband trying to set higher taxes in the name of Climate Change.
286 - The government immigration policy seems to get worse and worse. Only a few weeks ago banning doctors, engineers, highly skilled highly educated immigrants, while not tackling the other end of the scale. Now as you say probably end up with lots of legit foreign students excluded, while maybe even more bogus ones still getting throw.
261 weathercock. Try this very useful and easy to use site :
http://www.abebooks.co.uk/
……………………..
MIKE SMITHSON :
I’m off shortly for the rest of the afternoon but will e-mail you the completed article this evening.
re 289. Where did you go to school? You always duck this.
throw -> through.
278.
Your question seems to suggest there is some kind of order within UKBA/ The Consular Service etc. There is an underground pyramid near the Thames where tens of thousands of foreign passports have been piled in a heap for years. Even people who might want to ‘go home’ can’t do because they have no travel documents. I wish I could post you a photo but y’know that Official Secrets thingummy.
287. wageslave
tim does nasty and funny. If I were you I would initially leave the multi-tasking alone and stick to nasty.
Your belief that these things ;-)can convert unfunny into funny is mistaken.
290. Gravestone? The bastards should be cremated just to make sure nobody resurrects them.
While the BBC Politics Show is so interested in the lack of transparency from David Cameron, could someone tell me why there is a similar lack of information on this webpage?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/politics_show/meet_the_team/default.stm
296. The OSA would not apply to such a circumstance.
299 - Well start you off, Jon Sopel good Grammar school boy, Christ’s College, Finchley.
294 .I answered it the other night.
State Primary.State Middle School.State Comprehensive.
Although as Dave seems to think “Up north” means state anyway I didn’t need to point it out.
297. To be honest I don’t think I’ve ever laughed at one of Tim’s posts.
Gabble can be quite funny at times - Usually unintentionally.
302 - You didn’t answer the bit about university and qualifications though. It is very simple, just a name thats all.
Now Nigel Lawson is on. |Is he perhaps showing us what happens when old ex-chancellors dye rather than die? They might as well have asked Nigella.
Memo to Ken Clarke: “Lose weight, by all means, but let the barnet go as nature intends.”
The entire IHT business reveals an obsession with money by Labour.
It’s not the money that the middle-class parents give their children as a key advantage. It’s an outlook. It’s a network. It’s a sense of opportunity.
How many journalists got into their profession because they didn’t have to worry about cash as an intern and because their parents had networks? How do you tax that? How do you make that “fair”?
I’m the son of a door-to-door salesman and a barmaid, who divorced when I was five. I don’t give a flying f*** about preventing people from passing on their money as they choose. Good luck to them. I’ll inherit twice the square root of naff-all. Doesn’t mean I want other parents to be forced to leave their assets to the Treasury.
Tim keeps banging on with the same theme - the insinuation that Cameron and co are doing this to enrich themselves. Newsflash, mate - if the PM wants to enrich himself, all he has to do is follow in Blair’s footsteps. We all know that. The impression we (or at least, I) get is that you’re desperately trying to get a meme picked up in the national press from a popular and well-viewed political blogsite. Obviously the Mirror isn’t enough to get market penetration.
I voted Labour in 2001 and have voted for all three major parties in the past. Labour has been pushing me away for some years - their inane and arrantly divisive and partisan posturing in recent months is pushing me away for decades to come. Obviously I’m not the type of voter Labour wants anymore.
So go for it, Labour fans. “Squeeze the rich”. Disregard the pointlessness of it (the “rich” aren’t plentiful enough to provide more than a fraction of a working welfare state, and the higher rate looks set to reduce the proportion of tax paid by the wealthy) - actually governing effectively is patently not the point. Increase IHT and try to blether on that holding a £325,000 house makes you a millionaire. Tell us that there are 40-odd countries in the G20, and we’re better off than one of them (”best-placed” …). Recite mindless platitudes about “Thatch” and the “tory years”, despite inaccuracies evident to anyone with a brain (I know, we’re not the type you’re after). Alienate me and many others for a generation and more to come.
Or stop sodding about with partisan pointless posturing and aim to govern effectively. One of the reasons I’ve been drawn to the Conservatives is that looking back to their last term in Government, they could have played a “scorched earth” game but instead bent over backwards to provide their adversaries with a golden inheritance. Brown is showing every indication of following the opposite route, and his cheerleaders here are jumping with glee.
Apologies for the rant - I’ve had enough of the trite crap pouring out (admixtured with whines about it being “A Tory site” and “the Tory herd” producing the exact opposite).
This whole; “who went to which school” and its sub issue about IHT bores me to tears. I’d sooner have a discussion about climate change personally.
307 - Seems the people who post on BBC HYS are of the same opinion. They stick something about climate-gate / AGW up there and the board goes mental, they stick Cameron the Toff up and they get a few pages of people at worst shrugging their shoulders.
298.
“If I were you I would initially leave….”
If you were me, I would leave immediately!! But your mis-numbering suggests that perhaps you might have a posting in ’suspension’. Possibly nasty rather than funny?
306 - Give that man a medal!
notme @286, Face it, there’s no way any government in any country is going to be able to come up with an immigration system that doesn’t either seriously frustrate the kind of immigrants the country wants or have a bunch of loopholes letting in immigrants it doesn’t. Any attempt to do this is going to be a labyrinthine bureaucratic mess. Government is crap at this kind of thing.
I’m speaking here as someone who’s exploited several different immigration loopholes over the years to do the jobs to get the skills I needed to start my company here and employ Japanese people. I couldn’t have done it if the system had worked as designed.
307 - With all of the rubbish which Labour say, perhaps if they stopped we could solve the problem of too much green house gases being emitted. If they stopped their obsession with IHT the earth might start to cool again, they are emitting too much carbon dioxide!!!
307.This whole; “who went to which school” and its sub issue about IHT bores me to tears. I’d sooner have a discussion about climate change personally.
by GIN December 6th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
“I’d sooner have a discussion about climate change personality.”
I thought that Miliband was begining to shout when he was challenged. Meanwhile Politics Show West has another save the planet by cycling, and links to more poltical activists campaigning for agreement at Copenhagen. Funny how there is so little on the scepticm.
313 - Doesn’t really mirror the latest polling does it?
Only one in two voters accepts man-made climate change, according to new poll
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/6737353/Only-one-in-two-voters-accepts-man-made-climate-change-according-to-new-poll.html
Ed Milipede being an arrogant little boy on the Politics Show.
302 That was night-shift timbot’s answer. I think Mike was checking to see if you all went to the same school.
306. Can you print that out and pop it through the door of Number 10?
314.
“Only one in two voters accepts man-made climate change”
That seems an amazingly high figure. How many of us truly like to accept responsibility for something which we find unpallatable which is largely to be laid at our own doorstep?
