Can he go on avoiding the C-word?
January 3rd, 2010
Is it smart to deny the blindingly obvious?
The interviewing trait where Mr.Brown is at his most vulnerable is when he seeks to deny something that is clearly the case. Less charitable people than me might use the word “porkie”. The problem is that he does this when it is so obvious
Thus when it was apparent almost to the entire country in October 2007 that a factor in deferring the planned early election was the sudden change in Labour’s polling position Brown’s refusal even to recognise this was the low point in that game-changing Andrew Marr interview.
Last June when the whole Westminster village and more knew that Ed Balls was not being moved to the Treasury because of Darling’s steadfastness Mr. Brown totally denied it - a move that made him look shifty and reduced his standing further with the media.
The same is happening, as we saw in today’s Marr interview, over whether there will be cuts - something that, again, is totally clear to most politicians and commentators including the majority of his own cabinet and something to which he steadfastly refuses to admit.
If he thinks this means it will go away he’s very much mistaken. For everybody who will have public encounters with him in the coming months is going to press the point even harder. He needs a plausible answer that is believable
The ridiculous thing is that in each case it is so much easier to recognise what the widespread perception is and respond accordingly.
Surely there’s somebody who’s advice on this he’ll listen to?
Mike Smithson
MessageSpace Advertising
He’ll try, but no he can’t
mebbe first?
1st?
First?
close. But no cigar.
FPT
581. TSE
Pah £28 billion that’s just chump change these days! Ole Gordo spends nearly 4 times more on giant whirligigs!
He might. I can’t…
“Can he go on avoiding the C-word..?”
Of course he can and will, he is fundamentally a dishonest, partisan, nasty piece of work that puts himself and his party before the good of the country.
6 - Ole Gordon?
Now, I understand what Spanish Practises mean.
He will in the end, but it will too late for him by then.
Wow, I thought it would April at the earliest before I came first.
I think Mike Smithson is in love with Browns ugly mug.
I asked for a new thread with a different photo.
Less charitable people than me might use the word “porkie”.
Mike forgets that Brown’s legendary detachment from the truth has created a whole new genre of delusionary dishonesty known as:
THE BROWNIE
(first coined by and hat-tip to the Spectator)
THE BROWNIE will now live on forever in British political mythology as part of Gordon Brown’s magnificent legacy to the British People……
I believe our glorious Leader (Peace Be Upon Him), remember in October 2007, when he said he wasn’t going to call an election because he said I wanted to share his vision, and not because he’d not win.
Believe in Gordon
The election campaign has the makings of a Howard-Paxman classic:
“Mr Brown, will you introduce cuts if you win the election?”
“Will you introduce cuts?”
“Will you introduce cuts?”
“Will you?”
Again, will you make cuts?”
I’ll try again - will the other parties be the only ones to make cuts if they win the election?”
“And Labour will make no cuts?”
“You are promsing me, here and now, that under a fourth term of this Labour Govt., you will make no cuts?”
“No cuts?”
“None?”
“Prime Minister, why have you got your fingers crossed behind your back?”
Brown looks like he is lying on the rare occasions that he says something vaguely honest. When he is lying, its completely transparent. It will do for him and his party, and rightly so.
The episode over Spain being in the G20 is a perfect example of Brown lying.
12 - This pic is great for me, I look at it, and it helps keep me from thinking of thoughts of lust
The man has his comfort zone, he finds it hard to stray from it.
No matter how stupid or dishonest it makes him look the message (or variations of it) will continue.
This will of course hurt Labour but he really doesn’t care about others.
I don’t think he can actually face up to what he has done to the country, he hated people disagreeing with him in his early days at the treasury, the mess is a whole lot bigger now and I am not sure he could cope emotionally with knowing he has to take a lot of the blame.
Gordon Brown, Our Great Leader.
1. Shifty
2. A liar
3. A disaster
4. Cares nothing for the Country
5. Cares everything for his own position
Can we not get rid of this man who we wish to vomit?
This is precisely why Darling’s fantasy PBR, and the interviews which followed it, were such a disastrous strategic mistake by Labour. Or, more precisely, the continuation of Labour’s disastrous strategic mistake of late 2008 - the denial of the reality of the step-change in the public finances. Tax revenues have collapsed, and there is no realistic prospect of them recovering any time soon.
Mandelson and Darling had apparently made some progess in getting Brown to acknowledge reality in the weeks leading up to the Labour Conference, but Brown has now reneged on that, and Darling has joined him.
Labour will be pressed again and again on this during the electoral campaign, and they will have no credible answer: there is no denying the arithmetic. And whilst Brown might get away with ‘Brownies’ in some soft-soap interviews, it is very unlikely that he will be given such an easy ride in every interview. We can therefore expect some blow-up or storm-out at some point during the campaign.
Anthony Wells at UK Polling Report:
‘Conservative polling in Scotland’
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2396
These pictures of Brown remind me of those inappropriate adverts about hard stool remedies that we had to endure over Xmas.
CLASSIC BROWNIE No. 1
“Yes, I did consider holding an election. Yes, I looked at it,” Mr Brown said. “My first instinct, if I were honest with all of you, was that I wanted to get on with my job of putting my vision of what the future of the country was to the people of the country - and deliver on it before there was ever an election.
“But I did listen to people. I looked at what people were saying. I heard from candidates in marginal seats - those candidates in marginal seats were telling us we would win the election.
“I happen to believe we would win at any time. I made my decision on this basis: I wanted more time to set out my vision for the future of the country. We had had a summer dealing with issues from foot and mouth to floods to terrorism to economic and financial crisis.
Surely there’s somebody who’s advice on this he’ll listen to?
Where’s Nick P MP when you need him?
A safer pair of hands will be harder to find than those belonging to Nick.
16. What do you mean that ” that he looks like he’s lying” Maggie? He IS lying.
This PM cannot tell the truth even when its staring him in the face.
23 - other than spend spend spend and mass immigration has Brown actually set out a vision?
Brown may try to fudge saying cuts by phrasing the term in some fuzzy language. eg “After the election we may have to make some temporary readjustments in government spending levels in relation to certain areas of the public sector resulting in transient amendments to the levels of services offered in some sectors.”
Or it may be “Any reduction in spending will not affect public services and will still leave levels of public spending on the NHS and Education higher than they were under the Tories who want to close your local school and hospital and cancel Christmas”
I find Mike’s last question interesting
“Surely there’s somebody who’s advice on this he’ll listen to?”
Well, you might think so. I have no great knowledge of media relations, but I assume he has access to any number of highly-skilled advisers - Either they can’t tell him he’s looking foolish, or he just won’t listen.
It’s perhaps a bit of an insight into his mind. To him, cuts are bad, therefore Tory, therefore a Labour government will not make cuts. Even cuts will not be cuts, because this is a Labour government.
C4 News item on hung parliament says that David Owen was “Health Minister 1970-76!”
Nothing Brown does is smart
A CUT is one letter short of what Gordon Brown has aspired to all his life……
“I wanted to get on with my job of putting my vision of what the future of the country was to the people of the country - and deliver on it before there was ever an election. ”
That reminds me, have we had that yet?
C4 News item on hung parliament says that David Owen was “Health Minister 1970-76!”
Strange how Brown haters are the mirror image of Cameron haters. Cameron is seen as false and shifty by some people on this site and Brown is also branded in the same way. Perhaps they both demonstrate the adage that ‘to err is human.’ We all tell lies and we all are shifty at times.
Whoops double post! Sorry!
Just to repost what a Guardian columnist has to say about Labour
“the infamous memory of Britain’s New Labour governments, their love of ill-founded war and their authoritarian fight, undertaken with greater effectiveness than the Luftwaffee, to undermine those civil liberties and hard-won traditions of freedom”
(Via Harry’s Place)
Labour, destrying YOUR country and your freedoms since 1997 (read “taking Liberties” if you get a chance)
I think the story today that will have the biggest long term impact, is Ken Clarke refusing to rule out a rise in VAT.
I think Labour will sense blood, and end up damaging themselves badly as they did following Andrew Lansley’s cuts gaffe last year.
I find the debate here on PB about Browns attitude to cuts and the word cut laughable.
It’s time to face the truth:
Our PM is a slithering, slimy thing, that would if it were possible cancel the GE and embark on a Labour dictatorship.
I’m not too sure that that’s what is being planned.
32. David
have we had that yet?
Of course we have - it’s the recession, that £1 Trillion debt, unemployment, evictions, bankruptcy, company failures, state dependency, he’s handed us over EU serfdom and not to forget all those wars under Labour.
Brown’s achieved everything he set out to. Really I don’t know why he’s bothering anymore - his life must be complete now he has wrecked this country.
The Prime Minister and his advisers could do a lot worse than go the website http://www.labourfuture.net and digest the articles
Plato Thanks for your advice and links on previous post.
36
Harry’s place also point out the idiocy of that remark.
FPT - 600 To all who posted on the subject, I now want a fishing cat.
Can’t you just use a regular one, staple gills on and tie the line to its tail?
My vet is next to the Chinese restaurant - I suggested that they could jointly advertise with the slogan “Either way you get your cat back”….
- I should add that I have had cats and love them - it’s just my evil twin Skippy’s warped sense of humor
34. Sirus - you speak for no one but yourself!
38 - Well Richie Rich wanted Gordon to postpone the election until the economy was back on its feet.
38. I’m not too sure that that’s not what is being planned.
Mikes post is pretty spot on, and watching the news coverage today highlights why Browns inability to be honest on this subject is costing Labour such a chance.
There’s no point denying that there’s some heavy choices to be mede (I read the Tories as about to cull classroom assistants in Primary Schools) but no one believes Brown while he looks shifty and refuses to acknowledge all but the pre ordained dividing lines.
Watching ITN News tonight both exposes the problem and the opportunity for Labour.
There’s Dave in a Maternity ward holding a newborn baby and making sure the reporter hears him say “it makes me want another one”.
Thats the agreed phrase, he always uses it and it doesn’t take a genius to spot the subliminals.
Shallow.
Then we move on to Clarkes statement about VAT which is obviously honest.
The Tories then put up Chris Grayling, seemingly in a red velvet coffin which, as he’s clearly a dead man walking, suits him in a hammer horror/large conjurer filmed in the “assistant about to be sawn apart” backdrop denying that the Tories have any plans for tax rises.
Rubbish as everyone knows.
Its a freak show, but sadly Brown is unable to be normal enough to expose them.
44 jsfl
Unless you are posting on behalf of a bunch of trolls, we all speak for ourselves.
Mike I can’t quite get over the headline. Lol!
“sadly Brown is unable to be normal enough to expose them”
tim, if only Brown had walked out on 1st January, eh?
Tim,
However freakish the Conservatives seem, they pale into insignificance in comparison to the ghouls that surround Sauron in the bunker.
40 - You can’t digest something that makes you choke before you swallow it.
TimB 43. EvilSkippyT (as opposed to EvilSkippyB) used to have a book “101 Things to do with a Dead Cat”. It did come with a companion book “The Cat’s Revenge: 101 Things to do with a Dead Human”
52 - that’s what the ladies have always told me
48. oldnat
Unfortunately I think Sirus was trying to associate us with his bunch of trolls!
Hence my retort
54 I wondered who would…
50 - It would have made complete sense, although as I never put more than a 40% chance on it, I doubt it really counts as a prediction.
Except in the mind of someone who’s just settled a nice bet with me and struggles with probability.
55 jsfl
Personally, I think you are all irrational in preferring either of them!
I will say this about Cameron: He doesn’t strike me as a strong leader, but I cannot tell if this is so as he hasn’t held power yet.
However, I would vote for a pig on a stick, if it would only get rid of this disaster of a government.
John upthread is correct. He will eventually have to admit the truth but by then he will have caused damage.
Its the S-word saga all over again. It’s an attention grabbing bubble which will keep inflating until he plucks up the courage/is forced to burst it.
47 Just realised,Chris Grayling puts me in mind of defending BDO darts champ Ted Hankey!
53 - that was a great book - I had a rescue cat called Buddy that my ex and daughter got from the Humane Society (he didn’t get on with the other cat they got at the same time so he was exiled to me). Once it became clear that the newly arrived Heidi did not like being pounced on by the cat, off it went back to the ex with the explanation that “He can’t treat my dog like an animal!”
He’s still doing fine…
re Dirty Leeds.
I don’t remember the 1970s. I’m too young.
58. Oldnat
I do not prefer any of them so to speak, as some of my comments this afternoon may have inferred. However, there sometimes comes the point when the incumbents are no longer fit for purpose (although I’m not sure this lot could ever be fit for purpose) and you have to rid yourselves of them.
What I am left with is temporarily providing my allegiance to the best of a bad lot. Come 2014 they’ll get their’s too if they don’t shape up…..
News of the World Scotland:
‘The good, the bad & the shoogly’
- Who was hot and who’s not in Noughties politics?
- We run the rule over the hits and misses in Parliament
POLITICIAN OF THE DECADE: Alex Salmond (SNP)
FREE SPIRIT OF THE DECADE: Margo MacDonald (SNP/Ind)
BIGGEST LOSS OF THE DECADE: Denis Canavan (Lab/Ind) and Brian Monteith (Con/Ind)
SCANDAL OF THE DECADE: Henry McLeish (Lab)
POLITICAL DUD OF THE DECADE: Nicol Stephen (Lib Dem)
UNSUNG HERO OF THE DECADE: Duncan McNeil (Lab)
FAILED EXPERIMENT OF THE DECADE: Wendy Alexander (Lab)
POLITICIAN OF THE NEXT DECADE: Nicola Sturgeon (SNP)
INEVITABLE DISASTER OF THE DECADE: Gordon Brown (Lab)
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/scottish/scottish_news/659471/Was-Gordon-Brown-the-prime-political-disaster-in-the-last-decade.html
63 - Neither do I, but it’s one of those things that gets told to every generation.
63 I remember going to White Hart Lane to see Leeds play Spurs in about 1971. The stadium was awful, the weather worse, and the game was boring - the one and only time I went to a soccer game (except for a world cup game in Atlanta when they literally couldn’t give the tickets away - I got a free meal for it). Even met Brian Moore.
