Are the debates looking less likely?
January 24th, 2010
Could they fall down in a row over studio audience?
Interesting piece by David Wooding in the News of the World about rows between the parties over the formats for the planned leaders’ debates.
The big issue is about the audiences - how they should be made up and whether they should be involved in the questioning. Apparently both Cameron and Brown don’t want direct questions from the floor for fear of being ambushed. But it’s who is in the audience that is causing most problems.
Wooding writes: .“The PM wants the audience packed with almost twice as many Labour supporters as Tories, to reflect his Commons majority.
But furious Mr Cameron is insisting there should be more of his followers as he is well ahead in the polls. Broadcasters fear the wrangling could derail Britain’s first TV leaders’ debate.
An insider said last night: “We’ve had two months of talks about the format for the debates. There have been disagreements about which leader shakes hands first, where they stand on stage and how much camera time they get. But the audience has been the biggest sticking point so far.”
Who can blame the party camps? These events could be game-changing and each wants to ensure that the formats suit their flag-bearers best.
If agreement cannot be reached then there will be one mighty battle over who was to blame. If the Wooding suggestion is correct that Brown wants the audience to be split in line with the number of MPs then he’s surely onto a loser. That just sounds so unreasonable particularly as Labour got its majority last time with just 36.2% of the vote.
I can see a big public row blowing up.
Mike Smithson
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Just scrap the thing - Sounds like a Bag of Bollocks to me!
I hope tim hasn’t missed the new thread.
Cameron and Brown look like a right pair of dick heads over this
If they can’t sort it out just let them debate without an audience, like a naughty football club playing a match behind closed doors.
FPT - PtP same undertaking as last time
I have to say that Gordon’s rationale is probably the most bizarre I’ve ever heard.
Why don’t they just hold a ballot - or not have an audience ?
1 Current odds Huhne 1/2 Conservatives 6/4 time to put your money where your mouth is and supplement your dole money .
The whole thing (the debates) is getting childish. If they cannot agree a neutral format then the whole thing should be scrapped. It is already biased against the smaller parties and chances are it will be utterly tedious (sleep inducing) anyway.
I imagine by now over half the country cannot bare to listen to Brown, Cameron has been repeating himself for the last 12 months and Clegg cannot make up his mind what policies he’s going to go with (they now have an education policy on the Libdem web-site but it promises to scrap tuition fees and I thought Clegg had ruled that out?).
If we have a session of the petty trivial sniping that has been going for at least the last 12 months picking out trivia then the only thing these debates will do is poor further ridicule onto our Parliamentary system and after the mess MP’s and the Government have made in recent years and particularly this year it really could do without it….
Wooding writes: etc etc.
This story has as much credibility as the Kelly Report, right up there with Freddie Starr ate my hamster imo.
Re 7. poor = pur doh!
PtP - Although as it was a donation to charity at stake GOHF is irrelevant toian adjudication.
Re 9 pur = pour (damned wireless keyboard - double doh!)
How will “supporter” status be determined? Personal declaration (unverifiable) or party membership which in my view would be unacceptable - all over 18s with the vote are equally involved in the democratic process and it is wrong that individuals should buy preferred status by bunging their party a tenner. Public application and ballot (as with Chilcot/brown) is the only way.
On topic both Brown and Cameron arw running scared of giving Clegg the exposure and they will both try to syop the debates going ahead .
See Timmy it wasn’t that hard was it. It only took several days of wriggling, acting like a child anytime anybody asked you about this issue and GOHF even saying he was willing to just let you donate to charity rather than his bank balance!
Take note anybody else who thinks they may want to take a bet up with Timmy Thicket.
13
Absolutely Mark, absolutely.
12 Indeed any seeding of the audience is potentially offensive….
13, hahaha, bollocks.
Brown’s worried he’ll drop a clanger. Cameron’s worried it could prove a game changer. As usual, Clegg is a minor player.
13 - Mark, you forgot the
at the end of that joke.
Cameron should hang tough. Brown is ten points behind, he needs these debates more than the Tories. He will give in.
The idea that Labour should get a biased audience - commensurate with the number of MPs they got in, er, 2005, is so astonishingly and bewilderingly cock-eyed I find it hard to believe Labour really made this request.
As this is the first process of its kind, I think it’s perfectly understandable that both men are taking up the most extreme positions possible as their starting points in the negotiations. I don’t think this means that the debates won’t go ahead - it just means that both sides will have to give a lot of ground.
5 agreed - the Parties will try to get activists there by hook or by crook but a lottery for places would add uncertainty and get more interest.
7 judging on the campaign so far (3 weeks of it) that the way its going. Labour clutching at any straw, Cameron throwing in unnecessary sound bites (doesn’t have to do that to get heard, its a campaign, journalists are listening) and Clegg shouty and inconsequential on what matters.
13. Priceless, absolutely priceless
ROFLMAO
14 - I agreed days ago.
Now its time for you and the other simpletons to take a break.
time to put your money where your mouth is and supplement your dole money .
by Mark Senior January 24th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
6,was they any need for you to write that at the end of your post senior,some lib dem supporters are turning the lib dem party into the nasty party.
23 - No, you said you would under pressure from the likes of SeanT, but from what Ptp said on the previous thread he never heard from you. That is very different.
3-1 to Stoke!!!!
Mark Senjior has a point.
Clegg was always going to be the biggest gainer, Cameron recent perfoances don’t inspire confidence and Brown never comes over well on TV
Perhaps Ptp should be appointed arbiter on the Cameron/Brown dispute over selection of the debate TV audience. Why not get YouGov to select the audience from their current known pool of undecided voters?
24 Agreed - why anyone thinks it’s a *clever/funny* thing to make disparaging remarks about Martin’s personal circumstances is beyond me.
10 Noted, Tim.
Can you email please your views and point me in the direction of the relevant posts.
If Ghost is around, he’s welcome to do likewise, although I agree his input isn’t essential.
17 Morris, wash your mouth out. Brown does not drop clangers - he is always telling us how as he goes round the country meeting people, despite being very shy, they thank him for the action he has taken and want to talk about Labour’s successes in education and health. It must be Cameron running scared of the clunking fist.
My recollection is that the US Presidential debates are heard in silence by the audience. And all the questions are asked by the one Dimbleby-figure, with nothing asked from the floor. If that principle is agreed, then as long as it is upheld, you could have a crowd of BNP-ers - it wouldn’t matter. So I can only assume that none of the other issues have been resolved either.
23 Erm, so why is PtP just asking for the relevent posts and your views at 30?
pwn8d.
32 - Not sure that is quite correct. I thought one of the debates was in the style of a “Town Hall” Meeting.
32 They must have remarkable self-control!!
should clegg be even at these GE debates on tv,a party of 63,when the rules should have been that one hundred and over MP’s was for your party leader to join the debates
14 Oracle
To the best of my knowledge, he has to date a perfectly honorable record in relationto his bets.
I don’t think it is right to malign another poster in that way without presenting the clearest evidence.
On the debates; am I mistaken, or in the US presidential ones, is the audience not silent? They don’t clap, woop, cheer or ask questions. It’s all down to the moderator. Why not just go with that?
13 - and the only things afraid of Clegg are various assorted cacti and one and at least one and a half score of ladies.
24 - that’s not fair. The Lib Dems are a basically alright bunch despite being earnestly wrong about just about everything, and they don’t deserve to be judged on the dismally low standards of a pathetic specimen such as Mark Senior.
I don’t think that Gordon Brown wants these debates to go ahead at all, and this latest wrangling over the make up of the audience is simple blocking/dithering tactics.
QT was able to host audience based programmes with each of the leaders individually back in 2005. They also hosted debates with Cameron/Davis and Clegg/Huhne during the Tory and Libdem leadership contests as well. Now its perfectly clear that both Clegg and Cameron were happy and confident to take part in these debates, and both go around the country doing their question and answer road shows as well.
Only one person finds it difficult to deal with the public, in fact they go to major lengths to avoid any open public forum style contact, and that is Gordon Brown. If he is reluctant to even accept an audience in the studio without attempting to arrange a hand picked group of Labour activists, it doesn’t bode well for these debates or the GE campaign. I suspect that Cameron is simple trying to prevent Brown from moving the goal posts.
21. Ted which is why I don’t understand why the media have been so desperate to have the debates this time around.
The fact is because of the recession this camapaign is probably going to be one of the most depressing and dull in a generation. All the parties can do is talk about cuts and ‘aspirations’. To me that doesn’t make for good TV debating.
Given thats the case if the debates dissolve into cheap partisan sniping or obsesses on the intricacies of public debt vs deficit it potentially will kill them off for future elections.
I really don’t see why they even contemplated it this time round because it really doesn’t have a good chance of success and given Cameron’s previous demands for debates he would hardly be in a position to turn them down and the general position of the country could well be much positive at the time of the next GE. Especially as it is the first time. IMO they should have waited until next GE……
32. “My recollection is that the US Presidential debates are heard in silence by the audience.”
Precisely - they’re sanitised beyond belief. Why anyone thinks the American system is such a great model and would represent an enhnacement of our democratic process - especially in our parliamentary, multi-party system - is beyond me.
37. PtP.
In this case, the evidence is totally clear, I’m afraid.
Tim offered to pay £50 is anyone could answer a question; TGOHF answered the question, and tim is refusing to pay up on the grounds that the answer is “wrong” (without ever saying what the right answer is).
28 Great idea, Goupillon!
Now, let me see….Martin Day, Ave It, SeanT…..
How am I doing so far?
33 - And the further contributions of an airhead are unnecessary.
45.
Shut up, welcher.
34. “I thought one of the debates was in the style of a “Town Hall” Meeting.”
Yes, but the questions were all selected in advance, and for the most part the questioners had to stick rigidly to their agreed script, while everyone else kept silent. It was a ‘town hall meeting’ in the same sense the Tory party conference is a democratic forum.
44. Ptp - Hmmmmmm………
At least one of the last US debates was ‘town hall’ style. Hence the fame of Joe the plumber http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_Plumber
As for this story, I don’t believe a word of it. Labour are not daft enough to ask for such an imbalance in the audience, even as an opening gambit in negotiations and Cameron has been practising taking questions from anyone for bloody ages so I cant see him running scared at this point.
Arsenal out of the FA Cup losing 3-1 to Stoke
The Gooners are gonners!
Oh dear what a shame, never mind……
Timmy spitting his dummy again, all because he got caught with his pants down. Reminds me of his 24hr screaming like a baby over his Majority Man incident.
Just checked, Debate #2 of 2008 Presidental Elections was a Town Hall Meeting taking questions from the audience (and questions sent in from the internet).
47 - Point taken, although think that is a bit harsh. QT pre-screens the questions does it not?
The silence from the audience from such an event is quite plain weird to watch.
O/T (sorry) what are the mechanics of a March election? Now Bob Ainsworth has leaked 6th May it probably won’t be that date! When in Feb will Gordon have to book sites or do other preparation ?
51. Oracle
all because he got caught with his pants down
Ugh, gross! Please no images of such grotesqueness before the 10pm watershed….
After all the talk of the 4000+ laws this government had introduced, bit of fun…
Britain’s oddest laws revealed
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7066783/Britains-oddest-laws-revealed.html
One other point. Sky/BBC/ITV should have either sat in a room and thrashed out the details of these debates from locations, format, and questions and audience before inviting the leaders of the main parties to participate. Or they should have decided individually and presented this to each of the party leaders. It should have been a simple yes or no scenario, but this method simple allows Brown to wriggle and demand concessions causing it all to become messy and drawn out. Both Cameron and Clegg agreed immediately to the idea of these leadership debates, it was Brown that dragged his feet before eventually agreeing.
56 - When Sky first announced they were definitely going to have a debate (even if the leaders didn’t turn up), didn’t the BBC claim that is what they were trying to do and that it was that Sky went rogue on them?
Both leaders are absolutely right to focus on the audience. Audience composition didn’t used to matter that much when audiences were generally well-behaved, but now when they tend to be rude and abusive the leaders correctly realise how important their response will be to the whole way the debates are viewed. When someone makes a big point and the audience fails to clap, for example, it always looks bad at programmes like Question Time.
36. Without Clegg, Brown would have been able to use the ‘Tory media’ excuse to avoid a debate.
Stoke 3 France 1 - great stuff.
The debates are a waste of time and the Tories should just let them go by the board.
More on the bunker mentality in the White House. Brown (of the Gordon variety) watcher might recognize some elements:
“If they could find a moment of clarity to examine why Americans are so drawn to genuine figures — Ronald Reagan and Harry Truman come immediately to mind — they might yet find political redemption and begin to understand the American longing for honesty over intellect, straightforwardness over arrogant subterfuge. You know, something like that “hope” and “change” thingy.
“But that’s a hard road few travel in American politics. Redemption requires a contrite heart and true respect for the American voter, neither of which seem readily apparent in the White House or among top Democrat leaders today.”
Of all the things that are upsetting voters in the US, and I suspect the UK too, this ‘respect for voters’ and the intellectual left’s persistent condescending attitude towards them will, I think, prove the most powerful come election time. It will energize the grass roots of the right, sway the centre, and demotivate left-leaning voters while doing nothing to fire up the activists on the left.
Leadership matters, and voters want leaders they can trust. That means bye bye Brown and Labour, bye bye Democrats, and watch out Obama.
59,with clegg - little mini me to brown.
58.Both leaders are absolutely right to focus on the audience
Perhaps they should select the electorate on the basis of their manners as well (I’m joking)?
If politicians don’t get to choose who makes up the electorate why should they get to choose who gets to ask them questions in a national debate?
62. I think you’ll find it was Clegg who ‘kebabed’ Brown this week at PMQs, not Cameron.
Interesting,
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/goldlist/2010/01/the-labour-and-lib-dem-mps-in-tory-target-seats-who-will-avoid-the-electorates-verdict-at-the-genera.html
Both Brown and Cameron look quite petty, but it is completely understandable.
Get rid of the audience, or allocate tickets by ballot, with party members strictly forbidden.
64. But it was Angus Robertson’s short question that really got Brown on the hook.
66 - “with party members strictly forbidden.”
How would you ensure this?
63. jsfl: If politicians don’t get to choose who makes up the electorate
Ah, you’ve uncovered the next stage in Gordon’s Plan…
57.Oracle, I vaguely remember there was a stooshy about this at the time. But the latest wrangling shows that the TV trio have not got their own act together enough to prevent this kind of wrangling. If they really wanted these debates to go ahead so badly, and they know their obligations to be totally fair and balanced, why all this stupid horse trading now? They have dealt with Cameron and Clegg before in this type of leadership style debate, and they should know how Brown’s team operate by now, why leave it all to chance like this?
Doesn’t sound like any of them provided meticulously detailed and wriggle proof programme formats to me.
64,and I think you will find most of the lib dems attacks so far have been on the tory party when you get a lib dem in the media.
that’s why the lib dems will be squeezed at the GE.
you joined the 16% club yet
70 - You would hope that was the case, but then when you look at things like their reporting of polling it just shows how lazy and uninformed they all seem to be.
Are Cameron and Brown thick as shit or something?! If either party had more supporters in the audience then people would be angry. They must be out of their minds.
It would be like Nick Clegg saying “I want more of our supporters to reflect how under-represented we are in parliament which doesn’t reflect our share of the vote.”
68 Oracle
Good point - I don’t know. You could at least ban any councillors, candidates and PPCs.
69. LS LOL I always said that Gordon’s vision was to reintroduce feudalism…
No audience is the answer, leave it to the viewes to decide.
viewers
Heres more coverage.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245677/TV-election-showdown-threat-leaders-demands—worst-clashes-football.html
In the photographs, Brown appears to have jaundice and Dave seems to have massive napalm burns to his head.
It was always the case that that EITHER Gordon Brown appears at the Chilcot enquiry or the debates, but not both.
Timetable will not allow it, plus IF something explosive is revealed at Chilcot, Brown would not want Clegg especially, hammering away with that point at the foreign policy debate.
Doubt if the debates will happen now.
If it is important that the audiences should be representative then it needs to be done properly. Lets see, we can differentiate on grounds of:
a. gender (M/F)
b. age (say 5 groups: 18-30, 31-40, 41-50, 51-60, 60+)
c. marital status - hot topic of the week (say 5 groups: single, co-hab, divorced, married, widowed)
d. children (yes/know)
e. religion (none + several varieties, lets cap it at ten)
f. sexuality (homo / hetero)
g. eductaion level (max qualificlation - non-grad / grad / post grad)
h. income (say 5 levels - unemployed, employed upto 25k, 25k-50k, 50k-100k, 100k+)
i. race - say 6 main groups
j. disbaility (say 4 types)
and finally:
k. voting intention (5 types C/L/LD/Other/DK)
This is very silly and unscientific of course, but to take one from every permutation above gives you 3,600,000 combinations. Now obviously some combinations are very unlikely (70 year old muslim divorced white lesbian postgraduate with children and disabilities earning more than 100k voting conservative) such that you could probably discount many permutations and if you simplified by just removing a few of the differentiating categories, you could get it down to a more manageable few thousand popular permutations plus allow for some scaling to ensure proprotionate representation from the more popular groups and cap the total at 80,000.
Now, has anybody booked Wembley Stadium for the debates yet?
(and I apologise to the more devoted followers of maths out there).
76,common sense.
72.Oracle, be interesting to see what else drips out with regard the negotiations. But they might just have to give up and accept that Brown will not take part unless he thinks he is getting some sort of controlling advantage. Just scrap the whole idea, and move on.
79. Ying Tong
Good point and of course if Brown calls a snap election and the campaign real begins then the TV companies have got to deal with the legal actions of the minority parties. Time is running out and opportunities are disappearing. I agree it is looking less likely by the day…..
78.
Shut up, welcher.
Ex World Bank chief economist Joseph Stiglitz is promoting his new book “Why we have to change capitalism”:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/7061058/Joseph-Stiglitz-Why-we-have-to-change-capitalism.html
He appears to be have been inspired by the thoughts of St Vince!
OT Senior Tory sources say theres no way they were encouraging or talking about an UUP/DUP pact for seats.
So, who spread the rumour, was it just speculation that got away with itself or was it..the DUP.
84. Goupillon: He appears to be have been inspired by the thoughts of St Vince!
Full of hindsight, is it?
84,the same st vince who was on straight talk wth andrew neil
Isn’t it weird that that Brown didn’t even have a date for the GE pencilled in a week or two ago, or certainly one he was sharing with other Senior Ministers like Straw and Harman. Now we have a Cabinet of careless tongues letting slip May 6th in various interviews, anyone would think they were nailing that date on Brown’s forehead instead of ours. Don’t they trust him?
