Have we become immune to this sort of stuff?
March 20th, 2010
“….Byers, who held three cabinet portfolios from 1998 to 2002, gave specific examples of how he claimed he had changed government policy by lobbying his cabinet friends.
He claimed to have struck a secret deal with Lord Adonis, the transport secretary, last year on behalf of National Express, which he said was seeking to jettison a loss-making East Coast rail franchise without penalties. Byers said: “We agreed with Andrew … he would be publicly very critical of National Express” as long as he agreed terms which favoured the company. The decision to terminate the franchise in July last year left a burden on the taxpayer of hundreds of millions of pounds…..
” - Sunday Times Insight team
MessageSpace Advertising
Not First?
Yes, sadly.
Not immune, but weary.
Also, the referee for the England game was a prick.
Um ….yes
The quicker Brown and his furniture leaves Downing Street the better
broken scabby tories on the slide.
“Polls still point to a hung parliament”
“The Tories are still not on course to win the general election outright, as two more opinion polls pointed to a hung Parliament.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7489911/Polls-still-point-to-a-hung-parliament.html
Well done that was quick
we should not be immune !
clock still ticking for the boys down at the BBC website - they are not immune they just dont like the story because it implicates the wrong team
clock ticking BBC Boys how long will it take ? we know you are reading this ….
3 - Morris Dancer I hope you have seen that Clegg did not limit his murdering spree to cacti but also took out a roadrunner.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/nick-clegg/7489719/Im-not-as-fortunate-as-Samantha-Cameron-says-Miriam-Clegg.html
Yep. Likely to swing as many votes as the SNP will in Westminster, ie none.
FPT
@211 @237
Cash for Access.. why am I not surprised. :roll.
Incidently the link at 211 isn’t working any more.
by Kristin March 20th, 2010 at 10:01 pm
7 - Probably still waiting on the government spin to be faxed through.
3 - Harsh but fair.
Any SNP posters on here I can taunt about being excluded from the debates ?
Cash for Honours
Cash for Legislation
I look forward to the Guardian going after them as strongly as they (quite rightly) did against the dying days with the detrius of the Tory back benches.
8, she can’t claim to just be married to Clegg and not be a political wife and then run around giving vaguely bitchy interviews. Hypocrite.
FPT - 214 - NPMP - “Stuart, your earlier post was mistaken in saying that the Swedish leader ratings showed Sahlin only has 11% support among her own voters.”
No, I was not “mistaken”. I explicitly stated that the figures were Net. And I simply copied the figures straight out of today’s Dagens Nyheter:
http://tinyurl.com/y88a6bv
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/valet2010/s-valjarna-tror-inte-pa-mona-sahlin-1.1064630
I once stayed in a Greek holiday complex that had a donkey on the site. It was tethered to a post, by the rubbish bins, and generally kept itself to itself, most of the time.
But occasionally, for no apparent reason, it would start shaking and snorting and hooting and then it would angrily orgasm, all over the leftover moussaka. Then it would go back to staring dolefully at the empty ouzo bottles.
Mark Senior reminds me strongly of that sad, ejaculating donkey.
Betting Alert.
Put your money on Liverpool winning tomorrow. It has been nearly 3 years since I last saw Liverpool lost a match, which I attended.
And I’m Old Strap On tomorrow.
It sounds like a matter that certainly should be investigated.
18 - Last line should read.
And I’m at Old Strap On tomorrow.
15 - It wasn’t vague, it was a full on claws out jobby. Totally unedifying.
7 point lead will not give us a hung parliament. In reality it will give a small majority
Odd - the story link doesn’t work. Come on Gabble condemn your PLP for corruption…
So who will go first…Gordon or Rafa ?
FPT - 193 - Seth O. Logue - “… scrapping the wee pretendy Parliament in Holyrood?”
Go ahead punks: make our day!
Unionists advocating the abolition of the Scottish Parliament - returning Scotland to the status quo ante - is an SNP wet dream.
Hence FM Dave’s pleading about how he supports Scottish devolution (ahem) “heart and soul” (sic).
Yes. Press stories such as this have far less influence than journalists who write them would like to believe.
24 - Gordon.
MP’s caught by sleaze sting
Senior MPs and former cabinet ministers have been caught up in a sting operation exposing the way companies can buy political influence.
Stephen Byers was filmed telling actors posing as potential employers that he would be a valuable addition to their company because of his position. Stephen Byers, Patricia Hewitt, Geoff Hoon and Baroness Morgan were among those targeted by an undercover operation by the Channel 4 Dispatches programme, which used a fake lobbying firm to offer MPs cash to use their position to help various businesses.
Conservative MPs were also featured on the programme including Julie Kirkbride, who declined to take the bogus firm up on its offer.
Mr Byers, a leading former Blairite minister, was filmed telling actors posing as potential employers that he would be a valuable addition to their company because of his position. He was later so worried about what he had said that he sent an email claiming he had “exaggerated”.
A Labour source said its MPs were “mortified at being so stupid”.
Many had rung the firm in the days following the sting and told them that “any comments they made had been lies and stupid exaggeration”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/7489046/MPs-caught-by-sleaze-sting.html
21, must confess I skimmed it after Mrs. Clegg mentioned the fact she can’t give up work for five weeks due to being an impoverished lawyer.
16 - fair enough, Stuart - I must have missed the “net” in your post. Sorry about that.
20 - I’m glad you cleared that up given your reputation.
Why would stories like this surprise anyone? This is more of the same, Labour have been behaving like this since they first took office. What is surprising is that a third of the population don’t care enough to vote for someone else.
FPT 216 oldnat
Salmond is as overweight as the country he leads. He should be leaving Maw Broon’s cookbook on the library shelves and looking for a publication that can provide dietary advice.
He needs to make the transition from populist outsider to responsible statesman.
Does he think his health and fitness will improve by watching his neighbours exercise and diet from the comfort of his sofa?
17 Did you find the donkey cheaper/better than a Greek woman or just something you ought to try once in your life ?
Did Nick Clegg vote for the Natural Law Party?
From that article about Mrs Clegg it has this in it
“He (Clegg) said that at that time he had also been a devotee of transcendental meditation, but that he had not done it for the past 15 years”
29 - yes that was a tad hilarious. She also stole Cleggy off one of her friends. So presumably that was one of the 30.
Odd - the story link doesn’t work.
by SthLondon Nick March 20th, 2010 at 10:09 pm
I still have the page up.. here’s a snapshot
A FORMER Labour cabinet minister has boasted about how he used his government contacts to change policies in favour of businesses.
Stephen Byers, former trade and transport secretary, was secretly recorded offering himself “like a sort of cab for hire” for up £5,000 a day. He also suggested bringing Tony Blair to meet clients.
He was among several politicians recorded by an undercover reporter posing as a company executive looking to hire MPs for lobbying work.
The others included:
- Patricia Hewitt, a former health secretary, who claimed she helped to obtain a key seat on a government advisory group for a client paying her £3,000 a day.
- Geoff Hoon, the former defence secretary, offered to lead delegations to ministers and told the reporter that he was looking to turn his knowledge and contacts into “something that frankly makes money”. He said he charged £3,000 a day.
- Margaret Moran, the Luton MP who was forced to pay back £22,500 in expenses, boasted that she could ring a “girls’ gang” of colleagues on behalf of clients. Among those she named were: Jacqui Smith, the former home secretary; Hazel Blears, the former communities secretary; and Harriet Harman, the deputy leader of the Labour party.
The cash ( £ 000 per day ) for influence story is being reported widely now across political web sites but not all ….
One of the reasons why I believe that a hung parliament is not only now a probability, but hopefully a reality, is that it would be poetic justice.
Who knows the upheaval that would follow, might create something, you could have some confidence in.
25
Seem to remember that Dave is now saying devolution is a good thing because it will prevent independence. That was of course Labour’s mantra when they introduced it, don’t remember a single Tory supporting that point of view at the time.
Smeary Unite funded, concrete chucking Gobble - Links, spins and lies.
25 Stuart Dickson
I am sure Dave supports devolution. It’s just that he will want to devolve both power and responsibility. And if there is no one there to take both on, well he’ll just have to do it himself.
The punk!
36 - Mrs Eagles will tell you there is nothing wrong with stealing one of your friends boyfriends.
33 Seth O. Logue
You are treading on dangerous ground. If IainM says his Mum is from Dundee - watch out!
36. The phrase ‘come in number 31, your time is up’ springs to mind.
42 - Hmm.
34
Hey SeanT is Cornish he can’t have a relationship with a donkey unless its a blood relative.
Budget 2010: David Cameron prepares for 48-hour trench warfare
Labour’s last-ditch Budget will herald an artillery battle over Britain’s future, writes Matthew D’Ancona.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/budget/7489244/Budget-2010-David-Cameron-prepares-for-48-hour-trench-warfare.html
There is an imbalance in perception.