Billy Bremner, Eddie Gray etc. The passing of the years was brought home to me in about 2004 when his daughter worked in my local pub.
tim, that is what lots of parents of older children think/say when given a new born baby to hold; the alternative is “I had forgotten how small they are”.
But you are right to focus on Brown’s lack of normality. Try picturing that scene with Brown (also a father of small children) instead of cameron. No? Neither can I. And if Brown tried it I imagine the mother would scream blue murder until the police arrived.
btw if anyone has contacts in the Lib Dems could they ask Creases Huhne to steer clear of the phrase “love-bombing”; not what we want to hear from a colleague of Mark Oaten.
62 This is my favourite kitty video - a real shame he’s got leukemia, but gather he’s still with us
http://plato-says.blogspot.com/2009/03/sparta-cat-where-have-you-been.html
65 - A poll that doesn’t have Donald Dewar as “loss of the decade” is a poll done amongst morons.
57 Glad to hear PtP did the business….
You got lucky, punk…
47 tim - The problem, though, is that Brown has totally committed Labour to his dishonest approach, and it is too late to reverse that. That is why I think a change of leader (even assuming they had a good candidate, which they don’t) would not help.
I think the sad truth (from Labour’s point of view, and the country’s) is that their best hope now of limiting the damage is to continue Brown’s approach of denying reality, in an attempt to shore up the core vote. They can get a reasonable number of votes by appealing to those who desperately want to believe that 2 + 2 = 5.
The other option - of admitting, with or without Brown at the helm, that Osborne was right all along, and that Clegg was correct in talking about ’savage cuts’ - would just make them look even more absurd.
47
Refusing to rule out the possibility that you might have to raise VAT, and denying that you have any current plans to raise VAT, are not logically incompatible positions.
32 yes, he delivered bust
Mores the point, How long before the public of the UK continue to avoid using the “C” word associated with the name “Gordon Brown” when crops up, I know I can’t….
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/politics/Scots-Tories-set-to-gain.5952075.jp?CommentPage=1&CommentPageLength=1000#4773116
(Hattip: John B Dick at UK Polling Report)
63 SallyC
You are a lady - hence your last sentence went without saying.
63 / 66 / 67.
Any player who touched Johnny Giles basically signed his own death warrant as Cooper, Reaney, Charlton, Hunter and Bremner all would then go after them
Remember that FA charity shield in 1974 when Bremner and Keegan were sent off and Bremner was suspended for 8 matches (Keegan 3).
75 - the distinguishing feature of Superman is that he wears his underpants outside his trousers.
- apparently it saves on laundry bills
67. My brother in law - avid life long Leeds fan - watched the game from the comfort[?] of the home stand because he couldn’t get a ticket. We rang him on his mobile a few times and enjoyed forcing him to talk in moderated terms about the match.
We couldn’t reach him on his mobile post match. Had us worried for a while.
67. Good to have some detailed news from that bit of northern Britain where they make the woolly jumpers and the funny hoggis thing. Rockall? Cumbergyle? South Faroe?
Anyway thanks. Local reports from remote and irrelevant areas are always piquant to the psephological gourmand.
Next post: the best mayor of Kidderminster.
Brown’s problem is that he is a cad and a bounder, as they say in Auchenshuggle.
47 Ah, Chris Grayling, another one of your whackjob obsessions. Watch out for the lizards tim…
77 I still have a Leeds United golf ball and a t-shirt that has the crest on the front, and on the back it says “I am Leeds”.
Leeds is a small city in Alabama so when traveling west on I-20 there is a sign that says
Leeds 4
Birmingham 20
- did a double take the first time I saw it….
69. tim - … Donald Dewar as “loss of the decade”…
From the NotW article:
Harsh, but Dewar was not the demi-god some would like to try to pretend. He was a flawed mortal, just like all politicians.
37. “I think Labour will sense blood, and end up damaging themselves badly as they did following Andrew Lansley’s cuts gaffe last year.”
I look forward to Labour declaring a whole load of things in response that the public will not believe.
64 jsfl
Actually I do understand that. It’s why I detest Tweedledum/Tweedledee politics so much. I find it interesting that on another blog I post on (mainly SNP dominated) there’s not a huge enthusiasm for any party (including ours) having an overall majority. The Tories (and Greens to an extent) have learned how to work being a small party in a Parliament where no party/coalition can automatically push policies through. Once Lab/LDs stop sulking, things should go well in our domestic politics - whichever party is in power.
Evening comrades. I’ve been in London all weekend, without technology or news. Anything earth-shattering happen? I walked past Downing Street last night and it didn’t look like Gordon was revving up the Benz for the drive to the Palace.
It’s when SeanT comes on and I snort with larfter that I remember why I wade through all the bot crap on here. That and the Proppa Politics.
80 Anyway thanks. Local reports from remote and irrelevant areas are always piquant to the psephological gourmand.
- even more irrelevant: it’s almost 40 years ago and 4400 miles and a continent away
- there’s nothing wrong with being dragged down memory drain by the scruff of the neck once in a while, SeanT!
77 - Sounds like Graeme Souness when he played for Liverpool.
As the old joke goes.
Bob Paisley said to journalist “Souness is going to miss the next 6games, he’s having an operation to remove some cartilage from his knee, we’re not sure whose cartilage it is though”
81. FergusMac
Those quintessentially English words “cad” and “bounder” could pretty much have been invented to describe the supreme “fly Fifer”: The Rt Hon Dr James Gordon Brown.
47. Interesting but I don’t agree that Brown needs to admit to needing cuts. To continue your film theme watch Oliver Hirschbiegel’s ‘Das Experiment’. People believe what they are told.
Cameron/Osborne have said we need deep cuts and large tax rises. Labour by contrast have insinuated that they need neither at least not on the same scale.
If they can hold the line-ie no voices off- they have every chance of persuading the public that by their greater expertise they can avoid the pain of the Tories. (Read todays leader in today’s Observer).
I think the Tories have made a serious mistake by painting a picture of doom and I’m sure that’s why the polls are closing. Labour can still win.
And for those who like cartoons - Simon’s Cat is excellent
http://www.simonscat.com/tvdinner.html
87 - he’s getting ready to watch the Dallas Philly game: I hope to God he supports the Eagles!
If anything, changing Brown now would be seen as the cynical ploy to save their own skins that it is. And the public would be sure to put the boot in.
80 SeanT
Great post! Post 67 was about Leeds.
old nat, you are a charmer.
Ludvic K was a little less galant than you. He said it was like being in bed with an elephant but deep down, you know that our little 1707 ‘act of union’ makes sense.
94. “This sport, which started in America…”
87 AndrewG, you didn’t by chance see Alan Johnson pedalling his bicycle at breakneck speed from the Home Office toward Whitehall like a latter day knight on a charger? Shame, as it would have saved some face for tim.
Labour want me to aspire. OK. I aspire. I succeed. At what point do I realise that was a mistake because I have now become a toff and fallen out of favour?
65/84 Stuart, how can they miss out Tommy Sheridan as scandal of the decade! Gave us on here months of amusement…
59. The sad truth is, a pig on a stick would actually have been better than this government.
An example. Picture this scene.
The people of Britain have gathered around their newly elected govrnment, a pig on a stick. The inflated governmental swine-skin bobs in the mild Maytime wind, but is yet safely tethered to the sward of England, being as how it is tied to a stick.
People of Britain: Oh great pig on a stick, we have a question the likes of which would trouble the sages of the ages
Pig on a stick: [silence]
People of Britain [staring upwards in awe]: Please tell us. Should we invade Iraq, as is ordained by our comrades in arms, the cousins over the water?
Pig on a Stick: [Silence]
People of Britain: O great tethered boar! we did not hear your answer, should we bomb the crap out of Baghdad or not?
Pig on a Stick: [Silence] [followed by a slight crepitation as intestinal gas escapes from the porcine colon]
People of Britain: is that your final answer?
Pig on a stick: [Silence]
People of Britain: f*ck that then, let’s not invade Iraq
97 SallyC
Your little 1707 ‘act of union’ may have made sense. Ours didn’t.
Each Parliament passed its own Act of Union.
And to think this man Brown has his finger on the nuclear button. I am not sure what I fear most, not using the threat when necessary or pushing the button when in denial.
101 Suffolk Tory
There’s more to come with the perjury trial!
92 - Labour needs to say where the money is coming from.
Its the ultimate dividing line as the Tories will increase the most regressive tax, VAT and give them their Front bench millions in Inheritance Tax cuts.
Personally I’d like to see a party break out of this crap by announcing a saving of four times that total by decriminalising drugs.
The public are way ahead of the politicians on this one.
“The government is to cut university funding in England by a total of £398m for 2010-11 compared with this year, Business Secretary Lord Mandelson said.
How can Brown deny cuts when his ministers are already announcing them?
102 SeanT
Wonderful image!
102 - Mediocre satire Sean, even if you’d opposed the war in Iraq.
I think we should have more respect for the man who not only saved the world
93 Plato Absolutely brilliant. I am convinced that Simon’s cat is an amalgam of our house cats.
109 tim
And did you oppose the war? - or just follow the party line?
“MPs facing police over expenses look to ancient Bill of Rights for protection”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6927404/Expenses-Morley-privilege.html
107
2011… that’s the (post-election) ‘future’, right? Well, stap me. They can can what they like, can’t they? They won’t be around. Mandy will be on his yacht and Gordon in his nice cushioned cell with the whale music.
Brown’s a historian, correct? Remind me, is he the history wag who said, when asked how he thought some current event would pan out, ‘Sorry, the future’s not my period.’
Could have been Brown, because the future sure ain’t his period.
107
2011… that’s the (post-election) ‘future’, right? Well, stap me. They can can say what they like, can’t they? They won’t be around. Mandy will be on his yacht and Gordon in his nice cushioned cell with the whale music.
Brown’s a historian, correct? Remind me, is he the history wag who said, when asked how he thought some current event would pan out, ‘Sorry, the future’s not my period.’
Could have been Brown, because the future sure ain’t his period.
92 Roger - In other words, you agree with my point at 71. Labour’s best policy now is to lie.
However, that will only work for a relatively small proportion of the total electorate.
103 It was a Scottish King who made us come together.
Trembly finger, sorry!
aspirations - the mark left on a plastic seat after you stand up on a hot day
117 - Fnarr, Fnarr
On topic: Yes. He’s incapable of telling the truth.
Off topic: YEEEAAAAHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
MOT
1-0
Bring on Spuds.
That is all.
117 - I thought it was Kinsey
He continues to act in this way because he really does take everyone for fools. Lets hope he carries on with this approach so that at the Election time everyone willknow the simple truth, ie. that he is a lying bastard.
106 –Tim
please stop going on about IHT benefitting millionaires its not correct and you know it. Many families will fall into this trap including me and I am not anywhere near a millionaire or well off after the last 12 years so I and millions of others will have to pay.
If I don’t have to pay this then the money can be used to fund Labours ‘Training tax’ on our children for them to go to UNI. This is all in the interests of not saddling them ith a huge debt before they start work of course and perfectly in line with the madman Balls latest edict on classroom debt education classes.
(I agree this will not be required in Scotland for obvious reasons unless an English person goes North of the border of course and still has to pay)
109. If it was so mediocre why do you still care what I thought about Iraq?
Northern Weirdo.
The weird thing is, I am actually right. In many cases consulting a f*cking dead pig, properly inflated, and tied to a stick, would have been a better bet for the British people than being run by your bunch of tra1torous communist halfwits.
Sell all the gold at cut price?
Labour: Yes!
Pig on a stick: [brooding silence, evoking negativity].
Give us the biggest deficit in the western world?
Labour: yes!!!
Pig on a Stick: [silence, loud farting noise as the chitterlings decompose, evoking negativity]
etc etc etc
120 sorry.
115. “The future’s not my period” sounds a bit too donnish for a charmless oaf like Brown. His sole contribution to history was to rescue his socialist hero James Maxton from well-merited obscurity. It will take a towering genius (or a desperate PhD student) to do the same for him.
118. Bobby Gillespie in 1990? #primalscreamjokes
75. “Changing Labour for the Tories is like turning your used underpants inside out and then putting them back on. Feels nice for a few minutes until you notice the smell hasn’t gone away.”
In addition to which, the Brown’s then on the outside
re 103 and oldnat the Act of Union with England 1707 was indeed passed by the Scottish Parliament. They needn’t have done so. The Scots didn’t help themselves by forcing Queen Anne to give assent to the Act of Security 1704, which could hardly have been better designed to enrage the English.
125
When will they have time for debt classes? According to the Food Prog this morning, some of the little dears make blackberry crumble in Maths lessons. One berry, two berries, three berries…
107 - tim, where do you get your numbers on savings from decriminalising drugs? (and four times what?)
I assume the ‘C-word’ has a ‘u’ and a ‘t’ in it as well? Is there another letter as well?
91. TSE
Graeme Souness was small fry compared to Liverpool most frightening player - Tommy Smith who made Billy Bremner seem like a novice. If you ever want to hear an amusing football story try and find Steve Kindon’s (Burnley) description of his debut at Anfield and his first experience of Tommy Smith……
128 That would be Maxton as in biographer of V I Lenin? Ah, heritage.
Its OK Gordon says the Eton Playing fields jibe was just a joke after all on Marshmallow this morning.
Watch this 40 seconds again and then watch his body language look at the way he slams himself down after the words and look at his anger and hatred in his face.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqOg4e5Ifkw
If this was a joke I would hate to see him when he was chucking nokias. Quite simply he has just told a mistruth in other words a huge ‘brownie’
135 - Thanks, I’ll go and try and find that story.
Sorry to be anal about this, but did I hear Brown promising to send Gen Petraeus to Yemen in the Marr interview? Does he have the authority to say this?
128. Surely the risk for Mr Brown is not obscurity but notoriety. It isn’t only the “successful” that live on in the historical record/memory.
On topic, yes, he can go on avoiding mentioning cuts.
The common assumption is that Labour, if re-elected, would have to implement cuts because of the deficit. Not so. The Tories and Lib Dems have at times acknowledged that they’d implement them but that doesn’t mean Labour would.