Presumably ‘Mr Green’ Khammeroen is coming back from Kabul by train through Iran, Iraq and Turkey?
Aww, everyone’s picking on the wee pretendy country again.
317.
“That was night-shift timbot’s answer.”
to night-shift Khambot’s question?
We are in for five months of fun, folks!
I know why people refer to Blair as “Bliar” even though I don’t necessarlity agree that Tony Blair deliberately lied about the Iraq issue.
I know why people refer to the Labour Party as ZaNuLab” (and variants thereof) even though I don’t necessarily agree that it is appropriate to compare the Labour Party with ZANU-PF.
I haven’t got a clue why wage slave refers to David Cameron as “Khamereoen” (or whatever it is), or what it is supposed to imply/ allude to/ refer to.
Can we have an explanation of what it means?
AMERICA is doubling the number of helicopters in southern Afghanistan, flying to the rescue of British troops who have complained that shortages in air support have left them vulnerable to Taliban roadside bombs.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6945981.ece
I went to a grant-maintained grammar school. Does that make me good or evil?
@321:
Simple: wage slave is mental.
On the climate change thing, it’s hard to draw any conclusions without seeing exactly how they asked the questions. Plenty of ways the wording could tilt the answer one way or another, and you could report what a lot of people probably think - that they’re not certain that it’s been proven, but that there’s a good chance it’s true and we should do something about it - in pretty much any way you like. (”AGW Unproven, voters say” vs “Voters support action to tackle AGW”…)
BTW the way the Telegraph article is worded it looks like they took the fact that the world is warming as a given when they asked the question. They probably shouldn’t do that, as a lot of the skeptics probably don’t believe that Global Warming is happening at all.
261.
voila!
http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=&title=lanny+budd&lang=en&isbn=&submit=Begin+search&new_used=*&destination=gb¤cy=GBP&mode=basic&st=sr&ac=qr
http://www.bookfinder4u.com/OutOfPrint.aspx?title=lanny+budd&author=&keyword=&publisher=&isbn=&binding=&dj=&fe=&sg=¤cy=GBP
OT - so much for Cancer targets in England, I got some disturbing news last night that a very dear friend had a bronchoscopy 2 weeks ago for a suspected tumour on his lungs and has been told he must wait until January for the result because of the Christmas holidays.
I looked at the stats for the relevant health authority and they had met all their targets, ticked their own boxes no doubt. 
321 - Apparently it’s something to do with circumcision.
Afternoon, my 2p on Marr - Osborne was very good [loved Marr almost calling him Chancellor - again], Darling was terrible - I’ve never seen him so badly prepared.
O/T. Hell hath no fury……… Good job, according to the Times, that the Commons troughers are not going to be judged by a jury of their Peers. ” A TORY peer has been caught using someone else’s home address to claim tens of thousands of pounds in expenses. Lord Taylor of Warwick, a 57-year-old former barrister, told the House of Lords that his main home was a terrace house in Oxford which he neither owned nor lived in. The property’s owner, Tristram Wyatt, a university academic, said he was unaware that his address had been used as the peer’s main home. Wyatt’s companion is the peer’s step-nephew, Robert Taylor, who admitted to The Sunday Times that his uncle has never lived at the house. “He doesn’t live here, he hasn’t lived here,” he said. Taylor has lived in his family home in Ealing, west London, since 1995. By claiming his address was outside the capital he accumulated more then £70,000 in subsistence expenses between 2001 and 2007. When confronted earlier this year, Taylor claimed he had lived at his mother’s home in the West Midlands during those years. However, this claim was false as his mother died in 2001 and her house was sold that year. His former wife has also confirmed that he lived in London, and nowhere else, until their separation in 2003. The disclosures will be looked at by the police team investigating peers and MPs. Taylor declined to comment last week.” And btw they’re all at it, Labour, Tory and Lib Dem and none of them is prepared to clean out the house. Only UKIP and the BNP will benefit.
320 Trying too hard. Again.
Toff-baiting, the dangerous sport that will hurt you too
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/minette_marrin/article6945877.ece
Good article.
323 - Really? Whereabouts?
Interesting discussion on BBC’s Have Your Say about the whole class issue.
From reading comments and seeing which are most recommended, it seems that people just don’t care where people went to school, and in fact prefer it if our politicians went to a good school.
It makes Brown look stupid and petty, as Cameron said.
Badly backfired.
330.
“All I want for Christmas is an ‘Enter’ key, an ‘Enter’ key, an ‘Enter’ key…”
337… for w1nston
337
been barred from No 10 Gabble?
321.
Just for John Loony a (only slightly doctored) Wiki reproduction:
“Some Khammeroen species are able to change their skin colors. Different Khammeroen species are able to change different colors which can include pink, blue, red, orange, green, black, brown,light blue yellow and turquoise.
Some varieties of Khammeroen…. use their color-changing ability to blend in with their surroundings, as an effective form of camouflage of their true position and nature. Color change is also used as an expression of the physiological condition of the Khammeroen (for instance when caught floundering on TV) and as a social indicator….”
336 - Add to that Gordo calling up to half the electorate moronic, flat-earth, science denying, illiterates…
340 - Er, yes we all get the chameleon reference. What nobody understands is the Khammereon reference.
341 (cont) I bet Tony is having a chuckle at Gordo this weekend, at his “how not to do politics to win masses” vote masterclass.
07
“would they begin to call it “Whigs””
No that will be reserved for Cameron in about 15 months time at the present tonsorial recession rate. One trusts he goes to a better supplier than Fabricant (what a marvellously apt name for a Tory pollicy-maker!)
by wage slave October 18th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
“absoluely nailed on”
like Fabricant’s mop?
by wage slave February 11th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Wage slave:incisive political comment since 2007
The trouble with Labour strategy, apart, of course, from being predicated on “5 more years of Gordon Brown”, is that they are focussing more or less exclusively on the Guardianista vote - a vote they have already largely lost to the Lib Dems anyway.
I reckon broadly speaking, the WWC and ethnics couldn’t care less about climate change. The people who get exercised about Eton and class are Guardianistas too.
323.
“I don’t necessarlity agree that Tony Blair deliberately lied about the Iraq issue.”
We could start up once more the age-old debate as to whether pathological narcissists present themselves and their actions in a good light irrespective of reality, and smarm up to their audience-of-choice, as a matter of deliberation or just as ’second nature’. Perhaps best not -otherwise we would be back to that hoary old monster the BliarKhammereon again.
Harman takes further leave of her senses: Harriet Harman attacks Tory tax break ‘for philanderers’
Much as I am opposed to tax breaks for married people (I don’t see why I, as a single bloke, should subsidise people some of whom are better off than me) this drivel about “stigmatising divorced and single women” is so much horsesh1t.