Last night there was a spat on here about a ball gown vs under-funded wars. Of course the ball gown thing matters.
44 -
Typical bloody Labour.
not the first time Labour been caught at this is it…..
This should be a huge story. The hugeness depends if they have caught any Tories doing anything as bad.
If it is all or mainly Labour then it could be destructive for the government.
But if there are confusing issues and implicated Tories it will be “they’re all the same” etc etc
45 - She’d also say there’s nothing right about it.
And she does blame me 100% for it, and not her fault.
48 AnneJGP
I’m concerned that you are linking a ball gown with cash for access!
I didn’t think you would know of such things!
52 - well there is that I suppose.
Ex-Cabinet ministers embroiled in new cash for influence scandal
After a Parliament mired by the MPs’ Expenses scandal and allegations of cash for honours, the Sunday Times is tomorrow running a story which will be less than comfortable reading for several former Cabinet ministers who are leaving the Commons at the impending election
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/leftwatch/2010/03/excabinet-ministers-embroiled-in-new-cash-for-influence-scandal-.html
39 Yes a hung parliament would force some MPs to drop the ridiculous point-scoring and exaggeration of party differences that characterises Westiminster politics. Definitely a step forward.
34. Mark, that was nearly funny. Better than yer usual superannuated switherings, anyway.
56 - no it wouldn’t it would make it far far worse.
54 - It was a tortured 3 years before we finally became an item.
In another era, I would have been repeatedly horsewhipped on so many occasions.
51 - SeanT, the Telegraph article does claim a Tory agreed to do it. If true, then he/she needs to go…
FPT 218, Stuart the problem is that the Conservatives have a pact with the UUP and are putting up candidates in all constituencies in NI, 8 more of whom were announced today. The pact with the DUP is in your imagination.
The usual policy of the DUP is not to bring down a UK government, be it Labour or Tory, from which Labour have benefitted in the recent past. No doubt Cameron hopes the same will apply if his majority is under threat. But this does not imply a pact; any more than Labour had a pact with the DUP.
59 - Well it all worked out in the end.
53 oldnat, I don’t know about such things.
I couldn’t articulate what I wanted to say, so I just left it at that.
And to think in the dim and distant past all the uproar cos a few Tory MP’s took some cash to ask a question in parliament. Compared to past 13 years now seems oh so minor!
56. There’s no evidence for that assertion. If it were indeed even desirable. There’s nothing wrong with partisanship.
43 oldnat
Are you suggesting I am a “dangerous, double-dealing, oily-tongued adventurer”?
@60 - agreed, but are all the targetted MP’s not stepping down anyway ?
60 All the MP’s approached are standing down:
Then they invited 13 Labour and seven Tory figures — all of whom are standing down at the next election — to meet at its pretend London HQ. Those who accepted were told the company planned to expand in the UK and wanted “people with influence” to head up its lobbying team.
http://blogs.notw.co.uk/politics/2010/03/exministers-byers-hewitt-and-hoon-caugh-in-cash-sting.html
O/T - Sunday Live on Sky…
“On tomorrow’s show and a first for Sunday Live - the Foreign Secretary David Miliband goes head-to-head with his Conservative counterpart, William Hague.
It’s Sky’s Foreign Editor, Tim Marshall presenting tomorrow’s show so he’s on safe ground with those two.
Scotland is not quite foreign enough for Tim, however, and I’ve spent my afternoon preparing a briefing document for his interview with Scotland’s First Minister, Alex Salmond MSP. Salmond’s a wily one, incredibly deft at dodging a difficult question. Tim had better get swotting.
Paper reviewers are the award-winning author and journalist, Janine di Giovanni and the broadcaster Nick Ferrari.”
59, *sighs* I often think I’d be more at home in a more old-fashioned era.
That say, the ultimate futility of human endeavour beneath the crushing certainty of entropic power and the destined heat death of the universe does make that a rather moot point.
64, but that was a Conservative, Oracle, and hence a crime akin to necrobestiality.
65 - Indeed Jed Bartlet makes that point in the debate episode of Season 4 of West Wing.
IMHO standards of behaviour have fallen across the board, MPs are selected from the population at large, of course MPs’ standards of behaviour have fallen as well.
Responding to the thread question it is a bit of a damp squib simply because those involved are all standing down. It has no potency because all those caught up in the sting will no longer be MP’s in a couple of months or so…..
Mike it should be a huge story. The next move will be to announce an investigation and then it gets kicked into the long grass.
BBC News 24 does not have it in its main news headlines. But then these MPs are not Conservatives so the BBC sees no scandal ……
We now have Neil interviewing Caroline Lucas, which might be fun.
Lucas has moved from opposing nukes because they were going to end the world, to opposing Carbon… because it is going to err end the world…
The trouble is that we’ve all now come to expect the Labour Party to be corrupt - and worse we’ve reached the point where we also always expect them to get away with being corrupt too. Wailing and stamping about it all just wastes energy and effort - which is sad, of course, but that’s how it is.
re43 oldnat
He is indeed on dangerous ground and I strongly advise him to keep his address secret! My mother is very useful with a rolling pin and has a very excellent aim with a frying pan as my father found out to his cost once when he spent all of his weeks wages on a dead cert at Cheltenham!
My mother has no time for any man who does not have a healthy appetite. She does not share Seths opinion of Mr Salmond! Might disagree with Mr Salmonds politics but not his love for Scottish recipes!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1259485/Top-Labour-MPs-trapped-TV-sting.html
mail carrying the story aswell
68 - Fair enough. But the whip should go and party membership revoked. Until politicians face consequences then nothing will change.
77 - Looks like the Conservatives smelt a rat.
In relation to the actual article. Remove him from his scrotum!
77 According to the MOS the Conservatives didn’t fall for it.
The Conservatives are congratulating themselves on a lucky escape over the lobbygate ‘sting’.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1259485/Top-Labour-MPs-trapped-TV-sting.html#ixzz0il8XBWul
However looking at the names in the frame, whilst possibly being a little embarrassing for Labour, given they all seem to be Blairites or those shamed already, I imagine Brown may well have a chuckle over it at breakfast tomorrow. In fact could this have been thought up in the bunker?
@77 - from that article
Aides to Gordon Brown say they are most concerned by Ms Moran’s interview in the Dispatches programme, due to be broadcast tomorrow.
They have been warned that she can be heard promising to help modify laws on immigration in order to boost the business interests of the fake company.
One senior Labour source said last night that Ms Moran was ‘not very well’ and anything she said should ‘not be taken seriously… the idea that she has the ability to influence anything is laughable’.
Zippy/Baldemort does it again
The Government chauffeur of a Treasury Minister involved in preparing Wednesday’s Budget has quit after an embarrassing row over the Minister’s missing wallet.
Experienced driver Howard Rose walked out after Treasury Chief Secretary Liam Byrne became convinced that he had lost his wallet in his new, top-of-the-range Jaguar.
The Mail on Sunday was told that Mr Rose, who is in his late 40s, was asked repeatedly if he could find the wallet. After stating that it was not in the car, it is understood, he felt he had been treated unfairly.
According to some reports, Mr Byrne contacted Mr Rose directly and asked him if he could locate his wallet. It is understood that, at this point, he felt that the finger of blame was being unfairly pointed at him.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1259472/Chauffeur-quits-row-lost-wallet-Minister-dubbed-Baldemort.html
81 - The Telegraph says… “However, embarrassingly for the Tories, a second Conservative MP is believed to have fallen for the stunt and agreed to work for the bogus company. ”
I suspect this is a forces of hell operation.
78. It would be more effective if they lost their golden parachute…..
With regard to the polls today I can’t see the Tories not getting a majority with a 6/7% lead. The labour core vote will turn out in places where it is not needed and the Tories will win the seats they need, like Andy C predicts.
Stuart Dickson
The DUP is no longer dominated by the religious front. Yes its still a large block but in fact the DUP is more controlled by its conventional politicos and UUP defectors. The DUP’s growth was entirely at the UUP’s expense with the voters as well.
The DUP is very different from where it was even 10 years ago. This is deliberate. When Donaldson crossed decked he and Robinson sought to build a conventional centre right party. The sheer number of ex-UUP wonks in the policy and strategy units has had an effect.
Secondly the Labour Party doesnt have much issue asking the DUP if they’d like to help out after May either.
Truth is the DUP are pragmatists and play that kind of politics very well indeed. This is why there is no guarantee of a formal pact post election, if its required.
Some in the Conservatives threw a huge weight into the UUP after the DUP voted with the government on the detention issue. In short they took the hump, reflecting the ridiculous reaction of many Tories on here at the time.