86 Ouch
The latest slugger OT on the unionist situation in Ulster
http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/turbulence-in-the-wake-of-the-hatfield-talks/
85 Why would the DUP do it? Makes them look weak by offering to stand down in 2 seats. They could try to be causing ruction in the UUP but you’d have thought they’d have had just as a big a row as well. Would they be that crazy.
61 - TimT - could you possibly give the source of quotes and a link? It saves digging around to find out what lies behind the quotes.
It was Sherman Frederick by the way, in the Las Vegas Review. The man who recently conveniently forgot the anthrax attacks and Richard Reid in his desperation to claim that Bush was successful in stopping terrorism on US soil.
85. The Tories would have looked idiotic if they had agreed to such a carve-up - wasn’t the whole point of the pact with the UUP a) to move NI politics away from sectarianism (although it may well have the opposite effect) and b) to ensure that the Tories were the only truly national party, standing in every constituency in the UK?
90 “A spokesperson said: “The grass-roots of Unionism want a Conservative link and a better future. They want blood from the DUP not handshakes.” - That’s fairly clear I guess.
91. Because they knew it wasnt true? It may nto have been leaked by the DUP as party but by individuals
My assumption is that the TV companies would be desperate for the debates to happen in front of an audience - and one that can “participate” in the atmosphere of the event. No-one is going to watch Gordon Brown in the sterile atmosphere of a hobbled audience - or no audience at all. We’d rather watch PMQ’s. Hence why they would probably rather have no debates - and a great news story around the recriminations of “he wouldn’t” “no, HE wouldn’t!”
Mind you, after having spun and smeared and bullied to squash any contendors for the leadership election - and so get his coronation exactly as he wanted it - I can imagine Gordon wants to leave nothing to chance. He’s probably also demanded a bowl of Smarties backstage, with all the orange ones taken out…
If you haven’t seen the bomb/elephant detector edition of Newsnight - its a stunning.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00q9hx6/Newsnight_22_01_2010/
Conjuring trick - stunning.
93. When this whole talks story came out I thought the wild stories was nonsense but it kept coming…and it took too long for CCHQ to get it together. As I mentioned a few days back and again this morning, the Tories needed to sweep up the mess and get things in order.
They have belatedly.
95 Whether true or not a lot of voters will only hear and think DUP ofering to stand aside in seats so they are weak. What could they gain from giving that impression now when they desperately need to regain momentum.
re Sefton Central
Bill who?
http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2010/01/24/labour-party-chooses-bill-esterson-to-stand-for-sefton-central-seat-100252-25673763/
MM
He’s probably also demanded a bowl of Smarties backstage, with all the orange ones taken out…
I suspect he’ll want all the blue ones taken out too!
And Wavertree gets a hottie, but I suspect will have a LibDem MP.
“Luciana” FFS
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2010/01/24/liverpool-s-wavertree-constituency-labour-party-chooses-luciana-berger-for-general-election-100252-25673623/
101 I have visions of Gordon in Spinal Tap
Trapped in a giant pen1s perhaps
100.
I didn’t realise that the internal transportation of rare and endangered species (Labour councillors, in this case) was allowed under the law?
Will they be able to understand what he says given he probably talks ’suvvern’ like, kna wha I mean?
99. I think the story about Mr Hutchinson might kill momentum more than this.
Theres news of at least one other DUP member reported to be coming.
103 Freaky.
You’ve been at the cat-nip again haven’t you?
102,nice,it’s about time the labour party got some eye candy
102. Interesting they didn’t mention a single one of the ‘attributes’ that helped Luciana win the candidacy?
1-1 At Scunny!!
96 Marquee Mark
“with all the orange ones taken out”
Exactly the opposite. The Orange Order are campaigning for Labour in Scotland.
Yokel. The DUP seem to be self destructing. Are you revising your opinion of their chances now? In addition this will be the first General Election when Ulster is treated by at least one of the big parties nationally and so the national media as an integral part of the contest with major visits campiaging etc than as an irrelevant sideshow for decades. Will all the new attention be pleasing to the voters and will it affect their votes.
103 Well, Gordon is only happy when he has (political) midgets dancing to his tune….
The next phase of Brown’s scorched earth policy begins:
Civil servants could lose bonuses, says Alistair Darling
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/7066944/Civil-servants-could-lose-bonuses-says-Alistair-Darling.html
Now Darling makes all the obvious, popular and relatively painless cuts, leaving the painful and unpopular cuts to be made after the election.
Never thought they’d happen anyway. Brown ludicrous requirements seem to indicate that he’s trying to find a way out and save face.
109. yes come on Scunny!
111. From what I gather the Tories/UUP tried a bit of Brown-bashing at the Euro elections, and while that campaign was moderately successful, it still strikes me as a dubious tactic. How can you really vote ‘against’ Brown if there’s no option to vote ‘for’ him?
“Labour welcome change of date for elections from May to September.”
Are we sure this applies only to Afghanistan?
109. MM.
I remember when web forum software was so unsophisticated you couldn’t talk about Scunthorpe, and had to call it something else.
If that applied here, I think we’d call it Stimhorpe, or something like that
118 - Schumpthorpe, obviously.
Scunthorpe’s not too far from me and I’ve been there plenty of times watching us lose at Glanford Park, a truly terribly place to lose a game of football…
118 Schumpthorpe, surely
111. GE seats I wouldnt go beyond what what ive already said. Vulnerabilities are:
South Antrim (again)
Upper Bann (the story out down Portadown/Armagh way is not pretty)
Strangford - Im not sure Jim Wells could hold off a real powerful assault from a proper high profile UU candidate
North Belfast if they are not careful though I think the unionist block will hold together to keep it out of the Shinners hands as Dodds himself is coming through unscathed and has long history on the ground.
North Antrim is curious. Its Allisters heartland as well as the DUPs. If Paisley went in he’d hold it
Heres the problem with the UU’s who threaten 3 of those seats…theyve been sh1t for the last lot of years. If I had to pick one I’d go for South Antrim if the UUs find theselves a good candidate.
Assembly..all bets are off.
111. GE seats I wouldnt go beyond what what ive already said. Vulnerabilities are:
South Antrim (again)
Upper Bann (the story out down Portadown/Armagh way is not pretty)
Strangford - Im not sure Jim Wells could hold off a real powerful assault from a proper high profile UU candidate
North Belfast if they are not careful though I think the unionist block will hold together to keep it out of the Shinners hands as Dodds himself is coming through unscathed and has long history on the ground.
North Antrim is curious. Its Allisters heartland as well as the DUPs. If Paisley went in he’d hold it
Heres the problem with the UU’s who threaten 3 of those seats…theyve been sh1t for the last lot of years. If I had to pick one I’d go for South Antrim if the UUs find theselves a good candidate.
Assembly..all bets are off.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6999958.ece
Public sector face pay freeze says Darling.
from the article
“…..“It is not altogether clear to me why we pay very large salaries to people to do the same jobs as were being done 10 years ago for rather less,” he said……”
Hmmmmmmm, remind me, who has been in charge of the countries finances for the last ten years?
122 Is Collins standing? He’d look a strong suit for Strangford if he went for it now.
118 - Nearly got there, just failed at the last typing.
Another of shallow Daves finest hours that refuses to go away
A senior Tory source said: ‘David Cameron believed that securing General Sir Richard Dannatt in a new Conservative government would be a major coup but it caused havoc behind the scenes.
‘The defence team were furious and so were top brass.’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245691/Outcry-military-brass-forces-Cameron-delay-General-Sir-Richard-Dannatts-appointment-Tory-peer.html#ixzz0dY7HaxxN
124. Rumour has it its local former TV news anchor Mike Nesbitt but nothing confirmerd yet.
127 Wasn’t he in the Monkies
128. And lo and tumbleweed did…
Mark Senior @ 6 - I thought it was the “nasty party” that made comments like that?
128 That was Mike NesMITH. Cor dear old dear….
This sort of wrangle will be familiar with anyone who’s followed the run-up to the US debates - a lot of game-playing seems par for the course. Objectively there’s no reason why there needs to be an audience at all - the QT audience tends to contribute to a slightly chaotic atmosphere and we’ve all heard of cases where they seemed wildly biased to one side of the other. Let’s just hear what the leaders have to say for themselves without interruptions (and the moderators should shut up too).
Big (wet) doorstep canvass team out today in prosperous but non-intellectual area (Times/Telegraph rather than Guardian) - our support similar to the last canvass of the same people in 2005, though there are significant numbers who are telling canvassers they dislike all the national parties and are voting for me as an escape from having to choose between national evils; there were also more than usual who said they definitely won’t vote - “no offence but you’re all as bad as each other”.
126. I for one would like to see Richard Dannatt and Mike Jackson take leading roles in shaking up the whole MoD.
131 I always knew my knowledge on popular culture was bad - meh.
On thread, while it’s half-time in Lincolnshire…I think they’ll happen, somehow. If they didn’t, the media will be unhappy and they’ll be looking for someone to blame.
That’s unlikely to be Clegg, for whom their staging is most important and who would presumably not be as quarrelsome as Dave or Gordon over the details.
So it’s then down to Dave or Gordon to assume the mantle of Scupperer of the Debates. And whoever is given that unlovely position guarantees themselves some lousy headlines from a sulky press. Not a pleasant prospect, even if it’s hardly going to be game-changing.
I can see a situation in which Dave makes a great big show of acquiescing to Brown’s demands just to get them on, which makes him appear reasonable and Brown look like a shambling big bully loading the die in his favour, which’d make things even worse when Dave (and Clegg) run rings around him.
And if that sounds unfair, remember that Brown is extremely good at choosing the worst option for himself. In fact, isn’t there a pb.com law relating to just that?
“Introducing Motorway Man, the new swing voter.
Motorway Man is an aspirational character, maybe a sales rep or similar, who typically lives in a new housing estate on an “infill” former mining area near to a motorway. He used to vote Labour - or his parents did - but is now a Tory. The critical point is that these areas have been growing, population-wise, faster than the rest of the country.”
http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2010/01/introducing-motorway-man-the-new-swing-voter/
What a lovely way of describing people!
“prosperous but non-intellectual area (Times/Telegraph rather than Guardian)”
Sounds to me as if Brown is setting out his initial bargaining position. Being so unreasonable is probably about trying to extract as many concessions from the Tories. It’s a crazy position to start from though, and risks scuppering the debates altogether - not that this would be much of a loss. I’m of the opinion that the outcome of the next election is already decided anyway. Very few people have yet to make up their opinion on Gordon Brown.
136- From the same link:
“If you think this sounds tenuous, we ran a graphic in Friday’s FT showing the 21 marginal constituencies which lay along just three motorways; M6, M1 and M61. They include Morley & Outwood, which is being contested by Ed Balls, education secretary.”
123 ISTR that performance-related pay was allied to meeting targets (ultimately government-imposed) and also used to reduce pensionable pay.
Also, ISTR that a lot of the lower-paid roles in the Civil Service were privatised, which tended to make the CS as a whole that bit higher paid in comparison.
132. are voting for me as an escape from having to choose between national evils
Oh puhlease Nick keep the propaganda for your leaflets! You are Labour - you are the ‘national evil’ (collectively speaking that is).
136 - Ties in with the placement of Tory posters reported on PB.com
Yokel
are the tories now denying a deal with DUP ? Looking at Slugger there were a lot of angry people when the rumours slipped our; particularly the alleged reaction of some of the PPCs.
As you say UUP\Tories need a good shake up ; maybe they should send Shane Greer back home for a while with support !
132.”Objectively there’s no reason why there needs to be an audience at all - the QT audience tends to contribute to a slightly chaotic atmosphere and we’ve all heard of cases where they seemed wildly biased to one side of the other. Let’s just hear what the leaders have to say for themselves without interruptions (and the moderators should shut up too).”
That is interesting, why the sudden dislike of audience participation in these debates? Only politician that I am aware of who dislikes dealing with the ordinary public is Gordon Brown. I don’t remember Blair, Cameron or Clegg having the same problem from past experience.
144 - Read the press.
Cameron is objecting to audience questions.
I suppose this might be normal negotiating tactics, but isn’t the obvious solution to agree on “packing” the audience with a random sample of the adult population?
130. But at least he’s not a racist & genocidal fantasist like ‘Martin Day’ the Tory - and many other of the tragic weirdoes who post their racist filth here.
Just wondering. If debates do go ahead, do we also get the usual QT / Newsnight specials with each leader alone with Paxo in front of members of the public? I guess if they don’t go ahead we definitely get them, but if we get the leader debates does this mean the individual ones will be off?
142. “Ties in with the placement of Tory posters reported on PB.com”
Now if ever there was a sentence with a double meaning…
147 Frankly, I’d prefer to watch single leaders Paxo’d than them all in front of a mute audience.
Time is running very short. What’s the last day for a GE writ re 6th May?
And of course we have Easter sat in the middle of this too.
147. If Brown plays this right he can avoid making any sort of national TV appearance like that completely…..
146 What do they do in the US, S&S?
The audience always seems extremely well-behaved, certainly compared to what you’d expect in the UK. Do they threaten to shoot noisy people?
I do agree that post-Chilcot Gordon Brown must be looking for a way out of yet more potentially damaging television pictures. A fig-leaf would be good enough. His advisers must be worried of another Balls Up like him walking into the elephant trap set by Nick Clegg.
On a lighter note, should we start to guess at what troubles lay ahead for all the party leaders ? And speculate as to the likelihood of these risks coming to pass ?
I would divide them into two categories.
BANANA-SKINS
These would be the more common-or-garden gaffes. Miliband’s banana. Unfortunate juxtaposition of poster headline with politician. Slightly off-message remark [not quite parroting the party line on a policy, mild swearing]. Turning up late for a presser conference. Revelation that ‘members of the public’ are party apparachik.
GRENADES
The real ‘game-changers’. Punching a member of the public whilst not being in possession of an egg or the surname John Prescott.
Saying the ‘f-word’ on the mike. Admitting that the party has the wrong leader. Admitting that a ‘flagship’ policy may have to be junked if the economy tanks. Battle bus breaks down with warring cabinet ministers board, and consequent dreadful headlines.
Perhaps suggestions could be offered and ‘voted on’ for how likely they would be to happen ? Just a thought…
151. “Do they threaten to shoot noisy people?”
Not far off. There’s a stern pre-debate lecture on the need for absolute silence that goes on for about half-an-hour.
150 Perhaps he’ll hold a debate with school children? Or like that lovely Chairman Mao style one in London to thank Labour activists for working so hard during the campaign - when IIRC it was an election for councillors that weren’t in London…
Out of interest how many LibDems would be there?
142- Well, StJohn is going to be delighted because Peter Hain “seems to get it”
“Labour can no longer depend on the old basis of its appeal - a deep almost cultural attachment in mining communities,” the Welsh secretary told me in an interview last week.”
144 – An audience can make for great TV, even when things go disastrously wrong, that is why the TV stations would push for audiences imho. Personally I think however the story in the thread heading above is utter piffle.
As you mentioned earlier, Cameron has been honing his skills with his ‘Cameron Direct’ tours around the country, as, I hasten to add has Clegg. Neither has anything to fear from such an event, the only one of the three that has consistently shied away from anything less taxing than a cosy chat with Andrew Marr is Gordon Brown.
Few can honestly admit to thinking Brown is less than optimum on his feet.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/24/iraq-war-chilcot-gordon-brown
No doubt already posted, but the comments are racking up and worth a quick squiz..
145 ‘Read the press.’
What, the News of the World article? The tabloids aren’t exactly renowned for the accuracy of their reporting.
It’s on a par with your inability to settle a bet without provoking some kind of dispute
154 - The Chairman Mao one was was absolutely comical. The way he wittered on like it was just another normal local meeting full of concerned residents. The sort of thing he (and the Harperson / Mandy if I remember correctly), attends on a regular basis, always happy to take unscripted questions from the public.
totally off topic, but may be of interest to the artistic amongst you.
From ukraine has talent, sand art.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhf3OvRXKg&feature=player_embedded#
157 - From a couple of Cameron Direct’s I have watched on the interweb, it could be argued he has been “ambushed” with far from friendly questions on sensitive topical issues. It is also known that Labour have called out for supporters to turn out and ask him difficult questions. His replies have always been pretty good from the limited bits I have seen (I’m sure if he had even a small blow up the press who be on to it, as with the “VERE ARE UR PAPERS” comment).
160 Yup, that was the line up. I complained to the Beeb and got a totally absurd response along the lines of ‘well it was a major event and we did say it was a Labour meeting before the report’.
The fact they covered it live for I think over an hour was clearly a mere detail
BTW, I got a reply from the Editor of The One Show to my complaint about their PPB for Labour - quite contrite so good on him, mind you it was a shocker.
162 - I loved the ‘papers’ incident. Actually showed he has a sense of humour.
159 - Follow the link at 78, straggler Ed.
And leave the betting conversation to people who know what they are talking about.
79
mentioned this a few threads ago.
Brown would prefer not to do either so he will just claim diary clashes with the other one, stay in and do his hair and attend neither
Perhaps they could put a tub of lard in his place for what difference it would make.
164. “I loved the ‘papers’ incident. Actually showed he has a sense of humour.”
Hmmm. The fact that it was clearly a pre-prepared line, and that it plainly hadn’t even occurred to him that he was treading on dubious ground, was quite telling as well.
165 ‘And leave the betting conversation to people who know what they are talking about.’
Oh, the irony. Have you managed to find your chequebook?
*RE - Latest Betting Disagreement - Tim v Others*
This is what I just wrote to Tim about his so-called ‘bet’ regarding Tory Tax Proposals.
“….Tim, this isn’t a bet in any conventional sense of the word. I can’t adjudicate on such nonsense. You can pay out if you like if you think somebody has got close enough to what you think is the right answer, rather like a competition organiser who sets his own rules. But there is no ‘winner’ in the betting sense because it was never a wager on an event with a future outcome.”
I’m really not inclined to waste time on such tosh. I’m happy to rule on the outcome of bets, but I’m talking about proper bets, on a future event with a definite outcome. Tim’s challenge was more like a puzzle with ill defined terms and little likelihood of finding a clear and sensible solution. As the person who set the puzzle, Tim was the only one could know what a ‘correct’ answer might be - so he pays out only if somebody satisfies him that they have the solution. Given the obscure and unsatisfactory nature of the question, I should think it’s very unlikely anybody would be able to do that, but it’s up to Tim, and nobody can tell him if and when he should pay. He organised the ‘competition’. He decides who, if anybody, wins.