And “She will also accuse Cameron of implying that people whose personal relationships fail are responsible for the breakdown of society and for wrecking children’s lives.”
Well I am afraid that in many cases that happens to be true. People who choose to accept the responsibility of bringing up children, in my view, forfeit the right to play a completely free hand in their personal relationships.
Fraser Nelson:
“Things are shaping up nicely for Gordon Brown ahead of the Pre-Budget Report next week. The Tories were 17 points ahead on ICM in October – now it’s 11. Cameron would have a narrow majority on this basis but, given the margin of error, we’re back into hung parliament territory.”
…
“So the Tories seem to be going through one of their all-too-regular crises of confidence. The time is, alas, ripe for Brown, in his Budget, to make one last major strike.”
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5605673/brown-waits-to-strike.thtml
Actually the polling on climate science is rather encouraging for those arguing from the “take action” side. If you include a chunk of those in the “not proven” camp then you quickly get a massive majority for the “precautionary principle”.
The major problem politicians actually have to overcome is to convince people that they aren’t using Climate change as an excuse to raise money (except if that money is directly funnelled towards mitigating the effects eg. giving to the Developing World, spent on Flood protection etc).
The sort of thing which isn’t helped by Nick Clegg announcing policies of higher Green taxation to “pay for” taking people out of income tax.
People will support green taxation IMO if it is clearly hypothecated and/or clearly intended to change behaviour (with investment in eg. alternative forms of transport etc).
“The people who get exercised about Eton and class are Guardianistas too.”
Strange, given so many of their readers are privately educated upper middle class professional types. Maybe they are jealous they only got to go to a £12k a year school, rather than than a £25k a year one.
322 - whaääaggEE PsllÃVÈ: “We are in for five months of fun, folks!”
Politically, yes. In terms of the average standard of posts on this site, I fear not.
344.
You’re against consistent self-deprecation for the tonsorially challenged, then? I will continue to take the pee out of politicians who, along with their highly-paid advisors, have more policies to try to deal with their own ‘recession’ than they have for the nation’s.
348 When will people realise that UNS doesn’t work?
The Labour vote is only at the level it is because of Scotland which will have very little impact on the outcome of the election. In England, Labour support is much lower, especially in marginals, so UNS will break down.
348 - strange how the “margin of error” always favours Labour…
Any sign of the breakdowns from last nights polls?
“The PBR could be the best Tory PPB ever”
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100019021/the-pbr-could-be-the-best-tory-ppb-ever/
342.
“we all get the chameleon reference. What nobody understands is the Khammereon reference.”
You’ll just have to get Michael Gove to look up from his comics and pronounce on the topics then, won’t you?
349 - “is to convince people that they aren’t using Climate change as an excuse to raise money”
There is where the Tory recycling policy the other week fits in I suppose. You don’t have to believe or care about Climate change, its extent, reasons, solutions etc etc etc, somebody is going to give you money back if you do a spot of recycling.
Flip it the other way, the Labour approach of opposing more and more tax on those that don’t recycle / recycle enough and all those who question why get pretty pi$$ed off especially if they can’t recycle enough for some reason that isn’t there fault. Even those signed up to AGW get pi$$ed if they feel they are doing everything they can and still get “fined”.
352 trying too hard.
351 I don’t agree, Aaron.
I think the standard of posting is increasing, as is the volume.
Those who announce their presence with such ‘witticisms’ as Khamerion, Bliar, Cleggover and the like help us to skip over the dross.
Henry Porter in the Observer expresses my views on the Eton “controversy”:
“The class thing is giving the government benches something to laugh at. It is more about coining an amusing chant when you are three goals down than a serious attempt to describe the two main parties as homogenous class entities.”
“Attacking people because of their class or their aspirations is not a guaranteed way of winning public sympathy, because the better part of each one of us knows that class is an obstacle to understanding someone’s character, and is certainly no way of assessing a potential leader. And actually the Conservative leadership needs to be exposed to far more rigorous tests.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/dec/06/henry-porter-class-debate
353.
“In England, Labour support is much lower, especially in marginals, so UNS will break down.”
Completely true as a generalisation. But within England there is (and will be) also dramatic variation in ’swings’ even between neighbouring constituencies.
356 - Brother Brogan in recent weeks seemed to have gone off the reservation somewhat. Orders from higher up?
354 one poll since the conference season which we know was a heavily Labour sample and an outlier has Labour single digits behind and ‘things are shapong up nicely for Gordon Brown’
methinks it is little Fraser who is having the wobble.
Nelson = joke psephologist in the Rod ‘I do sneery cynicism so awesomely, me’ Liddle mode
360 - PtP, I would agree that up to now the standard has generally improved, and pb2 as well as guest articles have also been of a high calibre.
I do fear for the actual election though, as “bots”, trolls, and associated wind-up merchants infiltrate the site. Tempers and feelings will also run higher amongst the regulars. On the plus side, there’ll be lots of markets…
356. Old Labour back and back in style if we believe Mr Ben.
Still no sign of a schooling update to the Labour and Harriet Harman websites. It’s Sunday I suppose, so I’ll have a look tomorrow.
365 Yes, Aaron, it is customary for the Site to be ‘invaded’ at election times but the older hands are used to it and can generally spot the imposters without too much difficulty.
I was thinking of doing a little thread piece on the theme of ‘CATs - and How To Deal With Them’. Maybe it would be timely, just before the invasions start?
Aaron at 365,
“Tempers and feelings will also run higher amongst the regulars.”
-Coughs with a slightly embarrassed expression-
I’ll get me coat.
“55.12. I haven’t checked the exact details but I’d expect that Texas probably returned precisely zero Republicans over at least large period of not 4 elections but 40, between the Civil War and the Civil Rights debates.”
Hoover and Eisenhower (twice).
365. Mid-way through the campaign they’ll be a poll or two thats bad for the Conservatives - And PB will go into complete and total meltdown!
Re. 371. And thats just Wayne…
363 Oracle - Maybe I’m wrong, but my impression is that the Telegraph has switched tone quite significantly in the past few weeks. They no longer seem to be running predominantly anti-Cameron articles; instead they seem to taking fright at the prospect of a Hung Parliament and the damage to the country’s economy which would follow from that.
373. Richard Nabavi December 6th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
“the Telegraph has switched tone”
I’ve been thinking exactly the same thing, but wasn’t sure if it wasn’t just luck that I’d happened on articles taking that line.
I have the great advantage of having gone to a good minor public school, which, after I left, had a crisis of Catholic conscience in the mid 70’s deciding it’s ethos should have been the education of the many not the few (oddly enough when supply of boarders from armed forces overseas reduced significantly and all fee paying schools were suffering due to stagflation) and it began its change from a boys public school into its current RC mixed comprehensive status.