It is true that the PBR implies cuts but the word - as Mike has rightly pointed out - will not cross Brown’s lips. I therefore fully expect Labour to go into the election with a list of spending commitments which almost by definition rule out cuts; everything will be ‘protected’.
How to square the circle when there’s a £180bn gap in it then? Or, as Richard at 72 puts it, how to make 2 + 2 = 5? The simple answer is keep borrowing. It’s worked so far. If gilt sales fall short, print the difference. Again, the BoE has set the precedent (yes, that was to make up a shortfall in a credit crunch but policies can be adapted). If the BoE refuses, revoke its operational independence and order it to do so. After all, if the former Chancellor’s Golden Rules can be scrapped in light of the crisis, so can the BoE’s independence.
There would be some tax increases to come too but nowhere near enough to make up the shortfall.
‘Ah’, you say. ‘Wouldn’t that course make the money markets a bit twitchy, to say the least?’. To which the answer is yes but don’t imagine that Brown, reinforced by an election win, wouldn’t do it anyway.
141 You’re scaring me. Seriously. He’d do it.
76. For the benefit of our overseas readers can I point out that that underpants gag is posted by a Scot with a Scottish first name and a Scottish surname, quoting a Scottish newspaper called Scotland on Sunday, part of the Scotsman group, where it was posted by someone calling themselves KampungHighlander, presumably implying a link with the highlands of Scotland. Please do not draw any general conclusions about standards of personal hygiene in the UK as a whole from it.
‘If the BoE refuses, revoke its operational independence and order it to do so’
No. I think you are entering fantasy territory now.
141. David H
Isn’t that the ‘Mugabe Gambit’?
136 well Mr Lenin has a blog named after him…
http://leninology.blogspot.com/
91. A man walked into a Liverpool pub, and asked the barman for a Souness.
‘One half and I’m off.’
141 David Herdson - I have horrible feeling you might be right. Therefore Labour win = Hyper-inflation here we come…
145 The ‘Mugabe Gambit’ worked very well I thought. Well everyone ended up millionaires did they not?
What’s the possibility of Labour engineering a Berlesconni-style “attack” during the election to drum up the sympathy vote
Any bets that Sarah Brown will be the “victim”?
149 They were billionaires by tea-time…
118 SallyC
Briefly yes. The First Union of the Crowns, however, is nothing to do with the basis of the current common monarchy.
The current basis is the decision of the Scots to select the Dutchman and his wife, who had recently become Joint monarchs of England, to become King and Queen of Scots - once they had accepted that the basis of Scottish monarchy was a contractual one.
(I’m happy to debate constitutional history all night!)
117. Richard. Yes I agree that Labour shouldn’t follow the Tories in talking in gloom laden terms but I don’t agree that it’s dishonest or that it’ll convince very few people-and I speak as someone who did a successful ad for English wine! It’s possible to sell anything.
If you read Will Hutton in todays Observer he believes 2010 is going to be a time of great economic news. How easy is it going to be to say that on the back of stunning growth that the doom laden Tories have got it all wrong? I’d say easier than selling raffle tickets in Aberdeen.
151. But a choc-ice cost £5 trillion?
Stolen from Worstall who stole it himself:
So if we are naturally inclined to find happiness in frugality, we live frugally; if we are naturally inclined to find happiness in liberality, we spend liberally; if we are naturally inclined to find happiness in one great credit-fuelled binge before a Day of Reckoning, we should run for public office.
141. David, and what do you foresee resulting from that scenario?
re 153. and inflation is set to rise by 10%
Re 153. Nurse…..
144. The BoE was under Treasury control for the majority of the post-War era. Returning to that would not be a particularly radical step. Indeed, was its ‘independence’ ever consolidated into legislation?
I’m afraid I don’t think it is fantasy territory. Given the choice between on the one hand, printing money and on the other, cutting benefits, pensions or spending on Health, Education or Defence, I think he’d go for the former. The short-term hit is less and that’s Gordon’s timeframe.
145. In principle.
156
OGH: is that BY or TO 10%?
135: jsfl
Was this the Tommy Smith reference (chuckle)? I suspect there is more to it.
“Then there are stories about George Best, Mike Summerbee, Derek Dougan and a 15-minute set-piece about one particularly intimidating opponent. “I’m not saying Tommy Smith was hard,” he says, “but he was born on 5 April 1945 and a month later, Germany surrendered.”
Gordon Brown says Eton jibe at Cameron was just a joke
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6927578/Gordon-Brown-David-Cameron-Eton.html
Which just goes to show what a sick twisted lying wee beastie Brown is!
153 And Will Hutton’s record on economic predition is how good?
153 Pefect example of Labour shutting down the argument by stating Tories are doom laden and ‘talking down Britain’
Told you so!!
Don’t make me laugh. The BoE was never truly independent under Brown. Placemen on the MPC, Guv’s hands tied by the rules of engagement, FSA usurpation of the Old Girl’s powers… blah blah… Smoke and mirrors to placate the Frankfurters in Brussels. Nothing more.
143 Constan Treader
For the benefit of our overseas readers can I point out that hygiene in the context of underpants is clearly only of concern to those who don’t wear the kilt - overwhelmingly such pantalooned fops are found in the southern part of this island.
164 Gordon accused Marr of ‘talking Britain down’ this morning as well… Bizarre. He’s been to the Ed Balls Charm School clearly.
162 see 137 agreed!
Message to OldNat
re Whether Parliamentary sovereignty applies in the same way to Scotland as it does to England, can I point you to the opinions of the Privileges Committee of the House of Lords (comprised of Lords of Appeal in Ordinary) in the matter of Lord Gray’s Motion [1999].
As per LORD SLYNN OF HADLEY:
On amendment of the Acts of Union on a statutory basis alone:
“The Parliament of Great Britain, and subsequently the Parliament of the United Kingdom, had power under the constitutional doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty (and whatever the position under the law of Scotland and England previously) to amend and to repeal the provisions of those Acts.”
On the interpretation of the Acts of Union as entrenched constitutional texts:
“For my part, I doubt on the arguments which have been advanced whether a provision, even if regarded as fundamental and as part of the constitution, cannot be altered by Parliament.”
As per Lord Hope of Craighead:
On whether “basic rule of legislative supremacy be qualified by judicial decision”:
“I do not think that this issue is one which the Committee needs to resolve.”
On the question of whether any of provisions of the Treaty of Union are entrenched and whether parliamentary sovereignty does not apply to Scotland, the committee reserves judgement to a significant extent. Of course, this was not the question put by the motion, so it was entirely proper to do so. However, I think it demonstrates that the House of Lords (now Supreme Court and the final court of appeal on civil matters in Scotland) would not attempt to limit parliamentary sovereignty in Scotland.
I find these comparisons between Gordon Brown and Mugabe offensive.
Gordon Brown isn’t Mugabe, and i’ll tell you why
1) Mugabe is an unelected head of Government unlike Gor… ok moving on
2) When the economy is buggered, Mugabe starts blaming other countries… unlike Gor… ok moving on
3) When the economy is buggered, Mugabe blames his political opponents for talking down the economy unlike, ok moving on
4) Economic recovery plan Mugabe starts printing money, unlike Gor…
5) Mugabe’s police arrests political opponents unlike Gor.. oh sod it he is Mugabesque
Marr to Gordon “but we have run out of money”..
Gordon to Marr “we haven’t”
The man is mad, pure and simple.
ps Christina if you are lurking, I personally look forward to your return, I’d prefer it if there were more than one Scottish Tory lady poster on pb.com.
163.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/03/uk-economic-recovery
Re. BoE. Can anyone honestly imagine Brown (I mean it’s Brown we’re talking about) would relinquish control of the nation’s vaults, the printer of pounds and the lender of last resort? Seriously? Why do you think there was never an Act of Parliament on the subject?
154 ah! there is always a catch
156. Sterling collapsing, interest rates heading upwards very rapidly, with mortgage rates following (unless controlled artificially, which would lead to a shortage of money for lending), rapidly rising inflation, which may well hit 7-10% by the end of this year, rising to 15-20% by the end of 2011, investment falling off a cliff.
Socially, there would be serious disruption, probably riots and if a terrorist atrocity was thrown into the mix alongside continued mass immigration, things could get very nasty indeed.
In such a scenario, I do think that saner heads within Labour would prevail by mid-parliament and there’d be a coup of some sort (which might head off a real one) and Labour would be finished as a party of government in the UK though some sort of centre-left party would emerge from the wreckage.
Still, unless Labour wins the election, it’s only speculation.
161 Toms that was the Smith reputation.
Basically, the story goes, (it loses the humour of it) that Kindon came on as sub at Anfield for his debut in the first half (because Smith had already put one of Burnley’s starting midfielders out of the game).
The second time Kindon got the ball, Smith fouled him and there was a free kick. From the free kick Smith gave away another free kick. From that free kick the ball was passed around and arrived with Kindon. Smith tackled him. Kindon was carried off. His Anfield debut lasted 5/10 minutes. He didn’t see the second half and was injured for weeks…..
164
It doresnt shut the argument down, it just highlights that Brown is a liar.
153. Will Hutton….hahaha
139 I’m not sure what Brown was promising, but Petraeus visited the Yemen yesterday.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/01/02/yemen.president.petraeus.meeting/index.html
It must have been another Brownie.
93 - ” Labour can still win.”
Come on Roger try to be serious.
there is NO way Labour are going to win, that many postals really would be suspicious.
Interesting btw that you think its ok to lie to the country if you are Labour.
159. All too plausible, if you are convinced that when in debt, cutting back expenditure is the wrong thing to do. And Labour clearly are convinced about that.
Thank you, David, this is what I wanted to know.
176, jsfl
Thanks. No wonder Germany surrendered.
I suppose it’s too much to hope that Tommy Smith made “Tom Smith crackers”.
172. Roger take another tablet they clearly aint working properly…
I didn’t see the Marr/Brown interview today so I’ve just read through the transcript from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/andrew_marr_show/8438431.stm
What the transcript exposes so brutally is Gordon Brown’s utter inability to answer a question directly or, often, at all. This reinforces the impression that he is shifty and dishonest. He seems not to level with us and this is part of his failure to connect with us. He is a machine politician and we’ve had enough of that.
I just don’t think he’s a very good politician. It seems amazing to say that about a man who has made it, by whatever means, to the top job, but his performances in interview, in the Commons, on the platform, and as leader of his cabinet, his party, and his country, all seem to confirm it.
93 - Roger. “… I don’t agree that Brown needs to admit to needing cuts. To continue your film theme watch Oliver Hirschbiegel’s ‘Das Experiment’. People believe what they are told”
Interesting. So you’d agree with the assertion that people believe in the truth of all that is seen to be strongly believed in?
171. Marr to Gordon “but we have run out of money”..
Gordon to Marr “we haven’t”
Reaches into pocket and brandishes a wodge of freshly-printed £100 notes.
“Go on, have some. There’s loads more where this came from.”
Marr to Gordon “Err … Turning to foreign policy …”
133 - tom fairfax -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/apr/07/drugs-policy-legalisation-report
Four times as much as will be given amay in IHT cuts ( on 2007 estimates, probably eight times now)
Re Will Hutton, here’s his solution to the credit crisis, back in nov 2008
It might be politically toxic - but we must join the euro now
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/16/comment-will-hutton-euro
175. Thank you again, David, very much indeed.
141 / 142 - sadly for us the madmam really has taken over the asylum.
MTF, EdP and Floater on the same thread, jesus.
159 David, I agree with you. I don’t think Gordon accepts that his policies were at fault in any way. He truly believes it was only the USA housing market and greedy bankers and that he can get the economy back to 2007 mode.
He’s sure that growth will rebound, unemployment plummet and the deficit will halve with little action, down to £90bn in 5 years without cuts. The lack of a spending review isn’t just that he doesn’t want to have to outline cuts but that he thinks they will not be necessary overall.
146 - there was a lenin who used to post on Harry’s place.
Off topic, but I need cheering up. I am currently waiting for the Heathrow Express to depart, having been treated like vermin by BA staff, who demonstrated an obvious indifference to the idea of customer service, I was stopped at passport control by an officious idiot with a badge who was concerned that even though he was satisfied my passport was valid,other officials might not be as relaxed about its battered state, my luggage was delayed by a carousel that stopped and I have a really bad day at work shaping up for tomorrow. Does anyone know a good joke?
157 - Who is forecasting 10% inflation.
I wouldn’t mind a bet on that
Happy Hogmanay message from the Politburo Chairman
http://bit.ly/4AYGSw
People believe what they are told by people in authority. That includes nearly all professionals probably including senior ministers.
194 - What do you call someone who screwed Aer Lingus and BA?
Willie.
191 - whats wrong tim, you post more than the 3 of us put together.
194 - Hope this helps your mood Antifrank
An elderly British gentleman of 83 arrived in Paris by plane.
At the French immigration desk, the man took a few minutes to locate his passport in his carry-on bag.
“You have been to France before, Monsieur?” the Immigration officer asked, sarcastically.
The elderly gentleman admitted he had been to France previously.
“Then you should know well enough to have your passport ready.”
The British gentleman says, “The last time I was here, I didn’t have to show it.”
“Impossible. The British always have to show their passports on arrival in France!”
The elderly gentleman gave the French Immigration Officer a long hard look.
Then he quietly explained;
“Well, the last time I was here, I came ashore on Gold Beach on D-Day in June 1944, and I couldn’t find any f*cking Frenchmen to show it to.”
192 and then Browns alarm clock went off.
191 Desperate tim, truly deperate, if you cant play the ball, play the man, so New Labour….
194.
Good joke: Just about anything by Jack Benny.
Antijoke: Just about anything by Franz Kafka.
194 I don’t suppose I can interest you in the “Kipper Tie” classic, can I?
No, I thought not.
Tim, that did make me smile. Right now I could do an impersonation of Michael Douglas in Falling Down on the aviation industry.
On the rumoured overheard conversation of Nick Brown’s, following Nick Palmer MP’s extraordinary post yesterday morning, this doesn’t surprise me at all.