This took what was a more cautious, but building, working relationship with the UUP and accelerated it, with the wrong motivations. In fact they should have just kept moving quietly as they were as it was and still is on Cameron’s part a well intentioned move.
I warned on here at the time of the detention vote that the hysterical Tory reaction was a joke and that they should be careful about how they took the DUPs move.
Sadly some in the Tory hierarchy didn’t.
66 Seth O. Logue
Heaven forfend! But by attributing obesity to all in Scotland, you also included ChristinaD and marcia.
That might make you an adventurer - or simply stupid!
NOTW on ICM:
http://blogs.notw.co.uk/politics/2010/03/cameron-stalls-in-latest-news-of-the-world-poll.html
76 IainM
I am the politest of guests and am always willing to try any delicacy offered me. But then my blood pressure and waistline are not suitable for running a country in a recession.
I would however stick to home cooking when in Dundee. To continue the reference from my previous post to oldnat:
“In a letter home to his wife, Clementine, from the Queen’s Hotel[, Dundee] in 1909, [Winston Churchill] wrote: “Yesterday morning I had half-eaten a kipper when a huge maggot crept out & flashed his teeth at me! Today I could find nothing nourishing for lunch but pancakes. Such are the trials which great & good men endure in the service of their country!”.
Does the Queen’s Hotel still maintain such a high standard of customer service?
Oh dear could Tony be taking hooky cash?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1259496/Boss-Korean-firm-gave-Tony-Blair-secret-cash-jailed-bribery.html
84. What do you expect it’s written by the Kitewitch. Accuracy and the Kitewitch are seldom acquaintances.
Don’t expect this to even be reported. Brown lying to Chilcott, the House of commons and the public in an intervirew was killed within hours by the BBC.
Same will happen this time and the next time and the time after that. Now if it were a Tory there would be wall to wall coverage already we all know it so why even bother keeping up the pretence anymore?
84. There was a piece on Guido Fawkes’ blog earlier today that included a passing reference to such revelations in tomorrow’s papers.
I went back to check if this was the story referred to - and the article has now gone!
Guido only mentioned one name though, and that was a Conservative MP.
Legal intervention, perhaps?
87 Yokel
Seems to me that those who are thirled to Westminster parties, need to understand that parties which aren’t London based have their own agendas for their own communities - and that these are actually more important than playing some Westminster game.
@81:
Labour MPs in thick and gullible shocker?
90 Seth
It’s now a Best Western Hotel. I would not wish to comment!
http://www.queenshotel-dundee.com/
I heard about this expose several days ago (I forget where). Its strange its only now being run as the main story and being run by so many of the newspapers seemingly? Why didn’t the daily’s pick it up? Also I do find it interesting that Hoon, Byers and Hewitt are the headliners.
Is this payback for the last coup against Gordo?
So Clegg will be on television.
I wonder if he will be asked why he thinks £30 is enough money for a pensioner to live on and why he thinks shopping st Sainsburys is going downmarket?
95. Absolutely.
I’m a strong supporter of UK parties getting their hands dirty in politics here, especially since they insist that everything is great here except for a few loons on the fringes.
@98 - I’m sure conhome ran something on this a week or so ago.
Re 98 And perhaps a way to bury the bad news of the strike?
99 - Hope he has learned what the various levels of the minimum wage are too!
Sundays are up:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Sunday-National-Newspapers-Papers-Sunday-March-21-2010/Media-Gallery/201003315578265?lpos=UK_News_Left_Promo_Region_0&lid=GALLERY_15578265_Sunday_National_Newspapers_Papers_Sunday_March_21_2010
Interesting that Moran has time to investigate money-making opportunities but is unable to represent her constituents.
re90 Seth
I had to endure worse in the Royal Marines Seth, believe you me! I am also not sure of some of the substances that passed my lips when I was at Glasgow University in my youth! I have heard my mother preaching about the nourishing qualities of a certain delicacy that she called guga! You really dont want to know about that!
Wonder what happened to the big Charlie Whelan story?
89: The secondaries are interesting - I wonder if there are party differences in the 22% who say the Budget could influence them. Fairly even balance on UNITE, but the demand for tax cuts or neutrality will discourage those in, cough, all parties who feel some rises are needed.
From the US:
According to CNN, apparently 32 Dems are currently on the no slate for the Healthcare votes.
6 more are needed.
Thats 6 that the GOP need rather than can afford to lose. Why should be able to find 6 more at this stage?
91. JB
You mean apart from the money he gets from J P Morgan?
re 6 Gabble consider UNS. It says that the Tories need 11%+ for an overall majority. Just think of that in historical terms. Only 2 parties in 17 elections since the war have had that sort of lead - Labour in 1997 and Tory in 1983.
If we go with this UNS logic it means that the Tories can perhaps win a majority once in the next 70 years. That is such a ludicrous proposition that it’s amazing that there are so many proponents on UNS out there.
97 - the Queens Hotel has a chequered history, when it was built the owners thought it was where the Caledonian Railway station was going to be built. Wrong, it went further east to be nearer the Ferry terminal.
107. Oracle - Probably still investigating it…..
104. Fluffy - I see that the Indy On Sunday has gone for an S&M pic on their front page. Mind you reading all AGW propaganda is about as tortuous as bondage….
104 - Look pretty bad for HMG from what I can see.
75 King P of P, Parliament has become a cess-pit, reflecting our society back at us. We don’t know right from wrong any longer.
113 “Mind you reading all AGW propaganda is about as tortuous as bondage….”
Yet another person who clearly has no understanding of what the word ‘tortuous’ actually means…
Despite the headline this would be a bonus for the Conservatives. |it suggests there is still a 9.5% swing from Lab to Con in the North. In which case what is happening in the Midlands and South?
Tories still struggling in the north and Scotland
The study, based on polling data from the past three months, found that the narrow 4-point lead enjoyed by the Tories in September has been wiped out, leaving the party neck-and-neck with Labour.
It’s worth pointing out that this still represents a huge swing to the Conservatives — Labour’s lead at the last election was 19 points.
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2010/03/tories-scotland-party-north#reader-comments
Has anyone got anymore detail about FT study?
116 - Clearly you have no understanding of bondage.
Not speaking form experience, ahem, bondage is full of twists, turns, or bends.
Adjectives you can describe to some of the interpretation of the climate data.
@108 Nick Palmer MP March 20th, 2010 at 11:02 pm
Yes, cough indeed. Dind’t you say the other week you wanted us to be like Denmark ? Which incidentally has the highest rates of tax in the world ?
37 £3000 a day for Geoff Hoon? That’s hilarious. What does he do for that amount of money? Knock off a couple of zeros and you might be closer to the mark.
Quite a few of these ex-ministers and MP’s are in for a very nasty surprise, and empty wallets when they leave parliament.
117.”Senior Tories concede the party is likely at best to pick up only two or three more Scottish seats. “They’ve more or less had to write off Scotland,” Peter Kellner, president of pollsters YouGov, said.”
Very interesting.
121. Christina D, I get the feeling that Scottish Conservatives would not be overly disappointed with that outcome?
re121 Christina
Where is your exact source for that Christina?
118. TSE Indeed some of the AGW data is very ‘flexible’…
It twists and turns like a twisty turny thing
122 jsfl
I believe Easterross on a good morning looks forward to eleven seats.
Are we are witnessing expectations management here?
I suspect it will be neither the high road nor the low road.
121. I can’t imagine what sort of democratic mandate the Tories are going to claim vis a vis Scotland with such a support base. Two seats at best? It would certainly put the myths surrounding the West Lothian Question into their proper perspective.
I’m not sure the “Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale Question”, concerning the Conservative’s alien majority being imposed on Scotland, has quite the same ring to it.
122.jsfl, I wouldn’t be disappointed with four seats, but I would be happier with 4-6, anymore would be akin to winning the lottery.
But no one has written off Scotland, quite the reverse, the rebuilding of the party from the grassroots upwards only really started in 2007. Its got a long way to go yet, but we have the GE this year and Holyrood next year, lets see if all the hardwork starts to produce results.
122 jsfl
I suspect they would be over the moon!
I keep saying that Scottish polling is so sparse that it’s difficult to get a handle on what is likely to happen here in terms of seats, but it is entirely possible that the Tories could gain none, and lose their only current seat.
The 2005 election in Scotland was fought on new boundaries and that makes tactical voting more problematical - there are only estimates for what political character a seat might have, as you are about to be reminded of.
2005 Result - Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale
Con 36.2% : Lab 32.3% : LD 20.3% : SNP 9.1%
All that we do know from the polls here is that the LD vote has dropped significantly and has gone to SNP and Lab more than Con. It would take a very small tactical vote to oust Mundell and return Scotland to Tory free status.