So I had the benefit of the high standard of education in a selective public school, the fun of wearing boaters & blazers and special prefects tie, tuck shops and school houses, but now could claim to have gone to a comprehensive.
Funny thing class.
358 Osborne attending B&Q resonates more with swing voters, than Cameron visting the artic circle, I suppose the latest focus group has informed them.
372 and SeanT
373/374 Wonder if Will’s brother getting sidelined by Gordo has anything to do with it
http://order-order.com/2009/11/04/gordon-wanted-to-set-an-etonian-to-fight-an-etonian/
Also, just imagine if what Guido had reported is true? Shame in way he got cold shouldered.
“Gordo’s official responses dreamt up on the playing fields of Eton”…..
Re: schooling - I was taught at the local comprehensive and have taught in a de facto secondary modern, a top state school and now a top private school.
Frankly, anyone who fixates on the education that someone has hasn’t been around enough to realise that it’s down to the individual, not the school, as to how well you do.
379 - “Frankly, anyone who fixates on the education that someone has hasn’t been around enough to realise that it’s down to the individual, not the school, as to how well you do.”
As discussed / shown in Freakonomics…
371.
“the Telegraph …. seem to taking fright at the prospect of a Hung Parliament and the damage to the country’s economy which would follow from that.”
You don’t think, GIN, that those cunning capitalists at the Hellobore are trying to start selling into a self-generated share slump on the back of this paper tiger scare, intending to buy back massively in the hung parliament Footsie melt-down and sell again at huge profit when the share shoot up againin the summer as the country wakes up to the fact that it will be the first time in 65 years that Britain hasn’t been run by a clueless tribal clique able to get away with tossing away public money hand over fist because they’re propped-up in Parliament by a loyal majority of disinterested sheep?
In other words, our country would be run like just about every other western democracy!
371, 381
The Telegraph
Heffer is reported to be leaving in a HUMPH due to missing out on the Deputy Ed’s job to Brogan.
And the Barclays have in my view woken up to the fact they have no political friends and Cameron owes them nothing and owes Murdoch a lot (the SUn).
So I suspect the Barclays realise they have been indiots (commercially)
SUNDAY FUNNIES:
New York Magazine celebrates Michelle Obama’s decision to wear clothes to the lighting of the White House Christmas tree:
http://hillbuzz.org/2009/12/05/mercifully-michelle-obama-decides-against-nude-tree-lighting-event/
This was a remarkable shift from her nude appearance at the Ted Kennedy funeral that was much celebrated in fashionista circles.
382
even Idiots..:-(
Just watching The Thick of It, I cant help but laugh out loud at the hairstyle of the Guardian journalist. It just encapsulates the pseudo intellectual liberals that run the paper. You could imagine half a dozen people at a Polly Toynbees dinner party sporting the same cut.
306 - great post
Stands up and claps
386 - 308 eben - numbering changed
318 - didnt day shift tim forget to put in the university?
O/T but surely a great opportunity for a few gags.
Man Utd spent over £100k on magicians and clowns in the past couple of years.
They also spent £1 million quid employing ACF Sports Promotions, which lists both United manager Sir Alex Ferguson and his wife Cathy as directors.
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/sport/631213/MANCHESTER-UNITED-SPEND-AMAZING-pound94M-IN-REDDIES.html
hat-tip BBC sport gossip column.
388 - Timbot unwillingness to discuss is academic achievements remind me a lot of Dolly Draper. IN Berkeley I said, IN Berkeley, on the PhD, I mean Masters program….
Oh dear Yvette Cooper seems to be rather bad at maths.
http://order-order.com/2009/12/06/quote-of-the-day-53/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+guidofawkes+%28Guy+Fawkes%27+blog+of+parliamentary+plots%2C+rumours+and+conspiracy%29&utm_content=Twitter
385 I know and the way he drinks his wine made me wince.
I had an art lecturer with exactly that look back in the 80s. I actually felt sorry for Tucker in the last episode when he was confessing to Terri about how crap he was feeling.
379. ukpaul: Frankly, anyone who fixates on the education that someone has hasn’t been around enough to realise that it’s down to the individual, not the school, as to how well you do.
I’d agree; though I’d add that a significant part of “the individual” refers to the parents rather than the child - after all, the attitude towards education that the parents have will dictate in large part the attitude the child has. IMO, of course.
“The people who get exercised about Eton and class are Guardianistas too.”
It’s a form of self-flagellation; therapy for 50p a day.
They think they are superior but hate others for thinking the same.
Just wondering if and how much the Climate Change Talks will drown out the PBR?
It can’t be coincidence that the PBR is occurring at the start of the talks, plenty of opportunity for the short attention span on much of the media to be diverted by the goings on / back room dealings in Copenhagen.
374 It will be a long time before the Telegraph is trusted. It’s a fair weather friend.
The Telegraph climate change poll (see 320 etc.) suffers from ‘bias to the middle’ questions - if you’re offered a range of four options, most people instinctively gravitate to one of the middle ones, wanting to seem reasonable and anyway not that sure. So 50% opting for the full “climate change is happening and it’s because of us” ticket is pretty high. It’s intellectually dishonest in this sort of poll to add up all the others and rpesent them as a homogenous view - it’s like saying “60% of voters are against the Tories” by totting up everyone who currently plans to vote for someone else, not necessarily because they hate Tories.
Shocking new evidence reveals how the Labour Government bullied the Cabinet Minister who told Tony Blair that the Iraq War was illegal.
Former Defence Secretary John Reid banned the head of the Army, General Sir Mike Jackson, from taking Attorney General Lord Goldsmith to Baghdad to investigate alleged mistreatment of Iraqi civilians by British soldiers.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1233570/Lord-Goldsmith-stopped-going-Iraq-John-Reid.html#ixzz0Yv0UvZTi
398. The Attorney General is *not* a cabinet minister, though he can sit in Cabinet.
Tapastry
On the subject of being an asset, we are all assets to the International Banking System, whether we understand that we are, or not.
In Western democracies in particular, that includes people who have never done a productive days work in their lives, although maybe for not much longer.
We are all to a varying degree assets to the banking system. This because our government borrows money from said system to house and feed etc virtually all of us, and then taxes everything that moves or not to pay for it. The rest is paid off by successive bouts of inflation. This borrowing is borrowed with interest. Get It?