For future reference, can I make it clear that whilst I am very happy to rule on bets, I am not prepared to rule on competitions, quizes, challenges or teases. I’ve got better things to do.
It is perfectly obvious that Tim’s challenge was intended to point out what he thought were weaknesses and inconsistencies in a policy proposal. The offer of a financial inducement was nothing more than a wind-up, and a number of people were duly wound up. Some might think that fun, others childish. Either way it has little to do with the Site’s raison d’etre which is to provide a forum for the (intelligent!) discussion of betting on politics.
My interest is therefore zero.
The Labour Defence Volunteers were in a pickle. Before Captain Gordon Mainwaring could be court-marshalled by Colonel Chilcot’s war inquiry, Lance Corporal Straw dropped him in it by blubbing about how none of it had been his fault.
“I told them not to panic!” wailed Straw to Colonel Chilcot. “I had a plan that would have sorted out everything. We should have had a jolly old chinwag over a cup of tea with that nice Mr Hussein, who wasn’t dangerous at all.”
If that wasn’t bad enough, Private Hoon had revealed, under the lightest questioning from Colonel Chilcot, how the Captain had refused to let him have enough money for tanks.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/7062584/Dont-panic-Captain-Gordon-Mainwaring-faces-court-martial.html
167 - not really, since you have no evidence it was pre-prepared. Nor do the vast majority think it was dubious ground. Only Labourites and their assorted hangers-on think there was anything wrong with it.
“he was treading on dubious ground”
Only in the lefty overly PC world. ‘Allo ‘allo made years of TV out of those kind of gags. Personally never found that show very funny (or Cameron’s comment), but dubious or offensive, its hardly Roy Chubby Brown, Bernard Manning or are very own wannabe Timmy Thicket!
167 – What utter nonsense James, it was a quick jokey response that went down well with the audience.
The fuss kicked up by the usual suspects was derided across the board for what it was, cheap and without foundation.
161 WOW, that’s amazing. What a talent - shame the Turner Prizers are minnows in comparison.
I seem to recall posting on here when the debates were ‘announced’, and that detailed negotiations would begin ‘in the new year’ that agreement in principle was fine, but they would get bogged down in the details once they started talking about it - format, questioning, seated or standing, lectern or table, interplay between the candidates etc.
I am absolutely staggered that Brown wants the debate ‘fixed’ before it starts by insisting that he has twice as many supporters as Cameron. I suspect Cameron’s response about his poll ratings reflecting the audience makeup was in response to that.
My assumption would be that Cameron would not want floor questions if the audience is deliberately biased like that - quite right.
But if the audience were the sort he gets at ‘Cameron Direct’ I don’t think he would have any problem.
As I have also said before, Brown is going to try to shut this debate process down as much as he can, to neutralize Cameron’s perceived advantage in this arena. But deliberately skewing the auduence is ridiculous - but it sounds like a classic Brown move.
Both Cameron and Brown have form on debates - Cameron does it regularly with random audiences, and Brown avoids any public unscipted appearances at all like the plague.
132 NPMP.Where on earth did you get the idea that “intellectuals” tend to read the Guardian? What possible incentive would they have?Jobs pages, perhaps.
171. The Raven - As you’re so keen on ‘evidence’, I presume you must have some hard polling evidence to back up your claim that the “vast majority” did not think it was dubious ground. I’d be grateful if you’d provide a link.
No one has asked why this article appeared now. Who wants this story to appear and why is it in the News of the World - hardly the must-read political newspaper?
The “insider” claims to be confident that the debates will go ahead. The story reflects quite badly on both Labour and the Tories, but especially on Labour. The thrust of the article appears to be to put pressure on both to appear in front of a reasonably selected live audience. Who benefits most from that?
176 - Our elected representatives are allowed to have a sense of humour.
176 - Our elected representatives are allowed to have a sense of humour.
169 - Thanks Peter.
168 - EdP well timed post even by your idiotic standards.
167. “Hmmm. The fact that it was clearly a pre-prepared line, and that it plainly hadn’t even occurred to him that he was treading on dubious ground, was quite telling as well.”
Eh? That’s the default joke for the issue, no need to think on your feet, and it would only be considered dubious ground by the most po-faced twit.
If laughing at the Nazis is wrong I don’t want to be right.
157.Simon, it has taken Gordon Brown two years to even get the hang of PMQ’s, and he has never even contemplated going near a proper debate in his own party in front of a partisan audience. The way he behaved at Treasury questions all those years meant he was totally unprepared for the bear pit of PMQ’s. The way he arranged his own coranation as Labour leader with a tour among the faithful, again has left him totally unprepared for any kind of leadership debate or non Labour arranged audience participation.
His total reluctance to even engage with the public off the cuff has left him totally unprepared for the rigours of being the front man in a GE campaign. Can you see him hopping on a soap box and engaging with the crowd in a town centre while the opposition followed him heckling? It’s utterly incredible to see us with a politician in 2010 who is less suited or experienced to be a party leader, never mind a PM in this modern age of 24 hour media.
We are left with the spectacle of him yet again doing everything in his power to avoid the normal cut and thrust of robust campaigning and debate.
172. Oracle, since we heard a lot from you the other day on the subject of tedium, do you think you could give this “Timmy Thicket” drivel a rest, especially now that PtP has delivered his ruling?
173. “The fuss kicked up by the usual suspects was derided across the board for what it was, cheap and without foundation.”
The usual suspects = offended Germans? By the way, it was a member of the audience who first took Cameron to task on the matter, and you could see the horror in his eyes when he realised he was going to have to semi-apologise.
167, ARGH! Pre-prepared is a tautology, a Brownism and an unnecessary bastardisation of the perfectly good word ‘prepared’.
Oh, and it was mildly amusing. Ze lefties haff no sense ov humour.
159 - Follow the link at 78, straggler Ed.
And leave the betting conversation to people who know what they are talking about.
by tim January 24th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
seems a shame that peter has decided that you are not even capable of framing a bet correctly. Will you now be leaving the betting to people who know what they are talking about? Any more competitions with dubious rules you would like to publish as framing a bet correctly is obviously beyond you?
185 RACIST - your comment offends people of German extraction and I’m outraged on their behalf.
187, oh be quiet, Mr. Malik.
Oh noes! That’ll set the timmy alarm off!
185. “Ze lefties haff no sense ov humour.”
Whereas Tories are legendarily completely relaxed about comments made about their leaders’ social and educational background.
188 I’d love to know what he’s been watching from his massage chair
Arsenal = LOL
Arsenal = Labour
Man City on for treble?
189, vonce again, Von Kelly, you haff shown your own misjudgement. The Etonian stuff is judging someone by their background, over which they have no control. Like racism. Only lefties lurrrve class war. Even the ones (and there are many) who went to fee paying schools.
See how I slap you with the enormo-haddock of Truth!
183 – Christina, not a lot I can argue with there, absolutely astonishing that a party leader so lacking in basic middle management speaking skills should become erm ‘elected’..!
187. Should that post be signed
Emport Von Rothenburg ob der Tauber?
192. So racial stereotypes = hilarity, complaining about use of racial stereotypes = no sense of humour.
Whereas class stereotypes = pathetic, complaining about use of class stereotypes = the path to righteousness.
OK, I’m getting the hang of it now. It’s like Marxism, if it appears to contradict itself it’s only because you don’t understand…
28/44
Can we have 88 (poster ‘88′ not no 88 post here, see last night) on to serve the teas?
28: reading = fa cup final???
I predicted that because Gordon is a f*cking coward, he would seek to pull out on a technicality.
Looks like the technicality has been found.
Still, it’s hardly tipster-of-the-year material. Nobody ever got rich betting on Brown’s bravery…
194, jsfl January 24th, 2010 at 5:48 pm
A, Rothenburg ob der Tauber, beautiful place, if you ever get the chance to visit do it.
F1: (sorry about making such frequent observations, but the wait for the testing is irking me).
Alonso remains favourite, but the prices of Schumacher, Vettel, Massa and Rosberg have all moved downward as well. Looks like the whole market is tightening.
195 – James, again you are talking your usual partisan bollox, for the record, my wife is German and she did find it funny.
Want to argue with her.? she’s 6′2″
12 Mr Dancer - shurely not, Ms Harperson said that the reason she sent her child to a school 12 miles away was because ‘there wasn’t a Labour government then’.
See, educational choices are only hypocritical when the Tories are in power…
195. I’m getting the hang of it now. It’s like Marxism, if it appears to contradict itself it’s only because you don’t understand…
It’s amazing what you can learn from the left isn’t it?
195
…or scottish nationalism
it was obvious the debates were never going to happen - although gordon could have got sarah to do his bit.
Labour = part of the team playing man city today
195, Nazis aren’t a race. And if you consider the two identical in moral terms you should be outraged that, whereas Cameron has said ‘papers, please’ once, Labour is constantly banging on about class warfare.
198. Really, I just picked it out of a list because it sounded like the German equivalent of Tunbridge Wells!
I’ll hold that in mind if we ever get back to Germany…
Been out all afternoon and just catching up. Apologies if posted upthread but if Brown doesn’t turn up, couldn’t they just use a tub of lard just like when Roy Hattersley failed to turn up on HIGNFY.
Mind you, the tub of lard won!
–snip from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_I_Got_News_for_You
When Roy Hattersley failed to appear for the 4 June 1993 episode — it was the third time he had cancelled at the last minute — he was replaced with a tub of lard (credited as “The Rt. Hon. Tub of Lard MP”), as it was “imbued with much the same qualities and liable to give a similar performance”. The Tub of Lard was on Merton’s team, which went on to win, supposedly despite attempts by Deayton to tip the balance in Ian’s favour, including replacing all of Merton’s ‘Missing Words’ with extracts from foreign language tabloids, and a tabloid completely blanked out
Thanks to the bots of PBC, I have learned that the Nazis weren’t German.
THANKS BOTS.
200, must confess some jealousy. As a youth I found most accents obnoxious, save German. It’s still amongst my favourites. Ich will eine Lieblingsfraulein!
(Apparently fraulein is jetz verboten weil it’s considered a bit un-pc. Frau is now used all the time. If I ever meet a foxy German lady, I’m definitely going to go with Fraulein).
@James Kelly:
Hush now. You sound like a spoon.
208
some were; some weren’t.
207 Spitting Images dummy of Hattersley still makes me wince - it was so spot on and repelling.
Where are shows like this now? Lefty humour only applies during Tory rule, perchance?
203. “…or scottish nationalism”
And ‘Scotland should be an independent country’ is a contradictory statement how exactly?
(Once again, I’d like to express my incandescent rage at this point at the determination of certain posters to hi-jack every thread and turn it into a discussion about Scotland. But if they insist, what can the rest of us do.)
212, I’d not be surprised if it made a comeback 17 days after Cameron becomes PM, if he should. Headcases (on ITV, CGI with some of the Spitting Image team behind it) was not impressive.
210. RESULT - the Coxall nerve duly hit.
@215:
Yes, I have a real live nerve when cybernits try to point out that the Nazis weren’t German.
OH HOW IT UPSETS ME.
216. “Yes, I have a real live nerve when cybernits try to point out that the Nazis weren’t German.”
Your close reading skills are failing you again, old chum. It was Morris Dancer, not me, that said that - I’m guessing not a Nit, judging by his name.
“James Kelly”, just chill. Think about something else.
I know you are interested in AGW so here are some links for you
“UN wrongly linked global warming to natural disasters”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7000063.ece
“UN climate panel blunders again over Himalayan glaciers”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6999975.ece
“Sloppy science is seeping into the climate watchdog”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6999815.ece
and just so you’re not caught out again
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_E._Trenberth
Enjoy!
Dale has more on debate issues,
“The leaders’ TV debates are already running into trouble in two ways. the TV schedulers are worried about a clash with Champions’ League games, which are being played everu Tuesday and Wesnesday in April.”
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2010/01/tv-debates-hit-problems.html
214. MD
Indeed well when Labour get kicked out most of the puppets will be available for engagements again…..
@217:
Run it past me how doing a Nazi impression is a racial stereotype?
220 I’m trying to recall the Labour ones and having real trouble - Hatters, Kinnock and tumbleweed.
FA Cup Draw:
Southampton v Portsmouth
Reading v West Bromwich Albion
Fulham v Notts County or Wigan Athletic
Chelsea v Cardiff City
Bolton Wanderers v Tottenham Hotspur or Leeds United
Derby County v Birmingham City
Manchester City v Stoke City
Wolverhampton Wanderers or Crystal Palace v Aston Villa
218. Constan - fair enough-ski, in future I’ll infuse all my posts with the words ‘Timmy’, ‘thicket’ and ‘welcher’ - that’s the preferred CyberTory/AGW-obsessive form of ‘chillaxing’, right?
224 or we can just call you c… ?
221 Ze woters in Stoke/Burnley/Dagenham vil wote…
@222:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9bGKgaH5Hw
206 - jsfl - a must see is the Medival Crime museum. Truly chilling.
http://www.rothenburg.de/index.php?PHPSESSID=b95d22077a59545db39d450db78aa1b0&get=121
http://www.kriminalmuseum.rothenburg.de/Englisch/engframe.htm
Have a look at the instruments of torture, for example a chair to torture bakers whose loaves were to small
221. “Run it past me how doing a Nazi impression is a racial stereotype?”
You’re a funny man, Martin.
Damn it! We get Arsenal and now Man City. Southampton v Pompey looks like very tasty tie and if it becomes Wolves v Villa then another derby to enjoy.
PBC Herd, 7th May 2010:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReIAna459sg
228. Can we send Brown their?
224 - You’ll have noticed from last nights post by a “Harold Wilson” that the bottom set of Tory posters on here are now basically just a reflex action attacking anyone who isn’t a follower of Dave.
225. “or we can just call you c… ?”
Only if you’re posting from Scave-ithorpe.
230 their = there doh!
228 - “a chair to torture bakers whose loaves were to small”
Doh..!
227 OMG - that’s cosmic - Mandy as a snake was mesmerizing!
226 Where restauaraunts serve ‘hors d’oeuvres’ that must be obeyed without question!!
(Ripping off ‘Fawlty Towers’-'The Germans’ if anyone did not guess!) 
235 Now,if we could substitute bakers for chavs,I’d be in favour!
Kelly again
Sorry to copy almost all of what Craig Murray has to say but it seems important. Last sentence is the one that stands above all else.
“The punishment of the BBC for failing to unquestioningly echo Blair lies went much further. The Chairman and Director General were forced out. All because the BBC said there may have been no WMD, when there were not.
It is almost incredible even now to state what New Labour have done. God know what future historians will make of it.
The BBC was traumatised, and went through an acceleration of cultural change that prized “managers” over journalists, and stopped criticising government. A foundation stone of democracy had been blasted away by Tony Blair.
Kelly’s death was extremely convenient for Blair, Cheney and a myriad of other ultra ruthless people. It paved the way for war. We should not forget how very crucial the WMD issue was in convincing enough reluctant New Labour MPs to go along. Without the UK there would have been no coalition - most of the other Europeans would have quickly dropped out too. It is by no means clear that, despite Cheney’s bluster, the Americans would have invaded Iraq alone.
So Kelly was the first man killed in the Iraq war. Hundreds of thousands of people died in Iraq after Kelly. Arms manufacturers, mercenary companies and the security industry made tens of billions in profit. That’s a powerful motive to remove an obstacle. The Western oil companies are getting back into Iraq.
We will never know if Kelly would have gone on to repeat his - perfectly correct - doubts about Iraqi WMD, or if he would have shut up, as ordered by Tony Blair through the MOD. I do know, as many doctors have attested, it is extremely unlikely to bleed to death by cutting a wrist. I do know that the paramedics who attended said there was very little blood at the scene. I do know that the painkillers he took were a tiny proportion of a fatal dose and were not an anticoagulant.
I do know that a chemical weapons expert like Dr Kelly would know better ways to kill himself.”
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/01/david_kellys_mu.html
132
NPMP
I am truly amazed by your little piece on canvassing. Its the most interesting reasoning that I have ever heard as to why people are going to vote for a candidate.
http://tinyurl.com/ykw4dde: Conservative/Labour/Liberal Coalitionists returning from Germany.
239 - Kelly’s death was extremely convenient for Blair, Cheney and a myriad of other ultra ruthless people. It paved the way for war…..So Kelly was the first man killed in the Iraq war. Hundreds of thousands of people died in Iraq after Kelly.
Iraq War begins March 2003.
David Kellys death July 2003.
Can you see a slight hole in Craig Murrays timeline?
“The Tories Are Making a Mistake Avoiding Negative Campaigning”
http://blogs.wsj.com/iainmartin/2010/01/24/the-tories-are-making-a-mistake-avoiding-negative-campaigning/
240 You mean:
“Big (wet) doorstep canvass team out today in prosperous but non-intellectual area (Times/Telegraph rather than Guardian)”
I’m sure their readers will be delighted to know that only ‘intellectuals’ read the Gruaniad.
192. MD , what is wrong in judging someone by their background, Tories and Etonians do it all the time with other groups. Your haddock is obviously of the farmed variety.
203. Alanbrooke, back to your playpen, moron.
243 “Here’s a simple formula the Tories could try, but probably won’t. Put Cameron’s face on positive posters with simple, optimistic, believable messages. And put Gordon Brown’s face on negative posters with attack lines.”
244
Plato
I was actually referring to
” though there are significant numbers who are telling canvassers they dislike all the national parties and are voting for me as an escape from having to choose between national evils”
232 tim, given your growing obsession with classifying people by skin colour I wouldn’t cloud the issue by trying to build alliances with the James Kelly anti-racism crusade. You’ll probably just confuse yourself and you’ll certainly confuse him.
Result over the cheating accusation btw. It turns out you were probably cheating, just not over a bet. Complete moral vindication or what?
247 - Even more radically, put Camerons real face on a poster.
225. Don’t ave it , that is out of order, you know you would lov eto support the SNP , sooner you mov eto God’s country and join us the better. Should be easy enough to get someone to tow your caravan up here.
245 I don’t, I married someone who had very few similarities of upbring other than being born geographically near.
Do pack it in - those who plan to vote Tory aren’t TORIES - and even if they were, so what?
Replace Tory with SNP/PC for the same effect.
The guy standing in for ‘tim’ on the Sunday shift appears to be an angry 5 year old.
247 Okidoki
247 - Put Camerons face on posters with a positive message saying
“Britain is Broken - I’m off now I have an ambulance to chase”
The guy standing in for ‘tim’ on the Sunday shift is an angry 5 year old.