Re 117 Here’s the original FT article and it has the usual nonsense from Kellner throughout:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bcd76ee2-3135-11df-8e6f-00144feabdc0.html#
117 It’s linked from the New Statesman blog
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bcd76ee2-3135-11df-8e6f-00144feabdc0.html#
clock ticking BBC Boys how long will it take ? we know you are reading this ….
by morgan March 20th, 2010 at 10:03 pm
front page Ticker on the BBC just updated and still not a peep on this story. In Brown Broadcasting Company land nothing happening in the news tonight all quiet on the home front.
Move along please nothing to see here. So predictable.
125. Seth
Are we are witnessing expectations management here?
No it’s Kellner and his crystal balls once more….
Story covered by Sky on Newspaper review.
126 Grandstander
Are you suggesting that if the Conservatives get no seats in Manchester they would have no mandate to govern in or over the city?
Or if the UUP & Conservatives fail to get a seat in NI the province should be ceded to the Republic?
What mandate have Labour had to rule over the South East of England in the last 13 years?
Scotland have the benefit of devolution. If the SNP’s leader did a little less grandstanding and showed a bit more political maturity, the relationship between Cameron and Salmond might well turn out to be beneficial to the inhabitants of both sides of the border.
“Move along please nothing to see here.”
Well, it doesn’t involve Ashcroft, so it’s not actual corruption.
And Labour bringing Big Brother to you:
A webpage for every citizen as Labour plans paperless society
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1259354/Thousands-jobs-axed-Government-plans-public-service-webpage-citizen.html?ITO=1490#ixzz0ilO5spJ5
And they know what they can do with their web page!
Insight article up…
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7069795.ece
re 127 and Christina what started the rebuilding? The fact that there are many more Scottish councillors than there were, and the fact that there are Scottish MSPs at all. Of course none of this would have been possible under FPTP.
Usual standards that we come to expect from HM Government! Nothing more to say really.
So more wobbly bottom time for those as I shall call them from now on - UNS Tories. They really haven’t got a clue about voting dynamics under FPTP have they (?!), oh well they share the same cluelessness as Gideon on the economy I suppose.
OT - have yougov changed their front page?
http://today.yougov.co.uk/
Handy links to political trackers etc.
126. Grandstander..Well what sort of mandate would Labour have in Kent (and other counties perhaps in the south too) which is likely to become a Labour free zone? Can we become seperatists and unilaterally renounce the Labour Government?
131 Moses, a little early yet - the BBC news team aren’t generally first with any stories.
Someone upthread suggested this story might have originated with the Forces of Hell - if so, it will certainly turn up on the BBC, won’t it?
See what I did there?
I could name MPs from all parties who act as lobbyists for firms, nothing new here. However Adonis is as honest as they come. Still only 6% ICM lead, this assertion does not deflect from that fact, very worrying!
126.Its quite simple, its called democracy. We have a minority SNP government in Holyrood, and a Labour one in Westminster right now because both won the most seats. If the Conservatives win the most seats and form the next goverment of the UK with a majority, or as a minority government, they have as much right to do so as the SNP to be in power in Holyrood. Now we have devolved government in Scotland, the argument that the Tories won’t have a democratic mandate to govern one part of the UK in particular gets ever more pathetic to be honest.
I really think that our political parties nearer home need to start getting their act together and concentrate on their own record of governance. At the moment its often forgetton that since 97′ we have had Labour, the Libdems and the SNP presiding over the growing mess of our public finances in Scotland.
I know that Alex Salmond tried to make himself the beef in the sandwich in his speech today. Stick up for Scotland, fight against public cuts, aye right. Leave the councils to take the hit for all the local decisions on budget cuts, make sure that the next British government is blamed for any cuts coming Scotland’s way, and avoid taking any Statesman like responsibility for the tough decisions yourself. Salmond is beginning to remind me of another politician who likes to blame everyone else for their own mistakes.
We have got Holyrood right now, and it should taking the lead, instead its trying to lean back onto Westminster at every opportunity while trying to hide behind its wee sister the councils. That is not how you promote Independence.
136 - ‘A Labour plans paperless society’
except in the loo I hope.
134. Exactly. Scotland has the benefit of devolution. Scotland resides in entirely different political unit to Manchester and all the other component rotten boroughs of England which all share the same common political unit. That is where the issue of mandate (or lack of) comes into play.
The Tories have shown little political maturity over the last 10 years towards Scotland. One very clear element of that is the common Tory refrain that their inability to garner votes in Scotland is down to some imagined innate characteristics of Scots rather than their own failures to makes themselves relevant and electable here. In the words of some modern teenyboppers. That’s epic fail.
I often think the best way to sink any Tory chances of advancement in Scotland is to release a compendium of Tory backbench vapourings on Scottish affairs over the last 13 years. I’m sure Hansard would be a veritable gold mine on that score.
116: You know that what is meant is tortuous as cooked pig’s intestine - i.e. tripe.
139 hunchman, you were doing quite well until you used the ‘G’ word. It normally marks one at as a poster to ignore. Never mind.
134 Seth O. Logue
The fact that you equate Manchester and Scotland does emphasise that you don’t really understand that Scottish politics is not just a difference in party affiliation, but that Scotland is a national political unit within the UK - Manchester is a city in England, like Glasgow is within Scotland.
From last year’s BBC/ICM poll - “Which of the following best describes how you feel about your national identity…”
Brit not Scot - 9%
More Brit than Scot - 4%
Equal Brit/Scot - 29%
More Scot than Brit - 31%
Scot not Brit - 26%
Identity is a critical issue here. It doesn’t necessarily correlate with voting intention, but unless you take into account that for 57% of Scots their primary identity is Scots, and that only 9% describe themselves as Brit only, then you will continue to fail to understand politics here.
#144 No Christina. The SNP had the largest share of the vote (by however modest a margin) and the most seats in Scotland. The Tories will have NEITHER in Scotland.
The only people who are abdicating any responsibility when it comes to Scotland’s governance are those who suggest Scotland should not be in control of its own economic affairs. That is the easiest way to tidy up the mess of devolution. Give Scotland full control of all taxes raised on Scottish territory. Surely anybody can see that is the most effective way forward. Even Tories.
What’s ‘Dave’ waiting for?
In all likelihood Scotland will be a side-show in this election and it’s electorate will be but observers to the battle in England and - to a lesser-degree - Wales. Get over it.
If Cammers needs SNP support he can throw them the prospect of limited fiscal-autonomy and/or job-protection for the banks owned by the English tax-payer. Trident and The Upper House are not within the remit of a party representing 700,000 of the UK’s electorate as the savings imagined will be absorbed by what is required to maintain and/or replace them within the UK economic and political entity.
The answer to OGH’s question is yes, sadly. Expenses knocked all other scandals for six.
I am somewhat suspicious that only Blairite and Tory troughers have been approached though. Why not Sion Simon and the like?
Labour govt decides wrong box ticking priority.
Result possibly hundreds dead
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7489663/Hundreds-may-have-died-in-999-ambulance-blunder.html
Found in an attic apparently, sexy new images of SamCam
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1259483/Glam-Cam-Move-Carla-Bruni-MoS-unveils-Samantha-supermodel.html
146 Grandstander
I fear you may have missed my point on political maturity.
Fortunately for Scotland and the United Kingdom, there are others of your political allegiance on pb.com who compensate for your shortcomings.
151 Fluffy Thoughts
Given the disparity in population between the nations of the UK, your comment is hardly an example of penetrating analysis!
However, I’m more than happy for you to take Trident south - and pay for its entire cost - oh and you can pay for your bishops as well!
Fairly even balance on UNITE,
by Nick Palmer MP March 20th, 2010 at 11:02 pm
There is spin and there is absurdity. The split is 48/ 39 against Unite.
154. Mon Dieu.
138.ChrisA, simple, David Cameron and Annabel Goldie.
Being a foot soldier in the North East of Scotland, I couldn’t be further away from Fraser Nelson, Tim Montgomery, Alex Massie or Alan Cochrane. I am also a fair distance form the political media luvvies in the Central belt too.
But I do know what it was like and how disorganised, demoralised and totally lacking in any kind of support from either the main party or the Scottish wing of it in 1997. And I know that despite all the shannigans and divisions in both the Holyrood and Westminster parties in the intervening period, no one seemed to care or give a thought to us at all. We were neglected. But neither Cameron or Goldie were supposed to elected as respective leaders in the last few years, and neithe were the choice of the ambitious right leaning Thatcherite wings of the party. But they were, and they both set about detoxing the party in their own indomnitable ways.
I know that Cameron came under intense pressure to finally cut the ties with the Scottish around 2007, and that there were factions in Scottish and English parties who pushed very hard for this. But Cameron and Goldie choose the opposite route, and decided not to give up on us, but to instead rebuild from the grass roots upwards. And I can honestly say that I have seen a tremendous improvement in the ground operation in the intervening three years. My only regret was that the boys and girls at the top choose to fight with each other instead of doing this a few years earlier.