HENCE SOCIALISM, or INTERNATIONAL COMMUNISM. Also why the owners, and investors in said system are indeed CORPORATE SOCIALISTS, or in other words COMMUNISTS, MURDEROUS CRIMINALS and HABITUAL LIARS. Not at all ordinary ‘nice’ socialists as betrayed by the BBC, but the worse possible examples of EVIL that exists on this planet of theirs. We are ALL nice socialist to one degree of another, including in my experience every single Conservative voter I have met. Which as a long standing CONSERVATIVE PARTY activist is very many indeed.
I have read many of your comments over the years and have found little to disagree with. In fact you seem like a person with a well above intelligence and degree of common sense. Therefore I have hope that you may one day understand what I am actually getting at, quicker then most.
Please THINK ABOUT IT, then do the research yourself. When you have acquired the TRUE facts of the matter, you may have a differing interpretation of these FACTS. Yet in many ways the well recorded and documented FACTS speak for themselves.
When you do finally reach true enlightenment, try not to panic. There really is a better place then this one, and you can be absolutely sure that when you arrive, none of the ‘people’ I have mentioned will be there. What is more, they know they will not.
On Topic: It depends how you look at Scotland. There are areas (like Glasgow) that are simply no-go areas for the Tories. So in those it matters not one jot if its SNP or Labour who win. In fact I’d suggest that any seat where the SNP are second they matter not one jot to the overall result. This is - of course - on the basis that the SNP will not prop-up a Tory govt in Westminster. In terms of local parties if there comes a tight or hung parliament what the NI Unionist parties do may be of more relevance. I asked last night, what would happen in those seats where the Tories are best placed to unseat Labour. Is there enough of anti-Labour feeling to allow the second-place party to hoover up votes? Glenrothes would suggest not, but of course Scotland is not one homogenous country.
I know it is fashionable to suggest the LD Scottish contingent will be reduced to a tandem bike but again they have some strong seats in the north of Scotland that would be absolutely earthquake-like if they fell to anyone else.
So on the general question, this election will come down to will the Tories win enough seats to form a government? As they seem unlikely to win much more in the way of seats North of the Border I believe it is what will happen in the Midland and the South that will determine this election. Wales may have more of a bearing, seeing as the Tories have had some better results there. For Cameron, Scotland is largely irrelevant in terms of him winning enough seats, whereas for Labour it could be.
Finally, there is an interesting perspective in the Spectator about the SNP, Labour, Tories and the future. It suggested that the Tories were happy to see Labour get a kicking from the SNP. The article argued that the more Labour dug into its heartlands and survived the more chance they had to remember how they won and come back to beat the Tories. My apologies I can’t find the link at the moment…
There’s going to be some really great books written when these guys can’t get jobs.
I dont know about Khamereoen, but is it true that Gids brother has converted to Islam?
Re 295. Thanks JackW will follow it up.
398.
Bully? John Reid???? Shome mishtake shurely!!!
He was right about one thing, though. Not a single sh1t was fired. Oh no, that was Iraq not Afghanistan!
394.
“They think they are superior but hate others for thinking the same.”
Not like any Tory posters on here. Oh no!
396 Surely that’s the best way to support a political party. When it is doing well running the country, or has good coherent policies when in opposition, then you support it. When it doesn’t, you don’t - you oppose it, or you support changes in personnel and/or policy.
Sometimes you support a political party because it is the least worst option.
What is wrong with that?
399.
“The Attorney General is *not* a cabinet minister, though he can sit in Cabinet.”
Judging from the recent reports that’s all they all do - just sit!
397 - True Nick. It is failure to recognise/deliberate misrepresentation of this that is IMO one of the biggest obstacles to mature political debate in this country.
It is the best argument for teaching basic statistics in schools (I think many don’t encounter stats until A-Level) and probably not just in Maths where the link to their crucial use (and misuse) in debate/argument is rarely made.
403 - Are weathercock and wage slave the same person???
test
409 – No, weathercock is sometimes amusing.
Bercow the opposite of a sex maniac
I find the reports that the 50p tax band is going to come in at £100k not £150k astonishing - economically if not politically. Freezing the IHT threshold at 325k will also be good for dividing lines and for IFAs but bad for the unwary.
With the personal allowance being removed for those earning £100k to £112k, if this 50% band is also brought in at £100k then people earning in that bracket will be facing marginal tax rates of 71% - so for every £1 earned, they will pay 71p tax…
This country is already being projected to slide out of the Top 10 economies, political shenanigans and economic stupidity look like speeding this up if Labour get their way.
Don’t tell ave it!!
409. Absolutely not!
The rumor going around is that George Osbornes brother has converted to Islam. Thats all.
#38 Wibbler On topic
“Stuart Dickson is right.
Scotland doesn’t matter much as far as determining the outcome of the GE is, but might significantly influence what happens after it.”
That is my view also.
413 - The LibDems have been advocating higher tax on 100k plus for 15 years.
In 1992 £100k
In 1997 £100k
In 2001 £100k
In 2005 £100k
They haven’t heard of inflation.
BTW one wonders if with the general attacks on high earners in the public sector, combined with new higher tax rates (which are unavoidable for public sector workers) if there will soon by a mini crisis at the top levels of public sector management. People can get decent levels of pay with little responsibility at 2nd or 3rd tier levels of management in the public sector. Why is anybody of talent going to be interested in going for the very top jobs with little extra gain, but significant added demands on time, stress etc?
414 - That’s better
400. Life’s too short. I vote for heaven.
BTW completely O/T - just skimming the Alliance manifesto from 1987. One example of how the quangoisation of Britain has removed so much the political discourse:
“Forestry policy should place more emphasis on broad-leaved species, and larger scale afforestation should be subject to a special system of planning controls;”
Do parties have “Forestry policies” these days? ;0
416 - poor things alex maybe they would be attracted to something like this..
Salary and allowances
EU civil servants work 37.5 hours a week, though they are theoretically available 24/7. They receive a minimum of 24 days of leave a year (maximum of 30), with additional leave on grounds of age, grade and distance from home country. The lowest grades receive between €2,325.33 and €2,630.96 each month, while the highest grade receives between €14,822.86 and €16,094.79 a month. This salary is taxed by the EU, rather than at the national level. Taxation varies between 8% and 45% depending on individual circumstances. This is paid into the Community budget.[17]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Civil_Service
Some new seats up at Ladbrokes today;
Bassetlaw
Labour 5/6
Conservatives 5/6
Liberal Democrats 100/1
Erewash
Conservatives 4/7
Labour 5/4
Liberal Democrats 100/1
Sherwood
Conservatives 4/7
Labour 5/4
Liberal Democrats 100/1
Telford
Conservatives 8/15
Labour 11/8
Liberal Democrats 100/1
UKIP 100/1
Angus
SNP 8/15
Conservatives 11/8
Labour 100/1
Liberal Democrats 100/1
Dumfries & Galloway
Conservatives 1/4
Labour 5/2
Liberal Democrats 100/1
SNP 100/1
Perth & North Perthshire
SNP 4/7
Conservatives 5/4
Labour 100/1
Liberal Democrats 100/1
398 - I wish I could feel surprised, but I can’t
Truly the worst government of my lifetime.