252. “Do pack it in - those who plan to vote Tory aren’t TORIES - and even if they were, so what?”
Actually, that was one thing that intrigued me the other day - if being a TORY is no big deal and nothing to be ashamed of, why be quite so touchy over the label?
233
243 Me - My guess is that the negative campaigning will happen closer to the election. The idea now seems to be to kill off ‘The Tories have no policies’ (wrongly, in my view - I don’t believe that anyone who says this is actually interested in whether they have policies or not, but that is by the by).
Negative campaigning needs a plausible target, and wears quickly. Better let Labour show (or refuse to show) a bit more of what they would do, and then go for it.
Rubbish thread this evening - lots of infantile stuff. And more canvassing b*ll from NP.
253 Indeed - you airhead!!!!!!!!
256 - It read better the first time
251
I OWN scotland! At least my taxes pay for it!
252. facts are facts, just because you do not like them does not mean I cannot mention them. The Tories on here are quick to pick fault with anyone that does not support them , you included. Easy to give it out but not so easy when you get some back.
260 ‘Rubbish thread this evening - lots of infantile stuff’
yes tim and james kelly - stop it you are spoiling the thread
243. I think Martin has been infected by something. His view of some things recently has been utterly perverse
The accompanying slogan - “Get out and vote or they get back in” - was quite misleading……..
…..The spindoctor Campbell is so proud of the poster that he has it on his wall and was photographed next to it for Saturday’s edition of the Times.
Not only was it misleading it was also a complete failure. Labour’s vote fell by 2.8 million (20-25%) in 2001
It is a reminder of how skilled New Labour was at negative campaigning and sloganeering.
Yeah right it really got the Labour vote motivated didn’t it?
260. Runnynose, swiutch off your humour bypass, there is no-one more infantile than you on here.
257 In the same way that someone who decides to vote tactically for the SNP but is a Lib Dem at heart to keep another party out.
Being labelled as a stalwart of a particular party when in fact it isn’t an ideoligical decision is annoying, crude and false.
248 - MTF -have I missed something, is NPMP now standing as an independant ?
265. I do sympathise, Ave It - it’s getting to the point where 2% of the posters on this thread are not Tories. Simply far too high.
263. Ave It , You are not paying enough then , our infrastructure is poor due to us paying for all those upgrades down south. You boys are bleeding us dry.
I had hoped to post the following on the last thread before going out to lunch but didnt manage:
A couple of thoughts.
The Scottish subset in the ComRes poll yet again has the Scottish Tories at 20% and the SNP at only 21%. Are we seeing further evidence of voters who might vote SNP for Holyrood looking to vote Tory for Westminster, i.e. which party best placed to inflict damage on Scottish Labour.
Yet another set of polls which are bad news for the LibDems. The ComRes subset if replicated at the GE in Scotland would see the Tories take its 2 top LibDem targets.
On this thread, Brown will struggle to pull out and look anything other than “frit” to quote Scotland’s favourite former occupant of No 10
I agree that Nick Cleeg should do well in the debates as should David Cameron. On the question of audience, I would opt for 1/4 from each of the 3 main parties and 1/4 of undecided voters. As with QT they should be able to question all 3 leaders spontaneously.
From the FT:
Mandarins to attack failures of government
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1c28ffe4-0915-11df-ba88-00144feabdc0.html
268. “Being labelled as a stalwart of a particular party when in fact it isn’t an ideoligical decision is annoying, crude and false.”
And also strikingly touchy for someone who regularly goes out of their way to lecture others on the need to ‘lighten up a bit’. If you’re so insistent that you’re not a Tory (in spite of nailing your colours pretty firmly to that mast for the GE), I take it would be all right to describe you as right-of-centre? In spite of your Blair-voting background (or perhaps because of it), I’m struggling to think of many views you’ve expressed here that could reasonably be described as centre-left.
263 “I OWN scotland! At least my taxes pay for it!”
A fool and his money….
272. “The Scottish subset in the ComRes poll yet again has the Scottish Tories at 20% and the SNP at only 21%. Are we seeing further evidence of voters who might vote SNP for Holyrood looking to vote Tory for Westminster, i.e. which party best placed to inflict damage on Scottish Labour.”
Further evidence? Easterross, I believe it was only a week ago that I and Ex-pat had to point out to you that your claim that the Scottish Tories had been regularly polling 18-22% was utterly bogus. 20% is actually a bit on the high side by recent standards.
271 Are welfare benefits taxed?
I never knew that.
275 they’re all here now - chief spanner is back!
oi 88 are you SNP or are you simply FCP (work it out)
On the debates you could do three different formats I would have thought. BBC can run a QT style debate, Sky could do an expert panel questioning session and ITV could do a completely interactive show with the top themes selected by an audience poll on the night. For the audience, restrict 15% of the audience to party members split equally between the parties of each participant and the rest of the audience are not allowed to be party members and in fact should be undecideds…
Plato its ok - i am sending this round to James Kelly - stopping off at wigan pier for tim…
http://alishabanks.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/scary-cat-32.jpg
For those teachers out there, this is the back page of the current issue of the TES magazine.
http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6033990
The 10 point plan to share pre-school political thought.
276 James only if you read only polls which show the SNP leading Labour in Scotland like Mori. Almos every ICM, YouGove etc subset for 2 years has shown the Scots Tories in the 18-22 range and some even showing us ahead of either Labour or the SNP. However when the SNP seem to be high we tend to be lower and vice versa.
272.”The Scottish subset in the ComRes poll yet again has the Scottish Tories at 20% and the SNP at only 21%. Are we seeing further evidence of voters who might vote SNP for Holyrood looking to vote Tory for Westminster, i.e. which party best placed to inflict damage on Scottish Labour.”
I really think that question will the great unknown this time around. How many voters saw a tactical vote for the SNP in 2007 as an effective way to use their anti Labour vote? There is no doubt that the SNP benefited from being seen as the obvious vehicle to get rid of the Lab/Libdem governing coalition. How will the totally different political landscape at Westminster effect the voting pattern, turnout and overall party vote share in a Westminster GE?
And other factor will also be the ballot paper. Alex Salmond’s name was used to great effect in 2007 Scottish elections, but I doubt the SNP can realistically try that tactic again?
Will email you later with a couple of queries.
282. “Almost every ICM, YouGove etc subset for 2 years has shown the Scots Tories in the 18-22 range”
Easterross, I’m sorry, but you’re quite clearly making this up as you go on. ICM do not even produce Scottish subsets.
272 Mighty predictions for Scotland based on a subsample of a massive total of 52 Scottish voters .
RE 169 Well said PTP
Are the debates looking less likely?
No, because they were so unlikely to happen in the first place, that the odds were already 1000’s/1 against.
Brown is many things, suicidal clearly being one of them. However exposing himself to national humiliation on prime time TV, is going a little too far even by Browns highly dubious standards.
Sorry I take that ALL back. There is a chance, however slim that Brown is now so seriously self-deluded if not terminally insane, that he actually thinks he has a friend in the world, that does not go by the name of TIM.
There must be a GE starting in a few weeks. Considering the amount of time they have had to actually do something like this (how long have we been in Stan and the government have treated the personnel appallingly).
I’m afraid this is another cynical ploy to garner votes by a totally discredited government and PM who will stoop at nothing to protect themselves from the coming onslaught. This has absolutely nothing to do with these brave service people and absolutely everything to do with the survival of Brown and his cohorts. They totally disgust me.
“Under government plans announced over the weekend all veterans, also including those who fought in Northern Ireland, the Falklands, Iraq and Afghanistan, will be allowed to jump to the top of the waiting list. Mike O’Brien, the health minister, said that meetings with those wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan convinced him veterans needed special treatment. Mr O’Brien said he had ordered the fast-tracking of the scheme to begin now.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7067109/World-War-veterans-to-be-given-priority-healthcare.html
177 - James, you wanted a poll. Have you found anyone here who agrees with you?
More MP’s rumoured to be standing down:
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2010/01/mps-with-defeat-in-their-eyes.html
How long will it take to get labour candidates in place. Could it be this is the last clearing of the decks before the announcement of the GE?
276. Will Salmond be finished if the Scottish Tories out-poll the SNP?
286.
Mike, can you now please ask tim to desist from framing challenges as bets when it is clear he has no intention of paying out?
I think the composition of the audience should be based on a mixture of age, gender and political allegiance with an equal number for each party plus a group of undecided voters. It will be difficult to retain a meaningful debate if the audience is too partisan and it will be essential for the chairperson to be fair and even handed. However, how much truth is there in the News of The World story, I doubt its veracity and provenance.
295 - I make bets on here and pay out when I lose and collect when I win.
274 I made an observation.
I also observe that some posters are keen to label those who intend to vote Tory as Tories, when they aren’t - if you can’t accept a 3x Labour voter as someone who ISN’T a Tory
And frankly, what’s wrong with being a Tory? This feels like some weird thinking that everyone who disagrees with their ideology is a wing-nut.
I see that ‘88′ has gone now. Good. I can go out now knowing i have saved the site…
297.
Shut up, welcher.
299 Mind and take your hat Claypole.
297 And your credibility on such terms is now zero.
tim = Gordon Brown and I claim my 5 000 000 000 000 000 000 000
A British soldier has died following an explosion in southern Afghanistan, the Ministry of Defence has said.
The soldier, from 3rd Battalion The Rifles, was killed while on foot patrol south of Sangin district centre, in Helmand province, on Sunday morning.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8477965.stm
298. Plato
Its just part of Labour’s neurotic / paranoid bunker mentality (which first appeared back in the early 80’s IMO). Anyone who disagrees with them must be an enemy collaborator (i.e. a Tory).
If they lose the GE it will get even worse just wait. The hysteria from the Labour camp over the first few months after a severe Labour election defeat will be something to behold.
On a lighter note.
No 10 are not happy with Bob Aintworthas1t and neither are the bookies by the looks of it.
Labour = sub 200
Gaffe-prone Ainsworth infuriates Downing Street by letting slip date of Election (it’s May 6)
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245703/Date-general-election-released-Bob-Ainsworth.html#ixzz0dWj2pXjq
LOL, just been looking at some of the archives and around the 2005 election its actually quite amusing how many people were saying that Labour needed to ditch Blair for Brown! Although to this day I think Brown is better than Blair, its still funny considering how most on here moan that he has no right to be Prime Minister.
295 - I make bets on here and pay out when I lose and collect when I win.
by tim January 24th, 2010 at 7:16 pm
Tim, large numbers of your bets are made in the full knowledge that no one will take you up on them because they are competitions or so badly framed that they are meaningless. You have done this for some time, you have been exposed by the arbiter for the site, suck it up.
300/302 - Perhaps best that you stop cluttering up the site with posts on a subject you know nothing about, as you’ve been politely asked to do.
(No offence intended):
With Luciana Berger being selected for Labour in Liverpool Wavertree, Liverpool could have 2 female Jewish MPs at the next election.
308, tim, care to point out what the difference between a competition and a bet is. Not for my sake you understand, more for yours. It may save you further embarrassment in future.
306 I could never understand the frothing from Labour that Tony was *bad* for them.
If Gordon’s couped had failed, the Tories would have a harder fight on their hands.
Sure Blair is Mr Iraq, but he’d have had years of rebuttal time and *appealing* other stuff to counter it.
Labour made a massive mistake IMO, dump a natural vote winner for a natural vote loser.
306. Most of those people were deluded lefties like Roger. They didn’t realise how good they has got it with Blair - I guess its the nature of politics to always think the grass is greener elsewhere?
263: runnymede @ 18:41
“Rubbish thread this evening - lots of infantile stuff.”
Alas that is true of all too many threads lately. Take out the spats involving Tim and James Kelly and there wouldn’t be much remaining.
Presumably OGH needs a busy site to attract advertisers and so is content with the situation. It is probably self-defeating in the long run though; look at how Hazel Tree and company killed off discussion on the Telegraph’s Political Blogs. It will be a pity of PB.com goes the same way.
310 - Not rocket science don.
a bet An agreement usually between two parties that the one who has made an incorrect prediction about an uncertain outcome will forfeit something stipulated to the other; a wager.
a comptetition The act of competing
Hazel Tree = Kevin Maguire
284 I have looked at the various Scotland only polls and since July 2008 only 2 polls have shown the Scottish Tories below 18%, one at 17% and one at 11%,with 2 at 18%, 1 at 19%, 5 at 20% and 1 at 21%. The 1 at 21% was the poll commissioned for the SNP!
246/269.
The fact is that up to now the tory PR attack on Gordo and new Labour has been anodyne and has so far fallen flat.
There has not been one attack line that resounds or is memorable, (so far) and the Tory faithful will need something to get their teeth into.
The latest poster, famous now for the negative view of it conjured successfully by Labour, has proved a bit of a joke. The CGHQ bod’s need to get their finger’s out.
“308.300/302 - Perhaps best that you stop cluttering up the site with posts on a subject you know nothing about, as you’ve been politely asked to do.
by tim January 24th, 2010 at 7:27 pm
Golly, tim wants a Chairman Mao site where only those with ‘approved’ views by him are allowed.
tim = Mr Patchuri and I claim my 5 000 000 000 000 000 000 carbon credits.
313. Hurst. Part of the problem is that the recession has killed the debate (Yes it Gordon fault!
).
All the parties have to talk about is what they are going to cut really apart from tweaks at the extremities. If the parties don’t have much to say and there is little clear water what is their to talk about?
I mean even the polls haven’t done anything much for nearly 4 months………
There shoud be no audience anyway.
No audience will make it less like “X-factor” or “PMQs” by eliminating all the noisy baggage in the background.
No security problems, cheaper to set up, more likely to be a permanent fixture in the future.
tim, that’s excellent, glad to see you have taken the trouble to learn your lesson after making your self look such a complete chump.
Hopefully you won’t repeat your mistake in the same way that you repeat so many of your “amusing” posts.
288 Mark week in and week out you bore us with your predictions for LibDem supremacy at the GE based on the results of by-elections in Dunny-on-the-Wold South type parish council seats, so don’t preach.
295, 297 Actually I seem to remember that the settlement of said bet was for the charity of the winners choice. I thought that was a very good way for this to be done and I was suitably impressed (at the time).
Sad really that the goal posts moved and the said charity lost out on what would have been a very valuable contribution to their funds but there you go, thats the Labour way. Perhaps the £50 contribution could still go to the ‘Help for Heroes’ fund and if so I am sure it would be well received.
Please also refer to my post at 291 where the Government in their dying days now offer help to veterans but in 2008 and before?.
Published: 11:53AM BST 14 Oct 2008
“The Army Benevolent Fund said that the ongoing campaigns and the Government’s failure to adequately care for gravely injured veterans returning home means its coffers are severely depleted.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/3195187/Soldiers-wounded-in-Afghanistan-may-be-denied-charity-help-due-to-cash-crisis.html
316 You haven’t looked very hard then , Populus January 2010 for Times Scottish subsample Conservatives 15%
James Kelly
Do you accept that not all, and very possibly not a majority of Labour voters are actually socialists?
If so, then surely it is perfectly acceptable to consider that a person who has decided to vote this time for The Conservative Party is not a Baby Eating Manic with an rabid inclination to spread poor people on his morning cornflakes?
BTW. I have voted Conservative all of my life. I have never voted for The Tory Party. There is no such thing as Toryism, except in the minds of brain washed socialists. However there is such a thing as conservatism, and there is such a thing as socialism. The former makes, and represents common-sense, the later represents devout elitist evil, and more so by the hour.
Please note I vote for conservatism, not for the fascist socialist nonsense The Conservative Party has a habit of allowing its mates in the establishment to force kicking and screaming on to us all.
I know what socialism is, it is clear that many of those that vote for a socialist party have little or absolutely no idea what socialism is. Otherwise only Karl Marx, and the likes of TIM would vote for it. Perhaps you would like to do us and yourself a favour, and actually find out what conservatism is, as it is clear you have no idea whatsoever. When you have done so ,please be so kind as to tell David Cameron ASAP.
Oh and BTW. Terms such as centre left or centre right, and on and on, are as meaningless as far left or far right. They all mean different things to different people. This is purely because the establishment has deliberately confused the public into divisive submission. It never has been a matter of left or right, it has only ever been a matter of right or wrong, good or evil, lies or truth, and more especially and ultimately hopeless slavery or degrees of freedom.
313. Hurst - things aren’t that bad. There have been some good discussions of late. But I think it’s worth noting when the trolling quotient gets too high.
Ouch again
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/goldlist/2010/01/the-labour-and-lib-dem-mps-in-tory-target-seats-who-will-avoid-the-electorates-verdict-at-the-genera.html
Gordon in 1988:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxH6BnCiCsQ&feature=rec-LGOUT-exp_fresh+div-1r-1-HM#t=2m24s&
324 Mr Smart Arse if you read my post you would see I quoted full Scottish polls as it happens not subsamples.
Why not quote all the subsamples for the past 12 months since I cannot fathom out how to locate them on the site.
329. 324. I think we’ll have to wait for the next all-Scotland poll to sort this tiff out.
329 You specifically quoted the Comres subsample in your original post .
330
sometime around 6th May would be better
I’m probably being cynical but I get the feeling some of these announcements have been saved up specifically to be released in the run up to the GE.
‘Sarah’s Law’ to be introduced to help parents check for paedophiles
Michele Elliott, founder of the children’s charity Kidscape, welcomed the move, but questioned the timing of the announcement. “It is interesting that they have chosen to do this now with an election around the corner. Whatever the motivation of the politicians, it is important that parents will now be able to get access to this information,” she said.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7000688.ece
The General Danatt affair gave us pause for thought on David Camerons political maturiy, this is more worrying.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8477976.stm
SDLP demand meeting with Tories over unionist talks
David Cameron
The SDLP said David Cameron’s party must include nationalists in talks
The SDLP has demanded a meeting with the Conservatives over talks they held in England with the two main unionist parties, the DUP and UUP.
The SDLP’s deputy leader has written to David Cameron demanding to discuss what he described as the “naked, sectarian play of the orange card”.
In the letter, Dr Alasdair McDonnell said he was deeply concerned by “Tory intervention” during a sensitive period of political negotiations.
He said the talks had created mistrust.
Dr McDonnell accused Mr Cameron of exploiting the crisis at Stormont and said political stability in Northern Ireland would not be achieved by “secret Tory/unionist back room deals in the face of a possible hung parliament after the Westminster elections”.
“No one is buying the Tory line that this secret, all-unionist meeting was an attempt to overcome political instabilities,” he said.
“If this was the genuine motivation then why haven’t the Tories met with the nationalist parties which represent half of the population living here?”