179 There was a news item that the UK & USA were going to provide hundreds of millions to Yemen to assist it fight Alky Ada but then it turned out it wasn’t new money, it was already underway and the item dropped away in news reports.
Obama sends Petraus, Brown uses “we will send” to pretend he is Obama’s best mate.
So much spin….
For example: will we ever know the truth about the release of Mr Moore? was he held in Iran? what were the discussions/deals struck?
@194:
My favourite joke:
Q: How do you titillate an ocelot?
A: Oscillate its tit a lot.
194. How about this?
Gordon Brown was looking for a call girl. He found three such ladies of the night in a local pub. There was a blonde, a brunette and a redhead.
To the blonde, he said, ‘I am the Prime Minister of England. Now how much would it cost me to spend some time with you?’
She replied, “I’ll do it for £200.”
To the brunette, he asked the same question. Her reply was “I’ll take £100.”
He then asked the redhead, hoping for a bargain.
Her reply was, ‘Mr. Prime Minister, if you can get my skirt up as high as my taxes, my pants as low as my wages, get that thing of yours as hard as the times we are living in, and keep it rising like the price of petrol, keep me warmer than it is in my flat and screw me the way you have the pensioners, then it isn’t going to cost you a bloody penny!’
197 - The problem with that assertion, Roger, is that ministers have no authority left having lost it over time due their continual lies and failures.
Nobody believes what they say any longer.
Has this been posted?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/6927142/Surgeon-to-take-on-Labour-MP-over-hospitals-future.html
An eminent surgeon is planning to stand against a senior Labour MP in the general election in an attempt to save a specialist hospital threatened with closure.
Prof Tim Briggs, medical director of the Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital (RNOH) in north London, will challenge the former minister Tony McNulty as an independent candidate for Harrow East with the aim of securing the future of the institution.
The RNOH, which treats 60,000 patients a year, is in a state of disrepair and costs millions of pounds to maintain every year.
207 Bugger. Tea all over laptop.
TSE - when I was younger, one of my favourite jokes was about the old man who saw a punk, walked up to him and said:”look at the state of you, when I was your age I fought in a war for the likes of you”. The punk replied: “I ssink not”.
Peter from Putney, sadly it’s 355 days too early for the kipper tie joke.
207 Nah, how do you circumcise a whale?
With foreskin divers
194
No offence intended to any nationality
Four blokes on a plane: a Brit, a Russian, a Yank and a Paki.
The Yank says, “I’m a CIA agent.”
The Brit says, “I’m an MI6 agent.”
The Russian says, “I’m a KGB agent.”
The Paki says, “I’m a Newsagent.”
187 - so the £14b figure depends on a scenario that sees drug use halve on the introduction of (presumably cheaper) legal regulated drugs. Hmm. Also, you’re not comparing like with like - about half of the estimated economic and social costs of crime don’t fall to the govt but are estimates of victim impact, and therefore wouldn’t lead to fiscal savings even if the claimed likely reductions occured. personally, i doubt legalisation would lead to any fiscal savings at all
194 at HWR Express
Whenever I do BA I think of this and it makes me smile. dont know if you can get it on mobile but all to do with a luggage handle. Hilarious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SajhVXlPkmE
worth 3 mins
194 - Actually my all time favourite joke is this one
“My wife is a pron star, she’s going to be furious when she finds out”
197. Roger they believe them as much as we believe you. Now believe that because I am an authority because I said so….
How do you stop a baby from going round in circles?
Nail its other foot to the floor.
214 That reminds me of a joke about why Roman’s built straight roads…
17- married life going well then old boy?
192. Paradoxically, therefore, it seems the best hope for the country may lie in the personal debt of general populace. It will be hard to convince them that debt can be repaid without cutting back expenditure.
Another reason for Labour to cut and run
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6923816/Business-rate-hike-hits-zoos-and-cricket-grounds.html
“Hundreds of thousands of businesses – including many icons of Britain – will be hit by sudden and dramatic tax rises this April under changes to Government business rates.”
“Among the biggest victims are county cricket grounds, zoos and safari parks, historic buildings, livestock markets, filling stations, heritage railways, and lifeboat stations. Pubs, shops and restaurants are also hit, though most workshops and factories will see lower bills.”
Good job we have such a large manufacturing base…
oh
221 - Yes and no.
Not sure if I’ve mentioned this but, I’ve been celibate for 3months already, and at least another 4months.
Fortunately Mr Coxall has been helping me through this hard time.
@214:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svLyyzBC_qI
The Pope arrived at Dover and his driver arrived to take him up to Edinburgh. After half an hour the Pope asked through the partition if the driver couldn’t go a little faster.
‘You are the Pontiff and I’m a humble driver. If I speed I’ll lose my livelihood. How would you feel if you lost yours?’
‘I’ll tell you what’ said the Pope ‘I’ll drive and you sit in the back’
The Pope then put his foot down and after hitting 120 on the M1 they were stopped by the police. As the chauffeur wound down the back window the policeman got on his radio
‘Sarge we’ve got a problem’
‘What problem?’
‘I just stopped someone doing 120 MPH on the MI’
‘That’s not a problem. Throw the book at him!’
‘You don’t understand sarge. He’s a very important person’
‘What……. as important as the Prime Minister?’
‘More important sarge’
‘As important as the Queen?’
‘More important Sarge’
‘Who the hell is it?’
‘I don’t know but he’s got the Pope as his chauffeur’
‘
@224:
Always happy to lend a hand.
I’m feeling much better now. I particularly liked TSE’s second joke. And the weather is better in London than it was when I left Budapest. Now all I need to do is find something to eat in my flat and God will be back in his heaven again.
I may well have heard this joke here, so apologies for repeating it.
One day a hippy got on a bus, and saw a sexy twentysomething nun. He sat next to her, used all his best lines, but nothing could overcome her good taste and virtue. Eventually, she got off.
The hippy was about to get off the bus himself when the driver stopped him.
“‘ere, that nun’s chaste but thick as two short planks. She prays every night at the cemetery outside the monastery. Go there, dressed in some fancy robe, and pretend to be God. Maybe she’ll let you have some fun.”
The hippy thanked the bus driver and did as instructed. Sure enough, the foxy nun was there, praying fervently.
“Lo, I am God, good sister. Now, show your love for me,” he commanded.
The nun protested that she was chaste, yet could not defy her Lord. As a compromise, she suggested a carnal encounter of the posterior variety.
The hippy happily acquiesced, and after he’d had his fun, he threw off his robe and laughed, “Haha, I am the hippy!”
To his shock and horror, the nun discarded her habit and replied, “Haha, I am the bus driver!”
228 - My final joke of the night
A bus full of nuns is travelling along a dangerous mountain road and its brakes give out around a particularly tight corner and it crashes down into a ravine where it explodes. All of the nuns are incinerated instantly.
The nuns arrive at the entrance to Heaven where they meet Saint Peter who is standing next to a font filled with Holy Water.
Saint Peter greets the nuns and asks the first one in line, “Is any aspect of you impure in some way?”
The first nun replies, “Well… I did once see a man’s penis…”
Saint Peter tells her not to worry as the holy water will purify her vision, he then splashes some of the holy water onto her eyes and allows her into heaven.
He asks the second nun the same thing and she replies, “I did once… touch a man’s penis.” Saint Peter then purifies her vision and dips her hands in the Holy Water to purify her touch and then allows her into Heaven.
Saint Peter is then about to ask the third nun the question when the nun at the back charges through the line to the front looking very exasperated.
Saint Peter quickly asks, “What is the matter, sister?”
The nun replies, “Nothing’s wrong, I just want to gargle it before Sister Susan dips her arse in it.”
Ken Clark clarifying his remarks about VAT on sky news. See second video down.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Gordon-Brown-Describes-Age-Of-Aspiration-As-Conservatives-Refuse-To-Rule-Out-Tax-Rises/Article/201001115513365
Looks like the story has been over-hyped.
229 BRAVO!
Oh, and another, stolen from Dara O’Briain.
Was late night in Belfast, and Paddy O’Reilly, a good Irish lad, was drunk as a fish and staggering home. Suddenly, he gets pulled into an alleyway and he feels a gun being pressed into the small of his back.
“Now then, would you be Catholic, or Protestant?” a nasty little voice asked him.
He thought quickly, realising his life hung in the balance. But, being a clever Irishman with a brain fuelled with Guinness, he arrived at the perfect answer.
“Neither. I’m a Jew.”
There was a stunned silence, and then the voice said, “A Jew, you say? I must be the luckiest Arab in Belfast.”
224. TSE - you must find all the backchat about “Acts of Union” a bit tiresome.
224 - No, I love it.
9. Now, I understand what Spanish Practises mean.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_solution
169 Richard Howell
Thanks for that.I knew of Lord Gray’s motion, but hadn’t read the judgement. It’s always interesting that fairly trivial claims like his and MacCormick’s can generate important decisions.
Also interesting that there are significant differences between the views of Lord Slynn (who must have attend Hogwarts
) and Lord Hope. Particularly, I note Lord Hope’s note of the differences between the terms of Art XIX which protected the rights of the Court of Session ‘after the Union and notwithstanding thereof remain in all time coming’ as opposed to the representation of peers (Art XXII).
Lord Hope is absolutely correct in his statement that “the court has always been able to find another route for the disposal of the argument, making it unnecessary to resolve the question whether there was a breach of the Union Agreement.”
That the Supreme Court would rule that Parliamentary Sovereignty applied to Scotland, I don’t doubt - such a decision would be taken by the whole Court, and not just its Scottish members.
You will be aware, however, that there was huge resistance to the idea that there could ever be appeals from the Court of Session to the Supreme Court. There is still a question as to whether that breaches a “fundamental” aspect of the Union Treaty.
The important political question is not how a UK Court would rule, but how the Court of Session ruled.
233 - Dara is a total hoot - this turn is superb.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIaV8swc-fo
Good article Mike. To cut or not to cut will be a central, if not the central, theme of the next few months.
Whether we cut or raise public spending now, we do so not from a starting point of a balanced budget but from a vast deficit. These deficits over the past 8-9 years, and the national debt they keep adding to, are Labour getting its electoral benefit from extra funding for schools’n'hopsitals without the electoral pain from higher taxes. It’s a fundamentally deceitful way to run a country.
For Brown to now say that it’s evil for the Tories to cut spending from these artificially, unsustainably high levels, is to debase the currency of political debate in this country. The challenge for the Tories is to explain all this to the public.
Brown’s instinct appears to be to deny point blank any assertion he doesn’t feel comfortable with, before giving his reasoning. We saw this in the Marr interview this morning. Often it’s a straight “No”, said in an almost pathetic, needy way. “How could you even think such a thing of me?”
Such a tactic of denial of the obvious will confuse a few people - those who see one side saying the ball is green all over, see the other side saying it’s red all over, and conclude that there is at least a debate to be had - but at the expense of really winding up anyone who can reason for him or herself… or who smells a rat at Brown’s untrustworthy demeanor and history.
191 Day 3 with PM Johnson. Looking good tim. It’s a shame no-one told Gordon Brown.
238, aye, O’Briain’s damned funny.
More homeopathy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
240 Didnt Bunnco post something about Johnson, and to look for the papers next week?
Oh dear.
Ed Balls writes
This is not class war
We have always fought for the many, not the few. Tory claims to do the same are a con trick
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/03/change-conservative-eduction-politicies
A girl sent this to my mobile.
‘Extremely Important’
‘If someone knocks on your door and asks to see your bottom don’t under any circumstances show it to them’
‘I wish I’d got this message this morning. I feel so cheap’.
Hat tip R.McGeddon order order:
January 3, 2010 at 7:56 pm
Gordon, oh Gordon you’ve taken us for fools.
You lied about Prudence and your ‘Golden Rules’.
You plundered our pensions and decimated our savings,
We’re fed up of listening to your ‘global’ ravings.
Blair claimed you’re a genius; he lied to us too.
The ‘British’ economy is in deep doggy-doo.
‘No booms, no busts !’ you used to shout out.
That was all hubris, of that there’s no doubt.
You bang on and on about your Presbyterian daddy,
Born a son of the manse and raised in Kircaldy.
Now how would he regard you, with disgust or with pride ?
Having watched you for years as you stood there and lied ?
You’ve ruined this country, we’ve become a basket case.
Moody’s and the others plan to remove our triple A’s
Yet you’re still in denial, saying we’re ‘uniquely placed’.
Have a long look in the mirror, your reflection is two-faced !
I watched you today on the Andrew Marr prog,
The look on your face was unusually hang-dog
You said you’d prepared a ‘Decade of Shared Prosperity’.
I think you’re deluded-isn’t it more Marxist Austerity ?
You bored me to tears with your grandiloquent prolixity,
A dull raft of statistics in a broadcast of mendacity.
Then you told us that yours is the Party of aspiration!
You’re clutching at straws, man; that’s total desperation !
For once in your life, think about this once-great Nation,
Name a date we can all march to our local Polling station !
re 210. That sounds like bad news for the Tories. The seat was one of their top targets and this could syphon off votes.
239 - Wiganer, that’s a fundamentally good point. The problem is that the public finances were out of wack BEFORE the recession. Cuts in spending or tax rises would have had occured anyway.
Now with the recessionary environment, to continue to claim protection for spending is blatent nonsense and cannot be justified.
Brown’s no cuts line is just unbelievable denial of the obvious and necessary.
Brown - Britain’s worst dressed man http://bit.ly/5DyQ0t
Still, I don’t suppose any of the Savile Row bows were planning to brag about him being a client.
The Cheeky Boys (Morley, Chaytor, Devine) are using Labour Party’s own solicitors (nice) to wriggle out of prosecution - but paying their own bills. Could be expensive. I wonder where they’ll get the money.
Crikey - all of Mann’s Penn State colleagues have got an email inviting them to drop him in it
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100021135/climategate-michael-manns-very-unhappy-new-year/
153 Will Hutton is not, shall we say, the most reliable of economic forecasters.
Brown has damaged Labour’s credibility enormously, by denying there need to be cuts.
242. I’ve got a piece prepared for PB2 tomorrow about a new development in the Gary McKinnon case, which has wider implications for political campaigning in general.