421 - I wouldnt put stolen Monopoly money on SNP for Perth @ 4/7.
The SNP approved incinerator planning scandal is turning out to be a slow burner.
420 - I’m not suggesting that people are hard done by. That doesn’t change the fact that it is a problem for the public sector if talented people in the sector opt out of pursuing the top jobs.
The issue isn’t the individuals themselves losing out. It’s the fact that the public services, in which we all have an interest, will lose out.
High tax rates on the wealthy aren’t generally opposed because they will disadvantage the rich. They are opposed because the rich will leave, and the country will lose out on taxes they would otherwise have collected.
There are good reasons (whether you agree with them or not) why public sector salaries rise exponentially at the very highest levels.
424 - alex, I was suggesting that there is an alternative route and I imagine those that can would be tempted by both the remuneration and favourable tax regime that comes from working for the EU Comm.
Classic fvckwittery from Mr Lanmy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8396234.stm
from the article
“….Meanwhile, university students would be required to carry out 100 hours of community service in recognition of the subsidy the state pays towards their education - estimated at £8,000….”
does anybody know what criminal offence is required to be committed to attract a sentence of 100 hours of community service?
http://order-order.com/2009/12/06/public-school-match/
Reap what you sow.
Seems the #10 spin team are having a busy afternoon,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8397854.stm
NHS IT system to be scraped has become just scaled back now.
i follow scottish politics in particular, but clearly the tories will probably gain more seats in luton on its own than in scotland.
in a 2 party squeeze the tories will get pummelled, except in some rural heartlands.
there is a solution. cameron to admit that thatcher was WRONG. that putting in th epoll tax ins cotland was not the right thing to do and dewnying scotland’s true economic position in the 70’s wa sless than honest.
finally, state that they would at the very least instigate all aspects of the calman report prior to any referendum, as that will negate the need for one. accepting that if there is no chnage to the status quo then the scots have the right to demand further autonomy which is clearly what the concensus would prefer at this time.
some HONESTY will go along way. accept closing the mines, ravenscraig and at least contributing to the car plants at linwood and bathgate closing was not what scotland needed and the tories will learn from those mistakes.
without this admittance of INTENTIONAL WRONGDOING people will simplistically assume the tories are just the same as before and one step too far to vote for as they look after the rich in england and do not care about scotland. they are doing a good job of putting that view across at this time, hence why they are on their lowest vote in recent history at around 15%. although to be fair those 15% will turn out so i reckon that is closer to 18% in a GE. whereas labour’s voters will stay at home pro rata more often, watching whatever is on the box on a thursday night.
Mail on Sunday comment is on 2 subjects, climate change and the Speaker and his wife.
“The Prime Minister’s heavy-handed dismissal of doubters as ‘flat-earthers’ shows that, as in so many other things, he is painfully slow to absorb new trends in thought and knowledge.”
Re the speaker
“How did we get to such a farcical position? As in so much else, the fault lies in New Labour’s systematic demolition of British tradition, its hollowing-out of ancient institutions and the theft of the powers of Parliament by both Downing Street and the European Union.
Amid the abandoned grandeur and majesty of Westminster, Mr and Mrs Bercow look increasingly like children let loose in a palace, dwarfed by the robes they have dressed themselves up in and perching unconvincingly on a throne far too big for them. So does the Government which is ultimately responsible for the shrinking of Britain.”
426 - Having the best public sector workers in the UK going off to work for the EU is good for the UK, how?
Again, I repeat, this is not about whether individuals are hard done by, but whether UKplc gets the best available directors.
431 - oops link
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1233486/MAIL-ON-SUNDAY-COMMENT-A-change-good-climate-debate.html
427
So what happens when students, not renowned for meekly obeying state commands, refuse? I look forward to enrolling and finding out.
427 - “national army of volunteers”
Not quite volunteering if you are forced to do so is it, and if Demos have their way they have to pay for the pleasure too!
426, I’m all for a pay freeze during the ‘next period of time’ to quote one of Gordon’s favourite phrases. As you say though, there are good reasons for rewarding people appropriately at the higher echelons of the civil service.
428 - Guido misses the point again.
Luckily we have Daves red face alarm to tell us the Tories are extremely sensitive on this issue.
“The £450m cost of the scheme”
Is it just me or does that sound a crazy amount of money to set up a voluntary scheme? How many £100k a year managers and £50k diversity officers do they need?
429 - “scaled back” just means, “keep what we’ve done”.
Never mind that GP use of IT used to lead the world, until the Govt forced everyone to use “approved” systems to enable integration, never mind that Hospital IT remains a complete disaster zone, in part due to the need to satisfy national requirements rather than working towards locally appropriate procurement solutions.
The whole things a complete disaster, with a small number of “successes” (which the govt will no doubt emphasise) which could have been achieved at a fraction of the price.
Guido has posted on Marr and Darling’s fee paying schooling and wonders why it was not mentioned as having any political significance.
http://order-order.com/2009/12/06/public-school-match/
423 Ghost
The SNP approved incinerator planning scandal is turning out to be a slow burner.
428 - Guido must have been reading PB.com
tim, luckily we have you as our canary in the mine to allow us to tell when there is an effective policy. Your endless chirping and fluttering is a sure sign the tories are onto something.
Grow up.
443 - Your lack of instincts make it a certainty that Cameron will support the Demos plan you refer to.
Fancy a bet?
I saw this and thought of tim…
http://www.tts-group.co.uk/Product.aspx?cref=TTSPR835444&rid=134&cid=14
432 - you misunderstand me, I’m agreeing with you. I was just trying to point out that top people do have a choice.
A tax Blitz that reveals Labour’s mistakes in full
If Labour’s 1992 manifesto was a tax bombshell, then this PBR is Dresden. Everyone, both rich and poor, is in the firing line, and there is no space here to analyse every alleged proposals, so I shall limit myself to two proposals.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5606358/a-tax-blitz-that-reveals-labours-mistakes-in-full.thtml
yes I fancy a bet £100 that the tories will have an overall majority at the next election. As you are confident that Dave is crap and in the wrong you will have no problem giving me that bet at 2/1. Fancy it?
I still notice the silence from the resident IHT expert about the level of indexation on IHT. It is fiscal drag which has caused Labour the pain isn’t it?
Does anyone know who the Mail wanted as Speaker?
Still, the sniping puts to bed the pathetic cries of Martin’s defenders that the Mail was anti-Scottish and anti-working class.