171 *RE - Latest Betting Disagreement - Tim v Others* by Peter the Punter.
Is PtP actually Sir John Chilcott or Lord Hutton in another guise?
328. Crikey. That was almost exactly a month after I was born. Hope that makes you all feel old.
vomitastic,fortunately she is not a prop.
http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_headline=if-only-sarah-had-wed-tony&method=full&objectid=21990717&siteid=93463-name_page.html
295. tim, you framed the “bet”, and you framed it in a deliberately incoherent way, because, as PtP says, it was meant merely as an exercise in winding up Tories (and making them sweat to answer your absurd challenge). Something you are fond of doing.
Unfortunately for you, this time you did it such a slipshod manner you got caught out and arguably trumped. Yet you still refuse to pay, despite the payment in question going to charity (another one of your stipulations).
This really has not been your most edifying moment. You have earned the title of welcher, which will now forever colour how you are perceived on here, a site dedicated to political betting.
Who the F would bet with you now? What guarantee do they have that you will pay up, if a bet is framed by you - and only YOU decide if YOU have “lost”?
You ludicrous, ludicrous tit.
329. Easterross
I cannot fathom out how to locate them on the site.
You can’t access them easily as no one lists them as far as I know. The list here is from my own tracking which I started in December for the GE.
Yougov 07/12/2009 34
Comres 10/12/2009 17
ARS 12/12/2009 14
Yougov 14/12/2009 26
ARS 18/12/2009 18
Yougov 17/12/2009 22
Comres 20/12/2009 24
Yougov 04/01/2010 21
Yougov 05/01/2010 17
Yougov 06/01/2010 19
Yougov 07/01/2010 17
ARS 11/01/2010 16
Populus 10/01/2010 15
Comres 14/01/2010 22
Yougov 15/01/2010 18
Comres 21/01/2010 20
Conservative average for Dec was 22 for Jan so far is 18.
339 - Clearly you don’t understand what a bet is.
337. It does. Please Stop.
335
Yokel has been reporting in depth on this all day. It’s probably the most interseting story of the weekend. But since Labour is a sectarian party and discriminates against NI voters I fail to see why it should suddenly interest you.
306 Joshua
Mea culpa! I confess to being one of those who thought Brown would be an improvement on Blair. I rather thought we would have similar policies without the dissembling and with less contamination from Iraq. In fact policies haven’t changed that much but the presentation has and the sheer level of competence seem to have diminished.
If I have an excuse, it’s that Brown’s character and modus operandi was somewhat obscured from the public. I am astonished however that his PLP coleagues were not a little more astute. I should have thought they would have known him well enough to avoid the calamity of an unopposed election. They should perhaps also have moved to be rid of him before the electoral damage became too great.
But there you go. Wise after the event. Not a lot of good, is it?
By the way, I noticed your earlier post about the proliferation of vacuous postings, largely from Tory supporters. There are many very good Tory posters on here - David Herdson, Sean Fear, Richard Nabavi, to name but a few - but a wearisome number of flagwavers too. I would be sorry if they drove you off the Site. At its best, PB can be an education as well as heaps of fun.
It tends to get better when there’s some decent betting to be had. Stick with it. The election will increase the volume of betting and in all likelihood the quality of threads as a consequence.
336 Can it, Bunnco!
343 - It interests me if the man who wants to be PM has behaved as is being reported.
341. Clearly you don’t understand when to stop making a total arsehole of yerself.
You should have paid the money to Haiti and taken the rap with a smile. Now you are justifiably regarded as a welcher. Significant fail.
339 - Clearly you don’t understand what a bet is.
by tim January 24th, 2010 at 8:04 pm
As has been pointed out to you by the arbiter of the site, neither do you.
Should we hold a competition to identify who does know what a bet is? I can be the judge if you like. My decision will be final.
341.
Shut up, welcher.
346 - Done that already, sadly only one Tory entered the competition to explain their policy and he got the answer wrong.
335. Given that the SDLP are a Labour party why would they want to meet with the Conservatives unless they view them as the Government in waiting?
Local politics aside, why didn’t they retaliate and ask to speak with Woodward and Brown?
That doesn’t sound very good for Gordon Brown and Labour to me?
349. Shut up, welcher.
Can we have a new thread on Northern Ireland please.
The pond weed is fouling up this one.
re 341. It’s like Tim’s view of international law. He doesn’t believe in it and thinks that Blair & co can do whatever they like without constraint.
Anybody betting with Tim is a fool.
and he got the answer wrong.
by tim January 24th, 2010 at 8:10 pm
In your opinion. But hey, you’re such a polymath your opinion is the only one that counts isn’t it? Sadly the opinion of many on here whether you like it or not, is that you are a whelcher, learn to live with it. It is a reputation that will hang around you for some time.
“Anybody betting with Tim is a fool” - Mike Smithson
You have been warned!
313 Completely agree on your post HurstLlama. OGH obviously needs the traffic, and quantity definitely replaces quality these days.
The unfortunate thing is you now hoave to scroll past so many inane, boring posts from tim (welcher), LondonStatto et al that there is the danger of missing Yellow Submarine, Martin Day, Ave It, Platos, Chrisitne D etc’s posts.
The forum was much better about two years ago pre-tim and the others. I agree that this thread is about to be killed off by the inane posters, probably not long after the GE.
349.
What was the right answer, welcher?
353. Or even engaging with him at all.
353 - We had a bet on Julie Kirkbride winning a primary, Mike.
355. ATID.
I promise to be less boring when tim stops welching - or, better, stops posting.
and he got the answer wrong.
by tim January 24th, 2010 at 8:10 pm
In your opinion. But hey, you’re such a polymath your opinion is the only one that counts isn’t it? Sadly the opinion of many on here whether you like it or not, is that you are a welcher, learn to live with it. It is a reputation that will hang around you for some time.
353. Mike.
Seriously, why do you let hm continue to post? He’s so detrimental to your forum.
353. Oh my lord. tim is now officially harram. Non kosher. Sinbinned. In rehab. Hors de combat. Consigned to leper island. Up on blocks. Antipukka. Off games. The cagot. Playing Barnsley at home.
Political bettors? Don’t go to timland!
re 358. I’ve been been stung for £500 with bets on this site and I am only prepared to do this when I know the full identity of the person I am having a bet with and am satisfied that they will pay up.
Looks like the lubricant normally reserved for Saturday nights has been flowing a mite too freely today.
Meanwhile Labour still can’t get it through their heads that there is more to life than money:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5728383/harman-thinks-that-parentingskills-areall-about-income.thtml
eg 356, 358, 359, 361 Yaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnn
362. Now thats writing. Give that man a book deal.
guys, tim is embarrassed; please leave him alone.
I bet his face is redder than David Cameron’s.
To avoid confusion, when I say “bet” the word carries no implication about me paying any money to anyone in the event of me being wrong.
363 - And you’ll find that all bets I’ve had on here have been settled through PtP.
No point getting angry because I usually win.
364. Who the hell reserves lubricant for Saturday nights?
Every day is funKY day down at my gaff.
Don’t worry, I’ll get a minicab.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of tim’s latest adventure, it’s a bit tiresome watching people use the facade of a betting controversy to give him a kicking. We should at least try and divorce this specific scrap from the usual anti-tim inanity.
No point getting angry because I usually win.
by tim January 24th, 2010 at 8:22 pm
Is that because you get to decide what the correct answer is?
368. No point getting angry because I usually win.
…and don’t pay when you don’t
350.jsfl, Yokel is a great asset to PB.cm when it comes to keeping us totally updated on NI politics. And yet he posted one particular comment which has gone totally without comment over the last 24 hours, and the implications of that one post are absolutely dynamite to be honest. I certainly joined up the dots pretty quickly.
368 How many bets have you won tim? I know of at least one you didn’t win
368. You only “usually win” because, it turns out, only YOU determine when YOU have lost bets that YOU define in the first place.
I think most of us would keep a tidy book in those circumstances.
373. Christina D - I normally follow Yokel’s posts. Which one are you referring too?
No point getting angry because I usually win.
A veritable legend in his own reflection……
375 - Hardly Sean, betting has to be a two way arrangement.
So far, won £200 lost £20 a decent ratio I’m sure you will agree.
375. SeanT.
Interesting that he hasn’t yet come up with the correct answer to the question he posed.
Not that he ever promised to pay £50 if anyone answered it correctly…
tim, you better keep quiet about your winnings, it may well affect your benefit payments.
Is Chilcot calling IDS or any other tory? From People article linked above:
“The Tories, he [anonymous US source] claims, secretly promised US Prez George Bush to vote for war against Iraq no matter what, so Parliamentary approval was never a problem”.
Seems important if true.
An audience of undecided’s would soon focus their minds.
As a warm up Brown will have the Chilcot enquiry.
Can Brown sit still and stay calm while being bombarded with questions? Will Brown know the questions in advance? He is PM after all,wouldn’t want to embarass the PM now would we?
How long will he be quizzed? will it be multiple choice answers? Can he phone Balls?(his only chum)
Will the men in white coats be lurking in the wings, just in case?
Will Campbell,Balls & Mandy be allowed to lob mobiles at him if he says something truthful?
WELLLLLL you never know…..it has been known to snow in June.
370. It’s either Give tim a kicking (in this case justified), or Discuss how appallingly and depressingly young you are.
Hm.
373. Christina - could you point us in the direction of the post you are referring to, please?
383. Considering that your usual diversion tactic is to enjoin us all to discuss bottoms, I’m mildly concerned. You’re not…sober? Are you?
ok bedtime here in bangers.
Before I go, I have a suggestion. Given that tim is so keen on fightin’ in Iraq and Afghanistan and suchlike, perhaps we should all club together and buy him a commission in of Her Majesty’s regiments.
I hear these people are recruiting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Welch_Fusiliers
Nnnitekap.
Newsflash!!!
Gordon Brown has made concessions on the make up of the TV debates, the audience can now be made up of any party supporters, but with a strict upper age limit of 12
FT Editorial
Last Friday two brothers, aged 11 and 12, were detained indefinitely by a court in Yorkshire, north England, for torturing two young boys. David Cameron, the opposition Conservative leader, responded with a speech that painted this horrific incident as fresh evidence of Britain’s “broken society”. The UK, he says, is suffering from a “social recession”.
Mr Cameron has made these claims before. It is now his default response to unsettling events involving children that attract media attention.
Sadly the social policy that Mr Cameron is keenest about, an income tax break for the married, would not address these troubles
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f5d1a8fe-091f-11df-ba88-00144feabdc0.html
373 ChristinaD
The story in NI is the best of the weekend and has been largely ignored. Best details are on http://www.sluggerotoole.com
However it seems:
1. Owen Paterson ( shadow NI secretary )has a “secret” meeting with UUP and DUP the exact content is subject to speculation. He claims it was re keeping talks on Policing on track.
2. Rumours begin that a deal has been reached whereby DUP will not stand in 2 marginals Fermanagh South Tyrone and South Belfast. One area of speculation is that a greater NI Unionist vote would avoid dependency on the SNP if the Parliament was in hung territory.
3. Local party UUP and Conservative activists have no idea what is going on and 4 Conservative PPCs are allegedly withdrawing in disgust; that the candidates are Catholic and Female may blow a hole in the inclusive image the Conservatives in NI have been seeking to project.
4. Conservative HQ deny a deal has been struck and are now sitting on Owen Paterson.
Questions arising are:
Was Paterson going solo ?
If a deal has been struck will Conservative strategy dissolve in NI as no longer credible ?
Will the Conservatives field a more inclusive line-up at the elction and hold their word on breaking the sectatrian mould ?
Why should UCUNF help the DUP when many people on the ground wish to see them get some of their own back ?
So all told leadership test for Cameron, seats all over the place and interesting Scottish angle.
386.
Mike
Is my excellent post to Joshua caught in a spamtrap? Hard to imagine why.
tim 388, that’s it that’s the clincher, chalk me up as a labour voter. Well done comrade, we can now join forces in the thicket and take the fight to the filthy Cameronistas. VIVA, VIVA!!
Back on topic - sigh - I’m not too sure the debates will happen, there’s seems to be a few too many accidental May the 6th’s being dropped. Looking at the extended February recess, the likelihood of being just out of recession, the horrors of letting Darling present a budget, Chilcott .. GB might suprise us yet and go for March.
Given all the tetchiness on pb.com I’d certainly welcome it
388 tim - Oh dear, to think that the FT used to be such an excellent newspaper.
Did anyone else see this on David Kelly?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23798597-70-year-gag-on-kelly-death-evidence.do
“70-year gag on Kelly death evidence
“Evidence relating to the death of Government weapons inspector David Kelly is to be kept secret for 70 years, it has been reported.
“A highly unusual ruling by Lord Hutton, who chaired the inquiry into Dr Kelly’s death, means medical records including the post-mortem report will remain classified until after all those with a direct interest in the case are dead, the Mail on Sunday reported.
“And a 30-year secrecy order has been placed on written records provided to Lord Hutton’s inquiry which were not produced in evidence.
“The Ministry of Justice said decisions on the evidence were a matter for Lord Hutton. But Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker, who has conducted his own investigations into Dr Kelly’s death, described the order as “astonishing”.”
As a friend of mine (who knew David Kelly very well, gave evidence to the inquiry, and believes it was suicide) said in forwarding this to me, “The government certainly knows how to stir up speculation!”
337 - glad you liked it. I was 9 years old at the time so you’ve made me feel old to a certain extent.
394 - Sadly it has become a default position for Dave, stomach churning really.
He’d better handle the NI stuff properly, surely he can’t be involved in stuff like that.
I’m surprised Tim continues to post on here the amount of garbage that’s thrown at him. I’ve just read through the thread from the top and short of wading through one of SeanT’s books I can’t imagine anything more dull.
On a flight today I had a conversation with two people about politics. Both thought Brown unspeakably awful and would therefore probably not vote. Sometimes being a Labour supporter at this time reminds me of the film ‘The Hill’.
394
would that be the same FT Ed Balls used to right for ?
The one which used to be read by the people who ran businesses but which today is read by the people who regulate them ?
397.
Shut up, welcher.
395. Indeed TimT. Its convenient that one of the most contraversial events in the last 10 years will now be kept secret until just about everyone who will remember it is dead.
So there is absolutely no chance of a cover-up there then…..
Dear Gordon,
I have been a Labour voter since 1st May 1997, when I voted for
your 3-in-one deal for education, education, education. During this
13 year period I have encountered inadequacy of service which I had
not previously considered possible, as well as ignorance and stupidity of monolithic proportions. Please allow me to provide specific details,so that you can either pursue your professional perogative, and seek to rectify these difficulties - or more likely (I suspect) so that you can have some entertaining reading material as you while away the working day eating Fruit & Nut and drinking vendor-coffee on the bog in your bunker.
My initial free laptop and broadband installation was cancelled without warning, resulting in my spending an entire Saturday sitting on my fat arse waiting for your technician to arrive. When he did not arrive, I spent a further 57 minutes listening to your infuriating hold music, and the even more annoying Scottish robot woman telling me to look at your helpful website….HOW? I alleviated the boredom by playing with my t..ticles for a few minutes - an activity at which you are no-doubt both familiar and highly adept.
The rescheduled installation then took place some five years later,
although the technician did forget to bring a number of vital tools - such as a drill-bit, and his cerebrum. Three years later, my laptop has still not arrived.
Doubtless you are no longer reading this letter, as you have at least 13 million other dissatisfied customers to ignore, and also another one of those crucially important t..ticle-moments to attend to. Frankly I don’t care, it’s far more satisfying as a voter to voice my frustration’s in print than to shout them at your unending BBC party political broadcasts (otherwise known as Radio 4 and the Andrew Marr Show). Forgive me, therefore, if I continue.
I thought the Conservatives were s4it, that they had attained the holy piss-pot of godawful governments, that no-one, anywhere, ever, could be more disinterested, less helpful or more obstructive to delivering service to their voters. That’s why I chose Labour, and because, well, there isn’t anyone else is there? How surprised I therefore was, when I discovered to my considerable dissatisfaction and disappointment what a useless
shower of bastards you truly are. You are sputum-filled pieces of
distended rectum incompetents of the highest order.
Conservatives - w..nkers though they are - shine like brilliant beacons of success, in the filthy puss-filled mire of your seemingly limitless inadequacy. Suffice to say that I have now given up on my futile and foolhardy quest to receive any kind of service from you. I suggest that you cease any potential future attempts to extort votes from me for the services which you have so pointedly and catastrophically failed to deliver - any such activity will be greeted initially with hilarity and disbelief quickly be replaced by derision, and even perhaps bemused
rage.
I enclose two small deposits, selected with great care from my
cats litter tray, as an expression of my utter and complete contempt for both you and your pointless government. I sincerely hope that they have not become desiccated during transit - they were satisfyingly moist at the time of posting, and I would feel considerable disappointment if you did not experience both their rich aroma and delicate texture. Consider them the very embodiment of my feelings towards Labour, and its worthless MPs.
Have a nice day - may it be the last in you miserable short life, you irritatingly incompetent and infuriatingly unhelpful bunch of *****.
A swing voter
(With apologies to the greatest complaints letter of all time)
398. Roger: I’ve just read through the thread from the top and short of wading through one of SeanT’s books I can’t imagine anything more dull.
Then collect your refund on the way out.
“Harman thinks that parenting skills are all about income”
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5728383/harman-thinks-that-parentingskills-areall-about-income.thtml
394. to think that the FT used to be such an excellent newspaper.
Did it Richard? When?
405
they are if like Harriet you just get a nanny.
398.I can’t imagine anything more dull.
I can. Post 398…..
Dale is musing about doing another election night radio show. Only problem is Play Radio has gone tits-up. I hope he can sort something out alone the lines of the Euro / Local coverage, as personally I thought it was very good.
410. I agree
96. Those of you who are on facebook might like to join the Petition Group there which demands the release of David Kelly’s autopsy findings/
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=268665292211#/group.php?gid=268665292211
Dave needs to answer this
“If Owen Paterson was doing this on his own, the party leaders should fire him. If not, then it seems the leadership has agreed to get into bed not only with the UUP but now the DUP. This is the triumph of tribalism over inclusive, secular politics.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/24/conservatives-unionists-northern-ireland-owen-paterson-david-cameron
400 - Roger.
You’ll note that the vitriol increases when I’m right, theres a reassurance in the constant vitriol at the moment.
242 “Kelly again”
Given the rumour that Dorian was basically blackmailed out of being PM it does make you wonder. I’m more inclined to the view that the last 12 years have been a giant gay soap opera of spurned lovers, spite and jealousy but maybe not.