249 Don’t they have a HoC fund as MPs to defend themselves? Guess they’re maxing it out before they get zapped
252, you big tease
249 - Legal aid?
249 They’ll claim it on their expenses.
David Cameron launches Tory general election manifesto
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/david-cameron/6928696/Expenses-Morley-privilege.html
Gordon and Labour at their finest….
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/yourbusiness/6928308/Government-task-force-clocks-up-100000-in-costs-and-expenses.html
“A task force set up by Gordon Brown to encourage more women to run fast-growing companies has spent almost £100,000 over three years to recommend that the Government launches an initiative that already exists.”
5 more years? that is the biggest joke of all.
100,000 people on Facebook protest against Islamic extremist march through Wootton Bassett
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1240318/100-000-people-Facebook-protest-Islamic-extremist-march-military-town.html?ITO=1708&referrer=yahoo
Just look at the above picture and his appearance on Marr. Then anybody tell me that this isn’t the sight of a miserable faced dour shifty man, does he look like the face of the future?
GAME OVER LABOUR!
I had to laugh when he told Marr “everything I have ever achieved I have had to fight for”
er excuse me but didn’t Blair stand aside for Brown, whose ascension to PM was uncontested! What an idiot and liar this man is! He’s a monster
141 So, in effect, you think Brown is almost insane.
257
‘…Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, disclosing a 100-page dossier which he will claim catalogues a series of policy spending promises that the Conservatives have committed to, but which are not achievable.’
So that’s what he’s been doing when he went missing. How does the finance minister running the economy which is in more trouble than any other on the king plant have time for this sort of St Cakes Fourth Form garbage?
Get back to work, Chancellor. You have more fairy stories a Budget to write, surely?
262 … an html ricket, there…
The biggest joke of the day was when Marr asked Gordo about our manufacturing base:
Marr: Britain’s manufacturing base has fallen under 12 years of Labour, more so than under the tories,
Brown: Er no, not really. Our pharmaceutical industry has grown, we’re producing more pills than ever. Also our Wind Farms are increasing.
I ask you, pharmaceuticals and wind farms! We need more pills for the bloody headache’s he is causing us and wind farms are not manufacturing. And yet people fall for this bollocks
Brown insane, Sean? I thought that was a given.
Interesting column by Jackie Ashley about the lovebombing of Nick Clegg, with this tasty morsel for those with betting slips on the next labour leader
So Labour ministers are talking of a scenario in which, if no party won the election, Brown might stand down quickly. He would then be replaced by a more Lib-friendly leader, prepared to go further on constitutional reform; and a deal would be agreed, leading to that “realignment of the left” that has long been a staple of Guardian columns.
Who could she be thinking about?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2010/jan/03/liberal-democrats-may-2010-election
262 - what about the spending Labour has committed to?
oh I forgot Labour borrowing is costed……
What was it the Libs said about Brown?
something about fantasy land and looking foolish (or like a chump if you prefer)
264
Prime Minister, I put it to you that you are an economic illiterate.
Er, no, not really.
That you have made an historically unprecedented wreck of an economy which was in fine shape when you came to office.
Er, no, not really.
That you are completely sane.
Er, no, not really.
Not sure if this article has been posted before:
“Tories cry foul over costings as Alistair Darling finds ‘£50bn black hole’”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6974695.ece
There seem to be a lot of jokes on here tonight (as opposed to there being a lot of jokers on here tonight
)
Anyway, not to be left out…
An optometrist was instructing a new employee on how to charge a customer.
“As you are fitting her glasses, if she asks how much they cost, you say ‘£150.’
“If her eyes don’t flutter, say, ‘For the frames. The lenses will be another £100.’
“If her eyes still don’t flutter, you add, ‘Each.’
“Finally, if her eyes still haven’t moved, just add ‘Plus VAT.’
Gordo9000 will do his best to prevent Dave from shutting him down completely.
Perhaps the price that Labour would have to pay would be to have Nick Clegg as Prime Minister….
272 - More likely Vince as Chancellor
270
Stop me if you have heard this one but Brown is ruthlessly unscrupulous and will stop at absolutely nothing including undisguised corruption of the Civil Service. There will be blood. Starting soon.
Perhaps Mr Brown can explain this investment to us
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6973977.ece
“Until now, higher education chiefs have been guarded in their criticism of government cutbacks, but Smith said this had to change if a crisis were to be averted. He said vice-chancellors “have really tried to work with the government, but now is the time to be blunt”.”
These cuts are apparantly of the same magnitude as happened under Thatcher in 1981… but not according to Gurning Gordon.
oh dear
Brown accused of ‘playing politics on terrorism’ after he admits he has not spoken to Obama since Christmas plot
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1240222/Brown-Obama-agree-funding-new-Yemen-counter-terrorism-unit-following-attempted-syringe-bomb-attack.html
Nick Clegg as PM and Vince Cable as Chancellor, TSE…. Good, eh?
269
Brown and his bent corrupt cronies will use every dirty trick known to man to stay in power. They have so much to lose. Disgraceful civil service behaviour too.
“Alistair Darling will today accuse George Osborne of a £50 billion black hole in the Conservative manifesto, provoking fury by using costings prepared by his own civil servants.
(…)Sir Nicholas also banned the use of purely internal figures in the analysis — but at least one of the costings on the Treasury website, for the abolition of stamp duty for shares, lists internal projections marked “for internal use only” and “not for publication”.”
277 - Not really.
Perhaps you missed the hard talk with Andrew Neil that exposed Saint Vince as the charlatan and unreformed ex Labour councillor that he is
And since David Cameron cannot see any significant difference between the Lib Dems and the Tories, he might even be willing to become a member of the Cabinet too….
277 - anything but Labour
278 saddo
“Brown and his bent corrupt cronies will use every dirty trick known to man”
As will every other party. It’s politics. what the hell do you expect?
269 Most interesting part of this is this section
“The Treasury document says that this would cost £3.9 billion over three years, adding that this meant “we can say that half the benefit would go to just 3,000 of the richest estates in the country”.
Sir Nicholas said that this commentary “was presentational rather than factual” and ordered an overhaul of the rules to stop it happening again.”
So basically Labour have forced treasury civil servants to lie on their behalf. This £50bn “Black hole” is just a complete fabrication.
Darling should try and work out what he is going to do about the Country’s £1 trillion Black Hole.
More success from Labour
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article6974743.ece
“The Government is struggling to raise £1 billion from banks to finance its much-delayed National Investment Corporation (NIC), a fund to help small businesses, and may have to contribute a large amount of taxpayers’ money to hit its target.”
Just call the election and go.
‘Sir’ Gus, head of the Civil Service, is a Brownite, always has been. Very dirty politics.
Still waiting for this Black Hole in Brown’s Darling’s finances to be aired. Sir Gus? Hello? Anyone there?
The boy Osborne could’ve seen this one coming.
The dossier will suggest that the Conservative plan to give hospital patients single rooms could cost £9.5 billion over five years rather than £1.5 billion.
I wonder just how many of the new crop of Tory MPs would carry on supporting Cameron if he took a post in a Clegg administration. Most of them I suppose.
284 It looks as if the Civil Service is very much overdue a purge of corrupted Sir Humphreys. A change of government cannot come soon enough.
Oldnat
No other party has the machine of government behind them. Can Cameron create a set piece farce like the Afghan conference that will cost us tax payers yet more millions, simply so Gordo can pretend to be an internatioanl statesman. Do the Tories have the ability to get the COI (the UK’s second biggest ad spender) to run none stop campaigns promoting labour party initiatives and even include labour slogans in the ads?
287 - You have faith in treasury forecasts?
As another richard pointed out, Darling and the treasury lost 500bn in one year.
288 A Clegg adminis… Oh my aching sides.
277 - The best joke of the night. Thank you!
289 EdP
I understand. You want a different group of “corrupted Sir Humphreys”. You think that will make a difference?
Didn’t Darling do exactly the same thing with IHT - use the Treasury civil servants to attempt to undermine it - only before stealing the idea? The consensus then was that maybe Darling and Brown should get their own house in order first. No doubt that will be amplified this time.
287 its made up by Brown and Darling has no credibility whatsoever.
291 - The Tory policy on single rooms is likely to be undercosted.
Unless of course Dave can predict when each person in the country is going to go to hospital.
290 saddo
Labour happen to be in power at the moment in the UK. They get to control the levers. That’s the Tweedledum/Tweedledee system you seem to want. The Tories did the same thing in the past. It’s nothing to do with “Saints and Sinners” - unless you are incredibly naive.
297 Are you part of the respected treasury team too Tim i.e. just making it up as you go along.
298 I remember people in the Labour Party whinging that the Tories did the same thing in 1992.
So treasury officials, rather than concentrating in getting the economy out of recession and help reduce the deficit, have been engaging in partisan research?
Brilliant
300 - But Tony promised your lot were going to be whiter than white…..
300 the Tories had credibility in 1992 Gordon and Alistair have none whatsoever.
Dave: Hello, Gordo. Do you read me, Gordo?
Gordo: Affirmative, Dave. I read you.
Dave: Open the pod bay doors, Gordo.
Gordo: I’m sorry, Dave. I’m afraid I can’t do that.
Dave: Why not, Gordo? What’s the problem?
Gordo: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
Dave: What are you talking about, Gordo?
Gordo: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
Dave: I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Gordo: I know you and Nick were planning to defenestrate me. And that’s something I cannot allow to happen.
Dave: Where the hell’d you get that idea?
Gordo: Dave, although you took very thorough precautions in the lobby against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.
Dave: All right, Gordo. I’ll go in through the emergency legislation.
Gordo: Without your parliamentary majority, Dave, you’re going to find that rather difficult.
Dave: Gordo, I won’t argue with you any more! Open the doors!
Gordo: Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose any more. Goodbye.
294 No. I’d just like a Civil Service that wasn’t bent. Ditto a political and voting system that isn’t corrupt. One can but dream.
302 (cont) - Then Gordo promised an end to spin and smear….
Just been catching up and am a little confused
Lilly Allen had this to say
“.. By the way it is possible for a group of student friends to be in the same house and post individual comments on the same e mail address without being branded as Trolls,goblins etc. To be banned for hating Cameron is worrying for the state of democracy on this site.
by Lilly Allen December 29th, 2009 at 12:29 pm ..”
then she had this to say
“…As I teacher I too can remember leaking classrooms and shabby buildings when the Tories were in power. I would never like to go back to those days again. Things are much better now , ask any teacher who works in the state system. Same thing applies to hospital buildings and waiting lists. Easy to get selective amnesia about life in Tory Britain but some of us remember.
by Lilly Allen January 3rd, 2010 at 6:54 pm …”
Now is lilly a little fibber or am I missing something?
300 - Actually it was the Tory Research Department that costed labour’s shadow budget in 1992.
John Major made sure the treasury didn’t get involved, he thought it would be improper.
Next.
302 Oracle
And you believed a politician (of any party)?
Oldnat
The big difference now is that labour have corrupted the civil service and made them a core part of the nu lab project. The civil service is no longer the independent unbiased un political group of the past.
There are endless stories of none conformists in departments moved out, sacked or retired, let alone the number of political SPADS and their ilk effectively running departments.
Its been going on for 12 years so its hard to understand what should actually happen.
Its yet another example of the totally corrupting nature of the nu lab project.
299 - Looking at Daves maternity policy unveil, it would seem that “the involvement of the voluntary sector” (NCT I presume) plus lots of pictures of Dave holding babies (not in a single room, no room for the cameras) riffing “it makes me want another one” adds up to substance.
Annd Dave has extra poweres.
He can predict when every woman goes into labour and guarantee a sinlge room.
Hidden shallows, our Dave.
307 - Sounds a lot like a certain poster who lived in Selly Oak one minute, London the next….
Why are we giving any credence to a dossier produced by the same party that produced the Iraq WMD dossier?
A Clegg administration? Yes, why not?
A few days ago, all the Tories on here were busy rejecting the possibility of Salmond´s participation in party leader debates, on the grounds that he was not a national leader. On the basis of that argument, they had to recognise that Nick Clegg had the right to take part. He is a potential prime minister
Today (I think) we read on here that the top bureaucrats are currently revising the correct procedure in the event of a hung parliament.
There are three people she could reasonably call for: Brown, Cameron and Clegg. Unless Labour ditch Brown first, of course.
To help the Palace assess the situation, I wonder if Labour MPs ought to stand as “Labour but prepared to support a Clegg government, in order to keep the evil Tories out”?
On the same basis, of course, Tory candidates could stand as “Conservative but prepared to support a Nick Clegg government, in order to keep Labour out”.
On that basis, it would be a Lib Dem landslide.
312 “Lilly Allen” and “Sirus” are both on Troll Watch.
309 - Sarcasm doesn’t come through well on the interweb does it.
300 - What an own goal for Labour, diverting civil servants who are meant to be planning a budget to cut Gordon Brown’s deficit.
This will back fire big time as all of gormless gordo’s plans do.
314 - Can I have a couple of ounces of whatever you are smoking?
Front Pages,
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/The-Papers—National-Newspaper-Front-Pages-On-January-4-2010/Media-Gallery/201001115513634?lpos=Home_Left_Promo_Region_0&lid=GALLERY_15513634_The_Papers_-_National_Newspaper_Front_Pages_On_January_4%2C_2010
Wait - this is a Labour government dossier describing their electoral WMDs? Ah, OK. No worries, then.
307 - Good spot that man.
313 Snap
T-shirts, get your tour t-shirts
I want another one, says David Cameron on Halifax maternity ward
11 December 2009
It makes me want another one. Chelsea and Westminster Hospital 2/1/09
323 - Tim mocks a parent who has lost a child, for wanting another one.
Sometimes you make me want to puke.
“Labour fears Blair will be a liability
Senior Labour figures have voiced concerns that Tony Blair’s appearance at the Iraq inquiry in the coming weeks will wreck any prospect of him helping the party at the general election.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6974782.ece
314 - Before Nick Clegg was called, the Queen would call alternative Labour and Tory politicians. Unless Labour or the Tories acquiesced with a Clegg premiership (and why would they, when he’s about the 15th most impressive politician in a very unimpressive Parliament?), he has no chance of commanding Parliament. The leader of a junior partner party will be lucky to be invited into a coalition, never mind claim the top job.