Not expecting miricles overnight, but we have been out of power since 1997, we are the only party untainted by the current economic mess or the pain to come as a consequence. Its going to take time and real effort to rebuild our operation, but others have done it before us in Scotland. Indeed, the Libdems and then the SNP have benefitted hugely from the mistakes those in power have made when they become past their sale by date. Already those parties are looking to either make deals or try and make electoral hay out of the possibility of a Conservative government. They maybe need to look closer to home and their own record instead.
155.
Sorry Seth but that just doesn’t wash.
158 - Quite and I’m a disinterested observer of such things.
150.Granstander, Holyrood = Scotland, UK = Westminster. Add in a splash of democracy and we get what we vote for.
UP TO 95,000 descendants of the prophet Muhammad are planning to bring a libel action in Britain over “blasphemous” cartoons of the founder of Islam, even though they were published in the Danish press.
The defamation case is being prepared by Faisal Yamani, a Saudi lawyer acting for the descendants, who live in the Middle East, north Africa and as far afield as Australia.
Mark Stephens, a British lawyer who has seen a “pre-action” letter sent by Yamani to 10 Danish newspapers, said it “specifically says” he will launch proceedings in London. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7069734.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797084
re 159 yes I’d agree with you from what I hear of Annabel Goldie that she’s a fairly impressive politician. But why is she an MSP? Because of PR. She’d be a much less impressive politician - if she’d even managed to get elected at all - leading 5 or 6 Tories in the Scottish parliament if it had been elected by FPTP.
So MandyPandy was wrong to say tax rises will come next year. He is going against the grain according to ICM.
An article in Scotland on Sunday - Tories would delay cuts in Scotland by one year -
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/news/Tories-to-delay-cuts-for.6168741.jp
goodnight all.
re144 Christina
It could be argued that for the last 5 years that England has been ruled by a Party and a PM that it did not vote for! That it has had legislation forced on it by Welsh and Scottish Labour MPs who have been voting on purely English matters! A charge that cant be laid at the door of SNP or PC MPs!
The issue of what is a democratic mandate or what is not cant be so easily sidestepped! You sound as though you are argueing for a continuation of that system. A very real possibility if there is a hung parliament where the Tory Party has an increased representation from English constituencies but has insufficient MPs to have an overall majority! A very dangerous constitutional position if you believe in the Union!
Devolution has settled nothing! In fact it is starting to look like a dogs breakfast but there is no going back to the pre devolution days, the only way is forward to some renegotiation for much greater powers for Scotland and Wales! Powers that will allow them to try and restore some order to public finances, something that needs to be done at a UK level as a matter of economic urgency anyway!
159 ChristinaD
It’s interesting seeing another party in a position of perpetual opposition!
Mind you Annabel has taken to it like a duck to water (an aposite simile since she buys her bird food at the same Nature Reserve as we do!)
Always amusing to see her in the SP demanding increased public expenditure on a wide range of issues in Scotland, while pretending that she is simultaneously cuddling up to Dave’s policies. Isn’t opposition wonderful?
Taking our Trident back south will also entail relocating a number of Naval Establishments back south (as we can’t sail our nuclear subs up north to pick-up their Spearfishes). I have no problem with that or diverting the £5-billion infrastructure projects relating to the Astute+ SSBNs to England.
As for The Upper House, it’s replacement will either be a reformed Second Chamber or an English Parliament. Any Scottish representation in the former should be in proportion to population within the [decaying] Union and funded accordingly; if the latter route is chosen then 300-400 EMPs will be a darn-site cheaper for the English tax-payer when compared to it’s Scottish counter-parties. Win-win for us English!
107: Some speculation over at Guido:
http://order-order.com/2010/03/20/glorious-gloria-gets-it/#comment-497952
Caveats apply - but it would seem there is a (super)injunction.
164.ChrisA, sorry, no can do tonight. I have given my views opposing the PR system up here many times in the past. And what ever my political allegiances, I am more passionate about politics in general and seeing the best bespoke local representation what every their party colours.
RE167
I forgot to add Christina. Scottish Coservatives and English Conservatives are very different animals and there lays the dilemma for Scottish Tories. The values are almost mutually exclusive and have been so since Thatchers Days! I am suggesting as my mother has often suggested that the Scottsih Tories should should cut themselves loose from the English Tories! Something that despite devolution they have not been able to do!
And to think in the dim and distant past all the uproar cos a few Tory MP’s took some cash to ask a question in parliament. Compared to past 13 years now seems oh so minor!
by Oracle March 20th, 2010 at 10:29 pm
Truth is that to many the cash for questions so called scandal seemed minor at the time, involved small amounts, and for doing what an MP is supposed to do anyway. Which is asking questions in parliament. I remember thinking that this sort of thing must be common, and never quite saw what all the fuss was about. Are not Labour and Conservative MP’s constantly doing this sort of thing, on behalf of their respective Trades Unions or other corporate sponsors?
Having said that.
There was precious little evidence that Hamilton had indeed done anything wrong, or been offered or received any payment. What apparent evidence existed was wholly based on the word of a known habitual liar and gangster type criminal and that of two of his employees. However in this particular case the evidence would seem to be at worst compelling, or at best indicative of an open and shut case.
What is worse, if not infinitely so is that there seems to be the implication that these MP’s had done this sort of thing many times before.
Therefore these other payments should have shown up on their tax returns, and charged at the full net rate. MP’s expenses may be tax free, but payments, or indeed cash bribes for services rendered are most surely not. While adding insult to criminal conspiracy, the whole dirty deal would have been carried out during working hours, at OUR expense, when the MP should have been hard at work representing their constituents.
Come to think about it the first thing that Brown should have been done when the expenses scandal was apparently being dealt with was the ordering of a full tax investigation for all living current, and past MP’s, and top civil-servants.
The real reason why this did not and never would have happened is that it would have been top civil-servants that would have had to run the investigations. PM’s and MP’s would have simply threatened to have a tax investigation done on the them, and also top judges and law enforcement officers. In fact the establishments whole house of cards could well have de-constructed quicker then a 1940’s Nagasaki whore house.
167 IainM
It could indeed be argued that way - but only by someone who was totally ignorant of the actual election results in 2005. In England Labour won 286 seats, while the Tories won 194.
You were saying?
169. “Win-win for us English”
lol, one has got to love the naivety. And exactly how much would it cost the “English taxpayer” to replicate the facilities at Faslane and RNAD Coulport, so that the submarines and their missiles could….you know….function? I think the experts have already ruled out Portsmouth and Plymouth as suitable based for Trident and son of Trident, where else would you suggest building the facilities? And more importantly where would you get the money given you can’t even subsidise yourselves, far less us uppity jocks?
As if it is as easy as sailing a few dinghies from the Clyde to Portsmouth and parking them in a vacant mooring. Dear oh dear oh dear.
re 171 yes I know, but you have to admit that whatever your views on it - which are well known - that PR has played a major part in the revival of Tory fortunes north of the border. Without it the Tories might have won no seats in the 1999 election and I would suggest to you that that would have finished them.
OT Iain Dale on Stephen Nolan - interesting discussion re Catholic church at the moment.
18 surely we should lay man ure then?
172 IainM
I have often suggested to my Tory friends that they would be better to return to their pre 1965 position - but they appear to prefer oblivion.
177 - Are they letting him mention the Times story, or are R5 doing their censorship act again like last time he was on?
149 oldnat
Unless you take into account that for 57% of Scots their primary identity is Scots, and that only 9% describe themselves as Brit only, then you will continue to fail to understand politics here.
I would not be surprised if a similar proportion of people living in England would regard themselves as having a primary identity of English.
As you know I am not opposed to Scotland having more autonomy within the United Kingdom and would not seek to prevent Scotland gaining independence if that was the settled will of its people. I happen to believe that Scotland would lose more than it would gain by ceding from the UK, but that is just the opinion of a single Englishman and does not logically preclude a redefinition of the relationship between the political components of the Union.
If any argument has arisen today it is not because of a failure to understand “identity politics”. It is because of Alex Salmond’s opportunistic - but no doubt self-aware - posturing on the SNP being the best party in Scotland to avoid cuts imposed by implication from Westminster. I call it posturing not because it comes from a politician that identifies as being Scottish rather than English, but because it is politically dishonest.
It is especially dishonest in the case of the SNP given the party’s political goal of full independence: meaning that more than any of the unionist parties of in Scotland, the SNP should be preparing for economic sustainability and self-reliance. Salmond may have achieved power by means of blame transference but now he is in government he should be showing statesmanlike maturity and honesty.