I see the herd have lost another argument.
When challenged, not a single one of them can describe Cameron’s tax policies but, to be fair to them, neither can he.
Well done tim!
415 yay, thank god reinforcements for the thicket. We can do it now tim, one last push, VIVA, VIVA.
413 - I notice the Guardian up to their usual high standard,
“Northern IRLAND Tories condemn secret talks with unionists”
415. Gabble you’re back. And I had hoped that you were to be kept secret for 70 years. Oh well we can’t have everything
Tell me though given you are soon to be evicted from the bunker and given your P45 are you busy packing, looking for accomodation and and work?
Because if you are I think the Conservatives might provide you some accomodation:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/7055836/Prison-ship-plan-under-consideration-by-Tories.html
407: runnymede @ 20:51
“to think that the FT used to be such an excellent newspaper.
Did it Richard? When?”
The FT always struck me as a good, if specialised, newspaper in the 1960s and early 70s. Aside from anything else it had a very good arts section.
Like so much else in English public life it seems to have started to go downhill in the mid-eighties and just accelerated in its awfulness as the years roll on. Mind you some of that is probably a direct result of me getting older and becoming more grumpy and pickled.
413. I note that right or wrong you are one of the few entertaining posters this evening. And for that reason I’m surprised so many are trying to drive you away. If posters only want to talk to the like minded why bother to come onto a discussion forum?
They might as well sit in a room with a drink and talk to themselves.
317 “The latest poster, famous now for the negative view of it conjured successfully by Labour, has proved a bit of a joke. The CGHQ bod’s need to get their finger’s out.”
Not so sure about that. If you did one of these for McDoom, http://www.andybarefoot.com/politics/cameron.php , i think it would be an interesting contrast.
415 wrong end of the stick, gabs. you are meant to re-bleat tim’s utterances out to the rest of us, not back to him.
tax policies: dc quite likes marriage and has a policy designed to mildly encourage it which might work a bit at the margin. the problem you have is with those words “at the margin” - tim pretends not to understand them and you genuinely don’t.
iht - dc thinks this takes too much money from the fairly well off and would like to take a bit less.
next?
420 - Well most of them aren’t particularly bright so I wouldn’t take them too seriously.
I was a little surprised at Mikes post upthread as he knows very well that I pay any losing bets and collect happily on winners.
422 Constan Treader
I presume that Cameron’s “at the margins” marriage policy has been costed. What is the annual cost of it?
422 “iht - dc thinks this takes too much money from the fairly well off and would like to take a bit less.”
And the aspirational and the risktakers, those who are going to be the ones who create growth in the economy. If they can make a million after tax, they should be allowed to pass that million onto their familiy, their friends, their dog if they so choose.
oh, and the tim “welching” stuff is now officially EXTREMELY tedious. Knock it off, all of you.
oldnat, I’m not sure but I think it is somewhat less than 178 billion. Will check just to make sure and get back to you.
422. Constan Treader: “dc quite likes marriage and has a policy designed to mildly encourage it…”
Really? Please describe it.
re 415. I would be interested to hear the views of Labour posters on whether Britain should obey international law. Disobeying seems to have been the party’s signature policy over the past thirteen years and no amount of retrospective self-justification can put it right.
Blair’s GMTV comments were an absolute outrage. A party that had a shred of principle in it would have brought Blair down in 2003.
Why didn’t Brown do as Robin Cook?
Yep oldnat, pretty much as I thought less than 178 billion.
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2010/01/ids-stands-firm-on-marriage-tax-breaks.html
423. Yes it was an uncharacteristic post from Mike. It must be difficult to run this site without going native occasionally.
428 - Robin Cook?
I believe you think he was a war criminal for his role in Kosovo.
413 tim, as an outsider, interested in the posts from Yokel, Alanbrooke and others (and Slugger o’Toole) it does strike me that SF
was intending to put a ultimatum this week, getting the PMs involved in last ditch attempt to save devolution. They didn’t quite do that. Their hand isn’t as strong as they thought.
Talk of unionist pacts makes a new Assembly election less easy to forecast and hopes they may have had of getting biggest party look dicey. SF doesn’t want a united opposition, not even on a non-formal basis. It also will now feel under pressure to do a deal before 6th May.
I have my concerns on what has/is happening but tend to view Guardian comment pieces as informed by republican gamesmanship rather than independent journalism.
There’s a piece by Osborne in the Times:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7000847.ece
Mr. Smithson,
As you are around, can I ask once again if we could have the poster’s name at the top of each post?
You did it once before and it didn’t seem to deter posters, but it did save huge amounts of time.
354 - “Anybody betting with Tim is a fool.”
Said by Mike Smithson ……..
surely case closed?
432 - All I’m saying is Cameron has some serious questions to answer about a sectarian carve up.
426. “oldnat, I’m not sure but I think it is somewhat less than 178 billion. Will check just to make sure and get back to you.”
If Osborne wanted to burn a pile of £10 notes a thousand feet high I still think he’d be more likely to get the budget under control than any conceivable Labour government.
When you are borrowing £6,000 a second to prop up spending you should shut the f*ck up about other parties plans.
428. ‘Why didn’t Brown do as Robin Cook?’
Why didn’t Claire Short Michael Howard 95% of the Tory Party?
I can’t explain it other than that the Tories and those on the right of the Labour Party like Blair believed that come what may we were obliged to do what the Americans did.
Time to move on and leave it for history to judge.
Police stop and search ‘not cutting knife crime’, new figures suggest
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/24/stop-and-search-operation-blunt
436 If you agree with the republican view that it is such a carve up, it’s useful to SF to make that accusation.
439 - Yet knife crime is falling, as the article points out.
428 Surely Brown acted just like Hilary Clinton and Brown’s other Democrat friends, support the war but try not to be a cheerleader for it, hoping nothing would stick if it went wrong?
424 I don’t think it has been.
427 Mildly encourage it. By tax breaks. Got it?
440 - It’s Catholic members of the Conservative Party in NI making that accusation.
340 thanks jsfl, I will copy these numbers for future reference.
428 Mike precisely. This week we will hopefully learn the basis upon which the English Attorney General determined that the Iraq invasion was legal when clearly a great many of us, including no small number of experts on International Law (of which I was a mere interested student and never an expert)always considered that in the absence of a follow-up resolution to 1401 and 1441, it could only be regime change which is specifically outlawed by the UN charter.
As for the Northern Ireland discussions, why would the leader of the main UK centre/right unionist party hold talks with a Northern Irish centre-left party which has long allied itself to the Labour party and in the case of the late Lord Gerry Fitt and John Hume effectively took the Labour whip. If we do see the UUP return to some prominence and in the process recover a number of Westminster seats then excellent news as far as this Scottish Tory is concerned. When I was a Young Conservative in the 1970s we had formal connections to the UUP and they attended the Scottish Conference every year. I had the pleasure of chairing a session one year which had Willie Ross the former UUP MP as guest speaker when I was an Area officer in the Scottish Young Conservatives.
I have to say those who are currently trying to bring up stories about the Tories faux pas as if its some kind of breaking scandal in NI are slow, sticky shit slow. Its been reported on this very forum for days including the necessity of the Tories to clarify on the situation.
Yet now all thats been been done, the Labour head shed manage to pick up on it all. Who the fuck is running that operation?
Jesus they are crap, laughable.
Meanwhile, Ive generally avoided the hype over Iraq but here are some questions for Chilcott….just in case he’s reading:
-Where are the memos from Dearlove to his regional Head in the Middle East raising that the politcians were badgering the spooks to come up with something rather more desirable than they were providing on WMD
-Or the memo from a top level DIS official raising concerns that intelligence was being driven more by PR needs of the politcians.
-Or maybe the SIS reports suggesting next no threat from Iraqi WMD because they had nothing
-Why where British Special Forces operating in Kurdistan told by their US counterparts that the evidence was that Saddam probably had a little bit of mustard gas in shells and not much else?
Lets hope he finds some of that information.
428. Mike Smithson
Resolution 1441 made the war legal, according to the Attorney General Lord Goldsmith.
Everyone else was entitled to their opinion but his was the one that counted.
‘432 - All I’m saying is Cameron has some serious questions to answer about a sectarian carve up.’
You’re assesment of what consistutes a ’serious question’ and your demands relating to the answering thereof are utterly meaningless until you have dealt with the many outstanding matters in your in tray.
413 - “You’ll note that the vitriol increases when I’m right, theres a reassurance in the constant vitriol at the moment.”
Oh dear god, whats worse…. the ego or the self delusion?
I have to say those who are currently trying to bring up stories about the Tories faux pas as if its some kind of breaking scandal in NI are slow, sticky sh1t slow. Its been reported on this very forum for days including the necessity of the Tories to clarify on the situation.
Yet now all thats been been done, the Labour head shed manage to pick up on it all. Who is running that operation?
Jaysus they are crap, laughable.
Meanwhile, Ive generally avoided the hype over Iraq but here are some questions for Chilcott….just in case he’s reading:
-Where are the memos from Dearlove to his regional Head in the Middle East raising that the politcians were badgering the spooks to come up with something rather more desirable than they were providing on WMD
-Or the memo from a top level DIS official raising concerns that intelligence was being driven more by PR needs of the politcians.
-Or maybe the SIS reports suggesting next no threat from Iraqi WMD because they had nothing
-Why where British Special Forces operating in Kurdistan told by their US counterparts that the evidence was that Saddam probably had a little bit of mustard gas in shells and not much else?
Lets hope he finds some of that information.
446.
‘Resolution 1441 made the war legal, according to the Attorney General Lord Goldsmith.’
Was that before or after he had allegedly been pushed up against a wall?
re 446. Let’s wait for the outcome of Chilcott on that one.
428 - Mike, you answered your own question
” A party that had a shred of principle in it would have brought Blair down in 2003.”
principles = the missing ingredient
re 446 gabble oh really. That’s a strange view of the law if you don’t mind me saying. Is this new Labour policy for reducing the deficit? Just ask Lord Goldsmith and he’ll tell you whether you’re guilty or not. Sacking all the judges will save a fortune.
449.Yokel, I suspect that this sudden interest and Brown’s talks with Cowen might have more to do with keeping other political stories in NI out of the media. Any word on further developments with SF, and has Gerry Adams brother been found yet?
436 tim
“All I’m saying is Cameron has some serious questions to answer about a sectarian carve up”
I don’t think Labour is the party to ask these questions. Given John Smith had one of the worst sectarian carve-ups in his Monklands constituency, and Ruth Kelly couldn’t would be barred from organising a local Labour party in the town of her birth.Despite the “equality” agenda Labour is more than happy to play religious politics when it suits.
446/451 Not sure Chilcott has the power to decide legality, it certainly isn’t the Attorney General who does (in both cases it would be opinion). He/she can only offer advice on to his/her view on legality, it takes a properly appointed Court with the correct competence to decide whether Attorney General is correct.
Blair’s Government can offer the Attorney General’s advice in defence of any action taken against them but question is who/where would such action be initiated?
438: Roger @ 21:40
“Time to move on and leave it for history to judge.”
I don’t believe that is possible, certainly not whilst any of the key players are still on the stage. The wounds are too raw and the damage too deep to enable any politican to say “lessons have been learned now its time to draw a line and move on” (people have also heard that too often in recent years).
If Chilcott wanted to do the Nation a service he would have turned his enquiry into a truth and reconciliation commission. He hasn’t and won’t and the Iraq debacle will haunt the body politic for decades to come.
I remember when Saddam was going to execute an Observer journalist and each week in the Observer we read heart rending stories about this shocking miscarriage of justice.
If the invasion had happened then the left might not have been so concerned about ‘international law’. It would have been a justifiable intervention like Bosnia. I think ‘international law’ is a red herring. We just hated Bush at the time more than Saddam.
Front Pages so far,
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Mondays-Papers—Newspaper-front-pages-Monday-January-25-2010/Media-Gallery/201001415534794?lpos=UK_News_Left_Promo_Region_0&lid=GALLERY_15534794_Mondays_Papers_-_Newspaper_front_pages_Monday%2C_January_25%2C_2010
437 glw
Not sure if you were being offensive to me, don(the other one) or the world in general.
459 - Lord Myners being a massive hypocrite in the Guardian.
434 Mike, please disregard HurstLlama’s request to re-position the poster’s name. This prevents one from reading posts after refreshing the thread without making a further manual scrolling adjustment. Things are just fine as they are.
Headlines on Sky news make clear Brown has well and truly been dragged into the Iraq war issues that face Blair and the party in general.
Whos idea was it to hold the enquiry now??
Oh.
The fact that the Labour Party might be guilty of sectarian carve-ups, Alanbrooke (about which I have no idea), does not mean that the Conservatives should not be questioned about what they seem to be trying to do in Northern Ireland.
This goes back 100, years, doesn´t it? “Ulster will fight….” etc. It was a disgrace then, and it is a disgrace now.
If Cameron´s Conservatives were confident of having an overall majority, they wouldn´t be doing it. The fact that they are trying to carve things up in Northern Ireland suggests their own lack of confidence in their ultimate victory. They are clearly looking towards a No Overall Majority result.
Bang goes Cameron´s USP.
458 If the justification for the war was the captivity of an Observor journalist or miscarriages of justice in Iraq, then Blair should have put that case.
In the event Blair put up one another one.
The question is whether he did so falsely or negligently.
btw, as a result of ComRes, we’re back in “The Zone”…
http://hungparliament2010.blogspot.com/
466
You think so Rod, not everyone agrees with your “model”
The way to deal with knife crime is to target muggers for extreme sentences as most of the people carrying knives are carrying them for protection against a group of individuals who more or less overlap exactly with muggers. If you took out that group 80% of the people carrying knives would stop.
It won’t happen because of race.
So in the end all the mainstream parties will duck the issue and fiddle the figures like ZNL have been doing and lots of people who live where guardian readers don’t get to practice their bleeding skills.
Same as it’s been for 40 years except over a slowly ever widening area.
Why is Peter the Punter so judicious?
Surely due process would be better served on pb.com by finding tim guilty of all charges known or unknown before any consideration of the merits of any case?
467. and your model is?
462: Peter from Putney @ 22:01
Each to their own, old chap. You might like wading through lots of invective, personal attacks and general nonsense, but I find it tedious and a waste of precious time.
However, perhaps Robert’s computer wizzardry could satisfy us both so that we can have names a the top and not have to do a manual adjustment. You never know what these clever fellows can do these days.
464 Forgive me for not addressing NI politcs, but I suspect Cameron doesn’t have a USP.
He has SPs.
One of which is he is not Gordon Brown.
464
I haven’t said they shouldn’t be questioned and have set out a list of my own at 391.
However a Labour party which has its own dirty washing to sort out first is not the vehicle to put the questions.
Please may we have a recap of Lord Myners’ total earnings, including bonuses, pension and other benefits, share options, etc, etc whilst he was Chairman of Marks and Spencer?
469. Seth. If you had posted that a month ago I’ve no doubt you would now be our undisputed POTY.
Thousands of criminals to serve less time in prison under Government plans
Tens of thousands of criminals will spend less time in prison under Government plans to limit the ability of judges to set jail sentences, an official document has disclosed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/7067620/Thousands-of-criminals-to-serve-less-time-in-prison-under-Government-plans.html
Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime!
464. Yeah because of course we are not part of the UK and therefore shouldnt in anyway have UK political parties fighting for votes, not at all.
I vaguely remember the Labour government calling on DUP support to do with some legislation….what exactly was the deal for that one mmmm?
Oh this is just to good not to share….
From Harrys place
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2010/01/24/the-wisdom-of-councillor-kelly/
“This is Labour Councillor Terry Kelly, who represents Ward 4 in Paisley North West.”
“He says he was the election agent of Wendy Alexander, the former leader of the Labour Party in Scotland, at the last two elections.
Yesterday and today he has visited this blog to share his wisdom. In case you missed them, here are some of the pearls he left us, with such disarming decorum:”
One snippet from his ravings
“Very convenient; why is it you clowns are always able to produce and English relative who doesn’t mind you being SNP anti English racist. Aye it might be rubbish but at least its Scottish rubbish. Im not drunk but I bet you are on the crap they call whisky; been taking it without shortbead again; ye naughty wee gnat lassie.”
Enjoy
474 - Dont’ forget this,
Lord Myners hid his money in tax haven
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5993185.ece
472. I think not being Gordon is his only SP. I met two people on a plane today who thought Brown was just awful. They didn’t seem to have any political opinion other than that. It’s becoming an accepted fact I’m afraid.
Following on from 478
” There is no UK party and I include the BNP more filthy with racists and liars than the SNP.”
Wow, if this not someone pretending to be him he must be out on his ear surely?
460. “Not sure if you were being offensive to me, don(the other one) or the world in general. :-)”
I wasn’t being offensive to you. It’s Labour moaning about the cost of a very minor policy whilst they borrow money at an unprecedented rate that winds me up. That said no party is being straight about the deficit, debt or budget in the years ahead, and the parties are arguing about trivia.
447/455 - So thats your contirbution.
Cameron has no questions to answer despite Catholic Conservatives seemingly believing that their party has become involved in Sectarian politic in NI because.
1.There are apparently worrying question in “my” in tray that must be answered before David Cameron is required to.
2.John Smith, a man who died 15 years ago did something in Monklands.
Rubbish answers you two, try harder.
Alanbrooke, I think you are falling into the usual Tory trap. That of thinking that anybody who questions the Tory position must be part of the Labour machine.
I hold no brief whatsoever for the Labour Party. But they haven´t accused me of being a Tory for several years now. To their credit.
But even I would not insist that they (Labour) sort out all their dirty washing, before they start to question the Tory position. I don´t think we can wait that long.
471 HL - you may well be right in terms of there now being a solution, but at the time I found it a nightmare trying to read a thread that way. At least as irritating as the oversized post numbers which prevented the text from being properly aligned. A complete aberration, which thankfully didn’t last long.
469 Seth O. Logue
Lord Braxfield would have been proud of you!
480. I suspect that regularly hitting 40% in the polls means he has more than that. No alternative Labour leader puts them at level pegging.
464 Don’t talk crap. David Cameron believes that the Conservative Party should fight elections in every part of the UK. Until the 1970s the UUP was a part of the wider Conservative Party. He probably wants to have an Irish MP as his Secretary of State for Northern Ireland who actually sits for a NI seat. After all the immediate past leader of that party, Lord Trimble sits as a Tory Peer and is a Shadow Minister. It is indeed time that the centre-right in Northern Ireland were represented by a party regardless of religion.