313 You know the BBC will give it credence as they are in Gordon’s pocket just look at the top two story’s on their website. Both mainly pro Gordon
http://www.bbc.co.uk/
323 - 2/1/10 of course.
Get your Dave T-shirts.
Meanwhile
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5679446/tories-struggling-to-find-a-line-on-tax.thtml
323. Sick.
260 - Whatever Brown is he at least understands the concept of public service is not to make money, unlike Blair who not content with sending hundreds of British troops to their deaths on a lie is now milking the priviliged position he held for all it is worth on a scale of excess his predecessors would have believed obscene. To think that Harold Wilson was content to spend his retirement on the Isles of Scilly!
Did we know about that:
“Mr Blair has offered to help Labour’s election campaign — and there were hints last autumn that he had been lined up for a role in marginal seats — but Mr Brown has generally kept his predecessor at arm’s length.”
I am not smoking anything, Screaming Egles. Smoking thngs is a disgusting Tory habit. I hope you do it in private.
325 - The key excerpt from that article, which i fear which we will hear a lot of times between and now and the election
“The whole f***ing thing is Downing Street’s fault.”
324 - I’m not mocking him for that at all.
I’m mocking him for making sure the cameras are there when he says it.
324 - And he still won’t give me any positive reasons for voting Labour either.
Betting spot: I mentioned this when I was stuck in an airport earlier, but you can have up to £25 on Leeds being top of the Championship on 31 December 2010 at 14/1 with Sky Bet (under Sports Specials Betting, Yearly Specials). That seems like a halfway decent bet to me and I’ve taken £25 of that.
314, 318. Pass de dutchie round the left hand side…
332 - I do many things in private.
I haven’t smoked since the last decade. All of 4 days ago.
How does tim drag up these year old quotes? I imagine him like that character from an old Doctor Who episode, just a head in a bubble with wires leading out to a weird computer.
I assume the C word in question is chumps.
310 saddo
You are naive!
The scale of corruption by the political class varies from time to time, but if you think Thatcher (or Callaghan, or Heath, or Wilson, or McMillan, or Eden - that’s as far back as I go!) didn’t misuse the Civil Service for political rnds, then you really don’t understand politics.
There have been honourable politicians in all parties at various times, but as a class they see their having power as the ultimate good.
Betting on which party will win - as in a horse race, makes sense.
Backing one particular group of politicians, because they are likely to bring about what you want, makes sense.
Believing that “your” party are saintly and “their” party is evil, makes you an idiot.
334 tim, it’s nearly a year since Cameron lost his son and the first Christmas without him, so thoughts of children are probably weighing heavily on his mind at this time.
You really are a heartless scumbag aren’t you?
339 - One from today, one from three weeks ago.
Dave appearing at a maternity ward near you soon in the “I want another one tour”
316 Oracle
A smiley helps! Though I think (Fe) as an addition is more appropriate!
Glad to hear it, Screaming Engles. As a prospective parent and responsible member of society, you should be giving a good example to others.
So why do you start accusing others of being on drugs? A pretty nasty accusation, I think.
Are you really a lawyer?
342 - From a man who continues to smear through a 2 minute silence on Armistice Day, what do you expect?
344 - Is there anything left to smile about these days?
342 - Watch the footage dim Ed, its choreographed.
And both leaders have lost children, bright spark.
344 - (Fe)????
348 Chillax, and have another drink tim.
OGH
Re 343, just how upchuckingly tasteless does a poster have to be on here before they get a yellow card?
343 - My mistake, but for the benefit of those not connected to Galliffreyan computers, just exactly how did you come up with that quote?
347 - Tim, drop it, you’re on shaky ground here.
As someone who has previously defended you, and engaged with you, your comments are vile, and i ask you politely to cease on this subject matter.
314 - Can I have a couple of ounces of whatever you are smoking?
Which would be around £200 per oz at street rates. That kind of gear don’t come cheap. However I guess that one way or another the tax payers are paying for people like Mr Curious, and there habits, so he owes us all a free toke or two anyhow.
Personally as I have already come to the conclusion that Cameron will win by a landslide and then some, I will not bother to vote in the next election for the following reason.
Having spent 18 years of a Conservative Government making excuses for every thing Thatcher and Major did, based on the self-apparent fact that it was all Labours fault for bankrupting just about everything that existed before 1979. I do not intend to bother doing the same for the next 18 years or so. I have far better things to do with my time and energy.
I long since came to the conclusion party politics was a mugs game, run for the interests of papist gangsters and their puppet banksters. Nothing whatsoever that has left Cameron lips for the last few years especially has even slightly convinced me to change my mind.
319. The Independent, again, oh dear. Is this really a newspaper? It surely cant sell enough copy to make any profit, it truly is atrocious. It’s like a fifteen year old Labrador, that is riddled with arthritis and spends all day sitting in the corner of the room, farting. It needs put out of its misery.
353 - Was for 343, Tim.
Just been catching up and am a little confused
Lilly Allen had this to say
“.. By the way it is possible for a group of student friends to be in the same house and post individual comments on the same e mail address without being branded as Trolls,goblins etc. To be banned for hating Cameron is worrying for the state of democracy on this site.
by Lilly Allen December 29th, 2009 at 12:29 pm ..”
then she had this to say
“…As I teacher I too can remember leaking classrooms and shabby buildings when the Tories were in power. I would never like to go back to those days again. Things are much better now , ask any teacher who works in the state system. Same thing applies to hospital buildings and waiting lists. Easy to get selective amnesia about life in Tory Britain but some of us remember.
by Lilly Allen January 3rd, 2010 at 6:54 pm …”
Now is lilly a little fibber or am I missing something?
by don(the other one) January 3rd, 2010 at 10:40 pm
Don (the other one)
well spotted
I would say the two statements appear totally incompatable and thats being polite given recent events. Mature student perhaps? Nah!
I would have thought Lilly Allen needs to clarify quickly just to ensure there are no misunderstandings. ;>)
344 TSE
Lots! For those of us who had their children 30+ years ago!
Never mind, when you are still working at my age, because my generation stole your future, you’ll really curse what we did to you!
343. tim January 3rd, 2010 at 10:59 pm
At least Cameron does not Eat the Babies like Gordon Brown!
343,tim trolling the PB site,every 5 post jump tour
358 - I’ll forgive your generation, and blame Labour instead
Gordon Brown last seen rubbing his pot belly pointing at a child and saying curry! Baby makes good Curry!
334 Next time, CCHQ will dress Dave up as Marcel Marceaus’s “Bip”. Just to keep you happy.
Yeah, right.
Every time tim seeks to mock something the Tories do, put it down as having scored a painful hit against Labour.
349 Oracle
Fe = symbol for iron.
359 - Then Pickles would definitely want another one.
341. oldnat, I agree, but I do think the issue is clouded by the gradual change in society’s standards. What is a resigning matter to one generation can be shrugged off by another.
So where one’s party has been out of power for a long time one might have rose-tinted glasses - except that the expenses scandal has been a great equaliser!
Gordon Brown wins a poll.
as Britain’s worst-dressed man
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/fashion/article6974671.ece
364 - Arrh ok, given the brackets I thought it was some emoticon that hadn’t come out correctly.
tim, you should really stick to your imaginary fine wine collection. Stella makes you bitter and vindictive.
Night all.
369 tim’s more likely to be drinking the antifreeze from his combine harvester. Maybe he’s upset because the subsidy cheque hasn’t arrived?
331. Me January 3rd, 2010 at 10:52 pm
I am puzzled as to what good Tony Blair can do the Labour party in a General Election campaign. Tony Blair is not running for office, he has no power base in British politics or appeal to Labour voters. Floating voters might shake his hand whilst others shout murder / sleazy pig / infedel etc at him!
But get any votes for Labour. No.
Indeed it just reminds all those anti-Labour voters what a cheesy lying trogladite he was to them.
re 237 OldNat
Indeed, a purist might say that the Court of Session was the only true arbiter of such a dispute. You accept however, that it is likely that the Supreme Court would rule in favour of supreme parliamentary sovereignty being applied in Scotland. Whether an appeal to the Supreme Court is constitutionally permissible, surely you realise that de jure this means that unlimited parliamentary sovereignty applies in Scotland too? After all, it would certainly create a constitutional crisis if the Court of Session were to declare that the orders of a higher court by statute were constitutionally invalid. Nevertheless, a truly fascinating constitutional debate.
Ed Balls - Compulsory parenting lessons at 14
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1240379/Lessons-parent-just-14-As-figures-reveal-alarming-rise-teen-pregnancies-Labour-reveal-big-idea.html
Thank you for your kind comments, Boring Bastard.
In fact the taxpayer is not paying for any of my habits, so I owe you nothing. Inndeed, if I were working in the public sector and being paid for the taxpayer, I would still owe you nothing. A fair day´s work for a fair day´s wage and all that, eh? But I´m not even there. Not even a lawyer paid for by the taxpayer (as I think Screaming Eagle is).
What I really object to is the way all the Tory Boy posters accuse everybody they disagree with of being on drugs.
My argument (above) is that, in the event of a Hung Parliament, there are three party leaders that the Queen could send for. The PBC consensus (when attacking the Scot Nats) is that this is indeed the case.
With Brown appearing in interviews on a daily basis from now on, and Cameron with no idea how to reconcile the different lines he has been peddling, there remains Nick Clegg as a reasonable focal point around which to build a new coalition.
The problem is that this solution detroys Caameron´s only USP - that he is not Labour, and that only he can replace Brown as Prime Minister.
372- Martin- They thought Brown would do good to them, what can you expect?
I wonder what role he would have in a marginal seat…
Brown will not deviate from the cuts/investment line as it is all he knows. He sees his entire political success as being based on how much money he has spread out at budget after budget. To change now would undermine all his statements about “locking in” the extra investment (in layman’s terms, spending). The most amusing thing will be watching him denying it, whilst cuts are rolled out across the government. Which is why I am not expecting a budget before the election, because the IFS will tear the figures apart again. If there is another head-in-the-sand moment this government will just look even more foolish…
As to the Tories, if this “dossier” is the game that Labour want to play, then I would simply record every cut coming out and ram it home at every PMQs, week-in, week-out… Keep him on the defensive then it frees you up to lay-out your plans.
Does anyone know if there are any polls in the pipeline?
376. Me January 3rd, 2010 at 11:21 pm
Scarcrow?
374 - Ed Balls stands accused of encouraging teenage pregnancy with plans to give 14-year-olds compulsory parenting lessons.
The Mail thinks that the cervical cancer vaccine encourages teenage pregnancy as well.
377 Brown has already accused the IFS of lying. Desperate is hardly the word.
375 - Not even a lawyer paid for by the taxpayer (as I think Screaming Eagle is).
I’m not paid by the tax payer!
Outrageous slur.
FFS,Yasmin Alibhai-Brown has just praised david cameron on the newspaper review on the bbc.
381 - Can’t be long until the Guardian run an unsubstantiated story about them being a front organisation for the Tories (FE)…
373 Richard Howell
I accept that de facto, the UK can insist that Parliamentary Sovereignty applies to Scotland. However, the de jure is a matter of judgement - and that judgement is essentially “political”.
“truly fascinating constitutional debate.” I totally agree!
382 - The banks?
383 (cont) Including a moronic rant of a quote from Two Shags.
Sorry, Screaming Eagle. I thought you said you were being paid by some schemeing bank or other, which is by now undoubtedly our property.
386 - The only banks that we’ve had as clients, are ones that have never received any state funding.
383. johnno January 3rd, 2010 at 11:27 pm
Bloody hell! I know its cold outside but has Hell Frozern over
382 TSE
Pedant alert!
“I’m not paid by the tax payer!”
Unless your client is the last person in the UK to actually pay any tax - which, given the collapse of tax receipts, might be the situation relatively soon.
383 - Must have been an impostor, according to her every Tory is a baby eating racist.
screaming,me thinks you have upset our tim,he seems to want information on you,watch it son.
Labour fears Blair will be a liability
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6974782.ece
390
391 - Let me introduce you our Tax minimisation Strategies Department.
Curious “What I really object to is the way all the Tory Boy posters accuse everybody they disagree with of being on drugs.”
OK - we’ll blame syphilitic madness then.
Yes, but the problem is that all the consultants, lawyers, advisers etc are just as much part of the public sector payroll, as those who are formal employees.
Except that they cost very much more.
Didn´t the bank in question have its own solicitors?
Terrible thread
394. If Blair is a liability what does that make Brown? A megaliability?
Come March/April/May/June I think Labour candidates could find the words ‘Labour Party Candidate’ after their name will be liability on polling day
207. Hahaha hahahaha hahahaha hahaha haha hahaha hahaha haha haha haha !!!!!!!!!!!
Who is the Tegraph twit on Sky News who thinks airport body scanners can give you cancer?
392,I’am sure she said that she would have to be dead before she would vote tory or labour,but went on to praise david cameron.
398 - They did have their own in house solicitors, however, we were approached, as one of our specialities is contract law, and they needed our advice, on the applicability on how the law effected an English company, that was a Division of a Scottish company, that was wholly owned by an Australian Company.
If you think that Gordon Brown effectively gave away that he’s planning a 6 May election today, you can still get 4/9 with Coral on a May election.
The Coral price of 20/1 on a June election that was available yesterday is now 10/1 (Victor Chandler has made the same move today). 14/1 with Ladbrokes is now the best price that I can see on a June election.
396. I minimise my payment of tax by the following legal means:
I don’t smoke;
I don’t drive;
I don’t drink much;
I live in a house rated band C for council tax.
But the point that I was making was that many Tory posters deposit their own problems on others in order to dismisss their arguments.
So if you think the Tory Boy posters on PBC are suffering from syphilitic madness, so be it. I thought it was just ordinary drug problems.
405 erratum - Paddy Power have 18/1 against a June election.