And I say that as a broad supporter of the SNP and Salmond himself. OK, I would like them and him to be a bit more centre right but not so much as to lose JK to SLAB.
175: Grandstander @ 00:21
“I think the experts have already ruled out Portsmouth and Plymouth as suitable based for Trident and son of Trident”
Really? Do you have some evidence for this claim?
As both Portsmouth and Plymouth have hosted nuclear weapons in the recent past and both have been, and one still is, a submarine base I wonder on what basis these experts have reached their opinion, if indeed they have.
Please provide a source for your claim.
Lib Dems hoping for some extra magic
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1259513/Harry-lends-magic-Lib-Dems-campaign.html
183 - Has anybody told him they don’t back the legalisation of pot anymore?
GS, I a mentioned in the post there is £5billion allocated for infrastructure within the Trident-replacement budget. As for a location, the T&S boats used to dock happily at Devonport until the decision was made to shift them and their replacements to Faslane.
Without the relevant hydrographic information to hand I would assume that Devonport or Barrow/Sellafield would be suitable alternate locations. I seen some people suggest Gibraltar may be a useful location (I think it was at ARRSE) and I am sure that the Yanks would help us with their facilities at Norfolk and Ascension.
Ofcourse some of these locations may not be suitable. If the Scots wish to assert their sovereignty however we English will have to look elsewhere, but that is no concern of your countrymen.
As for funding, oldnat has posted recently about the precarious state of Scotland’s financial balance. [I have also linked related articles from the 'The Economist' in the past. If you are interested you should search the archives as I am not a spammer when it comes to making pertinent point.] Any contribution from Holyrood would go to Westminster, not England, and would be a pittance compared to the cost of maintaining the other parts of the Celtic-fringe.
182 Hurstllama
With pleasure. Step forward, “The United Kingdom, Nuclear Weapons and the Scottish Question”:-
http://cns.miis.edu/npr/pdfs/91walk.pdf
A most excellent read. It was written about 8 years ago.
Night all.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100030734/a-response-to-my-ukip-supporting-readers/ Another 48 hours of campaigning across my vast, soggy, Home Counties patch, with speeches at Amersham (Bucks), Pulborough (West Sussex) and Seaford (East Sussex), and I’m sticking to my prediction that David Cameron will win the election with a working majority. People are desperate to get rid of a government that has left our country diminished, our Treasury empty, our credit exhausted and our parliamentary system delegitimised.
It’s conceivable that, in some Northern cities, the LibDems will be the chief beneficiaries of the anti-Labour mood. In Scotland, for all I know, the Nats might stand to gain. But in most of the country, the alternative to Labour is the Conservative Party.
Seaford is a Ukippy town, and many of that party’s supporters came to my public meeting there this morning, which was also attended by the Conservative candidate for Lewes, Jason Sugarman. They were a well-behaved and courteous lot, the Ukippers, and it spoke well of them that they were prepared to come and listen to alternative points of view.
Of course, they kept asking me why I wouldn’t join them, the same question that is so often raised in these comment threads. (Indeed, some of the questioners may be the same people). Let me, again, give you my answer.
Malcolm Pearson, the UKIP leader, is a good man: a sincere, incorruptible, disinterested patriot. He was a loyal friend to me for more than a decade when he sat as a Tory, and I am determined that his change of party should not prejudice our friendship. Still, Malcolm won’t mind my saying that he has no chance of entering Downing Street on 7 May. There are only two possible Prime Ministers: David Cameron and Gordon Brown.
Voting UKIP in a place like Seaford means boosting the prospects of its Euro-fanatical LibDem MP, Norman Baker, who reneged on his promise of a referendum, and who argues that the EU “is central to the UK’s economic prosperity”. Voting UKIP, in Seaford as in many other constituencies, means putting a federalist into parliament. It risks prolonging the tenure of this incompetent, wastrel, cowardly Labour regime.
Readers of this blog know that David Cameron and I don’t agree about European integration. I want an in-or-out referendum, and returned to the backbenches to campaign for one. But David Cameron will be a million times better than Gordon Brown as Prime Minister.
To repeat: Labour has introduced 111 tax rises since 1997, taken a trillion pounds in additional taxation, and still left us with a Greek-level deficit: 12.6 per cent of GDP and rising. Of every four pounds Gordon Brown spends, one is borrowed. Our national debt is rising by nearly £6,000 a second. We can’t afford another five weeks of this, let alone another five years.
What I’d ideally like – and what I assume my UKIP readers also aspire to – is a situation where UKIP no longer needs to exist: where it can award itself a medal and retire with honour, job done. Obviously, we’re not at that point yet. But I worry that every activist who deserts the Tories for UKIP is retarding the prospects of a Euro-sceptic Conservative Party without taking his or her energies to an alternative party of government.
I realise that I won’t have convinced my UKIP critics with one short post. But I would urge you to ponder one thing. Eventually, the issue will have to be settled in a referendum. If we are to win that referendum, we shall need the support of people on the Left, people on the Right and people in the Centre. UKIP won’t win on its own. So when you come across people in other parties who believe in British independence, don’t snarl at them, or tell them that their support is worthless unless they join UKIP. Encourage them.
re174 oldnat
An ommision my part Nat - it should have read southern England! I should have also added that Scots and Welsh Labour MPs were voting in legislation that English Labour Rebels did not want! Indeed voting with the Tories on them!
If there is one of these anti-democratic super injunctions stopping the Mail publishing a story about Whelan it is disgraceful. If there is a reason for an injunction fine, impose one, but there is not reason for it to be secret.
Disgraceful not because I want the evil worm exposed for what he is, but because these injunctions are designed to stop the freedom of speech.
They might be relevant where children are concerned or national security but Whelan is neither of those. As was not the company dumping stuff in Africa which tried to stop even MPs in parliament asking questions and reporting the answers in the press.
The government is considering introducing electronic voting for British forces abroad amid concerns that thousands of soldiers will be left without a vote at the forthcoming general election.
Any new system, however, will not come into effect until after this year’s poll when weaknesses in the postal voting system threaten to disenfranchise many of the 9,000 troops serving in Afghanistan.
Electoral law stipulates that postal votes cannot be issued until the close of nominations 11 days before election date. They must be returned to constituencies by the close of polling to be valid.
The timing of this year’s election, widely expected to be on May 6, coincides with the change over of the British brigade in Helmand, a massive logistics exercise which threatens to delay postal services to troops.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7069942.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797084
181 Seth O. Logue
“I would not be surprised if a similar proportion of people living in England would regard themselves as having a primary identity of English.”
There is remarkably little evidence for that, however. The ESRC publication “National Identity and Constitutional Change in England” noted “A complicating factor arising from previous survey research is that in England many respondents have considerable difficulty in distinguishing ‘English’ from ‘British’ and tend to treat the two as interchangeable.”
Consequently, there doesn’t seem to have been any research which classifies English respondents in a similar fashion to the Scottish survey I quoted. The 2007-08 Citizenship Survey in England allowed multiple responses to identity, and produced 60% saying English, and 44% saying British. At best, therefore, only 16% described themselves as English not Brit.
185 Fluffy Thoughts
You misrepresent me. That is not acceptable.
I have pointed out that the per capita structural deficit in Scotland is equivalent to that of the UK.
We, however, are happy to excise the costs of post-imperial posturing and that would immediately reduce our structural deficit - while increasing yours, if you want to carry on pretending about your status in the world.
160 Grandstander
Sorry Seth but that just doesn’t wash.
My objection is not to you personally. Nor even to your arguments which, though I disagree with them, justifiably merit a more measured response than I gave.
It is using the expressions “teenybopper” and “Epic Fail” without making me laugh that irks. Also Tory bashers deserve paying back in kind.
But let’s look on the bright side. If I can discourse in a civilised manner with James Kelly, there’s hope for us yet.
What a shame Grandstander has gone off to bed, as the paper he cites as evidence for his claim that “the experts have already ruled out Portsmouth and Plymouth as suitable based for Trident and son of Trident” turns out to not be by experts and not rule out either.
What the paper, written by a pair of academics for the Non Proliferation Review (draw your own conclusion) says is that Plymouth is too built up for the storage and handling of things that go bang. Completely glossing over that until quite recently the dockyard used to house nuclear weapons and it still does deal with explosive items such a cruise missiles.
189: Some of the speculation at Guido did mention certain foreign powers, so perhaps national security is deemed an issue? See 170 for link.
oldnat: I think you need to revise your Venn Diagrammes and Set Theory.
Assuming 10% non-native, 60% and 44% within a 90% grouping implies that 46% see themselves as English-only, 30% British-only and 14% see themselves as both. Can you clarify your figures…?