439 - I heard a crazy thing from a A&E worker the other week, would be good to know if true.
According to this particular person, Ambulances are fitted with a proprietary sat nav systems, telling the drivers the nearest available x hospitals. However, it has no clue if the hospital selected can actually deal with the patient’s problem.
427. “….Meanwhile, university students would be required to carry out 100 hours of community service in recognition of the subsidy the state pays towards their education - estimated at £8,000….”
Speaking as a university student, they can whistle.
The person I spoke to said for instance they have had numerous heart attack victims who need immediate life saving treatment turning up at at particular A&E, even though they have no facilities to deal with them. In one case it was the third hospital they had driven to with the same patient.
450 - Widdecombe the virgin I’d imagine.
449 - Don’t be silly.
Errh spam filter got my question.
In reality, it is a dead easy task to have a small database link to the system signaling if a hospital would be suitable for certain very common pick-ups, in the same way as you can look at see in supermarket has a 24hrs pharmacy etc.
446 - thanks Kristin, always much better being in agreement!
I’d better get learning French
454, tim, presume your 449 response should be to me. I realise that £100 pounds is a lot of benefit money but surely someone as cocky as you randomly offering spurious stupid bets should occasionally take one up?
452
If that silly and illiberal idea ever sees the light of day, I’ll be enrolling.
456 - just looking at the Goethe-Institut in Glasgow.
427 - It would certainly put community sentences in a different light!
And the defendent is sentenced to the choice of 50hrs community service, or university!
457 - I’ve lots of bets on here, usually with people who understand the process.
Look at the bookmakers odds.
460 - that’s the problem with dumbing down. At least an old Etonian would understand the meaning of ‘volunteer’.
459 - I reckon i’ve a chance of learning French. No chance of learning Glaswegian.
463 -
462 - Hasn’t Dave already proposed something similar?
I’m sure he’ll support a scheme like this.
tim, surely a “gambling” man such as yourself should be happy to take free money when it is available. I mean you are sure that Dave is crap and a one man band therefore Labour will win an overall majority.
“..457 - I’ve lots of bets on here, usually with people who understand the process….”
Another lie tim. You have a few bets, but you offer many, many more spurious bets in some pathetic attempt to justify your position.
466 - don, you’re making a fool of yourself.
408 - agreed, alex. I was chatting to Tony McWalter, former maths lecturer and Labour MP (the one who stumped Tony Blair with the question: “What is your guiding philosophy?”) and one of the (ex-)Commons bridge team. He said that he’d organised an adjournment debate on the level of maths ignorance, and struggled to find anyone else in the Commons who had a maths qualification.
Charles Clarke is organising a “celebrating mathematics” event that I’m attending to talk about how maths can lead to a good career, but the lack of understanding of basic statistical concepts is a real issue both in the Commons and in the wider population. People tend to rtetreat behind the “lies, damned lies and…” mantra and just give up, or they believe whatever figures suit them.
468
oh the irony !
tim, are you sure that it is me that is making a fool of himself.
You consistently offer badly phrased, badly defined or plain stupid bets, in the full knowledge that nobody will take you up on them.
You very, very occasionally actually enter into a bet with anyone.
469 - Shame under your government kids are less likely than ever to be taught maths and science by somebody with a degree, let alone a good degree, in those subjects.
472 (cont) And we have done in the past the reduction in UK students doing PhDs, especially in maths and science, at the top research universities.
466.. you are right he did..
compare and contrast ..
Nov 10 2009 ( doesn’t mention university students though )
“The Tory leader promised to strengthen existing civic institutions and highlighted his plan for a national citizens’ service, bringing together 16-year-olds in a three-week programme where they could learn what it meant to be a social entrepreneur.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/10/david-cameron-big-society-speech
and
Dec 06 2009
“Mr Lammy said: “I have long campaigned for a national civic service and I hope the recommendations from this excellent report find their way into the next Labour manifesto.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8396234.stm
469 lol Palmer and the Water Buffalo and the December ‘Maths putsch’ - ‘Celebrating Maths’ indeed - we know what you are up to
2 + 2 = treachery, derring-do and a Water Buffalo in number 10!
*Recorded Wagers*
I’m thinking of doing a short thread piece on these. I guess it may be of interest to add up the total number of bets and list the most prolific punters. I haven’t done this yet but I’m pretty sure Tim would head the list.
447. The problem that Darling has got is that tax receipts have gone down. There’s just a limit on what people can be taxed and that limit is coming pretty soon. The higher the salary you have the more possible it is to reconstruct your income stream to reduce your tax bill (legally I should add). Indirect taxes (like VAT) hurt the poor more.
The only way forward is to reduce public spending. It’s easy for Cameron, he can, on the 3rd day he is in office, call in the IMF. He can blame gordon and darling and then say “public sector salaries will be cut by 10% across the board immediately, capital spending frozen for a year” and no-one will blame anyone but Gordon / IMF . That would in one fell swoop get rid of a lot of the problem. Anyone in the public sector who objects can go and find a job in the private sector.
NPMP - There is a 12.65% chance that Labour will get Most Seats next GE.There is a 31% chance that the Conservatives will not have an Overall Majority.
Try expressing those two concepts in words. It just doesn’t work.
469
Nick Pamer
afterover a decade of Labour spin and the announcing and reannouncing od spending, is it any surprise people mistrust statistics , especially Govt ones. Only now that the OFNS is independent of Govt is any sort of trust being brought back.
I think David Lammy deserves 100 hours community service for this performance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWwyVQ2IQuE&feature=related
476, ptp, that would be very interesting. However what would be even more interesting would be the number of “bets” that tim offers that have absolutely no chance of being taken up. This being a prime example
443 - Your lack of instincts make it a certainty that Cameron will support the Demos plan you refer to.
Fancy a bet?
by tim December 6th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
When the article I linked to had in the very loosest terms an example of Camerons own (voluntary) version of the policy that he had already published and therefore as he well knew had no chance of being taken up.
479 Palmer
After over
NPMP
Or how about the difference in tax rate on benefits in kind for normal people paid the same as an MP and the MP themselves (40%)
or the difference in conviction percentage rates for benefit fraud (100% normal population, 0% MPs)
479 - Thick of It last night comes to mind. What was an honest mistake, albeit driven by a spin operation, is so mistrusted that is immediately thought is that it has been some sort of fiddle / some sort of cover up. You don’t get that kind of reputation by accident.
As a life-long, Tory-voting resident of Luton South, I think it is highly unlikely that Labour will lose Luton South.
Firstly, the 2005 Labour vote was distorted because many Moslem voters voted Lib-Dem as an anti-Iraq war protest. These are likely to vote Labour next time.