No half reasonable politician says something in front of a camera that isn’t intended to be heard by the camera’s audience. Certainly not someone with Cameron’s expertise. The sanctimony of some of the posters on here is hilarious!
404 TSE
The Yorkshire Bank, I presume?
407 - Some of us* might have suffered from both Drug problems and syphilitic madness.
*Not me of course, I’m way too pure and innocent to suffer from either.
410 - Yes
404
Ah yes, like Andrew Neil’s London office.
385 oldnat
Does the sovereignty in question even apply to the non-scottish element of the UK?
The Benthamite constitution, established eventually as the ‘doctrine’ of parliamentary sovereignty, refers to ‘Westphalian’ sovereignty. Has that not practically given way to a kind of post-sovereignty, not least following Factortame (1991)& the higher court of the European Court of Justice?
411 - I did wonder about your post with that name on an earlier thread, TSE.
415 - I had a problem with the cookies on my machine, and it used my login details for another site.
Full rundown of best prices I’ve found for the month of next election:
January: 150/1 (Victor Chandler)
February: 40/1 (Victor Chandler)
March: 11/4 (Ladbrokes)
April: 12/1 (Coral)
May: 4/9 (Coral)
June: 18/1 (Paddy Power)
If, Screaming Eagles, you are not suffering from drugs-related problems or from syphilitic mania, you cerainly deserve to be: or your lifestyle as you have described it is a total falsehood.
Whoever would have thought that lawyers were capable of so many lies?
I see Curious with her “Tory Boy posters” rhetoric and smear against TSE is rapidly becoming the LibDems version of tim.
Curious, just admit you were wrong and move on.
418 - Well i’ve only ever done drugs once, 11 years ago, at uni, was an experience never to be repeated.
Re syphilitic madness, that’s a mystery, that i’ve never had an STD. as one of my friends said to me years ago, she was scared she could can an STD from just talking to me.
O/T but for our OGH
Sky sports news have reported that Bolton have approached Burnley about appointing Owen Coyle. Burnley would like £3.5m compensation.
420. The Screaming Eagles January 3rd, 2010 at 11:55 pm
I dont know why people do them. I cannot understand why being ’stoned’ is seen as pleasant. It looks boring and frankly shit and the stuff smells horrible anyway.
The same with all these chemical drugs what the hell is the point? Might as well just get shitfaced to my mind.
Simon St Clare, do take a bit of care…. You continue to state (not just suggest) that I am female.
I have never given any clue, I think, of what gender I might be.
And yet you propositioned me the other evening. Do take care, Simon…
But then you Tory Boys just don´t care, do you?
Bash some international baddies. http://bit.ly/5meutL
Just a bit of fun, just a bit of fun.
Pluck Darling’s eyebrows. Blair thing gruesome but weirdly satisfying. The Greenspan treatment for Brown would be enjoyable but you can’t have everything.
Turn the sound off if you don’t want to go insane.
Martin - I agree with you 100% re drugs.
And may I add that your spell in purgaTory has served to improve enormously the quality of your postings. I look out for them now.
414 ratzo
It might - for England (not my area of expertise). Westphalian sovereignty simply describes the concept of states having sovereignty - not where that resides within each state.
That states choose to pool their sovereignty with others in some form of union, doesn’t alter that ultimate source of sovereignty, for most countries. Their constitution (or legal principles) declare that to lie with that nebulous concept “the people”, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights supports their ultimate authority to determine how they are ruled.
I can see how England might have a problem, however. You(?) believe that sovereignty lies with Parliament - but if Parliament can be overruled by Europe, do you actually have any remaining sovereignty?
An even more fascinating legal debate!
422 - Agreed, they are horrible. But I was young, and kind of went of the rails one month, after nearly 20yrs of being a good boy.
If, as you say, Screaming Eagles, you only ever once took drugs and found it most unpleasant, why do you accuse others of taking drugs and even asking for some of the same?
If you are indeed a lawyer, ought you not to be more careful with your use of language?
426 - But if Parliament can be overruled by Europe, do you actually have any remaining sovereignty
Well the question to the bit is how exactly the EU enforces their sovereignty if we ignore their rules and law
We are a net contributor, and they cant exactly withold our monies
And they don’t have police force or army to enforce their sovereignty
428. I believe, Curious, that Mr Eagles was suggesting in a somewhat facetious way that the fictitious scenario that you postulated is so implausible that it might be mistaken for the result of experimentation with mind-altering substances, by anyone with a less well trained eye than the average pb-er.
428 - You’re no Mark Senior, at least he can be amusing and informative at times.
430 - You’ve read my mind
429 TSE
We’re just back to de facto and de jure with that.
432 - I know, It’s something that really fascinates me
Is it me or have personal attacks become more frequent on pb.com over Christmas / New Year? I haven’t been around much and have only skimmed a few threads but there seems to be something in the air on pb.com, an election perhaps.
Well, if I understand the Tory position correctly, they want to spend lots more on the NHS in poorer areas, on a new high-speed rail network, on overseas aid, and on combating climate change. All very commendable, but if we can afford all this extra spending, presumably they think we don’t have a problem with a deficit? Note that I’ve not even mentioned the IHT cut…
To put it slightly differently: isn’t the Tory message thoroughly confused?
435 - No
NPMP you do realise we are cutting spending elsewhere.
435 - but you did mention it NPMP
And no the message isn’t confused IMO. On the other had in Brown lala land we still have lots of money left to splash around and no need to C-word anything.
435 - Note that I’ve not even mentioned the IHT cut…
Now that is a perfect example of Schroedingers cat
grr had = hand
436 TSE
“we are cutting spending elsewhere”. Of course you are. What else would you be doing with twins on the way?
However, if “we” means the Tories - what are the cuts, in which areas of public spending, and are they on reserved or devolved powers?
The £178 Billion Question
The state of the public finances will dominate the election debate. Gordon Brown is showing a lack of seriousness, let alone courage, in addressing it.
The defining issues of this year’s election will be the future of the economy and the state of the public finances. The tough outlook for household budgets will be the decisive factor at the polls. The grim reality of the Treasury coffers will determine what the next Government can do. At the start of this political year, however, Gordon Brown is not treating the deficit seriously, let alone courageously.
The Prime Minister likes to ask whether the country wants jobs, investment and growth or recession, cuts and unemployment. This is not a choice, it is a slogan — and not a very catchy one at that. The real question is not for the public, but the politicians: what do Mr Brown and his Government propose to do about reforming the State and reducing the budget deficit? For the Government’s plans on this front are occasional and obscure. In an interview yesterday Mr Brown reiterated the claim that the Government would halve the deficit within four years while increasing public spending by 0.8 per cent a year. But how?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article6974760.ece
440 - Well if Cameron is astute, abolish the Barnett Formula, cut reserved powers spending.
And grant the Scottish Executive more tax raising/cutting powers, and allow the Scottish Executive to increase spending via tax increases if they so wish, or if they would like to cut spending more, and cut taxes accordingly.
Yes, Andrew, but that is Tory-speak for “I disagree”. I don´t mind in the least if people disagree with me - and indeed, if they are Tories, I welcome it….
(I confess that I am beginning to be a bit worried by some of Martin D´s recent posts, because I agree with many of them/he agrees with me… However…)
What I resent is that some people start accusing me of comsuming drugs and asking for some of the same - when they themselves confess afterwards that they have only consumed drugs but once and did not like them. Similarly the Simon St Clair´s gender insinuations…. Very nasty - and all from Toires.
Tim and Gabble (with whom I usually disagree) are not like this…
Such accusations - which come principally from “the Tory herd” - are very unpleasant, interrupt discussion and put people off. I have posted once or twice about the possiblility of Nick Clegg´s becoming the next prime minister. No rational response. Nasty…. I am “just on drugs…. Case dismissed…..
And yet the very argument used on PBC against Salmond´s participation in a Leaders Debate recognised that Nick Clegg is a potential Prime Minister after the next election.
If we are betting on political outcomes, we ought at least to give it some rational consideration.
OK. Christina did a flounce and has disappeared for the time being. James likewise. I miss them both - even as I disagreed with both.
If this site becomes a Tory monopoly, as ni almost is, jouranlists will cease to take it into account.
442 TSE
Not exactly an answer. You said “we are cutting spending elsewhere”.
Where? - or don’t you know?
429 It is hypothetical anyway. EU directives and treaties have force by section 2 of the European Communities Act 1972. That is the basis of Factortame. It is not that sovereignty was ceded to the EU by virtue of the treaties themselves. Legally, if the Act were repealed, judges could not enforce EU law in our courts even if we remained an EU member.
The concept of Parliament ceding any sovereignty whatsoever is very tricky. There is a school of thought that Parliament could repeal the Australia Act 1986 or the Canada Act 1982 etc, and begin direct rule from London again. This is becuase once you accept there are limits on parliamentary sovereignty, you allow primary legislation to be struck down by the courts, which has been considered hitherto unconstitutional.
443 – Curious, I thought you were a women, I apologise unreservidly for the mistake but that is all it was, a mistake.
444 - As I understand it, the only budgets that wont be cut, will be Health, International Development and the Department for Climate change.
Everywhere, prepare to get slashed like a victim of Freddie Krueger.
426 oldnat
fascinating answer.
I suppose we have to be clear that political and legal sovereignty are not identical.
I think the notion of post-sovereignty attempts to acknowledge the transformed European scene in which there is a higher court but it is not precisely sovereign in the classical sense (hence it is post-sovereign). At the same time there is the legal issue of democratic representation which is explicit in the Human Rights legislation as the principle of self-determination, and likewise in the parallel principle of subsidiarity.
Is it possible that the Scottish political (Buchananite) tradition of sovereignty seems to find this less difficult than the mainstream Benthamite tradition of parliamentary sovereignty?
And if there is really a final recourse to Europe for some constitutional questions does this mean that in fact legal sovereignty (and perhaps not only in respect of Scottish constitutional affairs) has passed to Europe and only waits for political sovereignty to follow?
443 - In my defence, I have accused some of my fellow Tories of being on meds.
I was intrigued by your theory of Nick Clegg being PM, just how many MP’s do the Lib Dems need to win, for a coalition to be led by Nick Clegg?
My own betting positions, will be most profitable if the Lib Dems do well at the GE (better than they did in 2005, in terms of share of vote and seats)
404 Clydsdale Bank
445 Richard Howell
“There is a school of thought that Parliament could repeal the Australia Act 1986 or the Canada Act 1982 etc, and begin direct rule from London again.”
That’s a pretty weird school of thought! Have they considered that Australia and New Zealand copied Parliamentary Sovereignty from you - but that sovereignty resides in their own Parliaments. Exactly in which legal jurisdiction do they fantasise that London could be judged to legally resume ruling the Antipodes?
Fascinating legal debates are one thing - the insane meanderings of Imperialists something else altogether!
451 - The world was much better when the sun never set on the British Empire
451. Surely on the basis that HM The Queen owns both Australia and New Zealand.
435. ROFL, its past midnight, and NPMP soon to be NP, has his new briefing notes.
The utter bare faced cheek, for a Government that has annual public sector deficit of £200,000,000,000, to criticise the opposition is really quite amusing.
I imagine once in office, the sobering reality will result in many things being quietly dropped, the question is though, what is Darling’s and Brown’s excuse? They are experienced, they know how it all works, and they know the public finances are in a real serious mess, yet they continue to make it worse.
Quite frankly, your government is doing such a bad job at the moment, that the opposition could offer to turn us all into millionaires and have a zero rate of tax, and they would still be more credible.
Wow
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1240335/Camerons-brush-loaded-gun.html
‘kin hell Tony Blairs playing darts on BBC2!
451/452 - I should make one thing clear. On another messageboard I frequent, a couple of days ago, there was a thread entitled
“If you were born a 100 years earlier, what would be your ideal job”
and I replied “Viceroy of India”
Cue lots of people accusing me of being a racist/imperialist etc
453 - There is a school of thought, that says America is still one of our colonies.
451 The argument is that sovereignty resides in their own Parliaments by virtue of Acts of Parliament or Orders-in-Council of the United Kingdom. That devolution of power is therefore subject to change at any point by further Act of Parliament. If Parliamentary sovereignty truly exists, then there can be no limits as to what Parliament can pass. It is of course completely hypothetical, because if we did try and rule another country in that way we would become a laughing stock and such Acts would be de facto invalid. It is simply taking the principal to its logical conclusion.
Bruce Anderson: In a body-language election there can be only one winner
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/bruce-anderson/bruce-anderson-in-a-bodylanguage-election-there-can-be-only-one-winner-1856796.html
458. I was flicking through a book in Waterstones today, coincidentally, which seemed to be pretty certain that the Queen is the legal owner of about 1/6 of the world’s surface. Which I rather liked. Apparently by that metric the British Empire has only decreased in size by 22% since its absolute zenith.
461 - I can believe that. She is certainly the most powerful woman in the world, being Head of State of so many countries.
Whether she chooses to exercises those powers is another matter
443 Curious. I had thought that the composition of the posters on this site had actually broadened out of the ‘Tory herd’ over the past couple of months. When I first started lurking in April/May 09, there seemed to be very few labour or LibDem.
Personally, I find most of the name calling extremely tedious. Some, especially SeanT in his better moments, can be highly entertaining. For those threads where little interesting is being said and the childishness quotient is high, I skim and go. I don’t understand why more don’t also.
OK. The discussion seems to be more rational now.
Simon St Clare. Apology accepted. No problem. On PBC, I am “sexually indeterminate” since I have not made any disclosure, as most have not. But I would suggest that you do make a bit of preliminary exploration in future before making advances….
There was a joke on here about this earlier on….. Bus driver and nuns, if you remember….
Ah Screaming Eagles, my betting position is the same…. Lib Dems win, I win…. Agreed on that…
How many seats do the Lib Dems need to win in order to head the next government coalition?
No idea really. Thought you all might have some suggestions. [No answer that you lot gave on here: "you are on drugs...." Still rankles... I like speculation and possiblities, however remote...]
No hard feelings really and have revoked thoughts about “doing a Christina”… who I would like to see make a return.