446 - That was not what Lord Goldsmith’s advice said. His evidence this week should be more interesting than Tony Blair’s.
484,no not labour machine,next to labour ,little mini me lib dems
have you joined the 16% club yet
404. Perfidious albion.
Sally, I think that Cameron has two USPs.
1. For internal consumption, that only he can lead the Tories to regain their “rightful place as the party of government”. That one is starting to wear a bit thin now.
2. For external consumption, that he is not Gordon Brown. That remains true.
However, lots of other people are not Gordon Brown either. And some of them could be the next prime minister - not necessarily Cameron - and in particular Nick Clegg. So that is an increasingly weak Tory argument too.
This is clearly a cue for the usual Tory posters to start talking about drug consumption. Who will be the first one?
481 Floater
He is real! Welcome to Renfrewshire politics - Labour style. You normally only get to see the Douglas Alexander version. Kelly is what lies behind that “acceptable” face.
483 tim
the fact that you have been asleep all weekend and missed a story given to you on a plate by Yokel only makes your faux-outrage more laughable. You also haven’t kept up to speed with where the story is at present.
Re your point 1 - I’m sure Cameron will be shit scared that you think he has to answer your questions first. Are you standing for a higher office than him?
Re 2 John Smith sat on huge mess of sleaze in his constituency and covered it up for years.
483 Yes Tim, John Smith did do something about the sectarian problems in Monklands. He did a “Pontius Pilate” wrung his hands and did nothing. To be fair to her, Stalin’s GRanny who inherited his seat tackled it head on and received death threats in the process. I don’t like the woman but I admired her courage for taking on the sectarian elements in the Labour party and its hangers on in North Lanarkshire.
Ah come on Easteross you know we are special, so special in fact that it took the Labour Party to be dragged through legal process before theyd even organise here.
What was one of the Labour Party’s excuses? It had a sister party here..the SDLP a sectarian, a strongly nationalist and Catholic party.
Given this sister party, in no way we can accuse Labour of anyway cementing the sectarian nature of NI politics…….
Tebbit in the DT
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/normantebbit/100023495/why-is-new-labour-so-reluctant-to-arrest-somali-pirates/
“Why is New Labour so reluctant to arrest Somali pirates?”
He concludes with the following
“Any more for the NuLab madhouse?”
492. Curious: lots of other people are not Gordon Brown either. And some of them could be the next prime minister - not necessarily Cameron - and in particular Nick Clegg.
Oh dear.
493.oldnat, wasn’t there a blog called Kelly watch a few years back?
494/5/6 - No one wants to address what the Tories have been up to and whether Cameron is involved.
I think we’ll take our own conclusions from that.
498.Or was it called Terry watch or something?
499 - “I think we’ll take our own conclusions from that.”
Ah, make up an assumed position that suits you?
Why not just say that?
484 Curious
actually my experience is that Tories question their leadership more than outsiders. They are not afraid to undertake self criticism.
Maybe if Labour had been more willing to tackle their dirty laundry they would be in a stronger position today. One of the failings of a compliant media has been to fail to push the government to test destruct their policies. As a result we have unworkable laws, social incohesion and a governement which has moved so far from its voters the BNP gained more votes.
485: Peter from Putney @ 10:18
The oversize numbers were truly ghastly. I hope Robert can find a solution that suits us both.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/normantebbit/100023495/why-is-new-labour-so-reluctant-to-arrest-somali-pirates/
Tebbit on the madness that is New Labour
Mike, in response to your request (if only to distract from the tedious tim-baiting) - normally, yes, I do think we should stay inside international law. But I don’t think that international law is sufficiently well-developed to cover every case adequately. There are, for instance, circumstances in which it’s right to go to war for without UN cover, if, for instance, one Security Council member is digging in its heels for obvious national advantage (cf Russia/Serbia). If a consequence of inaction is sufficiently bad, merely saying that international law regrettably prevented action is not enough excuse.
For example, I would in retrospect favour Western intervention in Zaire - against the wishes of the then government and without any justification in international law that I can think of - roughly a million people died because the world left them to get on with it.
Whether Iraq was justified or not is another matter, but I don’t think the legal issue is the decisive argument. The key issues are IMO the number of people who died subsequently, the extent to which the deaths can be blamed on the coalition, and the number who would have died if Saddam had stayed in power and how likely it is that he would have engaged in further WMD-fuelled wars of his own. I don’t think that anyone is in a position to be certain either way, and I doubt if the inquiry will be able to be certain either.
495 For anyone unfamiliar with Scottish politics, “Stalin’s Granny” is the Rt Hon Helen Liddell, former General Secretary of the Scottish Labour Party, thereafter a Monklands Labour MP and Secretary of State for Scotland and until recently H.M. High Commissioner to Australia.
Mods - I have a post in moderation, must be a word in the URL? (p*rate perhaps?)
504. I notice your party officials have been very quiet on this supposed scandal about the Tories Nick.
I wonder why that is? Maybe Sean Woodward could tell us about the sensitive work he’s doing with Owen Paterson and we can get to the heart of the story?
Ah, make up an assumed position that suits you?
Make up a Tory policy, and then condemn it.
Airbrush a Tory poster, and then complain about it.
New Labour playbook. Not long now till it’s all over
499 tim
Call us old-fashioned but we do like the truth to get in the way of a good story.
I have no doubt more facts will emerge tomorrow and that will be the the time to comment.
In the meantime following from 496 when will Gordon be contesting the NI seats ? All those dour Calvinists it’s got to be at least 10 seats for you !
504 Nick you supported Tony Blair and were misled by him but continued to support him even after you found out he had lied to Parliament, the Queen and the country.
International Law was sufficiently well developed for us to execute a number of high ranking Germans after Nurumberg, to seek to bring Pol Pot’s supporters to justice, to bring the Serbian leadership to justice, to hold Libya to account for Lockerbie etc etc.
Of course you also supported the extradition treaty which allows British subjects to be sent to the USA to face kangeroo courts without any due process in any UK court.
The court of History will determine what your party has done in 13 years, 13 years in which your party has sent British troops into 5 wars, in at least 2 cases inadequately supplied and with no idea of how you might win the peace.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/matthewd_ancona/7063399/The-Chilcot-Inquiry-is-New-Labours-death-rattle.html
“The Chilcot Inquiry is New Labour’s death-rattle
The testimony on show at the Chilcot Inquiry reveals Tony Blair’s Cabinet to be craven wimps,”
“No: my acquaintance was talking about the death-rattle of an entire political cohort, the New Labour elite that conquered all before it in the political revolution of the mid-Nineties. Now, as the final scene of the final act is played out, the remnants of that cohort shuffle off the stage, ending the story not with bang but a whimper.”
Thank you, London Statto, for your reply. At least you did not start accusing me of drug consumption, which is what Tory posters normally do on here, to everybody who dares to disagree with them.
A few weeks ago, here on PBC, there was a lengthy discussion about the claim of Mr Salmond to take part in the party leader debates. This was strongly rejected - not least by the Conservative posters - that there were only three leaders whose party was putting up enough candidates for him to have any chance of becoming prime minister: Gordon Brown (or substitute), David Cameron and Nick Clegg. That was the argument you all used to justify the exclusion of Mr Salmond.
So we have a selection of three possibilities to be our next prime minister. Consensus of PBC posters.
And now the Conservatives seem to be losing ground. And their seeking support in Northern Ireland suggests that they recognise the weakness of their position.
427 422. Constan Treader: “dc quite likes marriage and has a policy designed to mildly encourage it…”
Really? Please describe it.
by Gabble January 24th, 2010 at 9:30 pm
Before we all get intentionally distracted by the normal posters here can someone please explain to me why Labour hate marriage and married people so much? Even more so why do they hate the middle class so much in fact why are they so obsessed with class at all?
I still do not have a satisfactory answer as to why Labour can attack anyone in regard to their class but they say you can’t pick on anyone because of their colour, their age, sexuality, height, their religion (unless they are white Christians wotking for BA of course then you can) and a myriad of other reasons but….. the only exception to this is class why is that?
Labour deceitfully use class as a weapon which is no different to using colour sex or age as a weapon. To call someone a toff in my opinion is totally offensive and no different to calling them any other name of the above types of people so I wonder why Labour do it and also feel they can get away with it.
They have either broken their own law or they are just quite simply hypocrites all.
IMO GE will be March 25th. Labour = sub 200
499 Tim you know full well that many of us find the best thing to do is simply ignore you. Do you get free shares in Haliburton as your reward from the bunker for working overtime?
504: Nick Palmer MP @ 22:35
“and the number who would have died if Saddam had stayed in power and how likely it is that he would have engaged in further WMD-fuelled wars of his own.”
Nick, I know you have to appear loyal and all that but really.
“We had to go to war in 2003 against a murderous dictator that had been in power for the best part of thirty years because he might, at some time in the future, have used WMD, that he didn’t have, on someone else”
Come on, Nick, we expect better of you.
You know whatI find confusing, it was posted on this forum months ago that the DUP would likely give some kind of support to the Tories in the event of tight parliamentary mathematics just as Labour struck deals for their support.
I really cant get why people have been so slow. Is it because they havent a clue how it works over here or it the realisation that the DUP may not bail out Labour this time around?
514 - And I hang on your every word about Liverpool Mosside and Anne Begg of East Lothian.
What a shame.
504 - The Iraq war was a terrible, terrible mistake. It was a catastrophic geopolitical error that poisoned our political system especially amongst the many young people that marched in opposition. This was their first experience of politics and the lessons learnt were of betrayal and hopelessness. However, it was a political and moral failure rather than a legal one.
International law is so ambiguous that it is virtually meaningless. Law only means something when accompanied by sovereignty. There is no international sovereignty and therefore ‘international law’ becomes inherently murky. Who decides what it is? Who enforces it? Until we have a global authority ‘international law’ will remain nebulous.
512 Curious why on earth would a man who is not seeking election to a Parliament let alone seek to lead its biggest party think he should take part in a series of national debates.
We all believe that the SNP, PC, BNP, UKIP, Greens etc etc should have an opportunity to put over their points of view and if that means further debates filmed or shown only in nations or regions within the UK good and well.
Why on earth would the 50 million English, 3 million Welsh or 1.5 million Ulster citizens want to hear what Alex Salmond thinks or wants? As a Scot I want to hear what his party thinks or wants but only in relation to the future running of Scotland. I will have the chance to do that and vote in accordance with my impression of his views in 2011 in something called the Scottish General Election.
Alanbrooke, I agree with you in your criticisms of the Labour Party and the Labour Government.
However, I would not accept entirely your observation that Conservative members are more critical of Camerson´s leadership than outsiders. If they were, indeed, more critical than myself for example, the Conservative Party would fall to pieces immediately.
However, you may be leaving that until after you have won the election.
13 Batch File - agreed.
Remember Harperson only sent her kids to ‘good’ schools 12 miles away because Tories ‘were in power’.
521 - What Milibands excuse?
David Miliband faced hypocrisy charges tonight for sending his son to a sought-after Church of England school despite being an atheist.
The Foreign Secretary snubbed a non-faith school 80 yards from his home in favour of an ‘exceptional’ Anglican primary more than a mile away.
Rhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245710/Atheist-David-Miliband-hypocrisy-row-sending-son-Anglican-primary.html#ixzz0dZbnHgEX
As the guns of war seem to be drowning out the cries of peace…
Why are we all so certain that the real motive behind the Iraq War was “regime change”?
My reading is that Second Iraq war was a direct consequence of and response to the threats confirmed by 9/11.
These were:
1. Asymmetric war waged on Western territories [US in particular] by terrorists recruited, trained, financed and organised by Islamic Fundamentalist groups in failed states.
Examples: Afghanistan, Yemem, Somalia
2. Active support for such terrorism in Rogue States: e.g. political support, financing, covert intervention by secret services etc.
Examples: Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya
3. Failure to take appropriate action against terrorists and radical groups - blind-eye toleration or ineffective control - and/or non-governmental support e.g. financing etc.
Examples: Saudi Arabia and most of the rest of the Middle East as well as the Islamic or Islamist influenced countries of Africa and the Far East.
Washington responded to 9/11 by invading Afghanistan with the aim of destroying Al Qaeda. To succeed in this objective, it was required to remove the Taleban as its ‘governmental’ support.
The question then remained on what to do about the threats identified 2. and 3. The answer was to take military reaction against at least one of the rogue states in order to demonstrate political will. Iraq was the obvious target due to the GW I and its recent history of flouting UN resolutions. Iraq was chosen simply because it was “doable”. The primary aim was not regime change, but to clearly signal the US’s intention to respond with military force anywhere in the world where it perceived there was a threat, including in particular any sovereign territory in the Middle East. Regime change was a by-product of this aim and not an end in itself.
The problem with Blair is that he saw “regime change” as the principle goal and believed that a war on these grounds was morally if not legally justified. Rather than attempting to sell the war on this basis - which wasn’t even totally aligned with the US position - he fell back on using the threat from WMDs as an excuse. Neither the UN nor even the US and Britain’s main ‘NATO’ allies were prepared to accept this deception. Nonetheless, Blair held to the line and used the same excuses to ’sell’ the war to parliament and the British public. Although scarcely believed at the time, the justification was bought in on the basis of trust in the institutions that proposed it - i.e. the Prime Minister & the Cabinet. When the WMD argument fell apart so dramatically, the main casualty of the war in Britain became trust in the government. Belatedly, Labour are now paying the price for this breach.
The principal arguments today should not be whether the war was justified or not, or even whether it was legal or not. It is too late for this. The fact that Blair and the Labour government did not present an honest case for the war denied Parliament and the British people the opportunity and right to debate the true merits of the action and to reach a decision based on the proper evidence and the full context. The Queen, Parliament and the people of Britain were deceived and silenced by Blair’s actions. That is the crime and that should be the finding of the Chilcot Inquiry.
[P.S. A revised version of an earlier post which disappeared into the moderation ether]
520 Really ?
try reading some of the posts on Conservative Home, the Spectator or the Telegraph. The only equivalent I can think of on the Labour who will come out openly and criticise are Charles Clarke and Polly Toynbee.
517 You know full well I meant Anne Picking or Moffat.
500 ChristinaD
I don’t know. His blog is just “Cllr Terry Kelly”. Fairly standard hard left of the old STUC school - Communist rather than Trot.
517 And PB readers voted for Easterross more than you.
Tsk, know your place [assumes tim know-it-all-smug-mode]
493. The SNP in Renfrewshire have had their moments too over the years.
526 - Another weighty contribution.
512 curious, I have no idea what has been going on in NI with the Tories. And Cameron has often said that the election is far from won. But it would at the very least be prudent to put out some feelers to find out what the price of support from the Unionists would be, in the event that the Tories are short of a majority in a few weeks time. Their price may be utterly unacceptable - in which case, if Cameron leads the largest party but is shy of an overall majority, he will better know where he stands in those few hours between the results coming in and going to the Palace to try to form a Govt.
I think to suggest that Cameron has given up on getting an overall majority and is already desperately doing side deals, as you imply, is grasping at straws. Just Cameron doing some prudent management and covering all bases. Why would he do any deals now, when he may well not need to follow up on them?
I am still of the view, as I have said often, that the most likely outcome is a modest Tory majority - between 20-30.
Next most likely is Cameron with a VIPA style blow-out mega majority.
Less likely still, I see a minority Cameron administration a la the SNP in Scotland, defying the other parties to vote down his budget.
Less likely still is a minority Cameron administration that has previously tied itself to the Unionists by some shoddy deal.
I don’t see a scenario this year that involves Cameron talking to the LibDems, however. Sorry.
519. Why on earth would the 50 million English, 3 million Welsh or 1.5 million Ulster citizens want to hear what Alex Salmond thinks or wants?
What an interesting way of putting it. Why on earth would the 1.5 million “Ulster citizens” want to hear what Gordon Brown and (more especially) Nick Clegg have to say, when they won’t have the chance to vote for either? More to the point, why should the leader of just one Northern Ireland party (Cameron) have all that airtime which none of that party’s opponents (the DUP, SDLP, Alliance, Sinn Fein) will have?
There is no three-way UK party system. There are four separate party systems in the UK, and the debates must reflect that within each territory, just as PEBs have always done - and just as the leaders’ specials have done in the last two elections. The precedents here are absolutely clear.
520 One of the reasons the Tory party remained in power for more of the last 200 years than any other party is that we managed to wash our dirty linen in private. When we forget that we lose power.
We Tories are incredibly self critical but we seek to move forward once we learn from our mistakes.
You would be foolish if you think David Cameron is not the subject of considerable internal criticism. To ensure a free flow of thoughts he emails several thousand of us every week and invites responses.
Unlike Gordon Brown or indeed Nick Clegg, David Cameron has gone on national TV in recent weeks and admitted when he has made mistakes either of policy or presentation. Will we ever see Gordon Brown in a TV interview admit that de-regulating the banks was a mistake? No, it will be an error begun in America by Eton educated Tories during the Thatcher government.
Huge expanses of British town and city centres built in the Sixties and Seventies may have to be torn down to meet carbon emission standards for buildings.
In an interview with The Times, the Government’s new chief construction adviser said that there may be no choice but to demolish buildings put up in those decades because it is impossible to refurbish them to a sufficiently high standard.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/construction_and_property/article7000842.ece
500. 525. Is this the one, Christina?
http://www.heraldscotland.com/failed-tory-candidate-contributed-to-hate-website-attacking-political-rival-1.828823
527 NoOffenceAlan
Indeed!
528 And it doesn’t change the stats though - more voted for Easterross than you
512 Curious after all Tony Blair in 1997 put in place the building blocks for a coalition with the LibDems including Paddy Ashdown in one of the 4 great offices of state.
530
they can have all the airtime they want they only have to stand in all the seats. The smaller parties also have the chance to ally with one of the major parties if they want.
With regard to NI broadcasting, voters will be bored to the point of switching off with second rate politicos from all parties lying to them on regional TV. Salmond could stand there if he wishes voters on the West coast of Scotland could then see him twice.
I also note that there is no explanation yet of the sudden Government U turn ‘we are your friends’ just weeks before an election. They are as slippery as a snake oil salesman
Spot the difference:
1) The Army Benevolent Fund said that the ongoing campaigns and the Government’s failure to adequately care for gravely injured veterans returning home means its coffers are severely depleted.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/3195187/Soldiers-wounded-in-Afghanistan-may-be-denied-charity-help-due-to-cash-crisis.html
2) “Under government plans announced over the weekend all veterans, also including those who fought in Northern Ireland, the Falklands, Iraq and Afghanistan, will be allowed to jump to the top of the waiting list. Mike O’Brien, the health minister, said that meetings with those wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan convinced him veterans needed special treatment. Mr O’Brien said he had ordered the fast-tracking of the scheme to begin now.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7067109/World-War-veterans-to-be-given-priority-healthcare.html
Hypocrites.