Secondly there has been a steady increase in the number of immigrants (who are probably Labour supporting)coupled with an exodus of middle class Troy voters to the adjacent South Beds seat
Thirdly, I suspect that in 2005 many moderate Labour voters either abstained or voted Lib-Dem in protest at the universally loathed (even then) Margaret Moran.
Luton North is a more likely capture although the sitting Labour member (Kelvin Hopkins)has a strong personal vote
Did I miss this the first time around, or is this new info on Climate-gate?
“Almost a month before they were posted on a website popular with climate-change sceptics, the hacked data was sent to a BBC weatherman…The BBC has now confirmed that Paul Hudson received some of the documents on October 12. But no story was broadcast or printed by Mr Hudson or the corporation.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/copenhagen/article6946281.ece
Billion pound NHS computer project could be scrapped, Chancellor says
“the Government may have to pay out millions to break existing contracts if it cancels the project.”
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/pbr/article6946336.ece
You don’t think that maybe the Tories will be left to pick up that particular problem do you? Bit like the ID contracts signed in the recent past.
486, heard about a few days (weeks?) ago. Didn’t make a big splash. I think someone here said Hudson had passed them along to another fellow, who was Milipedish in his zealotry.
469 Nick P - I agree entirely with that. It has been a major failing of educational policy for decades that basic statistical concepts are not taught to all children. After all, the concepts aren’t complicated, even if the maths behind specific tests of significance is.
Ok I’m expecting the PBR to be another total disaster for Labour and that the New Year will see another cold blast for their poll ratings.
Who will offer me what odds on Labour polling 23% or less in a poll (proper ones recorded in UK PollingReport) by the end of 31st January?
488 - Not sure what the hacker was thinking even bothering to send it to the BBC. Doesn’t really fit the BBC narrative on this issue…
452 - as another university student, I heartily agree with you!
So let me get this straight, Labour’s latest vote-winning plan to force young people to do hundreds of hours of unpaid work, and then levy extra interest on student loans?!
Way to lose the entire student vote, guys.
489 Richard Nabavi - It used to be worse. Everyone who met me socially just naturally assumed I had a great mathematical education.
Nothing could be further from the truth. I was taught negative probability by an ex-con who had read about it in Wandsworth and introduced to the joys of Pascal’s Triangle by the owner of a snooker hall.
Anyone who could count up to a hundred circa 1960 had a massive edge !
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5606358/a-tax-blitz-that-reveals-labours-mistakes-in-full.thtml
“Darling looks likely to prolong the VAT cut until at least February”
Why would that be then? Let me guess something about not inhibiting the return to growth…nothing to do with a GE.
484. Spooky PB references in The Thick of It. After tim’s starring role in previous weeks, last night seemed to be channelling SeanT.
ANECDOTE ALERT
Not sure if stjohn had retired before I responded to his Alistair Darling query last night, but I have just had an update that there are Palmeresque polling returns for the Tory candidate in some of the less favourable wards.
Freudian comment on the news earlier. Alistair Darling will deliver his last Pre-Budget Report (long pause) before the election…
Here is another sense in which Scotland “matters” (in the sense of being a significant factor).
By my background & inclinations I ought to be a fairly safe Labour voter.
This year has shown us all quite a bit about the Scottish Labour Party in Glasgow. To be blunt, the state of its tribal heartlands are not an inviting showcase of Labour’s success over the long term.
481 I’ll do the article then, Don, but if you don’t mind I’ll leave to others the W.O.T. [War On Tim.]
494 - If true, then that is going to be truly horrific. The jobs market is in paralysis (I should I know I’m still trying to get back in). Shoving up NI is the most economically illiterate idea you can have when we need the private sector to be creating jobs. Though one of the comments is spot on. If the Tories win, promise to throw open the books. Expose the spending, waste that have got us into this mess. It will make it much easier to push through the needed cuts…
Two cabinet ministers today said David Cameron’s Eton education should not be held against him after the Conservative leader described attacks on his background as “spiteful”.
…
Eric Pickles, the Tory chairman, welcomed what Darling and Cooper had said. “It has taken five days for Labour’s class war to fall apart,” he added.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/dec/06/davidcameron-conservatives
ptp, thanks will be interesting to see some actual figures rather than peoples feelings about them.
As for the other stuff rarely respond to tim, only did this time because I forgot to put my usual “by tim” filter on after doing a refresh.
495 - Wouldn’t it have been possible for a bit of an earlier warning to be provided? Obviously retailers et al have all been campaigning for a delay, but i would presume that plans for implementation are pretty far advanced by now!
AT AROUND 4am this morning, after he had saved the world twice, fed the cat, spent a happy 20 minutes daydreaming about David Cameron being bullied at Eton and deployed some more soldiers to Afghanistan, Prime Minister Gordon Brown remembered there was one last letter he had to write… to that new chap in Wales. Wales on Sunday has obtained an exclusive copy.
Dear Carmine,
It is with the greatest of regret that I write to offer you and your… ah, little slip up there, sorry for that. I was having this daydream about David Cameron being held upside down over a toilet bowl after I’d peed in it.
Still, maybe you are feeling a bit down. After all, Rhodri gets to be First Minister through a decade of unrivalled growth in public spending (that was me by the way) and you take over just as the poop hits the proverbial.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/columnists/2009/12/06/letter-to-carwyn-what-might-gordon-say-91466-25327327/
501 - Pickles misses the point.
This is the point
But George Osborne, the shadow chancellor, also launched a damage limitation exercise by suggesting that the proposed Tory inheritance tax cut would not happen until 2012 at the earliest.
Damage limitation.
As Dave said of Pickles schooling, he was educated “In Bradford”.
501. Guardian seem to be on tim’s wavelength on red face issue. they have used a photo of DC in a dark suit with a red poppy and pinked up his face three notches in Photoshop to match the poppy. Cunning.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/dec/06/davidcameron-conservatives
501 - those 2 had private educations too I think?
Some positioning going on for the leadership post election?
Got to have something to occupy them in opposition.
500 - Raising NI is not the best way to cut public spending either - it being one of the few taxes that the public sector pays!
Good job “we” are in control of Europe
Stitch-up? Now France excludes Britain from special talks on EU farm spending
France has triggered a fresh row over EU power-broking by excluding Britain from key-Europe wide talks on the future of farm subsidies to be held in Paris this week.
</i
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/6737797/Stitch-up-Now-France-excludes-Britain-from-special-talks-on-EU-farm-spending.html
423
It might have been except that when I was in Perth last week the local paper said that the incinerator had been turned down!
Still the “slow burner” was good for a pun!
Fact is that MORI (29TH November) puts the NATS on 34 per cent (highest since 2005) and the Tories on 15 per cent (lowest since 2005).
The odds on the NATS in Perth and Angus look decent bets.
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