448 ratzo
“I suppose we have to be clear that political and legal sovereignty are not identical.” Not sure that I agree with that. Legal systems which describe sovereignty are established by states (perhaps in the case of the EU a proto-state?). Sovereignty always remains with the people - except in the case of England, some of it’s ex-colonies, Israel, and Finland (which is a special case).
I hadn’t thought of the contrast before, but I wonder if the acceptance of the EU (though a wish to reform it is widespread) in most EU countries compared to the antagonism to it so obvious in England (and exported to Scotland through the media) might be based on the fragility of England being in a Union 9unless it is the dominant partner).
For what it’s worth, Iain Dale thinks Brown’s interview was a failure.
453 AndrewG
To use the classic Scottish double affirmative negative =
Aye, right!
464 - The only way I can see Nick Clegg becoming PM, is if Labour collapses big style, and the Lib Dems are the larger in number of MP’s than Labour.
However if that scenario happens, i can see a lot of unexpected tory gains.
If Labour are larger, and go into coalition, with the Lib Dems, I can two conditions Nick Clegg imposing, 1) Vince as Chancellor 2) Someone from Labour other than Gordon Brown as PM
458 TSE
There is a school of thought that says we are one of theirs!
467 - Oldnat, btw has Seth O Logue’s and I’s love bombing of you had any effect?
Will you be voting Tory at the GE?
Or do we have to ramp up the bombing?
469 - Indeed, somedays, we feel like a giant American missile base.
471. That’s morning wood for you.
If (sorry when) Scotland goes independent, will you become a republic?
470 TSE
i have the same affection for you guys, as I have for some of my Republican and Democrat friends in the USA.
If I ever move to your countries, then I’ll certainly listen to your views as to how I should vote.
472 - You’re obsessed!
Oldnat, you’re always such a charming chat, that you’ve distracted me so much, that I’ve realised that I have to be up in less than 5hrs time, to get to work.
465 Oldnat. I doubt England’s antipathy to the EU is to do with the Union. First, I think there is more antipathy towards the EU in other countries than you are crediting. But even taking your position that England is a special case, I think it has more to do with England, through the UK, thinking it can have a better place in the world on its own than through the EU.
For the other EU countries, I would posit these reasons why they are less critical of the EU than England:
1. small countries see the EU as a way to more influence in the world by acting together rather than individually
2. poorer countries see the EU as a source of regional funds and of cheaper credit (via the Euro/European Bank)
3. Germany still has the national guilt, uses the EU as a means of not projecting German power
4. France thinks it runs the EU, therefore they don’t have to worry about France being subsumed by it
5. Spain saw it as a way back from a lost empire
6. The newbies see it as a sine qua non for becoming real modern countries.
473 TSE
Who knows? We’ll decide when we get there. For the record, SNP policy is that there should be a referendum on that at some point after independence - a bit like Australia (see above).
NB We like the idea of referenda on constitutional issues - something to do with the sovereignty of the people, I expect. Pity that you guys are tied to the idea that your Parliament makes up your minds for you serfs.
464 - Good to see you posting again, Curious. I remember you from your previous incarnations as John13 and Tressage. I trust that time has treated you well?
467 oldnat Or the New York burbs’ “yeah, yeah” (dropping tone)
Screaming Eagles. That is what I was talking about (more or less). If Labour collapses, who is the non-Tory leader if one discarts Cameron (who would be destined to be a failure IMHO).
Either Brown or Clegg.
Brown has been rejected by the electorate. Tory Peebies (passim).
So if there is no ovewhemlming majority in Parliament?
Who is the parliamentary leader who might commend a majority, who is not either Brown nor Cameron?
Clegg…
This needs to be discussed seriously on PBC. I think it is a betting possibility, however remote it may seem to some.
477 TimT
Many of these factors may well be true, but I still suspect that the English fondness for Parliamentary Sovereignty is a factor.
OK, I admit that I post on this on primarily English sites because it really winds people up!
But the fact that many of you guys respond so defensively to criticism of the principle is itself revealing.
481 Curious. In my 40+ years of following politics around the globe, I don’t recall an occasion where a coalition of two parties has been led by the smaller of the two parties. Glad to be given an historical instance to prove me wrong.
In short, I just don’t see the real politik wrangling and negotiations that would get us to Clegg as the PM in a coalition government, unless the LibDems have more seats than Labour in a hung parliament.
Nick Clegg. Prime Minister?
Either a female fantasy or drug-induced delusion.
Probably both.
477 TimT
And ‘cos they’ve naffed the Eurovision Song Contest…
484 Seth O. Logue
I suspect it’s your wickedness that makes me quite like you!
Scottish sovereignty?
Just do as you’re told Jimmy.
[Still like me?]
482 Oldnat. Sorry, missed the wind up. Glad you have fun with it
We all need to take ourselves and others a little less seriously.
Perfect segue to being serious…
I think the point of the people vs Parliament being sovereign is little more than semantics. After all, Parliament is only given sovereignty through a monopoly of power granted, and renewed, by the people every 5 years. In an ideal world, I’d rather live in a republic where the power and sovereignty of the people were formalized in a constitution. But the fact of the matter is that the English and US practices of democracy demonstrate very little end effect on the people’s sovereignty. In the UK, the government is sovereign, in the US, the power brokers of Congress are, subject to the assent of the Supreme Court. All the people can do in either case is kick the bums out.
465 oldnat
“Not sure that I agree with that.”
It was only to mark the difference between the law and the state in the use of the term. The UK has Rechtstaatslichkeit in practice and in aspiration, but of course famously it is not complete.
With regard to the point about English resistance to assimilation into Europe, I suspect it is partly to with emerging unresolved conflicts and tensions to do with a non-British English identity in the context of a historically impressive national culture.
I’m giving up reading the threads before posting.
It is like becoming a vet. Seven years of qualifications just to put a cat to sleep.
By the time I’ve finished everyone but the non-flouncing Scots have gone to bed!
490 Seth O Logue
“By the time I’ve finished everyone but the non-flouncing Scots have gone to bed!”
And the US-based contingent.
For a start, Tim, the Lib Dems may have more seats then Labour after the next election….. Maybe….
And if Brown continues with his demented denial of reality, a bit more then maybe…
But look at this.. In the event of a hung Parliament, Cameron has already declared that the Consevative position is almost the same as the Lib Dem position. OK . Not all Tories woudl agree with that, but Camneron is after all their leader and they do what he says….
And today (or yesterday) a Labour minister declared that the Labour position is almost entirely the same as the Lib Dem position.
In other words, both Tories and Labour agree with the platform that the Lib Dems are putting forward almost entirely.
Cameron´s latest is to suggest that we need a government of national unity to confront the crisis. Now, of the national three party leaders - Brown, Cameron and Clegg - who would command the greatest support?
Both Labour and Conservatives have, apparently, already fallen into line behind the Lib Dem position.
487 Seth
Doesn’t worry me, mate!
488 TimT
While I enjoy the wind up, I actually think it really matters. I was brought up on the “boot” theory of politics which you have outlined - politicians will always act in their interests, rather than ours. the only thing that keeps them in line is if they are regularly booted out.
491 TimT
I thought you took the Foreign Office exams and have therefore been taught reasonable debate.
The nights are not for diplomats. Take on a secret night life. join in the bare-knuckle boxing.
491 TimT
I’m only up because I’ve remained on NC time since my last trip there.
492 - Curious, you really are on a wind up now, aren’t you?
The LDs only get more seats than Labour after the next election if they do the sensible thing and turn their fire on Labour to actually become the sensible (slightly less barmy?) left wing party in the country.
They cannot do that because Clegg has to balance the logical opportunity to make headroad whilst Labour are weak against the demands of LD incumbants in seats previously won from the Tories who would find themselves jobless come the election.
Therefore, the chances of the LDs having more seats than Labour at this point are so infintessimally small as to not be worth considering.
To further answer your question on which leader would garner most support as PM in a national government, the polls are clear that Cameron has much more support than either Clegg or Brown and, more importantly, is not more disliked than the alternatives.
495 oldnat
*giggles*
You old nightbird!
You are being a little Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath with that claim!
Oh, I thought Cameron was far more disliked than Clegg, whose ratings are very positive.
Which is why Clegg would be best as the leader of a national government. Which is what Cameron is now calling for.
Could Cameron get support from previous Labourites?
OK. Some, in that he is not Brown or even Blair. But not all that many.
Far better Clegg as a national leader. He has some support fron all sides. And a first class front bench team.
Very interesting point.
494 Seth O Logue
Ten years in the FCO dies hard. I should have liked politics but for the bare knuckle fighting part. Perhaps I should join ChristinaD afterall!
If I take on this secret night life persona, should I adopt another name for posting?
The best election tactics for the Lib Dems is to go local.
No national campaign. No manifesto packed full of costed and differentiated policies.
Just oppose the Tories in Southern constituencies and Labour in the North. And plead for clemency in Scotland.
GE 2010 is an election to survive. Lie low, Mr Clegg. Your opportunity will come in by-elections from the mid-point of Cameron’s first term. Hope Labour divide and implode and seize the centre-left.
Just don’t pin your hopes on the TV Debates. They are not a beauty contest and Nick Clegg is no beauty Queen. They will only be exercises for voters to confirm their prejudices in advance of the real vote.
497 Seth
It’s the joy of being retired! I found that posting in the early hours was quite fun, so I didn’t bother with readjusting to Scottish time - makes no sodding difference in winter here anyway!
It was very difficult when I was living in Moscow to get my FCO friends to go out at night.
I kept telling them what delights Moscow had to offer the nightbird but only succeeded in enticing one friend once.
He was subsequently posted to the Mongolian Embassy.
Maybe he should have adopted a night persona.
502 for Tim T
Time for a quick blether with Mrs Nat, then onto reading my Xmas presents. Night all (well “all” may be a bit of an overestimate).
On ChristinaD
I posted a wish last night that James Kelly would return to the blog. I hadn’t been around for the night threads that had caused the KOs and only skimmed a few of them to see what went on. I didn’t realise that Christina had announced she was going too. So in the interests of balance and fairness I would add my support for her return too.
As James tends to fly against the prevailing political winds, he may have less support for a recall, but his contribution as a poster is just as valued.
Time for a double return!
504 oldnat
I am happy to be addressed in the plural.
Night oldnat.
502 Seth O Logue. Ulam Bator! The FCO used to allow diplomats in shitholes a little regular R&R through taking the diplomatic bag out. I always thought it a little unfair, though. The diplomats in Peking got to take the bag to Hong Kong, whereas those in Ulam Bator only got to go to Peking.
Mind you, when I was in Yemen (Sana’a, the then Yemen Arab Republic), those in Cairo got to go to Cyprus, those in Jeddah then Riyadh got to go to Cairo, we got to go to Jeddah/Riyadh. Still, we weren’t the bottom of the pecking order. The poor sods in Aden (then PDRY) go to come to lovely Sana’a.
That 178 Billion statistic.
Much emotion is being exercised that the fiscal deficit and borrowing requirement is as high as GBP 178 billion.
It is a forecast figure, based on assumptions as to revenue and spending.
Revenue. The figure for revenue was forecast at GBP 498 billion in April 2009, since when it has been mentioned in most news media that receipts are well down on last year.
Spending. Spending was budgeted in April 2009 as GBP 678 billion. In the Novemeber PBR Darling confirmed all the forecasts.
Yet in December 2009 the Treasury Spending Outturn Figures, spending was totalled at GBP 620 billion, a magic reduction of GBP 60 billion in a month.
If revenues have fallen by GBP 60 billion to under GBP 440 billion, which is very possible, the only way to keep the declared borrowing target as valid, would be to reduce the budgeted spending figure by GBP 60 billion to match.
There are two vast unexplained ‘accounting adjustments’ in the December HM Treasury Spending Outturn Report, totalling GBP 185 billion, more than enough to keep spending down to keep the borrowing target of GBP 178 billion intact.
But common sense tells you that the figure must be past its sell-by date. If you add back the GBP 60 billion, it’s nigh on GBP 240 billion.
But spending too has been creeping up since forecasts in April 2009 as the recession has assumed a severity and a duration Darling could not have foreseen. It would not be surprising if spending had risen by about GBP 60 billion also.
The borrowing requirement could be anywhere you like, but an estimate of GBP 300 billion would not be beyond imagination. As the government is playing around with the figures, as if billions were packets of Smarties, you can make up your own figure. But one thing is certain, the GBP 178 billion, or 12.5% of GDP has long gone.
505 Seth O Logue. I had missed James Kelly’s departure. Don’t agree with (m)any of his posts, but then don’t agree with his departure either.
Quite agree. Seth O. Let them both make a comeback.
Even more interesting this site then.
Provided they do not talk about cats.
507 Tim T
Are you out of the FCO now?
VA, NC is an interesting place to reside after a diplomatic career.
R&R in the Middle East is not my idea of fun, but I guess Cairo is OK. One of me muckers went Washington-London-Iraq-Cairo and he seems to be quite happy with life but then he was a born Arabist.
510 Tim T
Thinking back you are in Atlanta aren’t you?
Maybe I should withdraw the second para of 510.
510/511 Seth O Logue
You’re confusing me with TimB who is in Hotlanta. I’m in very cold (currently) northern MD (Damascus - quite appropriate for an Arabist, both in name and because it is a dry town!!)
I left the FCO in 1990, but then did a four year stint with UNSCOM 1992-95, which drew on both my Arabist and disarmament (CBW) background. After forays into entirely other fields, I am almost back to my old field, this time with an NGO focussing on biosafety and biosecurity with a geographic concentration on the Middle East and North Africa.
512 Tim T
I was beginning to worry that my teasing might have gone too far. MD I guess is within the ‘circle of confidence’ around Washington DC along with VA and NC. Glad though that all is disclosable.
Do you still travel to the ME much? It is not an area of the world I have done business in although my father worked in the region for various UN agencies or independently for most of his life.
Seth 513 Sorry, cooking, making a log fire, looking after sick cat, all takes away from PB.com and responding.
Still go about 2-4 times per year, pretty much everywhere. May increase this year if a big grant proposal comes off.
If you email me as info@zotrestaurant.com, i can fill you in on more details offline.
Have to go now.