“you can’t separate out good parenting skills from family income.”
So said Harriet Harman as quoted in today’s Times. So there you are folks its official from the Labour Party, poor people are crap parents. People with larger incomes are better parents and, of course, the aristocracy and filthy rich are the best parents of all - which gives Harman the right to boss us all about.
Miliband on Marr said Labour was going on change [?] crime, education and chronic care - sounded quite specific stuff to me.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00qcks0/The_Andrew_Marr_Show_24_01_2010/
298. “I made an observation.
I also observe that some posters are keen to label those who intend to vote Tory as Tories, when they aren’t - if you can’t accept a 3x Labour voter as someone who ISN’T a Tory
And frankly, what’s wrong with being a Tory? This feels like some weird thinking that everyone who disagrees with their ideology is a wing-nut.”
I missed this hours ago but it simply has to be commented on. My questions were - a) if there is nothing wrong with being a Tory why are you so touchy about being called one (especially as you plan to vote for them!), and b) if you are not happy to be called a Tory would you concede that your political views can nevertheless be accurately described as right-of-centre?
Instead of addressing these questions, you seem very keen to answer points that I didn’t actually make. I wonder why?
Moderators.
Have a post stuck a 523.
Any chance of release?
535 There you go again - resorting to facts to win an argument.
Cuh. That’s not playing the game. Has 13 years of New Labour rule taught you nothing?
533.Alan, yes that must be it. I just remember reading about it being closed down, and no wonder!
540 I still don’t see how an incumbent Govt. runs the “change” argument. It’s “steady as she goes”, “don’t risk the recovery” - not “we’ve been quite shite for 13 years, haven’t we? Still, we CAN do better - just gives us a chance to show you…”
537. “they can have all the airtime they want they only have to stand in all the seats.”
This is startling. So in your view Gordon Brown and Nick Clegg should also be banned from the debates, given that neither is the leader of a party that is contesting all the seats?
541 - Plato claims to be a Libertarian who is going to vote for Nigel Waterson, one of the most authoritarian homophobic MPs in the house.
I think she may be a Librarian.
539 We all know that toffs are the only responsible and effective pet owners too :rolls:
Good night all. I wonder how the political landscape will seem this time next week once we have heard from T Blair Esq.
547 And you are voting for which Labour MP that isn’t standing down…?
Numpty, Mr Wasting PfP Time.
546
you are easily startled.
Not to sure what happened here with these MP’s but as Tim is the expert on these things perhaps he could supply some further detail for us here on PB.com?
MP David Chaytor used daughter in expenses scam
Labour’s David Chaytor claimed almost £13,000 on a flat he owned by pretending to rent it
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6999858.ece
O maybe this…
Labour MP ordered to forfeit £65,000 grant over ’serious breach of rules’ Harry Cohen, the Labour MP, has been ordered to forfeit his £65,000 resettlement grant for a “particularly serious breach” of parliamentary rules. He also has to formally apologise to Parliament.
As you say, Easterross, Tony Blair was so unsure of his prospects in 1997 that he laid down “building blocks” with the Liberal Democrats, just in case. Such is the weakness of the FPTP voting system, that this proved unnecessary, and Blair could operate without any controls over his subsequent irresponsible actions.
It would have been much better, of course, for the country if we had had a fair voting system, and Blair had had to take account of what the Liberal Democrats thought about his proposed policies.
In the case under discussion, I dread to think what a right-wing Cameron govenment might be like under the influence of even more bigoted Northern Irish politicians.
If that is what Cameron is planning for, I think you Tories ought to come clean about what is in store for the rest of us.
543
PB and facts - nightmare 
551. Well, I suppose I shouldn’t be startled at the lack of recognition of the party system in Northern Ireland. A few weeks ago, it took several patient attempts to explain why Ian Paisley’s victory as ‘NI Politician of the Year’ may not have been entirely warranted!
550 - I presume you meant PtP, airhead?
553
“bigoted Northern Irish politicians”
IIRC 2 NI politicians Trimble and Hume are the only UK politicians to have a Nobel Peace prize. Since bias seems to be a concern perhaps you should consider your own.
552
He’s waiting for Mssrs Chaytor and Cohen to become a Latvian Waffen SS affliates
556 Thanks for making my point
552 - Thankfully they are standing down.
Spelman, Djanogly and Hunt will be in a Conservative Govt.
558 - Empty again.
Nitey nite all.
As a long-time lurker here can I be the first to congratulate our host Mike on his appearance on the BBC tonight?
On topic, I think there is no chance of these debates ever happening - everything that Brown announces these days is the product of an ever-tightening vortex of news cycles, reaction to events, media manipulation and spin.
Oldnat - a link to Councillor Kelly`s latest pearl of wisdom may convince our disbelieving cosmopolitan southern pundits that he really is able to convince otherwise sane people to vote for him.
http://councillorterrykelly.blogspot.com/
557. “IIRC 2 NI politicians Trimble and Hume are the only UK politicians to have a Nobel Peace prize. Since bias seems to be a concern perhaps you should consider your own.”
Oh, come on. Look down the list of Nobel Peace Prize winners and you’ll notice one fairly obvious pattern - a high percentage of them come from conflict zones. Probably the simplest way of avoiding winning the prize is to live in a country free of bigotry, strife and warmongering.
But certainly nobody could ever seriously accuse John Hume of being a bigot. Trimble is a very complex character who looked for all the world like a hardliner when he was first elected leader, but ultimately a worthy Nobel laureate.
458. I hate to say it but Roger at 458. has a point - I agree that an overwhelming part of the left’s opposition to Iraq was about knee-jerk anti-Americanism, not legal principles.
The complete lack of scruples (even gloating in some quarters) about the attack on Kosovo/Serbia (also ‘illegal’) rather proves this - that was OK because it was in favour of a noble minority and against the pantomime fascist villain Milosevic. There’s no consistency here.
562
obviously they come from conflict zones, hence people making moral judgements on conflict zones from a safe distance always strike me as asinine. Those making the judgement don’t know what they would do if in a similar position.
563 - Some of us were opposed to intervention in both Kosovo and Iraq, but in favour of intervention in Afghanistan and Sierra Leone. Like Nick Palmer, I would have favoured more of an attempt to intervene in Congo/Zaire, for which a respectable argument could have been made at international law.
Fears of ‘licence to kill’ as Tories bid to change self-defence law
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7000934.ece
560 552 - Thankfully they are standing down.
Spelman, Djanogly and Hunt will be in a Conservative Govt.
Not good enough.
Those also proven in a similar light and having vastly greater sums to pay I might add are actually right now in government and whats worse also in cabinet including the PM. These people also wish to continue to be in a Labour government (and PM) after the next election so what is precisely the difference?
Funny you seem not to mention that but of course Spellman is a Tory so has to pay the price but Labour Mp’s can continue as if nothing happened. Some would say thats hypocritical and of course they would be right.
I think they should all be out but still. Perhaps now your blatant hypocriscy has been shown to all perhaps you will now give it a rest but somehow I doubt it.
“It had a sister party here..the SDLP a sectarian, a strongly nationalist and Catholic party.”
Please don’t lie - there’s always someone here who knows, you know… (usually me)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Cooper
566
Actually this proposed law is no threat to thieves in any way so long as thieves:
1) Don’t break into peoples houses,
2) Tie them up or threaten them
3) Put the fear of god into them
4) Make them fear for the rest of their lives in their own homes
5) Steal things that do not belong to them.
If the law dealt sensibly with such people now there would be no need for such actions that now have to be taken. Instead we have thioeves that can sue the house owner for falling doWn the stairs WTF!! Mind you I don’t advocate they chase them down the road and bat them one as much as you might want too.
If this happened to me (and many others I might add)I would never be allowed to work away and leave my missus and kids alone again. That would destroy her it would destroy me, my career and our income on the spot and all for a stereo and an Xbox or similar?????. There is a cost way beyond the actual act of theft which affects ordinary people (the victim) but always seems to be missed here.
Labour Tough on crime tough on the causes of crime biggest laugh of all that.
Alanbrooke, a fair enough point about Trimble and Hume.
But are they among the people with whom Cameron is trying to do a deal in Northern Ireland?
And contariwise. Are the people with whom Cameron is setting up a deal people like Trimble and Home?
I still think most Northern Ireland Protestants are bigots.
Like Mrs Robinson.
570. Some are, see 568…
Late arriving this evening so am trying to catch up on the thread.
Wonderful typo in GJC’s post at 80 when discussing the ideal but unattainable composition of the Leaders Deabate audience:
…
d. children (yes/know)
…
Can we assume to assume about that an audience member who does not know whether he has children is “unaffiliated”?
572 correction
delete “to assume about” in second to last line.
Sorry, Rod, you lost me there. A bit too cryptic.
Are you saying that Ivan Cooper is discussing things with David Cameron?
569. As the article makes clear, the Tories are effectively proposing to bring back capital punishment for petty offences. And without all that pesky business of trials and juries.
The end of the recession removes the last excuse Gordon Brown has for sticking with next year’s reckless spending plans. The only reason now why the difficult decisions are being delayed until 2011 is that there is a general election in 2010.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7000847.ece
Unless of course Brown goes for a March 25th Election!
574. No, it was to demolish an outrageous falsehood by one of our contributors…
406 - “Harman thinks that parenting skills are all about income”
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5728383/harman-thinks-that-parentingskills-areall-about-income.thtml
Very insulting to a lot of people as Harman often is. My grandparents lived on a council estate and didn’t have much money but did a good job as parents without having a big income.
I don’t think that anyone is in a position to be certain either way, and I doubt if the inquiry will be able to be certain either.
by Nick Palmer MP January 24th, 2010 at 10:35 pm
I largely agree.
BUT, and it is a perfectly HUGE one.
However this last statement coming from a sitting MP is quite astounding. This is a public inquiry. What is the point of it, if it can’t be certain? It could be certain without any shadow of any doubt whatsoever if the enquiry could be assured that the major players were telling the truth. It can not, therefore its findings are going to be no better or useful, then the personal opinion of my current tea-lady.
ASTOUNDING truly ASTOUNDING, although to be honest not at all because it is surprising to myself, or because of the fact that Ministers lie through their teeth, with the full and justifiable confidence that they will completely get away with doing so.
No what is astounding is that you Mr Palmer seem to feel no shame and are not surprised. While still remaining part of the government that has brought us to this state of affairs.
Illegal or legal are very strange terms to use, when what we are really talking about is state sanctioned MURDER.
The ONLY moral justification for which in a democracy can only EVER be self-defence. If we can not prove beyond any shadow of any doubt whatsoever that we acted in self defence and self defence ONLY, then yourself as well as all of your war mongering chums, including the TORY ones, should be HUNG as soon as due process can be completed.
You and the rest of you are worse the Saddam and his lot of criminal psycho’s on a dad hair day.
You can not start a WAR without the other side striking first. This is how the western world has justified all past wars going back as far as 100 years or more.
We waited until Hitler had successfully invaded 3 other countries before embarking on WW2, and for a very good reason. If this or any other democratic country goes to war without GOOD and MORAL reason then in some part we all become war criminals and fully deserve gods and our enemies retribution. You and your government have brought spiritual and material danger to myself and my family. For that you can burn in hell, without the slightest sympathy from any right thinking individual.
SHAME? Quite frankly I really do not understand how you types of people sleep at nights. There again you have to be a potential murderer, with the morals of a greedy whore, and the intelligence of a over promoted sheep, to want to be an MP’ in the first place.
566. If the burglars have done nothing wrong, they have nothing to fers - to quote a phrase.
566. If the burglars have done nothing wrong, they have nothing to fers - to quote a phrase.
The impact of the recession on unemployment is deeper than headline figures suggest, a report suggests.
The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development (CIPD) say that 1.3 million people were made redundant during the recession.
The study says that is double the fall in employment and equivalent to 4.4% of people in work before the downturn.
It also says that two-thirds of people made redundant were paid 28% less when they managed to find another job.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8477687.stm
579. Quite so
568. Rod, big fucking deal. You pick one man in a party of thousands.
Where does 90% of the SDLP vote come from? Catholics & Nationalists. Where does more than 90% of their membership come from? Catholics & Nationalists.
Its manifesto is nationalist.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, its a duck.
If you take that view then Sir John Gorman means that the UUP is not a strongly Protestant and Unionist Party,..Billy Leonard means that Sinn Fein is not Catholic & nationalist.
There isnt anyoner in thsi countrym who doesnt think that the SDLP isnt a strongly Nationalist & Catholic party, not even the party itself.
So now that I have made a dick out of you go bother someone else with your wasted interventions.
God youve just exposed yourself as ignorant.
568. Rod, I’ve told you once before about acting like a total spoon but lets dismantle this one just one more time for fun.
You pick one man in a party of thousands.
Where does 90% of the SDLP vote come from? Catholics & Nationalist communities. Where does 98%+ their membership come from? Catholics & Nationalists communities.
Its manifesto is nationalist. Havent you read it or do you actually pay any attention to politics at all?
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, its a duck.
If you take that view then Sir John Gorman means that the UUP is not a strongly Protestant and Unionist Party..Billy Leonard means that Sinn Fein is not Catholic & Nationalist party. yet again though no one thinks that of either.
There isnt anyone in this country who doesnt think that the SDLP isnt a strongly Nationalist & Catholic party, not even the party itself.
Rod you are just like one of those lil schoolboys who thinks hes awful clever and likes to tweak noses.
But they get their noses broken in full view of others.
Do I make myself clear?
584. So I guess you withdraw the words “sectarian… and strongly Catholic.”
Ta
585. Youve been caught out and everyone here sees it.
What are the latest odds for Broxtowe? Thanks.
I made an amusing error in the comments section on this Newspaper article. When I read it I had to look twice in disbelief. The first time I have got a swear word in a national paper!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6999707.ece
Here Rod how does it feel to look stupid thanks your failure to do any research?
Does it remind you of being bullied at school?
I bet it does Rod, I bet it does.
Nighty night.
582
Without any doubt, the headline figures are bad, but they hide more then they reveal.
Added to all of that, is the amount of people still holding on to a job while working either no overtime, or on reduced hours or indeed days. Many in my industry are self employed. Not only has their amount of work dropped considerably, but the rate for the work has also dropped. Some are simply getting by with increased tax credits, and hoping for the best. This can not and will not go on for much longer, and we all can’t start becoming taxi drivers.
Now we are seeing the true reason why Gordon Brown brought in his otherwise incredibly stupid system of tax credits. HE KNEW exactly what was coming, when, and why. Tax credits were simply a method by which he could stave off the prospect of mass starvation and far larger unemployment figures, when the inevitable shit hit the proverbial fan.
There are now far more people relying on state benefits simply to pay basic bills and feed themselves then not, or at any time in this countries history. This actually means that we have more people economically inactive or wholly government dependant for there very survival, then we did at the worst times during the 1930’s depression, by quite some considerable margin.
There are now 3 things that are inevitable. DEATH TAXES and cruelly miss-leading government statistics
586. au contraire - you have, more than you can see…
Nationalism and Republicanism have never equated with sectarianism (let alone Catholicism), but Unionism, sadly, frequently has been associated with Protestant sectarianism…
Henry Grattan
Wolfe Tone
Parnell
Erskine Childers
Casement
Douglas Hyde (first president of Eire)
all Protestants, all top Nationalists or Republicans…
and Ivan Cooper, who wasn’t just anybody, but a founder of the SDLP….
589. It’ll take someone of a higher calibre than you to ever make me look stupid, or bullied… See 591.
Dozens of town halls and hundreds of schools plan to spend up to £10,000 a year each on a filter that removes comments on videos and related films. It allows teachers to recommend video content to be placed in a library for other schools with the software to access.
Hundreds of schools and 30 local authorities are in talks to buy the filter, which costs between £2,500 and £10,000 a year depending on the number of computers being used. At least 60 councils already use the other web filtering services on offer.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/school_league_tables/article7000627.ece
Somebody is making a pretty penny out of some fairly simple software. Upto £10k a pop! Sounds like the kind of project the people behind those bomb detectors on Newsnight the other day would flog!
590. John Galt January 25th, 2010 at 1:06 am
Indeed - the governments record is shambolic, dreadful and a distortion at every level.
I have just seen this in the Daily Mail:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245798/Gordon-Brown-fights-jobs-pledge-Government-confidence-grows-end-recession.html
Gordon Brown and Labour live in cloud cockoo land if they think they have done anything to help people in the recession. I find it pathetic the way Brown and Labour only wnat to take credit for growth but recession is nothing to do with them!
Utterley pathetic and if they think that swing voters by into that message they are misleading themselves.
591. And let us not forget a recent head of the IRA!
A Londoner of Protestant extraction…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_MacStiofain
(birth name John Stephenson)
I rest my case….
Obama spoke to a group of sixth graders (twelve year olds), but didn’t want to risk it without the aid of his ubiquitous teleprompter:
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/01/sad-obama-brings-teleprompter-to-speak-to-6th-grade-class/
Exceptions rod do not prove the rule. 98% of support for the SDLP is from catholics.
As someone with a mixed religion family in Northern Ireland (Strabane actually) I have had many discussions with both sides of the family and am comfortable that yokel’s percentage is on the money.
There are a few people of protestant descent who want Northern Ireland to become part of Ireland as a whole, but the peer pressure about the Queen and loyalty and patriotism to the flag an “yer own” means that they are going to be very quiet about it.
*** Rod, I should add family is my daughter.***
597. “98% of support for the SDLP is from catholics.”
I don’t doubt that, (how could I, given my proven knowledge of the history of Ireland
?) but that does NOT equate to Yokel’s outrageous lie that it is “sectarian .. or strongly Catholic..”
Republicanism and Nationalism has never been a sectarian political movement. The Brits have hanged enough Protestant Nationalists/Republicans that even the dimmest northern Unionist can see that, surely?
the pb forum never fails to make me laugh and to inform me — from tim being “sinbinned” for whelching, to Obama using a telepromper to adress a class of 10 years old. Hilariously pathetic.
A President is less likely to want to debate than a challenger; a President has more to lose. The great worry over past debates was the fear that cosmetics would determine the election.
36. Johnno - The rule should be the same as for lost deposits. The leader appears if the party gets more than 5% of the vote.