OT, only a day and 4 threads later, here is my favourite Round the Horn moment. From the gander bag of Rambling Syd Rumpo…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAx6QSotyg8&feature=related
188 IainM
Were the North or South of England to decide that they had a different political identity, then they could, no doubt, achieve an equitable distribution of spend within England. London would object, of course.
Some of the speculation at Guido did mention certain foreign powers, so perhaps national security is deemed an issue? See 170 for link.
by It doesn’t add up… March 21st, 2010 at 12:49 am
Unless Charlie has been exposed as a spy and Brown is implicated simply taking cash from nasty regimes such a North Korea or Cuba for example would not be national security. Charlie might have bought a majority stake in the government but it still doesn’t make it national security.
Or rather it does for us but not for them.
Although isn’t there some injunction happy judge who throws the things around like confetti?
Initially I need to explain to certain posters on this site that their pompous attitudes often discourage others from posting.
Next, I’m canvassing in a KEY cumbrian seat, currently held by LD, tory vote solid, lab vote moving to LD, LD vote slightly moving tory. No doubt one of the pompous brigade will have comments.
Thank You for a superb site.
196 Fluffy Thoughts
Correction accepted.
However, this still does not provide a comparison with the Scots data due to the qualifier identified in the ESRC study - “A complicating factor arising from previous survey research is that in England many respondents have considerable difficulty in distinguishing ‘English’ from ‘British’ and tend to treat the two as interchangeable.”
Oldnat,
Any further thoughts about how and when the SNP will manage to persuade a majority of your fellow countrymen to vote for independence?
167 Plato
Whether one likes or hates Daniel Hannan, there will be few that doubt his ability to write extremely fine English prose.
re198 oldnat
That is the crux of the problem - London and the Stockbroker belt, it is just that my fellow English right wingers dont see it! They might know about financial derivatives and other things that none of us can use or eat but they are totally clueless about making things that are useful, practical or indeed what we can eat!London in more than one way is the most heavily subsidised part of the UK, fact. But they show no signs of wising up to that fact!
Two interesting bits from the Telegraph. Apparently, Labour are going to wheel out war starter, non-dom, and peace envoy failure Tony Blair to attack the Tories:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7489218/Election-2010-Tony-Blair-to-play-key-general-election-role.html
And in her first appearance, it appears as though Mrs. Clegg is a bitch:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/nick-clegg/7489719/Im-not-as-fortunate-as-Samantha-Cameron-says-Miriam-Clegg.html
201 HurstLlama
I’ve always believed that increased Scottish autonomy is a gradualist process.
If the UK can adjust to a position that Scots are happy with, then it may never happen.
If they are obdurate, then we may end up with something like the Velvet Divorce that I have referred to earlier.
It’s also a leap of faith to assume that the SNP would be the party to achieve independence! Down the line, it might well be that a Lab/LD alliance faced with the prospect of no significant role in Westminster might decide that Independence is their best prospect of power.
170 It just doesn’t add up…
Blair is said to have had a mid-life crush on Gloria. Guido can’t fault him for that, she was the best thing on GMTV. Hopefully we’ll be seeing a lot more of her…
Just what has Guido uncovered?
204. “And in her first appearance, it appears as though Mrs. Clegg is a bitch”
Hardly. Her directness is quite refreshing compared to the heavily-spun stuff from the other two. And she is Spanish.
203 IainM
It’s going to be really fascinating to see the post credit crunch economic data!
London was obviously the tax producing power house during the bubble years, but what is it’s position going to be now? Once the “non-attributable” component of public spending that is allocated to London (eg Olympics) is recalculated, will London actually turn out to be a net consumer of rather than a net contributor to public finances?
202. Believe me, Seth, when you’re in the ‘hate’ category, the last thing you find yourself weighing up is the quality of his prose style.
204,207. Miriam Clegg is permitted moderate cattiness under the ancient and respected rule of being excessively foxy.
@180177 - Are they letting him mention the Times story, or are R5 doing their censorship act again like last time he was on?
by Oracle March 21st, 2010 at 12:26 am
Sorry, got called away so missed the bit after the Catholic church, but it is being covered in current phone in.
“Mrs Clegg, a lawyer, said: “Well, listen, I don’t have the luxury of having a job that I can simply abandon for five weeks”
It’s called annual leave, love.
209 James Kelly
Good evening, James.
And here I was, only an hour or so earlier, going to say something very nice about you. I wisely desisted.
Hannan does write beautifully. He verges on lunacy at times, but never so far as to make me fall into the “hate” camp.
I much prefer maverick to grey politicians though in most cases I would stop short of preference for office.
“Her directness is quite refreshing compared to the heavily-spun stuff from the other two”
Oh, you poor naive soul…….
212 David
Were Mrs Clegg the wife of a prospective Prime Minister I would expect her employers to be more understanding.
Life is full of tough choices.
213. “Good evening, James.
And here I was, only an hour or so earlier, going to say something very nice about you. I wisely desisted.”
Good evening to you, Seth. And there was me, just twenty minutes ago, about to donate £700 to the charity of your choice. Spooky…
re 212 David, so your employer lets you take 5 weeks off all at once does he? Lucky you? Or perhaps more so if you need to take any more time off during the year
Quick preview of Marr.
*Unite strike “Lord Ashcroft never flies BA.”
*Julie Kirkbride offered a bung…
*If Ashcroft paid taxes on his worlwide earnings the BBC could cut the licence fee.
*Something about Ashcroft {TBC}
*Polls now point to hung parliament. Surely a Labour win is on the cards?
*Ashcroft gave nothing to sport relief the Toff git!
*Government figures for debt are so good everyone can have a super budget.
*Investigation by Lord Mandelson discovers Lord Ashcroft doesn’t even listen to the Asian network or 6 music!
They do seem to like tits in Ashfield; replacing a massive one with two massive ones.
216 James Kelly
So little?
214. “Oh, you poor naive soul…”
If the Lib Dems had a spin doctor worth their salt, do you really think they’d be priming Miriam to make comments like that? Probably Glenys Kinnock was the most political spouse of recent times, but I can’t remember her making digs about Norma Major or Denis Thatcher.
159
A good summary of the situation of the Scottish Tories. I am still optimistic that there will be around 3 Scottish Tory MPs after the next election but there may well be a drop in the overall Tory vote or little change. It is not realistic for any UK party to be dominant across the whole of the UK. The SW of England is heading towards a Labour free zone but no-one seems to talk about it as much as Scotland.
It seems to me that the Labour fightback has ground to a halt and that we are pretty much set for the election. The fact that the election timescale has been known about for many months before the actual announcement probably restricts the amnount of change in the next 6 weeks.
222. “I am still optimistic that there will be around 3 Scottish Tory MPs after the next election but there may well be a drop in the overall Tory vote or little change.”
I think the Scottish Tory vote will go up a little bit (it would be extraordinary if it didn’t given where they’re starting from), but your suggestion of three seats sounds about right.
221 James Kelly
Annabel Goldie is single. Bridget McConnell is a public figure in her own right. Moira Salmond is a private person. I know nothing about Nicol Stephen’s wife. Gail Sheridan we knew about for very different reasons!
How on earth did Scots manage to vote in 2007 without knowing whether the party leaders picked up their socks or not?
Times Leader..
MPs just can’t help going for the easy buck
The government, however, cannot convincingly distance itself from this. The original “cash for questions” investigation by this newspaper, 16 years ago, helped to hasten the end of a Conservative government plagued by sleaze, division and incompetence. History may be repeating itself.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article7069805.ece
176.ChrisA, no, PR didn’t revive Scottish Tories up here, it just gave that illusion over the last 10 years. If anything, it harmed us in the longer term and stopped us addressing the real problems at the grass root level. Our ‘results’ and subsequent seats in the Scottish Parliament have only confirmed my views of the current voting system. Its only when we start really gaining the seats in Holyrood or at Westminster FPTP in larger numbers that I know the party will have really restored its fortunes.
225 - And the bods who do the BBC news website…nadda…must be too busy throwing darts at their Ashcroft dartboard…or reading the Observer / Sunday Mirror…
Labour donor faces police inquiry into council deals
POLICE are this weekend considering launching a “cash for favours” investigation into one of Labour’s biggest donors after he was awarded public sector contracts worth up to £20m.
Strathclyde police confirmed they were consulting the prosecutor’s office in Scotland about allegations that Willie Haughey was unfairly awarded contracts while Steven Purcell was in charge of Glasgow city council.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7069783.ece
Good. About time, let’s see where it will lead.
221 James Kelly
Prime Minister’s wives haven’t all been shrinking violets. We have Margot Asquith to thank for the following:
Lloyd George could not see a belt without hitting below it.
There are some people that you cannot change, you must either swallow them whole or leave them alone.
It is easier to influence strong than weak characters in life.
The spirit of man is an inward flame; a lamp the world blows upon but never puts out.
If you have been sunned through and through like an apricot on a wall from your earliest days, you are oversensitive to any withdrawal of heat.
and of course her most famous retort to Jean Harlow, who pronounced Margot as ‘Margott’:
No, no, no: the ‘t’ is silent as in Harlow
re208
I have no doubt they will fiddle the figures Nat! Especially as London will always be a key political battleground!
224. We saw quite a bit of Nicol Stephen’s family in the PEBs, Oldnat, but I can understand how it might have slipped your mind! In a strange way, I always think it looks quite good when Salmond isn’t joined by his wife at the end of a conference speech - it’s become such a cliché over the years.
But your broader point is right - I had no idea Annabel Goldie was single, I don’t know anything about Iain Gray or Tavish Scott’s wives, I didn’t have a clue what Moira Salmond looked like until seventeen years after her husband first became party leader…it just doesn’t seem to be as big a deal for us.
190.Plato, that is pretty shocking news to be honest, and totally unforgivable in light of the fact that the government were under the spotlight for making it too difficult for the soldiers to vote in 2005. This ‘plan’ to put some sort of new system in place after the GE is a totally con, and as disgusting as promising new equipment that will not be in operation for years to come.
Is it worth buying Nokia stock asap? Sales on the way up…Downing Street purchasing manager set to replace every phone in the building,
228 kristin
Thanks for that! I’ve posted that link on the Beeb politics site - in the full expectation that they will not publish it!
@233 - lol why do you bother?
@234 - read the Times comments, I’m suprised one of them was published.
Chris A @111: “If we go with this UNS logic it means that the Tories can perhaps win a majority once in the next 70 years. That is such a ludicrous proposition that it’s amazing that there are so many proponents on UNS out there.”
Intriguingly backwards logic there.
But the premise is wrong:
1) There’s no reason why the arrangement of votes that stands right now should still be the case in 70 years. There’s nothing intrinsically anti-Tory about UNS; It’s just that various factors happen to line up right now against them. If we still have FPTP in 30 years, the position may be reversed. Who knows? What we do know that it’s unusual for a party to beat UNS by a huge amount in a single election.
2) If you don’t get a switch of government, the pressure for one tends to build up, so if we imagine a world where the Tories and Labour still hold most seats, but the the Tories haven’t formed a government for donkey’s years, there’s likely to be a point where they beat 40-something % in vote share and get an 11%+ lead.
That said, there’s also no reason why the system shouldn’t stop giving one party an overall majority. If the LibDems can protect their vote share and ratchet up the seats they hold a bit over the next couple of elections, it would be quite feasible that they could form a permanent blocking minority under FPTP, and Britain would have permanent coalition government, as happens in most countries in the world. Nothing ludicrous about it.
I see that Danial Hannan has been speaking from on high on that self promoted pulpit of his building. For a minute there I thought that this was the leader of a party, then I realised it was Hannan.
235.Kristin, got a link to the Times thread?
235 Kristin
I see what you mean! Part of that comment is common knowledge, but the rest!!!
@238 - it at 228 Christina
have i missed something ? How comes there are references to a super injunction re Whelan ?
238.Sorry, ignore, found it. I do wonder if we are all jumping the gun a bit here though. I don’t think that we get the kind of leaking from police sources if there is an investigation ongoing, and more importantly, Scottish Law pretty much runs a tight ship on media coverage as well. On the other hand, we have anomalies whereby we all knew which Labour Minister’s son was in trouble up in Scotland when it was prevented from being disclosed by the media in England.
241.Kristin, check out Charlie Whelan’s twitters over the last 24 hours, highly amusing. Appears the only fish he caught in the Spey this weekend was a Daily Mail reporter.
They are obviously after some sort of story, and an earlier comment in the Guido thread indicated that it might have been prevented from being published. I did think it was odd that they went on a story about those Labour MP’s being approached by a bogus Lobby firm. Fair enough to see the Times doing so in conjunction with the C4 Despatches programme, it looked to me like a last minute filler for the MoS though.
242 ChristinaD
I think you have to divide the Times story into 2 separate bits.
1. Police confirm that they are consulting with the fiscal. That’s normal practice.
2. Leaked documents from within the City Council which the Times has got hold of and are running with.
SNP Tactical Voting -
Alex Salmond’s Conference Speech
“The section embodied by the line “The wrong cuts at the wrong time - that is their foolish agenda” doesn’t sit too easily with me. We need to reduce spending, we need to cut the considerable flab from the public sector and it is in Scotland that that sector is at its most wobbly. Any leader who doesn’t face up to these realities is surely at least partly guilty of a dereliction of duty.
As posturing for fiscal autonomy I have no doubt that fierce opposition to a reduction in Holyrood’s block grant will be effective but it may not be enough to force Cameron’s hand to act and that’s when problems can begin.
If the Barnett formula is merely tinkered with rather than abolished then the SNP will have to change tack very quickly. Cuts, as the EU has pointed out clearly this past week, are already overdue. It would be foolish for Salmond to be seen to be last to face up to that reality.”
I would also add that we are seeing very large cuts to public services right now across Scotland, and that would certainly have weakened Salmond’s rhetoric about being a defender of cuts to our block grant from Westminster.
242 ChristinaD
Another factor.
This story only appears to be in the English edition.
245.That should have been public sector cuts at council level across Scotland. Our councils are facing big deficits right now that have to be dealt with.
Nytol
246.Oldnat, I noticed that. I been wondering about the level of coverage, or lack of it up here since the story broke. And this is the only conclusion that I can draw, otherwise our media, particularly the political coverage is very broken indeed. I still find it amazing that we don’t even have the whereabouts confirmed here or abroad of the man running Glasgow council until just a few weeks ago. Incredible.
237
No Christina, Dan is not the leader of the party. He is just the man who should be.
GIN as we’re enjoying Labours discomfort through old socialist anthems we hadn’t better forget THE leftie anthem of all;
Then raise the scarlet standard high.
Within its shade we’ll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We’ll keep the red flag flying here.
That’s the Labour Party anthem. If you want a lefty anthem, try the Internationale.
Asked if he wanted to see a hung parliament, Lord Pearson replied: “Yes, absolutely.”
So he doesn’t want UKIP to win the general election then? Okey-dokey, no problemo. I’m sure we will be happy to not vote for them then.
SeanT If Labour were led by ANYONE other than Gordon Brown, they could now look comfortably ahead to a fourth term in power.
Don’t be such a siliband.
The Screaming Eagles Two South Wales miners have been jailed for life for the murder of taxi driver David Wilkie during the miners’ strike last November.
To be fair, they later had their convictions reduced to manslaughter on the grounds that they were too stupid to realise that dropping a huge concrete block onto a car from 40 feet up might hurt someone.
coldstone Hey SeanT is Cornish he can’t have a relationship with a donkey unless its a blood relative.
But it is a blood relative - you only have to go back a few tens of millions of years to find a common ancestor.
If the BBC website is anything to go by, it doesn’t look like the BBC are going to cover the Labour sleaze story then.
@251 Oracle, it was mentioned in passing on News 24 when they rushed through newspaper headlines. Marr will be interesting.
252 - The usual, flash the front page, quickly moving on….running out of time….spent 5 mins of some light hearted survey based story…
Er, so is it legal for a former minister to influence government policy in exchange for personal bribes? It seems like the kind of thing that shouldn’t be.
In Oz, the Tories in South Australia had a huge 7% swing and after postals won 42-37 in percentage terms.
Under PR however they got smashed, and Labour still have an outright majority of seats.
No wonder Brown loves this kind of system.
In Tasmania which also voted yesterday, and where the Tories again had the most votes they have an even weirder quota preference system so that means a hung parliament is inevitable.
We will see if the tree hugging Greens who toned down their environmental gibberish (as too many people work in the forestry indistry ther )form a government as they promised they would if the hated “Tories” had the most votes….. Many tactical votes from Tories to kepp labour out this time, so let us see if the third parry fence sirting trick was an honest one.
(Not to complicate things, but the Tories here are actually called Liberals and the real Liberals went defunct as the Democrats 5 to 10 years ago.)
redcliffe62, Wikipedia says the South Australia House is AV, not PR. Is that what you meant, or are you talking about another election?
And do they have that crazy Australian twist where if you don’t state a second preference, the party that got your first preference gets to choose it for you?
254…I am pleased to see the BBC website at 0845h is running the Byers story, albeit under the headline of a labour pledge to clean up…etc, etc. Like 254, I expected today to be “a good day to hide bad news……) Byers has form for this sort of stuff from Railtrack days, I seem to remember. But at least the BBC maybe taking on board the criticism of their labour bias after reaction to the shameful suppression of Brown’s PMQ admission about defence budget and the continual canard of Ashcroft. It will be interesting to see what Jackie Ashley’s better half does with it after 0900h